Latest / Unofficial QuickBooks Accountants Podcast / The 20 Things Bookkeepers Should Never Do (Wheel of Rants)
Transcript
- There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript. Alicia Katz Pollock: In this edition of the unofficial QuickBooks accountants podcast, I'm joined by Veronica Wasek, and we are going to spin our wheel of rants and see what topic we're actually going to go riff off of today. Hi, Veronica. Veronica Wasek: I'm doing great. Alicia, how are you? Alicia Katz Pollock: I'm doing really good. I just got off of [00:00:30] a spring break road trip, taking my daughter down to the Bay area to go look at colleges, and we visited Stanford and UC Berkeley and Davis and I had some clients, um, some of the members of my royal wise owls live in, in Davis. So we actually got to go meet some of my students. And I got to go take a tour of the Intuit campus. I got to go see Kimberly M's bar, and, uh, Ted Callahan and, um, Jim Zonza Zanza and [00:01:00] Eric Foster and some of the development team, and I got to prototype some of the new features that are coming out. So. Veronica Wasek: Oh how exciting. Alicia Katz Pollock: It was super fun. It was super fun. My daughter got to see the campus too, so now she has kind of a bigger context for all the hard work that I put in, trying to teach people how to use QuickBooks and how to love and do it. Veronica Wasek: Yeah, it's a beautiful campus and I have visited before as part of accountant council, and it's amazing just all the things they do to innovate. [00:01:30] Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah, it's a really beautiful place and it's really inspirational walking around there because they have all of their their mottos and I wish I had the list in front of me. But it's all about customer service and innovation and it's really just positive and uplifting. So I really came off of it, you know, super happy. Veronica Wasek: I'm glad you had a chance to go there. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Me too. All right. So since that was all my positives, let's do our wheel of rants. Like, what? Can we. Veronica Wasek: Yes. I'm [00:02:00] ready. Alicia Katz Pollock: Let's go talk about today. All right. So. All right, let's go. Spin the wheel. Oh, there's a good topic. Okay. Veronica, are you ready for this one? Veronica Wasek: Yes. Alicia Katz Pollock: The 20 things that accountants should never do. Veronica Wasek: Oh, my goodness, is it only 20? Because, you know, we could keep going for a very long time, but. Alicia Katz Pollock: All right. Veronica Wasek: So let's. Alicia Katz Pollock: Let's not put a number on it okay. We're either going to go off [00:02:30] on ten things or. Come up with 50. Who knows. Veronica Wasek: Um yeah we'll see. But yes that's that's a very exciting topic. Um, and something that we can definitely talk a lot about. Alicia Katz Pollock: Okay. So let's see if we can come up with 20 things that accountants should never do. Veronica Wasek: Well, let me start. I will start. Alicia Katz Pollock: Okay. Veronica Wasek: Go ahead with the first one is allowing clients to control the work that we do and really treating us as employees. Alicia Katz Pollock: What do you mean by that? Veronica Wasek: Well, [00:03:00] um, I think especially when accountants and bookkeepers are are getting started, and maybe they've they have come from a background of being an employee that then they treat their clients as an employer. And so if the client says, well, hey, just go in there and maybe reconcile things or just clean up the chart of accounts and, and you think, oh, they must know what they're talking about. And that must be the only cleanup I need to do, for example, that [00:03:30] you don't realize that the client really shouldn't be directing the work that you do. Um, in my opinion, there should be proper diagnosis done by by us as accountants and then really giving the client our recommendations, you know, findings and recommendations, and then coming up with a roadmap for either getting the books cleaned up, set up, whatever it is, even taxes to really then [00:04:00] collaborate with the client rather than letting them control the process. Alicia Katz Pollock: So it's kind of like, are you that I think what you said that right at the end is the important part, like controlling the process. Are you the person leading the charge or are you following orders that if you're a bookkeeper with your own firm or your own practice, you should be the one guiding the narrative? If you are just doing whatever the client tells you, then that's actually a sign that you're actually an employee, not a contractor. Veronica Wasek: Correct? Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. [00:04:30] All right. That's a great one. Okay. Oh, here's one, um, giving legal advice or tax advice. Veronica Wasek: Oh my goodness. Yes. That's the top of my list. Alicia Katz Pollock: Um, and you know, like, sometimes when I see a client who's not doing something right, whether we're talking ethical and, and legal or we're talking about, you know, their, They're how they're categorizing things on their taxes as a bookkeeper. [00:05:00] The role is recording. Recording transactions and recording activity and then sure, giving guidance about that activity. You know, what are you seeing and what recommendations can you make? But if you don't have a law degree and if you don't have a tax designation, then the advice that you're giving you can't actually back up and stand by. Veronica Wasek: Most definitely. And and on top of that, what I see a lot in, uh, some [00:05:30] of the, um, bookkeeper forums, uh, on Facebook and others is that bookkeepers are then asking for for. Oh, well, for example, my client asked if I, if he needs to set up an LLC and then they will go and ask that in a bookkeeping group or even if they asked it in a legal group. Well, first of all, now you don't have the the skills and shouldn't be advising the client on that, but then you can't rely on someone [00:06:00] else that you don't know to tell you whether your client should be setting up an LLC or not. And then the other thing that I see, and it happened a lot with to me when I had my bookkeeping firm, was that, yes, you have this very close relationship with the client. They see you and or talk to you on a very regular basis. And so of course they're going to come to you and ask you, should I do this? Can I do that? What's best for my company? And [00:06:30] and there are situations in which then, yes, we can turn some of those opportunities into advisory opportunities if we're staying within our wheelhouse. But for tax matters and legal matters, we need to be comfortable with just saying, hey, that's outside of what I do, but you need to ask your attorney this question or you need to ask your tax professional. And one of the things that I would do with my clients, just because a lot of the questions [00:07:00] were similar, for example, maybe asking about, well, how do I pay myself since I have an S corporation. And so what I would typically say is, generally speaking, you should be taking a reasonable salary, but you need to contact your CPA and ask them these questions. And I would try to give them actually the right words to to use to ask their CPA the proper question. Alicia Katz Pollock: I [00:07:30] think it's a really good idea that as professionals, we have a go to source for that kind of thing. Like I have a subscription with Legal Shield. And so when I have questions, you know, it's ostensibly about my own company, but I have a resource that I can go to and for taxes. You know, I definitely can't give tax advice myself, but if I need clarification myself, I'm am a member of Nancy McClellan's ask a CPA and that, you know, because I don't do taxes, I don't I'm not an E, I [00:08:00] don't I have no tax training. So I but there are times when I do need to know the tax implications of my work. And so I head over to ask a CPA. Com um with Nancy's group, um, and, and have that resource there. So even though you're still not we shouldn't be giving those legal advice. We should be turning them over to their professional, because every business should have their own lawyer and have their own accountant. Um, at least there's places where we can get some of that education [00:08:30] besides asking in a Facebook forum. Veronica Wasek: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that even though we shouldn't be giving that level of advice, we should be educated on some of the types of questions that will come our way. And I think the reason that we see people trying to, to be helpful to the client is they don't actually realize that's outside of their wheelhouse, or they're trying to seem helpful, or even they may be [00:09:00] concerned that, well, the client won't like me because I, you know, I don't know the answer to such and such, when really it's it's a question they shouldn't be asking you. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. I did actually notice that one of the big four just opened up a legal company, um, to go along with their accounting company, and to me, that seems like double dipping in a way. So. Yeah. Yeah. Veronica Wasek: Well, I have one. Taking a client when you lack the required skills. [00:09:30] Alicia Katz Pollock: That's a super important one because some people and you know, I'm guilty of this like learning on the fly and learning on the job, but that isn't necessarily the right thing to do for our clients. Veronica Wasek: Yes. And and I can understand, um, you know, Especially when when bookkeepers and accountants are getting started. And and yes, you need the clients, you need the money and you want to take on any kind of [00:10:00] client. But there are certain industries, certain types of clients that, um, are more complex. And either you're going to have to to find someone who can train you on some of these, like, um, niche type industries, or maybe find a course or find something, um, to get your skill set to that level. So for example, e-commerce accounting is is complex. And you do some of that too. Um, Alicia. And [00:10:30] it's not something that, um, you can just take on that client and figure it out yourself. I mean, you you'll probably have to invest some time, either on a course or, um, YouTube videos or, or find a mentor who can guide you. Um, nonprofit is another also that I see a lot of questions in in the Facebook groups of hey, I have a non a non profit who approached me. Is it very much different from for profit accounting? Yes. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. [00:11:00] You don't know what you don't know. I think actually in one of my very first classes that I ever taught, I was teaching classes in one of my courses that I was teaching, I was teaching how to use classes. And I knew, like, just the bare bones of how it worked for nonprofits. And I had the audacity to put four non-profits on the title of the course when I released it. And that lasted about a week, and I went, you know, there's a lot more to it than this. And I'm going to I'm going to pull that, that title down and create a separate nonprofit content [00:11:30] instead. So, you know, and it's key because whether you're talking an industry vertical, there's certain things that you need to know about a certain industry or, you know, or a style of accounting like nonprofit accounting. But then there's also not knowing what you don't know about QuickBooks that a lot of beginning bookkeepers think that using QuickBooks is just simply putting the correct expenses in the right categories, in the right buckets. But there's so much more that you need to know. And I encourage every all the beginners [00:12:00] who are out there listening to at least recognize when you don't know something. Alicia Katz Pollock: Because if you know that you don't know it, you can go find those answers. And then you you can do some learning on the job as you're doing the work. But if you aren't aware that you're missing something, you are going to be an expensive mistake for that, for the owner, that somebody is going to have to come in after you and repeat your work. And I don't want anybody listening to this to be in that position. [00:12:30] So make sure that you, um, head to all the different training resources that we talk about all the time to really learn what it is that you're supposed to be doing. The basic certification, the level one certification from Intuit is your starting point. But all that shows is that you know where the buttons are to click. It doesn't show that you know how to do the bookkeeping or what to do in creative situations. And that's where Intuit's bookkeeping certification comes in. And Intuit's Level two certification comes in. [00:13:00] And then both Veronica and I have training programs really dive down into the nitty gritty details of really getting the work done. So get training. Veronica Wasek: Yeah. I mean, really, um, like you said, Alicia, that there's so much to learn. And, uh, when you get to the point where you have enough of that, that foundation of knowledge, where you can then tailor the tools that you have at your disposal to fit that particular [00:13:30] client's needs. Alicia Katz Pollock: Mhm. Okay. Here's here's one that I saw go by, um, on Facebook recently doing work for free. Veronica Wasek: Oh yes. Alicia Katz Pollock: I mean, whether it's sometimes a beginning bookkeeper that doesn't have a lot of experience, will offer to do some of these bookkeeping for free. And, you know, if you don't know what you're doing, then it's good that somebody's not paying you for it until you figure it out on your own. And so, you know, I think [00:14:00] that sometimes there's some cases for volunteering, but if you're facing scope creep, that's completely different. Veronica Wasek: Absolutely. And I think that it is a problem, I think in our industry for for those beginner bookkeepers who need and want that experience and and I hear you, I have been there. We've been there. Um, but offering to work for free, I think, devalues [00:14:30] our industry as a whole because there's already issues with pricing, but it also devalues you because whoever would want, let's say, a business owner who would allow you to do something for free for them doesn't value you either. And so while I have seen some people who said, you know what, I did the work for free for my first five clients and I, it was training for me and it was great. And then [00:15:00] I, you know, things took off and I had confidence. Maybe it works. But I think overall you have to have to be very careful. And it would not be my go to just because, again, I think it devalues our industry and, and and really even for me as an employer, I would never have anyone work for me if I did not pay pay them. I think it would say something about me and it wouldn't be good. Alicia Katz Pollock: There's also something to be said if you are either working for free, basically as a [00:15:30] volunteer, or if you give them a very, very low price. What are you going to do when it's time to actually write price, you're going to be sending them from zero to, you know, hundreds, hundreds of dollars a month. And then they might go well. But if you were willing to do it for free, why would I pay you 500 bucks a month to do it right? And that's where it gets challenging. Veronica Wasek: And speaking of doing work for free, I have one. Alicia, marking down your invoices. Alicia Katz Pollock: You [00:16:00] mean like giving discounts? Veronica Wasek: Well, actually, more like, um. And this was back when I used to charge clients by the hour, and I would, let's say I did an entire cleanup, and and I was tracking my time. And so let's say that my fee was $10,000 based on all the time that I spent on it. And I need to invoice the client. But you know what? I don't think they're going to pay me $10,000, so I'm just going to charge them 5000. [00:16:30] Alicia Katz Pollock: Yikes. Veronica Wasek: And I did that quite a bit. I no longer do that because I learned to get paid in advance. But, um, there are still bookkeepers and accountants charging by the hour. And then when you get to, you know, the time that you need to invoice for your work, you just mark it down and and again, you're devaluing yourself and and your skills. Alicia Katz Pollock: Well, I mean, for for me and I don't know if I'm a specific use [00:17:00] case or not, but I do work hourly because a lot of what I do is troubleshooting and cleanups. And, you know, with the cleanup, I never know what I'm going to get until I'm in there. And so for me, I, I don't, um, pre I give a price range, not a specific price but I do pre invoice, you know in stages. But my point is that when I'm doing a project I always tell people, well if we're if we hit over five hours then I'll go ahead and I'll give you a discount. [00:17:30] But what I did to compensate is I, I charge $300 an hour, like I charge what I consider a reasonably high rate. Although some people like Hector are like, Lisa, your prices are too low. And I'm like, they're okay. I'm okay with this, believe me. Um, but by pricing on at an hourly rate, that's a little uncomfortably high for me, sometimes that allows me to give a discount. And then I feel like everybody wins. I'm still getting a satisfactory rate, [00:18:00] and they feel good because I gave them a little bit off the top. But if I was charging kind of a standard mid-level rate, I would never be able to introduce that dynamic. And so that's a good reason if you do have to charge hourly because of the nature of the work you're doing, charge a high rate and then discount. Don't devalue the work. And especially like you said, don't think, oh, that's a lot of money for that client to pay. That's their business, not yours. [00:18:30] Veronica Wasek: Exactly. And that's more of what I'm getting to, is that we out of fear and insecurity, that we mark something down or even, um, one thing that I've learned is that we tend to project our own feelings and emotions about money to our clients and then think that, oh, they will never pay that and mark it down without even attempting to invoice the client and then maybe having a discussion, um, to where you [00:19:00] agree on, on something that is reasonable for, for both parties. Alicia Katz Pollock: I mean, even if you're looking at their balance sheet and you know that there's not a lot of cash on cash in the bank and you're like, I don't want them to put this on their credit card, because then they'll have to owe that that again, not your business. They may have funding sources outside. If they know they need your services, they value you enough to pay what you quoted them. So stick to what you quoted them. Veronica Wasek: Yeah. Yeah. And I think the key is to, as you said, Alicia, in [00:19:30] that, um, in that situation or that type of, of billing model is to give the client a range upfront so that then they have an expectation. And there. And if it's not something they can afford or want to pay, then you don't start the work. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah, exactly. Okay. What's next? Veronica Wasek: Well, uh, how about having direct access to the client's bank accounts or their bill payment? Alicia Katz Pollock: You're going to make me first. Veronica Wasek: One that I like, that I. I get [00:20:00] on my soapbox about this one, but the reason why it, to me, uh, is so important is to protect the client. Just because, as you I'm sure you have seen Alicia, so many instances where, um, that we see small business owners being the victims of embezzlement and they don't know. Remember, we talked earlier about. You don't know what you don't know. A lot of clients just don't know that, you know, really, [00:20:30] I don't need to be giving my bookkeeper my banking credentials. And many of them, just like, here you go. Like, I'll just give you my credentials. And so as a policy at Maven, see, we never would have direct access to our clients, um, to our clients banking credentials. And also because we had six employees. So and even though we had, um, we were using Zoho Vault to [00:21:00] store all the passwords, we just thought that that's just not something that we would want to do. Um, just because, you know, you never want, um, employees to have that level of access just because you never know what's going to happen in their lives when they're going to start justifying that, hey, I, I, you know, I'll just take $500 and I'll put it back later. And, oh, God, I had a client that, um, I'm sure it started like that with their actually their in-house bookkeeper. And then, [00:21:30] uh, the, the that person ended up embezzling $8 million. Alicia Katz Pollock: Oh. Holy moly. All right. Well, so so this is one of those places where it's like, you know, do a do what I say, not what I do, because I have to admit that I actually do have access to my clients bank accounts. Um, I try to get read only access for the banks. That will give us just a read only. Um, but I [00:22:00] frequently find that I do need to log into clients accounts because I need to either see see their, their checks. If the if QuickBooks doesn't have show the attachments or they're not reliable for getting me statements, and then I wind up not being able to do any work or getting getting stuck a lot. And so at Royal Wise, what I do is I have a one password vault that nobody has access to except for me and my contracted bookkeeper, [00:22:30] and nobody else has access to it. And we have in my engagement letter specific language that we will not do anything. We don't do any AP, we don't do any AR. In my firm at all. So we have no reason to do any of the work on behalf of the client. So. That's what we do is we have a clause from a lawyer in our engagement letter saying that we have. Access to your bank accounts. But we will [00:23:00] never take any action either on your behalf at your. Even at your request, we just flat out won't do it. But that allows us to gain get the information that we need. Veronica Wasek: Yeah, and it's a challenge just because not every bank or credit card allows you to have read only access. And so then it does slow things down. And especially I would think with your micro clients that you know. You just need to get in and out and get get what you need. But it is something that I think [00:23:30] again. If you don't know what you don't know, for a lot of bookkeepers that the the go to for the client in many cases is like, hey, I'll just set you up with with my online banking or with my bill pay and it and the go to for bookkeeper should be no, that's not not what I would prefer to do. And especially even paying bills on behalf of clients if they're not using an app where you can have the proper controls. And in fact, that may [00:24:00] even see we stopped paying bills on or doing bill payment services for clients. But when we did, the the client would actually release the payments. So we actually never touched any money directly or indirectly. The client would have to go in, review the the bills, the bills that were set up to be paid and then release the payments. Alicia Katz Pollock: That's a really good policy to put into place. Oh, I've got one. Um, [00:24:30] the bane of my existence is my emails Else. And I when I do have to talk to a client, my email is absolutely my least favorite way of doing it. For me, I'm afraid that I'm going to get the response buried and not even see it. So I prefer to use keeper or even some of the in-app communications right inside QuickBooks online. And there's other apps out there too, like Lycia, that are designed to manage your company emails inside a dedicated [00:25:00] space. Veronica Wasek: Yes, and email has become very clunky from from that standpoint of just communication with the client. When you have a team, it's very difficult then for, okay, well, did the email go to so-and-so? And so-and-so is now on vacation and we can't get to to their email. Um, so yes, we moved all the communication over to keeper, which is much more streamlined. And another reason to not communicate with clients through email is because there are so [00:25:30] many email scams going on right now to where you you think you're talking to your client and they are not your client. It's just I don't know if it's a bot or somebody somewhere. And, uh, and then going back to when you're paying bills on behalf of clients without the proper controls, if you get this email from a client saying, like, I need you to pay such and such, uh, vendor $20,000, and you do that, and then you realize that that was not your client asking you to do [00:26:00] that. And that has happened. I have seen that happen. And, um, that's one of the reasons why Maven see, we said we cannot communicate with clients through email anymore. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Uh, I just had something really interesting happen that wasn't a direct email scam, but somebody came onto my Facebook group training for QuickBooks users and asked for help, that they were having trouble logging in. And I'm like, well, go ahead and reset your password. And he was like, well, I'm not sure exactly [00:26:30] how to go about doing that. And I'm like, well, So I started giving them instructions for it, and then it started feeling really fishy to me. And I said, well, you know, what's your what's your login, what's your email address? And so I took that email and I emailed the person and said, um, somebody's trying to log into your account and asking for my help. Is it you? And then the person wrote back and said, yes, it's me. But it still felt fishy. And I realized that I think they broke [00:27:00] into somebody's email and that I was still talking to the fraud person, not just on Facebook, but through their email. And so I actually turned them into fraud at Intuit QuickBooks and, and let them know that somebody's trying to hack into somebody's account. Veronica Wasek: I'm glad that you trusted your instincts on that, because that nowadays, and especially with our useful or helpful nature, that we want to help someone because they're having issues. But, um, no. And there are so many scams happening. And [00:27:30] in fact, one of my clients was a victim of an email scam with a vendor. So he thought he was communicating with his vendor. And and then there was a balance sort of in the millions of dollars, by the way, a balance owed to the vendor. And so the client received banking instructions like send an ACH to such and such. And so he sent, um, I'm just going to say a couple of million dollars to [00:28:00] this, the fraudulent vendor, and then couldn't do anything about it because of all the whatever the how they erase their trail through banking and such. I don't know how it works, but it was terrible. Alicia Katz Pollock: Oh that's. Veronica Wasek: Horrible. That's heartbreaking. You can put a company out of business. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Veronica Wasek: Doing that and and, um. Yeah, he was going to pursue that legally. But you have again, you have to be so careful nowadays, right? Well, I have [00:28:30] one. Alicia Katz Pollock: What's that? Veronica Wasek: Not using engagement letters. Alicia Katz Pollock: That's a good one. Yeah. Alicia Katz Pollock: I just started using engagement letters myself. Only in the last three, maybe about three years ago. And they're so helpful. I mean, this is kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier, about not working for free and direct access to the bank accounts. Your engagement letters, when you communicate with your client and lay out what your [00:29:00] services are, what are you going to do? What are you not going to do? How much are you going to charge them? When are you going to charge them? What are your responsibilities and what are their responsibilities? Veronica Wasek: Absolutely. And that's I had to learn the hard way when in when I had started my, my bookkeeping business and, you know, just working on a handshake and, and and probably billing by the hour back then. And [00:29:30] so you're right that the engagement letter just it it really sets the tone for the entire relationship. And it puts those boundaries, uh, initial boundaries with the client. And so, um, I mean, many, many times when a client would come back and say, well, I thought you were going to do x, y, z. Well, no, if you look at the engagement letter, which you signed, uh, it listed exactly what I said I would do, and that is not on that list or. Well, you said you would do such and such. Well, again, no. [00:30:00] Look at the engagement letter. That's not what I agreed to do. And we also learned the hard way to add wording to that engagement letter to be able to get out of the engagement, because, um, we had several cleanup clients that they would once I learned to get paid in advance, they would pay in advance, like, say 50% in advance, and then we'd get a few things from them. And then it was [00:30:30] crickets. We we never heard from them. We would contact them week after week after week and just keep checking like, hey, you know, are you there? And finally decided that, you know what if if a client disappears and we have tried to contact them for three months, we will end the engagement and we're under no obligation to give them any money back. Alicia Katz Pollock: Right? Veronica Wasek: So we added that wording as well as even we had some clients that would sign engagement [00:31:00] letters and then decide. I've decided to cancel the service. And can you give me my money back? Uh, and so again, to add some stronger language of, okay, once you're you engage us, you don't get to cancel or at least we'll have a conversation about it. But, um, yeah, there's there's a lot that you can add to the engagement letters to protect you and to set those boundaries. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Alicia Katz Pollock: What we did is we kind of made a blanket template [00:31:30] for our engagement letters for like, every contingency. And then we sent them over to Legalshield and had a contract lawyer review it and suggest wording or anything that we needed to clarify. And then we just modify that for each of the engagements so that we have our legalese in there as well. And that's been really helpful. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yes. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. One of the other things that I do with my engagement letters is I also review them every year. So when I do, my annual [00:32:00] increase is not in January but after tax season. So okay, we finished tax season. It's now March. Now it's time to review all of our contracts. And I look and see if their scope has changed. How many checking accounts did I agree to and how many do they have now? You know, are they asking us to do more, um, more bill pay or more cleanup or whatever it is? And then I compare to what we said we would do, and then that gives us a tangible reason for raising our prices. Instead of just like a cost of living [00:32:30] increase every year, sometimes we can come back and say, well, now it's actually going to cost you $200 more. And here's why. Here's what you signed. Here's the new one, and we'll send them out a revised contract and get a new start, basically starting fresh with the new contract. Veronica Wasek: That's a great approach. Alicia Katz Pollock: Well, we've been talking a lot about about security and about fraud. So there's another one for bookkeepers is how are you keeping track of your own login credentials [00:33:00] and your own passwords? Veronica Wasek: Yes. And, you know, there was a time probably when I had these on yellow stickies somewhere when I first started, because there might have been just like 2 or 3. And that was a simpler time even. But I mean, not that I'm saying use yellow stickies, but, um, nowadays with, uh, you need to have unique passwords for everything that you're using. And, you know, with many clients, you may have multiple apps that you're using as well. And then you may have [00:33:30] team members or contractors that you're working with. And so it's really important to store those, those login credentials in such a way that your team members will never actually see the login credentials. Um, we as I said before, we use Zoho Zoho Vault to store all of the credentials so that the team members could go in and access all of the different, um, apps and, and, um, [00:34:00] different logins that they needed, but they never could see them. Alicia Katz Pollock: Mmhmm. Alicia Katz Pollock: And we use one password, myself. And the reason why I love it, like I mentioned earlier, is that we can make different vaults on a need to know basis so that everybody has their there's shared ones for all the things the team needs. And there's an admin vault for all the things that only the, the, the C-suite needs. And then there's the bookkeeping fault for each client. Like, I don't even have a an overall a bookkeepers [00:34:30] vault. I have a separate vault for anybody on any of the bookkeepers that I work with. So they only have access to the logins that they themselves are supposed to have. Veronica Wasek: And that's great. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Veronica Wasek: Well, I have another one. Alicia Katz Pollock: Oh. What you got? Veronica Wasek: Taking on a client without properly vetting that client. Oh, and I'm a big believer in diagnosing. Let's do a paid diagnostic first before we just take on this client. And we [00:35:00] don't know what we're getting into. We don't even know. Do they want to pay us or not? Um, and so for me, doing that paid diagnostic review first is a smaller engagement. It allows me to to know what the client is really like to work with. Because if you're going to work with a client who will never give you anything that you need, at least that would be a smaller engagement where you've tested them out. And also from the standpoint of, as [00:35:30] we said before, that you don't know what you don't know that it's better to go through a diagnostic process and then assess what the client needs and then assign them up for other services. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Alicia Katz Pollock: I can't bring somebody on unless I have had that initial needs assessment, at least for the bookkeeping side. If it's clean up, I can usually dive right in. Um, but if it's if it's going to be something that has any kind of scope or scale to it, we always [00:36:00] have that initial appointment. And what I do is I record it either, um, a zoom video or I use Fathom Video, which also gives us a transcript of it. And then because it's a paid diagnostic, I and I also have a needs assessment spreadsheet. And so because they've paid me for it, I will give them all of those things so that that's their there. That's what they get in their hands. And then if they decide not to go with me, they've still got value. They've still got something that they can take to the next person. So [00:36:30] that's that's my approach on that. Veronica Wasek: That's great. Well, and you are a superstar and can take on those cleanups without diagnosing. But I would say for for newer bookkeepers that it's better if they go through a diagnostic process. Alicia Katz Pollock: Well, and when I say that, I realize that when I said that, that probably wasn't completely accurate because I still have to do the needs assessment. But sometimes if I can just see it instantly, we'll start working on it right then and there. And that's kind of what I mean more than. Veronica Wasek: Yes. [00:37:00] Veronica Wasek: Well, and I'm sure you've done probably hundreds of cleanups by now. And yes, you can definitely spot those that I call them, the tip of the iceberg issues that really let you know that. Yeah, there's more here. Alicia Katz Pollock: Right. Alicia Katz Pollock: But that's also, like you said, the tip of the iceberg. That's also why I won't do I won't I usually don't start without a full needs assessment and the hourly with the intended scope, because it's when you get down to those last five transactions that [00:37:30] just don't fit. The the last puzzle piece doesn't fit in the puzzle and they're like, oh yeah, I have those other three credit cards that I just don't use. Veronica Wasek: Yep. Veronica Wasek: Yep. Veronica Wasek: I'm not sure why I'm laughing because it's laughable, but it's not funny. Alicia Katz Pollock: That is so common. So common. Yes. Okay. Alicia Katz Pollock: What else? Veronica Wasek: How about being overly dependent on one client financially over the. Yeah. Overly dependent. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. [00:38:00] Alicia Katz Pollock: That's interesting because there's different styles of bookkeeping firms. There's some that have massive amounts of small clients, and then there's some that just have 1 or 2 or a handful of really large clients. And that's one of those put your eggs in the in all all your eggs in one basket scenario. Veronica Wasek: Yes. And I think that having been in that situation, it's great when you're, you know, you maybe have three clients that are, are, you know, writing you big checks, but you [00:38:30] run that risk of, well, what if one out of those three leaves and now and you were financially dependent on that client? And I think that's where we have to be careful. It's great to have those big clients and, and to um, and actually even to have that, that level of expertise to where you're working with those bigger clients. But you should not be financially dependent just because if one leaves, then you're in a lot of trouble. Or [00:39:00] sometimes what I see, um, in have heard from other bookkeepers is that, well, I would love to let go of this client, but I can't because I need the money. And that's a terrible position to to be in. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Now, I am a big believer in the faith in karma, and that when one door closes, another one opens. And so if you are in that situation where you have a really large client that you're dependent on, and either they [00:39:30] let you go or you just find it toxic and you don't want to stay there, I don't recommend staying. I do recommend letting them go because that just opens up, you know, fresh air for you to find what's next and who's next. And they will come. And it's scary to be in that situation. But, you know, trust the unknown. You will find a better engagement and preferably more money than you were getting on that one. Or you fill in one large client [00:40:00] with a couple smaller clients, but it definitely creates a more of a challenge. Veronica Wasek: Absolutely. And yeah, I'm sure you've been there. I have been there and and, uh, when you let go or, you know, when that those, uh, openings exist that usually you're right, you do get a better client and have the, um, especially if you were working with a difficult client and they're gone because now you have so much more mental [00:40:30] energy to devote to better clients. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of maybe bad clients, how about acting as an unpaid therapist? Alicia Katz Pollock: Well, I kind of consider myself a bookkeeping therapist. Veronica Wasek: Oh, there you go. Alicia Katz Pollock: Um, I know that when when my when I work with my clients, if they're having trouble with something, I can usually give them an answer, either based on their books or sometimes based on [00:41:00] my worldly words of wisdom. Um, but I definitely don't take on their issues. So I you know what? Whatever words they need that will help them feel better and focus them or solve their problem. I think that that's really important, I think. Is it Alexis Saddler, somebody calls themselves bookkeeping therapy is the the name or accounting therapy is the name of their, their company. But the emotional [00:41:30] boundaries piece is the really important one is you can't take on somebody else's trauma. Veronica Wasek: Yeah. And I think that's you're right about the emotional boundary is that we have to have those boundaries because again, clients, um, reach out to us. We again, we have that closer relationship with them as opposed to other service providers most of the time. But um, yeah, where it gets unhealthy is when all of a sudden, an hour [00:42:00] later, I'm still listening to their problems. And, and then it's they become overly emotionally dependent on you. And I used to have a client that would do that. And I felt so guilty to, well, okay, I can't get any work done because I'm talking to this person three times a week and they keep me on for at least an hour. So I just learned to, um, kind of when they would reach out, just to let them know that, hey, I'd love to talk to you, but I [00:42:30] have a meeting in 15 minutes, and and it was a meeting with myself. I felt bad about, like, I don't want to lie, but. But it just got to a point. It wasn't healthy. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Or build it into your billing. I mean, I had I had one client who, um, it was a husband and wife team, and he was running the business, and she was doing the books, and she was seeing that the business practices were not getting them where they needed to be. But [00:43:00] he was not respecting her opinion or listening to her. And it made me realize that their whole business actually was precluded by their personal relationship, which wasn't really working. And so that was kind of a tricky situation for me to be in, because the last thing that I should be doing as a bookkeeper is giving them marital advice. And she kept wanting, prodding me into like, helping with that. I'm like, no. Veronica Wasek: You don't want to do that. Well, Alicia, [00:43:30] I don't know if we're up to 20 or or not, but, um, maybe let's just do one more. What do you think? How about talking about one client to another client? Um, and and maybe the other client's new bookkeeper. Um, I see that happen quite a bit. Where, uh, let's say that the client let you go as their bookkeeper and found a new bookkeeper, [00:44:00] and they want you to, like, be available to this new bookkeeper and answer all their questions, maybe even train them. But sometimes the new bookkeeper just calls you out of the blue asking questions, but you don't have authorization from your prior client to talk to the new bookkeeper. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah, it's you know, confidentiality is really important. And so making sure that it's okay with the business side if [00:44:30] they're talking to you and vice versa. And also like, is that in your scope and are you getting paid for your advice. Um, but in that situation, if somebody lets you go and then calls you up to get help. I personally am one for taking the high road and turning it into another engagement to continue to give them the the help and not what what you never want to do is throw somebody under the bus. You never, ever, [00:45:00] ever talk badly about either the business owner or a bookkeeper to another business owner or another bookkeeper. And I'm a huge proponent of the four agreements Be impeccable with your word. But if you are saying things that are negative, you don't know who knows who. You don't know what their relationships are, and it says way more about you than it does about them. Veronica Wasek: I completely agree, and even I [00:45:30] have been in situations where let's say that I had a client and it was a partnership, and partner A was not doing what they were supposed to be, and partner B wants to know if partner A is not doing or why we let go of a client just because we were dealing with the one partner that was not giving us anything that we asked for. But the partner who signed the engagement letter was the other partner, and so I had to then terminate [00:46:00] the relationship with the the partner that we didn't deal with a lot. And he's just asking, well, why are you letting us go? And and I just thought, uh, you know, I would rather this client think badly of me for for leaving them, you know. Without a bookkeeper than to attack the other partner or to tattletale or just to say, well, oh, so-and-so didn't give us what we needed. Alicia Katz Pollock: Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Well, that was a really great list. I mean, maybe we need a part two on this one. I [00:46:30] think so. Veronica Wasek: I think we have more. Alicia Katz Pollock: Well, excellent. Well. So, Veronica, let's wrap up. What's going on in your world? Veronica Wasek: Well, um, you know, we talked about engagement letters earlier and, uh, having boundaries with clients, and I just wanted to talk about one of my, uh, my courses is it's more of a resource in which, um, we actually give you all of the templates, uh, for our engagement letters. So for cleanups, diagnostic [00:47:00] reviews, monthly work, and then the, the templates include all of that additional language that I talked about, uh, where. Okay, if I need to let go of the client because they they haven't responded or, you know, many other situations in which, um, you know, out of just learning those, those those lessons, those hard lessons along the way, we added additional wording to the engagement letter. So that's at five Academy.com. Alicia Katz Pollock: So we [00:47:30] will definitely make sure to have that link in the show notes as well. Veronica Wasek: Great. What's going on with you Alicia? Alicia Katz Pollock: Well, I'm excited to announce that I am going to be doing a 2025 version of my QuickBooks online hands on training course, which we did in October and November last year as an eight week course, and we are expanding it from July 21st all the way into October as a 12 week course. And [00:48:00] it's going through the textbook that I wrote for Kristeva Consultants. So it's 12 weeks Mondays and Wednesdays, two three hour sessions where we literally go through how to use QuickBooks online. Click by click and step by step. We use Craig's Landscaping as the basis for the lessons. And then every student gets a sample company that they literally build the sample company from scratch in real life case scenarios. And so, um, we're really [00:48:30] super looking forward to that course. Um, and it was so successful last time out that people said, well, actually some of the students were like, can we take it again? So we are offering it up again. So we'll have registration open for that shortly. Veronica Wasek: That's fantastic. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Well, Veronica, thank you very much for ranting with me this morning. Um, this is Alicia Katz Pollock. Veronica Wasek: And I'm Veronica Masek, and we will see you on the next one. [00:49:00]