Latest / Half the Picture / #8 - GRANT MORRISON (Part 2 of 2)

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#8 - GRANT MORRISON (Part 2 of 2) · Half the Picture

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Karen Berger phoned me up and it was a shared phone and the flat that I was
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standing in with a bunch of people and the phone was in the hallway and suddenly
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up Karen Berger's on said you're rich and so we'd got a dollar a copy and it sold
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120,000 copies in the first day and suddenly it was great I was able to buy
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a house and do stuff and go around the world several times you know because
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I took David Bowie's advice and he said if you ever get money
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you're all good I'm the one if you ever get money
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hi everyone I'm Billy and welcome back to Half a Picture coming up this time
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we have part two of my conversation with the one and only Grant Morrison
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if you guys tuned into part one you'll know that Grant came on the podcast
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primarily to talk about all-star Superman their comic with Frank Quietley which
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was a huge influence on James Gunn's latest movie as I say if you listen to part one
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you'll know that we span off into all sorts of weird and wonderful areas
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and I'm pleased to say there's much more that came from coming up in part two
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there are all sorts of areas that I've wanted to ask Grant about for years
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and we dived well into them in part two of this conversation including
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their Katmandu alien abduction experience in the 1990s which is always fascinating me
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the strangest fan encounter that they've ever had was actually if you can believe it happened
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in my hometown of all places I know crazy right and last of not least they're
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upcoming Batman and Deadpool comic do out in November which is really exciting I'm really excited
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about that one I'd also just like to say the opportunity to say thank you to all you guys
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everyone who's commented on episode one of the podcast and who has been engaging with the podcast
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online it's been so positive and so full of love for you know the interview and for Grant's work
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and for Grant themselves and it's really humbling to to put something out the you guys seem to
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be really enjoying so I can't wait to share more of you and there's going to be some grace
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of coming up I promise so on that note without further ado let's roll on part two of my conversation
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with Grant Morrison enjoy a lot what you just said they remind me of your experience in the 90s
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where you went to Katmandu and sort of assailed the the Shwaibernaf temple which you write about
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very eloquently and super god about how you had this all this kind of like extra stress
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real contact or a high dimensional contact and I mean you live in this experience you sort of
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viewed you were able to view all life on earth as being this yeah this singular object that is
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sort of barreling towards this kind of some kind of like adult maturity point and that when it
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becomes adult we all should be ready for it it's kind of which I think you know so something that
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you was touched on there was I kind of reflected back on what you just said I think about how we're
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reaching what of sophistication and you know and when's it going to come we don't know but when it
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just come it will kind of become the the the individual kind of dissolved and this kind of singularity
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of like you know and of life on earth and they're seeing a race will kind of be the main thing I
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mean I've always been fascinated by that story and about how off the one thing it made me want to
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go straight to Katmandu and run up the temple myself I mean yeah have you ever had people come up
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to you go oh yeah I ran up the set you know I went up those steps I did the same thing have you
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ever had anyone share that experience with you then I've done the same thing followed in the footsteps
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not there was there was one kid who was the red invisible's uh Michael
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but he he actually went and did the whole thing he did the most amazing journeys and there was a
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couple other ones who wound up actually at the feet of Buddhist monks and things so they did a
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lot more than me but yeah there was a couple of kids but nobody ever said they'd run up the stairs
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you know my friend who really could we did it together he says that we didn't run up the stairs
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at all I'm doing so I don't know well there's this it was this this idea that occurred to be when
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I was reading that segment again in the book about how you saw I you talk about a lot in your work
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it's really filtered through into your work and stuff up the invisible's and UX when as well the
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kind of the idea of kind of this out this higher dimension where like our world and our universe
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is kind of grown in the kind of embryonic state in sort of time that's created by these sort of
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high-dimensional beings or alien intelligences in time like Shakespeare is around one corner
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and then like just around you another fold in the sort of time stream is the dinosaurs and and it's
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all happening in this sort of object this kind of thing you know very interesting stuff and I was
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thinking like there's an idea of like time being simultaneous which I know is come up I know I think
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you've talked about it a little bit in your work and also people like Alan Boer has talked about it
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a lot actually and things like Watchman with Dr. Manhattan and Andrew Suleiman mean
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and and that's an idea of the of the universe that sort of time is simultaneous and so
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which but kind of a journalistic idea but that kind of the thing that sort of fascinating
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disturbs me by that idea is the idea like okay so all time is simultaneous therefore like
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everything is already happened like everything will have everything that's happened will happen and
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there's a sort of cyclical thing and and where do we fit into that where do human beings fit into
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that and I remember a sort of another sort of name I sort of became familiar with through
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Super Gods was Peter J. Carroll the scientist and Kale's was he's brilliant in his book The
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Apaphanion you know when our humans which is all about our humans see meaning in everything and how
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and the idea of this sort of a tenelistic notion of time which is that which is but he was very
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honest and like yeah yeah it's right it's a useful in terms of a visit if you are doing science
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or physics but like on a human level it's just happy it's like there's no free will there's no
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control it's just like it's just like we're just going along a road and the road is mapped out
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both front and back and I think reading that book reading your book it was like it seems to
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present almost to maybe a similar notion of time or like I mean and and we live in a world that's
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so rationalistic and so scientific and like so many scientists say oh yeah you're free will it's
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a it's a fallacy it's your determinism is the way I mean I guess I was curious to ask right a
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someone who is dabbled and sort of explored these ideas I mean what are your thoughts and feelings
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about that sort of you know the notion of free will and the notion of sort of self determination and
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in a sort of wider and it would for you all sort of experience of the world and I guess the
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universal next ideas just that it didn't it didn't really matter to me you know I mean but as long as
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I felt that I'd free will surely that was enough if that's what I wanted you know and I'm not
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even necessarily sure it's hard to say you get free will you know I was born in a certain place
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because of decisions by parents made you know I did certain things because of certain
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yeah social and economic pressures that were placed on me how much of that is me forced into a
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shape and how much of that is me making free will choices because I don't have the choice to take
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opposing become a superhero my free will would allow me to fly to Pluto and back tonight but it
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doesn't so you begin to start coming down a sliding scale of what your free will is allowing you to
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do and it suddenly becomes it's like quantum thing it becomes meaningless a certain scale it's
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level who cares you know I'm doing what I do and whether I'm fitting into something but my
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feeling is yeah there is a way out of a bigger organism in the way that our skin scale is part of
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a bigger organism and the the sense of eternity and immortality that people feel within them and
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maybe feel a religious sense of is the mitochondria you know it's the it's the mother cell
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it's the cell that has been dividing through human bodies since three and a half billion years ago
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and through all living things and it's the same single cell dividing and so if it sees time the way
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I do then it's the connected super organism that we're all just parts of and we have different
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expressions of and more elaborations of that are good at certain things and we're really good at
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sensing and bringing back data and information we're also good at making prosthesis
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so I imagine the next thing is we bolt AI onto that and then you've got you've got a natural
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consciousness and you've suddenly got a synthetic consciousness meeting with humans in the middle
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and anything goes you know it's okay it could be war it could be you know fight fucker fleet
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that will be the decision but I kind of think we've set in motion things that are almost inevitable
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so in that this free will fit now my vision showed that there was you know there's a higher
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dimensional space and I think there's enough scientific evidence for that and also for me the
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metaphor of the comics was really helpful because I can hold a comic and look through it an entire
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character's timeline back and forward from a higher dimension they couldn't they were stuck on
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the flat page experiencing time they're where they'd been written but I could see time from above
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and I could look at the end I couldn't warn them because they were strapped in a predetermined track
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but I could know so that's kind of so there's no reason to doubt there could be something above that
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where somebody was manipulating me or somewhere so yeah that experience in Kathmandu was like that
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and I think a lot of people have had similar experiences so to me it's like yeah when you're
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describing these similar versions of time it's because people have seen something that they've
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tried to bring back it's like seen oh my god the sky is blue and all of us are just saying the
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sky is blue it says these are not necessarily theories I think people have tried to interpret
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something they've actually experienced so and for me they actually experienced wars of higher
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dimensional life forms who had access to they said we have time we've got space time we've got all
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the stuff you've got but we've got these other things that you don't that you can scarcely imagine
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and not to bring back as much as you can and the title explained the universe was was a made thing
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it was like they they made it it was because time within their world this is what time was like
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soil so it was a plant pot almost and they would put their children and they're a larvae
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is what it was explained because only in time can larvae grow you know why can you just split
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off but there was this whole process and you know it was happening in dimensions beyond me or a
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level of understanding I just couldn't match but it just seemed like a really elegant notion
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you know the idea of things putting something in time in order to grow that thing and they put
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it on a planet a planet like earth where the thing would have all the nutrients and the stuff
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that they did next to us on and so it would grow and I didn't know if there was other ones in
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the universe if the whole universe has been made for us if the whole universe was smaller than it
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looks from here and it's hard to decide but here the space time object in which they grew
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as the the living biota of the planet earth which is them you know connected on the mitochondrial
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scaffold it was like a yeah it was a cradle for this thing they'd implanted it in there and that
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was the one place it could grow and like I say it was it was growing into us and the idea was as
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you said we've been back this long-winded planet to the life cycle so this thing then there's
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us comes to a point where it wakes up like a caterpillar wakes up as a butterfly has changed
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state so this larval entity which is the mitochondrial thing with us hanging off the tree
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would wake up to some unitary consciousness and that seemed to me a bit kind of happy light also
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we're going to chank him by and suddenly the light will come on but what we're actually approaching
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is a technological reality of that that people are getting closed and putting something
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contact and kids brains allow them to create a telepathic net and once there's a telepathic net
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they're exchanging thought and they're exchanging thought with AI at the same time
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so like I say repeating that again consciousness will change quite radically at that point and
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that's without any old planetary wake up the thing realize it's a butterfly no it's going to wake
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up as some kind of cyborg thing like these five-dimensional creatures who look like morphing
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quick silver and where I presume part machine part thought part you know there was lots going on
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with them and the destructive was very fractal so as you know as I'm a mad notion I'm quite attached
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to because it makes a lot of sense and it gave me a story line to hang the invisibles on
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but was it real yeah only and real in the sense that absolutely changed me and maybe through
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reading the invisibles it gave some other people some ideas is it real I think to the extent that
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everyone has had experience described something similar but it's always through the nervousness
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and you always interpret it differently so that's like art and all you have an experience and
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the way our paint is different from the way it turns became a paint but there's enough
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in there that I reckon these will try to paint the same thing
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like the blind man and the elephant sort of every single sort of interpretation experience is
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on some level truthful and ballot yeah is necessarily even to understand anything of complexity
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you know that's why I think the only way to understand any idea is to see all the angles and
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even the ones you disagree with because then you start to get a feel for the shape and the scope
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and the outline of it yeah I mean what was it was a very empowering sort of idea to come across
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in the book and like and how like if you talk about a kind of the human project and how that's
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and it's something so positive and optimistic about that view of the world and of humanity really
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I mean because I and such a view I feel like it's a phrase that I've not heard too often in you
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know outside of that which I think is a great game and I think that was it was very empowering
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I did it with weak if we emphasize our creativity and I guess what we can have maybe some kind of
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extent of control over like you know there's that cover about you know give me this sort of
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serenity to recognize what I can change what I can't and then I'm a serenity I guess to tell the
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difference and I guess what we can change is what I guess on a personal level is like yeah you know
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what we what we can bring to the world what we can create you know like the stories we can tell
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that we if we emphasize these sort of more positive rational qualities I mean that was just
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that yeah it was just it was very empowering like you know and very I mean again think
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about the world we're in now that the narrative is kind of like weird to blame for climate crisis
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we have to blame for everything so everyone's stressed and anxious and trying to do stuff but it's
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because we're constantly told it's ever felt but an actual fact is the fault where the people who
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created these crises again people with loads of money and then few morals so we're always
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getting the blame and in actual fact as you say it's way more important to just think what can I
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do you know you can't save the world most of us aren't in a position to save the world there
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even major parts of it but within our own part of the world we do our best to be kind to look
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after things to you know to make things better to try to help the environment help people help
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animals and that's kind of your thing you know you do it as far as you can if you if you're writing
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you try and spread ideas that hopefully will make people feel a bit better to do the same kind of
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to me I guess that's the value of the network and it's less about the the star idea because I'm
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getting way away from this notion of the individual in the star and getting into the becoming a part
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of a node in a network and everyone's sharing information and everyone's sharing cool ideas
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I can pass out some wild notion of mine and somebody else picks up on it and suddenly they've
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got an idea you know and using that in a positive way instead of it's all about who can steal
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who's ideas for money more about how do these things enter really how can someone has taken this
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and developed it to make something really useful out of it you know so again it's for me my access
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to the either cultures through comics or through a Superman because Superman's such a big cultural
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symbol I can reach quite a lot of people through that so it felt incumbent upon me to then have a
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message that was that was useful and positive the same thing with the super gods book he's my
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chance to talk to people about a big subject you know that they'll be familiar with the superhero
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and related to my life and then trying again say what is with this take us if we went that
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direction would this be useful would this be helpful we're gonna get us out of the mine a little bit
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and hopefully that's the best you can do well I mean for me that is as someone who received
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who was on the sea of the end of that really you know I thought I thought I like it worked
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it was very because it like say it was very it was very empowering to read and it made me and
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inspired that same thing in me so yeah I must say thank you you know so I said pass it on just
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pass it pass the feeling or none necessarily the book but you do that if you want but just pass it on
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you know and other people and other people feel good than what if pass it on so
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totally there's what I've got one last question about super gods specifically which is you
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describe it so I can say I said earlier I mentioned it that I'm from Sheffield originally up in
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Yorkshire so and you describe at a count there's a there's a whole segment of the book where you
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describe like the optimum sort of like bizarre fan encounter that you never had which was the late AZs
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in Sheffield as I said beating this yeah and as someone as a kid who was reading this who was I was
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like something you were talking about everything and suddenly like my town isn't this as well I was
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kissed you know and you know I was wondering could you could you talk a little bit about that
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and kind of what was it about a bank council that was like so memorable I guess what was it about
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it was uncanny it's what made it so memorable you know and I always feel that chapter
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because I don't think it really fits and it's quite mean you know I was I was trying to be
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trying to be wetty and cruel I think and it was and it was a bit too much but yeah that was
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a strange day you know and as I say we had a bunch of five guys with only people who turned up
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and they just stood there they're always a very shy or very well-mannered and somewhere
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with the strings but they didn't know what to do because it was such a small bunch of people and
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so they'd be approached one by one and they were all very different it was like I honestly was
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a Harry Potter casting call it was like one big guy with a high-grade can of style the gentle giant
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lovely guy and another tiny can of man who was really you know a bit of self-possessed kind of
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confident person so they all had these weird like character traits and it would look like a line-up
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and we were just facing them and we must look like I feel like enough as well I've x-convict
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so the whole atmosphere was quite strange and it was this kind of people coming forward and they
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were trying to be you know that was it and I could sign everything there was the same within three
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minutes and suddenly we were there for another hour so the whole thing just said a very weird
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atmosphere and that that was the stage they were in when when we came out there's this little guy
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just coming down the street and he parked for him choosing he looked like he'd come from the 70s
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of this whole thing he's got I've just been to Barbados I have no way because you're fucking
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Tory bastard I guess that's so that is how we talk up
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very good very good but yeah so it was the era the uncanny and what everybody had been hired
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and dressed up and costumes just to freak us out but normally I'm off-share field like yeah
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Graham Pharaoh is one of my favorite singers only because it's from who John shuttleworth and
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Joseph John yeah well well he this is isn't of it is a connection there but so well so I went
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to say we're born or raised in Sheffield I can absolutely see reading that chat so it was like
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the biggest like oh yeah I know the ex-hout that I'm this insight out this is about I see he's
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people's characters because yeah Sheffield yeah every city has his characters but Sheffield has
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some great characters just like that and then and Graham Pharaoh is John like he and he came
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to my school to give the sort of keynote speech to get in graduation to it so we're sitting there
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like you know like I'm ready to be given us to get to say okay you're finished school you can
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go up into the world now and Graham Pharaoh is Jill at John himself was giving this delivery
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and I really heard about him initially this is on like Heresy first Sheffield but I heard about him
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through super gods so I he's like yeah and I went up to and I sort of checked out Jill at John
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and like the characters he did and all that stuff and went to see him live and so I went up to
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shake his hand after the speech he said you know you're in this book he was completely take he was
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like really even this book about super is and he was like what and you can be I just told him
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but yeah you're in there a few times you know it was just it was great and he was I think he was
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really flattered and kind of surprised but no that's still over must have wasn't he still
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and that's it and I mean like I said there's so I could go on for it for hours talk to you
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about there's so much to to to touch on I mean I went to touch on so many bit already I mean
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but you mentioned something in the last bit you talked about in the individual about sort of the
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idea of the star and the sort of then and also like net the netbow baby but like the privilege
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also but the make the keyword there I guess is star celebrity and and you and famously
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collaborated with Robbie Williams at 20 years ago touching on stars you collaborated with him 20
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years ago you and Frank Whiteley on his album intensive care because that is such an interesting sort
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of chapter in this sort of in the story of like your career like well what was that experience
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like working with I had a Robbie Williams getting touched we'd say oh yeah was he a big
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prom expand was you like oh we need to do this happen together it's he sent a sent an email
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and we weren't convinced you know so I kind of wrote back very neutral and I asked some questions
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to see if it was you we him but I was that you we him and he just he wanted me to teach him about
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magic he was very interested in the occult and aliens and all that stuff you know I mean so
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and I'm curious like me so he's like these beard friend gentist when you figured out I could
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invite them as to how magic works but I kind of was too impatient for anything like that at all
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but we were hung out from probably one alien it was right after the the single radio
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would come out and that was every little light that song so it was fortunate because I thought
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it's okay it's all of the and then Robbie Williams got in touch so I could actually say that's
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the great thing I was doing because one of these bears yeah we just became quite friend
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with him for a while we were getting him out the house because he you know he would just he would
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read shit about himself and the internet and then spend all day in bed and moping and was you
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is sent over but that stuff in terms the side thing he shouldn't ever have done that he did
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he couldn't help himself so he was quite miserable so we got him out the house a little bit
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yeah so it was fun he used to come to our house and sing more of these songs on the guitar
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and he's great great singer you know so the hung a bit from for a bit we did that record and I've
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I've brought Frank quite well and we created these sort of tarot cards for him it was kind of
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summing up his life and where he was and what was going on and that was it it was just we passed
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through you know we we'd see him at gigs went to Berlin we'd hung about him for a couple of times
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backstage and then passed through and suddenly calls went answered and we were going he moved
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into somebody else but you're down wait some of these are we well I think there's a little bit of him
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in in Jimmy Olson in in went away Frank drew Jimmy Olson right and also Superman is a little bit
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Robbie and we're sort of the the face and the kind of the loudness well why the tami wanted to be
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a super hero and I've got drawings with Frank's actually got him in a super hero suit and he
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really looks and then he did Jimmy Olson's really really looks like Robbie was it was too much we
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couldn't it was almost a likeness and he just used a little bit of it but ultimately for the
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for that album rather than a superhero because it was kind of he wanted to be a superhero for the
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album but we ended up he became more like a shamanic you're kind of doctor who figure and I think
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that was the look you know the whole the doctor thing intensive care got into his head so I think
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it was you that was his doctor who album for me it was a strange one because it was the first album
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with a guy chin bus so I think it was a bit it's a bit of a leap in the doubt from him when he's always had
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I mean I I might know as if the problem is there's only I only have so much knowledge but like I'm not
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like a deep deep fan I don't know the deep guts but like I know he always seems to me to have had
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us somewhat gone so edge he's always in some ways it's not a surprise that he teamed up with you
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guys and sort of and you put the sigil on the front of the cover with a bit on his finger the magic
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sigil and and then the angel and the sort of the devil figures on his shoulders he always
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seems to be very open to these fans of ideas no he's he is and he's interested in a lot of
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things but he also one of the saddest things I heard them say was it you know I went to people's
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cool people's houses and they never have Robbie Williams albums we're off come on
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he kind of felt that and he felt that people didn't recognize him as a songwriter and a lyricist
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and I think he was pretty good at that but he's right you know he was the trouble as he was a pop
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figure he was you know he came out of boy band and he was always going to jack the lad so he
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was kind of doomed to be the entertainer and unfortunately you know you wear the mask
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totally I mean I think that's that leads into like I don't know if you're you're aware of
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better man the Robbie Williams biopic where are you they CGI is a monkey I haven't seen it yeah
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I'm looking forward to it but as I say it kind of stops just before we meet them so I was hoping
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that you're monkey version of me and oh that would be amazing because like I say like he has got
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a sort of a very interesting sort of gonzo edge to him and the idea that like so many pop stars
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I've controlled their image and so it's so sort of almost sterile and controlled and especially
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when they get to a certain age I think like you think of the beaming rap city the queen film
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and how that is very quite a control sort of produced version of the band's story and then you get
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to uh but from what I mean I actually haven't I confess I haven't seen better man I already but I know
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I know people have seen and I've heard a lot about it and it sounds like it's incredibly sort of
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open heart surgery kind of like he didn't hold anything back I mean the idea of putting a CGI
24:59
making him this sort of monkey figure was purely like no I that's how it felt I was a performing
25:02
monkey but also I was a sort of a bit of an animal I was just an animal chaotic was the lifestyle
25:07
and and making mistakes and they're very honest which I think is very different for and yeah and
25:13
and unique this is always been very vulnerable and very open but you know I kind of amuses me that
25:19
he's always packed out stadium and everyone's always loved him you know but he's constantly
25:26
vulnerable he's constantly sad is so there's this this real disconnect between the fire
25:31
but he's not like a washed up star really you know he likes to sometimes pretend but a lot of
25:36
the stars kind of like that don't they like the notion that they're really vulnerable and sad
25:41
and then they're selling out stadiums and having number one I mean so there's something else I might
25:49
to to touch on is because you talk going back to what we were talking about with like the films
25:54
that you grew up within the influences you heard because I know that you've written you taught
25:58
over the years about how one of your favorite film which is a lucky man that
26:02
lends the ancient film which is just a brilliant brilliant film and and and and and it's interesting
26:07
because like you you said like you know you can see the influences on people like yeah yourself
26:11
and like your contemporaries like Bore and Milligan and and his and I looked around was one of those
26:15
experiences where I'm watching it I was like it makes sense like yeah because so much of this is
26:19
straight for a film that is kind of slipped through the cracks I think by modern time totally I
26:24
think like it's always been like kind of like you if you know you know I guess I just want to ask
26:29
like what is it about that film that makes you your favorite and like why what is it then you
26:32
think it inspires your influence you from that film I tell it covers everything as well the things
26:37
I felt and the first time I saw I was I guess quite young I was a teenager and it felt like a dream
26:44
I felt it was one of those amazing long involved dreams that you have where you come out of it
26:48
feeling you've really discovered some essential truth about the universe it was like one of those
26:52
dreams and the fact that it wasn't linear structure the fact that he would seem to die and then
26:58
be reborn and anything could happen but then once a figure that was this sort of verse and a
27:02
candidate and it was a journey through life it just played into everything I was into you know
27:08
and Malcolm McDowell was great and so I think the first thing I felt was this is like an amazing
27:14
dream but it's it's really harsh and it's really as one of those pieces of art like you know what
27:19
the David Rudkin plays where you watch it and you're just what the fuck did I just see what was
27:24
that wait I know here's something worse here's another thing and it had all that had this
27:30
incredible imagination and it just kept going it's three I was long so you just this is great I
27:35
just just just keeps going it's like one of those dreams and it goes to all these different places
27:40
and it touches in so many parts of society so for me it kind of said it all and it's funny
27:46
because I was thinking a bit less I mean I didn't even know you would bring this up but I was
27:49
thinking a bit the other day because of you know I'm just reading things and you see all these books
27:52
a bit scream writing and how it's done but it's really only one method for creating one very
27:58
narrow trip a Hollywood movie and I thought of all these films that I like and none of them are
28:03
like that and I kind of thought no generally I like stuff that's not like that you know and I've
28:08
always sought out stuff that's not like that and found that it appeals to me more so I guess I just
28:14
like things that don't necessarily have the typical story or the good guy wins at the end or
28:19
it's the girl that I mean this I want something to feel like it's real you know or even though
28:24
I'll watch those films the films that I really love are not that at all they're it's all lucky
28:29
man it's if it's things are you're not quite sure where the story ends and what's real I say it's
28:36
the dream like the uncanny it's always appealing I think all of the films that I love don't look
28:41
now even things like that at all it's it's a different atmosphere it's not the endings people
28:48
totally I mean I mean I look you man I mean you think of like a typical free act screenplay
28:52
in a in a Hollywood film and I look you man I think I don't you could break you down to free
28:56
acts but it's really more like five or six or seven apps like you know the back it's so free
28:59
wheeling and but also they'd give they would give no it's not what do you mean he's dead how can
29:03
he be dead and then he's like don't even give an explanation he wants to go there'd be so many
29:07
no it's there'd be no movie left and yeah that comes there's three hours of just genius
29:12
totally and it's a shame that it's so I mean like just anyone who's listening you know it
29:15
who hasn't heard it or seen this film like go check it out because it really is one of the great
29:19
I mean my it's one of my favorite films one of my favorite British films and I actually first
29:22
again I've got to give good credit where it's true I mean I first heard of this film through you
29:25
in your work because in the liner notes for Arkham Asylum you describe the final panel of Arkham's
29:32
death brace sort of is he's honest he's you know he's on his back and he's like you know he's
29:36
the last gasp and then like he has this smile and it's very much like the smile that Marco Val has
29:41
when he's sort of breaking the fourth wall at the end of her lucky man and it was like
29:44
and you talk about that so beautifully I was like I've got to see this film starts amazing I've
29:47
got to see this and then like my dad was a big fan of the soundtrack the Alan Price soundtrack
29:52
oh yeah that's great this is incredible it's kind of grexed here and kind of the break here
29:56
of the fourth wall yeah having the band in the movie like a Greek or a crepe I hung out so this
30:00
was like yeah it blew my mind and you're absolutely right like that thought could never be made
30:04
today at all could not be made today and the other the other one like it for me is the ruin class
30:10
so if you saw the ruin class I've heard of this what Peter at all right oh my god it's three hours
30:15
and it's the gotta see the ruin class those two for me are the the ultimate peaks it sounds you
30:20
say everything's in it's like the all that stuff that the Dennis Portard would people are singing
30:24
jazz bands songs where somebody's been modeled you know it's great oh check it out now it's
30:30
my dad again my dad my dad's just way cooler than me you know he was like yeah yeah you've got
30:34
to see this you've got a ruling class you wherever you talk about it you know Ed Land you loved it
30:39
I think that it's interesting because when you talk about the structure of the film
30:42
yeah I I for me went as a fan of yours and this one who's read a much of your work there seems to be
30:47
two different sort of disciplines in your work because you because you were very disciplined right
30:51
to it seems to me in terms of like you're so knowledgeable about structure and about the craft
30:55
of actually just building a you know a comic or just crafting a story and it is a it is a
30:58
crapped and and I think a comics like all saw Superman or which is built around that sort of
31:03
Joseph Campbell heroes journey of the sighing in the day they're moving into the night and then
31:08
the sun rises again in the day in the day and then also Arkham Asylum structured around the
31:12
tarot cards and like you know the meaning the young game kind of psychology and and also packs
31:17
Americana the issue of the multivestie series you did with Frank Quietley took that design around
31:21
the harmonics of the you know the the eight hammer grids so you're so many seems to have such a
31:26
sort of finger on the pulse of structure but also you're someone who seems to brace so much the
31:31
chaos element I mean even going into the sort of the other inputs chaos magic can I have had on
31:35
your life these stuff are the invisibles and in action comics and then you know the kind of
31:40
final crisis where you're sort of embracing kind of anti-structure the kind of jazz kind of like
31:44
your your your it's fluid and it's freeform and it's chaotic and it's like but somehow you somehow
31:48
craft legible stories and out of this stuff where you know which you can follow and as a reader
31:53
you're you're still engaged and you're sort of you're emotionally emotionally you're taking care
31:57
of the reader I mean this is a very sort of simplistic dichotomy of splitting these two approaches
32:02
down the middle but like do you see yourself as someone who is like okay this now I'm going to
32:06
embrace the chaos or this time do you think of it as like when you're crafting a story you
32:11
thinking about structure like rigorous structure or do you think of it as like no this time I'm
32:14
going to go in the other direction that's what honestly it's always project-based so like you say
32:20
with Superman okay that's going to be very structured with action comics the notion was to have
32:25
constant movement like the first action comics and just the characters are constantly moving forward
32:32
from left to right those doom patrol issues were it was done as a recursive spiral so it depends
32:40
what the project is and with pact because it was playing around with time has seen from a certain
32:45
point of view outside the comic then it was playing about with time in a very different way and
32:51
kind of echo in those watchmen things it was kind of riffing with so and I always project specific
32:58
and something with doom patrol it was like okay I'll just do this but even in doom patrol there
33:04
would be cost of issues and there were spiral things there was always trying structures that hadn't
33:09
been tried so maybe that was the chaos element you know I write a story based around I say on
33:14
sort of based around throwing tarot cows on the floor or based around green lantern I did what
33:20
I was like I had died and I was miserable and I couldn't come up with something and I just
33:25
thought there's a cloud there's a sky there's a plane going by and I wrote a story about a lost
33:29
pet but the pets are clouded from another world so stuff like that is that that's chaos I guess
33:35
because you've just taken what you've got and tried to turn it into something but as the filter
33:40
that comes through has always got some sense of order or what is the structure of this is this
33:44
circular is this flowing is this there's never a pure a purely random thing at all I don't
33:51
just don't fucking do that way but you don't seem when you sort of wrong way when you write a story
33:56
it seems to me that you're not intent on sort of sharing offness that's like how would you
34:01
are a structure like the structure seems to me to be very much implicit in like the sort of the
34:05
the journey of Superman and also Superman or if that is in there if you want to see it but you
34:08
don't have to be aware of it but whereas I feel like there are civil writers particularly
34:11
having comics where you can be very ostentatious if you like with structure and panels commenting
34:16
on each other and captions kind of like that watchman style I guess where it's very self-reflexive
34:21
and it's very sort of ostentatious and it's brilliantly done but it's quite yeah I feel
34:25
seems to me that you're more interested in kind of more implicit inner workings of just why the
34:30
mechanics are underneath the skin of the story yeah there was fun even though hung out with Dave
34:35
McKean when we're doing Arkham asylum and we both of these swatch watches and I don't know if
34:39
you remember anything from the late 80s 90s but they were kind of cheap like fashion watches
34:46
and they all had really cool designs everyone was a bit different so you could buy some so we
34:50
all had swatch watches you look them up are they like this I've got a swatch here is it's not
34:56
the same kind of thing well that'll be early still doing them but I'm just sad I thought they
35:00
were gone some vintage yeah so this was the swatch back in the day and I noticed that Dave had
35:09
a swatch on and I got a swatch on and mine was completely white everyone was white because
35:14
the strap was white it turned the yellow and the end but I was white plastic a white for pans
35:19
and no numbers on it and Dave for the one and it's every bit of the clockwork you could see through
35:26
it was transparent you could see all the stuff from the workings and I just thought well that's
35:30
how he does it and this is how I do it and yeah it was always my English teacher I just go back to
35:36
just said you hide the structure you don't want it to be seen you want it to be under there like
35:40
it's wearing away and you don't know and that might be right or wrong it's like as you say there's
35:44
good stuff which makes a point in the structure and we tried to do that with packs in our own way
35:50
but my favorite method is to hide it you know and unfortunately you don't get the kudos for that
35:56
because people don't notice it even then a lot of times you know just it's chaotic or you just
36:01
through this across the page which is what I get quite often because I'll try we have
36:05
structures now and again but yes for me the structure should be underlying and you shouldn't
36:10
really know and it should be something strange you know in the film it's the it's basically the
36:15
curve of an illness and recovery so I based on that kind of chart temperature chart and that's
36:21
if it's a very simple arc but it's like gravity's rainbow is just based on the the Aristotle
36:26
drama arcs I'm thinking okay let's do that so with like that there's always always some underlying
36:33
thing there and I think for me it's that the just the tension is between how much rational mind
36:38
if they want this how much irrational and you can push it one way or another but there's always
36:43
the there's always the tugging back to make sure it's anchored somewhere even final crisis which
36:47
people think is or it's chaotic now it was based on channel shifting techniques so it's just
36:53
deliberately jumps like that so there was always thoughts behind it but as I say and where she
36:58
explains structure I think you can't expect it to be known it shouldn't be noticed it shouldn't
37:02
be weak set by scholars I mean that's it I mean ideally when you're watching if you're
37:07
aware you're reading a comic already a novel or film I think ideally I think I guess like the
37:11
ideal mindset the director or the creator is having is like with the reader is like you're not
37:15
thinking about the structure not thinking about that you're not breaking it down and geek
37:18
is structuring it while reading it which would just be absorbed in the story exactly that
37:23
you know and you're just you're bleeding people along in a certain way and it tends to be
37:27
narratively or with characters so there are things that I wouldn't do on the screen because there's
37:32
too much money involved you know that I would certainly do in the comics piece to break structure
37:37
you know someone will read something and go why do I feel uncomfortable because I've wanted
37:42
it feel uncomfortable and I'm sorry maybe I should have explained but does that you know they
37:47
think they feel uncomfortable because it's written badly because they want to feel comfortable
37:52
but you know so certain things are done to make deals there's checks have learned from
37:56
many other people's comics over many years where if you do certain things with an image or a
38:01
walk door you get really odd effects you know and if you do it wrong you get really interesting
38:06
effects so sometimes I will break like I say break frames or break structures just to give people
38:12
a sense of disconcerting strangeness well that's how I felt reading for me like when I first
38:18
heard about a process for example like I just I think the brilliance of that for me was the idea
38:24
like so obviously as the crisis sort of develops and dark side you know the big bad invades the sort
38:29
of the DC universe reality and everything kind of goes to hell and like and then behind dark side
38:33
you've got the vampiric sort of universe monitor you know he's going to sort of drain the life
38:38
force out of the DC universe just these incredible ideas and concepts and then but like it's
38:42
almost the way you presented it from like the gutter of like yeah you got to but you know the
38:46
detective the Kirby detective from the fourth world you know tracking that you know what happens
38:50
where Ryan why did I find him in like it in a garbage dump their skip and then like finding it
38:55
and then sort of working way up from the bottom to the top and also but also kind of framing it like
38:59
I can almost like in as news as media because like you know I remember the the title pages of like
39:04
each issue would be almost like the sort of banner of like a news broadcast like and then as
39:08
things get more chaotic and fragmented it as the news can't keep up and like and people can't
39:13
keep up and it just becomes this chaotic as the whole reality kind of pulls apart which in
39:18
some ways not let's how yeah exactly and suddenly you turn around and people are working on
39:24
production lines and making justify helmets and it's die on the job does to die for dark side
39:30
and it's because all of a sudden it becomes like that and I wanted to show that's kind of how
39:35
these things happen you know it's not the easy process people might imagine let's just
39:39
celebrate you then it and you realize what's been going down it's too late and such thing
39:44
you because you mentioned Dave a day machine there and the and the swatch story I mean we actually
39:48
had Dave on the on the pollcaster a little while ago so yeah and he was great was talking about
39:54
primarily about his own crib but we touched on it I couldn't help just the I had to ask about
39:58
because I was talking was actually my favorite comic of yours and maybe my favorite ever if I'm
40:02
just being honest but like that is such a unique taste I think still in in superhero comics it's
40:07
such a unique take on a character is iconic as Batman the abstract you know the surreal way
40:12
whereas most takes are on that character and super is a very realistic and sort of I emphasized
40:17
the noir and the gritty and the crime and it's you know it's Wells and it's Hitchcock and then
40:21
and then with that you were like no no this is like Spank Mine this is Lynch this is like all these
40:25
I mean and it still feels like this precious view I can barely think of any stories and comics that
40:30
sort of went as far as he goes they're creating a kind of art house Batman and he might and
40:35
is that something that you what's your I just want to ask like what's your relationship to that
40:38
comic right now and all this time later I mean I guess it kind of was one of the things that put
40:42
you on the map with the time right is that that's really dead there was then it was the first thing
40:46
that made me actual money I mean I'm at calendar phone mail but it was a shared phone and the fly
40:51
that I was staying in with a bunch of people and the former's in the hallway and suddenly up
40:55
can burgers on said you're rich and so we'd got a dollar a copy and it sold 120 000 copies in the first
41:01
day and suddenly it was great I was able to buy a house and do stuff and go around the world
41:07
several times you know because I took David Bowie's advice and he said if you ever get money
41:11
you know go around the world if you ever get money so I did that and it was yeah change my life
41:20
completely but I've had a weird up and down relationship with it because the backlash was so
41:25
heavy on that book and I felt as if it'd been bond you know really I felt quite bad about it
41:30
for a while but my current position is I love it you know I've gone back to why it was made and why
41:35
it was different and embraced all of those things you know and I think it's great as the as the
41:41
euro art house take on Batman and I think it's why it was so popular outside the fan base
41:48
because the fans kind of really presented it and we've been rebelled against I mean not everyone
41:52
obviously but there was a large was a kind of swell of this isn't the dark night this isn't kill
41:57
and joker if hell is this you know Batman's a pussy but man barely gets into a fight I've
42:02
been a woman beat some of it and it wasn't that at all you know so we're coming back on there
42:09
anyways we totally hit them up and it's why it's been so successful I think there's certainly
42:13
been more successful outside the kind of you know it's the one the directors have always read
42:18
or you know people and architects have gotten their share so it seemed to reach out to very much
42:25
the audience I guess we were trying to bring to the comics and to say look we can also do a Batman
42:30
that's like like those sources you say like Spant Meyer like brothers K or you know the David
42:38
Lynch saw a lot of the European directors the surrealist directors I was watching at the time
42:43
and and Kenneth anger and stuff there was a lot of things that were feeding into it and proctor
42:49
was another big influence so looking back now you see are we actually made this and we made this
42:54
in 1989 you know and it was I think it's still it's still kind of ahead of its time and it's still
43:00
unlike anything else so I'm I'm pretty proud of it now if I'm pleased with it I've made my
43:06
piece and anything over said by the bit of a solo team but as we as you should as a should
43:11
bank because like it that really was for me like because it's interesting that you mentioned how
43:15
it was kind of it wasn't well received by the fans but it would kind of brought outside people
43:18
into the into the media into sort of get government reading comics and and that was how it felt
43:22
to me I mean I'd always been a comics fan but really first in carrying that comment it was like
43:27
because essentially when I was reading super gods you talk about the flash it has an issue with
43:31
the flash 163 I think from the 60s where flash is that finger break from the fore floor and
43:36
he's reaching out to the the the the reader is like stop by this issue now or you know my life
43:40
depends on it incredible comment and I know you told very eloquently about how that was kind of a
43:46
a real sort of I just don't know if you it became a sort of origin story and so I wake some of your
43:50
the the ideas that you have but it was very inspirational for the ideas that you have about the
43:55
meeting about breaking the fore floor and let's a fiction and and I can also say it was a similar
43:59
thing for me with Arkham Asylum not in the same way I'm like I guess the fore floor but just like
44:03
a contact with something that is as complete you have no reference point for and it's like
44:08
what the hell is this and it was brilliant and and but I'm curious because I know that
44:12
as I've read the script and the liner notes that are present in the book they're quite different
44:16
from the finished comic and I why it for what I understand Dave came on board and sort of took
44:20
the script and basically ran with it this way I came in I'm going to strain this through my
44:25
trism of my artwork is that how it how it happened yeah absolutely when it started as a 48-page
44:31
script and I've done all these little thumbnails that are in the back of some editions and
44:36
just in my usual style basic comic drawings and I'd imagine something like Gary Leach doing it so
44:41
I did imagine I kind of kill and joke that they would carry on and do one of those you know with a
44:46
comic book with a spine kind of thing and then it would be very much in that format and then Dave
44:52
came on board and he wanted to make it longer so I wrote the script to 64 pages which he then
44:58
did as 120 pages and yeah but the collaboration I don't think it would be so probably still be okay
45:05
in some way but it just wouldn't be what it was it wouldn't be what it is now it had to be Dave
45:11
making you know it was just no getting by it and there's no one else in the world that could even
45:15
have approached that aside from maybe a bouncing carriage or a barren story at the time so now it
45:21
had to be Dave and it's and I think you know even the fact that he has that in his resume and he's
45:26
done so much more and he's obviously done things that he was a lot more interested in it's
45:30
it's a really good one to have a Batman that's like unlike any other Batman because Batman is
45:35
the the great cultural figure of barely 21st century you know and pop culture certainly so
45:40
I think to have that and for for both of us it's yeah I like how can I say I love like brother
45:50
well it's interesting talking today about it because Dave like you say Dave's done so much when
45:54
you both have I mean so much since then so much you know crazy guys proud as extraordinary but like
45:59
he's I mean his career he's moved into like yeah like music he's always been into jazz and over like
46:03
feel and an album artwork and and pros the illustration that kind of thing he's not particularly
46:09
precious about any of the work that he's done he's very much a guy who's like okay I've done the work
46:14
it's in the past and to move on and but I remember sort of I kind of called him out because I was
46:18
like so but like because he loves the as a fan I was like I've got it yeah what what's
46:22
I asked in the same question like what's the relationship like to it now and it was nice because
46:25
normally he I think he just done a big compilation book with zone art like a big absolute edition
46:31
of his so I need any and it was the first time he'd ever revisited any of his stuff really because
46:35
he's very much like moving ahead but then he and he'd always been I think I'll you say at the time
46:39
maybe he was a bit in back because he wasn't a Batman official you know I don't you just came on
46:42
boards to do the story but then we got a hard time as well so I think he must have felt that too
46:50
but like he kept I remember when I asked him about he was like you know what and he's he
46:53
tells you there's like you know what I actually he he because he'd reviewed a lot of the materials
46:56
the original drawings and the prep that he don't comment when putting together this sort of
47:00
retrospective and he actually was like you know this is actually pretty good yeah so that's
47:04
that's the best I could get out of him because like yeah you know I'm not you know he's seen
47:07
to be like well see possible about it she's not I mean it's time for I'm from their perspective
47:12
I was going to write something again I'll go get it into yeah I mean if you guys ever I
47:16
think that's the only work you guys have done yeah did you guys ever talk about doing something
47:20
else or was it really much just like a moment in time it's like that was what it was no there was
47:24
that but we did a 16-page story for a book called Four Bears it was DC's piranha press imprint
47:32
and David and I did this and it was a honestly I've got to say this is a pitch perfect
47:37
on Bennett talking heads and it's just a library and it's the opposite of the Batman thing 16
47:43
pages like that's like a 12-panel grid of just a library and talking to camera this middle-aged
47:50
woman from she's from leads she's always and it's just done as I kind of Alan Bennett monologue and
47:57
it's really good it's really and that was the way or nothing we said and people don't even know
48:02
that we did it oh I mean I don't answer pipe I didn't even know so I'll shut that out but like
48:06
yes let's hold out a glass of water you should check it if you can okay yeah well and if you
48:11
guys stay in touch since those days are you I mean you've you've ever talked about I'm always
48:16
I mean anytime I see David I get on with him but no I mean we've met up at conventions probably
48:21
there's been years actually since we last met but yeah we get on but we haven't talked with
48:25
Dylan Nelson and I still even drag him back to Arkham asylum too which I've threatened many times
48:31
that's right I remember you've talked about this haven't you doing a follow-up in some form
48:36
well I just like the idea of like you know it's last gas jump the shark kind of thing
48:41
there's got like the come on moment but I'll just say that's I'm doing I can say I'll do it
48:46
right I said I try mobile agree notion and and I we're doing it in a completely different way
48:52
but I want to say I think it's still just a great notion I don't know if I'll ever go back
48:57
here again well I think you're one of those right is where some of your sort of an unreleased
49:03
or unfinished comics are as sort of famous as some of your finished ones so like I mean I don't
49:07
remember for a long time sticking with Arkham asylum I remember for a long time you were talking
49:10
with Simon Bisley about doing a Spider-Man comic kind of in the style of Arkham asylum and that's
49:15
but doing it approaching it from is that dickco sort of Spider-Man and approaching it is like a you
49:21
know animal you know sort of I'm picking that sort of did the neuroses of that sort of classic
49:25
dickco Spider-Man and getting under the skin of that was that the I was that sort of the idea
49:29
that was the idea of the time but then we had martial law which did the same thing in such
49:33
a vicious and mean spirited way that you couldn't possibly talk I mean this I mean my part
49:39
mills and Kevin and Eels kind of investigations of superhero archetypes are really great I mean it's
49:45
not the way that I'd want the world to go and it kind of has gone that way but they are really funny
49:52
that was kind of the direction you were thinking of because I know there was a Spider-Man kind
49:55
of a simile in there and he's you know he's you know it was definitely it was going to be Steve
49:59
Dickco Spider-Man meets the the modern Spider-Man who's married to supermodels got a great job
50:04
and suddenly they get the option could I switch places with this guy nobody would know and it's
50:09
shown that no with power comes responsibility so it was kind of showing that original creepy Spider-Man
50:15
to still have the same you know the good heart and the responsibility that Spider-Man has always had
50:20
yeah and that creepy like in our house and there's very dickco kind of like sort of strange
50:24
bizarre sort of like it must really kind of looks like a human swastika all the time you know
50:30
there was those kind of images that was Spider-Man was really skinny and weird and nearly
50:35
yeah I'm back I'm back to the fourth wall I mean I should probably wrap up soon but yeah you know
50:39
I'm doing this Batman Deadpool thing so it's the only comic I agreed to do in the last few
50:45
years and they said you want to do this Batman Deadpool and I so yeah sure I've got to do this
50:50
because it goes right back to my animal man stuff in the fourth wall and so it's coming out
50:55
at the end of the year Marvel are doing their own so it's the first DC Marvel crossover and since
51:01
the 90s of the early 2000s and they're doing our Deadpool Batman and we're doing Batman Deadpool
51:08
who is this clever it's how you tell my part so I just agree to because I really like the films
51:14
and I had this idea instantly to pick up on some threads I dropped like 30 years ago so yeah I
51:21
asked him at the end of the year and Marvel's one comes out faster than this one comes out afterwards
51:26
and there's a whole bunch of different character strips in there as well so different Marvel BC
51:31
characters it's again anthology fantastic so yeah it's been a while since you've done a Marvel
51:35
character since like the early northeast of it new X-Men and Skull Kill crew and Nick Fury and
51:40
they're very fantastic for like one two three fours this is like you're I guess you're sort of
51:44
dipping your toe back into those waters well just because they asked but for this one and I had
51:49
that idea but I don't know if I'll do anything else and I can't I can't the commodity anything else
51:54
that I really want to do right now but sometimes those just helped me with something like this
51:57
yeah in a way like Deadpool is almost like a perfect crime Morrison I can't believe this hasn't
52:01
happened sooner because obviously the fourth wall so I could also just yeah that yeah that the
52:06
language and the high and the sort of hyper violence it could almost be out of the sound is all
52:09
is it character I guess could almost have walked out of the invisibles in some ways
52:13
it all I do now I've always got that little bit you know being raised a pacifist there's also a
52:18
lunatic with a sword in my psyche somewhere so it's nice to have an outlet for that kind of thing
52:23
and I do like I do like this sarcastic kind of culturally literate kind of anti hero thing I've
52:29
always liked that you know so that's a great fun doing that one and that's a voice that's kind
52:34
of become almost all too prevalent in today's like culture I mean like you know that the Ryan
52:38
Reynolds the Deadpool I mean that is on that I mean that is is obviously the rock is identified
52:42
with the most but that voice of the snarky you know the rolling your eyes kind of everything and
52:46
sort of everything is kind of I think it's something that people are actually sort of reacting
52:50
against it now we've had so many years of quickly characters and superheroes that now like you
52:55
know it's people I know give it give us sort of open-hearted sincerity like it's been say let's
52:59
say it's needed you know and you've got Batman and this fortunate and he's he's a completely
53:03
different counterpoint than the loneliness so it's quite funny you know that man's a totally
53:08
different character well he's a character who has no sense of humor typically I guess about
53:12
himself very unless you go back to the 60s or the 50s you know typically he's a guy who's like
53:16
he's pretty you know serious and yeah yeah so like a girl now let's say hello that's almost
53:21
pure when it comes to dead oh that sounds fantastic that's that's been fun you know just doing
53:31
something like that was again something that's kind of in the in the zade gaced I could grab a hold
53:36
of and do something with so going back to super gods which is so the end to the gods kinds of
53:41
air kind of ends with you you've just taken over action comics there's a new age of DC comics on
53:46
the way the first Avengers movie is on the horizon it's the cusp of kind of the
53:50
the absolutely absolute total kind of explosion of the superhero phenomenon and so and sort of
53:55
build it the beginning of what became I guess superheroes winning the culture war like Marvel
54:00
became the biggest thing on the planet the Avengers was like in the top three you know the
54:04
bit more of an endgame was the biggest gross movie of all time they became kind of the the monolith
54:09
and I guess and at the end of the book there's so much optimism that you put into the book about
54:13
our wens could go this could lead to yeah kind of an aquarium kind of society if we emphasize
54:18
these principles and his ideas he's very positive human ideals we could sort of we're so
54:23
that and I guess I can go going back to something I touched on earlier like now that we're sort of
54:27
15 years on what is sort of your attitude to that superhero phenomenon now that it's I guess
54:32
now that it's here and it's won the culture because do you feel kind of people talk about superhero
54:35
fatigue and have them for a while now me and like people are sort of they be a little bit tired
54:40
of superheroes I don't know if they are but like do you how do you put what you're feeling on it now
54:44
the way sort of 15 years beyond that point of them that cusp them exploding I think it just
54:49
is it's easy to understand people not necessarily fatigue with superheroes but with the how they've
54:54
been presented and kind of the ultimate has been the template for most superhero films since the
55:01
ultimate came out 25 years ago and it's that notion of let's keep it grounded let's show kind
55:06
of how this would happen let's show Batman and tactical gear and how you know how he gets his
55:11
stuff so there was a focus on that that's going through almost everything I mean there's been a
55:16
few breakouts like the Thor movies have slightly gone a bit more colorful and some of that stuff
55:20
but I think what you see now is like actually starting to see movies that have like comics a bit more
55:26
like the comics that people remember so I think Superman's a lot more colorful and a lot more
55:32
kind of Irish ideas the fantastic foes coming out next presenting this kind of world of tomorrow
55:39
you know 60s pioneer world so to me it's just that if any fatigue there is can to be cured by
55:47
just doing the next great film you know and you could do if they want to do the ultimate dark
55:53
end of things do a middle marvel man a miracle man and just take it all the way and that's the end
55:59
game and that ends with a kind of utopia you know so if you want to take the realistic superhero that's
56:04
what I would take that as the final end game and for the rest of it there's other ways of doing
56:09
superheroes you know do Dan Claus death ray comic which is like a total slacker hipster version
56:16
of superheroes or do my see guy which is post apocalyptic like superheroes when superheroes are
56:24
just tech talkers and influencers and there's nothing left but people pretending to be someday
56:30
so there's always a new way of doing it that's got something to say it's just I think we've
56:34
got fed up with that kind of use what they'd be like if they were real which was always a dead end
56:39
they're not real and they're going to be real for god's sake you know it's like the the unreality
56:44
of them was what makes them great bringing them down here after this ultimately ends with the boys
56:49
and it's like well ultimate power corrupts absolutely Superman would be homelander but no as I said
56:54
the genius of Superman Batman is that they're not like that and they resist that they're superheroes
57:00
and you have to get your head around that rather and change the M and people what you think you
57:04
would be like if you had superpowers because you're dealing with people who operate in a higher order
57:08
than you obviously if you think the first thing I do if I get superpowers have become a total bastard
57:15
so that ain't the superhero stories you're ready getting it wrong so I think there's a lot of
57:20
play outs of okay if they were real this is what it would be like the minute we stop saying what
57:24
if they were real and start as a dumb question there's a dumb question and watch me and ask that
57:29
there's still a dumb question and you can get interested in that however but I think we've seen it
57:33
all now you know and it's not a bit but they are real in the sense that they've outlined these
57:38
creations of the imagination that can interact with us and that's all the reality they need
57:43
and as I always say Superman's more real than me or you Superman was created in 1938 before
57:48
either overs and more last hour lifetimes so who's real here you know that's it you know you know
57:54
well I'm it it's like you say they know Superman's the original foundation son of the DC
57:58
universe and fantastic for us that is of the marble universe now block these two boobies coming out
58:03
it could be I guess it could be something new it would be black to see I mean yeah maybe it would
58:06
be a new phase or or it could be scary I don't know that will depend on how people react but I
58:12
think they're probably correct to ensure that people don't want the super dark super you know
58:18
anymore because the super dark super they were kind of failed as you know as much as I enjoyed
58:23
the exact Snyder justice league thing it wasn't my aesthetic at all but he's got such a dedicated
58:28
filmmaker I really appreciated the world that he'd created but it just had no hope to offer it
58:35
of you we had nothing as you know dark side when Superman's corrupted all the way as well it's
58:40
you know there's a feeling of everybody's gone mad I lost the money I lost to get
58:44
so I think that was too close to home for people so I'll be interested to see now if they do
58:50
dial up the colors and and say but this is never going to this this comes from a world where
58:54
this stuff is real and you just have to buy it you have to buy it and equip to the super dog and
58:58
stop asking yourself how is this could possibly happen because it can never happen except in a story
59:04
and once understand that then the characters in a story can then be inspiring you know what they
59:09
are when you're when you're a kid and you're being fairytales the characters inspire you they
59:13
don't have to be real pushing boots doesn't have to be real to make kids feel brave and swerve
59:18
buckling so I think we as adult audience need to get back to stop to imagine what would it be like
59:24
if they were real that will never have this an insane question to ask it's like what would happen
59:29
if unicorns and the banking system it would probably fall apart wouldn't it be really one
59:36
of wasting time pursuing that question in a series of films oh we know the answer yeah and I guess
59:43
like you know we said in the right of the start like hope and optimism which seems to be what yeah
59:46
what Superman is so much in the DNA and what James seems to be doing I like in a movie and maybe
59:51
a live ff movie is like it's almost punk it's like to say it's a provocative act she's she shouldn't
59:56
be the case but like I guess it's shouldn't be but as a strategy it's no worth trying there's no
1:00:02
worth getting really aggressive with it and shoving it in people's faces is it always like shake hands
1:00:07
and tell your hand falls off because yeah it's about so much the other third you know so much now
1:00:12
I didn't know for everyone's second but so just I think to try something different and see if it
1:00:16
works let's give it a go right well thank you so much for your time granite thank you for sticking
1:00:21
around I can't believe it yeah we we went an hour that was that was fun we got a lot of material
1:00:26
there so I'm sure you can you can figure it what's good and bad absolutely oh I think it was all
1:00:30
good I mean and for me person like I say like I've been a fan of yours for so many years since I
1:00:34
was a kid and like this really was a bit of it like when I first created this podcast like the years
1:00:38
ago your name was on the list of like oh you know that would be Greg people if you're just great
1:00:42
to talk to you know people who I'm a huge fan of and thank you so much like no that was good
1:00:46
you enjoyed that but thank you all right well have a good rest of your day and enjoy the Superman
1:00:52
movie yeah yeah I'm curious to know where you two if you see this weekend or any other weekend
1:00:56
enjoy it all right see you man see you man they get
1:01:09
hey guys thanks so much for tuning into part two of my chat with Grand Borison
1:01:14
an extra special thanks to everyone who's been commenting on and sharing the podcast online
1:01:18
and for saying such lovely things about the show stay tuned for more exciting interviews
1:01:22
and guests coming very soon on half the picture