Latest / Finding God at Work / 19: When God Meets You After You Quit Working for Him (Ben Kraker)

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19: When God Meets You After You Quit Working for Him (Ben Kraker) · Finding God at Work

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, I'm Chris.
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This is Finding God at Work.
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Just a reminder that Finding God at Work
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isn't just a podcast, it's also an online
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course.
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Check it out at findinggodatwork.org.
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Our current series is Divine Disappointments, Facing Pain
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and Sorrow at Work.
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And today we have a special guest with
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us all the way from Grand Rapids, Michigan,
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Ben Crocker.
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Thank you for joining us.
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Thank you for the opportunity.
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I'm excited to be here.
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So I know Ben for a couple different
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reasons.
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We're in the same spiritual direction training course
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right now, which is why he came in
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from out of town.
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But I like to think he came in
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out of town just so we could do
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this podcast episode.
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I did come a day early and adjusted
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my work schedule to be here.
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It's that important.
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Praise the Lord.
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And it's great to be in the same
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physical three-dimensional space while we record this.
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And for listeners, Ben, in addition to being
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a spiritual director in training, he works in
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the managed IT space.
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He's a bit of a technophile.
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He loves using technology to serve other people.
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He recently was recovering from a jaw surgery
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and sort of accidentally fell into creating this
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app.
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Scenejournal.app is where you can go to
1:29
check out the Scene app.
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So an accidental app developer, but the app
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uses AI to create journaling prompts to help
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people reflect on their daily experience and already
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has several users and starting to take off.
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So I love all the kind of nooks
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and crannies of what Ben gets into as
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a creative and as a technologist.
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But he also wants to share a little
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bit about his story, having kind of shifted
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from a different vision of his career in
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an earlier stage.
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So excited for that, for our series about
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divine disappointments.
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So to start out, Ben, just as a
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get-to-know-you question, what helps you
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find God at work?
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What helps you welcome God's presence on a
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normal workday?
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I tend to operate very strongly by the
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clock.
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I'm fascinated by shifting my work schedule in
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order to take advantage of early mornings, things
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like that.
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And so that clockwork idea really plays into
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how I experience God at work as well.
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There's nothing better than just having a quiet
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moment in the morning before eight o'clock.
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I'm at my computer looking at the tasks
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for the day, but also just sitting with
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this thought of, it's quiet, nobody else is
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online, not my company, and it's just me
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and God kind of looking at the day
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and evaluating where to from here.
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And just the openness that that brings is
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one way that I really connect with God
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while at work, just acknowledging Him from the
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perspective of time.
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And as I approach the end of the
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day, yes, there's the excitement to be done,
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whether it's at three or five or however
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my schedule is for the day.
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But there's also just this divine sense of,
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God was with me in this workday, and
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it's helpful for me to have those benchmarks
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at the start of the day, in the
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middle of the day, and as the day
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ends, just to acknowledge that, yes, this work
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I'm doing is super nerdy, but it also
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helps me to think about the people that
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I've interacted with throughout the day, and also
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the moments that I saw God throughout the
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day.
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I love that sense of structuring time, not
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just for productivity, but also for presence.
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Being aware of God's presence, being aware of
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the people you were present to and that
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were present to you, and kind of weaving
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that work and that reflection and presence together.
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That's really beautiful.
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Yeah, it's been a very meaningful shift for
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me out of just looking at my productivity
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and really holding that presence and seeing that
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as just as important, if not more important,
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than the productivity piece.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So this series that we're doing is Divine
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Disappointments, and so I know you reached out
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to me when I was kind of looking
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for people to tell stories, because you've experienced
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some disappointment in your life.
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When we think about disappointments, we think about
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expectations.
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So when you think about the front end
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of your career, your first dream of what
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your career and your vocation would be like,
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what were those expectations that you had at
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that time?
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The expectations for my career, for a number
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of reasons, I didn't feel like I could
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actually have them for myself.
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I felt like that was something that would
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be sourced from somewhere else.
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It was almost as if I had this
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mentality from a young age that my vocation,
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my calling, my career is something that chooses
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me.
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I don't choose it.
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And that was the mentality that I started
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college and even my career with, was one
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of not one of choice, like I don't
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have a choice in this.
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I've always felt compelled to study youth ministry.
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My mentors growing up in high school and
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earlier have all encouraged me in that direction.
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So well, all these external signs are pointing
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to that, so that's what I'm going to
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go with.
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And that's the origin story of my early
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career experience.
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It was not something that I necessarily wanted
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to do.
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It was more, I felt such strong conviction
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that this is what I must do with
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my life.
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So yeah, it sounds like there was a
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lot of kind of external pressure in a
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way, a sense of this is what other
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people thought you should do.
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This is what other people saw in you.
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And you just had a sense of obligation
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to fit that mold.
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Yes.
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What was that like for you to experience
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when you were an undergrad?
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Was that something where it felt healthy?
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It felt like you could lean into it?
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Or how did that pressure affect you?
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The attention I received from my peers and
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professors was great, phenomenal.
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I came alive in a lot of ways
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with that enthusiasm and passion, but it was
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all very externally motivated and truthfully, yes, I
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was amped and excited and really living into
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this youth ministry view of myself.
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But internally, despite successes I was having early
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on, I was feeling empty.
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I was feeling dissatisfied.
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Even in college, I didn't have the vocabulary
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to name it that way quite yet.
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And so without the words to express how
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I was feeling and with the overwhelming feelings
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that were happening in my body and in
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my mind, I was in full-blown panic
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attack mode for a good portion of my
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college years because things were not in alignment
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internally versus what I was being told by
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those in my life who were important to
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me.
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So clearly there was something going on for
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you on the inside where there was distress,
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there was even literal panic sometimes, and yet
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this forward momentum of your career kind of
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continued in this trajectory.
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So fast forward, you got a job as
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a youth pastor right out of college, right?
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I did.
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I mean, it was my last class of
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my college experience.
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I had somehow managed to finish in three
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and a half years instead of four.
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And my last capstone class, one of the
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final assignments was to make a resume.
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So I created my resume and I was
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sitting in this capstone class a little bored
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and was like, you know what, I'm going
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to go online and post my resume somewhere.
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So I found the youth specialties job bank,
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put my resume up there, and within an
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hour I had heard from a pastor at
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a small church in rural Oregon of all
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places.
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And lo and behold, a few months later,
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a day after graduation, I was loading up
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my Nissan Sentra and my parents and I
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were driving across the country to Oregon to
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this church that had reached out on the
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same day that I posted my resume.
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And so again, as one who's looking to
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external forces, this must be where God wants
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me.
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It can't just be a coincidence.
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God must be at work and therefore I
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must go to Oregon because this pastor reached
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out to me and he's interested in hiring
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me.
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And so again, it was an external force
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deciding for me what my future would be.
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So that sense of kind of being carried
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along by these external forces, other people's expectations,
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carried you into this youth ministry role.
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Tell me about some good things from those
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years in youth ministry, but then also what
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was going on internally for you as those
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things were happening?
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So I served at the first church that
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I moved across the country for.
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I was there roughly three years and there
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were some pretty phenomenal things that happened in
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that span of time.
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I was able to connect with an incoming
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class of freshmen and follow them into their
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senior year.
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And one of the students who had come
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from a very rough family background, I formed
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a really tight mentoring relationship with him, which
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of course became another external thing I could
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point to and say, well, look, I'm being
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effective with this young man, so therefore I
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need to stay.
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I really saw some cool things happen, even
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though my focus was on the external.
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I did see God at work.
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And this young man who came from a
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very broken, disjointed home environment eventually found himself
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in the highest ranks of the Pentagon as
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a chaplain with access to so much data
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and so much that few civilians or even
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army personnel are privy to in the Pentagon
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of all places.
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And I just look at that as another
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confirmation almost of, okay, well, yeah, maybe there
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was something there.
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But in the background of all of that
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was this foreboding sense of disillusionment that just
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grew and grew.
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And because of the economy and where things
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were at in 2008, it was just very
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difficult for the church to afford having a
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full-time youth pastor and to make that
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a reality.
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And it came to a point where they
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were without a senior pastor.
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I didn't feel like I could fill that
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role.
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I didn't have that intrinsic motivation to pursue
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that role.
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So I instead looked for a different job.
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Ended up in a church that, honestly, I
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knew from the start wasn't really the best
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fit.
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But young family, we needed income.
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I needed a job.
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Push was coming to shove with the first
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church and the timeline that we had set.
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So I took this second job against my
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better judgment.
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And again, that was a decision made on
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external forces, not one made from a, this
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is what I feel I need to be
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doing with my life.
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Frankly, I don't think I ever stopped and
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asked that question.
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What do I want to do?
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And so I just went into the second
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church with the same mentality, looking for those
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external confirmations that I'm where I need to
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be, and they just weren't coming.
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Instead, everything was just difficult from my working
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relationship with the pastor to the issues with
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some of the students and the families that
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I was serving.
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There was nothing that I could point to
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and say, yep, this is where I need
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to be.
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And that was very disillusioning to come to
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terms with the fact that I'm on empty,
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not having an impact, and I don't know
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how in the world I got here.
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JG I love that phrase.
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I mean, I hate it for what it
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must have felt like for you, but I'm
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on empty.
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Like you've been running your ministry career on
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this certain kind of fuel, and then you
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just realize it's gone.
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I don't have that fuel anymore.
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CB It dried up.
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It was, yeah, almost overnight, it seemed like.
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And that feeling of what is there to
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fall back on at that point?
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What's secure if you don't have all of
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this external validation that you were used to
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getting?
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How did that job end?
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And then how did that lead to a
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different kind of interior experience for you?
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JG So that job ended with the pastor
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going to the board and saying, I don't
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want Ben anymore, so let's ask him to
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resign.
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And the board kind of rubber-stamped that
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decision.
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It was a very unhealthy church leadership structure,
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where if the pastor wanted something, he would
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just float that to the board, and the
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board would just kind of, without thinking, endorse
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it, and so that was that.
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Because I had a strange relationship with the
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senior pastor, that was enough to ask me
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to resign.
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And again, being on empty, that was devastating,
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because here I had given, at that point,
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four years of, well, three and a half
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years of college, and then three years at
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the first church, and now two years at
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the second church.
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We're approaching a decade of my life that
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I've given to make this dream work.
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And then I realized, I don't think this
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is really what I want.
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I don't think this is the dream.
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And so I ended up moving back to
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Michigan.
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A lot of different things happened to bring
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me to the world of sales and copy
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machines, and that was very disorienting to see.
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Something that appeared so random and so not
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what I was seeking at all, ended up
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being the thing that started to fill me
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and give me that purpose and meaning.
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I found myself selling copy machines to churches,
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and I knew how to talk church, and
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ended up actually building a pretty solid portfolio
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of churches and nonprofits in the Grand Rapids
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area.
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And that experience opened the door through connections
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that I made in those settings to where
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I am now.
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And I love it.
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I've always been a nerd by heart.
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Technology is something that fascinates me.
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I love using technology to enhance the human
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experience, to enhance even our divine connections with
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God.
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And it's just been fascinating to shift out
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of this mindset of, I have to do
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youth ministry because that's what these external forces
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are pointing me towards.
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And instead, now shifting into the tech space
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by choice.
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I'm here because I want to be here,
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because this is giving me purpose.
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And I do find God in the midst
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of my day here.
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And I love the people that I work
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with, the customers, my co-workers, the stories
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that I've been able to hear and the
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insights I've been able to share.
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It's so much more than what my early
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career offered.
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Some days I feel like I do more
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ministry now in the tech space than I
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ever did when I was trying to live
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into somebody else's dream for my career.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It sounds like obviously there's a shift in
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the what of your work, but it also
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sounds like there's a shift in the why.
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Yes.
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Like there's more intrinsic motivation.
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There's more you in the work that you're
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doing than before.
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And in that sense, there's also more space
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for God to be present in your life.
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Yeah.
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It's remarkable.
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My parents had always said growing up that
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I should go into the tech space, and
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I would just kind of laugh at that.
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Like, why?
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I'm supposed to go into youth ministry, don't
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you know?
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My mom, especially, over the years has just
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been my biggest cheerleader.
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And when I made that shift into more
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tech-focused work, she, you know, the loving
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mom, I told you so.
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In a very loving and affirming way, she's
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always just been one to remind me that,
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you know, those interests and passions that I
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have are not by accident, and it's okay
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to live into those things, and to let
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those things guide and direct my career choices.
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And as I do, it's exactly as you
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said.
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God meets me there, and really cool things
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happen.
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Praise the Lord.
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Well, I wish we could keep going, but
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would you be willing to just close us
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in prayer, Ben, and maybe pray for listeners
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who might be struggling with that sense of
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other people's expectations, and might need permission for
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that interior life and that space to matter?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Well, let's pray.
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God, in the earliest book of the Bible,
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Genesis, we encounter Hagar, the first person to
20:24
give you a name.
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And I just cling to the truth in
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that Hagar named you the God who sees
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Elroy.
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And God, you see each of us.
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You see the unique interests and passions that
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you've instilled in us.
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You see our past, our future, and our
20:45
present.
20:47
You see the things that weigh us down
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and burden us.
20:53
You see the things that give us life
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and fulfillment and peace and joy.
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God, I pray for the listeners that they
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would find comfort in being seen by you,
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and that they would also come to see
21:08
themselves as you see them, to see the
21:12
uniqueness in each of them.
21:16
God, I pray against any external force that
21:19
would try to supersede that view.
21:23
I pray that the listeners would have a
21:27
proper view of themselves and of you, and
21:32
that they would truly open themselves up to
21:36
the big questions of, where are you, God?
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And how can I meet you there?
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Thank you for being the God who sees
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each one of us in our hurting, as
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Hagar was hurting in the desert.
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And you see us in our joy, and
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you see us in all of the moments.
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So I pray that you would see us
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in our work, and that we would also
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see you in our work.
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And it's in Christ's name we pray all
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of this.
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Thanks for listening.
22:14
Finding God at Work is a production of
22:17
Mission Central, a ministry based in Aurora, Illinois,
22:20
dedicated to forming Christians for mission in everyday
22:22
life.
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You can subscribe to the podcast wherever you
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listen to this episode to get 10 minutes
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To get resources to go deeper with each
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