Latest / UK Column Radio / They Are Brutal- Whistleblower Leah Summers Exposes Gloucester Social Services

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They Are Brutal- Whistleblower Leah Summers Exposes Gloucester Social Services · UK Column Radio

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Good morning and welcome to our UK column viewers and
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: listeners wherever you are in the world. I'm delighted to
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: say that we've got a fantastic day here in the
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: South of England. We've got blue sky and we've got
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: water wall sunshine and that always makes a big difference.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Today I'm joined by a lady called Leah Summers. She's
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: a family group conference coordinator. I had to look at
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: my piece of paper to make sure I got that right.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Leah is going to be telling us about her experiences
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: working alongside social services and child protection issues. We had
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: a conversation on the telephone and we covered some really
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: interesting subjects. She's got some fantastic information which he wants
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: to share and I'm very excited about this because essentially
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: this is yet another professional person who is starting to
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: take the lid off some of the really terrible things
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: that are going on within the social services system. So Leah,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: welcome to UK, Colm, and thank you very much for
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: joining me this morning.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for speaking with me. It's wonderful.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: It's a pleasure. Now. I've been putting out videos actually
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: for a lot of years talking about families that have
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: had problems with social services. Some of those stories really
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: very harrowing. Children have been taken from families under what
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: the evidence seems to show is really false pretenses. We've
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: sometimes had children that have taken away from a good
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: parent and put in the custody of somebody who's been
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: a all parent or an abusive parent, and some of
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: the stories that parents tell are very difficult for the
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: average person to really believe because many people think this
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: just can't be happening. But it is happening.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: It absolutely is. Yeah, I was just agreeing with you.
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  Speaker 1: Alongside those stories, The key thing I want to stress
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: is that we do know that there are many people
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: inside Social Services as an organization who are unhappy with
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: what's happening, and they are working for the good. Site
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: and UK column has done two particularly valuable interviews with
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: social services whistleblowers. One was a lady called Carol Woods,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: and that was about eight years ago. Carol spoke out
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: about a number of things, including what she regarded as
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: the very poor treatment of babies and families with very young,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: very young babies, newborn babies, and more recently, we did
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: an interview with Emma Aaron and her story particularly pertinent
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: because trying to protect a young boy from abuse and
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: doing all the right things as a professional social worker should,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: she eventually ended up being hounded by the police and
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: then even got to the stage where her own social
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: services team turned up on her doorstep asking her questions
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: about her own daughter, and clearly that was an attempt
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: at intimidation. So before we get going, I just want
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: to stress that whilst we've got a large number of
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: parents coming forward with these stories about about very bad
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: things happening in social services, we've also got people inside
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: the system who are clearly good people. And I'm going
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: to say Lea, I'd like to put you in that
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: category because you said that you were very keen to
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: speak out. So set the scene. What's been happening and
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: why have you come to the UK column?
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Okay? So I was employed by Gloucestershire County Council in
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty as a family group conference coordinator. At that
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: point I had been a foster care with them since
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. I thoroughly enjoyed the job. The role itself
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: is a wonderful role, really really valuable role. It brings
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: in external family members to do a wrap around plan
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: of support to support the child and their family with
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: things that might be going a bit away in their lives,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: and the aim is to keep the child out of
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: the care system. So it's a very valuable role. In
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: July of twenty twenty three, I was met with a
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: very tricky situation. I had been working with a heavily
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: pregnant mother and the social worker, the children's social worker,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: had multiple red flags about her behavior and the things
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: that were going on. I was already working with the
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: family when this social worker became involved, and to say
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: she was like a bull in a china shop is
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: to put it mildly. She just came in and wanted
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: to remove the baby at birth. I couldn't gauge the
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: reasons as to why, what the concerns were. What was
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: it that the social worker was concerned about. Why did
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: she want to remove the child at birth? I never
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: got that information, even though I escalated it to my management,
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  Speaker 2: and nothing was revealed to us. In the July, I
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: received from the mother a TikTok video from the social
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: worker's personal account, which was open to the public, and
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: she was glorifying pedophilia. At that point, I was absolutely devastated.
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  Speaker 2: I was shocked, and when I went into the office
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  Speaker 2: to whistle blow, I was promptly told that I wasn't
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: whistle blowing. I stressed that I wanted to whistle blow,
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  Speaker 2: but my manager said, no, you're not whistle blowing. It
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: then kind of went into some sort of chaos, and
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  Speaker 2: I was sat down and spoken to about how I
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: struggle with poor social work, how I can't fight the
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: system from the inside, even though I had never at
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: that point indicated that i'd wanted to, and I was
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: told that I should walk away from my role. She
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: also said to me that I should go and see
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: her because she can help me to do that.
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  Speaker 1: That is truly incredible in one way, but not surprising
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: in another, because I've heard about this sort of approach
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: before when people try and do the right things. Can
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: we set the scene a little bit lea, just explain
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  Speaker 1: how your role as a coordinator sits alongside social services
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: and child protection? Can you do that for us?
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  Speaker 2: We're meant to be independent from social services, but we
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: sit in the Children's services umbrella, so we're in the
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: same bracket as Families First, Children's Social Workers, child Protection
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: FGC service. We all sit under the same umbrella within
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: children's services employed by the local authority.
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  Speaker 1: Right, okay, and are we allowed to say which are
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: the local authorities?
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  Speaker 2: This is yeah, I've been I've been trying to whistle
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: blow for eighteen months now and I'm not quiet about it.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I worked for Gloucestershire County Council.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, thank you very much for that. So you see
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: an area of ptearticular concern with a particular social worker.
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  Speaker 1: So was this an isolated incident that caused you to
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: speak out or was this one of a number of
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: It was.
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  Speaker 2: One of a number. It's probably one of the worst
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: having had seen this TikTok video and her whole presentation
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: throughout and her almost desperate need or want to remove
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: this child. But in my whole time as an FGC coordinator,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: you know, my manager was right. I did struggle with
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: poor social work. I saw a lot of things. Yes,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: I saw a lot of things, and I actually wanted
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: to whistle blow about twelve months before that. I didn't
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: have anything like the evidence that I needed to be
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: able to present, like I could have expressed my views
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: on a situation, whereas with this I actually had evidence
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: where I could go in and actually whistle blow, But
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: my intention has always been to publicly whistle blow because
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: I believe the public have a right to know what's
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: going on within this service. And I also feel that
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: children and families need a voice because they're not being heard.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, and how long have you actually worked in that role?
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Three years I was in the FGC service. I'm no
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: longer in that service. I resigned in October of twenty
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: twenty three under constructive dismissal and I started a tribunal
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: process where I was going to take them to court
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: for whistleblowing, detriment and constructive dismissal. Pretty years to that,
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  Speaker 2: I was a foster carer for them. So I have
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: actually worked with Gloucestershire County Council's Children's Services and Fostering
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  Speaker 2: Service since twenty seventeen.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Right, that's extremely interestingly because obviously that gives you experience,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: if you like, both sides of the coin. So you've
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: been fostering children that need fostering because they need to
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: be living and looked after in a loving family location.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: So you've experienced that, and you then also experienced social
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: services dealing with families themselves so you try and raise
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: this issue and essentially they tell you you can't whistle blow,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: which is seems to me that's directly contrary to the
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: whistle blowing law. But what do you do when they
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: attempt to silence you.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I was actually at that point, I was quite distressed.
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  Speaker 2: I was very upset the whole situation with with the family.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: For the couple of months that I'd been working with
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: mum and working with this social worker, I had so
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: many concerns. There was so much that was going on,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: and I'd tried to raise it with my management multiple times,
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  Speaker 2: and I just kept being told that I was getting
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: too involved, that I wasn't being impartial, that the mum
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: has clearly learned that she can trust you, which is
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: why she's always ringing you. And at that point I
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: did feel like I was the only protective professional in
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: that mother's life, and I was deeply concerned about why
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: the social worker wanted to remove the baby in the
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: manner that she did, especially as we were involved and
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: looking at ways in which the mother could be supported
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: to keep the child at home. So I became very
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: very upset, and I kind of think I went into
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: a little bit of shock. I did anticipate when I
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: got the video that I know how whistleblowers are treated
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: is quite widely known, isn't it how whistle blowers can
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: be treated. So I highly anticipated that it wasn't going
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: to be a positive experience. And the following day I
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: went off sec.
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  Speaker 1: Leah, you said something very significant there for me, which
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: is is that they they said to you more or less,
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  Speaker 1: the problem is that the mother trusts you and therefore
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: she's phoning you. But surely for the average person, you
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: would expect social workers who were doing a good job.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I know you were not working directly in a social
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: worker role, but we use that expression. You would expect
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: families to trust the professionals that have come alongside to
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  Speaker 1: help support them. So I find that a very revealing
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  Speaker 1: statement that you should be chastised for actually demonstrating that
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  Speaker 1: you have the ability to win the trust of a family,
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  Speaker 1: because it would need that trust to work with them properly.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely with the person that said those things to me,
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  Speaker 2: I feel that there was a lot of fear. There
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: was a lot of fear in my team, A lot
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: of fear in my team, and I think because I
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: had been quite vocal in the past, when I was
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: working with what I believe to be an incompetent or
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: corrupt social worker, I would be quite vocal about it
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: in the office because I do believe that families need
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: a voice, and it needs to come from people like myself.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Whilst we're in the system. We need to challenge the
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: system where we see the failings rather than ignore them.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: But there was definitely a lot of fear in my team.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: So I don't want that specific person to feel targeted
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: by what I'm saying, because I kind of understand the fear.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, And that again is a very significant point that
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: you have if we take it as a sort of
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: black and white position. We have people that have engaged
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: in a professional career in order to do some really
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: special work, which is to work alongside families that I've
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: got problems that need help, and yet that those professionals
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: are operating in an environment of fear. That's a pretty
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: amazing statement. And you're saying that, and I've heard this,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I've heard this from I'm going to say all other
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: areas of the country that within the system there is
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: not a a relaxed, friendly professional atmosphere to the provision
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: of these services. It's very, very tightly controlled. And one
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: of the things that I've really paid attention to with
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: mum sometimes dads that I'm talking to is that they
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: say to me that if they were having problems in
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: their particular circumstances and dealing with social services, if a
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: social worker appeared who started to do the right things,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: was nice to them, did build up trust and a rapport,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: and started to argue the family's case in an appropriate way.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: This is not mum and dad over and above the children.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: This is trying to work with the parents and the
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: children as a unit. Those individuals were removed from the case.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: They were taken off the case.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, I've seen it. I've experienced it with the the
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: case in question. I experienced that you will find families
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: have multiple social workers within a very short space of time.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: And the mother that I was working with in this situation,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: she had three social workers within the space of about
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: a month. The second social worker that came in was
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: wanting to give this mother a chance. I had a
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: telephone conversation with her and she said to me. Her
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: words were, do you see in this mum what they
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: all say about her? Because I don't and I want
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: to give her a chance. And I agreed with her.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: I said, no, I don't see what they're saying about her.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: In fact, I find her to be very pleasant to
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: work with. Let's get let's do this family group conference.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: It will be really beneficial for her. Within a matter
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: of days, the social worker had left and we had
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: the new social worker who came in likable in a
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: china shop. I didn't witness this myself, but the mother
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: rang me and said that the social worker had arrived
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: with the new social worker and had just said, this
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: is your new social worker. I can't do this anymore, Lea.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: The other thing that's put across to me very strongly
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: by parents is that it's a feeling that once they've
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: got involved with a social services team, it's like they're
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: locked into a system from which there's no escape.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Can be like that, yes, yeah.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Whereas a lot of them would would be thinking, okay,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: we've got problems and we recognize that, but we are
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: trying to work with the social services team, they quickly
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: find that they can do nothing right.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I've experienced that as well. I have a palithol
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: of stories that I could share, and it would take
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: us multiple interviews. But everything you say, I can, yeah,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I've seen it all.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'll keep putting some of these points to you
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: because I am not the professional. I'm somebody who came
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: in and started to learn this by families contacting me
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: and telling the information and sharing a lot of court
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: documents with me.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Professional, I'd like to confirm that it absolutely does happen.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: This is exactly how it is.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: So do you believe, Leah that social services are in
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: some places they are doing their job and we recognize that,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: and there are children that need to be taken away
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: from their families placed in a better environment. The message
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: which is coming to me day after day, and in
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: the last twenty four hours I've taken another two calls,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: is that children are being targeted. There's a focus on
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: particular children. Social services get involved with the family and
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: then they create their own evidence risk of future emotional
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: harm in order to take those children away from the parents.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Is that a story or do you think this is
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: what is actually taking place.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: It's actually happening absolutely in Gloucester. I have on this journey,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: I have come across even more stories from members of
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: the public, not ones that I've worked with, and it
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: is incredible how many children are being removed unnecessarily and
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: how many children who actually really could do with that
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: provision are being left at home.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: We've got a, we'll say, a developing track record that
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: social services child protection teams are actually doing the exact
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: opposite of what everybody believes they're there for and what
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: they would be doing. They do the opposite.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they are, they are. There are some good social workers.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I don't want to sit here and say every single
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: social worker is awful. I've worked with some good ones,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: but they are very far and few between, and they
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: are up against a system that I believe is broken
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: by design.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's a very important point, and I from the
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: outside looking in, I would absolutely agree with you. This
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: is the case that the system has been has been
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: deliberately broken and deliberately refocused so that it's not a
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: supportive system. It's actually a system which is targeting families.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Yesterday I spent quite a lot of the day editing.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: It was to produce a relatively short video clip of
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: about six minutes. I had about thirty minutes of material
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: to work with. And what was that material? That was
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: phone video? Which a mother had taken of children being
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: taken away. Well, a grandmother had taken of the young
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: children being taken away from her daughter. So in a
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: room there were social workers, there were at the end
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: of the day about seven police and I found editing
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: that clip so difficult that at one point I had
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to take myself away and go and get a cup
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: of coffee. Was appalling. And one of the reasons it
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: was so emotional was that I knew the depth of
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the story, which was that those children who'd been with
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: a perfectly loving mother and grandmother were taken away by
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: the police and social services. This happened up in Scotland
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: and they were moved down into the Midlands where they
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: were given to the estranged and abusive father. So the
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: children were taken away from the loving home and they
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: were given to a home where at best you could
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: say the children were not going to have a pleasant
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: environment due to the previous actions of the actual birth father.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: That is the sort of material that is being presented
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: to me, and that is the material where you start
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: to question what are social services actually doing. Are they
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: helping the families or are they doing something else?
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: They're doing something else they're absolutely doing something else. I
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: have other stories. I have other parents that have contacted
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: me with very, very similar circumstances. This isn't just a
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: small problem. This is a systemic problem that is up
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: and down the country. We have to question their motives.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Why are they doing this?
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Initially, if I'll respond to that when learely, I believe
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: the incentive was money, on the basis that once a
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: local authority had eng engaged with the family, and particularly
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: if they could actually take the child away from the family,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: huge amounts of money he started to change hands. Because
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: this is a very crude calculation, but nevertheless it focuses mine.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: So if you look at the number of professionals who
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: get involved with a family court case, so of course
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: you got the judge and all the legal team being paid,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: but then you also have usually a psychiatrist or a
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: psychologist involved, You have caf gas, you can have other
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: particular professionals. If you add up all of their professional fees,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: the rough cost or the rough amount of money that
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: circulates for a child protection court case is about a
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: quarter of a million pound. And then if you say, well,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: at the moment, I believe that there's about seventy five
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: thousand looked after children. If you get your calculator out
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: and you multify seventy five thousand quarter of a million,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: you are into a multi billion pound industry before anything
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: else has happened. And for example, children with special needs,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: and particularly serious special needs, their placement costs can run
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: into multiple thousand pounds a week. These are huge amounts money.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: But I used to think it was the money. But
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: as time went on and you saw this business, that
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: what they were doing seemed to be one hundred and
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: eighty degrees out with what they should be doing. Instead
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: of supporting families to keep the family together, they seem
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: to work to break the families up. I began to
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: feel that an agenda coming to the surface, not everybody
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: involved in it, but coming to the surface, is that
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: their intent was to break the families up.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: I do think it is about money, There's no two
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: ways about that. It is about money. But I do
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: believe they are gaining something by causing people harm other
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: than just money. There is something more nefarious going on.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I'm sure of it.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: You mentioned two things to be in the telephone call.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: One was you use the expression brutal, which I quickly
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: picked up on because you described seeing actions not real
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: social workers, but as being absolutely brutal. And you also
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: described some of some of the social worker professionals whose
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: behavior was i'll say cold and detached. And you would
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: notice this tell us a little bit more about that they.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Just lack empathy. They've got no empathy. I would have
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: social workers laughing at me about circumstances going on within families.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: I worked with one mother in particular. I can't say
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: too much. I don't have consent to share her story,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: but the social workers were so down on her. They
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: just didn't have any faith in her. And I did.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: I knew that she could achieve what she needed to achieve,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: and she did. She was amazing. She worked so hard,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: she did every single thing Social care asked of her.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: And then I would be on the phone and they'd
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: be like, she's not going to do this, She's not
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: going to cope, she's not going to manage this. It
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: was awful. It was almost like this gossip culture of
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: how they can sit around and run families down, like
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: talk badly about them, like we don't have no faith,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: They're not going.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: To do it.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Look at their history and that's another thing they pick
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: and choose, Like they'll they'll look at one family they'll
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: be like, we need to consider the history, and then
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: they'll be like another family, and you will try to
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: identify something that's crucial within their history and they'll go, no, no, no,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: we can't use that. That's historical. So they pick and
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: choose how they how they do things. Sometimes it's in
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: their benefit. If it's in their benefit, they'll use it.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: If it's not, then no, no, that's no good.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you for that. I've also had people telling me
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I'll call them strange stories, but there's stories to do
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: with about the training of the social workers themselves. And
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: one particular one which I've never forgotten. This was from
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: a mother lives down in the south of England, but
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: her daughter had signed on to a social services degree
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: course as far as I remember, and one weekend the
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: girl had come home from university and she'd been studying,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: being in the dining room and lots of papers and
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: books and she was working hard. Then she decided to
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: go out and her mother saw on the table books
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: with what she described as appalling sexual material, and she
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: found it really disturbing and didn't quite understand what was
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: going on. So when the daughter came back, she said
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: to the daughter, I sort of saw these images on
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: those books of yours on the table, and what's that about.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: And the girl said, oh, we have to look at
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: that material in order to understand the people we're dealing with.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: And the mother was incredibly distressed. But what came into
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: my head was that actually her daughter was being groomed
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: effectively in the course to desensitize her to material which
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: actually she should have been a naturally abhorrent at. And
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: then somebody else told me about somebody going on a
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: course and actually the first words of the professor whilst
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: you will be destroying people's lives. And you say, okay,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: those are two anecdotal stories, but I know that people
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: that produce that information, and you ask the question, so,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: what is actually going on in the course itself? Are
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: good people being put through a training process which is
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: actually reframing the way they think so that ultimately they
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: become cold?
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, I believe so, I believe so. I think it
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: also takes a certain type of person. I think narcissism
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: is rife in social care. These people don't care, I
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: have questioned, so many times like how can they behave
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: like this and then go home as if nothing has
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: happened during their day and go to sleep at night
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: like I just I can't understand how. So I feel like, yes,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: these people are being indoctrinated into certain ways of being,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: but I also believe that there is a there has
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: to come from the person themselves as well, because there's
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: no way I could do that. But that's what you see.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: You see good social workers leave they can't do it.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I've heard of many social workers that have left Blotchester
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: County Council because they don't like the way in which
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: they work and it isn't you know there are social
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: workers that are bullet bullet horrifically. So yeah, I think
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: it takes a certain type of person actually that goes
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: in with the aim of gaining power and control over these.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: People, and we could we could reinforce that by we'll say,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: making the suggestion that that people who have got incorrect
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: or inappropriate ideas about what they want around families and
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: children go in to a system where actually they're able
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: to apply their trade.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: M m mm hmmm. It's I suppose it's easy access
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: for abusers to work with vulnerable people.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Yes. One of the other things that I've found particularly disturbing,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: which a lot of people don't know, is and you
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: correct me here if I'm not correct in respect of
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: certainly Gloucester Gloucestershire Council, but essentially social services departments within
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: the local authority act as a law and to themselves.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: So not even elected members in the council, even if
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: a member has a specific allocated responsibility for child protection,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: not even those elected members can get access to the
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: family court cases that their own social work teams are
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: dealing with. So what I'm saying is that it's like
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: a closed door and there's no dependent access an assessment
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: to what these teams are doing.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: That wouldn't surprise me. I couldn't. I can't speak about
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Gloucester County Council's actual counselors. I don't know, but that
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: wouldn't surprise me at all.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: So you've blown the whistle. Where do you stand now
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: with relations with the council? Have you been completely ostracized?
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Are you clear of it?
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I am clear of it now, which is why I'm
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: able to approach the press and really start whistle blowing publicly.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: It's been a long journey. When that happened in July,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: I instantly knew that I'd lost my job. I knew
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: I was no longer safe in my role. I didn't
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: trust my management team anymore. So the following day, I
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: called the doctor and I explained everything to them, and
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: they agreed to give me a sick note for two
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: months with stress at work. They detailed everything that I'd
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: said on my records, so everything about the whistle blowing
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: is now on my medical records as well, and I
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: went off sick for two months. I then I did it. Initially,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: I asked for a little bit of a break, just
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: to I didn't know what was going to do. I
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: was actually really quite anxious, so I asked for a
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: little bit of space. But I wasn't really granted that
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: I was put under undue pressure an occupational health appointment. Initially,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't want the appointment. They're not they're not worth that,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: They're not that good. Even my manager at the time
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: would say to you, occupational health appointments and are wordless.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: But I'd spoken with the solicitor at this point and
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: they had suggested that I go ahead with the appointment,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: so that I could get my say on record, so
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: I did agree. My manager then wrote the referral and
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: sent it to me to have a look at before
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: the referral was actually sent in, and I was horrified
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: with what I was reading, absolutely horrified. They'd pretty much
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: neglected the actual circumstances of what had happened on that day,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: minimized it, barely barely spoke about it, and they went
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: right back to the moment that I was first employed.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: And there was so much stuff in there that I'm like,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't even know what they're talking about here,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Like she would say, I was concerned at this situation
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: with this family. When Leah presented in this manner, I
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: just could not believe what I was reading. And right
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: at the end she basically indicated that I was a
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: safeguarding risk to children.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: So, without any names, who compiled that report, Aline manager
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: effectively my manager, And what you are describing is what
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: was obviously a very carefully constructed report which was designed
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: to undermine your professional performance with the council.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: It was proof to me when I said I knew
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: that I'd already lost my job. Once I received that,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: I knew it was confirmation I have lost my job.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: They are gone to force me out. I am now
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: a problem because I have highlighted an issue with a
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: social worker. She actually rang me up to go through
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: the referral. We didn't actually speak a lot about it.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: She refused to talk about it on the phone. She
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: wanted to see me in person. That was the only
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: way she was willing to go through the document with me.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: And I said to her, I don't want to see you.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: We can talk about this over the phone. I said
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: that I was horrified. We started to talk about the
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: stuff that had happened. She denied it, and then she
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: put the phone down on me, saying she was going
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: to escalate it to HR. I again was very very anxious, thinking,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, what is going What's going to happen next.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: I actually contacted HR myself, who were useless. HR only
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: there to protect the county councils policies and procedures, their reputation.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: That is the only reason they're there. They are not
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: there for the employee. They were useless. I was directed
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: to my service manager. I went and I approached my
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: service manager via email, and from that moment on that
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: at that point, we're in early August of twenty twenty three,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: and from that moment on for three months, I battled
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: them internally. I decided that I. Initially I was going
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: to go ahead with a grievance, but my former manager
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: has had multiple a grievances against her and she always wins.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: And I've seen her behavior. She isn't a pleasant manager.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: She's very passive aggressive. She talks about I need to
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: take care of your well being. She knows what to say,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I need to take care of your well being, But
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: underlying she's really passive aggressive, and she had bullied multiple
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: members of my team. I'd seen it. I'd seen their
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: high levels of anxiety within the team, high levels of
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: sickness within the team. So I knew that agree event
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: was fruitless. So I decided to not do that, and
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: I just started to make us stand. I said that
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: I wanted to find a resolution, a resolution that would
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: suit us all, and I was very open with them.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I told them I still intend to whistle blow. I
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: want to whistle blow, but I want to whistle blow publicly.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Will you support me to do that. Everything that I
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: tried was ignored, it was blanked. I was highlighting the
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: failures within the service. I was given case studies with
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: families permission. I was trying to promote positive change. How
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: can we promote positive change for staff and families? It
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: was met on deaf years. I was blanked. I was
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: getting responses, but they weren't. I still have all the emails.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: They were robotic responses. They were not answering my questions.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: They were not confirming or denying whether they were going
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: to support me to whistleblow. They were just blanking it entirely.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: When I'm sending them in examples of the failings and
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: the things that are happening within families, it was being
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: blanked and ignored. In the end, I was allowed to
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: send a full page letter to the Director of Children's Services,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: which I did. I sent her very lengthy letter. It
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: was ignored. It was completely ignored. I had warned them
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: in a positive manner that I was going to take
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: them to court, but that I didn't want to take
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: them to court, that I wanted to find a resolution,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: that I want to protect people. I don't want this
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: to explode, but I will take it to court if
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: we don't find this resolution. We didn't find a resolution,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: so on the ninth of October, I resigned under constructive
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: dismissal and I started the tribunal process that was a
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: complete not to shambles. It's been eighteen months of hell,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: but I'm stronger than I've ever been. They completely underestimated me.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: The process is over and I'm now ready to speak
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: my truth in every avenue that i can in order
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: to raise awareness for children and families.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Leah, thank you very much for sharing that with us,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: because you know what you've said and what you've been
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: doing is utterly fantastic.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: I run a series which is called Gutsy Women, and
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I have a dilemma these days because I'm really pleased
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: to say there's a lot of gutsy women out there.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Oh it's good to hear when you.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: Talk about what started to happen when you challenge the system.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I've heard this before, and not necessarily in relation even
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: to children's services, but when people within local authorities discover
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: wrongdoing could be corruption, for example, misappropriation of money, and
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: they come forward to do the right things, they are
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: utterly smashed. They are stalled, they're accused, they're a character assassinated,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: and the ultimate agenda, particularly with we need to look
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: after your wellbeing is often the start of false accusations
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: that the persons suffering from depression or has got mental
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: health problems, because.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: That is exactly what I faced, Yes, exactly what I
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: faced and mentally and well, I'm a liar, I'm dishonest.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: They attacked my spirituality, trying to make it like home crazy.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, because if they can get that label on you,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: and they can get any reference to that type of
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: label in your personal professional documents, they're well on the
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: way to absolutely discrediting you as a witness.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: That was exactly what they intended to do.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: What is so fantastic here is that I go to
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: encourage our viewers and listeners to actually think, Okay, we're
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: based in UK, but this principle applies in most other,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: certainly Western countries. That the rule is that child protection
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: is one of the most fundamental issues governments talk about it.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: So our respective governments, whether it's been labor or Conservative,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter who the who the prime minister has been,
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: It all comes down to we are concerned that child
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: and protecting children is everybody's responsibility. Absolutely, I'll add every
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: child matters, because that was one of their little phrases,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: and you are yet another example that when a professional
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: sees experiences and has the evidence to demonstrate that children
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: are not being protected, and you stand up to speak
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: out and expose what's going on, you are brutalized. I
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: use that word deliberately in order to shut you up.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: So public are told you must be doing everything possible
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: to protect children. But when the state and its agencies
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: such as local authorities, are exposed as failing to protect children,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: they don't welcome the positive suggestions, which is where you
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: started in trying to deal with them. They don't want that.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: They just want to silence you as a whistleblur as
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: fast as possible.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: They reward the abusers, and they punish people like me.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've been punished. I lost my job,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: I nearly lost my home and my car. I considered
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: whether I'd have to rehung my pets. It did impact
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: my mental health to a degree, Like you know, I
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: did experience anxiety. I was incredibly stressed. I nearly lost
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: my home like I was incredibly stressed. Didn't impact my
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: mental health in the way that they were talking about me.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: But my manager was moved into another role. She had
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: a sir comment to eighty thousand pounds a year. The
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: social worker in question wasn't even suspended for gross misconduct.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: She continued within a role, and I've recently found out
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: she's been made a manager, she's been promoted. So from
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: my perspective, they've got it all upside down or the
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: wrong way round. They would rather protect those people and
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: crucify somebody like me. Whistle blow and policies are not
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: worth the paper that they're written on.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: And we have another key question here, because if it's
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: working the wrong way round, this is either this is
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: either failure. It's such a dramatic failure through the system
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: that they're getting it so badly wrong that they're actually
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: producing the opposite effect to what their declared professional role is.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: It's either incompetence on an unbelievable scale, or you have
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: experienced a deliberate policy to deliver the opposite service to
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: what they say they're there for.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: I believe it's deliberate. I really do. There's two There's
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: two much. There's too much of it. There's too much
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: that I've seen, it's too much I've experienced, and like
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: I said, during this process, I kind of have become
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: a magnet for families, and it just started hearing all
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: these other stories and then I started to actually reach
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: out to people. I'm looking at helping families in Gloucester
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: to share their stories. It's something I'm working on at
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: the moment, and there will be more that comes from
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: that moving forward. But I've kind of I've been reaching
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: out to people and they just the stories just don't
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: stop coming. They just don't stop.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Coming, which is exactly what I experience. I'm going to say,
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: I'm very encouraged. I'm actually very excited this year because
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: not only are more and more families coming forward and
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: speaking out, and that takes a lot of courage from
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: families that have been suppressed within this pretty unpleasant system.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Not only are we getting more families speaking out, but
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: the quality of the information that's coming out of them
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: is extremely high. And in many cases, families have been
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: through this sort of brutal procedure, children have been falsely
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: taken away from parents, but the parents, in dealing with
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: the sheer stress and trauma of that, do not have
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: the additional capability to suddenly appear on a public stage
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: and talk about what's happening. So many of them fail
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: and nobody would criticize them, for that is the pressure
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: of art. But we are seeing more and more parents,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: mums and dads, particularly mums, who are stepping up to
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: speak out, and they are doing it in an immensely
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: professional way. So they are coping with clear anger that
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: is there under the surface, but they're dealing with facts,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and they're talking about documents and they're putting real evidence
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: across to illustrate what's happening to them. And I think
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: that this is very, very exciting and important because absolutely
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: the number of people we get speaking out. I've likened
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: this to a bank robbery. If a bank robbery takes place,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: the bank robbers in general do not get convicted because
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: somebody's produced two thousand pages of documentary evidence. The evidence
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: that is likely to convict them can be very simple
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: that two people were on the street and saw two
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: particular men get out of the car with guns and
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: go into the bank. So it's the testimony of the
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: witness and the accuracy of those testimonies which convict in court.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: And if we have one or two parents coming forward
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: with stories about brutalization within child protection, okay, that's one
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: or two. But if we have ten, if we have twenty,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: if we have one hundred, if we have one thousand
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: parents coming forward from different parts of the country and
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: essentially telling the same story, that testimony group testimony for
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: me is overwhelming. It must stand on its own.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think we need to be prepared. It's going
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: to be in its hundred thousands, hundreds of thousands families
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: lean down country.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Do you actually know how many children are taken away
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: from parents in Gloucestershire every year? Do you know?
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: No? No, I have actually been considering doing some research
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: on this and doing a freedom of information request too
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: directly to the council. I have a few figures that
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: I want to know, but I haven't done that just
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: yet because I want to. I don't want to poke
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: the beast. At the moment, they haven't gagged me, and
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: I just want to start sharing my story as much
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: as I can before I start doing anything else, which
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: I will I do intend to at some point, but
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: I yeah, I just want to start speaking my truth.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: I am going to find out those figures. It is
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: in my mind. This is something I absolutely want to do. Yeah,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: there's figures I want to know as well.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: I can tell you there are there are other people
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: at the moment in the country who are also moving
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: down this path, and I can't name them because that's
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: not fair, but they're doing some really good work. In
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: the background. You've spoken out, people have come forward, both
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: families and people with in social services. Have you spoken
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: to other individuals to try and get help, you know,
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: for example, of you talk and talk to the mainstream
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: media or your local MP or any people like that.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: I haven't bothered with my local MP. No, because I
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: don't trust the politicians unfortunately, So now I haven't approached
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: my local MP. I have thought about it, and if
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: he approached me, I would be willing to have a
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: conversation with him, but I haven't deliberately gone out to him.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: I have just only just started reaching out to the
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: press and yes, I am I want to get this
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: into mainstream. I do have another interview lined up, but
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: that's going to We're going to work at it a
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: little bit slower. I'm going to be with the mother
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: who was actually who I was working with when I
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: received the TikTok video. We're going to speak out together
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: and it's going to be very, very targeted around the
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: whistle blowing, the social worker in question, and what happened
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: for the mother from her perspective working with the social worker,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: and then from my perspective working with the social worker
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: building up to me whistle blowing and what happened thereafter.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: I'm waiting to hear from others. I have contacted some
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: mainstream I'm waiting to see if they respond. Let's hope
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: they do. I'm going to keep pushing it. I'm hoping
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: that the more movement I have, especially with the next one,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: because it is much it's localized, but it's more mainstream,
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: So I'm hoping that this one is going to really
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: push it out into the mainstream.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, Well, this is very good because something else
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: that we would say is that we know that even
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: within mainstream media, there are people, there are people that
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: look out the window and know something is wrong. I
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: can tell you for a fact that I've dealt with
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: people both in the bigger newspapers but also even even
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: within TV channels who have done the groundwork on stories
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: to do with child protection. They were clearly very moved
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: and motivated by their interaction with the parents who'd suffered
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: what was clear wronged. If not criminal activity. But then
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: those stories were suppressed by the editorial teams. I know
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: this has happened for a fact, and on a number
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: of occasions, the journalists themselves were clearly devastated that what
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: they regarded as a critical story in the public interest
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: was actually closed down by their own editor Yeah.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: That doesn't surprise me.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but nevertheless, I totally agree with you that that
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: child protection is such an issue that we need to
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: try every single avenue to get the story out. So
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: I hope that that goes well for.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: My next interview. Like I said, it's much more mainstream.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: It is. I don't want to sort of speak too
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: much about it really because yeah, I just want to
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: proceed with it for until we because again it might
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: end up no, we can't run it, Like I'm half
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: anticipating that happening. So that's why I don't want to
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: speak too much about it. But it is, it is
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: much more mainstream.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: So you go and do that, and yeah, hope.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: It goes It's going very well so far.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: So yeah, So you've got a platform with us at
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: the moment, and the people are listening in and I
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: know people are going to be listening very closely and
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: watching very closely what you say the parents out there
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: who've experienced some of this appalling treatment by their so
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: called care teams. What would you encourage those parents to do?
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: Speak your truth, be brave, find the avenue, speak to
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: people like myself, yourself. I'm currently on TikTok and I
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: am going to be doing this. I'm going to support
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: people to share their story. See because of much advice
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: as you can get from people like yourself. But hang
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: in there because there are people like myself who really
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: are fighting hard for them.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, brilliant, Thank you for that. And you can also
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: speak to our audience itself. What would you like to
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: see the UK column audience doing for you? I always
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: have a simple thing for them to do, which i'll add,
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: But what would you like to feel that the audience
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: you have today is going to do in order to
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: help you?
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: I would like them to share my story. I would
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: like them to start questioning what is going on within
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: our social care services. It doesn't matter anybody that has
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: a child in their life is vulnerable to social care.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how wealthy you are, it doesn't matter
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: how much of a good parent you are. All it
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: will take is for your child to end up with
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: a bruise something like that, for social services to become
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: involved and say that you are the ones to blame
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: for that. I would ask that some really honest conversations
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: start happening, start questioning what is going on, and don't
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: look at these families as if they are somehow responsible
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: for having social care in their lives, because there's a
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: lot of stigma attached to families. I hear it a lot.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: Oh the social care don't get involved for no reason. Well, actually,
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: as a professional, I can tell you they do. So yeah,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: that would that be a bit more open minded. Question
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: everything and share my story as much as you can
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: to raise awareness.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Leo. Well, that sharing of the information
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: was the key one for me because it's such an
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: easy thing for people to do. I'll just add that
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: the other thing that comes with the sharing of information
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: is people often say, oh, well, I you know, I
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: sent the video to my sister or I sent the
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: video to a friend and and they simply didn't believe it.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: They said, this can't be true. And so what I
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: say to the people who were sending the material out
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: is just don't be put out. Off by this. It's
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: like planting seeds in the gardens. Some of them, some
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: of them take and grow, and some won't. But if
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: you get put down, don't be disheartened. Just keep pushing
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: the information out, keep going. Yes, and the other one,
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I'm smiling as I say it, but actually it's a
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: very powerful tool and it's amazing what you can achieve
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: by talking about difficult subjects in a Tesco queue in
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: line for the don't use one of the do it
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: yourself price paying systems because it's going to put people
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: out of jobs. But if you're in the queue, you
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: just start talking about it and you will be amazed
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: the reaction of people around you. I've done this on
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: a number of topics on many occasions, and I have
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: often experienced that once I get out out of the doors,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: out of the store, somebody comes running after me and says,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: can I talk to you about what you were talking
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: about in the queue?
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: Oh? Oh, yes, that's wonderful.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: It's very it's very very interesting. So and the other
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: bit is that if people are pushing information out about
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: what this is a very sensitive subject. We're talking about family,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: children and children being taken away from people there's a
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: lot of trauma. You must stay calm and measured in
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: the world that you disseminate information, and the way you
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: deal with people, the calmer and more reasonable we all are,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: the better people take that information.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: Great. I think I had one last question and it's
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: now slipped out of my head, which is a shame
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: because I shall remember it in a minute. But Lee,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: I want to say to you a huge thank you
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: because I know from some experience I've had myself from
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: other people, how much courage it takes to first of all,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: take on your employer, particularly when they're local authorities, because
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: they can be brutal in the way they deal with you.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: So you've demonstrated a lot of courage, and it's wonderful
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: that you are already able to say that families are
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: coming forward to trust you to speak out. So that's brilliant,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: and I really hope that you'll speak to us again.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, to tell us a.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: Bit more, tell us a bit more about what you've achieved.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, definitely, thank you, Brian, Okay, thank you, Leah