Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 193: Neil Mann - From Electrician Apprentice To Football Pro: and How to Give Back

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193: Neil Mann - From Electrician Apprentice To Football Pro: and How to Give Back · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I guess th there comes a time when, you know, your dreams might be you're like okay, that's not you know when you get older a bit more wise, you go right, there's a time frame, I might have to move on.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't in that yet.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was still like young enough to think, well, I've s I still got half the chance I'd uh be mi getting a pro contract and I was playing well.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was playing regular sort of like men's football, playing the reserves, you know, better really now and holding my own and stacking up a bit, taking more responsibility, you know, and I guess showing some of the things I was going, right, that's you know maybe people take a little bit of notice of me again, getting these trials going right, people are taking notice and like they were they weren't like saying, nah, nah, you know, good.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was like you're done alright, but you know, maybe it's not quite the edit yet, or do your apprenticeship, keep going, come back, you know, we know you're working, all that.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, it was just that diet to I I want to be a pro.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonzalvis, and welcome to a Second Wind Academy Podcast.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Each week I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a TV of conversation.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Elite athletes are still people at all.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Neil, welcome to the show.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Good to have you on here today.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, great.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's great to be here.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for inviting me and give me the opportunity to have a chat and I guess share my story.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's gonna be great.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And well, as we were just saying, it we wanted to sit in person, as we're we're both here in Sydney, but we'll do it over the camera instead.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it will still be a good chat because I think you've had a really and I'm gonna say fascinating career, but then also in the the steps after your career, I think it will be just interesting for those watching and listening at home to to take a bit away from as well.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks again for for giving giving your time up.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, a pleasure.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it has been, I guess we've all got a journey about where it's gone.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not always been uh straightforward, and uh in the world of sports, it's certainly uh, you know, to forge a career out of it is not always easy.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I've certainly got experiences that I can share and and also which may you know resonate with a lot of people as well, but maybe help one or two people as well to understand what might come next.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, good man, good man.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, before we go back and hear that journey, just tell introduce yourself to myself and everyone else, just who you are, what you've been, and what you're up to nowadays.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that shouldn't take too long.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so my name's Neil Mann.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I live in Australia now, been here for 13 years.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Great move for myself and my family, wife, Lucy, two kids, Maisie and Callum.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we're certainly uh loving our lifestyle up here.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um in terms of work, I previously played football professionally in in UK for whole city.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Prior to that, there's a there's a bit of a story before I got there, but we'll maybe come to that in a bit.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um then I got a couple of injuries, which stopped me playing, and um I worked in the at the club for another 10 years before I came to Australia.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Whilst in Australia I've worked for Bosley Park High School, coaches in the FC, youth technical director at Wolling on Wolves, and I had a programme manager role uh prior to joining Football New South Wales, where I'm not the I'm now the club technical development manager.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we the role that I do here with a part of the team that I'm in basically implement the the club standards and benchmarking process where we support clubs first and foremost to grow capabilities, but also benchmark them against the train work that we put together.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating because what I really like about what you're doing now is all those years of experience playing coaching administration that you've done, you're kind of in a role that is giving that back to well, across the state, and it probably feeds in more than that in some respects.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel it?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see it in that way?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, it's a role where that when it came up, I was, you know, I've say interviewed and went through the process to get it, and I was obviously keen to get the opportunity to work with New South Gorgeous, but more importantly, or equally as important, to actually bring to life what the vision of the club standards is.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I've I've been through a process in the UK where we were audited before ECAAP came in, which had elite must plan, which changed a lot of the landscape and youth development in England, and a lot of the players now that we all know our household names have came through that process.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um prior to that, governed by the Football League, and there wasn't still an auditing process where we had to meet standards and certain criteria.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And respectfully, it's probably fair to say that it that wasn't in place in South Wales.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it had been tried before, and it was obviously there is a there's some standards that clubs are expected to meet, but there was no real sort of like direction, if you like, provided across the years of a number of years.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the the frameworks being brought to place now were certainly give some guiding principles for clubs to set themselves up to create and improve this the uh environments they've already got.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I speak to a lot of people through this podcast and in around with what I do, and what's actually refreshing is you gone through that in parts, you've seen it through the UK, you've seen that happen through football there.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so now coming to Australia, being part of setting it up here, you've got a vision, a very clear vision of what success looks like and can feel like.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is it hard to get, you know, coming to another country, is it hard to get everyone else to see that vision and sort of relate and say, this is how good it can be?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think whenever you've been introduced something new in into any kind of environment, into a personal life, so from a larger scale, there's obviously questions, there's always questions asked, and we've taken a lot of time to spend workshops, meeting with clubs over the last two, three years.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's been, you know, a guest to ensure that we're all on the same wavelength, but we certainly aren't pedestal preaching that this is the holy grail of what we should be doing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: We have a vision that we we're all binding to together, and we're very much when we meet with a club, it's a collaboration and a togetherness.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, we we're the governing body, so we lead by direction and our accountability and standards, and but there's some fantastic work going on right at the clubs, and we learn from those environments as well.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: So with there's some experienced people in the house across the state, and you know, uh through that, just like working together and really pushing them standards.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, look we're seeing improvements as we come.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: We might it's no, it's not going to happen overnight, um, but we've certainly from our perspective, we've seen growth and we've seen it, we've seen the improvements being implemented.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, back to the I guess the opportunity to come and be part of that from where I've come from in my background as was something certainly though that was I was keen to get my teeth into.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, we may come back to that as we we look at the future, sort of where you want to take things.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: But you just mentioned there wonderfully where you've come from, that background.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm keen to sort of paint that picture, get that context.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: For you growing up, where were you growing up?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: What was sport, what did it mean for you as a young lad?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think I went to school, but I definitely I know I definitely played sports.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I did come to school.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I was born in Nottingham and I'm Scottish, Scottish background, but I was born in England, so they're you know, I I'm definitely sporting the blues and uh the Titan Army out in there the World Cup.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, I was born in Nottingham, I guess a sporting family.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: My dad played, my granddad played, but certainly my we were the sport was m very much a focus then for my brothers and sisters as well.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: We all did different things, but yeah, so Nottingham, we were going back two years now.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I played for a team called Parkhead, Padstop was called then it progressed into Parkhead Academicals, and I guess we were pretty good in the area.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: We had you know a number of players that went on to play professional as well a few years ago again now, but you know that was uh that was our team, and but from that team we sort of like were scouted by Forest, Knotts County.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I I played for a bit of both really, and again, he's up but what's that 30 or five, 40 odd years ago now?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a bit that's a bit concerning.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um years ago catches up with you, doesn't it?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: It certainly does.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, 40-ish years or so.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was at Forest as a 13, 14-year-old, and you know, doing alright, um, but it was different.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: We played in the sort of like under 14, 15.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: We were playing in the sort of the local amateur team.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I had it in my head that we were playing against men, but I don't think we could have done because that seems a bit wrong, but it was certainly an age group or two above us.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're playing under 18s because the forest, so we played on our own team on a Saturday, but on Sunday we're playing like this.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say the under 18s, like it couldn't have been men, it couldn't have been because we were again that sort of 14, 15-ish sort of age.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was a challenge.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: We were set set out to like you're right, we're gonna test you, you're gonna go out and play against these physically more advanced kids, and you know, certainly it was a deep learning curve in some of the games that we played.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that was me growing up, but sport was very much part of it all, and I guess the practice that we did was was we're unaware of the practice that we were doing, you know.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was like it maybe this still happens now, but it's just not as much, you know, without going on to all the life's different.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Life's there's so many great things happening out from the technology technology perspective, we just didn't have then.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's you know, it was a football obsessed with uh, you know, me and my friends, and I did do other sports to play golf as well as a kid, but it was like any moment we got it was outside in the park, we played street games, we played either on the road, which you know I'm not saying let me just quite roads a quiet over the sack we lived on, so it was the right kind of road.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And again, life is wasn't as busy back then, um certainly it probably doesn't happen now.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: But we played like little skill games, you'd make games up where we played Kirby where you chip the ball the one side of the pavement.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: You Yeah, yeah, I know it.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I know it well.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know it well, you chip the other side, you had to bounce the ball right on the corner of the curb and then it sort of bounced back up, and then you'd go and control it, and that got you a point.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, the worst that affects there's a lot of what a game.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you've just taken me back as well.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just thinking, my gosh, Kirbik, what a game.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Great game.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Great still game.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Great fantastic.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have to put a link, I'm gonna have to find someone who's playing it and uh get a link to it.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: But but we might see like like crossbar challenge, those kind of things.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's that kind of like weight of pass, right kind of trajectory on the ball, spin on the ball, so free kicks, you know, we try to recreate moments from like games we'd seen, or pretend we were my hero's Kenny Dal Gleish.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I was Kenny Dal Gleish.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be, I wasn't Kendall Glee, but I wanted to be Kendall Gleish.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we did.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: We went out and we we practiced these things we might have seen on match of the day, or you know, World Cup games, whatever.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, let's let's do this.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's it was a lot of time playing, you know.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't sport, it was jumping out of trees and riding bikes and you know, doing those kind of things that uh kept us very active.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds great and it's funny.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going back in my mind and I mean it's not playing things like Kirby and Worley and all that type of stuff.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: When did you sort of realise you were good?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: When did you realise this I'm going somewhere?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Never quite sure really did, but I guess that's maybe another another another story for another time.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: But um I think when you started getting picked for I was picked for South Nortship score, that's like the the state team, I guess.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was picked and I was captain, those uh maybe not always captain, but those kind of like well, I was only small, I was really small.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not particularly big now, although I I do argue with one, two people I'm taller than I look.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I could play a bit, I was able to, I guess, show what I could do on the pitch, and um I was getting picked in teams, I was playing for Forest, I was you know, around it.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was small, I would never really felt I was like, I guess, able to impact the game like others could.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: If I got the ball, I was able to show a bit.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd struggle to maybe go and get the ball, if that made sense.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: It would probably have to, you know, we'd we played good football, we had some good players around me as well.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Again, they've gone on to have good careers in either professional or non-league.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I remember there was one or two moments I kind of went and but he kind of go, no, that was decent amount, but that was a good bit of play or a good pass, whatever.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I, you know, I was left footed, so I wanted to play centre mid, that's where I wanted to play.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I was good on the ball, I thought I could play a little bit.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm not sure.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: You thought you were dagly?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you say I wanted to be penny, but at the same time, Graham Sooness was in there as well.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh certainly I wasn't that tough tackling Graham Sooness, but that kind of like I wanted to be that kind of influence.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, physically I wasn't strong, I was didn't really develop so I was 19, which we'll maybe go into.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: But um I think when you start getting selected for a few clubs and you start playing professional clubs, you're kind of going, Oh, I'm I'm doing all right, and I want to be a professional footballer.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I wanted to do.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I want.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I had no other uh ambition to do anything apart from play football.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned earlier on you remember attending school in some shape or form.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: How did that play?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Was there ever a competition?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever have this conflict between I need to get my homework and get my academics done and leave school well versus football?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: How did that play out for you?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, all my energy for me was put into football.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, mum and dad, and now being a parent as well, we know that's not the right thing to do.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for my and mum and dad obviously that you know you've got to do your homework, have you done this, done that?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I may have done it, but I may not have put as much attention into it as I should have done.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I was a good student in terms of being, you know, doing the right thing, but I wasn't really trying to extend myself.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to go and practice hitting the crossbar or taking three kicks or you know, playing Wally or Kirby.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's what that's what I wanted to do.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that was my um I'm not academic, that was my sort of um I journey if you like, my take on it, but you know, I guess we couldn't wait to get from home from school because we dropped the bags of or on the way home we'd be playing football on the park.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Your mum and dad would come out and look for you, where hey, or get in kind of thing, we'd put up your teeth ready, football, I'll be back in a bit.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So but then I should have done better at school.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would always say I'm not academic, I just didn't apply myself as well as I could have done, or should have done, because I wanted to play football and that's where I put my energy into.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And hey, I just wanted to get out and play.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and look, and and you did, and I suppose we're well actually, I'm not gonna say we're talking because of a success, because I speak to others where they put that focus in and it didn't pan out.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's also an interesting journey.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: For you, things clicked into place, you were able to go and play and hit the highs of professional football.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me where did you left school?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: You then went and signed and played.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about that sort of that four-year block.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: What what happened in around there?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is where it gets a bit uh journey goes a bit of a upsnake pass, so to speak.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I just back to the education, I nearly did my GCSEs again.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was the first year GCSEs, you know, when I left in my sort of like maybe mid-20s, I was I still have regrets that I didn't do better.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I should have done better.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I say I'm not academic, but uh if I apply myself correctly, well, you know, I was focused on it.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: I could have done better.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So and there's uh I'll talk about that in my career as well, football and football perspective.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: I should have done better.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I had more to offer than what I actually managed to achieve.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um but from leaving school, so 16, I guess we've got just put a bit of just wind it back slightly.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: My dad, um, so we lived in Nottingham, but my dad was a player coach as well, so he played professionally.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Dad's no longer with us, gotta rest his soul.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: But always a source of knowledge.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was all my family, family I were and are, and support.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be what's called then, I guess it was like the YTS scheme back home, as well as scholarship, and you get signed off time.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Words that we we recall back from playing back then.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um But I at Forest my my dad, I need to get this right.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we were living in Nottingham, and it's coming towards my sort of 15th sort of birthday, where they you know, yeah, I'm doing alright, but then they're looking at under 16, is it like you come out, you leave school at 16 and you do your two-year YTS and you worked full-time at the Forest, and I wanted that that's what I wanted.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: But we my dad got the assistant manager's job at Grimsby Town Football Club.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we were moving from Nottingham to to Lincolnshire, which, you know, fantastic for us, great opportunity, and that was an another step in our family's life, and we obviously were moving.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a decision to be so Forrest had to make an early decision on me.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember um you know at a time it was I'm gonna say it was Liam O'Cain or maybe Ronnie Fenton came to watch who were like part of Brian Clough's backroom staff, very important part, Brian Clough's backroom staff.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Again, whilst I was saying I was decent, I could play a bit, you know, the the feedback was I was too small, and I was small.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't just that, don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's more to that.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you you could see it go out.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't just because of that, but maybe there was other better players around me.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: At that time as well, Forest were bringing players in Scotland, Ireland, there was players coming from it wasn't like it was now where you had to restrict it to recruitment areas.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: They were bringing you know every holiday we'd come in, and there's only a select few of us would go to this next camp where other kids from out the area would come in, we're going, oh wow, we're we're now competing with these boys as well.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And some good players from like Youth International.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I won't retract the small um statement if you like, but it was certainly a factor as well as maybe other players being a bit better than me at the time.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: But then I so we moved to Grimsby and I did uh now we're getting into our under 16 year, my last year of school.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I we moved in my last year of school to Waltham Tobar, which was a an interesting time for me personally to go to school somewhere you don't want to, you know, I have good friends, don't want to move, etc.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Want to move for like great opportunity for the family and for my dad, but so I'm leaving my friends behind, meeting new friends at 15, 16.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a little bit shy and not quite sure of yourself, it wasn't easy.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And but sport, I guess I was able to show pretty quick I was playing a bit, um, but I wanted to be now assigned for Grimsby Town, so because that was the way we lived, made you know made sense, and I wanted a scholarship there, I wanted the YT there.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And sorry if this has gone on a little bit long, but I guess this so we're getting to that point where I left school and want a scholarship.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: My dad is the person who decides who gets scholarships or not.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's now a youth team coach and reserve team coach, as well as under an assistant coach to Alan Buckley at Grisbury Town in the what was now probably Division 4, but now Division 2.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it um basically I didn't get one.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: At the time it wasn't the right decision for me, but it was a hundred percent the right decision in terms of like uh me doing the best thing for me, and that's what my dad wanted to just do the best for me.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it was um I I can't say I I took the the the news particularly positively.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I w I wanted to again it and it sounds people might you know this is not I'm I but people might I thought I was better than some of the players that got one, and that not being arrogant, that's I'm really not that that way at all.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I I like one thing I'm certainly learning as the more athletes that I speak to who are current and butt post is there has to be something about us that believes we deserve that position on the field, right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you take it off the field, sure it sounds arrogant, but I you know what I'm saying really is I think when we're talking about playing, that confidence has to be there.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so don't apologise for feeling oh I was good enough to I earned my right to be on that pitch.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, yeah, it did.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk off the field, yeah, we have to uh shave off the edges a little bit, but you know.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's probably something I've always done.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'd you know, I'd I'd downplay it a bit and I've always been that way, but but in that time, so I became electrician.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So my dad steered me towards a trade, but say not academic, I couldn't wait to leave school, so I was to play footballer, didn't want to do A levels at the time or hires or HNCs as we called that called here.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I signed non-contract for Grimsby, so I was still played reserves and youth team.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know but I trained to be electrician, so it was actually the chain of this company, so it fitted in quite nicely.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I was given a degree of flexibility to be able to get to some games and um you know move around that way.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: But but yes, that was my next step into like I guess youth and senior football playing.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't still hadn't grown much.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then for two years, so I was like a part-time youth team, struct reserve team player, then it came to the age of like signing pros, and I'm like, you know, I'm still 17, 18, not grown much really, but you know, let's say getting stronger, but still but uh but not in my body yet.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And but you know, playing, playing reserve team football, you know, albeit uh low league level if you like, but still some of them players.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested at that time you're working, you know, studying, working to build a trade as a Sparky's electrician, you're playing alongside full-time players to some extent.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: What was challenging about that for you?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was never made awkward by my dad, but it's obviously when you played for your dad's the coach, you know, there's certain um I guess you you don't want to make it you want to go in and prove yourself even more that you're worthy of being there.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that my they are folks, they've never maybe got the chance to ask this, but you know, I'm sure that they look, uh maybe there's a question we'll have asked now, but you know, did he have to validate so the reason to pick me in the team or did he have to go to somebody to say, Look, I'm thinking Neil's gonna play reserves team tonight, you're going, you know, somebody else m should, I'm sure would have gone, no, that you needed to check in, but we're going, Yeah, he's good enough, mate, get him in.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that was the kind of agreement with that I was good enough to do what was doing, still working and being able to play as well.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, for me it was like the challenges of like literally I would turn up, you know, and I wouldn't train at all in the week, and then I would like I'd be playing on the weekend, and then you know, uh perhaps be playing instead of other people who've been training in the week.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And which, you know, you can picture that as a as a player, kind of go, Well, where's he come from?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not like they didn't know me, but it I still like, you know, so that was a hard one for me to manage.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure my dad to manage as well, and to make sure we you know wasn't perceived that kind of nepotism, if you like, and it wasn't ever for me, but I know I got well with you know, older lads, so and you know, occasionally things did rear up and one or two occasions I might walk in, might go a bit quieter in the change room at times, or you go in, well, that's just the way it is, but generally it was uh it's pretty lads were pretty good, you know, I've no ever got on with it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And as I guess it was like hopefully because I could play a bit and you know, when I I was maybe worthy of the place in the team, but at the same time you don't much like if if you're taking the place of a scholar in the team who's there full time to try and get a job and I'm but I I had to look beyond that, kinda go, Well that's I can't let that try and affect me 'cause I'm also trying to get what they want.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a pro footballer.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I don't you know, I guess be somewhat um kick a door down and go right no I'm I've got to come in here and you know I want to get a pro contract from Grimsby now.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not Grimsby I want somebody in the stand to be watching me kind of going right he's not getting one there um so to speak didn't quite happen initially as well.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So did you finish the trades?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Did you uh did you become a qualified electrician?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I did.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: But 18 again that's the age to get a pro contract.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't get one at Grimsby and then I started playing non-league but I I now was playing reserved so I signed a non-contract for Grimsby another non-contract.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: So like I guess like NPL Premier League here.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Wanna go Wolves by Town City sort of standard I was playing that at 17 17 18.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it started to grow a little bit you know 18 maybe 18 it was 1819 um but still you know just getting a bit stronger but can to now compete against men um although you I still get blown over but you know just give me a little shove I was gone um playing it's gonna be fantastic folding Boston United or Boston FC3 um Grantham town John Robertson was my manager who's a Scottish legend and but Martin O'Neill uh folks passed away um but you know legend of the game couldn't believe he's my host Martin O'Neill was down a couple times as well with Grantham so we're around that sort of like you know that that kind of like time but I mean yeah fantastic learning and now my learning is going up because I'm I game it's a bit quicker it's a bit more rugged but in that period of time as well I had I think four or five trials with pro clubs I can't say this but you know I know it happened once because like uh I think I went to Stockport and you know I did alright I was there for three or four days and Danny Bigara was the coach at the time and said so look once you finish your apprenticeship come back I went alright okay no I've got it I was keeping it quiet I was like going out mate I was signed to I was giving a bit of paper I was signed.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah that was that next step until I got I got picked up eventually.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: What made you keep going?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I love football you know still do you know I boost I could still play I I don't I I can't I probably could but I think I would get hurt.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well no it was that I I wanted I guess that there comes a time when you know your dreams it might be you're like okay that's not you know when you get older a bit more wise go right there's a time for me I might have to move on.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't in that yet I was still like young enough to think well I've s I still get half the chance of of be me getting a pro contract and I was playing well.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was playing regular sort of like men's football, playing the reserves you know better really now and holding my own and stacking up a bit taking more responsibility you know and I guess showing some of the things I was going right that's you know maybe people take a little bit of notice of me again getting these trials going right people and taking notice and like they w they weren't like saying nah now you're no good.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was like you're done alright but you know maybe it's not quite ready yet or do your apprenticeship keep going come back you know we know you're working all that so um yeah it was just that I I want to be a pro.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so what shifted?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: What made the where was this opportunity then appearing for you to turn pro?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: How did that come about?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it was um it's a good story actually because it was uh I was probably coming to I was probably getting to that time laptop four or five you know no's if you like to the point where going I didn't I didn't have any it was good end of the season.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was in fact I know I'm pretty sure it was last game or second last game so that so we played whole city for the Grimsby Reserves.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Dad rang me you know I was living at home at the time so maybe maybe maybe it's pre-mobile phones let's be honest so maybe in the morning he's going can you play tomorrow night kind of thing I went oh I'll find out because they I work and whatever and then they came back yeah I can play tomorrow night alright yeah um the c the bus is leaving at whatever time yeah was 45 minutes away from Grimsby be on it so I I literally would turn up on the bus in my my overalls get changed to the toilet for my my track suit go and play and that was a normal thing alright lads you know here we go playing so we played and um you know when you score a good goal right I I scored a good goal actually I don't I don't know what it's like to score a good goal the one good goal scored was against four seat reserves and you know I mean I set another one up I th we won 2-0 or 2-1 but it was I I scored an assist anyway.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know I I think it's many well I then went on to play pro but that's probably when the games go no I know I know I had a good game then and you know there's many many games I've I don't remember many I know I had a good game.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: And anyway after the game I'm like we're on the coach and unb well me and my dad went for a beer afterwards on the way home with a couple of the other players um they went on the way home he's gone and the car just me and him now he's gone whole city like you I'm like oh alright he said yeah I said afterwards they I was chatting to uh Jeff Lee Terry Dolan their sort of coaching staff um and they said they asked me you were like number six is that your lad yes you're my lad yeah oh is your pro now he's his electrician he basically when we asked him I went alright does you want to come down to us and have a trial I'll I'll ask him so that's how it kind of went around and like when he was like if you do there's the number give him a call tomorrow went can I call now no it's after night right okay so yeah so and then I I'll call them up and I said yeah I'd love to come down yep it was end of the season come down pre-season um went down preseason played a couple of games I played games against North Ferry and like a a lot our local team there and one or two other games I played I can't I can't recall who I was remember I remember Ferraby again I knew I did alright I still ended up finishing my apprenticeship had a year of it left the final year is like the the one where you get signed off so I don't know the theory the last one is like well you it doesn't really count until you do this last year.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I again signed a non-contract with Hull for a year um with non-contracts who is the invented non contract I know I know um I did play for anybody else apart from Hull Reserves basically I didn't train with anybody I I don't know I didn't train with anybody which is weird when I come to think about it.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: I try I trained every now and then with Grimsby during the day if I was off or had a bit of time but I was still working electrician but I did get much much time off so um I must have trained with somebody but I don't recall training at night with anybody I d I really don't but I kept fit I ran and I always like running I was a decent runner and I would play on a Saturday or sorry midweek for Grimson Reserves Saturday Saturdays every now and then I as a part time player I was involved with the first team every now and then.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah playing both yeah that year yeah that year was part time I I made my debut as a part time player.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah so I which in I have to say now in nowadays I don't think what happened to us would happen.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean financially the club was in a fair bit of trouble and you know they're looking I guess amateur league sorry semi pro league for players you know that's where they were getting them from because they couldn't afford them and it said we're in the we're in the like division one as it is now we were there and doing alright.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe maybe it wasn't just that maybe maybe I was alright.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you were alright.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you were a good player maybe okay and but um but yeah so the yes from then I did my time and then I signed up Pro Contracts after that.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean what it is an amazing story and it it's one where I just think for anyone who's listening it it's whilst things may play out differently in today's world in in football terms, certainly in England, I I don't know if it's too different in many other in many other countries where you would go from non-contract or semi-professional and then suddenly make you know but end up playing with with pros.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the bit that I really get is the fact you didn't stop.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: The fact you had trials at these clubs you spent days with them with work in between work after work and and they said no and they kept going.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And but you you didn't stop.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: You just kept pushing through and pushing through and I guess that talent was there and you perhaps wait for a bit of physical maturity to kick in um but you had that mental resilience.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: There are too many stories of bankruptcy mental health issues and so I think it's time for every year thousands of athletes have reached a point where they need to come with their life activities injury careers between support and a job but a former foot I have somehow managed to transition from support into fact and now life coach career practitioner and the founder of the TechWind Academy.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to help those around me find their career technical find me on Insta or do my new Facebook group Techmind Academy where I'd love to know your thoughts and today I guess this um you know uh resilience was not a word used back then you know it was a different timing to be fair but it was like it was like dig in keep going that was the kind of like you know what we were what I wanted to do and like and say my dad was very and again my not just my dad my whole family are very supportive um but you know obviously I would lean on dad a bit more um for this kind of advice and it was you know I was like mate just keep going you just never know you and that that's something I've always you never know who's watching oh I don't know if Scouts there well you're not supposed to know because you're not supposed to affect your performer so play like some play like you know somebody's watching you don't know who's in the crowd you just don't know and you know I'm sure there was times as well that people came to watch me and said no he's he's not at a good game you know we don't you know he's not for us and I know I know that happened um Walsall um just through a connection that we had they they came watching I just didn't do it.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I went and you know I I I didn't you know so there's times maybe I trials clubs came in and went you know no not he's not doing well enough so yeah certainly digging in and sticking with it is something I would I had to do.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and so with that you got your debut at home and well I guess people will now be doing the whole Wikipedia now all that search and um and in fact we've got a friend, a mutual friend who went and wrote a book um and they did all that research indeed as well.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: From you there, what was that journey like for you then from making that debut and I mean you then stayed for what another decade at least or so of playing what was that like?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I mean um I I'd I played I'd come on as a sub a few times in when I was part time prior to starting I guess I I've got in my head up my my debut was my my actual on the pitch from sub to uh coming on was against Knotts County and but I'd been on the pitch a uh so I'd bench a few times just not got on but I hadn't started.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Actually didn't we say that was we mainly played against each other but I made my town Huddersfield town day reserve debut against Hull and that was the week that you went and had your first grade your first team debut so didn't play.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah well I I found that team sheet which anyhow every now and then I I don't look for it but I I found the box went oh what's in this and went I found the team sheet we're that you're on that was around that time where I must have been around the first team or whatever so um yeah but amazing I'm sure we played the I'm sure we came across each other in terms of playing you know be it youth team or um reserve team football wherever it may have been but um yeah which is a small world but that's what football yeah but yeah but certainly when I made my day like for starting debut and I'm I'm I'm right with this one it was at York City away on on Boxing Day freezing cold um you know and I still wasn't I still wasn't a pro yet I was just like a non-contract player semi-pro playing you know centre mid now I was playing centre mid put me I was it I was in the action you know that's where I wanted to play um whole city against York City um may not to some people it's appear too glamorous but for me it was like the World Cup final you know this was the um I guess that dream of you know I'm starting the game in the professional league I can't believe it you know and you know it wasn't sort of like overall by the situation but it was still a moment kind of going Jesus you know this is what I've been wanting for forever um and you want you you don't just want to play one you want you want more to come after that and that doesn't always happen as we as we know it's not always not always easy but um I remember like the uh it was probably like a traditional thing but um you know where I got my my mum and dad sent a telegram to the club like wishing me the best so you know and I I I I was like you know we're getting changed whatever somebody came in and said Neil envelope for you I'm like going you know what the heck but that that was special those kind of little moments kind of like you know revokes memories of going well what a what a great day and and and I I I recall the game it was I said it was freezing but the crowd like Boxing Day games in the UK are a it's just it's another special occasion that everyone comes out you know it's Christmas cheer and not from the players' perspective because we we're working and playing but you know there was a big crowd in.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was a yeah Halloween York is a is a is a a good local derby and um yeah I nearly scored I'm pretty sure it was nil nil but there wasn't much in it and yeah I've come off like you know I did a radio interview afterwards and you know this kind of stuff and played and you know it was a few yeah a few nice things maybe said and maybe a few other things were said behind closed doors which weren't so nice um but that was that that era but um yeah certainly that was uh yeah that uh I want more moment as well that's what I wanted.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you got more?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've got yeah a few more.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I should have done more but I played the next game I started against Hartley Pool at home and I hit the post twice I should have I should have really should have scored but how how how many I mean you've you left legendary status of sort so when you talk about it, come on, I'm giving you that.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm s I'll say it for you.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say it well um yeah okay.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: How many games did you play?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've my involvement was 209 so from plu starting and and um and being on the bench but I think that's what starts with something like 175, maybe 180 something like that and so when you say you wish you could have done more what does that mean?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's uh it's maybe a a deeper one but I guess um you know I I you know I I look at like m this is gonna sound ridiculous the what I'm gonna say and it's it it's gonna be you I was just saying so my right foot got better when I stopped playing football and became a coach.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a ridiculous statement when and one that I've I I share with players what I coached as you know I I don't coach now but maybe you know I'm this well it's gonna go out or wherever so um because what when I was playing I I got away with it I was left footed and I could run a bit you know that's kind of my that that's I've summed my my ability up there and but my right foot was like you know it was okay but it was it wasn't it did what I needed to do.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was getting on my left foot even if it was on my right foot to play pass.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I haven't played passive my right foot but I wanted it on my left.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then I I started coaching and I as I you know players trying to influence them and you know trying to keep myself fit and then you know doing demos and I'm like going I need a you know this is and I started practicing my right foot my right foot came alright might go in what have I done what all these years I like and it wasn't like I wasn't told it wasn't like my dad didn't tell me it wasn't like you know you know other players around ex-players managers at the time friends of my dad that would be playing Don Mass and International footballer and making prick key practicing your week set weak foot you know this kind of advice and you know yeah yeah but my my left foot was alright I was I was getting away with things if you like but so and then there's there's so there's a bit of that but then there's also I guess the time where you know I guess uh there was a a different era and I guess the the knowledge that we have now in terms of looking after ourselves and and um you know using our spare time better there was you know the perhaps that couldn't be better as well and you know the certainly double sessions back then was seen as a punishment whereas now it's a norm to go you know we're gonna stay back and practice and you you know you you you again Ronaldo's a great example but I think like Ronaldo changed like what happened at Manchester United so again that I'm not putting myself anywhere near that sort of bracket but you know when the or maybe it was Canton might be Canton sorry but the story about Canton there were players were leaving United's training ground looking back and Eric Cantonar still practicing and these you're they're almost going like what's he doing you know unfortunately that year we're like ah he's he's just trying to get get a one up on us all and be being a Manchester figure.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Actually no he's not he's trying to get better and then from that like more and more people players started to stay back then all of a sudden became like right we're gonna we're gonna have another session so I I looked at that kind of I think I could have um whilst I was fit you know I I you know we trained for an hour and a half and then we had spare time and we you know we golfed and maybe there's some of the things we could have used it a bit wiser as well in our spare time so but I mean just thinking about that and the the spare time your path into football meant you came with a qualification you had a background you you had that full draft up until signing contracts I mean you had your debut before you'd signed the contract right um had you prepared did had you thought about what you would do in your life after sport no and uh I think you uh there's some point where um you're in it and you want more and you have ambitions of right I'm gonna uh I'm a whole city but I want to try and play for my United I want to play for Chelsea we've got Liverpool Scotland might even start looking at me you know that kind of thing that's the ambition because you don't want to settle the greatest spec in the world to host it in division two you know I wanted we all want to play for the best club we can you know we want to move on as I say there comes a realisation you've got to stay there for 10 years and we got relegated and so I was never you know I never went anywhere else so that's a realisation but I but I still wanted to to to kick on to that next level but um certainly in terms of like preparing myself we we used to there's again no excuses so we would PFA would come round and give us advice and you know get on this course do that course that I always thought well I'm I'm a I'm a sparky I don't need to do that but at the same time I didn't practice or keep up my my trade if you like I didn't I didn't do it.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: I just kind of well it's there if I need it.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of had that in the background but I didn't further myself or better myself in that time and it's probably something that I'm you know again using the spare time wisely I didn't and it was uh I think now there's almost no excuses for those that are in it especially with the flexibility of learning and online study and you know the payment schedules you can have etc you can take six years to pass a degree now as opposed to you know you've got to do it in three years you can't do it in three years you know it's you know I'm not saying there's no excuses but it's very flexible and but I rem I recall it's again different era different time but I used to have our spare time and one of our best friend and my best man Chris Lee and he um he Chris top bloke but he so he him him and I signed part-time contracts yeah same time and he he was um he'd been at Bradford I think maybe we released and came to Hall I c I don't know exact story but again his dad his dad was Jeff Lee the assistant coach who signed me as well um Chris uh studied to be an accountant so uh the train then you know we would um use our spare time and do whatever go golfing whatever it may be he was studying and he studied hard and you know I used to socialise with him and you know knock around with him and you know come on mate you know and he might have got you know come on mate and that you know but he didn't and he's you know and he he worked hard he still played you know he he had a good career um but he came out of it with uh you know his cancer's degree or qualification sorry and then he you know he's now chief executive of a um uh a worldwide company so that obviously doesn't mean everyone's gonna follow that path but he used his wisely now that would be my pointers for anyone in any young person or you're um involved with sport and if you do have that spare time you know um have them aspirations to 100% reach the top of the tree but you know reality is even if you do you you know how you're gonna spend your time when you stop playing so about that preparation for for life afterwards you know it's something that I know would have been in all sports and people are involved with so mate just be ready just there comes a time now you know you might have X amount of years left on in in your in your career and and for me it injury stopped it as well so I had to make some pretty quick decisions as well which were forced upon me.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah well let's move to that phase I'm interested then in in those decisions um that you had to make yeah it I mean it was an easy one in some respects because uh I I couldn't run so I mean I I got some pretty bad knee injuries I was out for maybe eighteen months or so with um you know cruciate snap ligaments usual sort of like things that you hear these days and I I got looked after it looked after well but you know I had to have a number of operations on it kept going and then but then I got fit.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: I actually got fit from that and I was back playing and then um I started my Achilles and I think you know and um I was doing the rehab coming back from that and it that's that's a pretty tough one I've got to be honest with you.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you know it's you know I'm used to pain I'm not very tough but um that was so geez that was so many I I have a feeling now coming up my calf but um so yeah so it was kind of like decided that um after my knee Years.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was out for maybe like I've played for ten, nine, nine and a half years at hull.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: For the last three I played something like ten games, maybe three or four years, I played ten games.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: I just couldn't get sick.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: But the club kept looking after me, obviously saw some value in me at some point.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of being around the place, maybe not monetary value, but just being around around the um environment and so yeah, so with with the doctors and the surgeons in the club and physio, etc., he always decided, yep, time to retire.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um if you want to retire you can.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had two years left of my contract and the club looked after me.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: I worked in the commercial department for a year, um, very grateful.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: But uh had the person who was um who was the chairman at the time, uh called me in and sort of said, How's it going?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Yes, I'm I'm quite I'm enjoying it, thank you.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was just grateful for the opportunity.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: He went, yeah, he knew me.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really, I went, Oh, I've struggling a bit with it.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: He went, right.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we had had a real good chat and he was very supportive again.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: And an opportunity came off for me to work in the the youth academy with Billy Ruther and a number of other people there, and that was another start of a my coaching journey.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess now and so when so interestingly, the bit that the club's looking after you, you've got this umbrella.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously it's a terrible thing to be forced to retire, not retiring on your own terms.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: You've got the club looking after you, they put you in the commercial, they give you an opportunity in the commercial team.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what does that mean?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: What what was that actual role or what types of stuff were you doing that yeah, they could see you weren't enjoying it, they weren't that you weren't thriving.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think the I I don't think we really knew.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was working like a you know different areas.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not I'm still not sure myself, but um go around, shake people's hand, just chat to them.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: But so that was maybe match day, like be a presence on match day, meet and greet, you know, be on the microphone a little bit, which again isn't me.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't particularly like doing that on the microphone, but I had to stand up in front of like the I guess the corporate people who had paid all the money to join to have a meal and stuff.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was me on the mic.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to today's game.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: And well I do this I've not I've done this before, I've got no skills in this.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to put my personality on it.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: But then during the week when I was working, it was uh you know, try to get sponsorship in and marketing and yeah, no background at all.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, Alright, Ryan, this is Neil from OC.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know what you just play, yeah.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: I used to play and I like make that connection and chat.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like to come in and have a chat with the commercial manager about you know maybe some sponsorship or some opportunities at the club?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that'd be great.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: So then that was my role to try and get them in to get to to like did the sale.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they yeah, I it wasn't me, but I was doing it, and uh I when he the chairman pulled me in, I was, I was like, oh no, I have a hope I haven't like shown that I'm like doing not doing my job properly, but obviously he he saw something to go, something's not quite right.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, very grateful for again.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and then like you said, that then kick starts you uh as a a coach, you're saying that was a a decade again or so of of being involved in that setup.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: How did you how did you take to coaching?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean again it was I had no like drummer playing career, like no sort of like plans on coaching or anything like that, you know, never never thought I would be, I guess.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just never thought I could do it or wanted to do it.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh it just one of them you want to stay in the game, great opportunity to stay in the game.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is the chance for me to maybe to make that next step and see where it goes.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I I didn't have any background at all in coaching, not doing anything.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was obviously some stipulation, I wasn't given a coaching role straight away, I was assistant or helping out or just being around it and with a lot of recruitment inside as well.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: But then started with my badges and you know went through that and started to, you know, quite enjoy them and passed them and did alright and got my A diploma within maybe four years or so of starting.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm now maybe mid-30s, maybe four or five years after getting the the role.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, certainly I would say the adjustment from it took me a little bit of time to adjust from now.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm back in the changer room.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's maybe a couple of times Billy is a great friend and mentor as well, uh, who's my boss.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're not a co you're not a player anymore, you know.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: You need to um you know, we're on the other side now.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: We know we need to be part of the um, you know, supporting the players we're working with, but remember you're you're the coach, right?
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, get it.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: So little things like that, and you know, we're we're very I was in a great place to be to be in a a a learning environment for me.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I guess you know, you you learn from people, you take things on board, and then you find your own path and you know, your own way of doing things, but you know, you're heavily influenced by good people at the right time, and I did I had a lot of them around me, you know, from youth and the senior level, I was able to have from different experiences.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it sounds like as a youth player aspiring to be a pro, you had a good support network, you know, through your dad and and I guess others around.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: As a player, you're at a club that I guess that loved you, that supported you, that respected you, and you know, you get value and they then wanted to help you afterwards.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: And even now in this early early phase o of of finding that your you know your life after playing, you've got good mentors, you've you've seem to have found good people.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: What I'd like to understand is you had this clear path to become a professional footballer.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: Once that had finished, what was the next goal for you?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you then or did you have a new goal in life?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was a challenge.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you s when when something's taken away from you that you don't want it, and again, it was my choice.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I was part of that decision, but I was I was in pain, you know, there was a lot of things going things that things kept snapping, basically, when I was playing football, things they weren't I wasn't tweaking things, I was snapping major ligaments.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, maybe it was a message to say, you know, your time's up.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I I got back playing a little bit and I was like, you know, when you're kind of going, I'm like three quarters of like if I'm without being able to run, well I could that I'm again could play a bit, I was a decent athlete.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I yeah, so I've I guess you you it was hard to like to come out of that to go into to nothing.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually took uh took up r running um for a period of time and started to um you know j I I got I was I'm not an I'm not um an obsessive person at all, but I would say the and for those I've got into a sport like the the the the rush that you get from the involvement um from a physical endorphin level and uh sound like I know a lot about the science.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, but I know that that's what was kicking in.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: That feeling about it going, I've trained hard, I've played hard, I've had a good game, I've had a good session, I've I've had a great game of tennis, what have you.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: I got that from running, and I ended up doing like um you know, at one point I was running maybe I'll try to put it kilometres, maybe 80 plus kilometres a week on a regular basis, like from like my early 30s, and running alright as well, you know.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I was started to like, you know, one of the ex-players, um, I'm I hope I say Bob Dennis's name right, but he was involved with a running club, a lot older at the time.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Yeah, come down, mate, get involved, you know, be good, get around it, and it really pushed us on.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I started to run it, you know, not all the time, but a few a few little competitive races just around whole and I was doing alright, I was finishing like a top ten times.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Well, I'm running pretty pretty well here.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: So then I started getting injured again.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: I had to like take away that focus, but um, yeah, so I guess from uh then the next goal, I think when you know you you get involved with coaching, you obviously you you wanna you wanna stay in the game, you know.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a volatile sport, um, you know, the nature of it, things changed, and I was again I was lucky I got there for another ten years I was involved, and I and I chose to come into uh to Australia, you know, I I made the mobiliar.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of people involved at the club that came and went as well, and I managed to stay with with Billy as well.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: So but what why why Australia?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh why move to the other side of the world?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great question.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was in a real good I had a real good job at Host City and we're we're enlightened and lived in a nice place called Swanland, which if you Google Swanland's a nice um quintessential English, sort of like village, country, country village.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it works uh when you evolve a pro club, it's quite, you know, it's quite demanding.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: The what the hours were like youth level at that time.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: We were doing, you know, I don't want any violin strings here.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're very fortunate to be involved with um pro-level and some top kids.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them play Premier League now, some of them go on to play international, but fantastic environment.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it's demanding on a young family's life.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um 50, 60 hours a week, Saturday, Sundays, you know, evening work, all the things that I know now when I'm working with the clubs are going, I get it.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know where you are, I know where you've been, I've been and done that.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I understand, it's hard.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm here to support and to work with you to try and to to get that better.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: What can we do?
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: To oh, here's some maybe a few pointers.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, no, the the um Yeah, what was what did Australia bring?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: What did you hope Australia would give to you?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, apologies, I went off track a little bit there.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, no, I think it was just it it was so far, and I'm a homebird, I I get homesick, which you know is is it's a to do this, it was so far of our comfort zone.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we needed something like it just uh you know to have that life experience.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: And with Lucy and I were, you know, obviously chatting about it for many times, for a long time, and going, if we don't do it, we'll never do it.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we were coming, we were coming for four years on our temporary visa, sponsored temporary sponsored visa, we were going home.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just do it for four years and go home.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: And get in kind of went, well, we're you know, we're here, etc.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, but I it was just one of them opportunities.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, uh maybe what happened to my dad, you know, those kind of things.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: You want to go, well, what you know, you uh maybe uh you know you get into sort of mid mid mid-life, so like I don't want to, you know, that point where you maybe reflect a bit more on what you've done or where you're going, and you go, right, well, you know, may maybe I could still be in East Yorkshire, maybe still work the whole city, maybe not, I don't know.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: Still do it, you know, and fantastic friends there and some beautiful place and what have you and that we lived.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe we could do this and do something different and bring our kids it show our kids a different way of life, you know, sh giving them giving them up opportunities as well.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the path we took, which had it's so far from like where what our plan was.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: It just opportunities came up from um a gentleman called Jeff Stanmore.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: Jeff came to um UK with a touring group, played against us at home, and I didn't you know with the next thing we I guess formed up uh connection, opportunity came up, I got to apply, had process, etc.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Got the job and sort of went from there and I'm still here now, so um and no plans to go home.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: No brilliant.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is home, this is home now.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: Australia's home.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, it's fantastic the the opportunities.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: You kept putting yourself out there throughout throughout this entire story, what I'm hearing is someone who is uh humble, right?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: You come across certainly with this sort of uh a humble you know, but you you st you still have a confidence in the way that certainly that you'd play, that you would adapt and learn and but you're prepared to give things a go.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um be it keep going to trials uh but not stopping.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Be it you know, when your dad who is so involved in football tells you or gives you advice, start do a trade and you do it.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got this work ethic, this um you know, you you put yourself through some of the the tough times with this sort of vision as to what you can do.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I quite like that whilst when I asked you the question, what did you want to achieve in that life after football?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: What what you've actually flipped it around is you've spoken about the your family, the young family, and giving them an opportunity to start with a different experience.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that sounds like that was important.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: That was that goal.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's what brought the shift to Australia.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: And given the experience you've got, you're finding you're finding your way again.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it it's certainly um yeah, I wanted to do I wanted to uh I guess give something back to the family when you know when football working at Host City was the um you know I guess I'm magnificent, but it is demanding in terms of the hours and you know um the the sacrifices my family made for me and don't go wrong, then I'm sort of going, let's go across Australia and start again and try and reset.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, if my wife well, I'm not sure she'll listen to this, but um maybe she will, but uh it hasn't always panned out that way because I've you know I came over here and got back involved with football and worked for Wolves and you know a similar kind of role and you know, but in a real good place um in the minute with with the role I've got.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I think there was there's a couple of experiences like my uh my dad, for example, has an opportunity to uh and this is probably one of the main drivers as well that um um made help help us make think a bit more about the family, that he was offered the chance to go back to uh Grimsby.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um to be sacked sorry, they went to West Brom, family moved down to Birmingham, and he uh got some opportunity to come back to Grimsby.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: They've been in Birmingham for maybe two, three years.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: My mum had a job, my brother and sister were living there, they had sort of like itself set up nicely there in terms of what they were doing.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my my my dad felt that for the family, the best thing to do was like to stay where we are and you know see what comes up.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, didn't put he put them first, and I and I look back now and kind of go, I I maybe haven't always done that, and it's probably something that I I still need to get better at um because I'm involved with football, and but you know, is trying to strike that balance.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: My kids are older now, you know, 24 and 20, my daughter's 21 in a couple of weeks.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um trying to strike that balance about being more present.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think for all of us in that busy life is always gonna be a challenge.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's something about sport as a player and as a coach that means we need to be a bit is a bit selfish.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't say to be successful in sport, it needs to take a lot of us, um, a lot of our time.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I I get it.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: I get what you mean in terms of giving back to your family.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, how do you thank them?
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's actually often, hopefully, hopefully we're loved enough, but it's just by being present.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so I I I understand that I I definitely respect what you what you're saying there.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um so let's think then about those listening, those watching who are at their point of who are at their point of career transition.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about your life and experiences that you've been through, what sort of advice or guidance would you give to them to help set them up for their second wind in life?
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I I I do uh I've occasionally have these chats with some of the young people that I know and still know, and uh, you know, you try and guide them to making them them clear decisions and and I I think it's important for people to find that sort of that mentor if you like, or that that person that maybe has you know, I'm not necessarily saying me, but somebody who's been through it as well to be able to help and and support and guide them.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, because there are people out there who will, you know, I'm I'm happy for people to get in touch with me to share a share stories or um to ask ask anything really.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I I think like having that plan, you know, st sticking to your goals to be the best sports person you can be, do do not chase that one.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's that's where you that's what you're striving for at the minute.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: But in the in the background somewhere, there's there's a life going on as well, or uh or the forefront, there should be there should be marrying up, there should be both going on.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: Where you you're thinking about where you are presently, whether you're on family, and how you know how they're sporting you and how you're sporting them.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: Also what's around the corner.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's uh again I go back to the you know, you doing courses, doing this, doing that, using the flexibility, um making contact with people, but just using your time wisely.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that'd be the one that again, if I was you know, looking back when I was playing, you know, if we train for two hours a day for the ex the whatever the extra six, seven, eight hours before we went to bed at night, it was like, you know, we'd well didn't do too much, you know, and you know, we we could have spent a lot more been a lot more productive in that time.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I I would that would be my my my point is find a good mentor, stick to your goals, but you know, have that in in your in your goal as well, that well, I need that that next thing that's gonna come, whenever that may be.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: Neil, thanks.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think those those are really good points, and I've enjoyed, I guess, from picking your journey and getting to understand your perspective on you know navigating both getting into professional sport, but then also navigating out of it as well.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think I just want to say thanks a lot for giving up your time and and sharing your story.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: No pleasure, really enjoyed it.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's brought back some good memories, um, a little tear maybe to start.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Another two memories going, oh god, this yeah, we've revoked a few things as well or poked it a little bit.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, no, I've I've really enjoyed it.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've enjoyed um sharing my story and uh say I'm I'm on LinkedIn if everybody anybody wants to get in touch, feel please feel free to to to add me and um re-great, and look and we'll put a link to to you in in LinkedIn in the show notes and um create that.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: Open for people to reach out and just have a chat.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot, Neil.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: Cool, thank you.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Stavi Podcast Solutions, and Therese from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's all from me, take it easy, until next time.