Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 548: BONUS DROP - Steve Talks with Two American Hunters Facing Prison in Turks and Caicos

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Ep. 548: BONUS DROP - Steve Talks with Two American Hunters Facing Prison in Turks and Caicos · The MeatEater Podcast

0:08
Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.
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Speaker 2: You can't predict anything.
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Speaker 1: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.
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Speaker 1: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting
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Speaker 1: dot com. F I R S T L I T
0:35
Speaker 1: E dot com. Okay, I'm on with Ryan Watson and
0:42
Speaker 1: Brian Hagrich who are in the Caribbean island nation of
0:49
Speaker 1: Turks and Caicos, which is a British territory. You guys
0:53
Speaker 1: are currently out on bail and facing with the potential
1:02
Speaker 1: of a twelve year prison sentence for having been found
1:10
Speaker 1: to have some hunting ammunition in your respective duffel bags
1:18
Speaker 1: with no gun with them while on vacation with your families.
1:24
Speaker 1: And prior to this you two did not know each other.
1:28
Speaker 2: No, no, not until what nine days ago? Around?
1:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, nine days ago?
1:33
Speaker 1: How in the you guys can decide however you want
1:36
Speaker 1: to start? Who wants to start? I guess whoever had
1:39
Speaker 1: this happen to him first? Like, how in the hell
1:41
Speaker 1: does this happen?
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Speaker 2: Well, that that would be me. So my family and
1:48
Speaker 2: I we came on vacation here February eighth. My wife,
1:52
Speaker 2: two kids, they were ages three and five at the time,
1:55
Speaker 2: came down here. It's a place we've traveled to for years.
2:01
Speaker 2: This was our fourth trip and we had a great time.
2:05
Speaker 2: I mean, this was a great time for our kids.
2:08
Speaker 2: A lot of great stuff, great memories, and then it
2:13
Speaker 2: all kind of went to hell when we came home.
2:16
Speaker 1: I'll saying, and this is this is on the way home, the.
2:20
Speaker 2: Way home, not on the way here, on the way home.
2:23
Speaker 1: So you left, you depart when you can't left for
2:26
Speaker 1: your vacation. Where did you leave from?
2:29
Speaker 3: We flew up Pittsburgh.
2:31
Speaker 1: And uh obviously went through the TSA process in Pittsburgh.
2:37
Speaker 3: Y Yeah, yeah, yes he did. I did. Yes.
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Speaker 1: Okay, So you checked a bag, you checked a Duffel
2:43
Speaker 1: bag from home, correct, not carried down but checked correct,
2:48
Speaker 1: got into the country, went through customs on the way in.
2:52
Speaker 1: Just Turks and Caicos.
2:54
Speaker 3: That's the interesting part. That's yeah, they need not scan
2:58
Speaker 3: your bags upon entry into this country. Okay, the only
3:03
Speaker 3: country I've ever personally traveled to you that does not do.
3:05
Speaker 1: That, but they scanned your bags on exit. Correct, So
3:12
Speaker 1: what happens then? Like you your vacation wraps up and
3:19
Speaker 1: you go to the airport and everything seems to be
3:22
Speaker 1: going fine. Then all of a sudden, it's not like
3:24
Speaker 1: how does this play out?
3:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're about to hop on a flight, probably I
3:30
Speaker 2: don't know, half hour from boarding, and I hear my
3:33
Speaker 2: name paged overhead to come to the ticket counter and
3:37
Speaker 2: my wife stayed with our two kids. I walk up
3:39
Speaker 2: to the ticket counter and at first they weren't sure
3:42
Speaker 2: if you know what it was about or anything. This
3:45
Speaker 2: is just hang tight for a minute, and then they said, oh,
3:48
Speaker 2: you've been selected for a random bag check, which, okay,
3:52
Speaker 2: that's fine, we've all been there at some point. Sent
3:56
Speaker 2: me over to a different area of the airport and
4:00
Speaker 2: walk in. There are two individuals there and this they
4:03
Speaker 2: had been selected for in a bag check. Do you
4:05
Speaker 2: consent to this? Is this your bag? And I said,
4:07
Speaker 2: yes it is, and absolutely I consent. So I don't
4:12
Speaker 2: know exactly how long it was that went by, but
4:15
Speaker 2: it seemed like a very long time. And their search
4:18
Speaker 2: and they're pulling out my kid's puddle jumper, their floating sunscreen,
4:24
Speaker 2: just everything imaginable and they're looking and they're looking. And
4:27
Speaker 2: then after I would have to guess it was probably
4:31
Speaker 2: eight nine minutes, they pull up ammunition and the guy
4:38
Speaker 2: had the biggest smile on his face. It was like
4:41
Speaker 2: he just won the lottery and just looked at it
4:45
Speaker 2: and he said, is this yours? And it did a
4:48
Speaker 2: double take and it quickly became recognizable to me that, yeah,
4:53
Speaker 2: this is my ammunition I had back home, purchased legally
4:56
Speaker 2: in the US.
4:58
Speaker 3: What was the animal six or five PRC.
5:04
Speaker 2: And from there then it just seemed like there was
5:07
Speaker 2: a whole swarm of people that kind of ensued. People
5:11
Speaker 2: were on the phone, and I was just lost. I said,
5:15
Speaker 2: you know, I figured, okay, you know that's you can
5:18
Speaker 2: take the ammunition. You know, deal with what we need
5:21
Speaker 2: to deal with. And I fully expected at that point
5:23
Speaker 2: to still board the flight with my family. And as
5:26
Speaker 2: time went on it went on, it became more and
5:30
Speaker 2: more apparent that that probably wasn't going to happen. And
5:35
Speaker 2: then two police officers arrived and they were all but
5:41
Speaker 2: ready to take me off too, I presume the police
5:45
Speaker 2: station or investigation And I said, wait, guys like I have.
5:51
Speaker 2: You know, my wife and my two kids are about
5:54
Speaker 2: to hop on a plane. You know, they need to
5:57
Speaker 2: know what's going on here, and they did not in
6:00
Speaker 2: the worst kind of way. Even when to let them
6:02
Speaker 2: know what was happening anything, I had to literally plead
6:08
Speaker 2: with them to Finally where they went and got my wife.
6:12
Speaker 2: They brought her and my children over, brought us into
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Speaker 2: a small room, wouldn't let the kids in, made them
6:19
Speaker 2: stand outside, and gave us, I don't know, a minute
6:24
Speaker 2: or two together where I gave her the key to
6:26
Speaker 2: the car, a few other things, and off they went.
6:33
Speaker 2: At that point, I still, you know, said hey, you know,
6:35
Speaker 2: I'll hop on the next flight. I'll see you at
6:38
Speaker 2: home tomorrow and we'll be in touch. And as things
6:43
Speaker 2: progressed over, you know, they escorted me to the police car,
6:46
Speaker 2: different things that became apparent that I was not seeing
6:50
Speaker 2: them tomorrow.
6:52
Speaker 1: Man, I got I got a million questions. Well, let's
6:58
Speaker 1: let's hear the other story from up top, and then
7:01
Speaker 1: we'll come back in with a couple follow up questions.
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Speaker 3: I'm Rian Watson from Oklahoma. Two buddies of mine, we
7:09
Speaker 3: were all turning forty within a few weeks of each other.
7:13
Speaker 3: Our wives had gotten together and thought, man, let's plan
7:15
Speaker 3: a fortieth birthday forum. We started kicking around a bunch
7:19
Speaker 3: of different destinations, and the other two couples wanted to
7:23
Speaker 3: come to Turks and Caicos. My wife and I did not,
7:27
Speaker 3: which is kind of the salt in this whole thing.
7:30
Speaker 3: But yeah, so we we agreed. We're like, all right,
7:34
Speaker 3: let's go, we'll go. We come here April seventh and
7:40
Speaker 3: with two other couples, have a great time, are leaving
7:44
Speaker 3: to go home in April twelfth. I have a rolling
7:48
Speaker 3: Duffel bag that I use, like on the weekends and such.
7:52
Speaker 3: We grabbed it the very last second when we left
7:54
Speaker 3: for the airport from Oklahoma City, just because my wife's
7:58
Speaker 3: bag felt a little heavy and she was like, we
8:00
Speaker 3: might need a place to throw extra stuff. It's like,
8:02
Speaker 3: all right, cool, I'll grab that bag, opened it up,
8:06
Speaker 3: looked inside, gave a little shake. Nothing, So we started
8:09
Speaker 3: loading it up. Off we go. But anyways, we're on
8:12
Speaker 3: our way home. We are. It's a madhouse at the
8:17
Speaker 3: airport because a flight had been canceled. We had hired
8:21
Speaker 3: this skypass company that basically like fast traction through security,
8:28
Speaker 3: so we were cutting through. Some families are pissed that
8:31
Speaker 3: we're cutting through this security line, and so there's like
8:34
Speaker 3: a whole game of like where there's shuffling bins and such.
8:37
Speaker 3: And you know, I'm a pretty passive guy at first glance,
8:42
Speaker 3: and so I'm like, all right, whatever, like with my
8:44
Speaker 3: wife and I get separated. I ended up going through first.
8:48
Speaker 3: I walked through nothing and like, no issue. I walk
8:53
Speaker 3: into the duty free shop and there's a glass wall
8:55
Speaker 3: and I looked through and I see my wife standing
8:57
Speaker 3: there waiting on the bag. And so I walked back
8:59
Speaker 3: and I'm like, what do you wait on? Babcon cheese? Like, oh,
9:01
Speaker 3: your duffel bag still, like it's getting inspected, okay. So
9:06
Speaker 3: we had on the way back, we had taken her
9:10
Speaker 3: makeup bag and such out of her out of her
9:12
Speaker 3: luggage to make room for a bottle of wine, and
9:16
Speaker 3: so I threw that in my duffel bag. They are
9:20
Speaker 3: starting to rip through all that stuff, and I'm thinking, oh,
9:22
Speaker 3: it's she's got liquid in there, Like that's not a
9:24
Speaker 3: big deal. Like, and you know, my buddy's are ribbing me.
9:28
Speaker 3: They're like, oh what you got in there? And we're
9:30
Speaker 3: all laughing. I'm sure at some point. I don't know
9:32
Speaker 3: if the security camera would be like it is, like
9:35
Speaker 3: we're laughing and ribbing and still having a good time,
9:39
Speaker 3: and they're I mean, they're searching like crazy through this bag,
9:43
Speaker 3: really looking for They take everything out, run everything through it,
9:48
Speaker 3: and then they run the bag through another time or two,
9:51
Speaker 3: and I mean they're searching like crazy, and damn near
9:53
Speaker 3: just assemble the bag. Next thing, you know, the customs
9:57
Speaker 3: agent like pulls out like a bag they head. My
10:02
Speaker 3: wife initially thought it was like the little locks that
10:04
Speaker 3: they sometimes conclude whenever you buy luggage, and she was like,
10:09
Speaker 3: was that the little locks? I was like, I don't know,
10:10
Speaker 3: and then she turned back around. She held it up
10:12
Speaker 3: after they'd like gone and like taken photos with it,
10:16
Speaker 3: which was kind of strange because it seemed like they
10:18
Speaker 3: were like taking selfies with it. But they turn around
10:20
Speaker 3: they show it to me and I was like, shit,
10:23
Speaker 3: like I realize exactly what that is, you know, like
10:27
Speaker 3: that's the Ammo that I buy reloaded Ammo this place
10:30
Speaker 3: in Oklahoma City, and I was like, that's a little
10:32
Speaker 3: baggie of sixty five preed more than I buy, like
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Speaker 3: when I go hunting and like I'm like, oh shit.
10:38
Speaker 3: The lady walks over and I'm like, hey, I'm so sorry,
10:42
Speaker 3: Like I don't need it. It's only like a couple
10:44
Speaker 3: of rounds. It looks like in there. I was like,
10:46
Speaker 3: you can just toss it. We'll be on our way.
10:48
Speaker 3: She's like no, she said, well here, you got to
10:51
Speaker 3: talk to the police officer before you go. And I'm like,
10:53
Speaker 3: all right, cool guy. The customs guy walks by and
10:57
Speaker 3: he's like it happens all the time. Are our laws
11:00
Speaker 3: just say that you have to talk to a police
11:02
Speaker 3: officer And he's like, you American hunters do this all
11:04
Speaker 3: the time. I'm all right, whatever, Like nothing seems like.
11:09
Speaker 3: I'm thinking I'm gonna get like a verbal reprimand we
11:12
Speaker 3: wait there forever. Twenty minutes pass by. Finally guy walks
11:17
Speaker 3: over and playing clothes and he's like, hey, let me
11:19
Speaker 3: like he starts shuffling through my bag. He said, let
11:21
Speaker 3: me see your passport. He looks at it and he's like, hey,
11:24
Speaker 3: I just want you to know you're not going to
11:25
Speaker 3: make that flight, and he like hands it back to
11:27
Speaker 3: me like the way he did it. I was like,
11:29
Speaker 3: this guy's trying to be tough, you know, he's trying
11:31
Speaker 3: to be intimidating, and I was like okay. So I
11:34
Speaker 3: was like, hey, I'm sorry, we'll probably gonna have to
11:36
Speaker 3: catch the next flight. We walk outside because both my
11:40
Speaker 3: wife and I. Next thing, you know, unmarked carr walks
11:44
Speaker 3: like pulls up. They jump out, They put us in
11:47
Speaker 3: the car. We don't fully understand what's going on. They
11:52
Speaker 3: take us to a kind of an unmarked building where
11:56
Speaker 3: they take us in a room and tearorgate us and
11:59
Speaker 3: and I'm you know, I'm still not like fully comprehending.
12:02
Speaker 3: I'm like, all right, I'm about to pay a fine,
12:04
Speaker 3: you know, Like this is.
12:06
Speaker 1: You know, when they're interrogating you, what is the line
12:09
Speaker 1: of questioning.
12:12
Speaker 3: Do you are you licensed to carry such AMMO? And
12:15
Speaker 3: I'm like where I'm from, you don't have to have
12:17
Speaker 3: a license to have AMMO. Like I was like, I
12:20
Speaker 3: don't understand what you're talking about, Like there's not a
12:23
Speaker 3: firearm associated with that AMMO. And they're like are you
12:27
Speaker 3: a hunter? And I'm like yes, and can you prove it?
12:30
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I guess I got a bunch of
12:31
Speaker 3: gripping grins that I can show you. Like and so
12:34
Speaker 3: I'm like pulling out my phone and they're i mean
12:39
Speaker 3: asking a litany of questions. It was a you know,
12:43
Speaker 3: and I was like, hey, I was like, can we
12:45
Speaker 3: call my parents to let them know that we're going
12:47
Speaker 3: to be late because they're watching our kids. And they
12:50
Speaker 3: were like, you don't get it, like you're both going
12:54
Speaker 3: to be arrested and you're both going to jail or
12:56
Speaker 3: going to prison for twelve years. And at which point
12:59
Speaker 3: my wife was like, I mean pleaded, like we have children,
13:03
Speaker 3: and she broke down, and I mean I quickly broke
13:07
Speaker 3: down as well, because I was like, it was very
13:11
Speaker 3: apparent at that point that they weren't joking anymore. At first,
13:14
Speaker 3: I thought it was an intimidation tactic.
13:16
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and they're.
13:18
Speaker 3: Like, no, you're gonna be taken to jail tonight. And
13:22
Speaker 3: the thing that got me I never said this yet,
13:26
Speaker 3: but my wife asked, am I going to be cold?
13:32
Speaker 3: And as a husband who's always considered myself a protector,
13:39
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm not letting this happen. Like I
13:42
Speaker 3: was like, she's not going in that damn jail. And
13:44
Speaker 3: so I started pushing back. I'm like, look, there's got
13:47
Speaker 3: to be another way, Like like what like, you're not
13:51
Speaker 3: serious that you're gonna take us both to jail with
13:53
Speaker 3: kids at home. Finally they came back there like we're
13:56
Speaker 3: going to offer you a police bail, but you need
13:58
Speaker 3: to find a surety. And I'm like, I've never been
14:01
Speaker 3: I've never been arrested in my life. I don't know
14:03
Speaker 3: what that is. Like. You need to find a Turk Islander,
14:07
Speaker 3: like a local native that's willing to put up an
14:11
Speaker 3: asset equivalent to your bail.
14:14
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't want to bail.
14:15
Speaker 3: Is and he's like, it'll be about ten thousand bucks.
14:18
Speaker 3: And I'm like, so I need to find a local
14:20
Speaker 3: that'll put up ten thousand bucks for me. And I
14:23
Speaker 3: was like, I've been here on a five day vacation
14:26
Speaker 3: and I'm like texting my friend. I stuck my phone
14:28
Speaker 3: in and so I was texting my buddies that we
14:30
Speaker 3: were traveling with, and they're like, oh, we're going to
14:32
Speaker 3: text Reuben, our driver. So the guy that had we'd
14:35
Speaker 3: hired to drive us around the whole week, bless his
14:38
Speaker 3: little heart, man, he shows up. He puts the title
14:41
Speaker 3: to his car up as sure A kidding me no,
14:46
Speaker 3: And so that my wife and I can be out
14:49
Speaker 3: on bail throughout the weekend and kind of get our
14:52
Speaker 3: feet underneath us and figure out what we had to
14:54
Speaker 3: rental hotel room last second, call my parents. I'm like,
14:59
Speaker 3: this is like serious. So they fly down that sun
15:03
Speaker 3: That was Friday. They fly down that Sunday. That Monday,
15:06
Speaker 3: we're supposed to go back in give a recorded interview
15:09
Speaker 3: where I say, my bag, it's the bag that I
15:12
Speaker 3: travel with. Those are the bullets that I use for hunting.
15:15
Speaker 3: No idea how they ended up there, but so we
15:18
Speaker 3: do that mm hmm, and they come out they're not
15:24
Speaker 3: they're just not decided on whether whether or not they're
15:26
Speaker 3: going to charge both my wife Valerie or not. And
15:30
Speaker 3: so they tell my attorney they're like, proba, we just
15:31
Speaker 3: don't know. We haven't made up her mind yet. We're
15:33
Speaker 3: going to keep them remanded to the Islands on bail.
15:38
Speaker 3: They have to post it again. So we had the
15:40
Speaker 3: driver come back put the title of his car up again,
15:44
Speaker 3: and they kept us there for another for another week. Essentially,
15:48
Speaker 3: I went back this past Monday. They charged me. They
15:52
Speaker 3: dropped the charges of my wife. She got her passport
15:55
Speaker 3: and I told her it's like immediately go get on
15:57
Speaker 3: a plane and get off this island. I went to jail.
16:02
Speaker 3: I had kind of no idea what was going on
16:07
Speaker 3: in the outside world. I was so here, you have
16:12
Speaker 3: to go to Supreme Court in order to get bail
16:15
Speaker 3: under the ammunitions or fire firearms charge. So it took
16:19
Speaker 3: us a while to get the Supreme Court. So I
16:21
Speaker 3: was there on Wednesday where they late Wednesday afternoon they
16:25
Speaker 3: finally approved my bail. Sure how to get surity again,
16:31
Speaker 3: which we knew our attorney kind of warned us. We
16:34
Speaker 3: put the feelers out and a guy put up the
16:36
Speaker 3: title of his restaurant. God I had never met before.
16:40
Speaker 3: I went and met him, had a beer with him,
16:41
Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm in a bad situation, dude,
16:44
Speaker 3: and he was like, I've heard you're a good person
16:48
Speaker 3: with a really good heart. Like I'm willing to, you know,
16:51
Speaker 3: take a chance and just you know, put this up
16:54
Speaker 3: for you. And I was like, man, I don't know
16:57
Speaker 3: how to thank you, like and so he put his
17:00
Speaker 3: already for me. And I got out on bail on Wednesday,
17:03
Speaker 3: and you know, here we are. It's been wild.
17:16
Speaker 1: What is their attitude about the fact that you're trying,
17:21
Speaker 1: that you're on your way out. So presumably if you
17:23
Speaker 1: were importing ammunition, you'd be looking for it on the
17:29
Speaker 1: way in, but you're you're leaving with it. Does that
17:33
Speaker 1: enter the conversation at all? Or is that for a
17:36
Speaker 1: later date when you have a trial.
17:38
Speaker 2: I mean, it's our conversation here, we we.
17:42
Speaker 3: I mean, you can't not but just sit there and
17:44
Speaker 3: rack your brain. I mean I've had I had had
17:48
Speaker 3: conversations with police officers while I was being transported, you know,
17:52
Speaker 3: in the back of the car, shackled, and they're like,
17:54
Speaker 3: you know, we don't agree with this, right, And I'm like,
17:57
Speaker 3: hard to see it from my end, you know, And
17:59
Speaker 3: they're like and I'm like, look, I was like, charge
18:02
Speaker 3: me the like set a record for the fine that
18:04
Speaker 3: you charge somebody. I was like, I'll pay for the
18:07
Speaker 3: X rays sat on the way in so that you
18:09
Speaker 3: can actually thwart the gun crime that you're trying to
18:12
Speaker 3: like get rid of, Like I'll pay for it, like
18:17
Speaker 3: trust me, Like I'm good for it. But doing this
18:21
Speaker 3: like arresting two dads that hunt on the weekends, like
18:25
Speaker 3: it does nothing for your crime. And so yeah, I
18:30
Speaker 3: mean and they, you know, the police officers, you know,
18:33
Speaker 3: off the record, and are like, yeah, we can agree more, but.
18:37
Speaker 1: And what is this have you heard from the State Department,
18:40
Speaker 1: the US State Department about like, uh, are they taking
18:44
Speaker 1: a position on this or are they are they trying
18:47
Speaker 1: to negotiate on your behalf or making any demands that
18:51
Speaker 1: that these two people who are obviously innocent of any
18:54
Speaker 1: kind of attempted gun crime are being harassed with this
19:01
Speaker 1: potential twelve year prison sentence. This isn't on their radar
19:06
Speaker 1: in some ways.
19:08
Speaker 2: There's actually a third noil too, so we're just we're
19:11
Speaker 2: not too I heard about that potentially a fourth we're
19:15
Speaker 2: not sure of yet.
19:17
Speaker 3: When I was being interrogated, they brought in a mid
19:20
Speaker 3: to late twenties presumably. I thought she was an American girl.
19:26
Speaker 3: I've since reached out to the embassy a number of
19:28
Speaker 3: times because I'm concerned about her, because this is hell right,
19:32
Speaker 3: and I mean, the fact that we've been able to
19:35
Speaker 3: link up and kind of support each other is great,
19:37
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I want to help the girl out
19:39
Speaker 3: if I can. I don't know where she is. I
19:43
Speaker 3: pressed the State Press the embassy. I got a call
19:47
Speaker 3: back that they're doing an investigation. They do admit that
19:52
Speaker 3: they took a young female into custody, but they think
19:58
Speaker 3: that she might not be of American descent.
20:02
Speaker 1: Well, an article just came out about another I just
20:05
Speaker 1: remember it was a male who also had learning ammunition.
20:10
Speaker 1: So so the state So the State Department is not
20:12
Speaker 1: making you any they're not making you any promises. I mean,
20:16
Speaker 1: it just seems to me that it just seems ridiculous
20:18
Speaker 1: that this could be going on for this long.
20:20
Speaker 2: I've been here for almost eighty days. I mean, if
20:22
Speaker 2: that's any indication.
20:24
Speaker 1: And what what are your conversations with the with the
20:26
Speaker 1: US government.
20:28
Speaker 2: So the State Department, We've not engaged directly with them.
20:33
Speaker 2: It's been predominantly through Senator Wayne Line for well, Mark
20:38
Speaker 2: Wayne Mark, Mark Wayne mall and I'm sorry. And the
20:41
Speaker 2: US Embassy in Nassau.
20:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, Mark wwyn Willins from from Oklahoma has been on it.
20:48
Speaker 3: Literally he was informed while my wife and I were
20:52
Speaker 3: still being interrogated because his his niece and nephew go
20:57
Speaker 3: to the school. My wife teaches a little Christian school there.
21:00
Speaker 3: I say, his niece and nephew go to that school,
21:04
Speaker 3: and my wife had texted her principal and so Mark
21:09
Speaker 3: Wayne Mullins was already in touch with the embassy before
21:12
Speaker 3: we were ever out of the investigation. So he's been
21:16
Speaker 3: on it from the jump and has been just an
21:19
Speaker 3: absolute bulldog about it. I've got all the faith in
21:24
Speaker 3: the world and him, I just think that you know,
21:28
Speaker 3: he's you know, these things take time, and so hit
21:32
Speaker 3: him and Governor Stead, Senator Langford as well from Oklahoma.
21:36
Speaker 3: You know, they've both absolutely taken Brian under their wing
21:40
Speaker 3: and just given him, I mean, Mark Waynemullins.
21:44
Speaker 2: Text he called me, texted me. I mean, I can't
21:46
Speaker 2: tell you how many times at this point and what state?
21:49
Speaker 1: What state are you from, Brian, Pennsylvania? Okay? And you've
21:54
Speaker 1: been in church with elected officials in Pennsylvania.
21:57
Speaker 2: I have for quite some time. Yes, nothing Unfortunately, nothing
22:02
Speaker 2: has happened until Ryde here was arrested as well. And
22:07
Speaker 2: still from from my perspective, at a senator, at a
22:11
Speaker 2: governor level, there's been no contact whatsoever. But you're getting it.
22:16
Speaker 1: You're getting you're getting it from Oklahoma now, though.
22:19
Speaker 2: I certainly am. It's been phenomenal.
22:22
Speaker 1: Man. I That's what blows my mind here, man is uh.
22:27
Speaker 1: I mean, I have like an automatic sympathy for you
22:30
Speaker 1: as just like a couple of hunters, and and I
22:34
Speaker 1: go hunting, I travel with my family. I'm always hounding
22:36
Speaker 1: on my thirteen year old, fourteen year old boy to
22:40
Speaker 1: you know, be careful about straight twenty two shells. When
22:44
Speaker 1: this first came out, my first caught wind of this
22:46
Speaker 1: before I even knew how he's speaking to you. I
22:49
Speaker 1: sent him an article about this, saying, this is why
22:52
Speaker 1: I'm always on your case about having a twenty two
22:55
Speaker 1: shell in your pocket. Right, but to me, to have
23:00
Speaker 1: it be that you have no way to fire these rounds.
23:05
Speaker 1: This is not ammunition for a gun that would be
23:08
Speaker 1: even remotely available.
23:11
Speaker 2: You are.
23:13
Speaker 1: Leaving with it, not bringing it in. You are dealing
23:18
Speaker 1: in like these are very small quantities of ammo. You're
23:21
Speaker 1: not a drug runner, You're headed home. It's ridiculous, yeah,
23:29
Speaker 1: that you could be going through this, And it also
23:32
Speaker 1: seems to me a little bit ridiculous that we're not
23:35
Speaker 1: able to exert more that are, you know, not that
23:40
Speaker 1: they're not doing it, but I would just imagine that
23:43
Speaker 1: there would be a full court press on the on
23:47
Speaker 1: behalf of the US government about having a couple of
23:51
Speaker 1: our citizens wrongfully detained over something that's just so obviously ridiculous.
23:57
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's interesting too, because the charge is
24:00
Speaker 3: actually possession of ammunition and had nothing to do with
24:03
Speaker 3: the fact that we were in here. It's just possession.
24:07
Speaker 3: And so in the United States, possessing ammunition is all right, right,
24:13
Speaker 3: and so it is. It's just strange, you know, there's
24:19
Speaker 3: it just seems like there's such a more sensible way
24:22
Speaker 3: to deal with this, you know, any other country. It's
24:25
Speaker 3: a fine, any other sovereign country to our knowledge, and all.
24:28
Speaker 2: These these islands, all these scribbing islands that it's dealt
24:31
Speaker 2: with in a much different way.
24:34
Speaker 3: Yeah.
24:34
Speaker 1: Well, listen, man, intent matters. I mean, of course, of course,
24:39
Speaker 1: I'm sure you learned your lesson. Of course it shouldn't
24:41
Speaker 1: have happened. Of course, there's there's some blame that you
24:43
Speaker 1: got to feel on your own end for I mean,
24:45
Speaker 1: you screwed up. But like intent matters, there's there's clearly
24:50
Speaker 1: obviously no intent. There's no intent to like be importing,
24:54
Speaker 1: distributing anything ammunition. I understand the charge is possession, but
24:58
Speaker 1: but it's uh, you know, like I said, man, I'll
25:01
Speaker 1: say it for the fourth time. Intent matters, and there's
25:05
Speaker 1: no intent to do anything wrong here. It just it
25:08
Speaker 1: really feels to me like a I mean one, it's
25:11
Speaker 1: a real warning to other hunters and listen, man, I'll
25:16
Speaker 1: come out and say, this could happen to anybody. It
25:20
Speaker 1: happened to me. It happened to me in the Anchorage
25:23
Speaker 1: airport where I was walking on and we had been
25:25
Speaker 1: Ptarmigan hunting and I had a couple game twelve gauge
25:29
Speaker 1: game loads in a backpack. Right, it can happen to anyone.
25:33
Speaker 1: It's happened to many, and many of my friends. With
25:37
Speaker 1: the fact that it could land you in a situation
25:39
Speaker 1: like this, with the with the stress of this potential
25:42
Speaker 1: long term prison sentence, I mean, I feel horrible for
25:44
Speaker 1: you guys.
25:45
Speaker 2: Man, it's I mean for me, it's not a nightmare
25:49
Speaker 2: that is just you don't wake up from it's every
25:51
Speaker 2: single day you think, Okay, I'll wake up and I'll
25:55
Speaker 2: be at home.
25:56
Speaker 1: And here I am so far as you guys know,
26:00
Speaker 1: what what is the next step you have a you
26:02
Speaker 1: have a A is it does it go to a
26:04
Speaker 1: jury trial? Like like when when do you next interact
26:07
Speaker 1: with the authorities?
26:09
Speaker 2: So I'm I'm next up to bats. I have my
26:12
Speaker 2: hearing on Friday, May of the third. So we're only
26:15
Speaker 2: a few days away from that. And essentially, you know,
26:20
Speaker 2: my hearing paves the way for for Ryan, for Tyler,
26:26
Speaker 2: and anybody else that's you know, either here now that
26:29
Speaker 2: we don't know about or others in the future. There
26:33
Speaker 2: was a Supreme Court ruling that came out in February
26:37
Speaker 2: this year that I won't say it didn't change the laws,
26:40
Speaker 2: but it did clarified in their mind what, you know,
26:44
Speaker 2: how this can be dealt with, And essentially it's it's
26:47
Speaker 2: a mine and it's a mandatory jail sentence.
26:51
Speaker 3: Mandatory mandatory.
26:54
Speaker 2: Yes, now they can handle that in a number of
26:57
Speaker 2: different ways. The first key component is they have to
27:03
Speaker 2: find what they consider exceptional circumstances, and that entails three
27:08
Speaker 2: different factors. One, it's your prior history. Two was their intent,
27:13
Speaker 2: and then the third factor is, you know, does the
27:19
Speaker 2: whatever the repercussions are, does it deter others from committing
27:22
Speaker 2: a similar same crime. So that's the first hurdle. Then
27:26
Speaker 2: the second hurdle is the jail time, and that's the
27:30
Speaker 2: I'll say, essentially the wild card. Because in the past,
27:34
Speaker 2: I think there were five last year, five cases last year.
27:38
Speaker 2: There are now four this year that, you know, the
27:43
Speaker 2: five from last year, they did find exceptional circumstances. But
27:47
Speaker 2: the last individual, unfortunately, he was sentenced eight months in.
27:52
Speaker 1: Prison here and what had that the person that did
27:55
Speaker 1: eight months in prison? What had he done?
27:58
Speaker 2: Again? Similar but you know, slightly different. His was I
28:03
Speaker 2: believe nine millimeter ammunition. I'm not sure what type of
28:07
Speaker 2: bag it was. I don't know.
28:09
Speaker 3: I think it was a magazine. I think it was
28:10
Speaker 3: a loaded magazine.
28:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, but no, but no pistol.
28:14
Speaker 3: No, no firearm.
28:16
Speaker 2: Now, there have been two other cases where there were
28:19
Speaker 2: firearms prior to him, and essentially the individuals, I appears
28:26
Speaker 2: they were misled by either the airlines whomever they spoke
28:29
Speaker 2: with that they were allowed to bring them here, but
28:32
Speaker 2: upon exiting again were found with handguns and ammunition and
28:38
Speaker 2: they both were able to They stayed here for quite
28:41
Speaker 2: a while again, but they paid a fine and went home.
28:45
Speaker 1: And I understand you guys have I don't know if
28:47
Speaker 1: it's one or two. You guys have a GoFundMe site
28:51
Speaker 1: set up for for folks who feel inclined to help
28:55
Speaker 1: you out. Is that true?
28:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, my sister set one up for us. That was
29:01
Speaker 3: done while I was in jail, and so I have
29:03
Speaker 3: no idea, to be honest with you, I've I've never
29:06
Speaker 3: even clicked on the link. I've some people have shared
29:09
Speaker 3: it with me, like somebody saying, oh my gosh, Donald
29:11
Speaker 3: Trump Junior shared your I'm uncomfortable with it. Man, as
29:16
Speaker 3: somebody that's a provider for you're you know, that's always
29:20
Speaker 3: considered myself as a provider for my family, and I
29:24
Speaker 3: wanted to help take care of others. To be in
29:26
Speaker 3: a situation where you feel like you may need help,
29:28
Speaker 3: is it's emasculating in a way, like it's just it's
29:33
Speaker 3: hard to it's hard. It's something that's hard to wear.
29:36
Speaker 3: I don't know how. I don't know how to explain it.
29:38
Speaker 1: I'm understood, understood.
29:40
Speaker 3: And completely grateful for everybody. And don't get me wrong,
29:46
Speaker 3: this is this to very easily financially, like just ankrupt anybody.
29:51
Speaker 3: And we were, you know, high on the hog. I mean,
29:57
Speaker 3: we we work hard and you know we do you know, okay,
30:00
Speaker 3: but like we're not. We weren't equipped to handle this,
30:03
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, it's damn expensive. And so my
30:08
Speaker 3: sister she put that together. You know, my wife and
30:14
Speaker 3: I are both huge in our faith, and we want
30:17
Speaker 3: to be servants of the Lord, and so we've committed that, like, hey,
30:21
Speaker 3: we're going to use this to help our situation, but
30:23
Speaker 3: we want to help others as well. And so you know,
30:25
Speaker 3: we're going to see what we can do to help
30:27
Speaker 3: Tyler get bail. He's the one that's still in Grand
30:31
Speaker 3: Turk prison. We want to help Brian and his family
30:34
Speaker 3: as best we can. I mean, I don't want to
30:37
Speaker 3: dissuade anybody from doing their own or whatever, and fully
30:42
Speaker 3: encourage people to go do that, but I also want
30:45
Speaker 3: people to know that we're not I mean, I just
30:48
Speaker 3: want to be home, like with your kids, Like I don't.
30:51
Speaker 3: I'd give it all right now, I promise. I don't
30:54
Speaker 3: know what's in there, but I checked to whoever for
30:56
Speaker 3: it so that we all three can go home. Yeah.
30:59
Speaker 1: Man, I'd like to see you guys come home, Like
31:01
Speaker 1: I said, it just it really, uh man. I got
31:05
Speaker 1: empathy for you, but also just an awareness of how
31:08
Speaker 1: something like this could happen to anyone. And uh Ryan Watson,
31:12
Speaker 1: Brian Hagrich. I'm gonna let you guys go, but man,
31:17
Speaker 1: we're all gonna be watching.
31:18
Speaker 3: Uh A promise on air. I will be recorded.
31:24
Speaker 2: This goes for both of us.
31:25
Speaker 3: By the way, if we get locked up for twelve years,
31:28
Speaker 3: you have to take our boys hunting.
31:30
Speaker 1: On promise right now.
31:34
Speaker 2: I'm gonna send you a picture of my boy from
31:36
Speaker 2: this this past winter, the first time shooting just be
31:39
Speaker 2: begun the weekend before.
31:40
Speaker 1: I saw I saw one of you guys had I
31:42
Speaker 1: saw one of you guys had a boy that got
31:44
Speaker 1: a couple of turkeys this spring.
31:45
Speaker 3: Certain that was the weekend before we came here.
31:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if it comes down to that, don't worry.
31:52
Speaker 1: I'll uh, I will personally take them all out hunting.
31:55
Speaker 1: I'll find some people to take them out hunting as well.
31:58
Speaker 1: And let's hope it doesn't come to that. And also,
32:00
Speaker 1: listeners out there, man, this could happen to anybody. If
32:03
Speaker 1: you guys live in Pennsylvania or Oklahoma, you want to
32:07
Speaker 1: call your elected officials and try to lean on them
32:10
Speaker 1: a little bit to help get these guys back home
32:12
Speaker 1: for something that you know, it's just not something that
32:16
Speaker 1: someone should be suffering through, for a case of just
32:19
Speaker 1: an honest mistake made in the wrong place. All right, guys,
32:24
Speaker 1: best of luck. We're gonna keep following up. Jordan Sillers
32:28
Speaker 1: has a piece up on the meeater dot com about
32:30
Speaker 1: you guys. I'm sure he'll continue to track the story.
32:33
Speaker 1: And man, I just want to wish you guys the
32:35
Speaker 1: best best of luck. There's anything we can do, let
32:38
Speaker 1: us know. And uh, like I said, the minute I
32:40
Speaker 1: saw that story, I just got a sink and feeling
32:43
Speaker 1: because how like I said, it could happen to anybody.
32:46
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, Yeah, appreciate the time you guys.
32:49
Speaker 1: Take care you tooks, best luck,