Latest / The Elevator Careers Podcast / How Elevators Built the Modern World | Lee Gray

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How Elevators Built the Modern World | Lee Gray · The Elevator Careers Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: As far as full-time academic doing this kind of thing globally, I'm the only one.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: And my other friends who are architectural historians are really glad I'm doing this because they don't have to.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea why I like elevators this much.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I've got a clue why they fascinate me the way they do from a historical perspective, except perhaps they are the only piece of building-related technology that I know of that has such a profound cultural footprint.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Innovators are everywhere.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to the Elevator Careers PubCon, sponsored by the Ulred Group.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: I am your host, Matt Mulred.
• 0:38
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• 0:40
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• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Give us a comment at 404-890-0445.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: Today's guest is Lee Graham, an architectural historian whose career took an unexpected turn when a Greenwich and School research paper sparked a lifelong fascination with elevators.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: More than 40 years later, he has become one of the world's leading authorities in the history of vertical transportation.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: His research has been featured by National Geographic, CVS Sunday Morning, The History Channel, and Elevator World magazine.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Today he joined us to explore how elevators transform cities, real estate, and everyday transportation.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: Lee, welcome to the show.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's good to have you today.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm uh grateful that you're here and I'm excited to talk a little bit about your expertise and uh I guess historical vertical transportation is what you called it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, history of vertical transportation.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I was delighted to get your invitation, and I'm looking forward to this.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm curious, you know, how did you end up becoming an expert on historical vertical transportation?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so it began by spring of I think it was 1982.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was graduate student at University of Virginia, pursuing a master's in architectural history.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Graduate students take seminar courses, had a seminar course in the history of building technology, and of course had to write a paper.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea what I was going to write my paper on.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um I sort of looked around and I thought for and I don't know why.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: I really don't know why.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I thought elevators.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Let me see if there's, you know, I'll do I'll do that.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Why not?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I quickly found other than some histories that Otis had published, and corporate histories are always interesting because they, you know, we know who the hero is going to be if it's a corporate history.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And understandably, it's all good.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's all I found.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: There wasn't something out there.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I wrote my paper on that.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then as a graduate student, of course, I had to do a thesis, and I thought, well, since there's nothing there, I'll do my thesis on elevators, the history of elevators.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I did that, completed that in 1983, taught for a while, then did my PhD at Cornell, and my dissertation was early skyscrapers, which had elevators, which made me happy.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then I left Cornell and got my my first, and as it turned out, I'm only a university teaching job at UNC Charlotte.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And um, as a tenure track faculty member, in order to earn tenure as a historian, you have to write a book, which is a kind of daunting prospect.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: And my approach was, well, if I'm going to have to, if I'm going to have to write a book, it's gonna, it's gonna have to be fun.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I had, I looked back, I had my thesis on elevators.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, in in moving, several moves after leaving uh University of Virginia, I'd lost all my notes and all my photocopies.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I had my thesis document, but I'd lost all my stuff.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, I had my dissertation on early skyscrapers, and I thought, well, elevators, skyscrapers.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why I made this decision, but I thought, well, elevators sounds like it's the most fun.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I hadn't stopped thinking about elevators after leaving uh Virginia.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: They would pop up in my mind once in a while.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the the answer that I usually give, because it's just the one that most closely defines, I mean, on the one hand, I have no idea why I like elevators this much.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't got a clue why they fascinate me the way they do from a historical perspective, except perhaps, as they it's they are the only piece of building-related technology that I know of that has such a profound cultural footprint.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Elevators are everywhere.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: They're in songs, they're in poems, they're in plays, they're in television programs, they're in movies, they're in children's books, they're in there in mystery novels.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Almost, not everyone, but almost everyone has an elevator story of one kind or another.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there's and then there's the technology, which is fascinating.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And as I the more I have done in my investigations, there's also the industry itself, the men and women who install elevators, the engineers who invent elevators, the companies that that market them.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: All of that added together is a incredibly sort of rich mosaic of historical information that's all interwoven and connected.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, there are just incredibly wonderful stories that go with it.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: So why does it still fascinate me after however many years, you know, 30 some years?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Not a clue.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: But it still does.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I still think about elevators a lot more than I should.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, although I've got a nice distraction now.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: My current book, Project is the history of the escalator.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I get to think about escalators more than I should, in addition to elevators.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, that's sort of and and as it turned out, um, because I've spent all this time and energy doing this, I've had wonderful opportunities.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: But it's also ended up with I'm as far as full-time academic doing this kind of thing globally, I'm the only one.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: And my other friends who are architectural historians are really glad I'm doing this because they don't have to.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Love it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and you're right, there's such a rich, you mentioned uh a footprint, right?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: But there's not only there are things written about it, as we'll get into in this conversation, elevators have made a huge impact in the people's lives in cities, in design, in in architecture.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh, yeah, we'll get in that in a in a minute.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: But uh how has this decision affected your life, your career, you know, kind of being that one unicorn in a in haystack, as it were?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it it's so it's presented a number of uh variety of uh interesting opportunities, speaking opportunities, for example.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've been to uh several elicons and have had the great pleasure of speaking there.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Two or three years ago, I was at the United uh convention in uh Atlantic City and was very graciously asked to be my OSGO can say I was a lunchtime entertainment.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was the keynote uh speaker after lunch, which was very, very enjoyable.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm always at engineering conferences.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm the only non-engineer there and the only historian, and that's an interesting thing to be.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I've had those opportunities, but also there's been an interesting pattern to my life for at least the last 20 years.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: About every three to six months, I am contacted by someone in the media or associated with a television program or doing something elevator related, and they find me and you know, uh always gracious and asking for my expertise.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I've over the course of the years, then I've been on programs on the History Channel, actually National Geographic, which I know sounds weird.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's a program that was done for Canadian television, Bombsbow's CVS Sunday morning, which was great fun several years ago.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I've had a lot of those kind of opportunities, and I'm always delighted to do those things.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: And they're fascinating too.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting from a technological point of view to learn how this stuff works.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: When you're when you're participating in a television program, you see all the stuff that you don't see as a viewer.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: When you're participating.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's sort of like a podcast here.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: You see your headphones and a very handsome looking microphone there.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: I like the design that you don't see, you know, and don't experience it's it's been great fun.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean it's uh like you said early on, right?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm gonna do this, it's gotta be fun.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds like that has that theme has carried forward throughout your career and and even the books you're writing, and you know, it's awesome that you've been able to find something you love and then just run with it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: I am incredibly fortunate.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: So um, well, let's let's start with this question, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: We talked a little bit about how you know the impact, the footprint.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm curious, if elevators had never been invented, what would our cities look like today?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, one, they would be low-rise cities, no more than five, maybe six stories tall for the average building height.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: But now we have to think about how our current cities are configured, what their footprint is with all those tall buildings.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: So take New York and spread it out over an area probably 30 times its current size, what that would be like.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the things that that would cause is not only would the city be sprawled across the landscape, but there would be an exponential increase in the infrastructure required to support the city from roads, um, mechanical systems, what you know, and that's that, I mean, that's something that we often think about is you sprawl horizontally, all of that infrastructure has to go with you, which is one reason that I believe it's now the Council on Vertical Urbanism.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: It used to be the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitats.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Council on vertical urbanism actually promotes the idea that all future cities should be vertical and concentrated on a smaller area because you don't have that sprawling infrastructure.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: You have the infrastructure going up, but that's different than it going horizontal.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it really would be in a very different kind of world.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I know very little about what I'm about to say, but if you look at the sprawling cities of some place like India, that's a very, very different kind of urban environment.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: That would be similar to what we would have here.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it would be a very strange world.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: So did did elevators create the skyscraper or or is it the other way around?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like like most sort of you know historical puzzles, you know, the answer is is unsatisfying.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Both.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and and part of it, of course, we have to remember one comes one comes from uh desire.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: You have to want to have a really tall building.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a human impulse.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's one that becomes a very initially for the first half of the skyscraper's history, a very American impulse to want to build tall commercial buildings.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's an important point.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now, uh apartment buildings come later, but tall commercial buildings as a symbol of a company's commercial power, their their place within a given industry, whether it be uh newspapers or otherwise.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: So first you have to have the desire to build tall.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the most interesting things to me about that story and its connection to elevators is the desire to build tall comes very early at the beginning.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: The first office building in New York to have a passenger elevator is completed in 1870.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And at that point in time, elevator technology is steam powered and a steam engine turned in a winding drum where the rover cable is on, and as it, you know, uh winds and unwinds, the car goes up and down.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the sort of first generation of skyscrapers in the 1870s.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: But steam-powered uh drum machines can only go so high.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's limited technology.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then beginning in the late 70s, 1880s is when this sort of interesting dynamic begins to occur in which a desire to build higher buildings becomes evident.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then the industry kind of asks, Well, we want to go taller.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: What do you got?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: This technology, you know, this the steam power doesn't work.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: So then roped hydraulic elevators are developed and they allow buildings up to 25, 30 stories tall through most the rest of the 19th century.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then again, when we get the, well, these are fine, but you know, how about going taller?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that that question coincides with the perfection of the electric motor, which leads to the traction elevator, which we still have today.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that and that allows the um the next huge wave of tall buildings leading to things like the Empire State Building.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's both desiring what to build, but then the industry saying, well, okay, here's our answer, and it's fine until the next the next big question comes along.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so can we have skyscrapers without elevators?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let me say this differently.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can we have the modern skyscraper without the elevator?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Would we have the modern elevator without the skyscraper?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there's this interesting, not quite symbiotic relationship, but close.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I can see that, right?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: That the demand shows up and is knocking on the door and saying, hey, we want, we want more.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: And there there could also be the supply where the you know the engineer in the back room is like, okay, hey, I've got this new model, this new style, and it'll go higher.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so the two have to meet, in other words, to be able to get it there.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and um there's also one of the changes there as so we think a steam-powered elevator, that means I have a steam engine running in the basement of my building all the time to have that power available.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Steam engines aren't very safe.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Bad things can happen.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh interestingly, none ever did.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: No, steam engine never exploded in a building connected with an elevator.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Never happened.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: But they're also expensive, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got to have coal fire, you know, and more load on the boiler, all that good stuff.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Hydraulic elevators don't have all those problems.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that was one of the reasons they were invented.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: But as soon as they came along, roped hydraulic, it was immediately recognized, oh, these go much taller.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's fascinating.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: So you know, you've said that before elevators, the top floor was actually the least valuable rental space in the building.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just curious, you know, how when did did elevators kind of flip the economics of that real estate?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as I said, the first office building with an elevator is 1870.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: It takes about a decade before that change to really take place, in part because it's not as if suddenly all buildings had elevators.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Only the newest buildings had elevators, and gradually some older buildings were retrofitted with elevators.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: That was actually one of the uh intriguing things that happened when the electric elevators were first invented because the small electric motor, it made placing elevators in existing buildings easier than upfitting them with hydraulics.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it took about 10 years.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there was immediate recognition that this is beneficial.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the primary ways it was beneficial was so if I'm in 19th century New York, my primary means of hauling goods around New York City before things are electrified is horses.
• 15:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: New York had thousands and thousands and thousands of horses doing what horses do in the city streets all the time.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: The streets were incredibly unpleasant, smelly, and then you had, you know, all the people and everything down there.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so getting above that was pretty enticing.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: And also getting above the noise.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now, there were a lot of activities that remained on the street, banks, businesses that rely on foot traffic, they all remained on the lower floors of a building.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And New York's really interesting because in many of the buildings, you can still see ev evidence of this.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: If you stood on the New York sidewalk, you went half a flight down to space space or half a flight up.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then you had another floor.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Those three levels were very, very sought after for many commercial purposes and gotten really high rents.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the elevator then took the rest of the building and flipped it because if I could get above the noise and the smell and cleaner air and all of that kind of thing.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: But it it it took a good ten years for that change to occur because you know, until you had a sufficient number of buildings with elevators to make it clear that that that uh real estate economic dynamic really worked.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it did.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, sure.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and it sounds like it it happened building by building, right?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you don't have an elevator, you're still not renting the top floor for for high dollars because nobody wants to hike all the stairs.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it sounds like that's a lot of a lot of stairs to be hiking when you're, you know, maybe you work on the top floor or they were probably very fit.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that that issue of climbing stairs in the 1870s actually became an interesting point of contention in buildings that had some of the first elevators because at the end of the business day, they would close the elevator to the elevator operator would go home.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so imagine that you realize, oh my gosh, I forgot something, or I need to go back to my office building.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I go back, and it's 7:30, and yes, I can get into my building and I'm on the sixth floor, but the elevator's not working, so the operator's not there.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: People complained bitterly about this.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And finally, the response was night elevator service, where some poor person would be hired.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And typically they had other jobs in the building, but they would be there at night just in case someone came back and needed to use the elevator to get up to their office because, you know, we're not gonna climb six flights of stairs.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Not anymore, right?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Not now that we have an elevator.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: We would have 10 years ago, but no.
• 17:37
  unknown: Right.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: That is fascinating.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: So how how important was Elisha Otis's safety device?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that is another really good question.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Elijah Otis uh demonstrates a safety device in 1854 at the New York Crystal Palace.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it gets one mention in a New York newspaper, in New York Tribune, and one mention in um Scientific American, which had a little illustration of his safety device.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um the illustration of Scientific American was probably driven by the fact that Otis was working with the Scientific American Patent Agency to try to get his um elevator patented, uh which didn't happen uh in 1854.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't, in fact, happen till till 1861.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that would seem to to indicate, well, you know, not much happened.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Further investigation though reveals that his invention received sm these are small notices, but they're there, and I think they may be important in a sense.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: It was noticed by an English engineering journal, and it was noticed by a German engineering journal.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: They sort of picked up their heads and thought, well, this is sort of interesting what this American has done.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's sort of there.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's no question that it forms the basis for Otis's initial elevator company that is in business through most of the 1850s.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um and he sells a decent number of freight elevators, no passenger freight elevators during that time, and his safety worked.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was very simple as design, but it was very effective.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: It worked.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at the patent record, you realize that, and in part because Otis didn't finally get in the round to patent it until 1861, but even after that point, it inspired countless imitators, people who thought, okay, well, I can I'll devise something similar.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it continued an active life in the in Otis elevators after Otis's death in 1861 and his son's continuous business.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was active, actively used in elevators throughout the 1870s and the early 1880s because it was a very effective device.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't this moment that suddenly the entire world changed in 1854.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: But it laid the groundwork for what was to follow because it in many ways, you know, proved that, yeah, elevators can be safe.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because prior to that, and again, we're only talking about freight, freight elevators here, passenger elevators didn't exist at that time.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: They were dangerous.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it was solved that problem and inspired a host of others.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Fasting.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was gonna ask you, yeah, what was that alike for you know the the danger zone between the time that it first started happening, between you know when we actually came up with his device.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: So um the first um mechanized freight hoist appeared in an English textile mill in the early 1800s, about 1807, something like that.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now, it was part of the mill's operation, um, hauling uh bales of cloth or thread or whatever about connecting between connecting floors.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then gradually it spread to a variety of industrial settings from factories to warehouses to all kinds of industrial things.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, it is interesting that you actually don't, it's not like there was an accident every day and someone was killed every day.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: There there were accidents mostly related to um hoisting rope broking, most of them breaking rather, most of them employed hemp ropes, sometimes they use chains.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Steel uh ropes don't uh come into play until late 1870s or 1870s.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so, I mean, there were enough accidents that it was that it was a known issue.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, they and and there were other attempts to sort to solve the problem, but Otis was because it was so simple and it worked, um, you know, he was the first to get there.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, that's fascinating.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I would have some real concerns about hemp ropes myself, right?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: If I lived in those days.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's yeah, um but I mean, but I mean they did not have scientific ways of sort of determining rope strength, but they had a good idea from other uses of rope, whether it would be sailing ships or other things that a rope of a certain size was capable of.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And now I'm speculating a little bit because I've not done a Deep dive into all those early accidents.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Often a rope breaking would have to do with either the rope had been used for way longer than it should have been used or just making this up an elevator that should carry, easily carry a ton and a half is suddenly loaded with three tons of material.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Then we can't be surprised that the rope can't.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we uh on occasion, we people aren't very smart.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and they maybe they didn't have good ways of even measuring, you know, how heavy is that.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and that's also true.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's also true.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Although in most industrial settings, you have a sense of how much something weighed in terms of freight and then barrels and things like that.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: But but you're right.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, depending on who's working and who's loading, if there's room on the elevator, you know, we load more.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um we still do that today in in some settings, if I think of dormitories on college campuses where young men, as and as always the young men, will pile many, many more people in an elevator than they probably should.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: I agreed.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um in addition to protecting against rope failure, how pivotal was the introduction of safety systems in creating vertical transportation as an industry?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell So the development of safety systems, I mean, uh beyond Otis.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Otis is the obvious one.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if if the hoisting rope or chain or cable breaks, you know, the car or platform is going to fall down the shaft, bad things are going to happen.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the obvious problem to solve.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Once we have passenger elevators, and and the reason I say that in in that context, free elevators were an open platform elevator.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: They had no car.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: It was a platform and then the framework that the hoisting rope was attached to.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um so the only additional safety thing that went with platform elevators is they, and it was gradual, surprisingly gradual, they realized that, well, rather than just having a hole in the floor that the elevator passed through, we ought to put something around the hole in the floor so nobody falls through it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it took a while to figure that out, but they did.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good idea.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: But once we get to passenger elevators, I would say all the safety systems that follow have to do with us learning how the technology actually works as new things are added in.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: A good example are doors.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they realized that with a passenger elevator, having a door to the elevator shaft and a hallway was probably a good thing so that nobody accidentally fell down the shaft.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Logical thought.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: The next thing was recognizing that the door should have a lock on it.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because there were accidents that happened when people opening the door, sticking their head in the shaft, going, I wonder where the elevator is.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'd stepping through.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea of an interlock system came up because we realized that, well, we need a door.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: There should probably also be a door on the car.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: And these are great operational solutions, but now there's a safety issue.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Otis's safety was predicated on the rope breaking, and then the uh safety would activate.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there were instances where a car oversped going down, but the rope didn't break, and the car crashed.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay, so now I need an overspeed break so that if the car goes too fast, something will kick in, slow it down, and prevent it.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: After a lot longer than you would think, there was a recognition that, well, cars can actually also overspeed going up.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: All right, need that safety device.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Another simple example is when we went from operator controlled doors, where an operator would stand there and open and close the door to automatically opening and closing doors.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the first time somebody got their arm caught in a door, there was a recognition that, okay, now we need to think about elevator doors and the amount of force that they use when they close.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: And also if they interact with something like a person's arm, that they don't close it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of the safeties then are direct responses to operational characteristics of elevators, some of it having to do with human behavior, and others having to do with just, you know, as we gained an operational understanding of what can go wrong and what we can try to prevent.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, it makes sense.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, hey, we need a door.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, now we need to make sure it doesn't shut too hard or that it responds when somebody, you know, is coming late and diving through.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, there's been a lot of iterations of that, just even in my lifetime.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: Hey there, listeners, it's Matt, and I would love to know what you want to hear more of on the podcast.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: If you have a topic in mind or a guest you'd like to hear from, head over to elevatorcareers.net and drop a suggestion in the box, or you can email podcast at elevatorcareers.net.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: The link will also be in the description below.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for being part of this conversation.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Now, back to the show.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: Any other safety devices that you've researched that have kind of come about in that way?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Those are most of them.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: One that we don't think about today is um so this is an interesting one.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: It sort of isn't, isn't a safety device.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: We did not have automatic leveling of elevators until the mid-1920s.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Prior to that, it was dependent on the skill of the elevator operator to stop a car level-ish with the landing.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Basic rule of thumb was if I was within half an inch of level, I'm golden.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because the reason I would I wouldn't try to get perfectly level is inching the car up took a lot of extra time.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't have that extra time.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: And people don't want to wait on that.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: So there was a development as a response to that of elevator threshold lights.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: So there would be a little panel in the hallway um with a with light bulbs in it, and and it would light up when the car showed up.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: So highlighting that threshold and that possible tripping hazard getting in and out.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now that didn't last very long because then we got automatically leveling cars.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, you know, it was both for convenience, but it also had a uh a safety factor to it.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: For sure, for sure.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what comes to mind is uh, you know, if you ride the trains in in the UK and London, mind the gap, right?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: So there might be a gap when you go to step on there.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: So and that that gap today, if I understand this correctly, with with elevators, is not so much safety, but it has to do with elevators that are used in some industrial settings where you have all these little robots running around so that they can easily get in and out of the elevator.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: The gaps to bin wheels catch and bad thing, you know.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's now become a different kind of thing.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: But yes, that's a that's a really good analogy to sort of mind the gap.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm seeing more and more little robots running around, whether they're serving food or or taking room service, or you know, it's becoming more and more.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, did the elevator revolution kind of happen globally at the same time?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Did the US lead the way?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: What did that look like as obviously this device comes out?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned England and Germany and some people kind of catching on to that.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: What was kind of the rollout there?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: So with the passenger elevator, I mean, freight elevators are typically in, I mean, England's first, because England's really the first country to industrialize in a significant way.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that everybody else follows in the rise of the modern factory kind of thing.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Passenger elevators all seem to begin at about the same point in time, right around 1860, in the United States and in England, and France isn't too far behind.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: They all begin in the same building type, um, the large urban hotels.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because in the mid middle of the 19th century, the large urban hotel, it was, well, it was this sort of, if you went to one of those, you know, it was like going to this sort of modern place where you have everything in, you know, taken care of, because you would go to this hotel and they would have running water in your room.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: You may have a bathroom in your room, you'd have steam heat.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was this, it was all of these things you didn't have at home.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say you may not have had any of that at home, and yet you show up at this luxury you know hotel, and it's like a resort, and all these fancy things are going on.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And the elevator was another amenity.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was this wonderful magical room that carried you upstairs so you didn't gasp, you didn't have to walk up the stairs, you know.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it's sort of a level-ish playing field at the beginning.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: So large urban hotels, United States, England, France is pretty close behind.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: The difference is in the United States, um, the elevators are driven by steam power.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: In England and France, they are hydraulic elevators.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, England is uh what we think of as a direct piston elevator.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: So their hydraulic technology in Europe, steam power in the United States, in part because, and this is something that um I don't know the entire detailed history of.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of European cities and urban areas would not have allowed a working steam engine in the basement of a hotel because of the dangers.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you already had a massive steam boiler, which is dangerous enough.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need a steam engine added to it.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we we begin at the sort of same same point where that history diverges is as we go through the 1860s and the 1870s, Europe stays focused on hydraulic power and hydraulic powered elevators.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: The United States stays with steam power, and then when when the shift to hydraulic elevators occurs, the roped hydraulic elevators there were some rope systems in England, but roped hydraulic elevators that were really predicated on taller building application.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: And once we decide that uh the United States is going to build tall buildings, that the history really diverges because our focus is different.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm living in in London or Paris, I don't need a high-speed elevator to go 200 feet in the air.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have many buildings that there.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and since I live in mostly a low-rise city, there are many buildings that don't need elevators, not in the way that they did in the United States.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's mostly the different urban nature in the United States that demands the use of different elevators.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: So our industry focuses on different things than they would focus in on Europe.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't mean innovation didn't occur in Europe.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: It it did.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Some of it was quite interesting, the development of what we now refer to as the patternoster elevator, where you had multiple cars linked together in kind of a chain, and you'd have two parallel shafts, and they would go up and then go back down continuously.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess how to jump on board and go up and jump off because there's no weight.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: And there are still and there are still some um active uh of those.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it was not like there wasn't innovation in Europe, but but the innovation in the United States, it was different because the needs were different.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually, because of that and the need for us to develop high-speed electric traction elevators, I mean, I guess you could characterize that as we took the lead in that, but we needed to.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: They just didn't.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: It was a it was a very different commercial environment and urban environment.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you mentioned in one of our conversations that uh certainly Europe kept the shorter buildings, if you will, and and I hope I'm getting the timeline right here, but there was something about you know immigrants coming to the US and seeing these massive buildings.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know if it's because of I know in some cities, even to this day, right, you can't build higher than the local church because that is the tallest building in town and we want to keep it that way.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I wonder if Europe had some of those cultural understandings that, hey, we're just not going to build them taller than the than the cathedral.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really good question.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: I so I don't know if, for instance, London and Paris, the precise origins of their building height regulations, um, it may have had something to do with not competing with um like St.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: Paul's Cathedral in London or Notre Dame in Paris.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it also was about retaining a certain kind of urban environment.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: And as you go through the 19th century, and I know more about English perceptions of America than French perceptions.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the English were just sort of kind of bemused and puzzled about what are these Americans doing building all these crazy tall buildings?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Why are they doing that?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: And members of the English elevator industry would visit the United States, like, you know, what are the why do they need to go so fast?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Americans would visit England.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, why do these elevators go so slow?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because they didn't need to go fast.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: And also, one of the things, and this is still a thing in, you know, for many Americans who visit Europe and you're staying in an older building, your first thought is, why is this elevator car so small?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I'm gonna have to send my luggage up first and then and then walk up because they didn't need big elevators because you know that wasn't that wasn't what they were about.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't about the speed with which Americans actually demanded of everything.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't just elevators.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Immigrants to the United States in the 19th century, um, there's evidence of them writing back to Family in Europe talking about what they referred to as the railroad pace of American life.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: They couldn't believe how quickly everything had to be done, how quickly everything happened.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was such a change from Europe.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, perhaps now globally, it's no longer an American thing.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's impatient, especially waiting for an elevator.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good point.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: And and yeah, the American culture hasn't let go of that race, race, race, get everything done.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it is fascinating to hear that even 100 years ago, somebody's coming across the boat and oh my gosh, this is this is too fast.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: That is that is fascinating for sure.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, with the US kind of leading the way, are they still are are we still leading?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: Did that change?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: When did that change?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um So a a key factor in in that is the elevator company.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: They become, by the, I'd say the first quarter of the 20th century, they are well established as the first international elevator company.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: They have subsidiaries literally everywhere in Europe, in Australia, in Asia, um, in South America.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: They either have direct subsidiaries where they have um linked with a local company, or they have um companies, representatives there who can who can sell their product, sort of proliferate that technology.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that isn't to say that there weren't other companies, mostly English, I think, that had international influence.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: In England, you got the in the sort of massive English uh colonial system.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you had some firms in England who were selling their products to um English colonies in India is a good example and elsewhere.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: But but Otis really sort of, you know, they're the first, you know, multinational company, if you will, and were and still are leaders in their own way.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: The shift that takes place in the really the second half of the 20th century is is when you have uh the rise of major European and Asian companies that suddenly become also uh multinational companies.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: And now this is maybe not the best way to sort of say this is you know, if OTA sort of colonizes you know the world in the first half of the 20th century, the rest of the world colonizes the United States in the second half of the 20th century today, because we've got you know German companies, Finnish companies, um you know, Japanese companies now, you know, present and and very dynamic in the American vertical transportation market.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: And what that means is now it really, really is a global enterprise in which it's difficult beyond maybe a few specific inventions, perhaps, to say that you know that one country or even one company is is clearly way out in front of everybody else.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because, like, well, as we say, like most industries, but in some ways the elevator industry, I won't say it's unique, it's not very big, right?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a small industry in one sense, and everybody knows what everybody else is doing.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, historically, that's almost always been true because many American companies, Otis and others, when they patented something in the United States, they would also patent it in Europe.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Several European companies would do or mentors would do the same thing in the United States.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was very easy in the 19th century to have access to international patent records.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Also, lot the 19th century was filled with engineering publications.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it was very easy.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and if you go in, I mean today, if you go to a a large, an old engineering college in the United States, you will find buried back in an archive, probably engineering journals from Germany, France, England, all of those there.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it was very easy to keep up with what was going on globally.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: It I mean, it it took a slightly longer than it does today, you know, for the journals to travel across the Atlantic or back and forth.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: But if I wanted to, um I knew what was going on.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And in Europe, it was actually very easy because of course the countries are so much closer together.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: So people knew what was going on and and knew where the innovation was and what was happening.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: Very cool.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: What what would you say these early pioneers got surprisingly right?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, what would they maybe be shocked that we're still dealing with today?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: What they did really well and got right from the very beginning was a clear understanding that for the passenger elevator to be a viable thing, it has to be safe.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it literally pervade, and it still does pervade the entire industry.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And Otis led the way in this, but everybody else picked it up because everybody sold a quote safety elevator.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: They made sure the word safety was somewhere in there, and they tried to make the safest possible product.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: And even in the 19th century, which is known for some pretty horrific accidents, there weren't that many elevator accidents, not proportional to the number of elevators and the number of elevator trips that would have occurred.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: So the industry immediately understood this has to be safe to sell our products, but they also were committed to the idea of safety because, well, it's the right thing to do.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want people to have a problem.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that's been an industry focus from the very beginning.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: And this may be an odd take on your question about so what would they be surprised at we're still dealing with today, is that so many people think they're unsafe.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, why?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we deal with something that they did not, and that is modern media and modern technology.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't take too long to find a television program or a streaming program or a movie or something that presents the elevator as the oh my god, I'm going to die thing.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: And kind of play on that primal fear, right?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and that is also related to, and this didn't seem to be as much an issue in the 19th century, I don't think, is for the average person, and I know you're well aware of this, and the colleagues in the industry are as well.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: The elevator is inherently mysterious because it's a box, and I don't know how it works.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, it's hidden.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: All right, I mean all the mechanisms can't be seen.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the my only understanding of how it could work is what I've seen from you know movies in which they focus on something going really, really wrong.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think they would probably be surprised as well.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: Now, now, obviously, not everyone who gets on an elevator is is terrified of it, but they might be surprised that, well, haven't people gotten over that by now and just sort of use them?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we do.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: Most of us use them, except, you know, perhaps slightly strange people like myself, or my first question is, whose elevator is this?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sort of looking around trying to figure out whose machine I'm riding in and how old it is and um all that kind of thing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: Understood.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: So what lessons from early elevator adoption should building owners, GCs, developers still be thinking about today?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: I would say probably the the sort of overall experience of the elevator.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then the reason I say that is, and I'll use a contemporary example, um, and and and there's always an adjustment to technology, but um you know, the in the creation of modern uh elevator systems where I walk up and there's no up or down button, and I key in a floor on a on a touchpad, and then I stand in front of an elevator, and then the doors open, and then I step in, and I'm not required to do anything because it automatically takes me to my floor.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: That is incredibly unsettling the first time people experience that because there's this huge sense of a loss of control.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: I am not convinced the industry actually thought about that when they did, you know, that as part of the passenger experience.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and maybe they did, but many of the installations that occurred initially, and some of them were in hotels, which did not seem to be like a good idea, because you have a constantly changing clientele.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not like you have a an office building where everybody learns how they work.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I part of that is is something that we still need to work on.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: The other part, and that's actually predicated on destination dispatch and those things, is uh traffic control.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how do we guarantee that in in the building that that everybody gets where they need to in the most efficient, effective, and energy efficient manner?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we still spend a lot of time and some ridiculously complicated mathematical formulas trying to predict human behavior, which is not very predictable.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and and from what I've heard, you know, just talking to some of the consultants, as we redesign some of the uses in the building and we put the cafeteria on the second floor and to put the gym, you know, it's it's like, okay, uh what what we're expecting is no longer even the same, you know, they're gonna come, but they're gonna go down for lunch and they're gonna go down to work out, and then they're gonna go back up and and so it changes the entire pattern.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and and the need then, and that that's a really great example, then the need to completely redesign the traffic system and or have an elevator, and a number of elevators that will facilitate the fact that, yes, in the 20th century, building uses change and it with frightening speed.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not like I can just add or subtract the number of elevators really easily.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: No, there's so much uh so much to talk about.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I um I appreciate you being with me today.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I love to keep this going, and maybe we just need to do another one and we'll we'll dig into some other things.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be great.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, thanks again for being here.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: I have enjoyed it and uh look forward to to future conversations.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you very much.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Albert Group, a leader in elevator industry recruiting.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: Please visit our YouTube channel at Elevator Careers or check us out online at elevatorcareers.net.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: Please like and subscribe.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: And until next time, stay safe.