Latest / Leading in Change / Communicating in Change: How to Communicate Big Shifts in Org Strategy (Part 2)
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- Communicating in Change Part 2 Audio: Change used to feel like a one-time event. Something you managed and led through, then came out the other side. But we are not living in that world anymore, and change is constant now. That means the job isn't leading through it, it's learning to lead in it. So how do you actually do that? That's what this show is all about. I'm Adrian, a partner and consultant at Success Labs, and this is the Leading in Change podcast. And every episode we dig into the real questions leaders are wrestling with right now. Everything from delegating effectively when the target keeps moving to managing your career in the age of AI. Topics are coming directly from our clients, listeners, and leaders just like you. If you want to lead your people well and manage effectively in the chaos, you're in the right place. Let's get to it. Hi, I'm Adrian. And I'm Devin. And this is the Leading in Change podcast. And today we are going to have part two of our conversation around communicating in change. So part one was with Melissa and we were really talking about the one on one mechanics of how do you as an individual leader communicate and change. But now with Devin, today we're gonna dig into okay, bigger picture stepping back. How do you communicate and change at with your team at the organizational level? What are some of the things that we see leaders getting right and some of the things that we see leaders maybe getting wrong or that they could do better? Sound good? Yeah. Let's start with an icebreaker. Yes. What do you think is the best sauce? Like general sauce, like a sauce, like a dipping sauce or whatever. I kind of like a like a chili like a chili sauce or maybe like an Asian like an Asian sauce, like a sweet and sour, or those are kind of would be my go-tos. Yeah, those are good. Those are good sauces. What's your what's your favorite sauce? I'm a sauce fanatic, dude. so probably my favorite sauce is this sriracha barbecue. I l I could put a sriracha barbecue on like everything. And I kind of make my own version of it with some goju jang and some soy sauce and then like a you know, I'll add like something else in. Anything. Potatoes. I'll put it on like a scramble. I'll put it on, you know, literally whatever you want. It's good. I get that. I'm kind of like sweet sauce, sweet hot. Yeah. That's kind of a that's kind of the the a thing. Okay. Now I'm hungry. Okay, so we're talking about communicating in change. And one of the things that you have said is that change changes what people need. And so what does that mean to you? And what does that mean in the context of communicating as a leader in change? During change, bottom line is people are very hyper aware. They are trying to figure out like, how does this impact me? What does this mean for me? What do I have to gain or lose by what's happening around me? And When we talk about change, it can be anything from, you know, a a merger and acquisition to technology imp implementation. I mean, even little changes can seem like big things when they disrupt your work or your relationships or you're worried about what's gonna happen. And so I think what that means for communication is that, or for us as leaders, is that we need to be aware, aware that what we say and what we don't say and how we say it and the eyes on us that really are affect people and we are letting them know by the things we do and don't do whether they should be scared or worried or excited. And I think we often miss that. We forget how much people are keying off of how we're showing up. And especially when things are uncertain or there's lots of change or there's lots of unknown. Yeah. So when you say keying off, what I hear in that, tell me if this is what you mean is You're kind of under microscope. Your your visibility is amplified. So one of the things that a a mentor used to meet say to me is your mood is the weather of your organization. So if you're showing up stressed, it's gonna make other people think, what are they stressed about? What do they know that I don't know? Is that kind of what you mean? Yes. And, you know, even not saying anything, right? Like we can think, I'm not saying anything. So, you know, everything's good. No news is good news. Yeah, but silence is not neutral, right? It can it can make people feel all kinds of things. If you're not visible, if you're not talking, if there's no information, all those are still signals. Yeah. And we think, well, if I'm not doing something, well then everything's neutral. I'm nothing's moving one way or another, but absolutely what happens in a vacuum of information, what happens in silence, what happens when there people aren't visible, is that right, speculation, assumptions often worse than anything that's actually going on. That's absolutely right. I mean, that's my experience is that silence a l people fill the silence with something, right? And oftentimes it's doom and gloom, you know, it's very rarely a a good thing. How do you find the balance between overcommunicating and maybe going too silent? I don't know. think it would be what would be overcommunication. And in some cases, what might feel like overcommunication to you might be just the right amount for someone else. I I read recently, you know, if you're sick of hearing it or saying it, people are probably just now starting to get it. And that's often because the first time people hear something, they can't really fully con consume it or figure it out because they right away are Or kind of in that mode where they're just trying to figure out what does this mean for me. Yeah. And the rest of that they really haven't gotten to. So saying messages in multiple ways and multiple mediums is often really good. What is that saying? the biggest assumption of communication is what the biggest challenge of communication is the assumption that it's actually happened. And if you're saying to yourself, well, we sent an email, you Probably need more. And I think it's more about the ways that it gets communicated. Maybe it is some sort of global message, but then that might need to be followed up with something in writing. It might need to be followed up with smaller conversations with the supervisors and with the teams. So that message kind of goes all the way down to where it needs to happen. Yeah. And I think we err on the side of. under communication more than we err on the side of communication, especially in change. And there's a lot of different reasons for that. Partly it's because like, what am I gonna say? I don't know anything. I don't have all the answers. Yeah. So a few things you said that stuck out to me. One, I I I'm gonna get the numbers wrong. So I'm gonna use gener general n numbers because I can't remember the specifics. But I remember reading that let's say that it used to take hearing something 10 times to get it to stick in someone's head. Since the advent of social media, they've been kind of measuring this and now it it's a hundred times. The n the number of times that people have to hear something for it to really stick has gone up exponentially. And it's in part because our attention span is divided in so many ways. We are always on. So we don't have that reset time to really let our brains recalibrate in the same way that people used to be able to kind of log off from work. So now because people are so inundated, you really do have to say things way more than you think. to get it to really stick. The other thing that you said that stuck out to me is thinking about the multiple channels of communication, right? I see so many organizations say, well, we sent an email, will we set it in all hands? We all know that that's not gonna stick, right? And so one of the things that I used to do when I was leading a big technology implementation, I would think about all the different channels I could be communicating this in. I would have a Pop-up box when people logged into the software that was like under construction. Here's all the updates we've made in the past week. And it was like a up a status update note. And then I would send a an email to my team. And then we would also have an update in the team meeting. And then I would also give an update in the all hands. And I would have a standing agenda item in my one on ones to touch in and see what questions people had. So trying to find all these different channels for making sure people are hearing it through their lens, because you just don't know what's going to stick with for somebody. Right. Some people are gonna read that email every word, and some people are gonna be like, What email? Yeah. Right? Like, I just skimmed that. It didn't have an exclamation point. So I didn't look at it. Right. Yeah, and I think that's that is important. And you know, why don't we do it? I mean, it's no fun, especially when we're communicating things we know people might be challenged by, or like, we'll say it once and then we'll just stop saying it. That way we won't have to deal with it. We don't have to deal with people's emotions. Questions. Yeah. You know, it's So what do you say if you're coaching somebody that you think maybe is avoiding the hard thing because it's uncomfortable? I think it's very common to retreat or to not put yourself out there when there's a lot of change, you know, walking through, making rounds, going out on the plant floor, whatever those things are, because well, there's a couple of reasons. One, it's What am I going to say that hasn't already been said? And people are going to have lots of questions, maybe that I won't know how to answer, or people might be upset. And how will I deal with that? And so I just don't want to deal with it because I don't feel very equipped to deal with it. And what happens is those things are happening anyway and causing distress and people are getting worked up. Yeah. Great thing is that sometimes people just want you to listen. You don't really have to do anything. The second thing I I would say is that communication should be two ways. Just because I'm broadcasting something doesn't mean there shouldn't be, right? There should be a conversation on the other end. And that means sometimes listening to people and their frustrations and their worries and their concerns. And that is actually good information to have. The reason why it's good information to have is that if you understand that there's, you know, confusion, well then you can remedy that. Yeah. If people are worried about things, maybe they don't need to maybe that particular thing they don't need to worry about. And you can reassure them, you can also bring that information back up to the leadership in the organization and say, hey, people are really worried about this or I don't think they got this message. We need to reiterate that. But also you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have all the information. You just have to say, understand, tell me what's going on. Do you have any ideas for this? All those things are okay. So people need it it reassures people to see that the leaders are willing to be around. Yeah. And just that makes them feel like, well, if they're here and they're talking and they're we're talking about it, it couldn't be that bad. Yeah. But when people pull away, they start going like it must be really bad. That's right. Like it must be awful. We haven't seen them in a long time. I mean, that's one of the biggest mistakes that I see leaders making in high change, especially new leaders. I remember we both were working with a CEO who was new to an organization. And in some an employee feedback survey, they talked about how he never left his office, you know, and he would never get up and out. And they were like, What is this about? Is he you know, people were cut Spinning conspiracy theories about what this meant, trying to interpret this behavior. It must be bad if he doesn't want to come out and talk to us, right? And and in his mind, he was like, I just want to look hardworking, right? So you've got to understand that when you're in that leadership role, visible is not just showing up to the office and going to your office. It's you've got to a little bit walk the floors, you've got to get FaceTime with your employees, you've got to have. Team gatherings, you know, the more visible is really critical. Right. And I know exactly what you're talking about. And that was also a new leader often want is driving change. And that was a leader that wanted things to be different and was introducing a lot of new ideas and concepts and ways of working. And so that in combination, lots of change, but not very much visibility, is, you know, quite challenging. Yeah. I think that you said something that made me think of this, and that is sometimes when you'll challenge a leader and say, Well, you know, you need to get up and out, here's what they'll tell me. I mean, they know they can come to me. I have an open door policy. I hate that. I mean they do. I do. But they're like, they know they can meet with me anytime. And I'm like, I know that you think that, but the truth is they are not you are their boss. They are not gonna bother you. They're gonna feel like it's an intrusion. you looking busy, right, and intense, I promise you they are not gonna come in because they don't want to bother you. And so it's willful ignorance of the power dynamics of an organization. And I feel like you have to be so acutely aware of the power dynamics of an organization, period, but especially in change, because I feel like, you know, in that instance. N number one, you're exactly right. Employees are not gonna come to the boss's big corner office where everybody can see. And like, what if you he's on a call and you get sent away? Like, or she's on a call, they are on a call and you get sent away, right? That that's nobody's gonna subject themselves to that potential risk, right? so that's number one. But you know, number two, the team assumes that they aren't important enough. You know, you've got to think from their perspective of if If I was valuable, they would be coming to me. So I must not be high value enough, you know, because you're making decisions about where you spend your time. the other thing that stuck out about what you said is s s a a mentor once said to me, You can change culture or you can change process, but it's really hard to change culture and process at the same time. And this is someone who i you know, talking about this same leader was really Culturally changing things and dramatically changing the way the organization operated. And I think doing both at once is really hard. So if you're in an organization where you're driving a lot of process change and technological change and organizational change, I mean totally different organizational structures were happening, you probably need to not rock the boat on the culture, right? Keep the annoying family lunch and learn thing going or keep the Even though you don't think it's great. Even though you don't care about it. Don't disrupt ritual and tr and some ritual and tradition does not need to be disrupted. Yeah. And that's another thing that happens during change is often you leave behind things that have been touchstones or flagship kind of events. And and especially if that change is coming because the belt's being tightened or things like that, people will start pulling back on Little things that honestly don't cost that much. And they'll think, well, we're showing them that we can tighten our belt during change. So it wouldn't be good for us to have the the the July 4th hot dog party. And it's like that's the one thing that's given people jewelry, you know? And you're just like, sir, ma'am, that that fifteen hundred dollars for the for the hot dog party does not budget break, right? Like or whatever. Maybe it's more than that. But we're really not talking about. So I think being careful about the things that you leave behind during change and what can you hold on to is probably also a good way to think. You shouldn't disrupt team traditions. If you can keep those things up, if they're not if it doesn't seem too crazy to keep those things up, but I find people are too, too quick to make a point by disrupting something. And it almost adds insult to injury, right? There's enough. What can we hold on to that makes us who we are? Yeah. And I I think that's another thing about change. It's like these are the things that change that are changing. And you and I were talking about this earlier. But sometimes I think we forget to communicate what's not changing because often there's a lot of things that aren't changing. Like what's still true, what's not changing? Yeah. What are the things you don't have to worry about? Yeah. So I I mean, let me say the flip side of that, and I'll come back to what's not changing in second. You know, you said y you know, this hot dog party isn't gonna break the budget in that example, right? I mean, I don't think I've also I've also been in organizations w that were going through layoffs or going through, you know, really tightening the budget to accommodate a big technology transition or expansion into a new market or something. But then they kept some really frivolous, flashy things that people were like, I don't want another pizza party. I want to keep my job or whatever. So what do you say when that dynamic's at play? I mean, I think that's, you know, thank you for bringing that up because that is something to consider. Absolutely. And I think it mean it's it's the kind of change, right? Absolutely. If people are affected, if you're talking about big layoff, that that's the change we're talking about. I think you have to think differently. But I think that things that might mean more are being really visible about the fact that the executives are not going to take bonuses this year. Thousands like to like make some changes that actually align with probably what your values are on the website. And you know, you can even communicate that. You can say we are making some changes and we are taking some hits to the budget, but we want to make sure that we all also have time together. And so we're not going to do this, but we are going to keep this this year. Yeah. Right. And it may be that you're not going to have the the fifty thousand dollar holiday party, but you're going to still keep the since we're using the example of the Fourth of July hot dog party, right? Like we're going to keep this little thing that we do, or we're not going to do this this year, but we are going to do a snowball, you know, truck. and also we're doing these other things because we acknowledge that we're in a in a budget, but we're gonna do these little things. So I think you know there's lots of ways to handle that. It absolutely it is a it it varies by situ what is the change in the organization, but other kinds of changes, you know, people resent it when you're like, well we're putting this big technology in, so nothing for you this year. Yeah. And that sort sort of seems right. And again, you probably do need to pay for that, but how you handle that and what you do and what decisions you make become really important. So people versus we need money for this giant project. Maybe there's something in between there. But I think the big thing is just being thoughtful about in the midst of change, what's real things that need to happen and what do you need to pause a little bit and say and be thoughtful about how will people react to it. Yeah. And you know, the other part of this is change is hard and you're not gonna make everybody happy. And people will experience loss in some way. And I'm not even talking about job loss. I'm talking about just loss of. you know, expertise, loss of you know, rel the way the relationships work and communication works and maybe loss of a project. You know, I'm working with an organization that is shifting their entire strategy, you know, in light of this data center boom. They are realigning their kind of development priorities towards capitalizing on that new market. Well, that's creating some irrelevance for another team that has historically driven a lot of revenue for the organization. And so you can tell there's a sense of loss there, of loss of stature, loss of relevance, loss of, you know, I think direction for that team. And so that's when I think leaders need to be so much more intentional. Like you don't want to lose those people. You don't want them to go elsewhere. You know, what if this new play doesn't work out? You still need your bread and butter to be solid, right? Right. And so what are the ways that you shore that up? I I think this is where communicating early and often and connecting things back to the vision of the organization, the purpose, values, alignment, you know, all of those things I think are really important. And saying, here's how we're going to continue to support you. Even though this isn't the organization's top priority right now, you still really matter, you know? And a lot of organizations don't t take the time to do that second part. They roll out the big flashy thing and then they kind of don't think about the people who are impacted by that in a negative way. You know, I'm thinking back to our podcast on AI and just thinking about in the new in the new way of doing things. It doesn't how do we? rethink that yes, this team might be less relevant because they do this this one thing, but how do you take that knowledge? How do you take what they do and incorporate them back in the organization in other ways? And yeah, so it's a whole nother podcast, but thinking about how to use and deploy and a team, what does change mean for people? Does it always mean just we're doing this thing and This ends and this ends, but how do you how do you think about the whole thing? Yeah. I mean, bringing this back to communication, what that looks like for me is talking to the teams themselves. You know, I think that the practitioners that are closest to the work are the ones who can best inform what skills they have that could be transferable, that could be redeployed to create value for the organization that leadership may not be privy to or may not see or understand. And I think so often in change. Leadership feels like they need to have all the answers. And I think what's critical to remember is you've got to be getting feet, it's got to be a two-way loop. I think you said that a second ago. That involving people and saying, okay, here's what we're doing. How do we need to do this? You guys are the expert. People feel lost, right? During change. They are like, how does this impact me? What do I lose? Again, you know, that's the first thing we think about. But when you focus people and you say, look, what we do, big picture isn't changing. How we get there might change. We are going in this direction or we're putting this thing in, but we still deliver babies. We still, you know, put in big, manufacturing operating systems, we still, you know, provide financial services to people. Like that hasn't changed. How we get there might need to change. You, you know, we need you. I need you to focus on this. I need you to figure out how how AI gets incorporated into this process without losing the customer. They know the best. And if you focus people and they have something to do, it really helps. Yeah. If they are not focused, they get disconnected from purpose. If you're not channel challenge channeling their energy towards something productive, it makes everything worse. Because if I'm busy and I have a purpose in this change, it helps a whole lot. It helps a whole whole lot. Absolutely. Making people feel like they have a role. So one of the things you've said is listen, involve, and respond in change. So what does that mean in this context? Don't make that communication one way. Make sure that you are listening to how people feel. In some cases, if they need if there's an opportunity for them to be part of what happens, great. There's not sometimes decisions have been made. And it doesn't matter. Like they can give all the input they want, the decisions have been made. But when you can include them, do include them. Even if they haven't been included and the change comes down, you listen. Involve is just what we talked about. Okay. Let's all make a plan for how we're gonna do this. What does this mean for our team and department? How do we wanna approach this? Here's what we need from everyone. And the last piece was Involve. Involve listen, involve, respond. Respond when you can respond with something. Sometimes you do have the answer. Sometimes you do know. And you can share that. And that's where you get to you might have questions, you're listening to people, and you're able to say. Here's what I know. Here's what I don't know. And that trust in that leader that when I do know, I will let you know. Yeah. And that's the piece. How do you main trust? How do you maintain trust when sometimes you can't say the whole say everything when maybe you don't even agree with some of the things that are happening? That's a whole nother conversation about change. I mean, two things on that. that I have personal experience with both in a coaching capacity and in, you know, just being an employee, you know, being privy to information that's going to impact significantly the work and lives of others. And I'm not just talking layoffs, although that's al always a good example. You know, I remember during COVID, everybody was like, are we going remote or we not? Like if we're what's gonna be happening? Are what are we coming back to the office? Are we not? You know, the same thing happens with reorgs, aligning around a new strategy. You know, there's ripple. Well, I heard this team's gonna get absorbed by this team. I heard this person's gonna report over here now. And you may have context that you can't share, right? But I've always defaulted to being the maximum amount of transparency that I think is fair and right without betraying the information that I have am privy to. So what that looks like, you know, if you know there's some kind of org restructure coming, but you can't say exactly what, you can say. I personally think, and I'd love to hear what you think. I I would say, look, I'm hearing the same things that you are. I think there is a good chance that we do r restructure the way the organization works. What I can tell you is I value the work that you do and I'm going to be a strong advocate for our team. And I I know that no matter what changes come, we're going to have a solid footing because of the impact that we make to XYZ goal or XYZ bottom line, right? Try to instill confidence in your leadership to be an advocate for that team. Because what are they really worried about? They're worried about somebody's not going to be looking out for me. They're worried they're going to be left on the chopping block. They're worried their work isn't gonna be understood by the people making the decisions. So as much as you can say, I know what you do, I promise I'm gonna represent you well. I think that in those kinds of conversation matter. I I'd curious what you'd say to that. No, I think I think a hundred percent. I think you're you're you know, gonna get people with questions and what's happening. And sometimes you do have information that you're like, and it's killing you because you're like, these are my people, these are my friends, these are my colleagues, and what I'm in a position that I can't let them know. And in some cases, it may even be people that you worked alongside of, they're your peers, they're your they're your buddies and friends. So I think being authentic, but not abdicating your leadership is the line that you're trying to walk. And it is a hard line, right? And it you know, I understand why you're asking. And there are some things I can't discuss right now because sometimes you do know. Yeah. And I don't want to speculate or give you information that wouldn't be right that wouldn't be accurate or that isn't out there yet. But what I can tell you is what I know today. Yeah. And what I'd like us to focus on right now, that I think is always gonna be the right thing, is what's next. And know that I'm gonna share as soon as I know or as soon as I can share. Yeah. And I think that's all that you can do, and that's still gonna maybe, but at least you're being honest. I was working with the leader the other day and she was knew something early, knew that. this particular part of the business would was potentially gonna be acquired. And they were all okay, but they no longer work for this organization when it was over. And she was upset because she was like, I feel like I worked really hard to build trust. And I feel like these people, they don't want to talk to me. Like they're really mad at me because they feel like I knew something and didn't tell them and I couldn't tell them. Yeah. And she was struggling because she was taking it really personally and I encourage her not to take it personally. You know, I don't know we didn't talk about all the nuances of how she handled it and how she communicated. But I think the reality is you can do everything right and you can say in the best way that you can what you need to say and not say what you can't say. But I reminded her, look, Here's the positive. These people so love this organization that even though they didn't lose their jobs, right, you do such a good job rallying the troops and make this place people want to work, that they're still crushed. And I said, You didn't do a bad job of, you know, it wasn't these these people didn't trust you, but it made it that much harder, right? That that they felt like You knew something and even though you couldn't tell them, and I know that's hard for you, but it's also human. Yeah. Right. And I said, if what if your boss didn't tell you and now you were with this other company? She said, I would feel betrayed. And I said, Exactly. So I know you're taking it hard right now, but this is a normal feeling and you might just have to work through it, right? I mean, this is why I I think leadership is lonely at the top. I mean, it really is. The reality is you cannot maintain the healthy boundaries that I think are necessary for big decisions and change and have deep interpersonal relationships with the people around you that are not access to that same information. I think it's really, really hard. I haven't seen it done very well. And so I think that's why it it does feel a little bit lonelier at the top because you do have to kind of contain to some degree. But I I always still try to default to a sense of transparency. So in that scenario, you know, saying, I know change is coming and you're probably n not gonna be happy about it. I and I don't have all the details even. So, but er you know, th of the scenarios I've heard, I think it's gonna be challenging across the board and I wanna work w through it with you or whatever. You know, but giving people a heads up to know as soon as you can, I think is helpful. So people at least aren't blindsided by it. Yeah, I think you know, who knows how much you know, with the right thing and you can have a group of people and that can be the perfect one of the things that we said could be the perfect right thing for them and it helps and not for somebody else. And some of that has to do with where they're at. Yeah. yeah, control what you can control. Yeah. And I think the the absolute thing that some people, especially new leaders, slip into is they voice their displeasure, right? Like wasn't wasn't my decision. And just so you know, I didn't agree. Right. Or I I get where you're coming from because I think it sucks too. And sometimes people think, well, I have to be authentic and I have to be transparent. And so I have to tell the absolute truth. Right. About but I was, you know, you don't have to tell your employees everything you know to be authentic. Mm-hmm. You don't have to tell them everything you think. Mm-hmm. And you don't have to pretend to love every decision at the same time. And there's a way to do that too. Yeah. they need to know that And that's a whole nother question, right? Is what what happens. There's one thing about change, there's another thing about you really are struggling and disagree with the change. And I know you've had some experiences like that. Yeah. Right. I have, you know, and in those moments, what I've gone to is explaining why I'm confident moving forward. I'll say I trust our leadership. And I have no choice but to trust our leadership if I'm gonna stay here. And so while I don't always understand the decisions that are made. I trust that they're made with the interests of what's best for the organization in mind. And I also trust our values that we're gonna make sure people are taken care of. Right. And that can even be true, you know, that maybe in a layoff context, that can also be true in a big systems change context, right? I've been with an organization that made what I thought was a really stupid decision around a technology implementation. And they were totally suckered by somebody that was good at talking, you know, and it drove me crazy. But what I had I knew it was going to do more damage and not serve anyone for me to go and trash talk this. So I had to go out and say, like, look, probably not, you know I don't completely understand the calculus, but what I can tell you is you know, these things were likely a factor. Budget was likely a factor. Timeline was likely a factor. Trust in the implementer was likely a factor. And so while I don't know this person, I'm gonna trust the leadership, knows what they're doing, and we're gonna do our best. Yeah, we need to show up and do our best to make sure that this goes through successfully. And let's hope everything works out really well because we will be so much better on the other side if it does. You know, trying to stay like happy warrior is always the mentality that I come into things with, you know? Like let's tackle it. Yeah, that I think that's great because I do think it's particularly hard to communicate and inform when you are struggling with the decision yourself. Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, and this is where I think ultimately you cannot let yourself become toxic to the work environment. So when I see a leader really struggling, I have a a Colleague, a former colleague that reached out to me recently that is dealing with this. And, you know, she's like, I don't agree with what my CEO is doing. I think this is wrong. I think our board is, you know, what would you do? And I'm like, look, at the end of the day, you're gonna have to make a decision as to whether or not this is the right organization for you. Like at the end of the day, you cannot control the decisions that they're making. And there may be information that you're not privy to that this is why it's not making sense, or they might just be making short-term decisions that are bad for the long term. And if you can't be okay with that, You gotta decide if this is where you wanna be or not, you know? Yeah, it's a if it's a very if it really goes against your values. But in that case, you know, I would even say, Well, what's that person's senior leader? How are they communicating with them and helping them understand the change, right? Why why is that person struggling so much? Well, they are a senior leader, so I think that's part of it, you know? Yeah. But it feeling out of control because decisions are being made at the board level with low context, you know. which happens, right? And so you've just gotta like accept what's outside your control and figure out how do I, you know, honestly and authentically move forward in a way that preserves the integrity of myself and the organization. And I think where you can to letting people know that you did weigh in, right? Like I was kind of thinking through, you know, how do you have that conversation when you don't agree? Like You know, I know some of you have concerns about the direction, and there were certainly different perspectives considered before this decision was made. And but it's been made. So, you know, let's talk about how we figure it, work it out, move it forward as effectively as possible. I want to hear what's concerning to you, and you know, especially anything we need to anticipate and how we incorporate these changes. But saying, look, there were assuring people that if they're if There were opportunities to voice concerns that you were someone who said, you know, gave your perspective. that can make you feel better too. Yeah. To say, I'm letting you know, I'm I'm on board with this, but I'm letting people know, look, lots of different perspectives were considered. And, you know, I made sure that our perspectives and considerations were put on the table, as did the other leaders. And at the end of the day, this was the the decision that was made. For thinking that this is the best path for the organization. So let's talk about what this looks like moving forward. So I think there are lots of different ways to be authentic, but also to not undermine your leadership. And truthfully, it doesn't make people feel good if they feel like you're out of control or you don't agree. It is a little bit our jobs to buffer some of the pain that's to help people do their jobs to help people honestly protect their jobs because the worst thing that can happen is people the first people to go are people who don't get on board with the change. So this kind of goes back to our one of our early episodes about managing your career in the time of AI, which is really about managing your career during change. And I think it goes back to that because in every change there's something to learn. That's right. And even if it's just how do I handle a change that is hard or I don't agree with, I mean, that's still learning for us. And helping people again focus them, reminding them what is of what is still true and helping them learn through the change and build muscle through the change. Because the truth is they will probably get to do some things they haven't done before. That's right. I mean, that's one of the ways that I've always tried to reassure my team in times of high change, you know. Think back to COVID when we were rolling out remote work across the organization. At the same time, we had to implement all of this new reporting that was being required in terms of cases. We had to build this whole dashboard. and so it was the workload was really increasing on top of the way that we work was dramatically changing, on top of everybody was wigging out, right? And What I said, and I and I meant it. Like I it was I could so authentically say this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to level up. Think about how much we are going to learn. The opportunity outpaces the risk here in terms of all of the new things that we get to do that we would never be able to do in normal circumstances. So let's take this opportunity to rollout power BI dashboards across the organization. Like this is an opportunity. And I know that's so cheesy, but that's how I felt. Well but but then you get to add that to your resume. That's right. That's right. You know, and you take a to think about what we put in the we put in place these report this reporting. You know, another thing to think about when you think about how do you manage change with your team and how do you keep t the team focused even when things are hard. And another reason to do it is because I will tell you what happens during change and change that's not handled well. Or change where there's not good communication or where people feel lost or confused or don't have the information. And that is you don't lose your mediocre people and your worst people. You lose your best people. if they don't feel like things are okay, if they don't feel like if they feel like this is gonna be super disruptive or the organization is not handling it well, or that people aren't being listened to, I promise you. The people that can go will go. And they'll be like, this feels this is feeling like a sinking ship to me. Yeah, this is messy. So guess what? I'm out. But guess who doesn't go anywhere? Your mediocre and your low your low performers, they hang on to the very end. But your high performers, right? Your people who are managed their careers, they're like, I'm what? I got an offer over here. Y'all are not feeling solid to me. And so I think that's a big reason why from the highest levels. being thoughtful about communication and change, and then making sure that everyone is equipped to understand the why, to understand, you know, how to share that information, how to anticipate questions. And a question from one team and their concerns is going to be different than this question from another team or the concerns of another team. So the as you move t you know through the leadership levels, the people closest to it. need to anticipate that. Yeah. We should easily be able to, and if you can't do it, there are other peop there are people get that can help you. You know, what are people going to be worried about? What do people believe they have to gain or lose? And how am I going to communicate this in a way that shows the why, helps them understand the path, helps them understand their role and where we're going. Yeah. And helps And keeps people from spinning out. Yeah. It's it's purpose and progress. It's how do you connect people to the purpose, why we're doing what we're doing, how this helps us advance our organizational goals, how this is connected to our values as an organization. And then the progress is this is where we're going and this is what success looks like. And here's the wins we've already made. And here's the positive change that's already happened. I mean, we're talking about change like it's a death knell. And it's like the reality is Change is what drives growth and opportunity and innovation and all of these other great things, right? And so saying, like, look, this is what change has already given us. And this is what we're we expect to see on the other side of this, you know. And so keeping again, I the happy warrior mentality is what I always go into is how do you keep people marching forward in a way that keeps them excited about the future rather than fearful about the future, even if that future is unknown? Yeah, I love what you said about wins. It's so easy. Especially when we're driving change and there's so much going on. And usually you're on a path, right, where you you're trying to hit milestones and you're trying to incorporate things and and things have to happen. And we often you go into meetings and all anybody talks about is what's still left to do and what hasn't been done and what's not on track. And so I think the thing that you said about we have to share like, hey, here's where we started, here's where we're at. We're already making headway. Yeah. That is huge. and in that same vein. One of the things that I see leaders get wrong in that is they say, look at this win. And they expect everybody to get why it's a win. And you've got to say, you know, look, we successfully implemented this software in only six months and they projected twelve. What that's gonna mean for us is we are able to be up and running and in the field faster. This means that our IT team can now get back to prioritizing your ticket, whatever the whatever that is the ripple effects of that win are. Why is it a win? You can't expect that people just get it just because you're saying it's a win, right? You have to connect it back to them. Yeah. I think we don't connect the dots enough during change. And even the big, you know, we we don't, I really still feel like even though we say like communicate the why, we still don't do a very good job of that. Yeah. Most of the time change happens because in an attempt to compete and to keep Being able to do what you're doing. Nobody loves change. So change often happens just because, like, if we don't do change, we're gonna get left behind. there was a s software, some kind of implementation, or you know, AI is rolling out. It's like there's no world where we don't do this. So if we think that we can just not do some of these things and still be competitive in five years, we're fooling ourselves. So we've gotta do this. And let's be let's and that And I think you can rally people around a little bit of competition too. It's like we're doing this so that we, you know, can maintain our position in the market. Again, do I love that? Do people, you know, really care? they they do. I do think people want to be part of some people want to win successfully. People want to be with a winner. Yeah. And I think that can be harder when it's just they feel like it's just about, you know, increasing profits so the executives can get a a bonus. Thousand percent But how do you make it for them to how I do think there's an opportunity to incentivize people and say, like, if we do these things, here's what a position's us to do and And connecting it back to purpose, right? You know, ultimately what we're trying to do is, you know, I'm working with an organization right now that their goal is to ensure that every child has access to a quality education. And it's like every change is marching towards that goal or Eliminate the burden of cancer care. Now, those are both nonprofit examples, but even in for profits, you know, it's like we want to make, I was working with one organization, their mission was we want to make going to the DMV fun and cool, right? And so you know, I mean, so I I think you've got to reconnect people to what's that vision and what's kind of the direction that you're driving. Why are you doing the work that you're doing? Yeah. I think a hundred percent on all that. Okay. So I'm gonna run through kind of what we've said is necessary to effectively kind of communicate and change the big picture. And you tell me what we've missed. So the first thing you talked about is change changes what people need. So change changes what people need, right? So people need more information more frequently. You need more visibility. They need different information. You need to communicate more but with clarity and not noise. So you need to be communicating through multiple channels, thinking about all the different audiences, thinking about frequency of communication being way more than you think it is. You know, you probably are undercommunicating rather than overcommunicating. you need to be visible even when it's easier to retreat. So you've got to be up and out. You got to be really visible. You gotta be accessible, right? And so part of what we talked about there is if you're driving big systemic change, don't upset the Apple cart on the cultural change. Or what are those cultural touchstones that are gonna keep people connected to a groundedness and a sense of identity in the organization. You said you need to listen, involve, and respond when getting and receiving feedback about change and bringing people along in that process. And then you need to keep people connected to purpose and the progress that you're making, the wins. Is there anything anything I missed that you would add to that? No, I think we covered a lot of it and I don't want to go backwards. Yeah. And start restart a conversation. Yeah, is there anything that you think about when you think about communicating and change that you think we didn't cover or that has been an experience that you're like, we didn't really talk about this? No, I think we covered a lot of it. What I would say is, you know, the two things I always say are transparency and visibility. Be as transp I think my personal values but it i I think it bears out in people's success is be more transparent. you've you've got to Find a way to walk that line of without scaring people. Without scaring people. Because I have seen people that take transparency and they say things I'm like, you just scared everybody. Absolutely. I totally agree. I was thinking about a CEO that thought they were being transparent and, you know, just like we need to worry about making payroll next month. Like this happened and we're strapped for cash. And I'm like, So how would you advised him to have handled that differently? While still making people aware of the context of my decision. I think there's there's listen, you know, we had this big event happen. It's taking a lot of our resources. It's gonna be really important that we're thoughtful about how we're spending money. we need to make sure that we're being fiscally responsible on these things. This is going to hit our budget a lot in the next six months, but we wanna get through this time. Come to the other end. Cause the truth was, like, they weren't going under. I think in an attempt to create a sense of urgency about the situation and be transparent. But I think what happened is that one of two things. One, people really were worried, or people who kind of knew more were like, it's not that bad. Yeah. But the worst thing is the people who again, if they do take that at face value. And they are talented, then they're gonna be like, you know what, this is whack. I'm gonna just go. Yeah. I'm gonna go work for this other. That's right. So you know, and I think that's because good talent has a higher th risk threshold, you know? I'm also much more marketable, right? They've got that experience, they can go, they're probably already getting pinged. They understand their value and their worth. Yeah. And it's just And they are willing to do that because they trust their experience. That's right. And they trust what they've done and they trust what they can do. So I know we're kind of rolling that back, but I do think it's transparency is important. It's the right level. And then you know what we say matters, how we say it matters. You know, there's a great line in Invictus, which we show sometimes here where someone asked the captain of the national rugby team. They're going to be any good this year, what their chances are in the World Cup. And so he says, you know, what are our chances in the World Cup? And, you know, the team is just okay. but the captain of this rugby team says, we will do our best, that I can guarantee. The guy goes back to his buddies and they say, Hey, you know, what's he like? And what are our chances in the World Cup? The guy says he's not as big as he looks on TV and we don't have a bloody chance in the World Cup, right? And so that's it really brings home the idea that you can say something that feels perfect perfectly reasonable and perfectly innocuous. And yet, because he's the captain of the national rugby team, people are reading into that messaging, that's perfectly reasonable messaging and putting their own spin on it. And so to me, it's a perfect example about how thoughtful we have to be. where those lines are, how we're communicating as leaders. There are lots of eyes on us. People aren't always gonna get what we want them to get. And that's why we have to communicate in lots of different ways, understand our audience, understand what's at risk for them and And try to do it as best we can. And we won't do it perfect all the time. That's right. That's exactly right. Well, I think that's a great place to end it. if you found this helpful, you can check out our show notes. Devon will have her communicating and change checklist available for you to download. and we would love it if you did enjoy this. Please like, follow, share, comment, subscribe, all the things. and thank you so much for joining us and hope to hear from you next time. Thanks, Adrian. Thank you all for tuning in. If this conversation was useful to you, the best thing you can do is share it with someone who might use it. Leave us a review, and please subscribe wherever you're listening. You can learn more about our work at Success Labs and connect with us at SuccessLabs.com. We're on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Just search for Success Labs. 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