Latest / Identity at the Center / #414 - Sponsor Spotlight - Evolveum

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#414 - Sponsor Spotlight - Evolveum · Identity at the Center

0:04
This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity at the
0:11
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
0:13
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
0:15
Oh, not so bad yourself. Good.
0:18
Just so everyone knows, we're having technical difficulties
0:21
right before we have recorded, but we should be fine.
0:25
I wanted to say, you know, we went to EIC last year.
0:28
We got to meet a lot of super people.
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Some of those super people came from today's sponsor.
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They have a open source product which I found extremely
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interesting. I mean, I've always been a big
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open source fan. And that's what's great about
0:45
our community, man, is the variety and the friendliness of
0:48
people. And I'm excited, you know, we're
0:51
going back to EIC again this year.
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We'll get to interact with people again and interact with
0:56
this sponsor today. Yeah, we've got a Sponsor
1:00
Spotlight episode today, and we want to thank Evolvium for
1:03
sponsoring today. So, you know, their support
1:05
helps make podcasts available to people around the world, and so
1:08
we certainly appreciate it. You can learn more about them at
1:11
EVOLE um.com/IDAC. And don't worry, I'll have links
1:16
in our show notes so people can check that out.
1:19
But let me go ahead and choose our guest today.
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His name is Paul Meterley or Pavel Meterley.
1:22
Sorry, Pavel. He's the interim CPO with
1:25
Evolvium. Welcome to identity at the
1:27
Center, Pavel. Thank you very much.
1:31
Yeah. So, you know, we're going to
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learn more about Evolvium today and kind of what you guys do and
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sort of the, you know, the space.
1:38
But let's start with a little about you.
1:40
You know, let's learn more about Pavel.
1:42
How did you get into identity and access management?
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Is it something that you picked or did it choose you?
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OK, I would say it, it chose it chose me because I was working
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in university IT since 1991 and at the beginning of the century,
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identification cards for students and employees had to be
2:07
issued. So the first complete registry
2:10
of persons at the university had to be created and regularly
2:15
synchronized with two dozen systems, source systems ensuring
2:21
things like data quality, unique identifiers and so on and so on.
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So we had to write an in house solution that time didn't even
2:30
knowing that it's called identity management.
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Well, I would say funnily enough, some of some parts of
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the solutions are in operation still today, but I hope that
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they will be decommissioned soon because it's, it's, it's, it's
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quite a nightmare to, to, to, to maintain 25 years old solution.
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I hear you. I mean, you know, there's,
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there's legacy tech and then there's legacy tech and, and
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universities are, are very difficult identity and access
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management environments. I mean, Jim and I have worked
3:04
with a few different, you know, higher education, you know,
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scenarios around the world and you know, it's it's almost
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shockingly complex because you have students, you have
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teachers, you have or faculty, you've got employees, you've got
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contractors, you've got parents, you've got vendor.
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Like there's so many different like personas that are part of
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the university environment that I feel like if you can, if you
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can do IAM in a university environment like that is like
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the tip top from like a difficulty scale.
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Exactly. You are.
3:41
You are right to the point, yeah.
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So tell us a little bit about Evolvium because I've been
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familiar at least, you know, passing distance with Evolvium
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for a few years now. And I know that there's like a
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product called Midpoint as like an open source, you know,
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identity governance solution and maybe other capabilities.
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But let's start with Evolvium. So if I'm the first time, you
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know, listening, you know, what the heck is Evolvium?
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Tell us a bit about the company. OK.
4:10
So I would, I would, I would start when we were founded.
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Yeah. We, we are in business since
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2011. So this summer it will be 15
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years. Well, me personally, I joined
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the company almost at the beginning in October that year.
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And we are open source enthusiasts, I would say and we
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have only one product and it's midpoint, an IGA platform as we
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call it. So that product midpoint, that
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is the part that is open source, I guess help me understand the
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difference between like Evolvium and Midpoint.
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If I wanted to go download midpoint, I could go to the
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website and just download it and read the documentation and run
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it and then Evolvium is what provides services extra on top
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of that. How does that work?
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Yeah, Yes, yes, Evolvium is, is, is the company and midpoint is
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our product. Well, the picture is, is is a
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little bit more complex because we as a company created and
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maintained the product as such and we support the product and
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we have a lot of partners, more than 50 as far as I know us all
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over the world that take the product and offer it to their
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customers and their clients. I would say so.
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So the relationship is well quite complex, but I would say
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fruitful for, for, for, for both parties because everyone does
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what they know the best. They know their environment,
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their country or their industry vertical or whatever.
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So they, they know how to run projects.
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So they, they do all those marketing, sales, whatever is
6:04
needed, project management and so on.
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And they do the deployment and if they have any problem, any
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issue with the product as such or when they need some knowledge
6:16
support or whatever, they ask us.
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And we so, so we are, we are not, not a big company.
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We have a little bit over 50 employees.
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And so, so we can concentrate on the product itself to evolve it,
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maintain it back, fix it, document whatever is needed.
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Well, we have some customers on our own, but the preferred model
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is is go to via our partners. So I'm always interested in how
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companies get named in the space and evolving is a pretty unique
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one. Is there a history or a back
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story there that you can tell me how the name of Volvium
7:04
originated? Yep, for, but I don't know this
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personally because I I entered evolving just after or few
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months after. But from what I've heard, the
7:16
goal was was to find something that would characterize us and
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at the same time would be unique worldwide because you, you, you
7:24
have to have to guard.com domain, obviously so.
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And this uniqueness was was was not easy.
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So Radovan Semanchick, our Co founder and my good friend
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created as he puts it a short and ugly pearls Pearl script to
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to take some some names that that he deemed reasonable
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because they characterized us and combine them in some special
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ways and using prefixes, suffixes and anything else to
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look if something related is available as a domain name.
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And so so so he got a large list of strange or even ridiculous
8:04
names, but there were some little gems hidden and one of
8:08
them was evolved. And I like this name very much
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because is it, well, it, it looks like, like, like the name
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of element, chemical element related to evolution.
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And this describes us very well because evolution is at the
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heart of our approach to developing software and to
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deploying software. And many of us, including me,
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Radovan, Igor, are fans or very passionate about, about science
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and technology. So so this this is this fits
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very well. Pavel, what is the reason that
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many IGA projects either struggle or fail?
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Well, there may be multitude of reasons.
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Many of them come on to all substantial IT projects or even
8:56
projects in general like you know, poor business alignment,
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not having key people on board in a inadequate scope control,
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Big Bang style of deployment, whatever.
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Well, we try to address some of these issues in our methodology
9:15
which is published. But answering this question, I
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would like to concentrate on 2 very specific issues or problems
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that we can address in midpoint as a software product.
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And these are, these are these two.
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The first one is data quality. Some HR departments are, I would
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say well known for less than ideal data quality.
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But your IGA deployment just cannot stop because the data is
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wrong you. You have to go on, otherwise you
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would wait forever. So midpoint is prepared for this
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by allowing you to mark certain records as temporarily skipped
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from processing. So even if you have, for
10:07
example, imagine you have 3030 thousand of of students and 5000
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of employee out 5000 employees and some fraction of those
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employee records are are just wrong.
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So you can select them and this this this will be skipped.
10:23
And let's continue with the others, OK, This is a software
10:26
feature that that that directly addressed this this issue of
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data quality, OK. And the the second thing that we
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are trying to address is the question of slow application
10:39
onboarding. Well this it is a well known
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fact there are hundreds or thousands of applications in a
10:47
typical corporation and the statistics show that only 10 to
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30% of them is actually connected to IGA solution.
10:56
And the reasons were very nicely mentioned in your recent episode
11:01
to with Indus from Red Black, which was well very interesting
11:05
by the way. And those reasons are twofold
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time and money as as Inda said that connecting an application
11:13
can literally take weeks of effort and can cost, he said
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2010 to 20 thousands of of dollars maybe depending
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obviously so and and we as a volume are trying our best to
11:27
improve the situation here. Well, red block attack the
11:33
problem through web user interface.
11:36
We are going in a slightly different way using existing
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APIs like REST scheme and database access.
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But the goal is the same, to dramatically lower the time
11:48
needed to connect the application.
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So in the era of AI, one could ask So what what what about
12:00
cloud code or or any any agentic AI?
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What's the matter? Why, why you just cannot use use
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use use, use those things. About two or three months ago,
12:17
my very good friend and and and working for a for our partner
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approached me and and wrote me Powell.
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So we have or we can use cloud code to generate a connector.
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Would you like to see that? Of course I would like.
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So we arranged the meeting and he asked me what system do you
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want to connect internally? We use open project.
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That's a project management tool, open source.
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And so I told him, please go ahead with open project.
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OK, He set up his cloud code and in 29 minutes while we were
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talking and discussing and looking at the screen like
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generating test test, unit test, generating application, mock up,
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compiling the code and etc etc. So after 29 minutes the cloud
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code said, OK guys, here, here we are, here is the connector.
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Nice. It was, I would say it was
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almost working. Some really minor, minor things
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to to fix it was slightly under 1500 lines of Java code and a
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couple of Maven dependencies. Well that's impressive.
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It is not conceivable one or two years before, but the major
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question is, is this safe to run in production?
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You know, you have you have, you have a jar generated by, by AI
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is it? Would you, would you give this
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to your your customer and and tell them, OK, just run this?
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Well, I wouldn't obviously. So what is needed is a review by
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someone at appropriate level of seniority regarding first of
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all, regarding the, the security of and safety of the code.
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And what, what if the interface changes?
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Well, let's regenerate the code. But again, we we need to review
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etcetera. So our approach is a little bit
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different. Instead of generating this
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level, this amount of code those those 1500 lines, we as a volume
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provide I would say pre engineered framework or better
14:48
set frameworks. But let's say let's talk about
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REST connector framework. So we provide the framework that
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is written, I would say by hand, but obviously maybe, maybe with
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the use of AI, but but in the hands of the senior engineer
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with all the respect for security and safety and so on.
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And then we use large language models to generate just the thin
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layer above it. So our solution takes the
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documentation for a system like open project, tries to extract
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knowledge about what object classes are there, what, what
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data are there. Then in an interactive process
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communicates with the with the engineer sitting behind the
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keyboard and the screen. What object class would you like
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to to access? What operation do?
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What do you like to do? Search or create, update,
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delete, whatever. And then suggests suggests those
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this thin layer of code and you know it is much easier to review
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3 lines of Groovy than 1500 lines of Java.
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So I would say regarding slow application onboarding, this is
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what what we do. And this is only the technical
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level. There are then levels like like
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I would say connecting the application at the data level,
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classification, correlation, data mappings and so on.
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So that's another thing that we all also try to solve.
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Well, you've got a couple, you know, big ticket items there
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between data quality and the connection landscape.
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I mean, those are typically like the big problems, you know, that
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we see, especially when rolling out identity governance.
16:35
What are some other interesting features that people should be
16:39
aware of when it comes to midpoint?
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OK, well, well, I would say the the killer non functional
16:52
feature is the is that it is open source.
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But let's take that aside for a while and let's let's talk about
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the functionality. When I was thinking what, what
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because this this question occurs from time to time.
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So I would I would, I would like to to point out maybe 2
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interesting features. One is 1 is what we call
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simulation. It's about predicting what will
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happen if something is executed, either using current
17:25
configuration or some changes in configuration.
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I will give you an example. Imagine that you are connecting
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a target LDAP directory to your IGA.
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Yeah. So you have users in IGA and you
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have existing users in LDAP and you created some map, some data
17:46
mappings in good faith that for example e-mail address here is,
17:50
is is connected to mail attribute there and so on and so
17:54
on. So transformation may be
17:56
whatever is needed. And now you are preparing for,
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for the, for the step that you will run the reconciliation, you
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will take the data from IGA and push it onto the LDAP.
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And you can imagine that you feel maybe a little bit uneasy.
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And there are basically two options. 1 is that you are brave
18:17
enough and you just hit the button.
18:19
Yes, do it. And you may, you may, you may,
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you may come into a situation that 10% of my users cannot
18:34
login. Why the distinguished name has
18:37
changed for example, or whatever, whatever.
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You, you just didn't know that there is a different naming
18:45
convention or whatever. The data are just different from
18:49
what you expected. Yeah.
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And the other other option is you could, you could set up
18:58
testing LDAP as a copy of your production one and run the first
19:05
reconciliation not against the real LDAP, but against the
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testing or the staging or whatever you call it.
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Yeah. And then you, for example, could
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compare either you can change, you can take some change log and
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see what changes were done there, ideally 0, or you can do
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some comparison between the test Ldub after reconciliation and
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your real Ldub. No.
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And midpoint comes with a special feature that we call
19:35
simulation that you could run the simulated reconciliation.
19:39
Yeah. So so the reconciliation runs,
19:41
but instead of executing the changes on Ldub, it just writes
19:45
them into special log. I would say it's like audit log
19:48
but but but not real audit lock. And then you can view it and ask
19:54
questions or display buttons or tiles like number of accounts
19:59
changed, number of accounts renamed, edit, delete it and so
20:03
on. And you can even see individual
20:05
changes that would happen if the reconciliation would be run.
20:09
So and you can use this feature for not only for connecting
20:13
systems as such, but for almost any configuration changes you
20:17
can create a change. In your configuration, but mark
20:21
the change as proposed. So it is it is in the system,
20:25
but it is ignored by all those production activities.
20:30
You can use that in special activities, you name simulation.
20:35
So you you can for example run the complete recomputation of
20:40
all your users in simulation mode, take those change into
20:44
account and again see what would happen.
20:47
OK, so I think this is this is quite, quite useful because it's
20:52
it's allows you to to go with more bravery than you know.
20:59
There's nothing wrong with a little bravery and making sure
21:01
we're not looking off the the Cliff before, you know, we
21:04
before we leave. That simulation is pretty
21:07
unique. I don't know if I've seen too
21:08
many, you know, other players in this kind of space have that
21:11
ability to say, OK, what if usually I say like a what if
21:15
analysis would be like a segregation of duties, you know,
21:18
type scenario or something like that.
21:20
But that's a pretty, that's a pretty cool feature.
21:23
I'm curious like from a architecture standpoint, how is
21:28
how does midpoint work? Is this, is this an executable I
21:31
download and run? Is this something I run in the
21:34
cloud? Like tell me a little bit about
21:35
the architecture. OK, it is traditional Java
21:42
application, you know, we withstood all those fancy, you
21:48
know, waves of hype, hype technologies like ESBSOA, micro
21:55
services, whatever and we just didn't need that and we don't
22:00
need them now. So midpoint is a very simple,
22:05
well, simply it is about 2 million lines of code, but it is
22:10
a Java application. So you can run it however you
22:14
need. You can put it into cloud, you
22:17
can put it onto Kubernetes, for example.
22:19
You can run that on, on, on any hardware capable of running
22:24
Java, even even Raspberry Pi, for example.
22:27
So you can do whatever, whatever you you need.
22:31
So this is from the architectural point of view or
22:34
from deployment point of view, Yeah, but internally.
22:46
I'm quite, I'm quite proud of of of, of the architecture, to be
22:50
honest, because from architectural point of view,
22:53
like like data types used or or or data structure structures or
22:58
even features that we use in midpoint, those are extremely
23:02
stable. So we we didn't have to rewrite
23:06
those parts significantly, only some, I would say regular code
23:12
improvements. But from the architectural point
23:15
of view, these are some limited set of basic objects, some basic
23:19
mechanisms like archetypes, mappings, policy, rules and
23:25
whatever. And the value metadata at this
23:29
is. This is also, I would say,
23:31
interesting part of the architecture and you and you can
23:36
come match and combine those to create very, very, very
23:41
interesting features. What are some of the challenges
23:44
of maintaining a code base like that?
23:46
You mentioned it's a Java app. You've got, you know, millions
23:49
of lines of code. And you know, I have to imagine
23:52
like there is a lot that goes in to maintain that because you're
23:56
maintaining an open source product, right?
23:58
There's people all around the world that depend on this to
24:01
work. So tell me a little bit about
24:02
some of those challenges. OK, it is quite challenging to
24:07
be honest. You, you, you have, you have to
24:11
do proper engineering because you, you are building something
24:15
that has to last. We, we just cannot imagine that
24:19
for example, we just could throw all that away and and hire 100
24:26
engineers and rewrite that from from scratch.
24:29
So what do you do? You must do looking well one to
24:33
five years ahead. So you have to have the best
24:38
software developers available. I must I must say that hiring
24:42
into our team is a bit challenging.
24:44
We cannot just take anyone who applies.
24:48
But at the same time the the work is then never boring.
24:52
It is challenging but but never boring.
24:57
The security is crucial. I would say the enormous
25:01
flexibility of the solution can lead to unexpected interactions.
25:05
And so we have to be very careful here and invest a lot of
25:11
resources into making sure the product is secure and safe.
25:16
So Pavel, what are the, what's the main impact of the product
25:21
being open source and what is the differences, what's the main
25:26
differences between open source and closed source?
25:31
Well, I would maybe, maybe I would say better about the
25:36
benefits that comes with being open source.
25:40
Yeah. And that the benefits are for
25:43
both our customers or users, so to say.
25:46
And us, when speaking about customers or users, the main
25:51
benefit is the transparency. And so for example, you have the
25:58
source code, you can run a wholly independent audit for,
26:04
for example, for security and the penetration testing, not
26:08
only black box, but white box penetration testing whenever you
26:13
want in, in whatever way you want this to, to, to do.
26:17
Yeah. So so you, you, you can, you can
26:20
do everything with with the code to make sure that, yes, this
26:23
fits our purposes even from, from security point of view.
26:27
Of course we as a volume do some of these tests as well and even
26:33
more are planned, but the customers do not need to rely on
26:37
us to do this. So this is I would say the first
26:40
great benefit. And the second one is, you know,
26:46
it is always talked about the vendor locking.
26:51
I would say in in this world, the vendor locking is virtually
26:54
non existent. Why?
26:56
Because imagine that one day evolving, if volume ceases to
27:00
exist, just disappears. What what, what, what, what
27:04
would be what would what would be the effect?
27:07
Well, the code is still there, no change.
27:10
All the design documents are there again, no change.
27:13
The people like for example, my team are there as well.
27:17
Probably even the company is is no longer there.
27:20
The people are there and and many other people throughout the
27:24
world that more or less can work with the code are again still
27:29
there. So so there is no problem, no
27:32
barrier, legal nor more technical to take over the
27:35
support and future maintenance of the product.
27:38
It probably won't be easy, but definitely possible.
27:43
So this one and well, the freedom of deployment, yes, you,
27:48
you can, you can take the product and deploy it on
27:51
whatever hardware, software platform you, you need, you, you
27:55
want of of course not everything is supported, but without some
28:00
limits you, you can do that. So for example, you are not
28:04
bound to the cloud. There is well, what, what if the
28:07
cloud doesn't work as as expected within a year or two or
28:12
whatever? No, no, no one knows.
28:14
So it is reasonable to use it, but to have an exit strategy.
28:17
So I would say this is this is quite, quite a nice fit.
28:21
And what is also very nice for for for our users as well As for
28:26
us is the community. You know, the feeling that you
28:31
are not me and you, but you know, we are, we are a
28:34
community. And this is I would say
28:38
personally very fantastic feeling.
28:42
You know, for example, mailing list.
28:44
Yeah, so, so we are discussing some somebody has a problem and
28:48
writes the mailing list and either somebody from from
28:52
evolving. But it is much nicer if somebody
28:56
from from partner or even from from a user that we even didn't
29:00
know that uses midpoint answers and helps them and so on.
29:05
So, so people are are connected or, or for example, take, take
29:10
bug, bug reports or or support tickets.
29:13
Yeah, it is. It is so nice when when when
29:19
your user which you know personally submit the ticket and
29:25
provides also the analysis there that I think the root cause is
29:30
da da, da, da, da, da and look at the line 1234 in this class
29:35
and even even what what's what's what's even nicer is is if if
29:41
they did they prepare, for example, pull request.
29:43
So you just you just look at the pull request.
29:47
This is this is OK. Is there a test?
29:49
Yes, there is a test. OK, just merge and, and we are
29:52
done. So it, it saves an effort.
29:55
But, but for me personally, what, what, what it brings is
29:59
some feeling of cooperation. You know that you have somebody
30:03
who understands your work and, and, and cooperates with you,
30:07
even if he's from a different company.
30:10
So this I, I, I would say hello to Hiroyuki, hello to Martin and
30:16
to any other other my friends that, that, that cooperate, even
30:21
if not employees of evolving. So and Speaking of community,
30:27
what, what is, what is, what is very important for us.
30:32
And I would like to, to stress it out that we started to
30:36
organize regular midpoint community meetups.
30:39
It was the first was two years ago and in Copenhagen and the
30:47
then it was in Bratislava. And this year in May we will
30:52
have, we will hold a midpoint community meet up in May in
30:57
Prague in Czech Republic. So all our users, friends,
31:03
partners or anyone who is interested in midpoint, please
31:07
register and go to Prague and then visit us.
31:10
And Jeff and Jeff, you are also welcome.
31:14
We would, we would be, I would be very glad to meet you
31:16
personally. I.
31:17
Have never been at Prague, but I would be happy to go to Prague.
31:20
I'll go anywhere at least once. Pobble and the, you know, the,
31:25
the community is such an important aspect of things.
31:27
I mean, it's almost kind of like this podcast would be nothing
31:30
without the community. And you know, I mentioned I had,
31:34
you know, awareness of midpoint and Evolvium from years back.
31:38
And I see midpoint mentioned quite a bit on Reddit.
31:42
So on like identity access management, identity management
31:45
subreddits, Midpoint comes up quite a bit.
31:47
And you know, there is, I think something unique obviously
31:50
around when you have a large community of developers and
31:53
people who are interested in seeing the product not only
31:56
work, but get better over time and continue to enhance and meet
32:01
needs and things like that. I do I, you know, I don't, I
32:04
don't think we should undersell that.
32:05
Like, you know, I think there is, you know, space for all
32:07
kinds of software in the world. But the open source community,
32:10
there's yeah, there's this, there's this picture on the
32:12
Internet of like how the Internet works and like it's all
32:15
these different shapes. And then at the very bottom,
32:18
like this corner, that kind of little open source tool, right,
32:21
that community builds and maintains and somehow like the
32:25
entire Internet works because of it.
32:27
I know, I know, I know this picture.
32:28
I like it very much, yes. Well, we're almost out of time,
32:32
but I do want to ask a very important question because I
32:35
know you're into nature and you know, and other things.
32:40
And So what I want to understand is whether you are a mountain
32:43
person or an ocean person, would you, where would you rather, you
32:48
know, set up shop and and sort of live and and habitate?
32:55
Thank you very much for this question.
32:57
Yes, I'm definitely a mountain person.
33:01
I, I love mountains and fortunately for for us in
33:04
Slovakia, we have we have a, we have a lot of beautiful
33:08
mountains. So there are places that are
33:13
honestly, I was like heaven on earth and, and yes, so, so I
33:18
love mountains. I, I live currently my, my
33:23
nearest mountains are 30 kilometers away, but that's not,
33:27
not so not so far. So yes.
33:30
That's a good bike ride or walk if you're Ventress or if you're
33:34
like me, more of a drive to get there.
33:37
I want to save my energy for being in the mountains and, and
33:40
walking around. I don't want to be like tired
33:42
and like not be able to enjoy it.
33:44
So So when I when you say mountains define mountain like
33:49
what are we talking about from a altitude or a height
33:52
perspective? OK, OK.
33:55
Well the majority of mountains, mountains in Slovakia are from
34:00
from 1000 to 2000. The highest peak is 2655.
34:09
I don't, I don't remember exactly, but something like that
34:12
we have. We have a well known mountain
34:16
range called High Tatras, very visited and so on.
34:21
But other mountains in Slovakia are also awesome.
34:25
But the range is as I said. So when you say like 2600,
34:30
you're referring to meters? Meters.
34:32
Yeah, yes. OK.
34:33
And so I have to do math for my American brain.
34:36
That's about 80. 500. Feet, yeah, that's pretty good.
34:40
I I live in the mountains of western North Carolina in the US
34:45
for me, am I? So I'm currently at 2500 feet,
34:49
so much smaller. About a quarter 500, OK.
34:53
Yeah, about 1/4 of that of that, you know, comparison.
34:59
But I'm the same way. I am more of a a mountains
35:02
person. I like to look at the ocean, but
35:06
I do not want to be in the ocean, if that makes sense.
35:09
The same the same for me. Jim, are you a mountain person
35:14
or an ocean? Person So I'm sorry with what
35:18
you just said there. If I take that question and I
35:22
take a technical viewpoint of it, ocean being the water could
35:27
be like a rocky beach or something or I don't know a
35:31
boat. There's no way I would do that.
35:34
But if you're talking like a beach, I'm a beach person over a
35:38
mountain person. So I know I kind of figured
35:40
that's what you meant. But if it came down to like,
35:44
hey, like the beaches in Maine or Nova Scotia that are all
35:48
rocky, that doesn't interest me at all.
35:51
I'd rather be in the mountainside.
35:53
I'm almost 5050 between them. So I live in the Black Hills of
35:57
South Dakota. They call them hills.
35:59
And they're, they're not mountains, like even the
36:02
Appalachian range that you live in, Jeff.
36:05
And certainly my 7500 feet, it's probably like 1500 feet.
36:12
They're they're noticeable. I mean, I grew up in an area
36:15
that was like an urban area and it was pretty flat.
36:18
So I do enjoy the other thing they do here is this used to be
36:24
like a gold mining area. And so there's a lot of like old
36:28
gold mining roads and they open them up that you can ride.
36:32
They call like side by sides or utility vehicles through these
36:35
roads. And they were like super rough.
36:37
Like you couldn't drive a car, but you can if you have a souped
36:40
up Jeep, you can ride them through there and people do that
36:44
stuff is a lot of fun. I mean, I used to like hiking,
36:48
but not as much as I like driving things through
36:53
mountains. But I'm definitely, I think a
36:56
beach person. Like if you give me a sandy
36:58
beach and a cocktail, like now we're talking, man, that's a
37:02
vacation to me. But there's sand at the beach
37:05
and I just sand gets everywhere. Thank you everywhere.
37:09
You know, I, I always I've actually never been on a I'm
37:14
sorry I was on like one Caribbean vacation, but I
37:16
actually went to Cancun. Some of those.
37:18
Most people probably don't count that, but I.
37:21
Count it. That's what I've done.
37:23
I'm going to start doing them more, but I think I'm going to
37:26
be more of a pool person. I think I'll be at the pool and
37:29
like being one of those endless pools where you look at the
37:31
beach. But Denise is a straight up
37:33
beach person, so I know I'm going to be at the beach.
37:38
I just, I don't want to be in the water.
37:40
I it's been decades since I've last swam.
37:44
There's monsters in the ocean. Not interested.
37:47
Not at all. Definitely monsters.
37:49
They're sharks and Now's AI, the sharks can be like 25 feet long
37:53
and it's scary stuff, man. Yeah, no kidding.
37:58
At some point, probably stub your toe on a data center
38:00
somewhere underwater. True enough all.
38:04
Right, let's go ahead and get this wrap up.
38:06
Pavel, thank you so much for joining us.
38:08
You know, definitely, you know, hopefully, you know, people will
38:11
be aware more of evolving. And I think it's, you know, one
38:14
of those things that people need to be taking a look at.
38:15
It's another option out there for people to evaluate, enjoy,
38:19
try. It's one of those things like,
38:21
Hey, try it out, download it. So, you know, see what you
38:24
think, you know, put it to the test, you know, maybe even
38:26
contribute, you know, to the community and and you know, help
38:29
with either bugs or features and things like that.
38:32
Definitely yes, exactly that. Way.
38:34
So I'll have links in our show notes for people to connect with
38:37
you, Pablo, on LinkedIn if they want to.
38:38
I'll also have a link to evolvium.com/I DAC, that is
38:42
EVOLBE um.com/I DAC for people to check out and better
38:49
understand kind of what Evolvium does and learn more about
38:51
midpoint and things like that. Let's see what else you can
38:54
connect with. Jim and I, of course, you know,
38:56
on LinkedIn as well. Send us, you know, feedback,
38:58
ideas for shows, ideas for sponsors.
39:00
Thanks again to Evolving him for sponsoring this episode.
39:03
You know, it's sponsors like you, Pavel, that helped make
39:06
this episode and others available, you know, to people
39:09
around the world. So we definitely appreciate that
39:12
and find us on the web, idacpodcast.com.
39:15
Like, subscribe, share with other like minded people who are
39:19
curious about identity or security, you know, whether you
39:21
like them or whether you don't like them, send it to them
39:24
because you hate our voices. That works fine too, as long as
39:26
people are listening. So we'll go out and leave it
39:29
there for this week. Thanks everybody for watching
39:31
and are listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one.
39:36
You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
39:39
We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
39:43
review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
39:47
website at identity@thecenter.com.
39:51
See you next time on Identity at the Center.