Latest / The Future Herd / 22: Rethinking Rural Food Security with Rob Rainer

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22: Rethinking Rural Food Security with Rob Rainer · The Future Herd

0:01
Jesse Hirsh: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.
0:04
Welcome to the Future Herd.
0:16
Today's episode continues our deep dive into food insecurity.
0:21
Except with this episode, we're gonna focus on the rural dynamics.
0:26
I mean, let's face it, a lot of the talk around food insecurity focuses
0:30
on cities, focuses on the visible manifestations of whether it's food
0:36
insecurity, whether it's homelessness, whether it's mental health issues.
0:41
It's a lot easier to see that stuff in the city than it is in rural communities.
0:47
And that's why I really enjoyed this conversation with Rob Raynor, not
0:51
just because it kind of brought it home to my own community, but because
0:56
it provides us with a different lens of the food insecurity crisis
1:01
that's happening presently in Canada.
1:04
And Rob brings a multidisciplinary perspective.
1:08
On the one hand, he's leading the local food security organisation in
1:15
Perth, in Lanter County, but he's also the reeve of Tay Valley, which is an
1:20
adjacent, largely rural community.
1:23
And this provides him with a lens to, uh, see the situation, I think, in a distinct
1:30
manner compared to some of the louder or more prominent voices in the sector.
1:36
And if anything, it helps us as the future herd get a better grasp on the
1:41
kind of challenges we face and the types of solutions we should be entertaining.
1:47
And where I like to bring policy into every conversation that we
1:51
have here on the Future Heard, this was the first time we got into a
1:56
specific policy that I suspect is gonna be recurring in future episodes.
2:02
A reminder, of course, that we've got a special website,
2:06
commons.thefutureheard.ca, where we're trying to map out different perspectives,
2:12
uh, different opinions, different solutions when it comes to food security.
2:17
And we'd love for you to take a moment while you're listening to this episode
2:22
to go over there and press some buttons.
2:24
Uh, do us a solid, uh, help us get a sense of what you think the key issues are and
2:30
where you stand on them, because that'll certainly influence future programming.
2:35
All right, let's go to the show.
2:37
I
2:46
Rob, welcome to the Future Herd.
2:49
Rob Rainer: Thank you very much, Jess.
2:50
It's a pleasure to be here.
2:52
Jesse Hirsh: Now, I, I like starting with a kind of abstract question
2:56
that's meant to really speak to the intuition or gut response of the guests.
3:01
So don't be intimidated, just answer with whatever comes to mind.
3:05
What does the future mean to you?
3:09
Rob Rainer: Uh, that's a big question for sure.
3:10
The what does the future mean to me?
3:12
Um, obviously the, the future is unknowable and I think that's the.
3:15
The most challenging thing about the future is we just
3:18
don't know what's in store.
3:20
Um, we can hypothesise, we can speculate, we can dream, but it's completely unknown.
3:26
And as you know, from being a human being, you know, from one hour to the
3:32
next, one minute to the next, you know, things happen that are, you didn't expect.
3:37
So, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm hopeful for the future, but
3:42
also very deeply concerned about the TRA trajectory we're on.
3:44
Yeah.
3:45
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
3:46
Right on a, a very balanced and, and appropriate response.
3:50
And I will confess, I've been really looking forward to our conversation
3:54
for a bunch of different reasons, which we'll get to unpack today.
3:57
But one of the biggest is we've been looking at food security here
4:01
on the future herd and, and really trying to wrap our heads around.
4:05
Different elements, uh, that comprise food security here in Canada.
4:10
And a couple of episodes ago, I, I was able to speak with Neil Hetherington
4:14
from the Toronto, uh, daily Food Bank and it kind of gave the big city
4:19
perspective, uh, on food insecurity and kind of the community services there.
4:25
And I was, uh, as a consequence, really excited to talk to you, uh,
4:29
partly because of your role in kind of smaller town, uh, uh, food banks.
4:34
But you also, uh, similarly, uh, have a role in rural, uh, uh, municipal,
4:40
uh, governance and services.
4:43
So that's kind of a, a context setup.
4:45
But of course, like any future herd episode, we do not know the
4:48
tangents we will take and the digressions that we will indulge in.
4:53
But why don't we start with, you know, the usual origin story, which,
4:58
uh, I, I will frame almost equally as vague as my first question.
5:03
Uh.
5:04
Which is, where did you get your sense of social responsibility from?
5:08
and I say this because even though you and I could take for granted,
5:12
uh, as you evoked in your intro, that every human should have it.
5:16
not everyone does, and I think it gives a sense of character.
5:21
Rob Rainer: Yeah, no, for sure.
5:22
It's a great question and I've actually thought about it a lot over my life.
5:25
Um, I, I would pin my social awareness, social conscience largely
5:30
to my, um, maternal grandparents.
5:34
I grew up on the west coast, uh, in North Vancouver.
5:37
And my maternal grandparents lived just outside of Ladysmith
5:40
on, on Vancouver Island.
5:42
And they were blue collar.
5:43
They were working class, they were big, big supporters of the new Democrat party.
5:47
The campaign for, uh, fellow named, uh, Jim Manley, who was, uh, elected member
5:53
of Parliament several times, uh, from that part of, uh, the, the country.
5:58
And um, you know, they would just get themselves very worked up and riled up
6:03
when I would go and visit them in the summertime about the issues of the day.
6:07
Uh, much more so than my own parents would, although my parents
6:10
were socially conscious as well.
6:12
Um, but in particular my maternal grandparents would have conversations
6:16
about the issues of the day and, you know, would express frustration
6:20
as to why aren't things being done a certain way and so forth.
6:23
So I think I just kind of absorbed that without myself being in any
6:27
way active as a teenager, um, on, on any kind of issue that didn't
6:33
come until really my early twenties.
6:36
But that's kind of where I trace it.
6:38
And thankfully, both my parents too were, you know, they, they, they
6:41
read the news, they kept up with what was going on in the world.
6:44
They would talk about issues at the table.
6:47
Um, uh, but yeah, I think that's where, where it began for me.
6:51
I had that exposure to other people who talked about things that
6:56
were beyond themselves, you know?
6:58
Yeah.
6:59
Jesse Hirsh: on.
6:59
And, and you know, as an aside, that's one of the key things, one of
7:02
our recurring threads on, on uh, the podcast is looking at youth leadership
7:07
and how do we empower young people.
7:09
And, and you kind of reminded me that part of it is just inviting them to be part of
7:13
the conversation, inviting them, you know, to be there when we get, uh, excited about
7:18
policy, when we get excited about issues.
7:21
'cause you described a certain kind of an infection.
7:23
Certainly applied in my own family case as well, so I could identify that.
7:28
Now, I, I, I kind of wanna, uh, because there's so much,
7:31
uh, I wanna talk about today.
7:32
I think we are gonna be kind of non-linear in jumping around, but I, I came across
7:36
you, I learned about you, uh, because of your association with the table, uh,
7:41
which is kind of the, uh, community food centre in Perth, Ontario, which is in
7:47
eastern Ontario where I happen to live.
7:49
And, and that's why I looked it up.
7:51
So, uh.
7:52
Rob Rainer: Mm-hmm.
7:53
Jesse Hirsh: Give us a sense of, of the table, uh, kind of what it does
7:57
and perhaps what makes it unique at, at least in the region, if not larger.
8:01
'cause it does seem to have a character, uh, that distinguishes it from some of the
8:06
other organisations active in the sector.
8:09
Rob Rainer: Yeah, for sure.
8:10
So the Table Community Food Centre was initially or was founded as the, uh,
8:15
Perth and District Food Bank in 1998.
8:18
Um, and it, it worked as a food bank, um, for, I guess.
8:23
What, 15 or so years, and then around 2012, um, and I, I've only
8:29
been involved for less than a year with the organisation, but go around
8:32
2011, 2012, people involved at that time, uh, learned about this concept
8:38
of a community food centre, which was pioneered, uh, out of Toronto.
8:43
Um, and, uh, the food bank transitioned to become a community food centre in 2012.
8:51
And the idea is, so we still run it, we still have a food bank.
8:54
It's one of our, it's our biggest programme, but we have other programmes
8:58
as well where food is at, at the core, food that brings people together.
9:02
Like for example, our community meals programme, which is
9:06
Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
9:07
Dinners free, you know, free to anybody in the community
9:09
can just come and share a meal.
9:12
We have a community garden programme.
9:14
We have a children and youth programme.
9:16
Um, uh, we have what we call an advocacy programme, which.
9:21
Uh, where, uh, our staff will provide assistance to people if
9:25
they need help accessing some government programmes and so forth.
9:28
Often those people are coming into the food bank and then they
9:31
learn that, oh, the table can do these other things for me as well.
9:34
And so we try to give them some help.
9:37
We have a satellite programme in Smiths Falls called the Falls Food Hub Programme,
9:41
which is, um, we're just closing in on finalising renovations to a space there.
9:46
And once that space is ready, which should be in late May or uh, early
9:50
June, um, we will start offering a broader array of programmes in
9:55
Smith Falls that are consistent with the community food centre concept.
9:59
There's 18 community food centres in Canada.
10:02
We were the second to be established.
10:04
Most of them are in urban settings, uh, big city settings,
10:07
but there's, uh, several that are in rural communities like ours.
10:10
And then there's four of the 18 are indigenous, uh, led.
10:14
And situated within indigenous communities in different parts of the country.
10:18
And all of it is networked by a group called Right to Food, which
10:22
is the group that started this whole concept of a community food centre.
10:26
And, and, and a big part of it is to, um, work towards empowering
10:32
people, building community, building resilience with food at the core.
10:37
Uh, but it's not, it's not strictly just a food bank where we're just,
10:40
you know, temporarily alleviating.
10:43
Food insecurity.
10:44
We're trying to help help people in a more sustained way so that they can
10:48
hopefully, eventually, um, not be food insecure, uh, and have perhaps not
10:53
only skills and knowledge that they didn't have before to do with food
10:57
or other things, but they've actually built more of a sense of community.
11:01
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
11:01
And, and I, I, I think I wanna unpack a little bit about that network, but at the
11:05
same time, you kind of provide me with an opportunity, you know, you pointed out
11:10
that you've, your relationship, uh, with the tables relatively short, even though
11:14
I, I imagine you've been aware of their.
11:16
Activities, you know, in the area for some
11:19
Rob Rainer: Oh yes.
11:20
Jesse Hirsh: It strikes me that affords you a unique perspective.
11:22
I, I, I love talking to leaders, uh, about their perspective, a kind of
11:26
about what they see as an affordance of their position, but fresh eyes.
11:31
Is it of itself often a very valuable perspective?
11:35
So I'm, I'm kind of curious, were, were there things that you
11:38
didn't expect that surprised you?
11:41
And you know, were there elements in terms of coming in as an
11:45
interim executive director that maybe surprised the organisation?
11:49
Right.
11:50
And, and I say this 'cause it strikes me, that's when there's an
11:52
opportunity to see things differently.
11:55
Rob Rainer: Yeah, no, for sure.
11:56
I'm, I'm actually a big believer in healthy organisational turnover.
12:00
Um, particularly at the top, like every number of years.
12:04
You know, bring in someone new because yeah, they can lend.
12:08
Those fresh set of eyes and maybe bring in some, some practises
12:12
that hadn't been done before.
12:14
So I think there's great value in that.
12:16
Um, I'm not sure if I've, although I didn't know all, I didn't know very
12:21
much about the inner workings of the table prior to coming on in June.
12:24
I, I've been around the, the not-for-profit and charitable
12:27
sector for some time.
12:28
So kind of the nature of not-for-profit and charitable work
12:31
was not at all unfamiliar to me.
12:34
Certainly the work itself has been very challenging, just given
12:37
the external demands, um, maybe even the external expectations on
12:42
a, on an organisation like this.
12:43
'cause we're trying to do so much where we have, we have seven or eight, you
12:46
know, programmes and we have 15, 16 staff.
12:50
But we're situated within a relatively small rural community of a, sort
12:54
of a regional population of 20,000.
12:56
And within that context, there's perhaps only so much sort of
13:01
money that we can raise to support all that we're trying to do.
13:04
So it's, it's the, the magnitude of the challenge of the work has been.
13:09
Not a surprise, but it's been a reality for sure.
13:13
Um, all of our staff do the best they can with the resources they have.
13:17
We're currently working out of the same building where we've
13:19
been for, uh, 14 years now.
13:22
Um, but the building itself has physical constraints in, like, for example, it'd
13:28
be nice to have more space for a larger food bank, more space for more programming
13:33
that we can do with children and youth.
13:35
Uh, a bigger dining hall that we can serve more community meals and so forth.
13:39
So, uh, that's very much on the radar of the board.
13:42
Uh, they're very much aware that our current building has these
13:45
sort of operational constraints.
13:48
Um, but what's been, I guess maybe a bit of a surprise is just the amount of
13:53
community support there is for the table.
13:56
Um, it comes from so many different directions, from small businesses
14:01
that are making contributions, people who are doing food drives.
14:05
Um.
14:06
People who've become monthly donors.
14:08
Uh, it, it's, it's really, it's heartening.
14:10
We, we kinda see that virtually every day.
14:13
Uh, this expression of, of, uh, support and solidarity
14:18
for, for the table's mission.
14:20
And, uh, and that's great.
14:22
And, and hopefully other not-for-profits in our region
14:25
are also seeing the same thing.
14:26
I'm sure they are.
14:27
Big brothers, big sisters, uh, yak the Youth Action Committee group in Perth.
14:33
I'm sure they see very similar things and maybe in a smaller rural community perhaps
14:38
that that kind of thing is a bit more visible because people know each other.
14:40
There's so many connections, so many of us on staff, whereas volunteers also
14:45
know each other from other involvements that we're, we're, we're engaged in.
14:49
So, you know, it's nice.
14:51
I've lived about half my life in small and rural communities and
14:54
the other half in, in urban areas, and I much prefer the small rural.
14:59
Community because of the, the opportunity to meet so many people, get to know
15:02
them and hopefully collaborate.
15:04
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and let's explore that kind of dynamic a little
15:07
in, in the context of both that challenge and opportunity frame.
15:11
Because of the reason as a podcast, we decided to focus in particular on food
15:17
security and conversely food insecurity, we, we are anticipating these things
15:23
kind of getting worse before they get better, you know, because of the nature
15:26
of what's happening in the world.
15:29
And to your point, in an urban environment, while on the one hand it
15:33
might seem like the access to fundraising, the access to supports might be more
15:39
ready, there is the disconnect that is perhaps contrasted in the smaller
15:44
community where you can feel those.
15:47
Pain points, but you can also see the community and touch the community
15:51
and kind of rally the community.
15:53
So give me a sense of how, as an organisation, on the one point, like
15:58
I think you articulate your point of being able to expand the food bank
16:00
as a very tangible kind of challenge that you wrap your head around.
16:05
How, how do you think about moving forward, whether in the short
16:08
term or the long term of, of making, not so much do with less.
16:12
But rising to the challenges that the community faces with the kind of, you
16:18
know, unique constraints, but also unique resources that are available
16:21
in, in a community like Perth.
16:24
Rob Rainer: Yeah.
16:25
Um, very good question.
16:27
Um, in a very tangible sense, our annual budget is around 1.1 million.
16:33
Um, it's grown.
16:34
That's almost double from what it was about 10 or 11 years ago.
16:39
Um.
16:40
In my view, we need to see it get up to 1.5 to 1.6 million.
16:45
So it's a question of how we can do that.
16:47
Where can we find those resources?
16:49
Uh, including not being so dependent on grants, um, from, you know,
16:54
foundations or whatever, uh, because that's so hit, hit or miss.
16:57
And just even the past 10 days or so, we've received rejections
17:01
on several grant applications.
17:02
So how can we build a, a more sustainable.
17:06
Ideally largely regional base of support that's gonna be with us, uh, and allow
17:11
us to offer that much more in services.
17:14
I, I would love to see us undertake a capital campaign to, uh, renovate, uh, and
17:20
perhaps expand our building 'cause there is potential for space expansion, um, and
17:25
undertake renovations so we have a more functional building for our staff, for our
17:29
volunteers, for the people who are coming and using our programmes and services.
17:33
So, um, we are, uh, in the midst of a strategic planning process and at
17:39
this point in time, it looks like the board isn't gonna be quite ready to
17:42
commit to a capital campaign per se.
17:44
Maybe that'll come in about a year's time or so, 'cause we have some
17:47
other sort of foundational things that we're, we're still working on.
17:51
Um, but you know, a lot of this does come down to having enough money to
17:55
be able to do what needs to be done.
17:57
So I'm hoping over the next, you know, one, two or three
18:01
years we can move towards.
18:03
Being ready to undertake a capital campaign and then see that through.
18:07
And then we would, we have, we, we'd have a better space to serve
18:11
the, the regional community.
18:13
We have people coming from, you know, from Smiths Falls, from Lanner, Highlands,
18:18
Drummond, north Elmley, probably some people more in the eastern end of Lanor
18:23
County as well, uh, who are coming to the table for programmes and services.
18:27
And we, you know, we wanna be able to serve as many people as, as possible.
18:31
And I, I, yeah, I do think.
18:32
Given what's going on in the world today, given the trajectories that impact food
18:36
security, unfortunately I see things getting more difficult, uh, not less,
18:41
so we have to try to be ready for that.
18:43
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and to validate what you're saying, certainly there
18:46
there is an obvious need, uh, uh, for a capital campaign for the kind of resources
18:50
that would allow you to expand your facilities and, and serve the community.
18:55
But of course, the other, uh, kind of element of infrastructure in
18:59
the social sector, in a social enterprise is volunteer labour
19:03
and the non-monetary dynamic.
19:07
I'm curious how you guys approach that and, and, and I don't
19:10
exclusively just mean voluntary, I mean non-monetary in the sense that
19:14
there is a wide range of non-monetary contributions and elements that go
19:20
into facilitating community services.
19:24
So I, I'd love to hear how you guys think about that and how you approach it.
19:28
Rob Rainer: Yeah, well, we simply couldn't exist without our volunteer base.
19:32
We have a sizable number of people who volunteer, uh, in the food bank or in our
19:37
community meals programme in our garden at the Falls Food Hub in Smiths Falls.
19:41
Um, I don't have a precise figure, but we're somewhere in the range of
19:44
150 volunteers at any given time.
19:47
Uh, and we have lots of people who express interest in volunteering.
19:50
Then we try to.
19:50
Find a, a good fit for their time, their skills, their
19:54
interest in what we actually need.
19:56
Um, so yeah, again, without, without that base of volunteers, we, we simply
20:01
couldn't be doing anywhere close to what we're, what we're doing.
20:05
Um, and what's kind of neat for me, uh, has been observing how the volunteers
20:10
themselves benefit from that involvement.
20:13
Um, I think without question, for some of them it's an intensely
20:17
positive social time in their week.
20:20
Uh, they look forward to coming into the table.
20:22
They see others who are volunteering and the staff, and there's this camaraderie.
20:26
Um, it can work really, really well.
20:28
And so yeah, volunteers are giving, but they're also receiving a lot.
20:33
And I've heard those kind of comments directly from some volunteers.
20:36
Uh, it's, for some of 'em, I think it's actually the table's actually have kind of
20:40
a linchpin in their lives at, at present.
20:42
It gives them so much meaning.
20:44
Um.
20:46
We have a volunteer, a coordinator, well, it's one of the hats she wears.
20:49
She wears several hats, but her main hat is, is volunteer coordination.
20:53
So her name is Hailey, and she receives the expressions of
20:57
interest from people to volunteer.
20:59
And then we go through a, a process why by which we determine what, what might
21:03
be the best fit for that individual.
21:05
Um, and then once they're aboard, you know, try to make sure they
21:08
have sufficient orientation and training to undertake whatever
21:12
it is, uh, they may end up doing.
21:14
Jesse Hirsh: Now when I spoke with, uh, Neil from the Toronto Food Bank,
21:18
you know, a around the same subject, he, he really emphasised culture.
21:23
And, and I think that's partly a consequence of having a much
21:26
larger, uh, uh, core of volunteers because their, their infrastructure
21:30
and their operations are larger.
21:33
I think it's also due to the kind of.
21:35
Urban anonymity that a city like Toronto fosters compared
21:40
to the more local familiarity.
21:43
Not to mention that the table kind of has, as part of its
21:47
programmes a cultural dynamic.
21:50
nonetheless, I, I'm curious in the way that Toronto really
21:54
elevates as an explicit element of the volunteer strategy.
21:59
Is it implicit?
22:00
In the smaller community, like is it something that people are just
22:04
naturally part of or is it also something that again, you kind of
22:09
emphasise as part of that larger notion of belonging and, and, and cohesion.
22:14
Rob Rainer: Yeah.
22:14
Um.
22:17
I would say through the community food centre model, the intent is to establish
22:23
and maintain kind of a culture of solidarity with our fellow citizens.
22:28
So we don't call people coming to the food bank, for example,
22:32
or using other programmes.
22:33
We don't call them clients or whatever we call them participants.
22:37
Um, because they're choosing to come and we're, you know, we're able to serve.
22:42
But it's, it's in an atmosphere of solidarity.
22:44
'cause you know, we all recognise that, you know, that, you know, we,
22:49
we could be the ones also coming to a food bank and making use of those
22:53
services because we're also vulnerable.
22:55
We're also vulnerable.
22:56
And, uh, everyone has a story as to how it is that they came to, uh, an
23:01
organisation like the table, uh, for help.
23:04
Um, uh, or for that sense of, of community, uh, which one of the
23:09
great things about our community meals programme, because, because
23:11
those meals are open to anybody.
23:14
Um, we do see people coming in who, just like the, the ambiance of the dining hall,
23:20
that free meal, very nutritious, very tasty, uh, meals prepared by our chef and,
23:26
and their assistants and the volunteers.
23:28
Uh, and they just sit down with their fellow citizens and, and have a nice time.
23:33
Um, so that I think that the culture we're really trying to, uh, foster is one of
23:39
total respect, uh, non-judgmental, um, uh, solidarity, uh, and also fun, you know,
23:47
trying to make sure that having everyone's having kind of a good time in the process.
23:52
There's, there is quite a bit of laughter going on, uh, during a
23:55
community meal and the preparation for the community meal, the, you
23:57
know, the atmosphere and the dining hall is really, really, really nice.
24:01
Um.
24:02
And, uh, yeah, these are kind of the intangible aspects of being involved
24:07
or, or, uh, witnessing on the inside what it's like to, to, uh, see how
24:12
a community food centre operates, uh, as perhaps opposed to some other
24:16
types of frontline organisations.
24:18
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and let's use that as an opportunity to kind of situate
24:22
th those programmes or those services within y your larger perspective that
24:27
you have, you know, a, as a public servant, as a politician, in that
24:32
you've been the reve of Te Valley.
24:34
And for city people listening, Reeve is kind of the rural e equivalent of a mayor.
24:40
I, I'm curious, uh.
24:42
How that gives you a kind of bigger picture of the needs of the community.
24:46
'cause we've been talking about kind of the food security needs, but the
24:50
flip side to this is many of your constituents are farmers are involved in
24:55
agriculture in part because that's the nature of being in a rural municipality.
25:00
So I'd love to hear your thoughts on, on those connections and, and
25:04
how they fit into the larger picture that, that you've been afforded.
25:08
Rob Rainer: Yeah.
25:09
Uh, again, very good question.
25:10
Yeah.
25:11
So, te Valley Township, uh, just west of Perth, um, is of
25:15
course a rural municipality.
25:18
About 550 square kilometres, year-round population of about 6,000 people.
25:22
Um, has a, a rich history, uh, of agriculture.
25:27
Um.
25:28
Going back a couple hundred years, um, many active working
25:32
farms, largely smaller scale.
25:35
Uh, we have a number of organic farmers, um, and some of those
25:40
farmers or farms, you know, directly support the table, sometimes through
25:44
donations of produce and so forth.
25:46
And then there's other farms, uh, around the table, like in Drummond,
25:49
north Elmley, and further afield that also support the table with.
25:54
Uh, either donations or, uh, lower prices on, on, on produce, for example.
26:00
Um, as a municipal politician, um, I've certainly seen with the gradation
26:06
of the population, play Valley is actually made up of significant
26:10
portion of our population is, is older.
26:12
Um, we're above the provincial average in terms of the number or percentage
26:16
of people who are 55 years and older.
26:19
And, uh, many of those folks do come from longstanding families,
26:22
farming families and so forth.
26:24
Um, so we actually don't have a sizable, younger demographic in TA
26:28
Valley, and that's quite common in a lot of rural communities now as well.
26:32
Um, we certainly have people living in low income.
26:36
Um, one of the neat crossovers for me as Reeve, uh, has been our
26:42
Neighbourly community hall, which is one of our two uni municipally owned.
26:47
Uh, community halls.
26:48
It's our main one in the Hamlet of Neighbourly.
26:51
And for the past, uh, couple of years, the township has, uh,
26:56
received some grant money to put on a free community meal once a month.
27:01
Um, it's on the third Thursday of the month.
27:04
It's a lunch.
27:05
Um, different caterers, uh, cater a given event.
27:10
We've just now escalated that to two free meals a month.
27:13
So it's very compatible with our community meals programme at the
27:16
table, which is Monday, Wednesday, Friday, uh, dinners, and our Falls
27:20
Food hub programme in Smith Falls.
27:22
It's a Monday lunch and soon, we think also a Tuesday dinner.
27:27
So now we have twice a month, Thursday lunches at the Maly Hall,
27:31
and sometimes the table is the caterer supporting that, particularly
27:34
the the holiday meal in November.
27:37
Um, and I've seen also at those community meals that people come from all
27:42
different backgrounds and walks of life.
27:45
And, and I've heard directly from some people that for them it's kinda like
27:49
the highlight of their day or their week because they don't get out very much.
27:51
They don't have a lot of money, they don't travel around.
27:54
They're a little bit isolated, which can be an issue in any community.
27:58
Uh, but it can be a, a big issue in rural communities or rural
28:01
isolation, particularly of seniors.
28:03
So we see a lot of those folks coming to the community meal.
28:06
At the Maity Hall and there is this direct tie between that programme and the table.
28:11
So it's been, it is been nice to sort of bear witness to all of that.
28:16
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and if,
28:17
Rob Rainer: yep.
28:17
Jesse Hirsh: anything, it kind of speaks to a larger social purpose
28:21
that's being served in terms of your point about social isolation, but
28:26
also the ageing demographics that I think are a challenge for a lot.
28:31
municipalities.
28:32
It's interesting to learn that Tay Valley is kind of, you know, uh, even more so in
28:37
terms of facing that demographic pressure.
28:40
I'd love
28:41
Rob Rainer: Yep.
28:41
Jesse Hirsh: to kind of elaborate on, on the role that these types of meals
28:45
play, but on a larger picture, the role that this kind of programming.
28:49
Could and should play.
28:51
And this is where we get to transition to the, not so much the utopian part of
28:55
the episode, but the hopeful part of the episode where we get to entertain having
29:00
more resources than we currently have.
29:02
You know, what could that entail?
29:04
Like if we were to be serious about, you know, both social isolation as,
29:09
as a growing concern, I think for all ages, but in particular how it.
29:13
Compounds an ageing community, how it makes it even more difficult to not
29:19
just deal with the mental health issues, mobilise the volunteer base, you know,
29:24
foster the, the sense of solidarity.
29:26
So let's dig deeper here, both in terms of the role that's being played, but the
29:30
role that could be played, uh, you know, if we had access to, to greater resources.
29:37
Rob Rainer: Yeah, I mean, I was in, um, St. John Catholic
29:41
High School yesterday morning.
29:42
I gave talks to two different classes on the, on the subject of basic
29:46
income and um, uh, you know, which was interesting in and of itself, but.
29:53
Um, kind of overlapping.
29:54
That was this issue of, uh, young, uh, students, uh, high school students,
30:01
uh, not showing up for class.
30:03
And, um, uh, I made reference to one of the teachers I was talking to, to a great
30:09
article in the Toronto Star last week.
30:11
My young, I think she's grade 11 student somewhere in Ontario.
30:13
She wrote a piece about why is it that, that, uh, young, uh, that
30:18
students aren't showing up for class.
30:20
And she made reference to the pandemic.
30:22
And that during the pandemic, you know, education had to be at home.
30:26
And so students got kind of used to that.
30:29
And, uh, now a lot of, uh, instruction remains online,
30:34
which they can do from home.
30:36
And I, I learned yesterday that apparently the province has, uh,
30:41
been encouraging students to take a certain percentage of their.
30:44
Education at home online?
30:47
Well, of course, the more we spend on our screens at home isolated from
30:51
other people, the more we're actually not connected to other people.
30:55
And the, the, you know, the, the in person, uh, value of connecting with
31:00
people in person can't be stressed enough.
31:04
Just like we are intensely social creatures.
31:07
We depend on interaction with each other in person to build connections.
31:14
I attended a square dance at the Maly Hall last, last Saturday night.
31:17
It was a lot of fun.
31:18
Um, first one I've been to in like 40 plus years, it was packed.
31:23
It was a fundraiser for the table and oh my God, just so much fun.
31:26
It was young.
31:27
There were little kids, there were older people.
31:29
Everything in between, everyone having a great time.
31:32
Well, that is so rare now to find those kinds of opportunities.
31:36
So if, you know, if I'm, if I'm head of a government like Ontario or.
31:40
Or the federal government, they should be looking at what they can do to
31:44
promote social connection in person.
31:48
You know, we've heard of the crisis of, you know, the crisis of loneliness
31:51
in our society and all the rest of it.
31:52
Well, a lot of that has to do with the, the rise of, of the digital era
31:57
and people being able to plug into their devices and not interacting
32:01
with their, their fellow human beings.
32:03
You go to an airport, for example, and virtually everybody's on the
32:06
phone, and I've been guilty of it too.
32:08
Um, I can remember a time when, you know, you went to the airport, there
32:11
were no, there were no devices.
32:12
You sat down, maybe you talked to the people, the stranger next to you.
32:16
Yeah, we need much more social connection and the table helps in that regard.
32:21
But yeah, governments should be seriously looking at, uh, social
32:24
isolation and what they can do to help counter, uh, counter that.
32:28
Jesse Hirsh: Uh, although you did, uh, just now evoke another contributing
32:32
factor, which is economics, that, uh, certainly if I think back to my youth,
32:38
uh, in terms of the places I could go without spending money or without having
32:42
to pay to enter, to where we are now, where there aren't many what people.
32:47
Call third spaces, or there aren't many places where you can go and not have
32:52
to spend money and just be, then your point about the stop, uh, uh, the table
32:58
rather being involved in a square dance fundraiser, is there an opportunity for
33:04
an organisation like the Table, which.
33:06
Already creating third spaces in terms of your facilities, but you know, playing
33:12
a role in facilitating these types of events or these types of environments.
33:18
In no small part because food is a social catalyst, right?
33:21
It is a social enabler, but also 'cause no one else is doing it.
33:26
And it's kind of an opportunity here for leadership in kind
33:29
of a moment of social crisis.
33:31
Although I could be getting too ambitious.
33:34
Rob Rainer: Yeah, I mean, I think we want to do as much as we can as an organisation
33:37
at the table to promote social connection.
33:40
Um, thet Valley Township, beyond the comm, the meals activity, uh,
33:45
the Maity Hall, we, we, we raised.
33:47
Uh, we secured some grants to kind of provide some, uh, upgrading of
33:51
the hall, like, for example, making it, um, accessible, physically
33:55
accessible, which it wasn't before.
33:57
Um, and then some other upgrades just to the structure itself.
34:01
And we've seen a huge, um, increase in the amount of use of the hall.
34:05
For many years it wasn't being used very much at all, but now with,
34:09
um, some grant money supporting all kinds of activity going on there Now.
34:14
Tai Chi classes, uh, yoga classes.
34:17
Um, just, you know, just concerts and events and so forth.
34:22
Um, uh, I'm, I'm a member of the TE Valley Community Choir.
34:26
We, we do our rehearsals there.
34:27
We do our spring and, and fall performances there.
34:31
Um, you know, it's, it, the, the infrastructure we have community
34:35
halls I think are really, really important part of public infrastructure
34:39
or community infrastructure.
34:41
Uh, so government should be looking to ensure that those
34:44
halls are properly resourced and, um, you know, the volunteers are
34:49
out there to organise activity.
34:51
Um, uh, so government just needs to provide a bit of baseline
34:55
assurance that there's gonna be some funding to allow that to happen.
34:58
But this whole digital stuff is really weighing on me because
35:02
it seems we're getting sucked further and further into it.
35:05
And now with ai.
35:06
Uh, potentially sucking us further into, if you will, almost dependence on
35:11
the technology to be able to function.
35:14
Um, it's a huge concern 'cause I think with every step we take further
35:18
into the digital world, we become that much more separated from, if
35:22
you will, the human experience.
35:24
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and as an aside, I think that that dependence has kind of
35:28
already been established on a connectivity level, which those of us in rural
35:32
communities, we felt that pain point for quite some time in, in terms of not
35:36
having access to the same type of high speed connectivity that cities have.
35:41
But it, it kind of, you know, before we get, uh, deeper into
35:43
the policy conversation, which I'm, I'm absolutely excited to do.
35:47
You, you, you.
35:48
You just inspired me.
35:50
Another interesting urban rural contrast, which I'd love to throw at you, where
35:55
one of the perhaps advantages of an urban environment is poverty is visible, right?
36:02
It's, it's easier to see people who are experiencing, you know, homelessness.
36:06
It's easier to see people who are experiencing addiction,
36:10
so it's, it's a little.
36:12
Easier for civic leaders and, and, and people involved in
36:15
social enterprises to quantify the problem and try to address it.
36:20
But it strikes me in a rural community that may not exist, there may not
36:25
be the same level of visibility.
36:28
In the sense that one of the consequences of social isolation could
36:32
be invisibility, could be that people withdraw into their rural property,
36:38
withdraw into loneliness or addiction or poverty, and you might not know.
36:44
How do you, both as a community leader, but also vis-a-vis, the responsibilities
36:51
of the table in trying to help the community, how do you compensate for that?
36:55
How, how do you.
36:57
Try to surface where some of the need has to go or help identify the problems
37:03
that could be harder to identify as a, as a result of the different context.
37:09
Rob Rainer: Yeah, you're asking great, great questions here.
37:11
Um, and it is kind of a call.
37:12
Complex one.
37:14
Uh, I think it is true definitely that in rural communities, um,
37:19
poverty as we might imagine to be, may, may not be quite as visible.
37:24
Um, uh, there are also people who in rural areas, actually live quite well on, on
37:32
comparatively low income because they, you know, they, they, they've got certain
37:36
skills or knowledge that allows 'em maybe to grow a lot of their own food or.
37:40
Do a lot of their own maintenance, and so they actually don't
37:43
need, uh, a higher income.
37:45
Whereas in urban areas, I, that may not be quite as true, I mean, may
37:49
be a little more income dependent.
37:51
Um, I think, uh, for people to understand the linkages between low
38:01
Jesse Hirsh: low
38:01
Rob Rainer: income and poor health outcomes, for example, is, is important.
38:06
In other words.
38:07
There is a baseline of income that, uh, everyone really should have
38:12
to make sure that, um, they, they can live, uh, uh, a decent life.
38:18
Doesn't mean that they're going off to Disneyland, you know, once
38:20
a year or whatever, but at least that they can afford, if they're
38:24
purchasing food, they can afford food of sufficient quality and quantity.
38:28
They have a, uh, they have a, a solid roof over themselves.
38:31
They have.
38:32
Shelter that's comfortable.
38:34
Uh, they can afford basic clothing and other basic needs.
38:37
So, um, to the extent that people, some people don't have that reality
38:43
and are suffering the consequence of stress or hunger or any number of
38:49
other manifestations of, uh, poverty, there is a direct correlation between
38:53
those situations and people's health outcomes immediately and later in life.
38:59
So, uh, you know, I think it's very important that our senior governments, by
39:03
which I mean our provincial and federal governments primarily, uh, recognise
39:07
the strong, powerful correlation between low, low income, say involuntary low
39:11
income, and, uh, negative outcomes, both health and other outcomes, uh, for
39:17
individuals and for the greater society.
39:19
Um, which is, you know, why I'm such a big supporter of the concept of basic
39:23
income and have been for quite some time.
39:26
I believe it fundamentally, everyone should have access to a minimum
39:29
income floor, uh, whether you live in the rural area or the urban area
39:33
and, uh, in a big, rich country like Canada, I know we can afford that.
39:38
It comes down to sort of political will and also public support.
39:42
Um.
39:43
We do live in, we do live in a dominant culture, I think, where people have the
39:47
idea that the way you stabilise your life is through, through work and employment.
39:52
But that's such a flawed concept given what we know of all the ways in
39:57
which stable employment or the pursuit of stable employment can be, can be
40:02
challenged or interrupted, um, due to, uh, circumstances that people may be facing.
40:07
So,
40:08
Jesse Hirsh: And, and
40:08
Rob Rainer: yeah.
40:09
Jesse Hirsh: I'll, I'll even, I'll even go further and indulge in the
40:13
privilege of being a podcast host where part of the mandate of being a podcast
40:17
host is introducing personal anecdote.
40:20
I only had one job my entire life.
40:23
It was when I was 17, uh, washing hair.
40:26
In a salon before people got their hair cut.
40:29
It lasted about 11 months before I quit, and I've never been able to get a job
40:33
since, for a bunch of reasons that tie to disability and health and intellect.
40:39
So for, for us to have a society that says work is a central component
40:45
of one's status or dignity, then we have to acknowledge that the vast
40:49
majority of people are not allowed to do the work that they want to do.
40:52
And that's a problem.
40:55
w what strikes me as appealing about universal basic income is
41:00
not the concept that it discourages people from work quite the opposite.
41:05
That it actually allows them to focus on the work that they should be
41:08
doing and that they would therefore be a valuable member of society.
41:12
'cause they.
41:13
Don't need to get into the precarity that is contemporary employment.
41:18
a a bit of a, uh, digression on my part, but I, I say this to say, y you introduced
41:25
to me of this particular policy issue that I haven't heard other proponents.
41:31
Do so specifically or explicitly, which is the idea that farmers in particular should
41:38
have a kind of universal basic income.
41:41
And while on the one hand I agree, everybody should have a universal
41:45
basic income, I think for city people, you know, there's a different
41:49
context in which they imagine it yet.
41:53
People who are not familiar with agriculture are not able to realise
41:58
that it is a very subsidised sector.
42:00
I mean, already almost everyone in agriculture is benefiting
42:05
from some subsidy somewhere.
42:08
It strikes me that it would be easy if, to your point, we just created that
42:12
bottom, that floor that said, if you're gonna be in the job of helping people
42:17
make their food, we want to give you a base income so you can focus on the food.
42:22
And not have a day job, not have three day job, as all farmers in Eastern
42:26
Ontario have, if they're lucky.
42:29
I would love for you, and, and you can go wherever you want with the universal
42:33
basic income idea, but I would love for you to situate it in the role
42:37
that it could play with agriculture.
42:39
'cause again, I haven't heard a lot of the proponents of the idea do so, and
42:43
I think it's a very powerful framing that that speaks to the, that we're
42:48
not negating work, we're enabling.
42:51
Work
42:52
Rob Rainer: Yep.
42:53
No, a absolutely.
42:54
I, um, fully, uh.
42:57
Agree that, uh, we're a decent level of basic income available to, um,
43:05
adults, uh, working age adults.
43:07
The vast majority would use that to, uh, make choices that are better
43:12
for themselves, including the work that they most would like to pursue.
43:16
Um, I'll come back to agriculture in a moment, but I just wanted to
43:19
sort of flag that in Ireland, uh, the, the government of Ireland has,
43:23
has just this month made permanent.
43:26
A basic income programme to support artists.
43:30
Um, they did a three year pilot project involving 2000 professional
43:35
artists who would benefit from a little more income security.
43:39
And, uh, the pilot was so successful.
43:42
The government is now gonna make it a permanent programme again to benefit up to
43:47
2000 artists around the country who are.
43:49
Professional, but for whatever reason, their income is not quite there, that
43:53
they can totally make a go of it.
43:55
Um, and the, and Ireland has done that, recognising the benefit of the arts
43:59
to the, to the larger society and that that's well established, you know,
44:03
the, uh, the value that, uh, musicians and painters and sculptors, you know,
44:10
the immense value they add to our enj, our, our enjoyment of, of life.
44:14
So to speak.
44:15
So that's really interesting to me.
44:17
But on agriculture, my understanding is the National Farmers Union in Canada has
44:21
come out in favour of a basic income, and I think there's very, very strong
44:25
argument, uh, for, uh, introducing a basic income, perhaps specifically to
44:30
support, uh, those engaging in farming and perhaps even more specifically,
44:35
those who are a bit younger who may find it difficult to enter into farming if
44:40
they don't have any background in it.
44:41
But I have an intense interest in it.
44:43
Um, I know there's issues around access to land and, you know,
44:46
resources and all the rest of it.
44:48
Um, but even just having a bit of a, a stable baseline.
44:52
So if you want to begin to become a producer, um, you've got at least that
44:56
floor of income that you know is gonna be there for you, i I, if you need it.
45:00
Um, so I think there's a, there's a lot, a lot there.
45:03
Uh, going a little bit further.
45:06
When I think about food insecurity today and where it may be going in
45:10
the future, man, we're gonna need, we're gonna need a huge cohort of
45:13
people who not only know, know how to produce food, but know how to produce
45:18
food in a steadily warming climate.
45:21
Um, are keeping up with the science of.
45:23
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
45:24
Rob Rainer: Crop, you know, crop production in a warming climate and what's
45:28
really gonna work when the temperatures is a little higher than it is today.
45:32
There, there's obviously a lot coming at us in the near future that I think
45:36
farmers are gonna have to contend with and probably are contending with right now.
45:40
So again, stability of of a baseline income makes a whole lot of sense to me.
45:45
Um, I do think that, uh, that this idea of a, of a universal basic income could
45:50
be extended across the general population, but of all the many sectors to think
45:55
about what could be more important than, than the sector involved in.
45:59
Hopefully assuring that we have a food supply that we
46:02
can depend upon in the future.
46:04
Jesse Hirsh: Absolutely.
46:05
And, and you inspired, uh, uh, an even more challenging question
46:09
than I'm gonna throw at you.
46:10
And, and in acknowledging that it is challenging, I, I give you leeway to dodge
46:15
or, or elaborate as you see fit, could, could the, the concept of a basic income.
46:23
Also combine with the demographic challenge, uh,
46:27
that we talked about earlier.
46:29
And, and I say this because you, you brought out the reality that young people
46:33
who want to get into farming, if they're not born into it, a very daunting task.
46:39
And it's not just the cost of land, it's, it's even access
46:42
to knowledge and expertise.
46:45
Rob Rainer: Sure.
46:46
Jesse Hirsh: I would love to hear you riff and again, you can bail
46:49
if you feel it's too challenging.
46:51
I would love to hear you riff as a a, a a reve, even though you're
46:56
not running for reelection, maybe that gives you more freedom.
46:59
What would be strategies to get young people to move to TA Valley?
47:04
Right.
47:04
And again, thinking about if basic income was part of it, right?
47:08
So they didn't have to necessarily worry about finding direct and local employment.
47:13
But have you thought about ways to address the, the ageing challenge that a
47:17
lot of rural communities face, and what are some of the means, uh, especially
47:22
now as we blue sky around thoughts of basic income we could get younger people
47:27
saying, Hey, I would like to have a, a more rural or a more small town lifestyle.
47:34
Rob Rainer: Yeah, I mean, that's a huge question.
47:35
It's obviously, it's a huge challenge.
47:37
There's so many components to it, and we've had discussions
47:40
at this, at the municipal level.
47:42
Um, you know, the lack of certain infrastructure, I'll, I'll point to,
47:48
for example, rural transportation.
47:50
There's virtually no tra, you know, public transportation that people can.
47:55
Make use of, uh, forgetting around you pretty much are car dependent.
48:00
And if you're not car dependent, you're probably living in the town of
48:02
Perth or the town of Smiths Falls and you're walking kind of everywhere.
48:06
Um, I know Carl Place has a, has a bus service.
48:09
Um, I think Smith.
48:10
Yeah, Smith Falls does as well, but Perth does not.
48:13
Um, so just, uh, you know, Lanor County, 'cause I sit on Lanor County
48:17
Council, uh, is looking at, uh, rural transportation and, and some options for,
48:24
uh, introducing more, um, capacity there.
48:27
But that's the kind of thing if you're a young, if you're a young and, uh, single
48:32
adult in Ottawa or Toronto, or perhaps a couple, maybe you've got a young family
48:36
that you'd like to move out of the city and move into a rural area like ours.
48:40
Um, man, there's a lot, there's a lot to consider.
48:43
Um, you know, we've only got, we've got one El elementary school, uh,
48:47
relatively small population that's been decreasing over the years.
48:51
Um, the high schools are two high schools in Perth, uh, te Valley.
48:55
In fact, we don't even have a grocery store in TE Valley.
48:59
It, it's all, it's kind of.
49:02
And there's, there's no, there's no physical centre to T Valley.
49:05
There's no, there's no gas station in T Valley.
49:08
Uh, there's virtually almost nothing in terms of infrastructure.
49:12
So, uh, uh, you know, first thing I would say that probably if young
49:15
people are moving into a place like T Valley, they're gonna have to have a
49:18
vehicle for getting themselves around.
49:21
Uh, uh, but then there, of course, just the.
49:25
The spiralling costs of housing, the spiralling costs of land,
49:28
um, that sort of macroeconomic pressure on all kinds of households
49:32
today, it's, it is super daunting.
49:34
A lot of it points for me.
49:36
A lot of it points to the.
49:38
What has happened over a number of decades where we've seen ever rising inequality
49:43
between those who are increasingly pulling away from virtually everybody else.
49:48
We hear about the 1%, but it's also kind of the top 10 to 20% of
49:53
the, of the population in Canada continues to pull away economically,
49:57
financially away from everybody else.
50:00
And, uh, governments have to take a serious look at addressing.
50:04
Steep income and wealth inequality so that we can hopefully have something
50:08
of a rebalancing of, of resources, uh, because, you know, money represents,
50:14
for me, money represents energy.
50:16
The more money you have, the more energy you are going to be able to make use of.
50:21
If you are in low income, you kind of are living a low energy.
50:25
Uh, life and, um, to the extent we can maybe have a better, more equity
50:30
between higher income individuals, higher income households, and lower
50:34
income, if we had stronger equity, I think you'd see more robust, uh,
50:38
communities, both rural and urban.
50:40
And I can point to the Nordic countries are kind of famous for this.
50:43
They have, there's greater equality within the Nordic countries and year
50:48
after year, they not only rank as among the most socially and economically
50:52
vibrant societies on the planet.
50:55
But Finland, as you may know, for seven or eight years, has also
50:58
been voted or has ranked as the, the happiest country in the world.
51:02
And I think a lot of it has to do with they simply have greater
51:05
social cohesion as a result of their governments being willing to, uh, uh,
51:11
have, have greater equality, uh, in on the income and the wealth spectrum.
51:15
Jesse Hirsh: So I,
51:16
Rob Rainer: Yeah.
51:16
Jesse Hirsh: I've been trying to do what I do here on the podcast, which is
51:20
ratchet up the difficulty or complexity of the question as I go along, you
51:26
know, kind of as a test, uh, uh, to the guest of, of their leadership chops.
51:31
And, and you've been doing absolutely a, a stellar, uh, so far.
51:36
you know, now that we're running out of time on, on your last point, you know, let
51:40
me throw a curve ball at you, which, which again, you're, you're welcome to Dodge,
51:44
but y you have, uh, run both successfully and unsuccessfully for political
51:50
office, uh, uh, here in the region.
51:52
I, I don't know if you intend to run, say, provincially or
51:56
federally again in the future.
51:58
loved what you just said.
52:00
I, I, I thought you really kind of described the problem, but also described
52:04
a, an excellent way for us to approach it.
52:07
So my million dollar question is this.
52:11
How do you communicate that to a diverse constituency?
52:15
How do you communicate that to a, a a, a constituency that often is not
52:21
that interested in politics except.
52:23
Maybe when it comes to cast a ballot, know, how, how do we shift people's
52:27
perceptions of what is possible?
52:30
Uh, given that, I, I, I kind of find in urban environments, political debates
52:34
are more volatile, so it's easier to kind of get people interested in the issues.
52:40
Just out of a drama perspective versus, I kind of find in rural
52:45
writings, there's a little bit of the, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
52:48
And it's hard to get people to realise it's broke.
52:51
I'd love to hear your thoughts
52:53
Rob Rainer: Mm-hmm.
52:53
Jesse Hirsh: what it takes to communicate what you just brilliantly articulated,
52:58
but you know, needs to be translated a little to reach a diverse constituency.
53:04
Rob Rainer: Yeah.
53:04
And yeah, again, very good question.
53:07
Um, certainly I found in my political, uh, involvement, uh, you know, you
53:12
encounter a, a full range of people.
53:15
Some, some who are intensely interested in these kinds of topics and are
53:19
deep thinkers and have put incredible thought towards a lot of the kinds
53:23
of things we're talking about.
53:24
And it's, it's wonderful to engage with those folks and then others who, you know,
53:29
maybe have public interests, but they're relatively narrow public interests, um,
53:34
and, uh, for whatever reason aren't, aren't maybe gonna go there intellectually
53:39
around some of these kinds of topics.
53:41
Um, and that, you know, the, the reality is within any government, be it municipal,
53:46
provincial, and federal, there's gonna be kind of a mix of people who have
53:50
that sort of, those sort of aptitudes, which can be frustrating because so
53:55
much of what I think needs to be done needs to be done at the systemic level.
53:59
It needs to be done through very thoughtful policy that also takes the
54:03
long view, recognising that the changes that we need to make aren't gonna happen
54:07
in a day, a week, a month, or a year.
54:09
They're gonna take.
54:10
You know, 10, 20, 40, 50 years to fully kind of unfold.
54:15
Um, so it's, it is really challenging.
54:18
Um, uh, I found as a municipal politician, you know, I get frustrated with sort
54:24
of, you know, issues that are pretty minute, uh, pretty almost petty, uh,
54:29
yet they require my time or someone's time, and we, you know, we have to
54:33
focus on those things while at the same time, bigger, bigger issues that
54:37
are also affecting the population.
54:39
We're not spending any time on those at all.
54:41
Um, and this is just a, a function of, of, of modern life.
54:46
Uh, it's hard to get really ahead of the curve on some of these issues.
54:50
And that's why we hear this, this phrase of, um, uh, sort of the in,
54:55
uh, what's the, what's the phrase I wanna say intractable problem.
54:58
But, uh, you know, it, it, you know, like, like the climate crisis
55:02
is so, so upon us now and will be even more so in the future.
55:07
But it's somewhat of an intractable problem to solve 'cause it's so
55:10
multifaceted, so long term and short term.
55:13
There's so many moving parts to it and you know, it's hard to wrap
55:17
your head, head around it as a citizen, let alone as a politician.
55:20
Same goes with ai.
55:21
Now, I think AI is a, has all this apparent promise, but also a
55:26
huge amount of, of apparent peril.
55:29
And, um, it's hard to wrap your head around how do we get ahead of
55:32
the curve on an issue like that.
55:35
Um.
55:35
I think at the end of the day, as a politician, as a citizen, I've come
55:38
to accept that uh, maybe the best that can be done are relatively small,
55:42
relatively incremental improvements.
55:45
Um, but if we can seed, if we can seed certain ideas in the minds of other
55:50
people, particularly younger people who might be the leaders of tomorrow, that's
55:54
also something of a legacy we can leave.
55:56
And, uh.
55:57
And, and I, I'm, I am confident that those young, some young, some of the
56:01
people who are much younger than I am will emerge in time and become
56:05
some of those thought leaders and hopefully action leaders in the future.
56:08
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
56:09
Fantastic answer.
56:11
Uh, uh, that leads us to the last two questions that I
56:14
end the, the interview on.
56:16
The second last is, is there anything that we haven't talked about today
56:20
that, uh, you think we should touch upon before we conclude?
56:24
Rob Rainer: I. Um, I mean, I know you're, the title of the podcast is The Future
56:29
Herd and, you know, you're a farmer and, and you're, you're heavily, uh, engaged
56:33
in, in, in agriculture and so forth.
56:35
I mean, just back to the climate crisis, something that, you know, I,
56:39
I have, I found very troubling reading about recently, um, has been this, uh,
56:45
apparent, uh, weakening or potential weakening of the North Atlantic
56:49
Oceanic circulation system, which has happened before in the geologic past.
56:54
If it happens again,
56:56
Jesse Hirsh: We
56:57
Rob Rainer: it would result in a, a tremendous, basically like
56:59
a little mini ice age, uh, in the northern parts of the Northern
57:03
Hemisphere, including parts of Europe.
57:05
And, uh, that's the kind of thing like I, I, I read about that.
57:08
It's kinda scary, uh, who's talking about it.
57:11
You know, you open up the news and, uh, they're talking about
57:14
the latest fashion of whatever, um, you know, which is fine too.
57:18
You know, we all need to be able to take our minds to.
57:21
To those kinds of things.
57:22
But, um, in terms of food security, I, I'm, I'm really quite, uh, I'm very
57:26
interested in what, what the researchers or what, what research is showing with
57:30
regard to climate impacts on agriculture today in the future, and how can we
57:34
possibly best adapt to what experts are projecting will be the climate in
57:40
the near future, the next number of decades or in early in the next century.
57:44
Jesse Hirsh: Right on Rob.
57:45
Uh, a great answer and certainly in my own case, I became a farmer 'cause I wanted to
57:50
be on the front lines of climate change.
57:52
I did not want
57:53
Rob Rainer: Yeah.
57:53
Jesse Hirsh: in a city feeling like there was nothing I can do.
57:55
So I, I think you hit it right on the nose.
57:58
And finally the
57:59
Rob Rainer: Great.
57:59
Jesse Hirsh: uh, kind of like the first question.
58:01
This is meant to be a gut response.
58:04
You're not supposed to think about this for any time.
58:06
This isn't an Academy Award, uh, acceptance speech.
58:10
But who are the leaders that you look up to, whether dead or alive, whether
58:15
famous or unknown, but who are the people that the rest of us, uh, should
58:19
be paying attention to or looking for some form of inspiration or leadership?
58:25
Rob Rainer: Yeah.
58:25
Um, I have long admired, uh, Maha Ma Gandhi.
58:29
Um, I read a fantastic biography of him, uh, many decades ago
58:33
and that's really stuck with me.
58:35
Uh, he was just an incredible person.
58:38
Um, and one of the great lines he had, uh, is that there's enough for everyone's
58:43
need, but not for everyone's greed.
58:45
And that's really stuck with me.
58:46
'cause I think greed is a huge, huge problem in our species.
58:50
You know, this, this capacity for people just to want to have evermore,
58:54
you know, Elon Musk close to becoming the world's first trillionaire.
58:58
I mean, how ridiculous is that?
58:59
So Maha Ma Gandhi, for sure.
59:01
Um, because of the situation south of the border, I, I follow the US politics
59:07
quite closely and have for years.
59:08
So I'm kinda looking for those, those current leaders in the US who might
59:12
emerge as the, not as the saviour, but to try to help turn that country around
59:17
once, uh, once Mr. Trump is no longer in office, uh, which can't come soon enough.
59:23
Um, so, you know, there's some, some state level leaders that.
59:26
I've kind of impressed me about how they kind of conduct themselves.
59:29
Like Andy Beshear, who's the governor of Kentucky, he's a
59:32
Democrat, but he governs a red state.
59:35
Uh, he seems, he seems very impressive to me.
59:38
Um, yeah, I mean, those are couple of names, but lots of other people.
59:42
Franklin Roosevelt was a great, in my view, a great president, uh,
59:45
was very, uh, focused on helping, uh, of course Abraham Lincoln
59:50
Jesse Hirsh: well
59:50
Rob Rainer: in Canada, you know, uh.
59:52
Yeah, I mean, I have my, uh, folks as well, but uh, those are a
59:56
couple of names that come to mind.
59:57
Jesse Hirsh: was gonna say you're on a roll, but you are starting to
59:59
transition into the Academy Award accepted speech, so that's where we
1:00:02
have to play the music to send you off.
1:00:05
Rob Rainer: All right.
1:00:06
Jesse Hirsh: this has
1:00:06
Rob Rainer: Okay.
1:00:06
Jesse Hirsh: a fantastic conversation, Rob.
1:00:09
I, I, I really appreciate your perspective.
1:00:11
And I, I appreciate you both bringing up the climate change, uh, because
1:00:16
unfortunately we haven't had enough guests, uh, reminding us of the
1:00:21
incredible challenge that faces this sector, but also that you brought
1:00:25
up the universal basic income.
1:00:27
Because I don't think you're gonna be the last guest, uh, to tie that
1:00:30
in to the role that it can play in agriculture, let alone the role that
1:00:34
it can play in terms of food security.
1:00:37
Uh, so thank you very much.
1:00:38
This is a, a really, I think, uh, for me, but also for our guests,
1:00:42
has been a good understanding of the rural, uh, dynamics that play into
1:00:46
the larger food security fabric.
1:00:50
To add insult to injury, Rob was perhaps the first guest that
1:00:55
has worse internet than I do.
1:00:59
And I have to express considerable gratitude, uh, to Rob, not only providing
1:01:05
what was an incredible and insightful conversation, but he had to then leave his
1:01:10
laptop open for essentially the rest of the day in order for the file to upload
1:01:16
so that we could get the, the quality of the conversation and audio that we did.
1:01:22
You know, this is something a lot of city dwellers really just don't
1:01:26
understand, which is how horrific rural internet in Canada remains.
1:01:32
Granted, there were some upgrades as a consequence of funding that
1:01:37
came during the lockdowns and the pandemic where we had this brief
1:01:41
moment where rural connectivity and high speed internet was valued.
1:01:47
But as a society, we've forgotten about that and the cities led by Silicon
1:01:53
Valley continue to race forward into the future and rural residents struggle
1:01:58
to, in this case, even have a podcast conversation while doing the rest of their
1:02:03
work throughout the course of the day.
1:02:05
So thank you, Rob, uh, for the conversation and for your patience in
1:02:10
allowing us to share that conversation, uh, with listeners all around the world.
1:02:16
Uh, we're gonna move forward, uh, from the food insecurity topic to
1:02:21
start looking at food sociology, food studies, the culture of food.
1:02:27
It's not to suggest that we're wrapping up when it comes to food insecurity and food
1:02:32
security, but we're moving on a cyclical nature when it comes to the subjects
1:02:37
that we research and the knowledge that we mobilise here on the future herd.
1:02:42
And I really felt that today's conversation with Rob leaves us with a
1:02:47
lot of action, action to move forward, whether it's in policy, whether
1:02:52
it's conceiving our food system.
1:02:55
And so it's not that we are closing a chapter on food insecurity, but
1:03:00
more, we're gonna explore other loops before we come back to it.
1:03:05
Nonetheless, I am asking you once again to go to our website, uh,
1:03:10
click on the link to the commons and share your views on the topic.
1:03:14
We will be adding more topics on the commons in the days and weeks to come.
1:03:21
But I really feel that there've been a number of insights, a number of
1:03:25
opportunities that we've been able to surface by looking at the larger
1:03:30
food security issue, and I wanna make sure that we integrate them as we move
1:03:35
forward and continue the conversations with leaders from our agrifood sector.
1:03:41
If you have any feedback, please send it to us.
1:03:44
If you wanna give us a five star review on your podcast platform of choice,
1:03:49
by all means, and if you wanna tell us how terrible we are, uh, this is
1:03:54
where I will remind you that X, uh, once known as Twitter is a wonderful
1:03:59
place to, uh, uh, air your grievances in the hopes that other disgruntled
1:04:05
people will carry them forward.
1:04:08
Until then, I'm Jesse Hirsh, and we'll see you soon on The Future Heard.