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EXCLUSIVE: 'My Jaw Was Hanging Off My Face' Ted Bundy Survivor on the Horrific Attack · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys be staring at you
0:13
Speaker 1: all night? What do you say we get out of here?
0:18
Speaker 1: What is it about this guy? When I feel his love,
0:21
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm on top of the world. Everything
0:26
Speaker 1: you don't know. I I think I must be lost.
0:30
Speaker 1: That will shock you beyond your worst nightmare. I am innocent.
0:37
Speaker 1: You don't actually believe this garbage, dude, It's in all
0:39
Speaker 1: the papers, tip monkey, how did his name get on
0:46
Speaker 1: that suspect list? I want to come see you. I
0:53
Speaker 1: was really hoping you do that. This case is about
1:00
Speaker 1: catching a monster. Ladies and gentlemen. I am that's innocent.
1:04
Speaker 1: So start you are skating on thin ice, partner, you're
1:08
Speaker 1: hearing the official trailer. That's zach Efron portraying extremely wicked,
1:14
Speaker 1: chuckingly evil and vile Ted Bundy. I mean, see, Grace,
1:21
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
1:24
Speaker 1: No telling how many millions of dollars were sunk into
1:27
Speaker 1: the portrayal of serial rapist and killer Ted Bundy, But
1:33
Speaker 1: the movie makes him out to be a glamour boy.
1:37
Speaker 1: I don't really fault zach Efron for doing it. He's
1:40
Speaker 1: just a squirrel trying to get a nut like everybody
1:42
Speaker 1: else you know, making a living. But there's something so
1:48
Speaker 1: bast awkwards with this Netflix at it again portraying a
1:55
Speaker 1: cold blooded killer as a hero. Let me let me
1:58
Speaker 1: get this straight, Jackie. Isn't that where they did Stephen
2:01
Speaker 1: Avery making a murder? Okay? Joining right now an all
2:04
Speaker 1: star panel. Cheryl McCullum, Cold Case Research Institute Director, Doctor
2:08
Speaker 1: Katherine Ramsland, Professor Forensic Psychology at to Sale University, an
2:12
Speaker 1: author of sixty books, including Inside the Minds of serial Killers,
2:18
Speaker 1: Why They Kill on Amazon, incredible body of work. Doctor
2:23
Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky, investigative historian, author of Sons of Kine, A
2:30
Speaker 1: History of serial Killers from stone Age to Present. Guys,
2:34
Speaker 1: I really don't know what to say, but I guess
2:36
Speaker 1: we should start with a very special guest joining us,
2:40
Speaker 1: a woman who survived an attack by Ted Bundy, and
2:46
Speaker 1: not very many people, not very many women can say that,
2:50
Speaker 1: Kathy Kleiner. I want you to hear something from doctor
2:53
Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky. Doctor Vronsky and I have talked in depth
2:58
Speaker 1: about Bundy. Vronsky with me, author of Sons of Kine,
3:03
Speaker 1: History of serial Killer stone Age to Present. Doctor Vronsky,
3:07
Speaker 1: you taught me something about Ted Bundy. I didn't know,
3:10
Speaker 1: and I had already read one book on Ted Bundy,
3:13
Speaker 1: but when I talked to you much less covered the
3:16
Speaker 1: case a million times, Doctor Vronsky. Ted Bundy would actually
3:22
Speaker 1: take some of his victims, bathe their dead bodies, apply
3:28
Speaker 1: hair and makeup. I'm not really sure what else I
3:32
Speaker 1: can only imagine necrophilia, Doctor Vronsky, Could you please describe
3:38
Speaker 1: that what we know about that aspect of serial killer
3:41
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. Well, you know that's one of the most
3:45
Speaker 1: extreme and monstrous ends of the serial killer phenomenon. You know,
3:51
Speaker 1: the necrophiles, the You know, Ted Bundy used to bring
3:55
Speaker 1: some of the heads home. In fact, you know, in
3:58
Speaker 1: that fireplace that you see in the new in the
4:01
Speaker 1: Netflix show, right, he burns one of the heads in
4:07
Speaker 1: in his girlfriend's apartment. Um. So you know the Netflix
4:13
Speaker 1: part of the Ted Bundy we see, um is the
4:18
Speaker 1: part that his victims never saw, or at least saw
4:21
Speaker 1: the moment he first encountered him. Um. So you know,
4:25
Speaker 1: we see the public version of of Ted Bundy, the
4:29
Speaker 1: mask that he wore were Um. It's kind of regrettable
4:34
Speaker 1: that they didn't delve deeper into what was beneath that mask. Um,
4:40
Speaker 1: excuse me. I think it's regrettable the cops didn't shoot
4:43
Speaker 1: him the first time they laid eyes on him. But
4:45
Speaker 1: that's a whole another can of worms, because if he
4:48
Speaker 1: had not escaped, not once, but twice, lives could have
4:53
Speaker 1: been saved. But he managed to escape. Believe it or not,
4:57
Speaker 1: he escaped law too times, two times. And look, I'm
5:04
Speaker 1: not making the lawman and law women out to be
5:06
Speaker 1: the bad guys. Okay, they didn't kill anybody. He did,
5:11
Speaker 1: but this guy was so wildly I just want to
5:15
Speaker 1: just pause. Kathy Kleiner, who I consider to be a friend,
5:19
Speaker 1: and I've sat beside her as she tells her story,
5:24
Speaker 1: and even talking about it right now is giving me
5:27
Speaker 1: chills up and down my arms. I want to go
5:30
Speaker 1: to Cheryl and doctor Kathine Ramslin, but I'm going to
5:33
Speaker 1: go to Kathy first, because Kathy, just think about what
5:37
Speaker 1: you survived as Vronsky. Doctor Peter Vronsky was talking actually
5:43
Speaker 1: severing his victim's heads, and I really think the only
5:47
Speaker 1: reason he burned the one victim's head in his girlfriend's
5:50
Speaker 1: place was because she was coming home and he didn't
5:52
Speaker 1: want her to find a head. I think you would
5:54
Speaker 1: have kept it around frankly, but a plot bathing while
6:00
Speaker 1: the hair of victims, dead women and then fixing their
6:04
Speaker 1: hair and up carefully applying makeup to their face. I
6:10
Speaker 1: guess having relations with them. And there was one victim,
6:15
Speaker 1: a young girl who left out in the woods and
6:18
Speaker 1: would go back to visit the body. And I don't
6:22
Speaker 1: know what he was doing with that body. Nothing good,
6:26
Speaker 1: you know, Kathy, when you look back, I know it's
6:30
Speaker 1: all like horrible, terrible, dark blur. You were attacked in
6:35
Speaker 1: your room at night, in your dorm room. I mean you're,
6:39
Speaker 1: you know, sorority house room. But to be in the
6:43
Speaker 1: room literally was so much evil. I mean Netflix got
6:48
Speaker 1: that part right, extremely wicked, shockingly evil and viol I
6:52
Speaker 1: mean you were in the room with the devil. What
6:55
Speaker 1: happened Kathy that night was, as you said, big blur
7:01
Speaker 1: of being scared and just not knowing. Of course, it
7:06
Speaker 1: was Ted Bundy in the room with me. Our sorority
7:10
Speaker 1: house had several rooms in it. We were on the
7:13
Speaker 1: second floor and our room faced the back of the
7:16
Speaker 1: sorority That also was where the parking lot was. When
7:23
Speaker 1: I heard a noise, we went to bed around ten thirty,
7:27
Speaker 1: my roommate nine, and sometime in the early morning I
7:32
Speaker 1: heard something which woke me up a bit, and that
7:36
Speaker 1: was our bedroom door opens. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait
7:39
Speaker 1: right there, okay, all three of us here in the studio,
7:43
Speaker 1: Jackie Riley and myself. When you said the bedroom door opened,
7:50
Speaker 1: how many nightmares and fears has started with you thinking
7:55
Speaker 1: your bedroom door opens? In your case, it was real it.
8:02
Speaker 1: It came back to me many times as a soft sound.
8:07
Speaker 1: It wasn't a door opening and slamming against the ball.
8:11
Speaker 1: It was a quiet opening that has bothered me over
8:15
Speaker 1: the years. When I'm sleeping if I hear a noise
8:19
Speaker 1: and my first thought is that someone's coming in the door,
8:23
Speaker 1: even if the door isn't closed. That feeling, I don't
8:27
Speaker 1: think we'll ever go away. It's something that I'll have
8:30
Speaker 1: to live with, you know. When I was and still
8:33
Speaker 1: to this day, I hate a cracked door because I
8:38
Speaker 1: can't really see somebody standing on the other side of
8:41
Speaker 1: it at night. Neither there ever has been or would be.
8:45
Speaker 1: But after all the years of prosecuting, that's stuck in
8:49
Speaker 1: my mind. Now I'm curious about and I know I'm
8:55
Speaker 1: picking out one isolated detail. But I want you to
8:58
Speaker 1: describe again that sound when you hear your bedroom door open.
9:02
Speaker 1: It was, as I said, a soft sound. It wasn't
9:06
Speaker 1: the door hitting against the wall. It was just we
9:09
Speaker 1: had carpeting and it was more of a slide of
9:13
Speaker 1: the door. You could hear. You could hear the door
9:15
Speaker 1: knob being turned and the door being slightly opened, and
9:19
Speaker 1: then completely open crime stories with Nancy Grace my experience,
9:38
Speaker 1: I'd say phonography generally, but with the phonography the deals
9:42
Speaker 1: on a violent level with the sexuality is that once
9:48
Speaker 1: you become addicted to it, and I look at this
9:50
Speaker 1: as a kind of addiction, like other kinds of addiction,
9:53
Speaker 1: of addiction, I would keep looking for more, more explicit,
9:57
Speaker 1: more grack signs of material. Like an addiction, You keep
10:01
Speaker 1: creating something which is harder, harder, something which which gives
10:06
Speaker 1: you a greater sense of excitement, until you reach the
10:11
Speaker 1: point where the penocophy would go so far. He reached
10:16
Speaker 1: that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if
10:19
Speaker 1: maybe actually doing it. We'll give you that which is
10:23
Speaker 1: beyond just reading about it or looking at it. How
10:26
Speaker 1: long did you stay at that point before you actually
10:28
Speaker 1: assaulted somewhere. Well, yeah, you see, that is a very
10:34
Speaker 1: delicate point in my own development. And we're talking about something,
10:39
Speaker 1: we're talking about having reached the point or a gray
10:42
Speaker 1: area that surrounded that point over a course of it.
10:44
Speaker 1: You don't, I will, I would say, I would say
10:48
Speaker 1: a couple of years. Is he actually trying to blame
10:52
Speaker 1: mass murder of women, serial killings, one woman after the next,
10:58
Speaker 1: after the next, after the next, on pornography that he
11:03
Speaker 1: voluntarily consumed? What in that? Hey? I mean, Cheryl McCullum.
11:09
Speaker 1: You know, every time I say, well I've heard it
11:12
Speaker 1: all I heard, I hear something else and that just
11:15
Speaker 1: makes me ill. I mean, Cheryl, you heard me describing
11:18
Speaker 1: how after Ted Bundy would rape and murder someone, he
11:22
Speaker 1: would then take their bodies some of them, bathe them,
11:26
Speaker 1: style their hair, apply makeup, and I guess have sex
11:30
Speaker 1: with them again. I mean, and he's blaming that on
11:34
Speaker 1: his voluntary use of porn. Really, it just makes me
11:38
Speaker 1: want to just slap him in the face. Nancy. I
11:41
Speaker 1: think Ted Bundy, more than almost anybody, knew how to
11:45
Speaker 1: get just stears just plummeted into us, and he knew
11:51
Speaker 1: what to say, He knew what to say to freak
11:53
Speaker 1: people out. He knew what to say to cause just
11:57
Speaker 1: this stir of emotion and people then if you were
12:00
Speaker 1: remember they freaked out over it and they wanted to
12:02
Speaker 1: shut down all these sex shots I wanted to shut downs,
12:06
Speaker 1: you know, Playboy and all these sort of things. Did
12:09
Speaker 1: he participate in pornography, Absolutely, he's a rapist. He was
12:13
Speaker 1: in the f and M. He liked watching anybody's suffer.
12:17
Speaker 1: But that isn't what made him well. No to doctor
12:20
Speaker 1: Katherine Ramslin, Professor forensic Psychology to Sells University, author of
12:26
Speaker 1: sixty books, people, it's all i can do to write
12:29
Speaker 1: my hel Hedane books. I'm half dead by the time
12:31
Speaker 1: I finish one of those, much less the one coming
12:34
Speaker 1: out nonfiction. Don't be a victim. I don't know how
12:37
Speaker 1: you do it, doctor Kathyne Ramslin. But one of her
12:41
Speaker 1: books is Inside the Mind of serial Killers, Why They
12:44
Speaker 1: Kill Now. I'm sure you're gonna tell me how wrong
12:47
Speaker 1: I am. And I'm certainly no stranger to that, but
12:51
Speaker 1: it just burns me up to here. Ted Bundy kind
12:54
Speaker 1: of blame pornography for what he did, Like at society's fault.
12:59
Speaker 1: If I or that one more time, I'm going to
13:01
Speaker 1: shoot my foot. Well, I think in the context was
13:03
Speaker 1: that he was trying to manipulate Reverend Opson because he
13:07
Speaker 1: was that was the last interview he gave before he
13:09
Speaker 1: was executed. He was trying to save his life. I
13:12
Speaker 1: believe he exaggerated the impact of the pornography on him
13:15
Speaker 1: because he was trying to get somebody to keep him alive,
13:19
Speaker 1: to study as a specimen, because he believed he was
13:22
Speaker 1: so special and so important, and this was his sort
13:25
Speaker 1: of last ditch effort. But even at that, pornography has
13:30
Speaker 1: and the True Crime the True Detective magazines in particular,
13:33
Speaker 1: which I think is what he's talking about, certainly have
13:35
Speaker 1: had an influence on some of these developing young men
13:39
Speaker 1: to Dennis Rader talked about it too. I spent five
13:42
Speaker 1: years talking about Dennis Raider tote to write his book,
13:46
Speaker 1: and he talked about it almost in the same way,
13:49
Speaker 1: not blaming it so much as just simply saying, this
13:52
Speaker 1: clearly was an influence in my addiction to violence, and
13:56
Speaker 1: I think that's there's something to that. But in Bundy's case,
14:00
Speaker 1: he was certainly exaggerating it to try to get Dobson
14:03
Speaker 1: to say we really need to study this guy. Okay,
14:06
Speaker 1: you know what now I am going to shoot my foot.
14:09
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCall him. I actually started laughing on this end,
14:13
Speaker 1: not at doctor Katherine at Ramslin, but at because she's
14:17
Speaker 1: portraying what Bundy is projecting, that he is so special
14:22
Speaker 1: we should keep him and study him. I already know
14:25
Speaker 1: enough about him. I don't want to keep him. I
14:27
Speaker 1: don't want to study him. I want him off the
14:28
Speaker 1: face of the earth because he's already gotten a way
14:30
Speaker 1: out of jail twice. That that means when you don't
14:34
Speaker 1: know a horse, you'll look at his trick record. He'll
14:35
Speaker 1: do it again and attack another woman. He couldn't stop
14:40
Speaker 1: attacking women. And he thinks he's so special. What makes
14:43
Speaker 1: him special? And why do people keep thinking he's attractive.
14:46
Speaker 1: I don't think he's attractive at all. He loves like
14:48
Speaker 1: a wolf. Every time he smiles, I can see every
14:50
Speaker 1: tooth in his mouth all the way to the bat.
14:51
Speaker 1: That's freaky. Well. I got two things to say. One,
14:55
Speaker 1: oh Lord, as far as killers went at the time,
14:58
Speaker 1: people that we knew were murderers and rapists in that group,
15:04
Speaker 1: he was attracted like when you're like King of the zombies.
15:08
Speaker 1: You're the business zombie, the best. Okay, go ahead, exactly.
15:12
Speaker 1: You and I have words enough family violence cases in
15:15
Speaker 1: other cases to know this is true. People will often say, Oh,
15:20
Speaker 1: I was drunk when I beat my wife. I'm so sorry.
15:22
Speaker 1: I was drunk. I was drunk. I was drunk. He
15:24
Speaker 1: didn't beat her because he was drunk. He got drunk
15:28
Speaker 1: so we could beat her. And Ted Bundy, Okay, you're
15:31
Speaker 1: scaring me. It's the truth. I know it's the true,
15:34
Speaker 1: but when you say it like that, guy's with me.
15:36
Speaker 1: In addition to Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case
15:39
Speaker 1: Research Institute, doctor Katherine Ramslin, and doctor Peter Vronsky, Kathy
15:45
Speaker 1: Kleiner is with me. Kathy Kleiner survived an attack by
15:49
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. I don't know the statistical odds of her
15:54
Speaker 1: being alive today, but she still suffers physically from that attack. Kathy,
16:01
Speaker 1: we left off when he first came in the door
16:04
Speaker 1: and he heard that soft opening of the door on
16:07
Speaker 1: the carpet. What happened? Then? I woke up a bit,
16:10
Speaker 1: having been sleeping pretty hard. That noise brought me a
16:15
Speaker 1: bit weight. The next thing I heard was setting up
16:21
Speaker 1: the room. We had. It was a normal sized dorm room.
16:25
Speaker 1: We had two twin beds on each side of the wall.
16:29
Speaker 1: In between our beds, we had a small trunk, and
16:33
Speaker 1: on that trunk we kept our books, a little plant,
16:37
Speaker 1: and small things that we needed to reach from our bed.
16:40
Speaker 1: Our bed then from the trunk, had about four feet
16:44
Speaker 1: on each side. Once I heard him open the door
16:48
Speaker 1: and come into the room, the room being so dark,
16:52
Speaker 1: he tripped over that trunk, which now woke me up completely.
16:57
Speaker 1: I'm laying in bed on my left side. I look
17:01
Speaker 1: up and I see the shadow of something, a man
17:05
Speaker 1: standing next to the bed. As I see it in
17:10
Speaker 1: a split second, he raises his arm up above his head,
17:15
Speaker 1: and I could see he had something in his hand,
17:19
Speaker 1: a log. As I looked at him in a split second,
17:25
Speaker 1: he threw with such force that log in his hand
17:31
Speaker 1: on my face that it terribly, terribly injured my face.
17:36
Speaker 1: Just trying to take in what you're saying. What happened
17:40
Speaker 1: then when he struck me, it was it felt like
17:44
Speaker 1: a thud. It didn't hurt, It didn't I didn't feel
17:48
Speaker 1: the sharp pain that I would feel later when I
17:52
Speaker 1: was being attacked. I made noise and it woke up
17:56
Speaker 1: my roommate, who was right next to me in her
18:00
Speaker 1: twin bed. He then walked across the room again. He
18:04
Speaker 1: tripped over that trunk and attacked Karen again. He beat
18:09
Speaker 1: her with the same log that he had attacked me with.
18:14
Speaker 1: As he went to strike her, she rose her arms
18:18
Speaker 1: up over her face to hopefully keep the blow from
18:23
Speaker 1: hurting her. After he hit her, he heard me moaning again,
18:29
Speaker 1: so he crossed the other side to my twin bed
18:33
Speaker 1: and went to attack me again. I saw him raise
18:39
Speaker 1: his arm up over his head, and just before he
18:44
Speaker 1: struck me, a light shone up into our bedroom. We
18:49
Speaker 1: were on the second floor of the house, which faced
18:53
Speaker 1: the back, which faced the parking lot. Our window was
19:00
Speaker 1: eatly exposed to that parking lot. Our bedroom shades our
19:05
Speaker 1: curtains were wide open because we hung plants on the
19:10
Speaker 1: curtain rods, so therefore we never closed them. Just before
19:16
Speaker 1: he's waiting for that to hit me, I could see
19:20
Speaker 1: only a black shadow. When he first walked into the room.
19:25
Speaker 1: He had a dark knit hat over his head. He
19:29
Speaker 1: wore dark clothes. When someone came into the parking lot
19:34
Speaker 1: that night early in the morning to drop off a
19:38
Speaker 1: throaty sister from a date. The lights of that car
19:42
Speaker 1: shone up into our bedroom and illuminated the room so bright,
19:46
Speaker 1: and I was cringing. I could see the light through
19:50
Speaker 1: my dark closed eyes. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace So
20:11
Speaker 1: her roommate's new ridway. Something was wrong. I said, well,
20:14
Speaker 1: where did she go last night? And said, while she
20:16
Speaker 1: went to a dorm leaders meeting and was on our
20:19
Speaker 1: way back to the dorm room and never came back.
20:24
Speaker 1: This is where we where. He objected her she had
20:29
Speaker 1: to walk through this to get to her dorm. I
20:32
Speaker 1: would be obsessed with searching for her. She had bright
20:36
Speaker 1: yellow ski coat. I would just look for that, and
20:38
Speaker 1: everywhere we went, I found myself looking in fields and
20:42
Speaker 1: ditches for this yellow ski jacket to stick out like
20:45
Speaker 1: a sore thumb, and I would be able to say
20:47
Speaker 1: A found her. And we lived for a long time.
20:50
Speaker 1: You can hear the heartbreak in the voice of Vivian Raincourt.
20:54
Speaker 1: That's Susan Raincourt's mom along with her sister, crying, crying,
21:03
Speaker 1: speaking out about the day that Susan disappeared, and how
21:10
Speaker 1: for so many years they kept just looking instinctively for
21:14
Speaker 1: her yellow coat. Well, she was a ted Bundy victim.
21:18
Speaker 1: And in the last weeks, Netflix has released a real
21:23
Speaker 1: glamorization of Bundy. The serial killer, the rapist, the killer,
21:29
Speaker 1: the kidnapper, the necrophiliac Ted Bundy. And you know, I
21:35
Speaker 1: like Zac Efron to somebody not like zac Efron, but
21:40
Speaker 1: this portrayal of Bundy. And again, this is not about Efron,
21:45
Speaker 1: As I said, He's just a squirrel trying to get
21:47
Speaker 1: a nut, trying to make a living like the rest
21:49
Speaker 1: of us. You get some movie deal, sure I'll do it,
21:53
Speaker 1: but oh the way Bundy is glamorized. It just to
21:58
Speaker 1: doctor Peter Vronsky, author of Sons of Kine, History of
22:01
Speaker 1: serial killer Stone Age to present, what's your response to
22:06
Speaker 1: the movie? Before I go back to Kathy Kleiner, who
22:08
Speaker 1: actually survived Bundy, what do you make of the movie? Well,
22:13
Speaker 1: you know, the portrait that we have of Ted Bundy
22:17
Speaker 1: in that movie, is it gained, you know, that quality
22:20
Speaker 1: that he had, that characteristic that he presented um and
22:26
Speaker 1: and so we see the surface, we see the mask.
22:32
Speaker 1: You know a lot of us have grown up knowing
22:34
Speaker 1: about Ted Bundy, but you have a whole new generation
22:37
Speaker 1: that doesn't quite understand who or what Ted Bundy. Really was,
22:42
Speaker 1: and how he was able to lure so many victims,
22:45
Speaker 1: And of course it was that, you know, that psychopathic
22:50
Speaker 1: career that allowed him to lure these victims into these
22:55
Speaker 1: vulnerable positions where he was able to abduct them and
22:59
Speaker 1: take them away. And so we get that side of
23:02
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. We see the side that the victims saw
23:07
Speaker 1: before he revealed himself. What is again regrettable about that
23:12
Speaker 1: film is that it doesn't show us the real Ted Bundy,
23:17
Speaker 1: what was really lurking beneath that mask that we don't see.
23:21
Speaker 1: You mean, the Ted Bundy that would bathe the dead
23:24
Speaker 1: victim's bodies and make love to them and put makeup
23:29
Speaker 1: and hear spray on him. That Ted Bundy, the freaky
23:32
Speaker 1: killer Ted Bundy, That Ted Bundy indeed the monster, this
23:37
Speaker 1: this this predatory, really monstrous creature, you know, on the
23:44
Speaker 1: scale of serial killers, Ted Bundy. Really. I think that's
23:50
Speaker 1: why we're so fascinated with him, because when we look
23:53
Speaker 1: at serial killers, you know, some of them really look
23:56
Speaker 1: like serial killers. I'm not really fascinated by him. To
24:00
Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky, I'm not really fascinated. I just want to
24:02
Speaker 1: put a hole through his neck, like he's a snake.
24:05
Speaker 1: So that's kind of how I feel about him. But
24:08
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying because it's so bizarre. I mean,
24:10
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, think about it. You know how hard it
24:13
Speaker 1: is to put on the eyeliner straight, much less when
24:16
Speaker 1: you're driving. That's a whole other can of worms. But eyeliner.
24:20
Speaker 1: Can you imagine him with the dead body trying to
24:24
Speaker 1: perfectly apply eyeliner and mascara and lipstick on a dead
24:32
Speaker 1: body of a woman that he raped and murdered. Think
24:37
Speaker 1: about it. Just wait a minute, Cheryl, Just think about it,
24:41
Speaker 1: him hunched over the dead body trying to put an
24:45
Speaker 1: eyeliner a lipstick. Oh okay, now that you've thought about it,
24:51
Speaker 1: way in he was meticulous. He did take his time.
24:55
Speaker 1: He had a plan that was so clear in his
25:00
Speaker 1: mind exactly what he wanted to happen. And here's the thing.
25:04
Speaker 1: As I listened to Kathy Kleiner and I've heard her
25:07
Speaker 1: story more than once, and every time, like you, I
25:10
Speaker 1: just get chills and I just hurt for her. But
25:14
Speaker 1: it's important for people listening to her to realize, prior
25:18
Speaker 1: to him attacking Katherine and Karen, he had already killed
25:25
Speaker 1: Lisa and Margaret, he had already killed two of their
25:30
Speaker 1: friends in that house. He walked calmly down the hall
25:35
Speaker 1: and entered another room. Then he would murder, rape, walk
25:41
Speaker 1: down the hall, strangled, beat rap, walked down the hall
25:46
Speaker 1: and enter another room to do it again. And there
25:50
Speaker 1: is no doubt in my mind that Kathy was his
25:55
Speaker 1: next victim. Ted Bundy didn't attack anybody to hurt him.
26:00
Speaker 1: He attacked them to kill them. Kathy Kleiner with me
26:04
Speaker 1: one of the few you know in all the Harry Potters,
26:07
Speaker 1: they refer to him as the boy who lived, the
26:10
Speaker 1: only boy who lived. This is the girl who lived.
26:15
Speaker 1: Kathy Kleiner lived through a real life Valdemore, a real
26:23
Speaker 1: life devil incarnate. And I just can't even imagine being
26:28
Speaker 1: in the room. You know, Sometimes, Kathy, I look back
26:32
Speaker 1: on murderers, spree killers, serial killers that I actually prosecuted,
26:38
Speaker 1: and they had an aura about them. I don't care
26:42
Speaker 1: who wants to make fun of this. They had an
26:45
Speaker 1: aura about them that it was just different. They're not
26:49
Speaker 1: like regular people. It's like holding holding a reptile in
26:54
Speaker 1: your hand and it looks at you and you know
26:57
Speaker 1: it has no feeling, and it's just cold blood running
27:01
Speaker 1: through those veins. I want to go back to where
27:03
Speaker 1: you left off, Kathy. What happened? Then? When the lights
27:07
Speaker 1: shone up in our room, I could see more clearly
27:12
Speaker 1: this dark shadow again. I did not see his face.
27:16
Speaker 1: All I could make out was the shape of a
27:20
Speaker 1: body of man. I remember the light shone so bright
27:25
Speaker 1: in our room that it felt like it it was
27:30
Speaker 1: a flood of a personal I'm sorry, a personal feeling
27:38
Speaker 1: that the blows were going to stop, that he was
27:44
Speaker 1: going to stop attacking me, because I saw him turn
27:49
Speaker 1: around and leave run out of our bedroom. In a
27:56
Speaker 1: few minutes, the light went away, the room was dark,
28:02
Speaker 1: and the beatings had stopped. I was screaming, I was yelling.
28:08
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my bed just yelling for help,
28:13
Speaker 1: and actually all I was doing was making gurgling sounds.
28:18
Speaker 1: When he attacked me. My jaw was shattered so bad
28:23
Speaker 1: that it was hanging off my face and attached only
28:28
Speaker 1: to fraction of the bone on my joint. My cheek
28:34
Speaker 1: was split open from my mouth to my ear, where
28:39
Speaker 1: it exposed the inside of my mouth. I also almost
28:44
Speaker 1: bit my tongue off because at ease injuries I was
28:49
Speaker 1: gurgling and not screaming what I like. I thought I
28:53
Speaker 1: was the next thing, I remember a packed paramedics and
28:57
Speaker 1: a police offer off for coming to the side of
29:00
Speaker 1: my bed, and as soon as I saw the policeman,
29:05
Speaker 1: I knew I was safe. I didn't know a lot
29:08
Speaker 1: of what was going on because I was so confused
29:11
Speaker 1: and hurting so bad. At this point, it felt like
29:17
Speaker 1: knives being dug into my face. When I saw the
29:23
Speaker 1: police officer, I knew this person that hit me in attack.
29:28
Speaker 1: Still confused and gazed, I felt safe. The paramedics were
29:34
Speaker 1: at the side of my bed trying to assess what
29:39
Speaker 1: exactly had happened to me. I remember in the state,
29:44
Speaker 1: I was trying to talk and the paramedics said, it's okay,
29:50
Speaker 1: don't worry. You've been shot in the face, but we're
29:54
Speaker 1: going to take care of you. Again, confusion hit me
29:59
Speaker 1: because I knew I was hit with a log. I
30:03
Speaker 1: knew my face was struck with a log. I didn't
30:07
Speaker 1: remember being shot in the face again. That just compounded
30:13
Speaker 1: a confusion I had in my head of exactly what
30:16
Speaker 1: was going on that night Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
30:34
Speaker 1: I thought he was going to kiss me instead. He said,
30:39
Speaker 1: very quietly, do you know what I'm going to kill you?
30:44
Speaker 1: And he put his hands on my throat and started squeezing.
30:48
Speaker 1: My first thought was has to be some kind of
30:50
Speaker 1: a joke. This guy's got the weirdest sense of humor.
30:52
Speaker 1: But that was just maybe a fraction of a second
30:55
Speaker 1: because I realized he was squeezing too tightly. He was
31:00
Speaker 1: aus and I was in trouble, and there's no door handle.
31:05
Speaker 1: What did you do? We had a little small battle
31:08
Speaker 1: in the car, but I went unconscious, so he choked
31:12
Speaker 1: you to the point of unconsciousness. Yes, did you put
31:15
Speaker 1: up a fight? I did as much of a fight
31:18
Speaker 1: as you can put up when you're running out of air.
31:20
Speaker 1: Did you think at that point I'm going to die?
31:23
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friend doctor Phil speaking to one of
31:26
Speaker 1: the only other known living victims of Ted Bundy, in
31:30
Speaker 1: addition to our special guest Kathy Kleiner joining us today.
31:33
Speaker 1: That was Ronda Stately, and that's not all. Listen. He
31:38
Speaker 1: was slapping my face again, trying to wake me up again,
31:40
Speaker 1: and he said, good girl, good girl, you don't want
31:44
Speaker 1: to die yet. Don't die on me yet, because you
31:46
Speaker 1: would miss the best part, and he got me by
31:49
Speaker 1: my boot to the end of the picnic table, pulled
31:51
Speaker 1: my pants down, and raped me. And just as that
31:56
Speaker 1: was finishing, he leaned forward again and put his hands
31:59
Speaker 1: around my throat and was choking me again. And at
32:01
Speaker 1: that point I didn't struggle. I decided I was dead.
32:05
Speaker 1: I was just going to wait until it was over.
32:08
Speaker 1: The next thing I knew, I was laying on the ground,
32:10
Speaker 1: and I was sort of surprised when I came to again,
32:13
Speaker 1: and it was pitch dark, and he was standing by
32:16
Speaker 1: the open door, fiddling with something in the back seat,
32:19
Speaker 1: like thirty feet away from me. And I didn't really
32:21
Speaker 1: plan anything like a great escape, but adrenaline was running
32:25
Speaker 1: and I just jumped and ran. I didn't run very
32:28
Speaker 1: far because my pants were in a water around my ankles.
32:31
Speaker 1: I tripped after just one or two steps, but fortunately,
32:35
Speaker 1: or luckily, or intervention from above or something, I fell
32:40
Speaker 1: into a fast moving mountain river that swept me away
32:43
Speaker 1: from my attacker and probably saved my life. Wow, talk
32:46
Speaker 1: about divine intervention. You know what, if anybody doesn't believe
32:50
Speaker 1: in miracles, they need to hear Rhonda Staply. That's her
32:54
Speaker 1: speaking with our friend, doctor feel Or listened to Kathy Kleiner,
32:58
Speaker 1: who was with me right now, one of the only
33:01
Speaker 1: known victims to survive Ted Bundy. To doctor Katherine Ramslind,
33:05
Speaker 1: Professor Forensic Psychology to Sales University, the author of sixty books,
33:10
Speaker 1: including Inside the Minds of Serial Killers Why They Kill
33:14
Speaker 1: on Amazon, Doctor Ramslin, I have no doubt in my
33:17
Speaker 1: mind that there are other Bundy victims out there that
33:21
Speaker 1: have never been identified. There are still unsolved cases. I'm
33:24
Speaker 1: sure there are. He even thought there were himself, but
33:27
Speaker 1: he couldn't remember them when he was doing the final interviews.
33:31
Speaker 1: And there probably don't want to talk about it. They're
33:35
Speaker 1: still traumatized by it, Cheryl. So many women don't come
33:39
Speaker 1: forward after rape. I don't know why. Well, I guess
33:42
Speaker 1: I do know why. Actually, they don't want to think
33:46
Speaker 1: about it. They don't want to go through a pelvic exam,
33:49
Speaker 1: they don't want to be attacked on cross exam. They
33:51
Speaker 1: want to suppress it, pretended didn't happen, to go on
33:54
Speaker 1: with their lives. It's really hard to do that, Cheryl.
33:56
Speaker 1: It's impossible to do that, Nancy. But here's the thing.
34:00
Speaker 1: Prior to Kathy Kleiner, if you were to look at
34:03
Speaker 1: that scene that Bundy left at the child mega house,
34:07
Speaker 1: and you've got victims strangled and beaten and they were
34:11
Speaker 1: raped with objects, you would believe that this person that
34:15
Speaker 1: did it, that is capable of that type of justice violence,
34:20
Speaker 1: would be an out of control just in this frenzy.
34:25
Speaker 1: But listening to Cathy talk, we know that's not true.
34:30
Speaker 1: He was controlled, he was slow, He never said one word.
34:36
Speaker 1: He slowly walks in a room, murders, raped, slowly down
34:41
Speaker 1: the halls in the next room does the same thing.
34:44
Speaker 1: Because of Kathy, we have insight to how this serial
34:49
Speaker 1: killer murdered and that to me is so invaluable and
34:55
Speaker 1: her brain. Why why does everybody keep talking about him
34:59
Speaker 1: like they want to out of him, like he's a
35:01
Speaker 1: work of art. He's the devil and you know, we
35:04
Speaker 1: can understand understand what It's just like jumping into a
35:09
Speaker 1: vat of snakes. What is there to understand? How can
35:13
Speaker 1: you take somebody young and wonderful and just destroy I'm
35:20
Speaker 1: thinking about Kathy Kleiner at that age, She's just this
35:24
Speaker 1: young teen gruel it Just what do you make of
35:30
Speaker 1: the new movie out on Netflix with Zach effren I
35:36
Speaker 1: watched it with my husband, and I did see how
35:42
Speaker 1: he wanted people to see him. It was a movie
35:46
Speaker 1: about Ted, but it shown to me a different side
35:51
Speaker 1: of him because I did not know the story of
35:54
Speaker 1: his girlfriend and their relationship. Because of that, you saw
36:00
Speaker 1: him more as a person than the devil and the
36:04
Speaker 1: beast inside of him. By not showing him attacking with
36:11
Speaker 1: the blood and the gore the other victims, it put
36:17
Speaker 1: into it put into view for me that he was
36:23
Speaker 1: in control at some point, but he enjoyed it when
36:27
Speaker 1: he let the beast out, and that when he raped
36:30
Speaker 1: and killed he got satisfaction out of that. But when
36:35
Speaker 1: he went home he saw his girlfriend and her daughter.
36:40
Speaker 1: That movie portrayed Bundy and his girlfriend, but it didn't
36:46
Speaker 1: show the victims, and I think because of not showing
36:51
Speaker 1: him attack them, it wasn't a point in the movie
36:56
Speaker 1: where the victims should have been examined and talked about
37:02
Speaker 1: and how they were killed and taken away from us
37:05
Speaker 1: so soon from this world. At that point, I thought
37:10
Speaker 1: the movie was done very well as far as the
37:14
Speaker 1: acting and the portrayal of how he was when he
37:18
Speaker 1: wanted to be seen that way. I didn't see it
37:22
Speaker 1: as showing the victims until the very end when the
37:27
Speaker 1: credits rolled and all the names of the victims, all
37:32
Speaker 1: of our names were on the TV screen, and it
37:36
Speaker 1: showed that we were people and we did have names.
37:42
Speaker 1: So I think that at that point acknowledging us was
37:47
Speaker 1: a way of showing that the film was sensitive enough
37:52
Speaker 1: to show who we were. The story of Ted Bundy
37:55
Speaker 1: goes on, because I guarantee you there are other victims.
38:00
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye Friend,