Latest / Art of the Question / What I Learned From 20 Podcasts - Julius Moorman - #20

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What I Learned From 20 Podcasts - Julius Moorman - #20 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: So welcome to the show. Today's going to be a little different than usual because the guest of today's show is me. I thought it would be a good idea to do some sort of Q &A episode in order to celebrate 20 episodes of my podcast. ⁓ There were, there are some talking points that I just want to get out there because Most of you are subscribed for the documentary videos I used to make. This is something completely different. So I thought this would be a nice moment to address ⁓ some of the questions you may have. And if you don't have any questions, it's just a nice way of journaling. I plan on doing this for a very long time. So it will be fun to see how I talk, how well of a communicator I am. recording one of these solo sessions after 20 episodes and then maybe I'll do one again after 30 or 40 and then eventually all the way up until we're way up in the hundreds or even thousands. And I'm just very curious to see what that will do to my speaking capabilities. So I didn't really do a Q &A yet because There were just some questions that I thought would be interesting to pose today. So yeah, it's kind of a schizophrenic way of doing things, but going forward, I will ask the audience to have some questions to file in their questions and then we can do those going forward. But for now, 20 episodes. Yeah, the reason I picked this milestone is because there's this statistic that Chris Williamson talks about a lot, is that most podcasts, like 90 % of all shows, stop after episode three. And if you make it to episode 21, that means that you're in the top 1 % of all shows. Obviously not view-wise, but episode-wise, if you just count the amount of episodes. 99 % of all podcasts that start out don't make it past episode 20. So ⁓ I already have three or four more episodes recorded at this point. So congratulations to me because that means I am now officially in the top 1 % podcast shows of all the shows in the world. And I know it's a very silly metric. Like it's a stupid statistic, but I just thought it was cool. Like it was my first tangible goal that I had with this show and very controllable goal, if you will. ⁓ So, yeah, I'm glad I made it. ⁓ And there's there's many, many more to come. But I guess the first question that I want to answer is ⁓ why did you quit making documentary videos and why did you start the podcast? All right. So. I believe I started making YouTube videos around two and a half, maybe three years ago. And I was a big fan of YouTube channels like Johnny Harris, Cleo Abram. My goal was to kind of imitate them, give my own twist, of course, but to make this like super polished documentary style explainer style videos. had zero experience. I just became a journalist and I, yeah, so I didn't have a lot of experience as a journalist, but also as a filmmaker. So I didn't have any camera gear when I started out. I didn't know how to edit videos. Like I could, I knew what a timeline was, but other than that, I, I, I, my editing skills were, were basically non-existent. So I had to start from scratch. And for my first YouTube video, I went to Switzerland. which was kind of an ambitious first video to make. Like I thought it would just, the topic was Final Spark, which is a company that's working on a brain computer. And they were in Switzerland. So I decided to drive out there with my brother. I had never filmed interviews in real life. I recorded everything on my iPhone with, with DJI Bluetooth mics and just went. to editing and I had a couple of effects I wanted to learn and have in the video. I just watched some YouTube tutorials. Yeah, I fully expected that video to blow up immediately, but of course I got a couple hundred views. That was the first reality check. was like, okay, this is going to be a bit more difficult than I expected it to be. But we make another one and another one. pretty shortly after, like I believe was my fifth or sixth video. Like I was used to I would publish these videos in the evening and then I would go to bed and then wake up. Like it was like some kid on Christmas morning, like hoping that the video would have performed well. But every time, literally every time it would just be a big deception, which is which makes sense. mean, YouTube is fucking difficult. And if you look at the people that I was like competing with, like Cleo Abram, like why the hell would you want to watch like one of my crappy YouTube videos when you can watch Johnny Harris, right? So I was kind of delusional at that point. But anyway, you kept making YouTube videos. I did improve significantly. That has to be said. And then one day I wake up. And it's just like I had 18 subscribers when I went to bed, like one eight, two digit number. And then I woke up and I had like 600 subscribers. And I was like, yo, what the fuck happened? And my, my, video that I had posted, the insane evolution of click forms, it had just completely exploded. It was amazing. Like the rush I felt on that morning, it was. Absolutely, absolutely incredible. So for the entire day, I just keep refreshing the YouTube video. I see the comments boring in and just with that single video, like within 48 hours, I had like 1400 subscribers. It launched me into being monetized immediately. And yeah, that was honestly fucking awesome. Like I was so hooked. was so, but also I was immediately it fed into the delusion that I was going to be able to bang these out on a consistent basis. And I believe I made a crucial mistake then that I thought like I figured out YouTube, you know, like I know how to make these videos now and ⁓ the next one will be a success. And yeah, this is like this is like how I expected it might take a couple tries, but I'll figure it out pretty soon. And then of course, the next video was completely different. It was a fun video. I believe it was a debate between two chat GPT systems, which was kind of novel at the time. Nobody had really done that. And I built them like a little podcast studio and had them debate different like topics about ⁓ pretty big questions. Are we alone in the universe and will AI be the end of us? ⁓ So I thought like, this is super original. This video is going to blow up for sure. But then I didn't. It got like 300 views, maybe tops. And I was crushed, but I was like, okay, we'll get it next time. But every time I would do something completely different than the video that blew up the first time, like the insane evolution of ClickFarm. So maybe like four or five videos later, then I decided to go back to that format. But by then I had already lost most of the audience that was interested in that single video. So that brought me like a very important lesson that if you have something that works, you should be able to like repeat it, repeat the format, repeat the topic. But that's not what I like. I didn't really want to do that because I I have so much, my interests are so broad, know, so maybe one week my interest will be in ClickFarms and then the next it will be in how Ozempic came about, you know? So, I mean, if you look at all the topics I usually make, there is definitely a general theme, which is science, technology, kind of real life Black Mirror stuff, but it's pretty broad and generally that doesn't work well. if you want to make it on YouTube. ⁓ But anyway, I continued to make YouTube videos. Some of them were pretty successful. Some of them were less successful. as my skills improved, also... The videos took longer and longer to make because my standards would also become higher. So I would kind of fall into this perfectionist trap where I form my documentaries with... It yielded very good YouTube videos. For example, the documentary I made about ⁓ people that were in romantic relationships with AI girlfriends, that was a good YouTube video. If I say so myself, I interviewed six or eight people for that video. I did all the animations myself in Blender. I thought the pacing was really nice. I thought it was a very balanced perspective and I got a lot of like good compliments on that video. But the thing is like it took me three months to make that video. I what I usually what would happen while making these longer projects is that I was very passionate about it when I started working on the project when I did the research, when I did the interviews, but as soon as I had to edit the video, I would just dread it. I did like the first day of editing, but I would spend weeks, like two weeks editing these YouTube videos. And it was just such a dreadful process that I really, really didn't enjoy. What I like about journalism is having these interviews and doing research into these different topics, not necessarily making it look very good, not necessarily like editing these videos. And I know like if you just stay the course and become successful, maybe you can hire an editor so you don't really have to worry about that so much anymore. But I do think like just hire an editor, bro, like that might work for someone who live streams or something. But if you want to make proper documentary style videos that are also working well from a journalistic perspective, I don't think like that's a very distinct skill to have. Like there's, it's a different skill than just the technical skills of editing a video. So I would have to like stay in the loop very closely in order to make sure, or at least make some sort of rough cut in order to make sure that the journalistic product turns out the way I want it to. ⁓ Which is also not something I was really looking forward to. And then also I felt that I kind of got into this existential crisis where I didn't really know what to do anymore. So I tried a couple more YouTube videos but I would notice that my enjoyment of making these videos was heavily tied. Almost it was completely tied to the outcome of the video. A good example is the rice field video. I made a documentary about farmers here in Bali, Indonesia, who were selling their rice fields because they could make ⁓ a lot more money than if they would just continue to build rice ⁓ on these fields. And I had so much fun filming it. You know, like I had the most wonderful interviews. spoke to the most wonderful people, I recorded on beautiful locations, I had to like travel across the entire island to run all these interviews. But then when the video flopped, it got like 400 views or whatever, I hated that video for a long time. Like it's been over a year ago now, so I can kind of look at it in a more objective way. But for a long time, like... I would never watch that video again or when I saw it on my channel I just I would like feel sick to my stomach because I just knew how much fucking effort I put into that video and it just like it was all for nothing like that's literally how I saw it it was like I did it for nothing you know which is not true because I still have those memories, right? And I still have connections with those people I interviewed. it wasn't for nothing. But honestly, my goal was to become like a professional YouTuber. I wanted to make this my job. And if you want to make it your job, people need to watch the fucking videos. And if they don't watch the videos, yeah, you're not making any money. And if you're not making any money, you can't really call it your job. Right. So, ⁓ but I knew like I was getting burned out of working on a single project for two months. Sometimes it would get 100k views and then the next video would get 200 views. it was, I never really cracked the code and probably if I would have just stayed the course or if I would stay the course or start a separate channel, like I learned so much from making all these YouTube videos. I learned a fuckton. But What I also learned is that it's not for me. Like making documentary videos, you really, really have to love it. And I have very fond memories of making a lot of these videos, ⁓ but I didn't love it enough to, if I just flashed forward, like, is this like the struggle of editing these videos, the struggle of getting people in front of the camera, the struggle of having to go everywhere? Like, is that something that I see myself doing for the rest of my life? And I just took a look in the mirror and thought about it. And the answer was no. So it doesn't mean I will never make a documentary self video again, but it does mean that I didn't want to do it anymore. But okay, I figured out this is what I don't want to do anymore. And now comes the existential crisis part. So what do you want to do? That's a good question. ⁓ So I literally I went back to the drawing board. I went back through my notes. I started like journaling a lot too because I did know like I do want to keep making content. I do think making content is something I really enjoy generally. I think it would be very fun to keep doing this. And also I work as a journalist for ⁓ different Dutch media companies and that's very nice. I enjoy working for them, but if a story blows up, I still get paid the same amount of money. And also the like traditional media is having a pretty difficult time. So what happens if they don't have enough money anymore to pay their journalists, right? If they go bankrupt. So I think it's also very smart to build your own audience and ⁓ yeah, try to live from your own media because of course your audience can bail on you. That's for sure. But building something that is yours is a much safer bet, I believe, than having to rely on others to give you work. And also it's much more fun. to be able to have like full creative direction over who you speak to, what you're making. So I knew that I wanted to keep making my own content as well. And I was like, yeah, what do you do if you do like the process of doing research? What do you do if you do like interviewing people, talking to all these interesting people? I think the answer is pretty clear. I think you make a podcast. So that's what I did. And I just started winging it. I was like, okay, these are some topics I wanted to make YouTube videos about anyway. ⁓ Why not just turn them into a podcast? So I did reach out to a bunch of my contacts. ⁓ Just started recording shows on Riverside with them. And yeah, I mean, I wouldn't really say the rest is history yet because we've only been doing this for about two and a half. three months stops, but man, I'm having so much fun with it. It's honestly, it's crazy. I haven't really had this much fun ⁓ making anything since I started ⁓ making content. So I'm really, really sure that I really found something that suits me well. ⁓ And this is something I'm in for the long run. Like obviously it's still relatively new. So you're still riding that high of finding something new and everything. Like you're learning very fast so you can see like the differences are big. But I know in my gut that this is something that yeah, that really suits me that I want to pursue. that's ⁓ yeah, that's why I started the pod. And that's why. I quit making documentary videos, at least for the foreseeable future. So next question is, what is your goal with the bot? So I have a couple goals. big one is just to, how do I put this? I have a couple like very tangible, like financial goals and I have a intangible goals. So let's speak about the tangible goals first because they are also a vehicle for the intangible goals. The tangible goals are I want to be able to do this professionally. I want to be able to do this full time. I really enjoy writing for the Dutch media companies, but I would love to be able to pour all my time, heart and soul, all my focus into something that is mine. And in order to do that, need to generate an income from it. yeah, my first goal is to just be able to do this full time, which would mean that I would need to make around like $2,000 euros a month in order to sustain myself. And as soon as I like have that baseline of around 2K per month, can like safely slowly phase out the other clients I have and then start recording more episodes. We're doing currently, I'm doing two episodes a week, which is very manageable with my other work. But I'm thinking of maybe going to three episodes a week and maybe even four, but that's like ambitious. But if it was going to be four, I would do like a standard solo episode every single week as well. So that's the first goal. Make some money from the pot to be able to do this full time so that you can do this professionally so you become independent of ⁓ client work that can potentially go down the shitter one day. Then I have another tangible goal of one day reaching a thousand episodes. ⁓ That's a tangible goal that I set to reach the intangible goal, which is just to become a better communicator. I think everyone considers people like Joe Rogan, Chris Williamson, very good communicators. And why is that the case? It's the case because they do this for a living. Like they have so many hours of just talking to people under their belt. I think it really, really shows. And I think being a great communicator is just the best trait you can have. To have all this knowledge and being able to portray this knowledge in a way that makes people want to listen, I think that's just an incredibly cool skill to have. And also doing a thousand episodes means that I've spoken to hundreds of people, all super interesting. And yeah, just to gain this incredible amount of knowledge while being able to call my job, think that's, yeah, what better life is there, right? So I mean, that's my goal for the pod, to become a better communicator, to become a smarter guy. more eloquent and yeah, the goal you can only get there by doing it full time because you have to put in the hours to become good at something and if you want to be able to do something full time, it means you need to be able to pay the bills. So I have a couple tangible goals in order to reach the intangible goal, which I think is generally more important. I recently did an episode on Finite and Infinite games and I think... Becoming a better communicator or be trying to become a more eloquent person is an infinite game because you can Become like there is no end stage. There isn't something you can say like ⁓ Now you're so elegant now you you can't be any more eloquent than you currently are like that's not how it works It's a soft skill like you can always be a better communicator So yeah, there's always something to work on, which is something that really appeals to me, continuous improvement. It's why I like going to the gym, working out. that's the goal. That's the goal. And a thousand episodes, think that's just, it's a stupid number. I plan to do even more than a thousand episodes, but I think that's a good starting point. I think if you do a thousand shows, Like you have to there's no way that there isn't going to be any any improvement if you do a thousand shows. But it's a long road ahead of me, man. Like we are at episode 20. This is going to be episode 20. I did record a bunch of future shows which are going to be awesome. ⁓ But yeah, long road ahead of me. But that doesn't scare me. I'm very, very excited for the future. I'm very excited to have more conversations going forward. So what's the next one, next question? I think... Let's see what we get. What is something you underestimated when you started? I think something that I underestimated when I started is just If you, do something, there's the visible parts and there are the invisible parts, right? So the visible part when making a podcast is you see the YouTube video or the Spotify episode, whichever platform you're listening from and you click on it and you listen to it. it's like, okay, Julius in this case, did this show, he had the conversation, it's pretty obvious. But the invisible part is coming up with the idea for the show, with the topic we want to discuss. Finding the guests that can speak on this topic, then reaching out to the guests, writing the email, go back and forth planning the episode with the guests. landing on a date, then send talking points to this guests prior to the show. So they know what to expect. Preparing for the episode, so doing research in the guests. Did they write any interesting papers that I should read? What more should I know about this topic before I start the conversation? Then there's the recording, then there's the preparation, like turning on the lights, making everything look pretty, switching on the camera, switching on the mic, make sure there's enough storage, like make sure the internet connection works. Then there's the actual conversation, of course, which is the fun part. And then after there's the editing, which luckily is ⁓ minimal work when you're making a podcast, but there is some editing involved. ⁓ There's the clips, making the mid-form clips, making the short form clips, publishing all of those to all of the different social media channels, writing the description for YouTube, for Spotify, making thumbnails for YouTube and for Spotify, ⁓ then scheduling all the posts and then finally distributing through channels, posting stories to Instagram, LinkedIn. That's like the invisible part of the show. like some of it is more fun. Some of it is less fun. I mean, I don't enjoy making the thumbnails or writing the emails, but some of it is a lot of fun. For example, if you land a guest, like there are some episodes where I really wanted to speak to a guest. Henry Schevlin is a good example. Anders Sandberg. ⁓ which are some of my favorite episodes, but we'll get there later. It's like the feeling you get, ⁓ Nathan Copeland, the BCI patient episode I did, the feeling you get when you land a new guest is pretty amazing. You certainly do get a good dopamine spike when that happens. Preparing the episode is an invisible but very nice something. really really enjoy obviously having the conversation is Is very enjoyable. So I I do feel like when when making this show there are so many more points in the show That are enjoyable for me. So yeah, generally it's it's something I feel like I can be consistent with with the YouTube videos every single time I finished the video, I had to go back to the drawing board, start from scratch. Okay. What are we going to make? Is it going to perform well? What should I title this video? Because you just have the one video. Like, okay, maybe you can A-B test some thumbnails, but it was like a lot dependent on it. You know, for this single singular piece of content, I would do like 20 or six interviews for one piece of content. Whereas now I can like blast volume. So I'm also less attached to the outcome. Like if a video doesn't perform well, I really don't care because there's going to be a lot more videos even published that same same day. So I think if you want to be successful in something, is it all starts with consistency. If you want to go to the gym, get in better shape, it all starts with consistency. Everyone can can wreck themselves for four weeks, completely kill themselves in the gym for four weeks, eat super dialed and then have a birthday, have one too many drinks and then get into lose it all again. Because they stop. Eventually your motivation runs out. Like everything you do, your motivation runs out. So you can grind all you want, but I think if the majority of the process isn't enjoyable to you, it's going to be very, very difficult to be successful because how the fuck are you going to compete with someone who just enjoys doing this? Like there's no way, like if you actually enjoy doing something, which I currently do with the podcast, it's so easy, right? Like when I'm riding my bicycle or walking, and new ideas for the show come into play and immediately start googling potential guests on my phone. And then when I get home, I can wait to send the emails and then eagerly wait for them to respond. it's like, I'm pretty like, I'm obsessed with it at this point, which is good, which again, we are only a couple months in. So my enthusiasm will fade probably, but... There has never been something I did that came easier to me than this. I do think that that's a very strong indication ⁓ that I'm currently on the right track. ⁓ But yeah, so coming back to the question, what is something that you underestimated when you started? I underestimated the amount of work still that it takes. Of course, you think about the visible work, the show that is published, doing the show. There's so much steps before recording and after recording, sharing the episode with the guests once it's already live. Like there's a million tiny little steps that need to be done that I'm now all doing by myself. And I don't hate them. They're part of the process, but it's just like, I underestimated the amount of work. But I'm very happy to do the work. Let, let that be very clear. So what is something that you overestimated? Something that I overestimated honestly was landing the guests. I didn't have a single episode recorded and I reached out to, I think 10 people. Some of them who knew me that has to be said, but a lot of them had never heard about me. The episode. First ⁓ episode I ever did was with Timothy Bonifer and it was some guy I saw on Instagram and I liked his videos about how to improve your pronunciation. And I just did a cold outreach to him and I landed him on the show. Very first episode. I had nothing to show for it. That was just like, okay, that's cool. And then after a few episodes, I was able to land guests like Nathan Copeland, which is the longest running BCI implant patient on the planet. had Henry Shevelin on the show and there's Sandberg, which are my favorite episodes, which I'll get into. it just like Henry Shevelin is just, he just became the new head of philosophy at Google DeepMind. This is like a huge, huge guy and he agreed to come onto the show. So I mean, that's really impressive to me that or that surprised me rather that so many people were willing to come on on the show while I had nothing to show for a couple episodes maybe. So yeah, that's definitely something I overestimated. It turns out it's pretty easy to ⁓ get people to join on your podcast. I mean, in my experience. So what are some of the dream guests that I still want to have ⁓ on the show? The dream guests I want to have on the show are like by far it's going to be ⁓ Chris Williamson, mean, it's my modern wisdom is my favorite show. I listen to it. I listen to pretty much all episodes, and I think he's just a phenomenal communicator. He's very focused on continuous improvements and he brings out the best in people. I yeah, I really, really enjoy a show. He's the reason why I started doing this. So I think like if I had to pick only one guest, like the absolute God tier of guests, it's going to be Chris Williamson. Like he's the God in my opinion. ⁓ He's phenomenal. Then I have a bunch of ⁓ guests that I would like really, really like to have ⁓ a conversation with. which is David Kipping or am I butchering his name? David. David Kipping. Yes, David Kipping. There's no L in there. David Kipping. think he's he's amazing. I love his his YouTube channel. Cool World. Again, he's a phenomenal science communicator. He's so passionate about what he does. Such a smart guy. Super balanced opinion like. He loves what I really like about his content is he dares to take these wild concepts and then just scientifically explain them, just like pull them apart like an onion, like takes away the layers and looks at it like serious. Like he does a video about faster than light travel and just doesn't immediately dismiss it like no. There's speed limited universe and we can never travel faster than light. But he completely explains it, why, what are the paradoxes that arise. he has all these videos about crazy concepts, but he takes them very seriously. And I think he's just ⁓ a phenomenal communicator. ⁓ Other dream guests, ⁓ obviously, Brian Cox, I'd say, he's one of the another phenomenal science communicator. What can I say? Brian Cox is the goat. He made all these incredible documentaries. He's part of the reason why I enjoy watching space content so much. So, yeah, if I If I'm ever able to get Brian Cox on a show, I think that would be fucking awesome. Like there are some other people that I would want to have on the show. People like Ryan Holliday. Oh, Hannah Fry is something I would love to get on the show as well. I have a list here. it's like I see Tio Vaughn on the list. I see Bryce in the Shambow. So like some pretty big names on there. But honestly, like I'm not in a rush to get to get them. First of all, I want to become better at this. Like, let's say I could push a button right now and ⁓ wave my magic wand and have Chris Williamson on the show tomorrow. Right. My absolute dream guest. Like, why I wouldn't press that button like I wouldn't, genuinely I wouldn't because I feel like you should only be able to talk to these people as soon as you get to a certain level. And I'm not there yet. Like there's so much more I can improve with my communication. And I think we would have a much better and more interesting conversation if I am better, if I am at a ⁓ at a higher level. Like I wouldn't want it to be some sort of like charity event. He's like, ⁓ this poor, small fucking creator, like I'll help him out by coming on the silly show. Not that he would, but just a thought experiment. Like I genuinely wouldn't want to have him on at this stage. I would want to have a couple hundred episodes in. I am... absolutely certain of the craft and of my capabilities. But I do think it's important to write your goals down and to have your list with Dreamguest, to have your Mount Rushmore of people that you would love to speak to. But not right now. Like everything should... The time will be right. It will happen one day, but today is not that day. And I'm glad it is because there's a lot more work to do before we're ready for such big conversations. Anyway, all of this is to say, by the way, that I've had some pretty big guests on already. If you look at the size of my show, this is not to say that that wasn't... meant to happen or something or that the people I spoke to so far aren't special in any way. ⁓ Because they are, because this is a good segue to discuss some of my favorite episodes, which is the question I wrote down. What is your favorite episode so far? And it has to be Henry Schevlin. I mean, we spoke about whether AI, artificial intelligence can ever become conscious. It's such an interesting episode to me, interesting discussion, because I just really I'm fascinated by this topic. I recently started reading a lot about consciousness and basically we don't have a clear answer as to what it is yet. There's within philosophy, within neuroscience, within biology, there isn't a clear definition. Like, we all know what we mean by, are you conscious? It's a pretty straightforward answer, right? It's like, yes, I'm conscious. Like, I'm doing this. I'm recording this video right now. So I must be conscious. But if you then ask me to explain what consciousness is, it starts to get pretty murky already. Like, how would you describe it? ⁓ It's pretty hard to put it into words. And then also if you are thinking about consciousness in other beings, other people seem conscious and animals seem conscious. But the only way you know that or can even think about whether they are even conscious or not is because of your own consciousness. So everything leads back to you being conscious. And yeah, that's what makes it so difficult. yeah, just with AI improving so fast, I thought it would just be an incredibly interesting conversation with Henry Schevlin. And the funny thing is, is I reached out to Henry ⁓ because I knew him from his work at Cambridge. then the day, or I believe one day before we start the show, before I would have him on, he drops this huge bombshell that he was just hired by Google DeepMind to be their philosopher at Google DeepMind. I believe that's his official title, which is the coolest title ever. But that was just a crazy coincidence and good for me that I was able to have such a big name on the show. The timing was impeccable. Yeah, Henry is just an incredibly, incredibly smart guy and just a great guy to have an interesting conversation with. that's that if you ask me like, what's your favorite episode? That one comes to mind immediately. Second one I really enjoyed is I enjoyed them all. Don't get me wrong, but I really enjoyed my show with Anders Sandberg as well about transhumanism. I, yeah, it's again, it's such a wild topic. Basically, if you don't know what transhumanism is, is transhumanists believe that we will supersede to what's natural and that we as humanity will continue to enhance our bodies in a superficial manner to, for example, implement ⁓ implant our brains with BCI. That's a mechanical ⁓ enhancement, but you also have biological enhancement. And when we're talking about biological enhancement, you have to think about stuff like CRISPR, for example, maybe you can edit your own DNA in order to make yourself stronger. ⁓ biological enhancement would also be peptides, steroids, ⁓ medicine, like anything that biologically enhances or changes the body. And he believes in total morphological freedom, which is basically the freedom to modify your own bodies. ⁓ But yeah, I thought that was such a interesting, ⁓ interesting ⁓ conversation. And Yeah, you should really listen to it if you haven't already because it's great. Anders is a great guy. He's very friendly. And ⁓ yesterday I recorded a new episode that hasn't aired yet with Matthew Cobb and Matthew, we spoke about CRISPR and gene editing and he's ⁓ probably the opposite of ⁓ a trans humanist. ⁓ He's probably the opposite of a transhumanist. also, I brought this up and he really didn't want to talk about it. But yeah, ⁓ it was a ⁓ good episode. You should definitely listen to it. Sorry, I was distracted by someone sweeping ⁓ the floor in front of me. So I'm back. I'm locked in again. ⁓ So what more do we have ⁓ for today? Okay, yeah, maybe how I started ended up in journalism. Maybe we will end the solo episode with the origin story. ⁓ Some of you may know, or some of you may not know, that I didn't start my career as a journalist. I started out as a tax lawyer. And I studied tax law, which was kind of wild actually, because I grew up in a family that was very creative, that my dad was in advertising. ⁓ So he was kind of in the, one of the biggest advertisers in the Netherlands in kind of the madman era. So a lot of cigarettes, booze and cool media campaigns. My mom was a writer, she is a journalist as well. And then somehow I end up as a tax lawyer, which is strange, right? So what happened there is I wanted to do something creative. I actually wanted to make documentary. I wanted to become a documentary filmmaker. And I remember going to these, one of these open days, open house days at the film school here in Amsterdam. And I remember it so well. was this, because of course I was like 17 at the time and I didn't want to just get into film school. I wanted to get into film school for the director course. So I wanted to become a director. And I remember this lady giving this speech and she told us like, it's going to be so difficult to become a director. Like we only because they make six movies every year and they only hire the people that they need to make those six movies. So every movie has one director. So to hire six directors, every movie has like three editors. So they let in, let in 18 editors and so on and so forth. So they, the entire, ⁓ admission process is completely based on the six movies they make as their final projects. So that was pretty discouraging because she said like, get a thousand applications every single year. So there's like a 0.6 % chance that you'll get in. And of course it's not random. You have to have like a big CV, a big portfolio. And most of the people that enter into the director course, I like 25 year olds and I've worked in the film industry for a couple of years and they have a lot of experience and that's when they'll enroll to become a director. So yeah, I remember my dreams being crushed right there on the spot because I was like, damn, this is so pointless. And which is crazy. Look, I had a very different mindset back then. Like if you listen to this, you might think like, okay. then get to work, you know, what's needed. You need to build a portfolio. You need to start making movies. You need to get the experience, which is what the logical reaction would have been. And it wasn't my reaction. My reaction was this is impossible. And yeah, I'm not even going to try. So what then? Like I had no idea what I wanted to do then. I never really thought about it. I was just like, I'm going to become a director. I'm going to the film school. And I didn't know it was going to be so difficult, like stupid 17 year old, right? So then I got some new friends ⁓ who all were going to do a gap year after high school. And I did a gap year as well. And that involved a lot of partying, a lot of drinking and a lot of not thinking about what I wanted to do with my life. And then the year was over and I had to make a decision fast because you have to enroll for what you want to do. at least in the summer, I believe. then I just some guys I knew were going to study in a different town. I grew up in Amsterdam. ⁓ So I went to law school in Leiden. That was honestly, it was the most fun period of I might say, like my current period in life is a lot of fun, but that was the most careless period of my life. I lived in a frat house with like 14 other dudes and we had, we had a blast, man. Like my life was so simple at the time. And for like six years, I could did my bachelor's, did my master's. Like, was like, I know that I one day have to become a lawyer because I'm in fucking law school, but it never really registered for some reason that I was actually going to have to do this. until I graduated and then got a job offer. And then before you know it, you're like working as a fucking lawyer. I was like, hey, okay. I mean, I kind of knew this was going to happen, but geez, is this what life is going to be, you know? But in the beginning, it was fun. Like I worked at Deloitte at the International Tax Department of Deloitte. And my colleagues were great. Like I still, I'm still in touch with a, with a bunch of them, like very fun people. However, then COVID came along and usually all these fancy dinners that we'd have and parties after work and the social environment of, making jokes at the office, like all of that went away and I was just stuck with the, with the work. And it was really an eye opener because I I always thought like, okay, this is a pretty fun life. Like I knew it wasn't perfect for me, but it was a lot of fun. But as soon as like all of the social activities were stripped away and I was just left with the work, I just felt this incredible sadness that I was going to have to do this for the rest of my life. And is this what my life had become? You know, it's just, I have to like. fix these stupid fucking tax problems for other people. I'm not really building something of my own. And I don't know, that was like pretty depressing. And I also got like very depressed during that time. Like I was very, very unhappy with my life and the way things were going. mean, being locked up in your house during COVID didn't help either, but it was just, it was a difficult period. in a sense, it was positive because it prompted me to start writing. I started writing my negative thoughts I had. would put into words, put them on paper and I would send them out to friends and family, you know? And a bunch of them actually said like, hey man, this is really good. Like it's good stuff. Maybe you should send this to a newspaper one day. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like you send it to a newspaper. I don't work there. was like, no, you don't have to work there. You can just send in your own articles as well and I like as like an opinion piece and sometimes still publish it. So I send them my piece. First one didn't get published. They did get a reply that they thought it was good, but it was just like already the topic was already had already expired. So it was too late. And then I do a second one about COVID and about how our government was failing to tackle this disease and how every one in Europe was already living their normal lives again, but the Netherlands was basically the only country that was still going from lockdown to lockdown. And that article just went extremely viral. Like all these famous Dutch people put it on their Instagram stories. It was like it got a million views on LinkedIn, like a million impressions, like absolutely bonkers. And I remember I was ⁓ in, it wasn't like therapy therapy, but it was like with a career coach. I was in touch with a career coach and I bring this up in one of our conversations that was like, Hey, yeah, I wrote something and that's yeah, it's pretty cool. It's gone really viral. And she's like, okay, how did it make you feel? I was like, Yeah, it made me feel really good because I just put something, my thoughts onto a piece of paper. It was only 300 words, very short. And with those 300 words, I've reached so many people and instilled all these emotions in people. I mean, there were some negative reactions as well, for sure, but that was really cool to me that people would take the time to reply to it and reach out to me. And then she said, like, isn't it obvious what you should do? Like, what do you mean? She was like, you should write. Like, this is what you should be doing. I was like, oh, yeah, maybe I should. Maybe I should start writing, huh? Okay. And it was right in front of me, but I just couldn't see it. It was really strange. But I quit my job. Deloitte not much later, but I didn't have an alternative yet. And I thought I was kind of arrogant. I thought it would be very easy for me to get a job, but it wasn't. Like I thought my experience as a lawyer would be enough to land a job pretty soon. My single viral article. But no, I couldn't be further from the truth. I reached out to like 12 media companies to to apply for their jobs and they're like, they all had the same reaction, like interesting profile, but we've decided to pursue a candidate with a little more experience and publications under their belt. But it turned into this terrible chicken and egg problem where like, I wasn't getting hired because I didn't have any publications other than the one article, but I couldn't get any publications because I wasn't getting hired. So I was getting nowhere basically. So that's when I decided to reach out to all the journalists I knew, have coffee with them, have lunch with them and see if, yeah, see if they could introduce me to someone or maybe if they would have any tips or tricks in order to get me hired. And then one guy actually gave me the golden ⁓ advice. ⁓ to start an internship again, to become an intern again, which was pretty like, it sucks, right? I had a very good paying job, very well paying job as a lawyer for a couple of years. I worked as a lawyer for three years, tax advisor, and then my income went to zero and I had already made a promotion and now I had to become an intern again, like That wasn't great, but I knew I really wanted to do this. So ⁓ I just compiled a list of media companies that I thought were cool and reached out to them. Something like ex former tax lawyer looking for journalism internship, something along those lines. the first media company I sent it to is called Quote Magazine. Just like the Dutch equivalent of Forbes. within 24 hours, they're like, hey, want to come over to have a coffee tomorrow? I was like, yeah, I'll come over to have a coffee tomorrow. We have a chat with the big boss. They tell me to pitch three topics. And then they chose one topic for me. And I had, they gave me eight hours to write an article about it to see if I can manage the pace. And they liked it. They published it. And yeah, that was that. They hired me on the spot. could do the internship and there was a lot of hard work. Like I had to write a new article every single day with zero experience. they are a fun, fun brand in a sense. They will kind of test you to see what you're made of and to see what you're capable of. on my first day, I will never forget it. They just show me my workstation and there's like, man, we're working with schedule here. yeah, today your time on the schedule is like, it's one o'clock, 1 1 PM. So yeah, let's say that I need about an hour to read it and to maybe improve it. So let's say you'll have an article ready for me by 12. I was like, but dude, it's 9.30. I was like, he's like, yeah, it's 9.30. I was like, but what am I going to write about? And he's like, oh, whoa, on. Like you're the journalist here. You have all the great connections and all the great ideas. I don't know. You tell me what are you going to write about? I was like, fuck. Okay. This is how it's going to go. But anyway, that was very stressful, but I learned so much from my period there and I still work for them. Actually, I quit after my internship was over. I had to go. I knew that. Then I worked for the Dutch News for about two years. And then about one and a half years ago, I decided to start out on my own. So I currently work as a freelancer and I still work for the company that hired me as a, as an intern that day. So, yeah, pretty, pretty cool story. And I'm, I'm still very happy to do it. I love writing. I really, I really do. And even when I managed to get this podcast off the ground and when I will be able to do it full time, I will always. continue to write but it will probably be in the form of a newsletter or just general sub stack articles because it's definitely something that ⁓ I want to keep doing I think it's a very good way to Talking helps, but if you write something down, have to be so much more specific than when you're just speaking. And it's a good, if you don't know how to feel about something, I suggest to write about it because that really, yeah, it really focuses you to, or forces you rather to get your thoughts in order. So anyway, I've been yapping for more than an hour now. There's many questions I haven't even answered, but this, I really didn't know what to expect. I thought I'm just going to hit record and do a solo episode. I thought it would be hard to do 20 minutes, but here we are. I crossed the barrier of an hour. So this was fun, actually. I didn't know how often I'm going to do these. Also depends on what I have on my chest and ⁓ how well it goes with landing new guests. But yeah, this is cool. I want to keep doing this. ⁓ I have, ⁓ yeah, first real life episode is coming. There's ⁓ a final question. Are you going to do real life episodes as well? Yes, I will. Production is going to be a lot more difficult because I have to be physically there with the person. I have to set up the different cameras. I have to fix the lighting. I have to get a recording location. It's a big hassle, but it's definitely something I want to do more of in the future because doing the real life episodes is a lot of fun. It's better to have someone in front of you and to have a real conversation rather than just the video calls. Even though Riverside is fucking awesome. But yeah, first real life episode coming later this week. It will be live on Thursday ⁓ if you're tuning in. make sure to check that one out. It was with my German friend Fred and it's about people pleasing. It's an amazing episode. For now, ⁓ yeah, thank you for listening. If you've made it all the way through this crazy yapping session, ⁓ that's crazy. You're insane.