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How To Fix The 2027 Phillies · The Specific Jawns

• speaker-0: What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Specific Johns Podcast, your premier source for all things. Philadelphia Phillies. as we are recording right now, the Milwaukee Brewers are hopefully on the verge of defeating the Tampa Bay Rays and sweeping the World Series so that we can end this God Forsaken season and start looking forward to the next God Forsaken season. And we're gonna start that process here today. I am joined, as always, by my good friends, my co host, my fellow Johns, Carl Bakudi. Mike Sambuco. guys, how we doin'? speaker-1: Good Pat. Don't don't wish away the baseball season, man. We we gotta we got a potentially extra long off season ahead of us. I I gotta squeeze every bit of juice I can out of this one. It's been a good series other than game three. good baseball. The right teams are in it. yeah, I I'm riding that way for now. speaker-2: Sooner the World Series ends, the sooner the Phillies real off season begins. So I'm good either way. speaker-0: Well, I I have been watching a little bit of this series and yeah, game three got away from them yesterday. I I I I we don't have to talk about the World Series. there's just one thing that I wanna know because it's popping up a lot out here in LA and frankly I think it's hilarious, but also a byproduct of twenty seventeen. do you guys think that the Brewers are cheating? speaker-1: No No. speaker-0: That is I cannot tell you how much traction that is getting out here because A, I think the fans are they they are in disbelief that any team could ever defeat the Mighty Dodgers. ignoring the fact that for the last three months of the season they could not hit at all. and then they're like, How did Jake Bowers work an eleven pitch at bat one day and a twelve pitch as if they haven't seen Chris Taylor and Max Muncie and all these journeymen get big hits in the playoffs for years now. but they're still hurt by the Astros, I think. So they are everybody's on high alert out here. They're like, There's no way they're they're fouling off that many pitches. speaker-1: That makes a lot more speaker-2: They had the signs against Mason Miller, remember? They like in the NLDS. But that's not cheating. That's just good gamesmanship. speaker-0: Exactly. I've also heard disbelief that Contreras could possibly be that good at challenging pitches, and he must have a voice in his headset that's telling him when to challenge. So people are very paranoid out here. It's fun to watch. I'm like as a Phillies fan, I'm like, no, you just get used to your team not being the best team all the time. You get used to them not being good enough. And that's certainly where we were. So if nothing else, I wanna commend Phillies fans on not making excuses and whining and complaining about everything. 'Cause it's embarrassing. If any of my Dodgers fans, fan friends are listening, you guys are embarrassing. let's get into the Phillies off season. Carl, you missed the the podcast last week. I I would have loved to have gotten your thoughts on the Dombrowski press conference because a lot was a lot was said. But just to recap, kind of the big takeaways from that are we are committing Early for reasons that I we don't fully understand, to having Trey Turner at shortstop. We are committing early to having Bryce Harper at first base, and we are telegraphing our hand across the board. The only real development since last week's podcast was the hiring of a new hitting coach, who you're not gonna believe this, was formerly a hitting coach under Alex Kora in Boston. I I've never heard a name associated with the Phillies more without actually ever being a part of the Phillies than Alex Kora. I can't wait until I don't have to hear about this guy anymore. But now we are scrounging the dumpster behind Fenway Park to try to find his old coaches, maybe in an effort to lure him over. I don't know. What do you make of the hiring? Are you guys excited? for the Pete Fatso era? speaker-1: No, other than I I love the the concept of a guy named Fatso or Fatso, whatever it is, emphasizing plate approach. So that that's fun to me. Yeah, I i there's no reason not to have wild theories about how Dombo is coming up with this guy, whether it's to lure Cora or because he only knows five people in baseball. I I I don't know. I'm not gonna get excited about this guy or and I'm not gonna get upset about the guy either until I hear what he's about, see what he does in spring training at least. you know, changing of the guard was necessary. Glad to see he is making the moves, at least exiting the people he needed to. but going from here, I don't think we have anything to work from, Mike. speaker-2: I I I don't even think I'll be satisfied during spring training. I need to see it in the regular season. It's y so many spring trainings are filled with we're working on this, we're working on that, and then you know, the regular season starts and it's all out the window. so it and plus you're not even gonna have a in all you know, in all likelihood you're not gonna have a regular spring training with the the impending lockout. So it's it's gonna be a kind of a wait and see approach for me. I'm not gonna say I'm in love with the hiring or or and hate it. It's i I gotta see what this guy's made of and see w wha how wha how can he can even make an impact on a team that is loaded with veterans that probably have their own approach that probably won't do much with anything that he says. I am enjoying the the idea of a a Pete Fatsi in in Philly. speaker-1: Absolutely. Here's one little tributary I'd like to go down. what was it about Kevin Long that that we can say definitively knew he did poorly? And what do we want to see done differently, other than everything? I I have some ideas of what I want out of a hitting coach, at least in this era of baseball and and through this run of Phillies baseball. And that has everything to do with getting away from the three two true outcome swing. and emphasizing the mental part of hitting, the the getting up there and having a game plan and an approach. I I don't know how much it was about swing mechanics with Kevin Long. I I suspect that that's why guys like Schwarber and Harper love the guy because he tweaked very good swings in the great swings, perhaps, in their minds. I didn't see him do that with anybody else, especially not young players. And the mental aspect is what I'm hoping to hear Fatso is pretty good at. speaker-0: Yeah, first of all I love that we've just accepted his the pronunciation of his name as Fatso. Thank you guys for immediately being on board with that bit. We'll carry that for as long as it takes. as long as he's in Philadelphia. Yeah, for me, it's just kinda like using the young players as some sort of litmus test. I refuse to use the overall team numbers and say that they are completely indicative of who the guy is. It's one of the reasons I'm really not passing a ton of judgment on him right away, because if you do look at his numbers in Boston, they seem to point to Slug is up, on base is down, they're not walking a whole lot. I understand different personnel, everything like that, so I'm not gonna read too much into it. But For me, the most damning thing about Kevin Long was the fact that I don't feel like Alec Bone, Brandon Marsh, or Bryson Sott really made any progress over the course of his entire tenure in Philadelphia. So whoever those guys end up being, and some of it's gonna depend on what happens this offseason, but whatever happens with Bryce Harper or Kyle Schwarber next year, to me is almost independent of Fatso. He might have an impact on on Turner. But really I'm looking at how does Justin Crawford, move forward from here? How does if Aiden Miller is a significant part of the future, how are those guys, you know, year over year, how are they moving forward? That would be the biggest thing I'm looking towards. And yeah, played approach is the biggest immediate short term thing that he could try to implement, but it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. I would be pleasantly surprised if he could pull that off. speaker-2: I I think priority number one for me is getting Turner back to where he needs to be. And that's taking a more patient approach at the plate, limiting those fly balls and weak pop ups. he needs to be a guy who hits line drives and ground balls through the middle. And I I just I need him in if he's gonna be at the top of the lineup, I need him to to hit the ball with authority. speaker-0: Yeah, that's I think that's the biggest immediate impact the Phillies could make in house is Trey Turner doing a one eighty from last season and getting back to to where he was. And you said at the top of the lineup, it's very funny because I in preparing for this episode and thinking about like what we're going to pitch as our ideal, you know, scenario, boy, all the guys we talk about being at the top of the lineup and not fitting at the top of the lineup I I'm not sure we have a guy who really does fit at the top of the lineup. So it would also I think really behoove the Phillies if this new hitting coach is able to make an impact on Bryson Stott to where he could become a legitimate option up there. Because yeah, you say, well, we can't have Schwarber there and we can't have Turner up there, and then you're like, Ooh, boy, I our options might be a little bit limited. But without further ado, let's just jump into it. I think we exist In two very different realms as Philadelphia fans. One is the conventional reality that we're all stuck in, where we have to acknowledge some facts about this team when it comes time to rebuild, right? And I I'm just gonna say this because I get so sick of reading comment sections that are like trade Turner and trade, you know, XY trade the three worst players with the three worst contracts and bring in guys who are really good and cheap. The world doesn't work that way. There are Commitments that they cannot avoid, no trade clauses, 10 and 5 deals, everything like that. And then there are commitments that they are self-imposing for reasons I don't understand, i.e., Turner being the shortstop no matter what to start the season. But existing within that reality, I'm gonna ask you guys two questions. Number one, what will the Phillies do? What do you expect them to do? Give me some names and an overall idea of what you expect out of this offseason. And then number two, and this is the more fun part of the exercise, what should they do? And I would ask you to still operate within a little bit of reality there and and realize these limitations, but you could bend the rules a little bit. But I I just want to jump into it and figure we'll get a a free flowing discussion out of it. So whichever you guys wants to go first, what should the Phillies do and what will they do? speaker-1: Do you want what will they do first? speaker-0: Yeah, let's go I I said it backwards there. Let's go with what will they do first, and then we'll work our way up to the actual good stuff. speaker-1: So I I think they're in a position where they're going to wait until after the CBA is signed. And I think I'm gonna I'm gonna put a lot more faith in John Middleton than he deserves. But I think he's gonna see some writing on the wall. There's a couple things that we see already. Season ticket sales have plummeted, at least the the renewals have plummeted compared to any time in in this decade. we're looking at a potential restructuring of either the luxury tax thresholds or whatever the cap is or if it's a floor. I think we're gonna wait and see if the the the big dogs are truly going to be punished by this C B A. I know the players don't necessarily want that. They don't want to give any owner any reason to spend less money than they can. So I think John Middleton is gonna have to strut in there as soon as the C B A is done, as a big dog. who is actually maybe a little hungrier hungrier and a little more powerful than before. as far as I'm concerned is he he he kinda worked with a coupon this past off season. He wasn't willing to take that extra leap into the luxury tax. And I think he's gonna see what that does to his wallet with season ticket sales, especially once we come out of the C BA and the season's ready to go. He needs to make big splashes and he's gonna have to spend to get to make that work. I can talk a little bit about what I would do myself in terms of trade options, but in terms of what I expect from this team, I don't expect any huge stars to be traded for valuable win now pieces. I do expect, you know, gaping holes at third base and the outfield that will need to be filled by free agents, whether that's international stars or or guys that are out there. We already know that the outfield market is not great. the outfield Really the outfield across MLB is not great. as much as we've suffered and want to compare, you know, that's not really the conventional way of thinking of left field, center field, right field, the corners being power, center being light hitting defense. you know, we we kind of have this magical idea of who's who we can go grab, but they're not really there on the free agent market. So I think you know, this guy, Tarawaki Sato, it from Japan, Big time slugger, third baseman, maybe an outfielder. that's how he's projecting. I think we gun hard at a guy like that. and I think that is the type of big splash that will get people excited or at least intrigued with our baseball team. so I'll I'll stop there in terms of what I think they will do. and I'll I'll punt over to speaker-2: So I I have I have him on my wild plan for saved for later, but I I do think that they're gonna go try and get a guy like Tarayaki Sato. I think he's the type of Japanese power bat that they have been targeting for for forever. I mean they they want to make a big splash in the Japanese market and just have not succeeded in in doing so, whether it's Yamamoto or or other guys prior. I think the only thing that gives me pause with him is that he's another left-handed bat. And I think they need to more focus their attention in the outfield towards a Suzuki or a Rosarena for that for that balance in in their lineup. somebody who's gonna protect Schwarber or Harper probably slot into the four slot in the lineup. And I think think if I were to pick one over the other, I would pick Suzuki because he's been a bit more consistent over the past four years. both are all four of his five years with the Cubs, he's had an OPS over eight hundred. Whereas Rosarant had a a fantastic 2026, but a pretty dismal twenty-five. so he's he's more of an up and down kind of bat, and that kinda scares me long term. So I'd be in in my more likely plan I have them signing Suzuki. speaker-1: I'm like, these guys a little bit better than I do. neither is a center fielder true, right? speaker-2: I think no do it. Neither have S yeah, they're they're corner guys. Both I would slot Suzuki and right field if if if that's who they end up signing. speaker-1: My my concern there and and yeah, we right handed bat is still a need if we're gonna have anybody protecting anybody at the top of the order. But my my concern is that the one thing the one guy I do expect to trade is R Brandon Marsh. and that leaves us with a you know, sort of slotting Justin Crawford over to left field, which is probably where he belongs defensively. So That plan is decent a Rosarena or Suzuki, but I I just still see this outfield that's patched together defensively. speaker-2: No doubt. And and I think that's where the uncertainty of Turner comes into play. May he start the season at shortstop? Yes. Will that last the full season? We have no idea at this point. And that's where Dembrossi's job was made harder by what he he stated last week. and I think if if I'm planning for twenty seven, knowing that that's a possibility that Turner could end up in the outfield. I'm not spending big bucks on both a right fielder and a left fielder. So you have to consider a situation where maybe you find a platoon partner for Brandon Marsh in left field and you keep him and maybe sign a guy like Taylor Ward to be that right-handed platoon bat. speaker-0: Yeah, I I I think we're hitting a lot of the same names. I think we're all existing in kind of the same reality here. And the reality is that there is not a whole lot the Phillies can do. They built their team in a way where Dombrowski was pushing as many chips into the center as he could to try to win a World Series. And let's be really clear, the way he he builds a team If this team had gotten the job done in 23, at this point, you're willing to suffer. There's a reason everybody remembers the 08 era fondly, because we won a World Series. It went on way too long. We kept the guys way too long. It started a rebuild period that lasted a f a decade, which was a nightmare, but it was all worth it for the World Series. If you don't win a World Series, it's not worth it. So he went all in to try to do this thing. There's no graceful way to back out of that and maneuver and pivot. You built this thing on free agency. You kind of have to keep doing the same thing on free agency. And that's what I suspect that they're going to do. I one thing that I think differently from you guys on, or at least Carl, because you said you'd think they're gonna wait until after the CBA, I think there's a good chance that if they identify somebody that they want to spend a lot of money on. I think they could strike very quickly on that with the idea that whatever happens with the CBA, there's going to be a period of rolling it out. They're not gonna go to these teams and be like, Hey, you your payroll is four hundred million, the new cap is three hundred million, you have to get rid of a hundred million dollars of contracts before opening day. I don't see any way that's gonna happen. I think guys will be grandfathered in. So I think that the big name free agents are gonna wanna move quickly and I think the Phillies will have an interest in doing that as well. To me go ahead. speaker-2: The only thing I was gonna add, is that the rumor is that Taraki Sato is going to get posted in November because he wants to sign before the CBA expires. And that that just throws a h wrench into everything in terms of the teams that want to wait can't wait for him. speaker-0: And for me, that's that's the guy you need. Wha what were you gonna say, Carl? speaker-1: Well, I I'm just curious what the players union is going to encourage in this interim period. I I I just thinking the way unions work, especially the ML BPA does, they want to be a united front in front of a a you know, a a new CBA situation. So the the type of names that I could see flying off the board early are not the big splash guys. It's gonna be y you know, either a a Some veterans are just hoping to squeeze another two, three years out of their career, and have some security for their families, know where they're gonna move to. or some guys, you know, coming off of sort of rookie contracts that that might feel a little bit uncertain for the same reason. But no, an international star is probably the only guy I would expect to go early for the the reasons that Seto probably has. I don't know. I I just I have trouble believing that there's gonna be a flurry of activity going into this lock out. speaker-0: we'll see. We'll see. I think the players association could, like you say, advise them to wait until after. We're not privy to those conversations. I'm just kinda going off a hearsay, and it seems like it's likely that there will be a lockout. It's likely that we will miss some of the season. and I think that It's also likely that it won't last longer than maybe sixty games into the season. I've heard that as a cutoff because that's when the T V rights deals change. If there it it triggers a clause that I don't think anybody wants to deal with. so I could see this thing lasting into kind of the end of May, and then we have a little bit of a sprint to the finish line, which frankly, for an aging team like the Phillies, would not be the worst thing. To cut sixty games off of the season I think it would benefit them quite a bit, but that's neither here nor there. To me, Sato is the guy that you have to get. He's not a perfect fit because he is left-handed. I agree with that. I wish he was right-handed. But the reason he's the guy, in my mind, is because one thing when you approach team building the way the Phillies do, one thing that is incredibly difficult to do at any point is to get younger. And it's always difficult to get younger via the free agent market because of the six years of service time. Guys don't become free agents until they're 30. Sato is 27. Seya Suzuki is 32. There's a significant difference there. We have to get guys under 30 if it's at all possible. And this is one of the fe you you see also when like American free agents, the idea of a twenty-eight-year-old free agent. People lose their minds. That's how Juan Soto ended up with seven hundred and sixty-five million dollars. Because they were like he's twenty-seven instead of thirty-one. that's a big, big deal to these teams to get those extra years of control. So I think they just gotta bite the bullet and try to get Sato. I I think that that's really the best move, but I don't expect them to be able to do a whole lot creatively. And even if they were able to do it, I don't think they have a want to do it. You heard Dave, another thing that he you know, kinda telegraphed at his press conference was We're not going to trade from our starting pitching. Now that could be a lie. That could just be a public statement, but he's giving me no reason to believe. Everything he says publicly, he goes and does. He just telegraphs all his moves. So it would seem like the one area of like overabundance of strength on your team that you would have resources to trade from. They don't seem interested in trading from that. So I don't know what you could do, how you could get creative at this point if those are truly his beliefs. They're gonna have to do this thing through free agency. The good news is one of the areas that they struggle the most in relief pitching is in theory one of the easiest ones to beef up via free agency. There's a lot of names out there. Of course, relief pitchers are, you know, finicky. They could be great one year and terrible the next, but there's a l There are a lot of really good names on the free agent relief pitcher market relative to the other positions. speaker-2: Yeah, it's a bad year for wanting a bat and a good year for wanting I would say even starting pitching, there's some some good options. relief pitching has some some good options as well, and I think that's where my focus is outside of the offense is we need to shure up w the the bullpen with at least three arms. And whether they come from a trade or free agency, guys like Jason Adam, who I I've really liked fr when he was with Tampa. He got injured early on in his San Diego Padres career, but he's rebounded since then. And he's a free agent. I think you know, he's he's on the older side, but I think you should be able to get somebody like him for you know, y it could be a two year deal, but it's not gonna break the bank. And he could slot in into the the eighth inning role that we need. speaker-0: I I I have my sights set even higher. There are and we'll we'll we'll get to some of the other names in a minute, but I'm looking at the free agent relief pitchers. And really, by the way, before we get into what our ideal offseasons are, one of the funniest gallows humor kind of things I've seen around the Phillies, in preparing for this, I was looking up a list of they have all of the free agents listed by position on MLB.com and they are They are ordered by their combined war over the last two seasons. And if you go to relief pitchers, the name one spot above Jose Alvarado is Emmanuel Classe. You may remember Emmanuel Classe as the guy who got banned from baseball before the All-Star break last season for gambling. So in half a season, Emmanuel Classe posted a higher war than Alvarado did over the last two years. I just thought that was that summed up where we're at nicely. but I I do agree. I think everybody is in agreement that our the main areas that this team needs to focus on are, shoring up the bullpen, figuring out a way to add a right handed bat. the areas of need, depending on where guys move over the next couple of years, I I think right field is probably look, Turner, when he does move off of shortstop, I don't see him being a right fielder. I think that's I I don't think that's the ideal position for I think he's a left fielder probably. and I think that Crawford really profiles more as a corner guy. So you could say that center field is a need, maybe not in the immediate, but for the, you know, the shorter version of the long term. There are very few positions where I just feel like we are completely set and ready to start, you know, the next run of Philly's baseball. But I'll stop talking now. I will turn it over to you guys. Give me your version of what the Phillies should do this offseason. speaker-1: Mike, I'll let you go first. speaker-2: So I mentioned fortifying the bullpen is is a big piece of my off season and I think a guy like Josh Hader is going to be available this off seas season. He's coming off of a fantastic twenty twenty six season where his ERA was just over one. And he's got two years at thirty eight million total left on his contract, and Houston looks like they're going to be doing some selling. and he's a guy that could feet fetch them a piece or two. but I don't know if it's gonna break the bank. I and I I just love the track record. don't love the guy himself. He's kind of an odd g odd duck there, but you know, we need a a guy from the left side of the mound, and he would be a great one to punch with our closer Juan Duran. speaker-0: That's it. That's your only move. speaker-2: That's not my only move. I was I was wondering if you wanted to react. but okay, so I mentioned go f go for it. speaker-0: react to it. I I really I love it. I love I love the idea of and you know some of this is just like I feel like every time I tune into a playoff game the last decade, you know, the most successful teams are the ones that could just throw you know arm after arm at you. You look at what the Brewers are doing with Eurebay and Ashby and McGill like McGill is a top flight closer and there are games where they're like, sit down. Ashby's got this. they have so many pieces. DL Hall, all of these guys that they can mix and match and put in there. I think, the most effective way to do that is the way that they did, which is really smart team building, but we're incapable of that. So the second best way is to go out and get established guys and kind of pair them together and make a two or three headed monster at the back of the bullpen. So I'm I'm all for it. I think it's great. speaker-2: And and I mentioned Jason Adam as a guy that I like from the right side. and if you bring in a a hater, I mean y that lessens the need for a Jason Adam, but it I'm all for fortifying the bullpen with even more arms. and I and I don't love the idea of trading for arms at the trade deadline because they're much less expensive in the off season. I'd rather spend money than spend prospect capital on a on a arm that probably will end up being a rental for you know a a mid season pickup. Another guy that I think could be a beneficial lower cost ad to the bullpen is a guy like Hobie Milner, former Phil, you may remember, but he's he's a guy that, you know, he would be a lefty specialist, sixth inning guy, can plug him in if you need to, to get a big out later in the game against you know, a tough lefty, with two outs and an inning. but just a a lower cost lefty arm is something they need. speaker-0: Yeah. I I I definitely they need a lot of arms. Let me let me let me ask this before we get on to the more specifics. If you are legitimately sitting back and assuming you're gonna have an eight person bullpen and assuming that Johan Duran is anchored at the top of it, how many if you're Dave Dombrowski, how many relief pitchers are you trying to add this offseason? speaker-2: I I think they need three. they they have you could argue they have all but three slots kinda locked in already. whether that's locked in based on performance or contract or options, it kinda varies. I mean there are guys like Caleb Killian that I like I they seem to really like and I don't know if he's that good or not, but we'll find out. They've already given Tim Mayza a major league deal. That's fine. we know Duran and McFarlane are gonna be there. the guy that's a big wild card is Kirkering. I he's got options, but I think he's more likely to be traded. it's just a matter of like what can you actually get for him at this point. speaker-0: Yeah, Carl, what do you think of Mike's remade bullpen with Adam and Hader in the back end? speaker-1: I I just have a general idea of bull pens and how you build them and so much of it is a roll of the dice. I I I wanna dial the clock back a year ago, you know, not an off season ago. We went into this season talking about how our bullpen was one thing we do not have to worry about for the Phillies in twenty twenty six. We said that. We knew that. Yeah. Now, you know, Brad Keller got hurt. Whatever. He was the big splash free agent signing. But we looked at a lot of names up there and said, we're we're rock solid and we didn't even have McFarlane as a glit in our eye at the beginning of the year. And he ended up being one of the two guys that we trusted in the postseason. So I I can't that that can't be the the the the big lead strategy in the offseason to me. Not not for a team that is if you're trying to contend, yeah, if you're not but if you're not gonna have go after a known closer, a guy who can fill that role, who who can have the highest leveraged position and and succeed, just get a bunch of arms. S sign everybody and and and figure it out in spring training. I I don't I don't buy all the names you mentioned on the Brewers and Rays, Pat. They could just as easily turn into nothing next year. It happens all the time in in major league baseball with bullpen guys who aren't elite closers. So I I just, in terms of what I would do myself, that that's actually third or fourth run wrong on my list of top priorities. I know we need a better bullpen than we had last year. but you know, I do feel like we have three solid pieces and we're we're naturally going to fill out the roster with somebody else, at least one other big name, and then a bunch of other prove it guys. that that's that's how it goes all the time. so yeah, that those are just my thoughts about, you know, building the bullpen this offseason. speaker-2: And I I I also don't love spending, you know, big money contracts on the bullpen, but at the same time I don't feel like they have the resources trade wise to spend those resources on bullpen pieces. They need to spend that on bats if they're gonna make a big trade. speaker-0: Yeah, I I tend to agree on that. I think that it is the position that's easiest to upgrade through free agency. And I think that if you're going to upgrade it through free agency, i understood that there is a degree of risk to all these guys. It's the nature of the beast with relief pitchers. But y you want to take the one with the least amount of risk possible. I would rather have an Adrian Morahone than some random lefty where it's like, I don't just want to buy lottery tickets on this thing. I really don't. And that's not to say that it couldn't it couldn't still go wrong. Keller, I thought was a good signing and it went terribly. That happens, I get it. But to me, if I'm looking at it, I'm looking at names like Adrian Morahone, I'm looking at names like Ray Selliglacius. I'm looking at names like Alex Vesia, who is a guy I I've watched in LA for a number of years. I really like him, I like his energy, I like what he brings to the bullpen. Got a little bit of that Alvarado walks too many guys kind of thing going on, but he's intense, he strikes out a bunch of dudes, he everybody on the team loves him. That's a guy that I would look at. Iglesias has been one of the most consistent relief pitchers in the sport for a long time now. And because of his age, you can probably get him on a one year deal. He signed a one year deal last offseason. Now the Braves are gonna want to bring him back, and you might not have a shot at him. That's fine, but I I I'm making a list of the guys that I think would have the best chance of improving this bullpen because they're out there. And I think not going after them is is really unacceptable. And it reminds me of kind of what they did With the starting pitching last year, where we all sat here and we were like, it's not deep enough. It's not deep enough. They're not getting enough guys. So they they definitely gotta go out and take some chances on the bullpen this year. I agree though, Carl, that it is not the most important thing for me. The most important thing is this lineup. and I guess let's go back to you, Carl. You kick this one off. This is where I think that we have the most room to kinda do some things and take some swings. What are the swings you're taking? speaker-1: The big swing I'm taking, this is gonna be wild, is I'm gonna shop Kyle Schwarber. That that's what I would do first and foremost this off season. And I'll give you my reasons why. I love Kyle Schwaber, we all do. Great team guy, great player. a lot of money invested in that guy who doesn't play the field. we've known since the twenty twenty two offseason that this team has way too many designated his hitters, and we are locked in with several still. We've got JT Romuto for another two years. We've got Bryce Harper. you know, we got rid of Nick Castellanos, but everyone's gonna need, you know, a a day off here and there, and you you plug him in the D eighth spot. he's still got a ton of value around the league. We know how his reputation carries him in this league. But here's what Kyle Schwarber effectively does for this team. We know when he gets hot, he's Got a historic track record in the month of June. hit and season, as Charlie Manuel would call it. And what I've seen in the past several years is Kyle Schwarber gives this front office an out. He gets hot at the right time, right before the trade deadline. He gives he gets us all thinking maybe this lineup is just fine. And nothing happens. There's no big splash, and then what happens in September and October? Kyle Schwarber has a tendency to go cold. I'm not saying he's not a clutch postseason hitter or anything like that. I'm not putting any other kind of stank on him. But I've seen his his value with this team be less than it would be with others. And I just think shopping him and you don't even have to make it too known, but letting it be known a little bit would would rattle the right cages to me. It it would it would shake the tree a bit and see what comes out. See who would be disgruntled by that in the clubhouse. And maybe start to shop them too. because this is a team that needs a a a a wide overhaul. I I said before we went into game one of the the wild card series this year. We need to blow this team up if we don't win the World Series. We need to blow this team up if we win the World Series this year. It it it needs that much of an overhaul. And to me, he's the piece that one has has value, that two will shake things up in a a fundamental way. and and you know, just kind of makes sense given the makeup of the team, that that he is the piece that might be getting in the way of value in other areas that might in total add up to more than what Kyle Schwarber has given you or will give you in the future. So I'd start there. speaker-0: Trading Schwarz, Mike, what do you think? speaker-2: So I I am assuming you're not going to compete next year, if that's the plan. speaker-1: I don't think so. I that's not my where my head's at. I think you can get major league ready, major league valuable pieces for Kyle Schwaber and nobody else on this team outside of the starting rotation. And to me, I know we were mad that Dombo telegraphed that. to me, the bedrock of this organization, of this roster is the starting pitching. I'm not looking to deal anyone there from one through five. I just feel like Schwarber is the one that can be flipped into something valuable to contend right now. speaker-0: Okay. I was wait I was waiting on Mike, but he is speaker-2: He he is speaker-0: gonna say you're paralyzed with shock at the idea of trading Schwarber. I'm not. I've heard Carl talk for a long time. You were very open about how you didn't want to resign him last offseason. And you wanted to distribute that money. I think that was an easier stance to I I'm not gonna say get behind, because I can get behind both of them. I think that was more realistic. That was when they had the flexibility. now, I mean obviously not to poo poo the idea, but the the big hurdle is gonna be that Schwarber has the right to block any trade. So you're gonna have to convince him. You're gonna have to convince him to take it. And I I do think that there would be suitors for him, but he would have to wanna leave and I'm I'm not sure that that's something you'd be able to overcome. speaker-1: throw one little just as a thought exercise that I've done and that has to do with dealing him to the Cincinnati Reds. for whatever reason I I visited Cincinnati earlier this spring and whatever that did to my algorithm I I I I get glimpses of Cincinnati Reds fan pages and no knew a lot more about that franchise than I expected to this this year. I know that their owner is under some real pressure to to spend more than he has. he infamously had a line at one point saying why aren't we the brewers? And you know, there were a a couple quick reactions was you haven't managed the franchise in any way. You haven't gone after any free agents. Not that the Brewers did either, but if you're gonna try to bridge that gap, you better you know, use your wallet first. Schwarber is from that area. That's his hometown team. they went after him legitimately in the off season last year. people kind of laughed at it, but you know, they they put their hats in the ring more than most other teams did. And they have a couple pieces that are really intriguing to me, you know, as trade pieces. Sal Stewart, you know, that that's a guy he he is I think he did he win rookie of the year. He he's one of you know very, very young speaker-0: I don't think they've announced He's speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: one of the finalists, yeah. speaker-1: so he you know, he could potentially be an option at third base, you know, if we just ran with this. that allows you then to figure out what you're doing with Bryson Stott, see what his value might be. Aiden Miller to me is actually that he's a natural shortstop by by most accounts. There's your answer if you got a slide turner out. you know, a lot of things that that's the kind of shock waves that can go through the roster if you trade Kyle Schwartz. And you get more than just Sal Stewart. I'd hope you get at least a a functional backup catcher and maybe a bullpen piece that's made really ready. But that's the kind of things that I expect to see if if we're you know, we went through with that kind of plan. And no, I don't think we'd be not contending next year. In fact, I think we might have a better chance to. speaker-2: In a lineup devoid of power, you're getting rid of the one power bat we have. that's that's what gives me pause in that that plan. I see the merits of, capitalizing on a on a market that there there really isn't a lefty bat outside of Sato that's that's available in free agency and Sure, Shorber has value. I I just don't think that's the route they'll go, nor do I think they'll even explore it. speaker-0: No, but that doesn't mean, for this exercise we're talking about what would you do? And this is the place to to say the craziest shit you can think of. While realizing that it's not maybe not feasible. The the thing that, you know, gives me pause is it was last off season, the Reds were prepared to offer Schwarber more than the Phillies offered him. And he went to the Reds and said, Don't bother. I'm getting what I want from Philadelphia. I don't want you guys to keep going through this. I So if he last year had the chance to get even more money from Cincinnati and go there, he had that freedom and he chose not to, unless the Phillies came to and they were like, Hey, we're blowing the whole thing up, we're rebuilding from the ground up, you're gonna be losing a lot. But I don't think that's their plan and I don't think that Schwarber would go for it. But that's the point of this thing. I I I'll give you mine. I'll just throw this out there because I I have a big one at the top too. And I limited myself too, you can't trade Harper, Turner, Schwarber, Wheeler, any of the guys that have no trades are ten and five. And I asked myself who outside of those four guys really carries like some value on this team that you could get something back for in a trade, and I know everybody is going to hate this, but the reality is if you want to shake this thing up, chances are you're going to have to give value to get value. And my version of that is trading Jesus Lazardo. I don't like it. I don't want to do it. But two years in a row we've gone into the playoffs with a lineup that that can't do anything, a bullpen that's leaking oil last year, and great starting pitching, and that was not enough to get us out of the divisional round either year. So I look at it and I say, listen, you have Lazardo signed to a great contract. There is going to be extreme value there. if you believe that Aaron Nola is going to look more like the Aaron Nola of the last two months, and you have faith in him going forward, and you believe that Andrew Payner figured something out, which I believe, if you go into next season with a rotation of Sanchez, Wheeler, Painter, Nola, and a mid-range, one-year, fifth starter, until Gage Wood is ready, I think that it's still a plus rotation. And I think you could plug so many holes. I didn't want to spend too much time on on this because it I I would drive myself crazy. But the first thing I tried to figure was like who is a team that would be really in the Jesus Lazardo market? And I look at a team like the San Diego Padres. The San Diego Padres were one of the hottest teams in baseball. They had a real shot to win, except they got to the playoffs and they had Michael King, who is a free agent by the way, and then they had nothing in the starting rotation. They had to, go to Walker Bueller in game three. Randy Vasquez is is decent, but they have a glaring need at starting pitcher and they have a glaring overabundance of talent at relief pitcher. They also have a guy like Luis Capuisano, who at Posted almost a two-war as a part-time catcher this year, who they are not going to need. He wasn't their primary starter in the playoffs. And they have Ethan Salas, who's their number one prospect, who they expect to be the full-time catcher in the next year. So I look at that and I'm like, how about a guy like Bradley Rodriguez, the relief pitcher, has six years of team control left? He was a complete stud this year. How about a guy like Samad Taylor, a left fielder slash second baseman with a ton of speed, bat to ball, versatility? Campusano. I'm I'm just like I look at that team as an example of a team where it's like we could plug three or four holes. Now, obviously, I'm gonna answer your counter argument before you even make it. Do I want to see Jesus Lazardo on the mound when we're facing the Padres and the NLCS next year? No, I do not. But I really think you gotta give to get, and I think that we don't have a lot of options in that regard. So if I was truly gonna go crazy, that's where I would start. speaker-2: And I don't doubt that he would get a haul back. the the reason why I don't think they would explore a Lazardo trade is because you don't know what Wheeler's gonna look like after twenty seven. And you don't wanna be caught flat footed in twenty eight with just Sanchez at the top of the rotation. I I I am more understanding of the Lazardo side of the trade because he is a young enough pitcher that could Bring back significant value. Again, do I think they'll do it? No. speaker-0: So what would be your big move, Mike? If it g give us a crazy one. Carl and I both went out on a limb and and said we would trade a a beloved piece of the franchise. Who who who are you dealing? speaker-2: So the the the one for me is trading Joan Duran. And coming off of a a an all star season, a a track record that's been you know, a pretty good one, with the twins and with the Phillies, he's gonna c he's probably going to earn himself a contract that either approaches or exceeds a hundred million dollars next off season. And I'm not willing to pay that much for a closer. whether that's a five year, six year commitment, I I am not comfortable with doing that, and I don't want to lose him for nothing. and I I think that he is a type of an arm that could bring back whether it's one or two significant prospects, they could potentially fill either a hole in the lineup or a a couple pieces in the bullpen in twenty seven or beyond. I I think that is the more realistic type of trade that they would consider because of the team control associated with Duran compared to guys that are under long term contracts. And the fact that there are so many potential bullpen arms available in free agency, they have a much easier ability to fill those gaps created by such a trade. speaker-1: I I'll just say I I I love it, Mike. That that was he was the second name on my list of big splash guys that I'd I'd put on the block. And a couple of reasons that you stated and a a few more that I would add. One, yeah, you don't wanna you don't wanna let a guy of that kind of value go for nothing after next year. What if you can, you know, re roll into something that's you know, g get you a couple of pieces for a couple of years, that's that's the time to trade the guy. The other thing to me is my idea of closers just from a front office standpoint, that's the last piece that you add to a contender that is in good shape everywhere else. And I do think we are a contender-ish team. We have multiple facets of the roster that have to be addressed immediately. So closer. falls by the wayside. If you can get value out of that to plug something else or two, that's when you do it. And if we turn out to be pretty damn good the first half of the season, showing that, you know, the other moves we made are going to make us a true contender come September, October, that's when you make that big trade deadline deal like we did to get Joan Durant. So I think that's exactly the right mindset. for this organization in the position that they're in in this era. speaker-0: I think you both make a lot of great points, and I agree with Mike's overall stance. I do think there is something very funny that I have to call out. I'd be crazy to not call it out. There's something hilarious about Mike being like, so in a lineup devoid of power, you want to get rid of Kyle Schwarber. And then his solution was to take the only competent member of our bullpen and get rid of him. I thought that was very funny. That's a great bit. speaker-2: Find find me pieces in a bullpen much easier than find me pieces in a lineup. I I just think they're easier holes to fill. and and that's why I'd be more willing to take from that area of where we have a good piece and as opposed to a a lineup that is just in need of a a lot of formidable pieces. speaker-0: Fair enough. Okay, so that being said, we've we've kicked around some of the names earlier for different free agents that the Phillies could attack on the offensive side of the baseball. Let's do this real quick. What is your opening day in field next season if you had it your way? speaker-1: All right, give me give me Harper at first. Luis Arise at second base. speaker-0: You love that guy. speaker-1: I do, I do. you know, it this is more of a what will they do than what what I want them to do. I I'm gonna give I'm gonna put Bryson Stott at third base and at shortstop I I mean it's already been telegraphed that they're gonna go with Turner up front, but I would love to see that experiment die quickly, him in the outfield, Aiden Miller at shortstop. Why the hell not? Or you can flip him and stop. but yeah, let let's let's do this thing with speaker-0: So Carl Carl says run it back. Mike, what do you think? speaker-2: So i in in my wild post off season ideas, I I think they're going to revisit the Zach Neto market. And I think that if they trade for somebody like him, whether it's placing him at second base and Stott at third and keeping sh Turner at shortstop, maybe Turner falters, goes to left field and you're able to call up an Aiden Miller. but that flexibility with having a netto Miller and Stott l infield in the second, short and third base spots, I think is where I would love to start the year. I'm okay giving Aiden Miller the third base job, saying it's yours to lose in in in spring training, but we'll see. speaker-0: Yeah, to me when it when I look at Luisa Rise, the question for me comes down to are there too many left-handed bats in the lineup and especially because I want to add Sato, I I think that there would be to just have those four big left handed bats in the lineup. So I'm moving Stott back to second. Harper's gonna be on first, Turner's gonna be on short, I got Sato at third, and Real Muto at at catcher. I do think that that allows you a little bit of flexibility, with Sato having the ability to move to the outfield in one of the corners. Of course, the idea is that Trey Turner is probably also gonna have to occupy one of the corners, so there's gonna be a log jam at some point. I understand that. But there will be opportunities for Aiden Miller to move up, whether Turner succeeds or fails. Because there is the possibility, by the way. Dombrowski is like, yeah, if he plays like he did in 25, he could be our shortstop. He could do that. I know we're all penciling in, yeah, game three, we move Turner to the outfield, but they're committed to giving him a shot. And if he plays well, then you got to figure where is the long-term place for Aiden Miller, and you would have the ability to move Sato to the outfield. As far as the actual outfield that I would have this year. In the example I gave you of the of a potential trade for Lazardo, I I mentioned a guy like Samad Taylor. I would look into some right handed platoon bat for left field. I want to move Crawford to left field. I want to get him out of center. I want to trade Brandon Marsh. I don't think there's a ton of surplus value there, but I think he just got to cut bait on this guy at this point. and I would go with a guy like Taylor Ward and Wright. I don't love it. I would rather have a Seiya Suzuki, but the difference to me is that Taylor Ward is probably gonna command two years, maybe three, and Seiya Suzuki is potentially five or six. And I think you need to afford yourself a little bit of flexibility there, 'cause you you are gonna have some moving pieces. So I would go with those guys. I would bring Derek Hill back. and potentially, depending on the price tag, I might take a flyer on a guy like Dalton Varsho. who is gonna be looking at a provit contract and has a higher ceiling than you're gonna get out of most free agents. If the price tags right on him, I might make it a ro make a run at a guy like him. speaker-2: Pat, are you saying he's gonna get the annual one year, ten million dollar contract that Dombo gives out? speaker-0: Listen, somebody's gotta get it. It might as well be him. It wouldn't be a Dombo offseason if we didn't give somebody a one one year ten million dollar prove it deal and then they did not prove it. speaker-1: I do like Varsho. I'll throw another name out there. Joe Adele. you know, could could fit that sort of a mold. Yeah, I I I don't like getting into the outfield game unless it's gonna look like just a bunch of runners, just truly athletic, great defenders like we're seeing in this World Series. I just don't wanna I don't wanna even think about what Dombo might try to put lipstick on and and and sell us on this off season. speaker-0: Well we're bringing in some lumbering sluggers, my friend. This is this is your future. You might as well just accept it. But Joe Joe Adele, by the way, what a pickup for Cleveland, man. The the at bats that guy was having in the playoffs. To take a guy off a hundred loss team where he wasn't that good, and then you plug him in as your three or four hole hitter for October, and he came through the way he did, he earned himself a lot more money. That price tag on Joe Adell went up this October. But I I I love what he brings to the table. speaker-2: So th these are the names that we've heard for a couple off seasons, whether it's trade candidates with Taylor Ward and Joe Adele, linked to Phillies rumors for a couple years. but it's also why I think Sato would be if they signed if the Phillies signed him, he would go straight to right field. I I just see him filling one of those big holes that are hard to find in free agency right now. There isn't a ton of great outfielders in terms of names that are available and and the the two big ones are Rosarena and and Suzuki, but even those are like kinda mid tier good players that will earn a big contract. and and they have more in field prospects like the Aiden Millers and we didn't we didn't mention him this week, but we mentioned him in in last week's pod. we there's the the Brian Rincone aspect of is he even a factor in the infield in twenty twenty seven? I don't know if he would be on opening day, as the question was originally asked, but I think he could factor in as a utility bat mid year. speaker-0: Well to put a pin in that part of the conversation, and then we'll wrap up in a minute here, we're over an hour. I I just I just want to say if they get Sato and they put him in right field, I understand that decision. If it leads to Alec Bohm coming back to the Phillies, I will walk in front of a moving bus. I cannot do. I've never felt crazier than all of a sudden the fans doing a complete 180 on Alec Bohm because he had a good September and a couple of good at bats in October. I I am mind blown that every time somebody posts something about like, what do you think about Alec Boehm? Should he be back? The consensus seems to be where else are we gonna get 90 RBIs? I don't know. How about anywhere? You take any decent player. I'm serious and plug him in behind Harper and Schwarber. They're gonna drive in 90 run. What are we talking about here? This guy posted four point something war across seven seasons. And I'm watching people being like, well, he's irreplaceable. And in the same breath, being like, they need to make major changes, but they gotta bring Bohm back. You guys need to figure out what you're upset about. I'm at least focused. I know what I'm upset about, and it's Alec Bohm who For the first six years and five months of his Phillies tenure. You gotta replace him. I don't care where you put Sado. I can't see Alec Bone on this team again next year. That's all. speaker-2: I feel like he's gonna be a Pittsburgh pirate. speaker-1: We'll thrive there. speaker-0: Ooh. Yeah. Who's kinda got pirate hair. Kinda fits in there. They could market that. Sell Alec Bohm eye patches or something. Alright, are there any names that we miss? Anybody else that you want to get off off your chest before we wrap this thing up? No. All right. Well then this is it. I think after all of this, this was very therapeutic. I think we landed on a place where we're in deep trouble. I think that's where we're headed. it's exactly where we started an hour ago. And yeah, it's it's it's gonna happen whether we like it or not. But I appreciate you guys you know, making the effort to try to come up with something a little bit outside the box. We'll see what the Phillies do. we'll keep making podcasts during the offseason. I'm gonna be jumping Back to probably every other week, unless something major happens. and of course, you know, with the CBA, this could be a slow off season. within a month or two we could be doing a bracket of sixty-four ballpark snacks episode. I'm very sorry, but get ready for that hot dogs versus cracker jacks five twelve matchup. Until then, I'm Pat Barker, that's Carl Bakudi, that's Mike Sambuco, we are the specific Johns. Thanks as always. Like and subscribe, all that stuff. We'll see you next time. Go fills. speaker-1: fills.