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What I've Learnt - Sarah Rosenberg · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: For stigma, suspicion, and a lack of support, that's the view on why only 10% of sexual assaults are reported in Australia.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: As a result, sexual assault victims are grossly underrepresented and do not receive the social or judicial validation that they deserve.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: While systemic reform is slow moving, with you we can is fighting for victims now by empowering victims to fight for each other.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: If we create understanding around our criminal justice system, we change outcomes for victims everywhere.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sarah Rosenberg is the executive director of With You We Can, a national platform demystifying the police and legal processes for victims of sexual violence while working to improve them.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Her advocacy centres on the need for independent legal representation for victims.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Sarah fosters collaboration among advocates, experts, and services, and consults on various government and sector initiatives across multiple jurisdictions.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sarah is a member of the National Women's Safety Alliance, the Independent Collective of Survivors, the Polished Man, Polished Innovators Advisory Committee, and the Australian Law Reform Commission's Expert Advisory Group for the Inquiry into Justice Responses to Sexual Violence.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Sarah, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're so thrilled to have you join us.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Deb.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you do some pretty incredible work, and you know it's a tough space to be in, but a very important one.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: How did you get here?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: What brought you to this space?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think, like anyone working in this space, it comes from lived experience.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think for a long time change has stagnated really in this sector because it seems to be only that the people that have suffered from sexual violence and know how unspeakably harmful it is.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: They seem to be the only ones advocating for change.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that means there are there is an enormous group of women driving this work because so many women have experienced domestic family and sexual violence.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it is it is tricky that the onus often lies on people like myself and others in this sector to advocate for change.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because really it's a, you know, sexual violence is an intractable problem.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: It requires a whole of community response, but so much of the community is not engaged in the work.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you talk about a lived experience, can you extrapolate a little bit on what that means for you?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I, of all the things I thought I would be, domestic violence victim was not one of them.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's very much a term I had reserved for older women with families and children.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I entered the legal process as a result of that experience, which was a horror story in and of itself following the crime.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I went to troll.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that process uh ended in 2022.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess now I'm dealing with the aftermath.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are many channels of uh, I guess, complaints and processes following the trial that I was a witness in, um, where my family and I are really just trying to make a pay per trail and show that, you know, I'm someone with so much privilege and I'm doing everything right.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And this experience is still so stacked against you.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Everything I do, I feel like it's never for me, it's never expecting an actual outcome, like a positive outcome or an apology from the different justice actors who have done harm, um, and certainly not from my rapist himself.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's about exploring the system and using that to push for change in other ways.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: So your experience of the legal system personally fueled and facilitated your your journey.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Can you give us some without going into too much detail that you're not comfortable with, but can you give us some indication of what you saw as the challenges and whether you were happy with the outcome, happy, I suppose is a strange word.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you were satisfied with the outcome, and if not, why not?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And how has that sort of driven this journey for yourself and for others?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I entered the process with eyes wide open, uh, a lawyer for a mother, and with all of the privilege that I carry.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I knew it would be bad, I expected it to be bad, but it was You mean your mother is a lawyer, that's what you mean.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, so is mine.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: So funny.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And once a lawyer, always a lawyer, as my lawyer.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I went in, I I knew it would be bad, and I expected it to be bad.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, no illusion that I was gonna feel heard and respected.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: I really expected the worst, but it was worse than anything I could have imagined.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: During the process, no one could give me information that was clear or honest or nuanced to my experience.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so as I went through, I sort of converted the notes really that I had been taking into the beginnings of this resource.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I had a co-founder at the time who had been through the system.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's we just sort of realized that the only people that can really tell you what to expect in an honest way were fellow victims who've been through that process.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so we set about um ensuring our information was broad and diverse and catered to a lot of different groups, and it was fact-checked.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not just victims telling other victims this is what to expect, because that's not fair either.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I started pulling together other advocates, frontline services, including sex crime detectives and prosecutors and experts in the area, like uh legal academics, and started pulling together a guide, really.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And by the time of the trial of my perpetrator, WikiWican was the first uh national resource of its kind.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the advisory committee informing and inputting into that resource continues to grow.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the evidence base and being evidence informed is at the front forefront of everything I'm doing.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: It continues to grow and evolve and wants to cater to as many victims as possible.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like the resource is the result of a really intensive sector and stakeholder mapping process whereby the need for the resource was established.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really bittersweet because I was going, oh, great, all these people want to support the work, but how ridiculous that little old me has had to do this.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it shouldn't be on victims to do this.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And having information about how to navigate the legal system and what's expected of you as you go through it is the bare minimum.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, victims are the only reason we have a criminal justice system.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we rely on people to speak up, cooperate with the state, so be supported.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you were very, as you say, you were equipped.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: You had a lawyer from Mother, so who understood the system?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: What were the roadblocks that you found?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: For example, can you just give us a logistical or a sort of an anecdote of how it, you know, you talk about lived experience, that is a very important part of this story because that's really it gives you not only a deep empathy and understanding, but also you can identify where there were issues and how you can help others.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: So if you couldn't just give us a little snapshot of how that came to play for you personally.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you would have heard the term retraumatization.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's a bit of a buzzword.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: We know that is the word that comes up when we talk about the legal system.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: I always thought re traumatization meant retelling my story over and over again.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'd have to repeat myself to lots of different um uh people involved in the process.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's not that at all.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's that the process takes away your agency, just like it was taken when you were assaulted, right at the time you're trying to reclaim it, whether that's seeking support, disclosing to a friend, reporting to police, um, and trying to hold the perpetrator to account.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was so alone and in the dark and ill-informed.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I just wanted to know what was expected of me.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I really didn't feel like it was asking for much.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: But an example is, you know, I was I was told to um book ahead with the sex crime detective who had um carriage over the case at the time, and it was ultimately one of five detectives that I was rotated through.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: They would say, book ahead, that's a way you know you can feel a bit more in control.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Book ahead, you won't be waiting, it'll be on your own terms.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I would book in an appointment and I would come in and I would wait and I would wait, and an hour would pass, and two hours would pass, and then ultimately that booked in appointment would never happen.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just like small.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: That is outrageous.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is just it's just it's it's interesting because it's no particular one person's fault.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like what I found is that there are so many detectives who did not have the answers about the process that I wanted.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like the big picture, when are you going to charge?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: How long's an investigation?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Those things are subjective and they change all the time, depending on so many factors.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, I want to know when when it's time for me to talk about the rape.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because every time I come in, we sit down and you ask me what I had for breakfast on my second date with the perpetrator.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just, you can't get your footing, you can't get a feel for it.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: You're just so in the dark.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, I think it was about managing expectations and and not in the way that maybe police officers might think where we're talking about time limits.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: It it was like, I want to know what's expected of me.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I want basic heads up and and common courtesy.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And those things seem to go out the window.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't understand why.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: They seem so simple to me.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: But these, you know, detectives are overworked, they're working so many jobs, they're vicariously traumatized themselves and rarely get support for it.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many faults.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not like an individual person is to blame, it's the system as a whole.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really so so.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: In that situation, first of all, I find it quite extraordinary that you have to book an appointment like that.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because I would have thought you you just report and you're taken through.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's offered to you as like a way, this is a good thing you can do to help feel more in control.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's offered as like a perk, you know, like a oh, only kids in the know know about this.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you just walk into a station, if you think about it, like uh me, I I had my father with me, and I had a friend with me, and I walked into the station.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And the station smells horrible.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: There are um people everywhere.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: There are people talking to the desk, like the reception officers, really angry that their, I don't know, toolbox has been stolen, which, you know, in the moment of your trauma, you're just thinking, oh my God, like this is just chaotic.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're not in the same position, you and I.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And someone at the front desk goes, Cool, so what are you here for in front of everyone?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's just that's the alternative.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So booking an appointment was a way that you could maintain control, you could be brought straight into the sex crime detective, you wouldn't have to brief anyone at the front desk.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: They would know, oh, this person has called before.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: She's looking for um the detective who's gonna um, you know, take courage of this investigation and take her, or at least take her initial report.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because of course, the, you know, there's no guarantee that the first officer you have will be the first, sorry, the there's no guarantee that the first officer you have will be the officer associated or assigned to the whole waiting.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was offered as like a, yeah, like a perk, like something you could do that's useful.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so funny that then even that doesn't work.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I recently went back to the police station for an issue not dissimilar to what I first experienced, but certainly not um on the same level at all.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I felt really empowered.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like I have the knowledge now, I know my rights, I know what's coming, and I still got dismissed straight away, or I still got blindsided by a new local policy that had been implemented by a local detective who does not understand domestic violence.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it just, you can't win.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like this system is rigged.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: My mother was really re-traumatized by it.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually in the same um room that I had reported in the first time, all those years ago.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just so disheartening when I'm there with all of the privilege that I carry and the duty I feel to report for the next victim.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm there trying to keep the community safe.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you just can't win.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can't do that without risking my own safety.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that is ridiculous.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we can certainly see the recent figures and the domestic violence stats are just obscene, and there's a constant sort of, it's like nothing's changed in like a decade, two decades.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing is, I suppose we're talking about it, and organizations like such as yours exist, which is helpful.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: What you're advocating for, based on your lived experience, is a streamlining of the process and somebody to hold your hand through that process, which most people don't have, even as you say, you had a lawyer on board who was your mother who had a very, you know, had had an understanding of the system.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, look, obviously, this is a particularly complex issue because people don't know how to cope with the issue of sexual violence.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: They don't see it as it's almost like it's not talked about enough, or it's certainly something that the police are not as equipped as they could or should be to navigate.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yours got to court, right?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that in itself, quite honestly, is an inverted command.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's an achievement in itself to even get it to how long did that process take from the time you reported the assault to getting to court?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's a long time to just even a week would feel enormous.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I first went to a police station in December of 2019.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was there for several hours, and I was told that I should really consider reporting the crime.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: My mum and I were shocked.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: We thought we were reporting.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it would take me three months after that to work up the courage to go back to a police station.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I had to go to a different police station.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so the following year I did.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: It took me 26 hours to report.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I broke that up over a period of um days and weeks, actually, obviously.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And COVID was happening at this point.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember people being upset that they couldn't go out with their friends.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, there's a rapist on the loose, like the stakes are so much higher.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was so overwhelmed and panicked.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the police didn't have Zoom at the time.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the world was kind of caving in.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: It took three months from the time of reporting for the perpetrator to be charged.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, you were just waiting in a queue.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it was two years.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite fast.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: There was a plea deal offered along the way, along the way, which um really took the DPP by surprise because this was a first uh first-time offender, allegedly, and domestic violence and sexual violence particular.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like plea deals are very rare there because that crime is a he said, she said um through and through.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we all know that.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly right.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was really fortunate that I guess my family had fallen, um, fallen for the narrative um that this perpetrator was peddling, that he was really remorseful and something had gone wrong and something mental had happened to his brain, and he was terrified for himself.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we actually set about trying to get him help.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this was someone I thought I loved.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: I had I look back and I know now that that was a very toxic, short relationship.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'd been loved bummed.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'd been told I was loved within two weeks, two weeks of meeting this guy, and I met him on a dating app.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we tried to get him help, and that just accrued mountains of evidence.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like we had messages from his parents thanking us for our support.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we had admissions from him and we had messages from his friends.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, that plea deal, I wasn't given the opportunity to explore it because the plea deal is given to the state.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not given to me.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just a witness to this case that the state has decided to prosecute.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they actually said they would go forward with or without me, which is very rare because I'm the living embodiment of the crime.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the chief Well, the victim.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the victim, but you victims have no legal standing, no, you barely have your human rights respected.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's just for me, obviously, it's sexual violence is the only crime in Australia that is increasing, and it is costing us a fortune.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't take very much digging to realize why.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like this system is so inefficient and it is such a farce.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I really don't know why we're still pretending that rape is a crime if we're gonna handle it in the way that cases like mine are handled.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think generally we don't have any legal literacy.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, no one teaches you how to report in school.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: So true.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing consent education now in our sex and relationships education, or where we're going to be as that slowly gets rolled out across the country.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're doing that, more and more people are realizing they're they've been assaulted.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: We need to be teaching how to report crime as well.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, with more people realizing they've had non-consensual experiences, this is a public health crisis.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just no one wants to face it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, it's it's so taboo.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's the crime that no one wants to believe is happening.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because, you know, we all know, we all know a victim, but perpetrators are people that we know and love, and they're not in jail.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the crux of why Australia won't face this crisis.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: And in your situation, as um we discussed earlier, would you other than the, I mean, two years to get it to really to court is beyond comprehension, let alone the documentation which you have to be fastidious to make sure you've got everything on record, memory, all of the factors that go towards that case, which certainly would have been quite challenging, I'm sure.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Were you in the end, did you feel that justice was served?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely not.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: But the jury, if the jury had um convicted for any of the six counts that um he was up for, that would have been the wrong thing for them to do.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because ultimately, I was prepared to fall on the burden of proof.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was not prepared to fall on a lack of prosecution, and this case was not prosecuted.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: After four and a half days of cross-examination, uh, all other crown witnesses, and remember, they were going to go forward with or without me.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I was never the key witness.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: All of the Crown Witnesses were suddenly dismissed, and a month-long trial was collapsed within seven days.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so it ended up just being a he said, she said.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so if the jury had convicted, they would have been wrong there.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I have a chronic illness, which really feeds into my narrative because my medical and counselling notes were actually in the hands of my perpetrator and his legal team before um they had before anyone had even realized that they had illegally um gained those documents.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say, how did they access that information?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Was that so it's a very, it's convenient that it's a very um niche area of the law.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um in New South Wales, it's something called the sexual assault communication privilege, and that requires the defense team to um ask for leave of the court to gain access to um my private records.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they put forward, you know, some measly rape myths and say this is really, this is really relevant, you know.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, at school she had ADHD, maybe, and so two, two decades later, that's relevant somehow.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's not my experience, but my illness was only ever going to show how vulnerable I was.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was probably going to do more damage to the defences case than the state's case.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but still, it was such an evasion of privacy.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: I actually found out they had um gained access to my notes because a one a doctor of mine that I hadn't seen in about seven years at that time, um, called me and asked what she should do.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: She had just been asked by the defense team to hand over my medical notes.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And by medical notes, by the way, like we're talking blood tests as well.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's what could they possibly be?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's totally strange.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just sorry.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I, in New South Wales, um, you get independent legal representation, specifically when it comes to issues relating to accessing my private records, just my counseling and medical records.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And after two years of begging the DPP to get on top of this, they flicked me to legal aid like it was a nuisance.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I had no, you know, no choice in the matter, no time to build rapport with the lawyer that was assigned to the case.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: He actually had no time to get across the case.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like he'd learnt my name that morning and went to trial to try.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, protect my privacy.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, he himself was uh appalled by the process.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, ultimately, I was put in the position of having to choose whether to protect my privacy and delay the trial after two years of waiting, or allow them to access it all and also in doing so potentially set a precedent that means it would be easier for future victims to have their privacy evaded.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just awful.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like a work in a hard place.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like you either way.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the stakes are like life or death, though, at that point.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like my family was just trying to keep me alive to get to the court.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, there wouldn't be a case for the state to prosecute.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the kind of arguments my mum was making to the DPP and to this poor lawyer who had been assigned to the case just for that specific part of the process.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: That part of the process.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: But beyond that, did you have a lawyer all the way through?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, victims do not get legal representation in the prosecution of their own perpetrators.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: You don't even get someone consistently popping your hand, giving you advice, giving you guidance about the decisions being made about you without you.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: You have no clue what's going on.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're getting calls on a whim while you're at work, running to the stationary cupboard, it's an unknown number, and you're going, oh, maybe it's the detective or maybe it's the latest witness assistance officer who's been assigned to my case that I also have never met.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it is, it's it's callous.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: The whole process is really callous.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's no wonder that we have such high attrition rates where victims are dropped out of the process.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we also have really high improper attrition rates.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when victims are intimidated out of the process by things such as defense barristers implying that they're going to invade your privacy and subpoena your records.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And even the thought that that might happen, that might happen, is enough to for people to drop out of the process because you don't even understand what that means.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's all of your digital records, that's your employment records.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's all of this stuff that has nothing to do with anything, your sexual history, the fear that it'll get paraded in front of a courtroom, things that you may not have even told your family about, like you had an abortion when you were a teenager.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just, and you defense barristers know that.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's really, it's, as I've said, it's re-traumatizing, obviously, but it's really absurd.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: It is absurd.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, your organization, so you came to this, to this um belief that there needed to be support.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you created this organization as a result.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me how what are some of the solutions that you provide and that you see?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what sort of changes would you like to see actioned?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: So with you, we can is twofold.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're demystifying the police and legal processes and alternatives to those processes while also working to improve them.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so what the guide does is offer a way to give agency back to victims so that they can be informed of their rights to access safety, justice, healing, whatever.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you can do that in the privacy and the safety of your own home without judgment.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to get conflicting information because you know the police will say something totally different to a prosecutor, a sexual assault worker who wants to protect you and, you know, potentially discourage you from reporting, says something different to, I don't know, your sister who wants you to get it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, full.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is, and obviously there's such a barrier for people who have inconsistent access to the internet in like rural, remote areas, but also people who live with their perpetrator and potentially have their internet monitored.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a barrier that we're trying to wiggle around as well.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how the guide works, and that guide is always going to need to exist because no matter what reform we achieve, the law can't be applied retrospectively.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I was going through the process when the consent laws in New South Wales changed, thanks to Saxon Mullins' legend.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was over the moon and I was so heartbroken as well, because they didn't apply to me.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Enthusiastic consent wasn't the law when I was raped.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: So my rapist could still say, Oh, but she didn't um object.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Even though I did kick and scream and absolutely did all of it.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I fawned, I froze, I fought, um, just cycled through the responses apparently for different parts of the assault.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you see what I mean?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like that, there are people through blindly right now, and that's not okay.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: As for improving those processes, when it comes to systems change, the reform that I feel is the closest thing to a panacea type reform that will make the most impact for victims, at least in my lifetime, until we decide to blow up the system and start again, is independent legal representation.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so Australia lags behind so much of the rest of the world that affords independent legal representation to victims.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what that does is give victims a single person, like a case manager from the get-go, someone who's in their corner to advise them and also to represent them in specific um situations, like when it comes to subpoenaing your um private records.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not about giving victims legal standing the whole way through.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're an adversarial system in Australia.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: We've got two parties, defense and the prosecution.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're not trying to add a third and tip things over the edge.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're just trying to make sure that victims really have the legislation that's already in place to protect them.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're just trying to have that enforced.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: No one's out of a job.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's not threatening the rights of the accused, it's it's not costing us anything, it's actually saving us a lot of money.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the outcomes are better for victims, but also we see um better conviction rates like guilty verdicts.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because your victim is the chief witness.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: If they are supported to give their best testimony, if they are supported to have their rights protected and not be humiliated or annihilated on the stand, you know, the jury sees the case before them where already, right, the state has gathered enough evidence of this person's guilt for them to even be seeing the inside of a courtroom.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not just anyone going to trial like we see in TV shows.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um it makes complete sense.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: But am I missing something?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because that to me is something that I think everybody would think was on offer.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I would have thought you had access.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to me, so obviously there's legal aid, and there's and we know that there's certain resources, but what what you're saying is, are you saying that those independent advocates need to be specially trained to understand the sexual assault challenges journey, etc.?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, so so right now, victims are not represented whatsoever.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you can go to legal aid and get some advice, but that's just a one-off conversation about maybe what your options are.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: If that, if you if you even know that legal aid is there or a women's legal um center is available and can offer you that.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not the same as having a case manager.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not someone who's specially trained, and it's certainly not someone who can actually represent you when you need it when it comes to um situations where the interests of the victim are different to the interests of the state.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because remember, no one cares about the victim's interests because you're just a witness.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's not your case.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't your trial, it's just your perpetrator.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: But beyond that, you are so irrelevant to the process.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have no control.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: I had some of the smartest people in my life think that I was the one who pressed charges.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing to do with me.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Literally nothing to do with me.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's this when a sexual assault occurs in Australia, the state is the party who is harmed.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then they take on a case to, you know, try that's a public safety hazard.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: We can't have someone harming the state.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're just like a member of the state, I guess.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um that is just surreal.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, but is that really weird?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: But why is that so different to any other crime that's perpetrated?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand that.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, so in the criminal justice system with other crimes, like uh, you know, when we're not in the civil process, most crimes and uh like crimes are treated that way, like you are just a witness to the crime, same as a robbery.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or if someone is assaulted physically and not sexually, it's still you're just a witness, even though it happened to you.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the way, I don't know, it's just the way the system was built.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why the civil system is so different.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: The civil system is where you can, you know, sue for damages and harms and impacts and and money, and there's like white-collar crime and things like that as well.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: The the criminal justice system, it's just not about you.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: The state, I think it's because it's conceptualized as though the state takes this really seriously.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: The state cares that someone has broken the law to this extent and harmed a citizen, you know, if you go back to the old times and the way this was phrased.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: But now it's like, okay, if this is so serious, why the hell is this the way things are?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like this system, it's not broken, it's working perfectly as it's meant to, designed by men for men to protect perpetrators and absolutely punish victims for coming forward.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's really weird.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And lots of systems around the world, they're exactly the same, but they've gone ahead and put things that are, you know, adjunct to that system, such as independent legal representation or other victim supports, to make things better so that victims, you know, feel respected enough and supported enough to come forward and speak out, and that crime can be prosecuted.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it makes complete sense, to be honest.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, um, an independent legal support or advisor, um, how difficult is that?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: And where would they come from?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Are they they're all lawyers?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Are they advocates?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Are they social workers?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Who do you foresee?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I'm assuming there are people offering these services at this point.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: So right now in New South Wales and Queensland, victims have access to independent legal representation.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: They just don't know it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a mixture of legal aid and the women's legal services.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And also there are in independent um providers as well.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: In Sydney, for example, my friend Karen Isles runs Violet and Co., which is an independent law firm.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And she would offer those services.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: People just don't know that they have a right to access those services.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: There, they're only you're only able to get legal representation, so legal standing, when it comes to really specific scenarios like the subpoenaing of your private documents.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't have legal representation the rest of the time.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like in cross-examination, for example, you can't have a lawyer in the room with you.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can't actually have anyone in the room with you other than your designated support person, which might be a witness assistance officer provided by the prosecution.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or in my case, I chose my godmother and she sat at the back in silence, in shock, like everyone else, with absolutely no ability to intervene in what was going on.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so following the Australian Law Reform Commission, um, which did a big recent inquiry into justice responses to sexual violence, I was on the expert advisory um group informing that inquiry.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we got independent legal representation in there as a recommendation.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the federal government, that's the last thing they did before they were um before the election was picked up independent legal representation to be federally funded.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: They want to do pilots across the country.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So there were already three pilots happening in Victoria, WA, and in the ACT.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: And now they want to expand those pilots.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we want to we want to get this right because it's really it seems like common sense at this point.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and really that's, I mean, I suppose that is good news to see that there's some traction.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: In the meantime, your service, your organization, your guide, as you refer to, what would you, if you could just take someone through if they had experienced sexual violence or abuse and wanted to take action, what would you say to them?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: And if you could just walk us through a, you know, a step-by-step, you know, the main steps, because obviously there's a gazillion steps that need to happen, but that would be helpful for anyone who wants to report an assessment.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I have people that use with you we can as a Bible when they go through the process.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I have people that use it to get informed of their options and make an informed decision not to proceed, which is just as important.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't live with that what if hanging over over you for the rest of your bloody life.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: But right now, in 2025, if I was assaulted, the first thing I would do was is call a sexual assault service, which you can access for free.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there will be a wait list.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, there's a bit of triage involved and coordination among services at this point.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe a social worker will refer you to another sexual assault support service that maybe is a bit further away but has less of a wait list.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: And first things first, that's what I would do to make sure I am supported, I am affirmed in that what happened to me was a crime.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then what I would do is decide what I want to do from here.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And to do that, you need to get informed of your options.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I would suggest people go to with you we can.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And people can go to with you we can, of course, before then to be, you know, to find out where their local um sexual assault services are.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you're just using it beforehand because you are fearful that your friend is potentially a perpetrator or someone who might be inclined to use violence.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's it's not just the guide, there are lots of supporting resources on the web.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I would then go through and I would look at what it takes to report.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: I would look through what it takes to make it through the criminal justice system.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: I would look at alternatives like restorative justice and whether I think that's something that I want to do.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would look at alternatives to reporting like um anonymous reporting.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Most states now offer an anonymous kind of form.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing full well that that form is still traumatizing and that form is nothing but census data.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: But census data is really important because the more we know that this is a problem, the more resources the government is going to give to fixing it, hopefully.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think the way it works.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would also, even if I wasn't interested in going forward, and you know, remember that's completely not up to me, and it's very likely that we won't proceed through the legal system.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: We know how rare it is that reports of sexual violence are even investigated because police don't even have an actual duty, a mandatory duty to investigate crime, which is another whole side piece.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um that is extraordinary.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you'd think it would be like the one job.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: If we ask anyone what the one job of a police officer is, it would be to investigate crime.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, my friend Karen Hiles, that I mentioned earlier, is working on that as well.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would go forward and make an initial report.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And as I'm saying this, this is for a white person in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, right?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are people where, you know, who are experiencing many, many intersecting forms of discrimination, like a First Nations woman in rural Australia.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if she goes to her police station, she risks being misidentified as the perpetrator, she misses being, uh, she risks being um outed by the police officer who knows her perpetrator, she risks the government taking her children.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the stakes are obviously incomparably higher.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: But back to me, because this is all I can speak to, white girl from the eastern suburbs, straight English speaking, lot of privilege.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: I feel lucky enough to have safe access to a police station, my local police station down the road.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would walk into that police station and I would ask to make an initial report.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: That looks like registering a name, registering that something happened, not signing any documents, you're not making a statement because once you sign a document, yeah.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's out of your hands.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's this is You're in the system.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I would just for me, and that's what I tried to do recently when I went back um to the police station was just that initial report that not many people know um is an option.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just taking uh an account really of the event.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: You'll still leave with an event number so that if you decide in future that you want to proceed, you don't have to start from scratch.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: They'll have that initial version of events on file.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I would do that in the meantime while you're deciding what you do, um, so that you know the account of the of the experience is fresh.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And also you're you're helping others even by not proceeding, just by registering a name.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: There is a little asterisk next to that perpetrator's name now, and that is picked up by all sorts of things.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Working with children, for example, uh future victims of theirs, police will see that in the system.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's just something useful that you can do.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little flag.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, particularly when you feel so powerless and out of control.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's something you can do for yourself and for others.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's very interesting to hear because really what you're saying is, and and it's good to hear at least there's some piloting of these new systems that hopefully will be implemented where there will be an independent advocate.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: In the meantime, there's your guide on the website.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: You've talked about the first few steps.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's no wonder, listening to everything, that most people are terrified of going into any of these systems and even reporting it at all, which brings us back to why people say, Well, why did you stay?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Or why didn't you action something?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or why didn't you well, this is why?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because, and then the consequence of that is it escalates and there's no consequence, et cetera, et cetera, as we know.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you think see things as we talk about this and as we explore this complex problem?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it's improving?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: And other than the pilot, as we've discussed, which hopefully gets implemented for independent legal support and advocates, is there anything else you're seeing traction on or improvement on?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: And what would be your secondary hope?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's tricky to answer.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: I see rage, I see rage as a tool in this sector, which is growing all the time, and an absolute determination to be heard and to not give up and for change to happen.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: I see people not falling for false promises by government.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I see people calling out peanuts in the budget that are given to the frontline.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I see young people hearing about consent as a buzzword and understanding that consent is not just something to be negatively associated with the justice system, but as a way to enhance intimacy and respect and understanding.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: I also see pushback from the bar and the legal system and judges.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: I see pushback from men's rights activists, I see pushback from, I don't know, is Bettina Aunt, I wouldn't call her a woman's right.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: What is she?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, from conservative, I guess.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: People who I think I think sexual violence really lends itself nicely to the cognitive dissonance we as humans need to go about our daily lives, knowing that the world is on fire and a horrendous place.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so people love to lean into that to protect themselves.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: They like to other victims and and blame what she was wearing or where she was or who she was with as a way to say that would never happen to me.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because it would.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing with sexual violence.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: If perpetrators were easy to spot, we wouldn't be here.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I see determination for change.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel that in certain parts of the government that we're being listened to, and in other parts, the the disparity between my experience and the experience of an Afghan woman who is reliant on her perpetrator for her visa status is just incomparable, as I've as I've said.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think there are things being done for her in the way that I think there are things being done for me.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why I'm so passionate about independent legal representation is that if we're gonna do anything, we need we need there to be actual enforcement of that legislation, and we need governance and accountability in part of that legislation, and we need remedy, the option for remedy.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Something can't be a right.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can't have a right to independent legal representation if there isn't remedy when that right is circumvented.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, whenever I'm advocating for change in this sector, while there are so many things that need to happen, independent legal representation picks up all of those pins.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who's gonna be the one enforcing eventually down the track jury directions when we can't rely on judges to do that?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Who's gonna make sure victims have access to their compensation and counseling schemes?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we can't rely on the Department of Communities and Justice to do that.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like the track record is there, that the data is there.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Victims need someone in their corner advocating for their interests, and that person has to be independent.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: They have to be independent, absolutely, and they have to be someone who can have legal standing and has actual respect and agency within the legal system.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, we're not actually seeing an improvement in things for victims.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're seeing them be more supported, and people can join me in their rage and feel angry about what's happened to me, but they can't do anything about it.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so independent legal representation has the potential to make sure a lot of reforms get enforced, not just the reform that implements it of itself, if that makes sense.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do, I have hopes.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And even these pilots, they're just the beginning.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna watch as we push out the remit of what an independent lawyer can do.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And again, within within limits, within we're not uh saying that victims are gonna be become a party and we're gonna overthrow the adversarial system.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is about efficiency, like this is about community efficiency and safety, and it's just what needs to be done, as we keep saying, it's it's common sense.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's common sense and it's extraordinary the work you're doing, especially as you say, from your lived experience, you've taken that journey and you've applied it to help others, and you've learned from it.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a you know all about lessons learned and how we can then apply that to the next chapter.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: And clearly, you've built something very important and very um pivotal.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: And let's hope we see traction, we see transformation, and I want to thank you so much for your very articulate um interview in a very difficult and complex space.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: I really do appreciate it.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, do you think I'm articulate and haven't been rambling on and yapping at you?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, there's so much to this problem, there are so many puzzle pieces, and any airtime we can give it is airtime that is much needed.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, and I actually agree, and I suppose that's something that that in this space, talking about it and conversations and having these sorts of conversations will hopefully facilitate and foster that traction.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having me, Deb.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Absolute pleasure, thank you.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: Love Death.