Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 103: King Baby Didn't Like That

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Ep. 103: King Baby Didn't Like That · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the We Are More podcast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: We're two sisters passionate about all
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word. And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hello, world. Hello. How are you? I I, have nothing to say. So
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: we are recording the Saturday before Easter. So happy late Easter because you'll be listening to this on, like, Thursday.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: I hope you got some chocolate bunnies. I hope you had some peace. And also, oh, those little Dove chocolate eggs. Those are good. You know
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: what I really like? Have you seen the I forget what brand they are, but they're shaped like carrots.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. I think they're lint. And I get
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: them every year. They're like hazelnut chocolates or something. And they're so good. Yeah. And I only like the ones that come out at Easter.
• 1:18
  I don't know why. So Brie and I have gotten really into something weird lately. Are you prepared for the nerdiest part of us? Have we talked about this before? I don't know if we have.
• 1:28
  I feel like it's a a slight source of shame, perhaps.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: I don't know that I would consider it shame. I feel a little bit ashamed. Well, you should feel ashamed. Specifically, I don't feel as ashamed.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: We've gotten super into rocks. Okay? I like rocks. Keep keep with me. I promise I'm going somewhere.
• 1:49
  I'm enjoying some rocks. I find it fascinating. So I here's how I started off with it. Okay? This is the embarrassing part for me.
• 2:02
  On TikTok, they have like those scoop videos, you know?
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I think not everybody's used to those because they keep getting sent to you because of your algorithm. I think it's just you. People don't understand what you mean by scoop.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you can go on, like, TikTok or Instagram or whatever. And there are these people, and they've got, like, a like a bowl full of something. Sometimes it's like gems. Other people have, like, jewelry, whatever.
• 2:31
  All kinds of different stuff. And you pay for a scoop of something, and they will scoop out, like, a random assortment of whatever that thing is. And apparently, it read my aura because and apparently because it started, like, feeding me all this content. And I just find it fascinating. And now Brie and I are going to rock shows that are, like, way far away from us.
• 2:58
  We're traveling. We're traveling for rocks.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: To be fair, we went to a rock show years ago. Mhmm. In our, like, hometown, the old high school had a rock and mineral or rock and gem show. Mhmm. And it looks like if you've ever been to the Christmas craft show or something, there's all kinds of different booths.
• 3:18
  But it's all rocks. Yep. And there's just a variety of people there. And I feel like the prettiest girl in the room. You know?
• 3:28
  Why are these two gorgeous, gorgeous girls into rocks?
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's what people are asking.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: And we buy rocks.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: We do. We have a lot. I have a lot of have rocks.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: A lot of rocks. You need to cool it down.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: But it's just like, the science of it and this is where I'm super nerdy too. Because I got this one, and Brie was looking at it, she was like, it looks like it it's broken in half. There's two different rocks glued together. And it turns out that that's kind of what happens. A rock can break, and then over time, like minerals from water and things like that get on it and basically grow another rock.
• 4:07
  How cool is that? That is super cool. Here's the thing. Alyssa loves, like,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: the science and whatever of the rocks. I took a geology class in college. I wasn't into it. It was not my thing. But I also collect the rocks, but the pretty rocks.
• 4:23
  They are pretty. Like, shiny rocks, the rocks that go together. I just like them because they're pretty. And Alyssa's like, dark and moody rocks.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: We have very different vibes. Yeah. But we still have a great time.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We both are into rocks. Very into rocks.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I have no idea how to transition from rocks. This was just the topic that was on my brain because I was just looking at my rocks. Oh, here we go.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: When we go to the rocks
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: shows Mhmm.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: A lot of the specimens have different locations. Like, have one from India, wherever. Queen Vashti was the wife the the queen of king Haseris. This is going really well. And he was from Palestine, and I'm sure there's rocks in Palestine.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Wow. That was not a good journey.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Well, it would be hot in like a desert, probably.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Just do the transition song. So because I'm sure you didn't catch it from that. Today, we're talking about Queen Vashti.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Does everybody know who she is? Because that's one of the names that's not mentioned a lot in the Bible. Mhmm. But it is mentioned in the Bible. Mhmm.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Queen Vashti is in the book of Esther, the story of Esther. And she like, I think she's mentioned in three or four verses. It's not long. It's like a super short little segment. But it is pretty significant from a feminist perspective and from a Christian perspective.
• 6:03
  Not that those two things need
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: to be mutually exclusive, but I've been fighting with people on the internet about that. There's so many comments on our posts lately, like, feminism is from the devil, and inclusion isn't in the Bible, and you're liars. And you're just like,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: okay. I had one person comment on because I did a video recently about Jesus fighting for inclusion of the marginalized. Yeah. And the immigrants and many other people. And they were like, the moment that I saw this video said inclusion, I knew what it was gonna be about.
• 6:42
  And I was like, you knew that it was gonna be a safe space? Like, what
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: what is the statement here? You're included too. Have no fear.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I wasn't discluding just you.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: They I just commented back on one person who was like, Jesus was not a feminist. How very dare you post this. You should just stop talking. And I was like, okay, maybe they didn't have the word feminist Mhmm. Back then, but let's look at the definition of it.
• 7:12
  Oh, believing in the rights and dignity of women that they are equal to men. Okay. Now let's look at Jesus' life. He treated women with dignity and respect and uplifted them in a society where traditionally men did not. In a patriarchal society, he went against that.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: What could that be defined as? What was one word that could just really wrap that up? So bizarre.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: I think Jesus might have been a feminist.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: So strange. But I think that really ties into Vashti well because of the perception that we often have of her. Mhmm. So if you've heard this story preached, she does often get mentioned in this story. Now, you're not hearing the story of Esther preached a whole lot.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Like we talked about last week, often women are just put in these stories to push forward the other stories of men. Mhmm. I feel like she's put in the story just for a little bit of context. Yeah. We don't get to hear a lot about her.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: No. But let's just give you kind of what her story actually is. I think oh, I think I told you guys last week to read it. Did you
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: read it? Did you do your homework?
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: If not, give yourself an F, and we'll move on.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: She's mentioned in Esther one, starting in verse one. Now, Queen Vashti was married to king Ahasuerus. Sure. I'm gonna say that because I feel like I'm right.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Is that how the guy pronounced it online? We looked this up. We weren't sure how to pronounce it.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: And we said it's like Lazarus, but Ahasuerus.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: We did. Mhmm. Oh, I
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: forgot about that. Yeah. Great. That was good of us.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Okay. So basically what happens to queen Bashti. So she is the queen. Now her husband may very well have had lots of, like, concubines and things like that. That was normal for the time.
• 9:02
  But she was the main girl. She was the one with the title.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Did I say Palestine before?
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's Persia. Okay. Well, there
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: you go. My bad.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: So she is the main the main wife, the main person. She's got the title. She's more public facing. And she gets a summons from her husband. Now her husband, the king, was having a party.
• 9:32
  This was like a multi day event. This wasn't a two hour let's all sit and eat cake party.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: It's not just multi day. Did you know it's a hundred and eighty days? Good gracious. Yeah. A hundred and eighty day party.
• 9:45
  That's excessive. Which was traditional for Persian kings.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Okay. So many a day. Yeah. And I don't think we know what day we're on
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: at I this don't know.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: But this was like a male centric event. A woman with a title would not have been there. This wasn't proper for her to be there.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: It would be considered inappropriate for her to be there.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Because everybody's trashed. Okay? Everybody's drinking. They're this is like a raucous club type party. And she she would never have been there.
• 10:21
  Apparently, she wasn't seeing her husband for a hundred and eighty days, which might not have sucked for her. And all of a sudden, she gets this summons from her husband in the midst of this party. Now Brie looked up some historical context about this, where she would have gotten the summons as well.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So if you look up in their original Hebrew, they would have understood this as this was an official order from the king, the most important guy in the empire. So he would send his officials to her. She was in a public setting. She wasn't just like hiding in her room and some guy said, Hey, the king wants to see you, if that's okay.
• 11:00
  This was an official order Mhmm. To her from the king, and he demanded that she come to this party. Mhmm.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Now, the reason that he did that was because he had basically been bragging to all of these other men at the party. Oh, the queen is the most beautiful woman in the land. Know? Like, she is amazing. You should be jealous of me because I possess her.
• 11:23
  I own her. And so he wanted her to come to this party and parade around and be like, oh, look at her. I'm so I'm the king and I have everything I want. Now some scholars and this is not an uncommon belief. And some scholars believe that she was actually asked to show up in nothing but her crown.
• 11:42
  So to show up fully naked at this party with a bunch of men. Now, naked or not, you have to assume as a woman, as a woman here in 2026, I would never put myself in a situation around a bunch of drunk men who don't respect women. Because what happens? We all know what happens. You're getting grabbed.
• 12:03
  Things are being said to you. Someone's shoving up against a wall. Like, are scary moments that you would not want to put yourself into. And Vashti knows that. This is probably not her first experience with a one hundred and eighty day party.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: It's also considered not normal Mhmm. For him to be asking this of her. It's inappropriate for her to be there. It's inappropriate for any member of the female royal party Mhmm. To be at this event.
• 12:29
  So it's odd and out of character for him to be asking this of her.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Right. So she says no. And she doesn't just say like, well, maybe no. She says no. And so his advisors have to now go back to him and be like, sir, I'm so sorry, but the queen said no.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: And I feel like in that moment, to make those people real, can you imagine going to tell this king, who's probably drunk Mhmm. Hey, I know you asked us to go get the queen. And I know it wasn't a request. And we tried to get her to come, but we can't. So they're probably feeling like they're on the line because they're gonna get the king's aggression.
• 13:13
  And he was mad.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. He was really upset. And he was like, he didn't know what to do.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Because he's not getting his way. Exactly.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: And he's not used to that. And he's throwing
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: a fit. Mhmm.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: So he asks his advisors, what do I do? And his advisors literally tell him, you have to get rid of her. You have to punish her severely because if she gets away with saying no to you, all of the women in our kingdom are gonna see that example and think they can say no to their husbands.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: And this is why we know that this wasn't just a request that they made of her in private.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: This had to have been public. Right. Because other women must have heard her say, absolutely not. Mhmm.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of the end of her part of the story. She is taken off the throne. Bree did some research into this as well. She probably wasn't killed.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I looked up and to see, okay, what would have happened to her? Because the Bible isn't clear. It just says that her royal title was removed. But more than likely, she wasn't executed just based on the tone of Esther.
• 14:24
  It didn't seem very vengeful. It seemed like he was trying to make a point of her, but not really take her out. And also, there's historically, some people say that she may have been the great granddaughter of King Nebuchadnezzar. So that would have meant she came from a very powerful family. So executing someone who came from a powerful family like that would have been like a political making waves.
• 14:51
  It would cause some backlash. Right. So more than likely, she was soft exiled, which either means she just went to live in another royal residence or she was kept in the women's quarters Mhmm. Of that palace, which would have been the harem. And she still would have been taken care of.
• 15:10
  Like, her basic needs would have been taken care of, but she wouldn't have that royal title. Mhmm. And it's also possible that she was still considered one of his wives because the Persian kings were known to have multiple wives. Right.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: I find this super interesting because if you just read the book of Esther, her story is so quick. Like, you don't get a lot of that. But when you dig down into the historical context and what people believe about her and people who have studied that region, you know, and to find out, oh, well, she might have been the great granddaughter of king Nebuchadnezzar. I don't know. I just find that really cool to learn more about who she was, what happened to her, what her story was afterwards.
• 15:47
  And she actually reminds me a little bit of which wife was it of Henry the eighth? The one that did pretty good.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Oh. Oh. And and and Anne of Cleves. Anne of Cleves. That's right.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: She reminds me of Anne of Cleves who was the fourth wife of King Henry the
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: eighth. Mhmm.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: And if you don't know her story, she was the only one that well, I guess the last one outlived him. But the only wife that really came out of that situation good, she kind of negotiated her way into having her own palace and living a pretty good life. And I hope that's what happened for Vashti. Like, I hope she was kind of quietly sent away to another palace and life got better for her. We don't know that that happened.
• 16:31
  But I just hearing this little part of the story makes me wonder if maybe maybe God took care of her from here.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: You know? And I also think it was very brave of her. Mhmm. Because she knew exactly what she was doing. You don't say no to the king.
• 16:46
  Mhmm. The most powerful man. Not only is he the most powerful man, but you're a woman in this situation. You don't have a lot of rights. Mhmm.
• 16:55
  Yes. You're the queen, but that doesn't really matter. Right. So saying no and publicly saying no. And if you look back at the original Hebrew, they mentioned like, how this is so
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: here, let
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: me me look up the verse. Here, I got you. Don't worry. Here, I I've got it. Here, I've got it.
• 17:18
  Don't worry, I've got you.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Don't worry. I'm I'm becoming worried. Don't worry. I've got you.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Here. Don't worry. I'm becoming deeply So the key verse is Esther chapter one verse 12. It says, but queen Vashti refused to come at the king's command. But if you look at the original Hebrew, they would have understood that this just didn't mean refuse.
• 17:46
  This meant outright no. Mhmm. So if you take all of the original Hebrew and really get a good translation Mhmm. It would have sounded more like queen Vashti firmly refused to come in response to the king's official command delivered by his court officials. Mhmm.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I think when I have heard this story talked about and we're gonna get into some of the pastor quotes and the pop culture references about this. But when I have heard her referenced, it's kind of as though she's sassy and difficult and just wants her way. But the reality is she knew him. I don't think she was like a brand new wife, at least as far as we know. So she knew his character.
• 18:35
  We talk about people's character all the time. She knew the king's character. She knew who he was probably when he was drunk and when he was sober and at any moment of the day. And she knew the consequences of this choice. And she made it anyway.
• 18:53
  But when we talk about this story, obviously, like, the book is named Esther, so we focus on Esther, which is reasonable. But we focus on Esther and then make Vashti the villain. Because we like to have a villain in a story. And it's easy to make Vashti the villain because she is gone. Right?
• 19:15
  If she's the bad guy, she's not problematic anymore. She's like, toot toot. Get her out of here. Whereas if we turn the king into the bad guy, that makes Esther's story kind of problematic.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I also think that people in power like to stay in power, and this story questions that. Mhmm. It questions his authority over her. Mhmm. And she said no.
• 19:42
  Right. So if you wanna look at this from the traditional, very conservative Christian people Mhmm. They wouldn't consider her necessarily a good person. Right. Because she went against her husband's wishes.
• 19:57
  Right?
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Yep. I actually have a couple of quotes and references to some sermons from some different pastors referencing Vashti specifically. And one is from Matthew Henry. He says that this is an instance of pride and stubbornness. So blaming Vashti for making this choice.
• 20:18
  John MacArthur, very famous, very horrible pastor, he essentially framed her refusal as disobedience to her husband. She disobeyed. Therefore, she lost her title and power. That's what happens when you disobey your husband. And then Charles Swindoll emphasized that she lost her crown because she refused.
• 20:38
  So all of these things like, she set a bad example. This cost her everything.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Well, because to men who wanna keep their power, like, why would she give up the power that she did have? Right. Whereas she's saying, I don't care about this power right now. I care about my bodily autonomy. Mhmm.
• 20:57
  And that's more important to me. Right. My safety is more important to me. My ability to say no
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Is more important to me than this freaking crown. And what's funny is all of those men would likely say that a woman's body belongs to her husband, right, and modesty. And you other men shouldn't look lustfully at a woman and etcetera, etcetera. You know, like, the whole list of things.
• 21:23
  And yet when she refuses to do that, when she refuses to show off her body to other men, Now she's blamed for it. And the bible doesn't say this at all. There is nothing in the bible that blames her in any way, that puts her in a bad light. It's not even like, oh, we have to dig into the original text to understand. No.
• 21:47
  It's it's just not there.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: God never condemns her. Because if that part of
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: the story was important, it would be there. Right. It would say because of her disobedience to the king, he exiled her. He executed her. It's just it's not there.
• 22:06
  Mhmm.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: And I think the juxtaposition of how we treat women in stories like this versus how we treat men is really important. So I was thinking about other people in the bible who say no to the kings. Because it actually happens fairly often throughout the bible because political power and faith often go head to head. They're not supposed to be cozied up together, as we talk about all the time.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: But but our DOJ, right, just posted a whole religious Easter thing
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. That was Guys, did you see that? That was gross. The Department of Justice in The United States, if you're not in The US, posted a Facebook post today, and it was, like, about it was Jesus on the cross. And I don't know.
• 22:54
  This whole post first of all, what on earth? What does a government agency have doing posting something like that? But second, whoever designed that thing, they put a cross right where Jesus' boy parts would be. Right there. It's like someone designed it on Canva.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh. And they were like,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I don't know how it couldn't have been intentional. Someone hates them. That's what happened. Someone some intern was forced to create this, and they're like, you know what?
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: This is what we're doing. I'm gonna make this uncomfortable
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: for everybody. Like, it was bad. But anyway, beyond that, there's lots of instances in the Bible where people stand up to kings. And I was specifically thinking about Daniel. Now, the story of Daniel, I'm sure most of us are familiar with because we hear it all the time.
• 23:45
  Right? Mhmm. And basically, Daniel said no to the king. In Daniel's story, he the king at the time ends up making a law. He's tricked into making a law that people can't pray to anyone but him for thirty days.
• 24:01
  And Daniel, who believes in God, believes that he needs to be praying to God three times a day every day. And so he continues doing that. And the king doesn't want to, but winds up putting him in the lion's den.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: He's tricked by his officials
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Right. To do that. Yeah. And when we read that story, we give Daniel this label of, like, hero. He stood up for his faith.
• 24:31
  He stood up for God. He wouldn't turn his back on God even when his life was in danger, even when he knew he was gonna be he was
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: gonna die for this. He said no to the governing authorities.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Right. Because his faith was more important.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Because People nowadays like to throw that verse around willy nilly. Respect the governing authorities. Yada yada yada. But
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Daniel gets this hero story. He gets this hero arc because he stood up for God. And yet Vashti, who does a very similar thing. Now, likely she wasn't doing this for God because her faith likely wasn't the Jewish faith. But she was doing it for good reasons, for her bodily autonomy, for her safety.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Or if you think about, like, the values that we assign to women, like like you said before, modesty and for men not to lust after women. We have to we have to protect men so we can't show off our bodies.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Not that we're saying we agree with that. No. No. No. And yet she gets the villain arc.
• 25:54
  That's what she gets. And why? Even if we don't know her motivation is for God, we do know that her motivation was keeping herself safe. We do know that her motivation was, I don't wanna be exploited. He wasn't about to do something good.
• 26:18
  He was about to harm her and potentially others. So why does Daniel become this hero of the faith and Vashti becomes a stubborn, obstinate woman? Because it's easier. It's so much easier Mhmm.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: To turn women into a problem. Mhmm. Because anything that women do, from doing your nails to demonstrating your bodily autonomy is considered frivolous, waste of time, less important, less valuable. Anything women do.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: I think also there is, like, just sort of the story arc here. If you were to write this story, it becomes really complicated to make the king the bad guy. Because and I'm not gonna try to say his name. Brie, you wanna try again? Ahasuerus.
• 27:17
  Ahasuerus. Yeah. Because if he's the bad guy, it kind of messes up the way pastors preach this story. Because the way that this story is preached is like Esther doesn't want to follow what god wants her to do. But she does in the end, and then she's rewarded.
• 27:37
  She gets this big reward of getting to be queen. So the message is if you follow God, you will be rewarded, right? It seems pretty powerful. Unless it's more complicated than that, because the king sucks. Unless marriage is not a reward
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Right. For her. Right. The reward is saving the Jewish people. That is the reward.
• 28:05
  Right. And following through with what God asked of you. Mhmm. That's the reward.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. The reward is not a man. But we love to pretend that it is. And this title that she gets, she might get some power. She might get some say in things.
• 28:22
  But if this was Vashti's life before, where she was actively afraid of her husband, where she had to say no in a really bad situation, we can't assume that Esther now has this loving, wonderful marriage. Right? We also like
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: to put today's culture onto bible times. This is a time when women were property. Right. Even if she was a royal. So in her life, he's not going to be a nice, loving, kind
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Husband. Right. He's the king. Mhmm. And you're one of his probably many wives.
• 28:58
  Mhmm. But we
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: love to make the bible so simple that each story can be told in a twenty to thirty minute sermon.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's not romantic. Calm down.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: If we make him the villain, then her story isn't just a follow god, get a reward story. It's tricky because it's follow god, still save your people, like, do amazing things, be known throughout history, but then maybe have a really difficult life. Then maybe still have to live with the consequences of being the person who stepped up. And that doesn't fit nicely into a happy twenty minute sermon.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I think also that calls into question, oh, we have to ask something of men too in the story. You can't just willy nilly it's inappropriate to ask your wife to do that. Mhmm. It's inappropriate to assume that every command that you ever think of, your wife should follow. Yep.
• 29:59
  You have to respect your wife Mhmm. And her wishes? What? Yeah.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. If he's the bad guy, what does that do to the Theobros that are attacking my comment section right now? If he's the bad guy, so much of their faith structure has to fall apart.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Also, you wanna talk about, like, submission in the marriage. Mhmm. Right? Esther wasn't really doing that. No.
• 30:27
  She was very sneakily influencing Right. The king Right. To fulfill God's plan. Mhmm. But for for her wishes.
• 30:36
  Right? She's manipulating him. But that's what
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: and I think we've talked about this before in reference to Bree's small group with all the divorcees that we've talked about many times. And that is kind of what Christian women teach each other. Now, I don't think Christian men are aware of this. So if you're not, let me just open your eyes real quick. There's a phrase that came out of My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
• 31:03
  Yeah. And I'm sure it's been said many times before, but that's where I know it from. And the crazy aunt, she goes, the man may be the head, but the woman is the neck that turns the head. So essentially, he might be the leader, but you tell him where to look. You tell him what to do.
• 31:19
  And Christian women teach each other that because they don't actually have any power in their marriages, they have to be sneaky and manipulative to get the things that they need out of life. Like, in my silly little small group. And I
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: know I've said this before, but this woman was like, well, you need to give the husband little silly decisions to make that you really don't care about. So that then when the big decisions come up, you can say, oh, have more influence. But let him make these little decisions because it'll make him feel like a man or feel like he has power when he doesn't actually. And also, wanna talk about head in the Bible. That was nasty.
• 32:03
  And I've said this a lot in our comment section. We've talked about this before. But head doesn't mean what we think it does today. In the Bible, had nothing to do with hierarchy or command. It meant source.
• 32:18
  Mhmm. Which is, I feel like, funny because the source of all life is God. Right?
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: So we should be following God. The point is if we really dig into this story, it doesn't say good things for the patriarchal Christians. No. Because Vashti's not the bad guy. The king is the bad guy.
• 32:38
  The person that needs to be responsible is the king, and he's not. Vashti gets punished for his bad behavior, and we see that happen to women all the time. We're seeing it happen to women now. And Esther manipulates her husband.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Now, God told her to. Yeah. She was following God. No shade to Esther. But she still is not being some you're right.
• 33:03
  Some little submissive wife. God wouldn't have caused her to sin.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. God would not have asked that of her. Right. So we must assume that that's not a sin. Mhmm.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, look. We took apart submission in one episode. Hiya.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Good for us.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: We can just be done. Quit now while we're ahead. Okay. So I also wanted to talk a little bit about VeggieTales, which I find okay. I know this is stupid a little bit, but
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I think this is actually really important. I think it is important because as young Christian kids, that's where we were learning a lot of our bible stories from. Now they messed them up a lot. Like, we've talked about
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Beth
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Sheba. Beth Sheba was not a a woman. Was A rubber ducky. She was a rubber duck. But we did hear a lot of our, like, basic bible stories from VeggieTales.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Right. Now, I haven't seen this one in a while, but I actually was talking to my daughter about it too, and she helped me with it a little bit. But VeggieTales did, like, one of their little movies on Esther specifically. And the story prepare yourselves for this. The story goes that the king asked Vashti to make him a sandwich.
• 34:22
  Can I just k? I didn't know that. I was, like, researching. I was like, oh, I remember this Esther. I wonder what they said about it.
• 34:31
  So I was, like, looking stuff up. And I was talking to my daughter about it, and she goes, oh, yeah. Because she wouldn't make him a sandwich. Right? That was why queen Vashti, like, got removed or whatever.
• 34:40
  I was like, She's like, yeah. That's what VeggieTales said. I was
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: like, How did that get approved? Because in that, it's saying she was punished because she didn't make her husband a sandwich. That's what we're going to Yeah. That's the hill we're gonna die on. My gosh.
• 35:00
  It was a choice. It was a choice. It was a sexist remark.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: In a VeggieTales about a woman. Like, it's it's about Esther. It can't be male centric. And yet, here we are being so incredibly sexist. It was like they had to just at least throw something in there just to make their little awful hearts feel better.
• 35:26
  But anyway, so in this context, she is it like, nothing overtly negative is necessarily said about her, but she is definitely shown as being, like, stubborn, annoying. She's just trying to she's trying to get her own way. She's not being a good wife.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Right. Because a good wife would make him a sandwich.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Right. And think of the implication there too. Not a lot is being asked of her. All that's being asked of her in this version is make a sandwich. Now, let's forget the sexist undertones for a minute.
• 36:01
  And that wouldn't be difficult. It wouldn't take a lot of time. It would show care for the other person. It would be something that a normal partner might do for the other. And that's what she's refusing to do in this story that we're telling to kids.
• 36:18
  Now I know we have to soften it, but that's how she's presented. I won't do something for you that is simple, that I have every ability to do, and that would show my love for you.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: I also understand that VeggieTales is for children. And it's silly. And there's silly songs with Larry's and they're vegetables. Like, I understand that. But there is also a problem in the telling of these stories to make these characters out to be not what they are.
• 36:48
  Right. You know? Like, it's okay to tell kids. The king asked something of his wife that was inappropriate. Mhmm.
• 36:58
  And she said no. You don't have to say what that was, but I think it's important to not make her out to be the bad guy when she is not.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, you could compare it to something much more serious. Yeah. He asked her
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: to cut off her asparagus.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: What? That sounded really dirty.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: He asked her to peel her carrot.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Okay. It's getting worse.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Well, you give me this reference and then vegetables. Okay?
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: I didn't say we needed to come up with options.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Well, that's why I'm not a writer on VeggieTales.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: I don't think anyone is having to cancel it.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: It was on Netflix for a while, and
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: there was bacon. There was bacon. It was very strange. That's not a veggie. I'm very certain.
• 37:44
  No. But anyway, I think we indoctrinate kids so young with this stuff. And it's so important to see it. Because once you open your eyes to it, like, you can't close them again. And you need to see what's being taught to your kids, to your friends' kids, to any children around you because this is the raising up of the next generation of Christians.
• 38:08
  And do we wanna raise up what we're seeing in the Christian world right now? Because I don't want more of this. Hard pass. I want better for the church. Because if what I'm seeing in the political sphere and on, my gosh, social media, If that's the church, no one wants it.
• 38:30
  That's why we don't see people converting from atheism or from non churchgoing into Christianity. It's just not happening.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: I'm so confused by Christians in general. How do you not see that your outreach is hateful. Mhmm. That people are looking at you and thinking, I want nothing to do with you. Yeah.
• 39:00
  How do you not then look inward and say, okay, something we're doing is wrong. Mhmm. Because Jesus lived his life in a very different way than what I am. I watched this TikTok the other day. There was two groups of people, and it was conservatives and liberals.
• 39:19
  And the debate was which group of people shows Jesus' love more. And the conservative group of people, one of the members said, well, I love people so much that I need to point out their wrongdoings. I can't let them live that way. And because I love them so much, even though it hurts, I have to tell them the truth. I have to speak truth into them.
• 39:45
  But you don't see Jesus necessarily doing this. He says, neither do I condemn you. Mhmm. Right? He says, accept the foreigner, feed the people.
• 39:57
  He heals people. He touches people that everybody else would not touch. That is love. And that is what's going to reach people. Mhmm.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: I think the Christian church has really tried to redefine love as exactly what you said. But just because you've decided that love means shouting someone's sin in their faces doesn't make it true. That doesn't make it true.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: And if that person doesn't feel that as love, if they feel that as judgment and rejection and shame, you're never gonna reach them. Right. And Jesus' love, it emanates from him.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: We know that through reading the four gospels. Jesus has this magnetic personality. Right? He walks through a town, and 5,000 people follow him because he emanates something. It's not just, like, god magic.
• 40:56
  No. People see him, and they know that's something that I want. I want to be close to this presence because this presence is love. The church is not bringing in 5,000 random people. There are certainly churches that have that many people, but they're mostly people who grew up in faith.
• 41:22
  They're not converts. They're not new Christians. They're people largely, and we've talked about this stat before. It's like 1% are people that didn't grow up in church. The church doesn't have a magnetic personality.
• 41:38
  The church wouldn't walk through town and have 5,000 people follow after it. So the church has defined love wrong. Don't just go with what you've always known. Don't just say the thing the church has said at you 45 times. Look at Jesus.
• 41:56
  Read the scripture yourself and say, what who is he? I wanna know his character. I wanna know him. And what the heck am I missing?
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Because there's a lot of things that pastors aren't telling you. Yes. And that's important to note. Pastors are people who should have gone to study the original language of the Bible.
• 42:17
  Mhmm. Who should know the historical context of these stories and be able to share that with you. Mhmm. And be able to say, this is what the King James version says. This is what the NLT says.
• 42:28
  This is what the NIV says. Okay. But this is what the original text said. Mhmm. And historically, this is what this would have meant at that time.
• 42:37
  Mhmm. And this is why it's radical. Because I feel like so much of the Bible and Christians today, they wanna just slap our culture into the Bible and not realize, no, Jesus was showing radical love to these people because this was not normal Right. At the time. When we first started doing this podcast, there was a part of
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: me that was like, I mean, in a year, are we gonna have anything else to talk about?
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: And then the world blew up. And then
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: the world blew up. But even without that, look how much you can dig into four verses. We're sitting here for an hour talking about a woman whose name is mentioned a couple of times, realistically, like a couple of times. But her story is really important, and you never hear about it. Your pastor is never telling you about it because she's problematic.
• 43:31
  And that's an issue. That's why certain people don't feel comfortable in church. That's why I have walked in and out of countless churches saying the same thing. I don't feel safe here. As a woman, I don't feel safe here.
• 43:52
  I don't feel like this church is living out the life and teachings of Jesus. Mhmm. Exactly. And, I mean, let's pull Vashti's story. Let's pull her story into the twenty first century, here in 2026.
• 44:09
  Let's say that you're Vashti, man or woman.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: I don't care. Vashti sounds gender neutral. Sure. Let's say
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: it is. And your boss is telling everyone that you're at, like, a Christmas party or something. Not not even a hundred and eighty day party. Just a Christmas party. And he's like, oh, Vashti over there is the most beautiful employee we have.
• 44:35
  Just incredible looking. You guys all have to see her. Calls you over and says, parade around so they can all see you. Like, all the executives, you know, whatever. Parade around so they can admire your body.
• 44:49
  And then not only does that happen, you complain about it to HR, and they're like, no. He's in charge. And then they send an email to the company and say, never question his authority. Because this wasn't just her husband. This was her
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: boss. Mhmm.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: This was everybody's boss. This is the CEO of the company. What do you do in this scenario? Not just like, oh, I feel pressure to keep my job. But what do you do morally in this scenario?
• 45:20
  Because that's what happened to her. Now I'm not saying this doesn't happen to women. No. Mhmm. But that's what happened to her.
• 45:29
  Would you say no if you could? She did. She did. And if I heard this story today, would applaud that woman so much for the bravery of saying no. And I applaud Vashti so much for the bravery of saying no and not knowing what would come after.
• 45:48
  Not knowing what life looked like literally ten minutes from now. He could have sent an assassin at her.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: She would have had to know. Like, the worst that could happen to me is he kills me. Mhmm. And this is worth me saying no. That's some bold moves for her.
• 46:06
  Yeah. She's a strong woman. And this is what we talk about with biblical womanhood. She wasn't being submissive. Mhmm.
• 46:15
  She wasn't being quiet. She wasn't being meek. She very boldly, outright told her husband and the king, no. I wanted to add some more creative language, but I didn't.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You basically said no, but with an accent.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. But she's in the Bible. She's in the Bible. And she's not condemned for what she did. Like, the king, yes, did take away her title.
• 46:41
  But Jesus didn't. Well, that's
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: a human consequence. And the reality of just like if you have this story in 2026, that woman may lose her job. She very well might, and she doesn't know what comes next. And that's scary, and that's why there's risk. But Jesus didn't say, don't do that thing.
• 47:02
  God didn't punish her. Humanity did because humans kinda suck. And I think another thing that's important too is a lot of times when you do have a story about women in this culture, in patriarchal Christianity, you can't have too many women. You know? Like, it's just it was one too many women in this story.
• 47:23
  And so if you've got to focus on Esther and I would like to point out that a lot of times we don't focus on Esther. We focus on Mordecai or we focus on the king. But you can't have too many women. And so Vashti gets cut as, like, this kind of unimportant villainous side character.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Cut for time. Yeah.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We just don't talk about her. But she's important. And Esther is important too. There are two very strong women in this story.
• 47:51
  There are two women who stand up to the patriarchy, who stand up to the king, and who say, I'm better than this. No more. No. Thank you. And it's important to tell both of their stories.
• 48:06
  And so we will because that's our job. And you sit here for it because you love us, I think. I hope. So a good transition into what Brie wants to talk about next week and for a few weeks in the future. We've been kind of going through a couple of women of the bible, but Brie had a really good idea.
• 48:28
  So we're gonna pivot a little bit and talk about the things that your pastor doesn't wanna talk about. And they're the difficult stories, like, kinda like Vashti. And then we'll talk about some concepts like women in leadership and submission, some of which we've already done episodes on. But, you know, you gotta keep talking about this stuff. Well,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: also, you're often when for example, submission. When that's preached on, we're not digging into the historical context of the day. Right. We're not digging into the original language. What does that really mean?
• 49:08
  And yes, we've talked about this before. And if you really want to, can go back and listen to that one, and then listen to our new one. Sassier now. See, you can compare and contrast. But these are things that your pastor should know and should be teaching you and is not Mhmm.
• 49:25
  Normally. Right.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: And I can't wait to read some of the really spectacular comments that we've gotten from the internet. Because I think good men, if we have many male listeners out there, I don't really know, but good men don't necessarily know what's being taught to women. They don't necessarily see the amount of oppression coming from the church. And you'll hear things like, we don't really need feminism anymore because women have the same rights as men. Or we don't need feminism because men are supposed to take care of their wives, and so they're fine, they're safe, they're whatever.
• 50:07
  But then you read some of these comments and you see what some people really actually believe about women. How little they value women. How much they are willing to take that authority at any cost and make sure that the woman is crushed under their heel.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Go ahead and jump on our socials because we made a post today just of a few comments Mhmm. On they were on the submission reel and also on the women in leadership reel. And it's just hilarious to me to see how desperate Mhmm. Men are to maintain their power. Yeah.
• 50:46
  And if anybody questions that, they lash out. Yes. I've I've made the Internet I think I said
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: this last week. I've made the Internet very angry. And I don't do it to make them angry. First of all, our Instagram following is very small. I didn't expect this.
• 51:00
  But also, it really shouldn't be rage bait to say equality, love, welcome foreigner.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Like, these aren't wild concepts that I made up, especially for Christian people. Right. And it's the people who claim to be Christian Mhmm. That are lashing out the most. Yep.
• 51:21
  My gosh. I could get really into this now.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: Well, we will. We'll work on it next week.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I'll reel it in.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's definitely the Christians that are the angriest with us. Yeah. And that's interesting. That's, I think, a concept I wanna dig into and what circles we now feel safe and comfortable in after after the podcast, after kind of going through this deconstruction journey.
• 51:47
  Because I rarely feel comfortable around most Christians. And that's sad. It's sad, and it's eye opening. Mhmm. So we'll talk about some of that for the next couple of weeks.
• 52:01
  I think that'll be a really interesting series, so invite your friends. Follow us on social media. You can find us on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook if you just search the hashtag we are more. And we will talk to you all about that next week. Go
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: disrupt the patriarchy. Power to the people. Alright. Love you. Bye.
• 52:22
  Bye. Love you.