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Lulu Sunnucks - Clinical Sexologist & Psychotherapist - Swinging & Affairs · F*ck Off Fridays

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Fuck Off Fridays with your girl Liv and your girl Charlie.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: This week we have the lovely Lulu back.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Nice to have you back from Cotsport Sex Therapy.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me again.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Now we have a couple of things to clear up first.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes, don't we?
0:22
SPEAKER_03: So straight down to business.
0:25
SPEAKER_03: So I understand.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay, straight down to business.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we use some of your snippets around the things we discussed last time.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: A lot of them have gone viral.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: And some of the comments, much to your what would you say?
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Disgust?
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Horror.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Dismay.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: But I would I would like your opinion on a couple of them.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: First, if that's okay.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
0:54
SPEAKER_03: They really did pop off on social media, and we've had on our personal accounts and on the podcast account, I've had a lot of swingers follow us off the back of that.
1:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay, great.
1:03
SPEAKER_03: It was interesting.
1:03
SPEAKER_03: It's interesting.
1:04
SPEAKER_03: And what I will say is if you have a little look through on some people's social media accounts who commented, their pages look like OnlyFans.
1:12
SPEAKER_03: And I'm amazed.
1:13
SPEAKER_03: I am amazed that they're allowed to post such revealing content on Instagram on a public forum.
1:19
SPEAKER_03: And obviously, children, there's no they haven't lowered the age limit yet, have they on social media?
1:23
SPEAKER_03: But it was um I'm all here for you know you do you, but I was like, wow, some of them.
1:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: My main excuse the pun, bone of contention.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, where we were talking about free will and CNC, like not free will, free use and CNC.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, we had a fair few comments like this.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: So I think this is just called a healthy marriage.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: I think this is a healthy sex life.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: It's called marriage.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's a fair few like that, and it's not free use.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: If they can stop it anytime, it's a normal dob sum arrangement.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: What would be your take on their stance on that?
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I'm shocked and uh dismayed that anybody would think that that is represented at any kind of CNC or non-negotiated, non-consented CNC as part of a healthy marriage or a normal marriage.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're talking about rape, that's a very disgraceful thing to say or suggest.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Um the the the the point is with with CNC or ravishment fantasies, as they were formerly known as rape fantasies, they are they are very common and and as I as I said last time, but the point is that a lot of it is about the kind of the pushing off, the the the no not being heard and respected, um, but ultimately knowing that you are fully in control of it, and that one safe word or one sort of tap or s or or something that has been prearranged will stop it immediately.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: And of course, the whole you know, sort of central tenet of this kind of um scene is the aftercare, where you can be taken care of, you can have a cuddle, you can have a cup of tea, you can talk things through.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: The aftercare is such a big thing, and of course, that I'm assuming that you know your contributors there are obviously not even taking any of that into consideration.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: And and this is what we talked about last time is this very fine line between people thinking they understand BDSM kink and fetish, but it actually is sort of abuse, yeah.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, wearing kink's clothing.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: Um so that's really that's very, very alarming.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: Those comments are very alarming, yeah.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I did I did say to you like there's no point us replying because you'll just get into a tug of war over the comments, and it's just not worth it.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: But those messages in particular were a bit to me just like, oh for God's sake.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, and and if there are any husbands that wrote those comments, I would I would I would love to speak to their wives, they know where they can find me because it sounds like they could do with some help.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: On to you, my love, because you've got a couple of questions.
4:17
SPEAKER_03: I do.
4:17
SPEAKER_03: So I mentioned to you beforehand, someone at work, I mentioned that you were mentioned that you were coming back, coming back on the couch, yeah, and they recommended a couple of programmes to me to watch.
4:26
SPEAKER_03: Super.
4:27
SPEAKER_03: One of them was Open House, okay, which is on channel four, which obviously I mentioned to you before.
4:32
SPEAKER_03: Yes, which is all about people who want to open up their relationships, guided by a sex therapist in a safe environment.
4:40
SPEAKER_03: And the other one was, and I don't know if you've seen it, it's on Amazon Prime, it's called Swingers.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's I don't think I have seen Swingers, but I've seen Open House.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: I love it, I love that.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: It's a great show.
4:48
SPEAKER_03: Swingers is more of like a documentary film, and it's about a chap who he's in his 70s and he's like, I just love sex.
4:54
SPEAKER_03: And he runs a private members' club in rugby, I think it is.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think I have.
5:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's quite old, yeah.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, it's like an old sort of community hall type situation with lots of different rooms.
5:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:06
SPEAKER_03: Yes, I have.
5:07
SPEAKER_03: They have a home tub, there's beds, they call it the you know, they have a playroom, and then they have like actual rooms where people can stay.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Um isn't it lovely and social?
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Everybody really has a great time there, don't they?
5:16
SPEAKER_01: Is there a buffet out?
5:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or you can eat, as it were.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: Two types of buffets available.
5:22
SPEAKER_03: Salmon on a mirror.
5:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:27
SPEAKER_03: Um, but it just got me thinking, I think it'd be really interesting.
5:31
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, one programme is about swinging, the other one is about open open relationships.
5:35
SPEAKER_03: Maybe if you start with open house, because that's one that you've seen.
5:38
SPEAKER_03: I guess from a um if someone were looking to open up their relationship, yeah.
5:44
SPEAKER_03: How would someone go about that in a in a safe way?
5:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll I'll just maybe um sort of define what the difference is, if if you're happy for me to do that between sort of swinging and open and poly and relationship anarchy and ethical non-monogamy and consensual non-monogamy and liquid love and there's yes, yes, there's a lot to it.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: So the main difference is that swinging involves the couple.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you do it's something that you do for fun, for pleasure, together.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, open relationships, poly polyamorous relationships, um uh ethical non-monogamy, uh, liquid love, all the different constellations um of relationships on that side.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: Also um like cuckolding, hot wifing, all of those kind of things, they are generally considered on the sort of the on the open side and are and are and can be things that you do alone on your own.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but sort of still maybe being in a in a sort of primary relationship is what we would call it.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: So, but uh it can look like anything.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, in an open relationship, you might be emotionally um monogamous to one partner, you might be financially monogamous to one partner, you might be sexually monogamous to one partner, you might be, you know, it it totally depends on the constellation, how you want, how you want that to look.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, you've then got to think about your metamores, who are kind of if you are it if you have two people that are sleeping with one person, those two people may or may not know each other.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: They may want to know each other, they might not want to.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's lots and lots of different ways that this looks.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: But swinging, yes, generally is done as a couple.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you might have something that we could it's on a spectrum.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: So you might have what's called a soft swap.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: So you might go to a party or an event, um, and or I mean there are cruises, there are all sorts of things that take place now.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you might just be engaging in a bit of flirting, you might be engaged in kissing or oral, and then you might go all the way to a full swap.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Um the likelihood of swingers kind of finding a quad situation, like a like a where where you get this perfect match of another couple.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I don't want us to sort of get stuck on the notion of this being a heteronormative um setup.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: It could be wife, wife, husband, husband, it could be obviously any kind of iteration of of sexuality.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the likelihood of finding like that perfect quad is is quite tricky and it tends, it's quite rare.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: It's a bit of a unicorn actually in the swinging world.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there are ways of navigating around that.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Um but I would say to answer your question, to come right back to what your question was, the best way to navigate it is through um a lot of open communication, as you might expect.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: But I would say I would suggest doing it low and slow.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is low stakes to start with and slow.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: So if you are interested in opening up your relationship or swinging, a good way to sort of test whether or not you might be um secure enough to handle what potentially is coming downstream at you is to just experiment with going out with your partner to a dinner party or a party and watching them flirt.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: So test the wall.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: So that would be low and slow.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: That would be the way to do it.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Test that, see what comes up in you.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: If you get any sense of excitement or any sort of like, oh, oh, I'm feeling it now.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's sort of like, oh, actually, yeah, I might quite like that.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Then you might then take that to the next stage and sort of think about what you might like your swinging experience to look like.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: And you would then start thinking about rules and boundaries and you know, your hard no's and you know, your your maybes, etc.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: If you go out and do that and you get this very uncomfortable feeling of jealousy, um, and something is really stirring up in you, and it causes a bit of an argument, you know that you are absolutely nowhere near ready.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: It's probably also a good idea to think about maybe some of the reasons why people think about swinging and opening up.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: So some people might be in um, I mean, it could be for lots of reasons.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Maybe people do want to have more sex.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: I think that's generally the assumption when they think when people think about um swingers and and people that are in open relationships.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it also could be a political move.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: It could be like that they're politically progressive or liberal and actually they're kind of you know rejecting this sort of constrictive monogamy that seems to kind of be compulsory for most of us.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: The majority of people don't even ask themselves if they want to consider anything different to just being in a dyad.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, so some people really, and that's what I was talking about, that relationship anarchy.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: For some people, it's almost like a sort of the personal is political.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, it could be exploring a fantasy, it could sometimes be because there's a sexual desire discrepancy.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: So one person wants more sex than the other, and the one with a lower desire is quite happy to go and watch their partner getting their rocks off and actually get some pleasure out of that.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: We call that phenomenon um conversion.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: So compersion is seeing your partner engaging sexually and actually you getting pleasure out of that.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of that's where you would want to be aiming for.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: So that wouldn't be the same as cuckolding?
11:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh no, so cuckolding is um usually involves sort of an element of humiliation and sort of sometimes sissification, but yes, it's generally like the humiliation and the degradation and the feelings of being not worthy.
11:47
unknown: Okay.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: Whereas hot wifing is a little bit more like my wife's so hot, she goes Zara set and does other.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of difference.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, and hot wifing, then you don't necessarily do it in front of your husband, you might film it for his pleasure.
12:02
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
12:02
SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned liquid love as well earlier.
12:05
SPEAKER_03: Yes, made me think of liquid luck from Harry Potter.
12:07
SPEAKER_03: Sorry to sorry to degrade Harry Potter.
12:10
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
12:12
SPEAKER_03: What what what is that?
12:13
SPEAKER_01: It's just another term that people um use for kind of open poly ethical non-monogamy, consensual non-monogamy.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: It's just another um uh stepping off the relationship escalator, that's another one I've heard.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's lots of different uh different phrases for it.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: Do you know one question I will ask, um, just to clarify from the last episode we had you on, when we spoke about boundaries code words, yeah.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: When you said edges, what did you mean?
12:44
SPEAKER_00: I think you said you know there's edges or boundaries in I couldn't quite understand what you meant by uh what sort of finding your edges.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh well in the in relation to kink or yeah, um, so finding or f figuring out what your edges are would be sort of figuring out how much you're comfortable with.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: And then when something happens and you get a little bit of a like, oh, it's almost like you physically come up against something.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: You physically come up a bit of something uncomfortable, it feels a bit awkward, it feels something comes up for you in that sort of bottom-up sense.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, that would that's probably what I was meaning, is that you sort of it's good to know where your edges are, what your edges are, particularly if we're thinking about open and um swinging, actually, because you know, you might go into um a swinging say event, or you you might sort of decide that that's what you're going to do.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: You might go on field or fet life and sort of like try and find a unicorn or find somebody that's going to complement your relationship.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: You may think that you've boundried yourself and that you know what your boundaries are, but actually until you're in it, you don't, which is why ongoing communication and aftercare, yet again that word, checking in with one another afterwards, having the conversation and saying, actually, I was really not very happy with you doing that, but I didn't realise that it was going to make me feel like this.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: I'd be happy in future for us to kind of just slow down a little bit.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: And with swinging, you you can only go as fast as the slowest participant.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: You must you know you must never be open or swinging under duress.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: So you must go at the pace of your partner, and if your partner is finding it tricky, you have to come right back again and then try and build up again.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, and one question I have got is it a situation where because everyone knows it maybe well not everyone knows, but people know pampas grasp was a sign.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: Keys in the bowl.
14:48
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, keys in the bowl, yes.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
14:51
SPEAKER_00: I think we know it to be true.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: I think it it well, I it it definitely is true because I think people quite like to use, like to riff off of that and to create and the thing is with swingers and and people that are in that sort of conscious community, let's say, um they um they do like dress up, they do like that sort of kitsch thing.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, the pampas grass, the pineapples in the trolley, the keys in the bowl.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
15:18
SPEAKER_03: If someone were to think about opening up their relationship, how important do you think you you've touched on communication?
15:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
15:25
SPEAKER_03: How important do you think it is that they are guided by someone like yourself?
15:29
SPEAKER_03: And is it something that you would recommend?
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, I would.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: I think that there are always more questions at the beginning, of course.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: People have no idea what to expect.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Some people need guidance in terms of where to find um good places where they're going to get taken care of, and there's not going to be any um anything sort of murky going on.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yes, there's always that sort of guidance and hand holding um that a therapist, uh a sex therapist um can do.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: And that is something that I do quite a lot with clients, is kind of uh we start with I I always start with the why.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: So when a couple come in and say, we're thinking about opening up, we're thinking about going to a swingers event, um, you know, what do we need to know?
16:13
SPEAKER_01: The I rather than sort of going into well, this, this, and this, I say, well, why?
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't know your why, if there are any kind of little cracks there, they are going to be blown apart by the first event.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: And so we've got to do this slowly.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: We've got to visualize what we want this to look like.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: And I let the clients kind of really fantasize about how they would like this to work.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: And then we start contracting, then we start negotiating, then we start looking at places, then we start thinking about doing it low and slow, testing the waters, getting them to come back, having a debrief, a bit like open house, exactly like that.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: So that's what I do with my couples.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's what I do.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so a bit of a rogue question, off but just I'm sure hopefully you won't mind asking it.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: What sort of couples, what sort of people are drawn to it?
17:04
SPEAKER_00: That's the immediate question.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: But is there normally something that's gone on that makes people lean into it?
17:12
SPEAKER_01: Um not really.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh it really it really depends.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the people that succeed at it are the really super secure, open, honest, transparent uh couples and um individuals that operate with integrity and honesty.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Those and and they are wanting to just have some novelty.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: They're just maybe one likes slightly differ a different type of sex or a different kind of sex than the other, but they're so madly in love with with each other and so secure with one another in terms of that emotional monogamy, um, that they don't they don't they want to to navigate that together.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: So it's usually well, it works for very secure couples.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: So though those are the people that that that do it, and as I said, the sort of progressive liberal conscious community are also very much, you know, um into it, I suppose.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Um age-wise, uh you know, the sort of demographics, it really crosses all classes, all ages, all you know, races and genders.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: It's yeah.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: What's interesting, however, I would say, is that what I notice is that with gay gay couples that I see, uh, they spend more time negotiating monogamy.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: There's more of an assumption that we will be open, which I find fascinating.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Whereas a heteronormative couple, they're negotiating opening up.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: But what's in but what I really take from that is that a lot of hetero couples get together without first establishing what their boundaries and their and their contract is around monogamy.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's not until somebody cheats or somebody sends a DM to somebody or somebody l touches somebody at a dinner party in the wrong way, and then the other part partner sort of has this big reaction to it, or like following your ex on social media, or like, you know, a lot of these things are really good to navigate at the early stages, but for some reason we don't want to.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: We find it very difficult to sort of say what for our to ask for what we want and to be really clear about what our edges are.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: What I notice in the gay community is that they are really good at that, yeah, and they're more often navigating what how the monogamy is going to look for them.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's just of how we've grown up though, in different generations, how we cope with things?
19:49
SPEAKER_00: Because I would actively enter into a relationship thinking, well, I'm just gonna date this person, yeah, and I'm not gonna think about anything else.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: I it wouldn't enter my mind to negotiate.
20:02
SPEAKER_03: No, me neither.
20:02
SPEAKER_03: I would think almost that once you're you've you know agreed you're exclusive with one other until that point, you know, early days, I think a lot of people like you know, will date multiple people, but I think once you're locked in, and I'd say maybe that is you kind of conform to what you've witnessed with your own parents, with other people who are influential in your life, and it is deemed the norm.
20:26
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, it's not something that I would internalized, it's not something that I would um question.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: But we all have different internalized and inherited sexual scripts.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, for for one person, they might be super happy and can and content for their partner to watch porn, they might be super content and secure for their partner to be in touch with their ex.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: They might be super happy if their partner really is quite openly flirting at um social events, but for other people that is extremely activating and it's not okay, and it causes problems because people have not discussed it.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, I've got a really great workbook that I use with with clients.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: I tend to use it after an affair has been discovered or disclosed.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: So it's part of that kind of betrayal trauma work that I do.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: And it's a whole sort of if if the couple want to stay together and they do want to be monogamous, yeah, it's a it's a it's a completely brand new contract that we go through.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's sort of 40 questions which are are quite uncomfortable for a lot of people.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I ask them both, you know, how would you feel if this happened?
21:39
SPEAKER_01: How would you feel if this happened?
21:40
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Oh, I don't know.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: I haven't thought, I don't think I'd really like that.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, of course, then they're very like you were saying, you know, that very unlikely to have those awkward conversations in the beginning, but sort of wonder why not, really.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: We should be doing that.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if this is part and parcel of the sort of sex and relationship education that we're.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Not having at school.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's much more about kind of risk like STDs and getting pregnant and reproduction and biology, rather than all of this stuff of like what feels okay, what isn't okay.
22:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was listening to something the other day, and people saying that in this maybe a nice segue onto it, but in Europe everyone seems to be a lot more liberal.
22:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, um sex clubs are much more of a thing, you know.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: Typically, uh, I don't know, like not generalised, but Germans and yeah, Berlin.
22:29
SPEAKER_03: The sex scene is bad in Berlin.
22:32
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, yeah.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: So it seems to be that early on people are educated in a slightly different way.
22:38
SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, my kind of general thoughts are that Brits are maybe a little bit more prudish.
22:43
SPEAKER_03: I guess from your perspective, what do you think the difference is between how people are brought up in the UK and like around the whole to me, sex feels very taboo and behind closed doors versus our friends in Europe?
22:59
SPEAKER_01: Totally, absolutely.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: I think there's I mean, even if you think about um how, say, let's let's generalise for a second, but think about the kind of Scandinavians and the sort of northern, northern, other northern European countries, you know, the whole concept of nudity, soreness, people being okay with their bodies, there's no shame about body parts.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's there's a lot less shame and taboo in discussing these things.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: I think they're generally a lot more relaxed about it.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's got to be about what the focus is when you think about sex.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: And I, and as I was saying just then, it's if it's all focused on kind of risk, you know, don't get pregnant, don't get pregnant, don't get pregnant.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: Oh, now you've got like a short window, do get pregnant, like don't get an STI.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: If you have sex, you're gonna get an STI.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: If it's that, you know, it's and of course, religion plays a big big factor as well.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: So there could be some differences with with different cultures depending on whether or they're more secular, I guess.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh yeah, you're absolutely right.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh you know, we do have a thriving sex uh sex scene in in London, of course.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, we're we're we're pretty open, but I think um if you find it, if you find those those places, but um yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it?
24:13
SPEAKER_01: And I think class also, you know, this whole sort of stiff upper lip of oh, we don't talk about that.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, God couldn't possibly, you know, it's all a bit but it's all going on, it goes on everywhere, it's universal.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: It's um but it is funny, and then of course the whole boarding school thing of people not having any privacy and it all being a bit sort of shamed if you masturbate or touch yourself and then you end up having sexual function problems down the line, and it's yeah, it's a whole it's a whole thing.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: I think that we are pretty behind though.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're pretty restricted and constricted.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: So if we just I hate this term, circle back why only use it um to a brief chat we were having about you know affairs, and you said that you've got a 40 question recontracting recontracting monogamy after an affair.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: Um can we talk more about that?
25:03
SPEAKER_00: What's normally the situation with the couples?
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Are they both willing, etc.?
25:08
SPEAKER_00: Just do a bit of breakdown on that.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um a fair betrayal is um trauma work.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: Um and the the the the f first and first and foremost is work is understanding whether the betrayed partner is willing to or feels that eventually they can work through it and they can not forgive and forget, but they can move on and want to stay with the partner.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: So once we've established that, if the answer is yes, I want to stay with this person, we then have to be moving slowly at that betrayed partner's pace towards some acceptance of what has happened.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: Now that is not forgiveness, that's not forgetting, but it's an acceptance that what has happened has happened.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: And in some cases, it can strengthen the relationship and it can be better, you know, because an affair tends to be as a result of something not happening, or the person who has had the affair feels that they are not being their needs are not being met in some way.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: That is not blaming the other partner by any stretch of the imagination.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: But what it is, it it means that that person found somebody where they could be a version of themselves, whether it's an old version of themselves or an imagined version of themselves.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Esther Perel talks about an aliveness that happens in an affair.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: But it's devastating, it's traumatic, it's absolutely horrendous for the betrayed partner.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: And of course, the um what we need to see from the person that's had the affair is continued consistent remorse, accountability, apology, and a real willingness to do absolutely anything pretty much that it takes in order to kind of you know fix.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's a that takes a lot of work, it's a lot of rebuilding of trust, and trust is built through kind of consistent behaviour, small little acts consistently done.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's not just worked and say, I'll get over it.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: What I tend to see are where the affair the betrayed partner wants some kind of public flogging, they want to enlist um support from friends and family to all join with them in this kind of um sort of punishment, this punitive kind of behavior, which feels so natural, like you just you want that person to suffer the same way that you have been humiliated and made to suffer.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: It's it's which I I also I understand that, but and there might be space for a little bit of that, but kind of you've at some point, if you're gonna stay together, where do you draw the line?
28:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, that that you have to at some point say, okay, enough.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: And what I notice is that well, what I suggest to clients is that when they come with this at the when there's been a disclosure or a discovery, sometimes they haven't, the person hasn't been honest, but somebody's found out, is to is for the betrayed partner to perhaps only tell a f a handful of people.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: I think that the inclination is to tell everybody because you want everybody to be on your side, you want to garner as much support, as I said as possible.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: That can actually sort of not do you so many favours down the line.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it's best just to tell a few key people, yeah, go and see a therapist, work through it.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because what I've noticed is that actually a few months into the work, say three or four months down the line, it's a little bit like grief.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: The the support system and the sort of intensity of that empathy tends to die away, and the betrayed partner stuff suddenly starts to feel a bit alone in it.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: So if you don't have that from the very beginning, you kind of you learn to adjust a little bit quicker.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's what I notice.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not the same for everybody, but what I I I do I do see that that kind of tends to erode and dilute after time, and then the affair, the the betrayed partner is suddenly just feeling all those real lonely feelings of like, well, nobody cares, and they sort of think I have to tell somebody else now, or I haven't told his best mate, so I need to, you know, it's almost like they're trying to kind of get that reaction again because that feels good, and it's totally understandable.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, as I always say to people, all behaviour makes sense with enough information, you can understand why people are doing it, but sometimes it doesn't serve, so yeah, it's a lot of work.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, as I say, it is trauma work.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, but important to know before you come to therapy: are you able to do you think you are able to move past it?
30:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and for people who maybe don't want to, yep.
30:20
SPEAKER_03: So they've made the decision that it's absolutely one and done.
30:24
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
30:25
SPEAKER_03: Which I I have a lot of respect for people who decide that they do want to work through things.
30:31
SPEAKER_03: I really take my hat off to them.
30:33
SPEAKER_03: And I think everything you mentioned about some people like to shout it from the rooftops.
30:37
SPEAKER_03: I think the challenge with that is that other people then bring their own judgment and they're then like, why are you getting back together with them?
30:44
SPEAKER_03: And sometimes things are better behind closed doors.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: There can be shame both ways.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: Shame if you leave, shame if you stay.
30:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, 100%.
30:50
SPEAKER_03: Um, but for the people that do choose to walk away and it's not for them.
30:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:56
SPEAKER_03: What if someone like that came to see you?
31:00
SPEAKER_03: How would you work with them to help them work through that trauma?
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think what it I would be trying to set them up in as better best a way as I can for the next chapter.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd be trying really hard to make sure that they're not carrying any legacy of that one person into the next relationship because that can be really limiting and it could be really sad to think that that the the next person that you're going to be with is going to kind of get tarred with that brush.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: It's not everybody, not everybody cheats.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it it everybody has different motivations for cheating.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Some people do, some people don't.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: Some some people find it genuinely abhorrent, and there are lots of men and women that will, lots of men and women that won't.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And you don't want to find yourself in a really functional, healthy relationship where somebody completely adores you that's kind of feeling all the shadows of what's happened before.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: So that is what I would be doing.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And it I would be working on kind of trying to create, get back to that secure attachment style where it's basically I'm going into this eyes wide open and I'm going in trusting.
32:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise you end up punishing the next person.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: And they haven't done anything.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, no.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think just to kind of bring it round to the you know, opening opening relationships and thinking about how the majority of relation of dyads and couples, it's sort of like compulsory monogamy.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, the law is set up, taxes are set up, um, everything, even tenancy agreements are set up for couples, hotels, travel.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: If you think about it, it's impossible for an open if you've got a a triad or a quad, sometimes it's really difficult to even think about traveling together, or you know, all of that stuff is tricky.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: So we're definitely geared up for coupledom.
32:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: And so that forces some people into that compulsory monogamy, and potentially they're not supposed to be in that.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: So they might be better off in an open relationship, they might be better as a poly, living as a poly person.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, but of course, they tend to well, the the partners of these individuals find out the hard way because they can't stay faithful.
33:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: But perhaps they shouldn't be forced into that in the first place, one might argue.
33:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Could I just ask?
33:28
SPEAKER_00: Because it's probably a tricky one, but I think people will want to know.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: In your opinion, people that you deal with, what would be the divide?
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Would it be more men or more women or balanced?
33:41
SPEAKER_00: What having affairs?
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's 50-50.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: It is.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of people will go, it's men.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: No.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: But I just wanted to know it's 50-50.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: And I I I also uh see, I don't know, I'm not sure what's going on physiologically or hormonally.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: I think women are generally a bit more sexually fluid.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do see um, I don't know what percentage it would be, but if the if the wife has cheated, there is every likelihood that it could be cheated with another woman.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes, as opposed to a man around the forties.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's interesting.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, particularly mid-yeah, mid-40s, mid-40s to mid-50s.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: I see that.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Do we know do we know why?
34:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering whether or not there's something around that kind of what we call the middle passage, you know, that midlife stage where yeah, you're just sort of re reenvisaging your life or re-evaluating your life, or sort of wondering and being a bit curious.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think that can, you know, just sort of looking at like your next half of your life and thinking, like, what do I want?
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Maybe now's the time to explore.
35:00
SPEAKER_03: Re-evaluate.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I do think that women are I it's this is probably a massive generalization, but I do think women are more sexually fluid.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, more moving spectrum.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: Just from having friends in 40s and 50s, they seem to care a lot less.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: And just my opinion, I wonder if you you do get to a point where you can relate to another woman so so much easier on so many things.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: And you don't have to explain so many things.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: Why not?
35:29
SPEAKER_01: And also, you know, if girls have been, say, a girl's boarding school or a girls' school and had some sort of like formative um sexual experience with another another girl, and then that's kind of become dead and buried because they've just been again channelled through into this sort of, you know, or whether there was a an a perception that the family would shame them or it wasn't okay, or religion or culture, or something kind of dictated that you know, you get get get married and you have children, um, then I suppose they're going to kind of go off down the heteronormative route.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, and um then that when they get the chance, they think, well, life's too short, I'm gonna try something, and then actually love it and never look back.
36:13
SPEAKER_03: Okay, interesting.
36:15
SPEAKER_03: Might be an interesting, um, a good opportunity.
36:18
SPEAKER_03: We had a form submission.
36:20
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be an agony aunt.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is an agony aunt.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: This is um so yeah, we okay.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: So form submission.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: Just for your purely your opinion, okay.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to give advice, not like an agony aunt.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so male.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think my friend is a sex addict.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: I have a friend who I think is a sex addict.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: He's a serial dater, always seems to have multiple women on the go, and always seems to be jumping from situation tip situation ship to situation ship.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: Hazling a guess his body count must be well over a hundred.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: I will caveat the above by saying that while spinning all of these women, he also has a partner.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: Only it seems as though they're in an open relationship and she doesn't know it.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And I don't feel as though it's my place or responsibility to tell her and don't want to get caught up in the drama and risk damaging my friendship with him.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: Monogamy isn't for everyone, but it doesn't feel right for this part for his partner has no idea of his ongoings and other people have been hurt along the way too, thinking they were in a relationship with him only to find out they're not the only one.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: I have two questions.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Can you help a sex addict if they don't want to be helped?
37:36
SPEAKER_00: And what's the right thing for me to do as an onlooker?
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Great question.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, first of all, the term sex addiction, porn addiction are very, very controversial in sex therapy.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: So we do not use the word addiction when it comes to sex or porn.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: We use out-of-control behaviour, we use compulsive behaviour, problematic behaviour, but it's the whole um sort of treatment and work with sex and porn addiction is similar to that of like a disordered eating.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: So you you can't apply really a 12-step addiction uh model to porn, sex or food for the reason that it feels wrong to deprive somebody or to tell somebody to abstain from completely from those behaviours.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Whereas something like gambling, booze, drugs, you know, to abstain is is something, you know, is is reasonable and obviously mm makes life a lot better for a lot of people that are in recovery.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's the first thing I'd say is let's try and use a different word for it.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: So I'd say perhaps it sounds like the behaviour, and this is of course um objective, isn't it?
39:03
SPEAKER_01: So we're actually not dealing with the person who is doing the behavior, who is carrying on like this.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: So the in answer to the first question, um no, you can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped because the person needs to come to the therapist and say, My behavior is out of control, it's ruining my relationships, it's ruining my this, this, and this.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: I can't, I can't leave the house because I'm so addicted, you know, I'm so addicted to porn, I can't stop using porn, I can't stop sleeping around.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Help, then yes, absolutely we can do that.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: But just because somebody objectively on the outside is saying his behaviour is problematic, no, that's it's what they deem it to be.
39:44
SPEAKER_03: It's what they deem it to be it's got to be subjective.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, whether or not somebody should sort of get involved, I think that's a bit tricky.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: That sounds a bit tricky, dodgy, dangerous ground.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: I think that um these things do tend to have a habit of coming out in the wash, and you know, I'm sure that the partner is probably more aware than this individual thinks that they are, you know.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: I think people do have a bit of a gut feeling, yeah, but you know, behaviour changes, there's all sorts of giveaways, really.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: So it's probably only a matter of time before something is is exposed, and um, it'll probably be for the best because if that person is not consenting to this behaviour, then they will hopefully find somebody that's more aligned with their values.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know, uh I it's not for me to say if it's problematic or not, it depends on what the client thinks.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: It's not my judgment.
40:40
SPEAKER_03: Out of interest live, what would you what would you do in this situation?
40:45
SPEAKER_03: So it's saying like would you would you tell the person, would you not?
40:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm interested here if I was the friend of them.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: It's it's a tricky one.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: Would because are you asking me, am I the friend of the person who's doing this?
41:03
SPEAKER_00: And do I know their partner well enough?
41:07
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
41:08
SPEAKER_03: It's all circumstantial, isn't it?
41:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: So because I have been in a couple of situations where you know I've I've said to someone, look, I'm a no judgment zone.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: But I will hold you accountable.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: I will say, I don't think this is right.
41:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: But I won't, I will still support someone.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
41:30
SPEAKER_00: I will still have my view, but I'm not gonna force someone to go down a route that they're not gonna go down, you know what I mean?
41:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think it's it makes it most of the time, depending on your personality, especially me, if someone tells not relating to affairs and things, obviously, but if someone tells me not to do something, I dig my heels in.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Can I do it anyway?
41:54
SPEAKER_00: I do.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: So it it really depends on the person you're dealing with.
41:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: And you know, if it was a if it was someone I knew that was doing it to a friend of mine, I'd probably have a few stronger words, yeah.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: But it's it's a tricky line to start.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: It is.
42:09
SPEAKER_03: I was thinking, like, not my circus, not my monkeys to an extent.
42:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:13
SPEAKER_03: Like you don't want to involve yourself in someone else's relationship and judge and all of those things.
42:20
SPEAKER_03: However, when it happened to me, and I have spoken about it on the podcast, um, when it happened to me, friends of mine who were witness to it told me, and I am so thankful that they did, but that was because my partner was had lied about it.
42:35
SPEAKER_03: Right.
42:36
SPEAKER_03: And they came to me and said, Look, a few people have spoken to me and said that they witnessed this rather public act.
42:41
SPEAKER_03: Oh, and and you know, and they said she was like, I have spoken to everybody who was there individually whilst they were sober, and I've asked them, and she was like, and only at that point did I come to you because I wanted to be sure, and I thought that you didn't know.
42:58
SPEAKER_03: But even still, when she told me, she just said, What do you know about this night?
43:02
SPEAKER_03: And so I gave my version of events.
43:04
SPEAKER_03: What did he say as by way of follow-up?
43:07
SPEAKER_03: So she established first what did I know before she dropped the bomb and did it in a really caring and considerate way, and was like, I'm not here to judge you, but if you decide that you want out, there is a bedroom at our house for you.
43:22
SPEAKER_03: Newly, newlywed couple as well, I will say.
43:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I live great friends.
43:26
SPEAKER_03: I lived with them for three months, they were amazing.
43:28
SPEAKER_03: The dog came too.
43:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they're like, it's fine, the space for the dog.
43:32
SPEAKER_03: They were like, we will support you however you want.
43:34
SPEAKER_03: If you decide that you want to stay together, then we will support you.
43:37
SPEAKER_03: They're like, we will find it difficult.
43:38
SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Yeah, and I think that's the hard thing with telling too many people.
43:42
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think there's a way, if you are going to tell someone, if you think they're not aware, I I think there's a it's a very sensitive way to do it.
43:52
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
43:52
SPEAKER_03: And I think you have to then be willing to support that person.
43:56
SPEAKER_03: Or people, if they do decide to stay together, I think you have to then be willing to support them.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: Thereafter.
44:01
SPEAKER_03: You can't just throw in the grenade and walk away.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think you've I think that sounds like it was handled really beautifully, and I'm really sorry to hear what happened to you.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: And I I think all of us as humans would want to know, wouldn't we?
44:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, nobody it's the it's the humiliation and the thought that everybody else knew.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: That's part of the pain.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: It's a big part of the pain, isn't it?
44:28
SPEAKER_01: And how could people not have told me and did and and knew?
44:32
SPEAKER_01: And then it's you start calling into question friendships, which you need the most at that point.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: So I think on a human level, of course, we all want to know, but it's really tricky.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: You've got to be so sure of what you're sort of saying or what you've seen, or and also understand, you know, if we think about the um you know, the the swinging and the open relationships, which we were talking about before, we don't know if this is an an arrangement.
45:02
SPEAKER_03: Exactly, yeah.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it could be a don't ask, don't tell policy that's that's in place.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm sure that then the friend sort of saying wouldn't then blow something up if it's already, you know, but I don't know, it's not your business really.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: It's tricky, isn't it?
45:20
SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I don't know.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: I tricky.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: I also will say I think if you are going to pull the rug out from under someone, just in general, you have to be squeaky fucking clean yourself.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: This is true.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah because no one wants to be preached to, especially by someone who has no right to do the preaching.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: So I'm always mindful.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, if I'm gonna give someone advice on this, where am I coming from?
45:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: Because if I have no leg to stand on, then I'm keeping my mouth shut.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: That's the only thing I'll say.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: I I I totally agree.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: And I and I think in your situation, that sort of lovely non-judgmental, like, we won't judge you if you stay or go, but we're here for you and we'll support you, yeah, and we'll try and remain sort of neutral with the other party.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's really, really such a mature way of handling it.
46:13
SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of people are very quick to get the pitchforks out.
46:15
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
46:16
SPEAKER_03: I will say.
46:16
SPEAKER_03: I think um, and it's and it's really difficult to navigate until you've everyone always says, Oh, I'd never stay with someone, oh, I'd never do that if they cheated on me.
46:24
SPEAKER_03: Genuinely, I think until you have been in that situation, the emotional turmoil that comes afterwards, if you've got somebody begging for you back, it's really confusing, and it's a really difficult time.
46:37
SPEAKER_03: So, again, I think I was really lucky with the people I had around me at that time who really created a safe space for me.
46:44
SPEAKER_03: And um, it's my friend Jen actually, who runs Ad Squirrel.
46:48
SPEAKER_03: Shout out, Jen.
46:48
SPEAKER_03: We love her, but she was very much like, feel the feelings, and at first I didn't really understand what that meant.
46:54
SPEAKER_03: She was like, You are gonna feel like you're in a washing machine for a long time, and it's really confusing, and yeah, there isn't a start a pack on how to deal with it.
47:02
SPEAKER_03: And you mentioned the word grief earlier, and I think any long-term relationship that you've been in, you break up that it's hard, but especially grief, yeah, and I think having someone cheat on you, it it's it's just really confusing, and you're like, oh, you know, and I understand when people have children and they want to stay together because it's it's easier, yeah.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: Merged finances, children, it's very complicated for people to extricate themselves, yeah.
47:31
SPEAKER_03: So that's what I don't I just don't judge anybody anymore.
47:34
SPEAKER_03: I just think you know, be there for those people and support them however they need.
47:38
SPEAKER_03: And like you said, it doesn't stop after three months.
47:41
SPEAKER_03: No, you know, it it can raise its head in strange ways three years later.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: And I know it's like a it's like I I would describe it as a complex grief.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: So come so if we think about um death, you know, we have we work through grief.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: That's where, say, for example, an elderly grandparent who has had an illness or something, it's kind of unexpected, or at a certain age of life it kind of happens.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: That's grief, and there's a whole, you know, there's we we do lots of work around that.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: Complex grief is if there's say like a sudden or very violent death, for example.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: It's a slightly more kind of um more intense way of working with with clients.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: But I'm thinking about with the affair, actually, is that that you've you it's a it's complex because while the affair is going on, you are dealing with something called ambiguous loss.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: So the person is there, but they're not there.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they are somewhere else, their mind is somewhere else, their value, their intent, their focus is on with somebody else, their allegiances and alliances are with somebody else.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: So they're there in person having dinner at the dinner table, but not there.
48:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:53
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, if you do then break up, you're then dealing with the actual loss, the real loss.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, the f the full loss of it.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: So it's really intense traumatic work.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: So not to be taken lightly.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: And I my hat always goes off to people that decide to stay.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, equally with people that decide to go, because they are like really fully bounded.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: It's a hard no for me.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm out, and off they go.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: And brilliant.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: But equally, I understand the nuance and the complications, particularly for women, feeling that they've maybe stepped out of the workplace, they don't have their own funds, the children are very vulnerable.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: There's lots of reasons why people stay.
49:36
SPEAKER_03: It must be scary to navigate, I think.
49:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if you're not financially independent.
49:39
SPEAKER_03: Oh, terrifying.
49:40
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I just I just had a dog to take responsibility for, which was not a not a problem.
49:45
SPEAKER_03: We love Brin.
49:46
SPEAKER_03: But it was interesting when you said as well about some people will almost like rally everyone and um get the pitchforks out.
49:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and almost trying to humiliate that other person.
49:56
SPEAKER_03: The public flogging.
49:57
SPEAKER_03: For me, I felt humiliated.
49:58
SPEAKER_03: I couldn't have thought of anything worse than other people.
50:02
SPEAKER_03: Right.
50:02
SPEAKER_03: Almost I felt embarrassed in some ways.
50:05
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's why lots of people I remember even like months later, they were like, You guys, you guys together or not?
50:11
SPEAKER_03: Because I've not seen you post anything on social media.
50:13
SPEAKER_03: And it was only that I just let people find out through like beating the jungle drum.
50:17
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I know everyone's different.
50:18
SPEAKER_03: Everyone's different.
50:19
SPEAKER_03: I couldn't have thought of anything worse than everybody everyone knowing.
50:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so people immediately say, Oh, well, why?
50:26
SPEAKER_03: What happened?
50:26
SPEAKER_03: You know, what what were you not you're not doing?
50:29
SPEAKER_03: Did you not love each other?
50:31
SPEAKER_03: And it almost then becomes a judgment in a different way.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or people feel sorry for you, and I hate that.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: I can see why you took that part.
50:39
SPEAKER_03: That's exactly.
50:40
SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna bow out quietly.
50:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks so much.
50:43
SPEAKER_03: Gracefully privately, yeah, yeah.
50:44
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
50:45
SPEAKER_03: What a cheery note.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on again.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: You're very welcome.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: It's such a pleasure.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: And thank you.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, we'll have you on again soon.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: When you've been gone off and done some other exciting stuff, which we won't mention yet.
51:03
SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah, yeah.
51:04
SPEAKER_03: And as a reminder, where can people find you online?
51:09
SPEAKER_03: How can people get in touch?
51:11
SPEAKER_01: So I'm on Instagram at Cotswold Sex Therapy.
51:15
SPEAKER_01: Um I I I'm not hugely active on there, but people can sort of see up and coming retreats and also just follow some of my work that I do in the press there.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, and um, if they want to contact me, my website is www.lsychotherapy.com.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: I will share it.
51:38
SPEAKER_00: I will share it on Instagram again.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, until next Friday, stay toxic.