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SMNTY Classics: SMNTY In Conversation with Margaret Killjoy · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I holcome to Stepan Never Told You production of iHeartRadio,
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: and welcome to another classic. Today we are bringing back
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: a conversation we had with friend of the show, Margaret Kiljoy,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: who came on our show and we talked about all
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: kinds of things around intersectional feminism. And both Samantha and
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I have been on margaret show. So if you haven't
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: heard us over there, go check that out. If you
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: haven't listened to Margaret's show, go check it out. We're
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: hoping to get Margaret on the show soon to talk
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: about one of her books.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: He's got a couple of books. Yeah, she's busy.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, all of our friends are so cool and they're
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: so busy. Yes, but in the meantime, please enjoy this
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: classic episode.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I don't come to Steffan Never Told Your protection of iHeartRadio.
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: And today we are so excited because we get to
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: have true friends of the show. Like I've already claimed
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: her as one of my best friends. I said this
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: a while ago.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Margaret kill Joy to the show.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Yay, thanks for having me.
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: I've tried to do like songs and such and people
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: don't like it, but I still do it.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: It's okay, all.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: Right, don't like it.
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: So then I got that you're actually a musician, so
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: I feel like this is better coming from you.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: But yes, we do have.
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: The wonderful Margaret Kiljoy on our show.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself for our listeners?
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Sure?
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: My name is Margaret Kiljoy. I use she or they
• 1:58
  Speaker 5: pronounce and I am I'm a podcaster and an author,
• 2:02
  Speaker 5: and I guess the aforementioned musician. I have another iHeartRadio
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, where you
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: might have heard Samantha talking in back in the Utopian
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: past before the fall of rov Wade about what might
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: happen after the fall of Rovy Wade.
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: Yes, it was one of those that we had to
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: come back very quickly to be like, all right, we
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: have to redo somethings.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And we knew it going into it.
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: We were like, this might sound utopian and outdated by
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: the time you hear it, and it was.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: But I loved what you had brought because it was
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: such a hopeful turn and even though it was really sad,
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: come back to revisit it.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, I.
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: Was like at least there's a spotlight, like a nice
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: light at the end of that conversation.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that's true.
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: There is a lot of hope to accidentally dive into that.
• 2:55
  Speaker 5: There's a lot of hope for what people can do
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: even when things aren't strictly legal. There's and we have
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: a lot We've come a long way in terms of
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: like what we can do in a post Roe v.
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: Wade world than what we had access to in a
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: pre ro v Wade world.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: So right, And for the listeners who may not know
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: because I've mentioned it before, but yes, I got to
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: be a guest with Margaret when we talked about the
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: Jaine Collective and the many people behind I guess, the
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: rebelliousness of going against the anti abortion people and what
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: it looked like before abortion was legal at that time,
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: which we were back to square one. But it was
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: some amazing stories and I learned a lot. So if
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: you haven't checked that out, you really should go and
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: check it out. But we're not necessarily here talking about that, No,
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: we're talking about the media. Yeah, you have so many
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: titles under your belt, Margaret, and I looked you up
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: on the interwebs, which you're everywhere you're I'm like, oh
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: my god, you're so famous with that, but it has
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: so many titles between the writer, musician, anarchist, activist, podcaster.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: You are out.
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: There doing some things and right now you're actually not
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: near your home.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: Correct, that's true.
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: I'm on book tour while I'm on pre book tour,
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: and I decided to start my book tour on the
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: West Coast. I live on the East Coast, so I
• 4:14
  Speaker 5: drove out to the West Coast and in a couple
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: of weeks. I don't know when this will drop, but
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: I will be on book tour starting September twentieth talking
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: about my new short story collection book.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Oh can you tell us about that?
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I have a book out coming out called we
• 4:28
  Speaker 5: Won't Be Here Tomorrow and Other Stories that comes out
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: from Akpress, and it's a collection of well, I've been
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: writing short fiction for a long time, and I've been
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: writing it at I guess I would say a professional
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: level for a little while now, and so this is
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: my first collection of the stories that have been published
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: in various magazines and science fiction anthologies and things like that,
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: and also some stories that were previous only only available
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: to I used to have a personal Patreon, and I
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: had stories that were only available to my patrons, but.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: Now they will be available to everyone.
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: And I write a lot of queer punk, radical protagonists
• 5:03
  Speaker 5: who run around and feed men too mermaids and squat
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: buildings and try to stop bad things and all of
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: that live in the apocalypse.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: I don't know. And so yeah, so that comes out soon.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: That sounds great.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Future book club pic. I know, So we do book clubs,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: So now we're going to bring your books. And I
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: know you also did horror as well.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: Am I wrong?
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: Did I just pick that us aware because we're a
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: huge fan and it's coming to the season.
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: Oh okay, yeah, No, It's funny because I it's kind
• 5:40
  Speaker 5: of by accident that I started writing horror, because I
• 5:44
  Speaker 5: basically I was like, I wrote these novellas. I have
• 5:47
  Speaker 5: this series of two novellas that Danielle Kine series, and
• 5:51
  Speaker 5: basically I was like, oh, okay, I'll do this thing
• 5:54
  Speaker 5: set in basically now, but there will be demons or magic,
• 5:57
  Speaker 5: you know, And then I'm like, oh, and if there's magic,
• 5:59
  Speaker 5: it's hard because you know, most of the time, I
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: think Arben fantasy often way too much, is like and
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: then the elevators are just run by magic instead of
• 6:09
  Speaker 5: you know, electricity or whatever, and that's not very interesting.
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: I think magic has a lot to do with power,
• 6:14
  Speaker 5: and I think that when you introduce incredibly skewed power
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: dynamics into the real world, you end up with things
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: that are horrific. And so I didn't set out to
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: write the first book is called The Lamble Slaughter of
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: the Lion, which I suppose does sound like a title
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: of a horror thing. Yeah, but I actually just set
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: it out to be like kind of adventure. And then
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: I was like and the publisher was like, this is
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: this is horror, and I was like, oh, okay, I
• 6:37
  Speaker 5: guess that makes sense.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: I'm very squeamish.
• 6:40
  Speaker 5: So and you know, I used to live alone in
• 6:44
  Speaker 5: a van, and then before that, and then after that,
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: I lived alone in a cabin.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: In the woods and all of this stuff.
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: So I avoided horror for a very long time because
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: it didn't fit my lifestyle. So but I can read
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: it and I can write it, although I have also
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: in myself nightmares with my own before.
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: Oh that's a testament right there. If you can give
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: yourself nightmares when you're writing in a good way.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Then you know you're doing it right. Yeah.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, well that's awesome. Congratulations, because writing a book is
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: no small thing.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. Yeah, thank you.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you've done it multiple times.
• 7:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and sometimes they get slightly longer than the other ones. Actually,
• 7:27
  Speaker 5: the longest books I've ever written. I can't I'm legally
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: not allowed to say that I wrote because they're romance novels.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: I ghost wrote. Oh for a while, I made.
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: My living ghostwriting trashy heterosexual romance novels. And it was like,
• 7:42
  Speaker 5: right after I came out, they were like, can you
• 7:43
  Speaker 5: write this male protagonist stuff?
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: That is fascinating?
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: At first I was like, it's kind of annoyed. I
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: just came out.
• 7:50
  Speaker 5: But then I was like, well, it kind of makes
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: sense because male protagonist romance novels are still written for
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: a woman audience, right, you know, And so I'm like, Okay,
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: I think I can straddle this divide better than some
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: other people.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, you it's very obvious.
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: And we've talked about this before, and we're going off subject,
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: but before we go back to the subject. But how
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: oftentimes when you see romance and it has specific language,
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: You're like, this is definitely a woman who wrote this
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: or someone who are understands that gender level of this
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: is a male gaze. This is a female gaze. Especially
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: when it comes to a heteronormative conversations. There's very big differences,
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: and so it seems very obvious like someone understands, someone
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: really understands what we're talking about here, and it's not
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: your cismel dude doing this.
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah, which is why I think that like the Nicholas
• 8:41
  Speaker 5: Sparks is of the world and stuff are so successful.
• 8:43
  Speaker 5: Is because if you if you kind of figure out
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: how to do that while still being like a man
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: or presenting as a man or I don't know anything
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: my Nicholas Sparks as a person, you know, I don't
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: know whether he's ghost written or not.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I have my suspicions but controversy.
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: But but you know, if you can, if you can
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: tap into that, it's a it's a powerful market. I mean,
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: that's why I got Hi right. I didn't go straight
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: Nicholas Sparks.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: But this is about what I'm saying.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: You're heard to hear, Firshell just kidding U.
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: But yeah, coming back to what we're talking about and Honestly,
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: this is kind of all links because this is kind
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: of how we look at different entertainment that seems just
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: so blase. And we've talked about romance and how it does,
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: how it is affected by gender stereotypes or those who
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: have a bias, what is placed by misogyny, Like our
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: understanding of romance is laid down by a foundation of
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: misogynistic ideals based by the patriarchy.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Like this is about the power.
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: And I know again people are gonna be like, you're reaching,
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: but we talked about how this really does affect uh,
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: the society at large, and this is kind of your forte.
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: You've come under this conversation. You have identified as a
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: feminist for a long time now. I believe before you
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: came out you were already Yeah, feminism is real, is effective.
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: Can you kind of talk about your journey with feminism?
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: Okay? But can I tangent to talk about romance a
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: little bit more?
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: Yes? And I'll type that together.
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, yeah, when you're talking about the tropes and
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: the stereotypes that bleed into it. Since I wrote for
• 10:28
  Speaker 5: someone else, they told me these rules, and so I
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: can And I.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Don't know whether they're like secret or not.
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: I mean I can I know they're not in my nda,
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: I know I can say them. But one the protagonist
• 10:41
  Speaker 5: has to be over six feet tall. I was told
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: to write an average size professional football player, so he
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: was five foot ten and they were like, uh no,
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: he has to be at least six feet tall. He
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: has to be dominant in every sexual situation. And he
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: also which was awkward and one of the ones I
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: because he was injured, which actually was kind of fun
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: to write.
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: Did he get calls himself more injury because he had
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: to be dominant no matter, because.
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: Well I don't know the age of your all his
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: usual audience, but he managed to become dominant verbally yeah, sosally.
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: But and there were just like so many of these
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: weird rules and like, and some of them actually really
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: annoyed me, right because you know, I wrote, you know,
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: in one of these books, he's he's dating a mom, right,
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: and I wrote that he was like into her stretch marks,
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: and they were like, no, no, no, no, she doesn't have
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: stretch marks, And I'm.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: Like, ohare audience right?
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: I thought the point of this was to make these
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: like middle aged moms feel really good right, you know,
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: and so so that got edited out, and there's all
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: of these things like that, and then it gets into
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: like real specific stuff around like the way that you
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: describe like the bad woman as the following sexual acts
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: and the good woman is the following.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: It's real.
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: It's in some ways I feel dirtier about having written
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: that than like anything else I've done.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: But I needed the money.
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: And I like tried my hardest to make them passibly
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: feminist and passibly you know, like like write. And there
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: were like, weren't gay characters in the outlines they give me,
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: And I'd be like, whatever, he can have a gay
• 12:21
  Speaker 5: best friend.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: I don't care, you know.
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: And then I'm like, oh my god, I'm at the
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: point where I'm like, oh a gay best friend.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: That's edgy of me.
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: And I'm like, I think I understand nineties writers better now,
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: you know. This is the best that they were like
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: allowed to do. Right, Okay, your question was about my
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: journey into Yes, yeah, I'm sorry. I was really excited
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: because I don't thin get to talk about romance novel
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: as much.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: We can do a whole section all that, because, like
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: I said, we've did I think we did a two
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: parter because we were.
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: So I want to go back and listen to that,
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: because I might have also just told you all things
• 13:05
  Speaker 5: you already know.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: Well, you went to a whole different we went down
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: a whole different route.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay.
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: Sometimes I think about trying to write some really intentionally now,
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: but life is very short. So you know, I grew
• 13:19
  Speaker 5: up being told I was a boy, right, And I
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: have these like early memories of I wish I was
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: a girl, But all of the early presentations I saw.
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: I grew up in the eighties and nineties, and all
• 13:30
  Speaker 5: of the early presentations of trans women I saw were
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: very monstrous, right.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: They were the butt of jokes.
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: Or they were to be pitied, or they were like
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: they had destroyed themselves or you know, and I just
• 13:42
  Speaker 5: I have these very early memories of being like I
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: wish I was a girl, but I cannot become a girl.
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: I cannot become a trans woman. That is not is
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: better to be a boy than to be one of
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: these pitable creatures. And you know, and I held on
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: too that for a very long time. And it was
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: very confusing, right because I kept dating gay girls and
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: we would all be confused, you know, we'd be like,
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: why am I attracted to you and be like, I
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: don't know. I honestly couldn't tell you, and you know,
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: and it's kind of this like thing I've talked to.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Other trans women and other trans folks.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: About this, where like kind of like on some subconscious level,
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: people know this when they even don't know this, you know,
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: and it's not just about like who I would date
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: or whatever, although it also be you go the other
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: way and did very confused straight girls who were like,
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: what this.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Doesn't work right?
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: But I got and I also got really into LGBT
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: stuff as my first politics.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: I joined the Gay Straight Alliance of Maryland when.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: I grew up.
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: And actually, one thing I think that people don't realize
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: is that the gay straight Alliances of the nineties, the
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: reason they were gay straight alliances was plausible deniability, because
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: if you don't want to come out, you can still,
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: you know, join organizations. And the way that we started
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: Gay Straight Alliance in my school was really funny. I
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: had these two there were these two teachers who in
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: retrospect were very obviously lesbians, not dating each other, but
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: you know, one of them had a hyphenated last name,
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: and one of them was the super butch gym teacher,
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: and they just kind of cornered me in the hallway
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: one day before school started and they were like, did
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: you know that teachers aren't allowed to start student groups?
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: And I was like huh. And they were like, here's.
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: A clipboard with a forum that's already filled out to
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: start against straight alliance. Do you want to start a
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: gainst straight Alliance? And I was like I do. I
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: do want to start a gay straight alliance because they
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: knew that I was involved in regional Gay Straight Alliance
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: politics and no one was out in our gay straight Alliance,
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: and in retrospect, we were all almost all queer, and
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: the random straight guys very actively politically engaged in leftist politics. Now,
• 15:53
  Speaker 5: so so yeah, I kind of, you know, I was like, okay, well,
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: I'm really interested in feminism. My oldest sister is a
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: very active feminist who who currently does clinic escorting, and
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: you know, it's kind of my hero around a lot
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: of that stuff still, and so this is always something
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: I was interested in, and I always as this very
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: ally position, even though on some level I was like, well,
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: what is what's going on here? Like why why do
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: all I care about is like women's issues and gay issues,
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: you know, And then slowly the category of what counts
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: as trends started to expand in that people who don't
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: necessarily medically transition, or if they do, like quote medically transition,
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: it's you know, not to necessarily the same degree. It's
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: like it's no longer like you become a woman when
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: you like undergo surgery. Right, you know, I rarely see
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: people talk about being like, oh, I'm pre op MDF
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: or whatever. That is terminology that I'm not trying to
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: shame anyone who uses any terminology. I don't care, but
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: it is like terminology that no longer seems to be
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: the dominant discourse around it. And you know, and the
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: more I came to understand this work that feminism, feminism
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: has done for a very long time to draw the
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: distinction between sex and gender and use that to understand
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: both sex and gender based oppression, that lens allowed people
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: to kind of realize that, I mean, basically, if I
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: am a trans woman, I'm a trans woman already rather
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: than like waiting to become.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: A trans woman.
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: And I don't personally experience much in the way of
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: body dysphoria, dysmorphia, and so I don't have a strong
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: desire to quote unquote like medically transition or surgically transition
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: or whatever language you know people want to use.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: But I have a very strong desire to socially transition.
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: And so when that became available to me, when that
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: was included under the umbrella of trans it's like the
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: umbrella of trans expanded to include me. For a while,
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: I identified as like a transvestite, you know, which is
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: not a word that people tend to use right now.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: But I was like, oh, I'm just a cross dresser.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: It's like all of this when I'm like, oh, I
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: was a CIS boy. I was like a cist boy
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: where I took the name Margaret and published books under
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: the name Margaret and like war women's clothing almost exclusively.
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: But but yeah, it kind of expanded to include me.
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: And I think that there's a lot of people who
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: that happened to. And then the other really big important
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: thing is that it stopped being perceived as monstrous by
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: a large trunk of society. Now things have swung back
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: the other way, and you know, I feel a little
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: bit like I'm waiting in my castle for the pitchforks
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: and torches to show up outside these days, especially living
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: rural like I do.
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: But you know, I don't know.
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: That's how I you know, And and it leaves me
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: in this funny situation where I like, do I look
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: back and perceive my childhood as a girlhood, you know,
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: or do I per see it, perceive it as a boyhood,
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: or do I just perceive it as a childhood. And
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: the ways I feel about that changed different times. It
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: helps that, you know. Sometimes, I like, by the end
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: of high school, like my closest group of friends was
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: just like the girls, and it was like the girls
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: and then me, I'm here, you know, and I wasn't
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: dating any of them, and we'd sit around and paint
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: her nails and like skip gym class to sit in
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: the corner and talk about goth bands or whatever, you know.
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: And I'm still friends with some of those people. One
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: of my best friends is still from that time. It
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: was one of the people who really encouraged me to
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: come out. I remember I was like thirty and I
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: was like, oh, it was too late. And someone I'd
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: known since I was like thirteen, was like, why is
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: it too late, and I'm like, I don't know because
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: no one will believe me. And she's like does that matter,
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: and I'm like, I guess it doesn't, you know. And
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: now I'm kind of rambling. But some people will believe
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: me and some people won't. And you know, it's like
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: I don't pass right, but I don't try to. It's
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: possible that if I transition when I was younger, I
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: would have put more work into that, but as it is,
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: and then and then that's the the beautiful, the horrible thing,
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: right as you realize this, like no one.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: Passes for under sys feminine standards.
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: You know, it's like this is feminine beauty standards hurt everybody,
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: and so so now it's just like, well, you know,
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: I walk through the world and people perceive me largely
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: as a man in a dress. And that's fine. I mean,
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: it's it's fine when it's fine, it's not fine when
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: it's not fine. But fortunately I'm also a scary punk,
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: so for the most part, people don't mess with me.
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: A lot of people say things behind my back, but
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: not to my face because I also often walk around
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: with the very large knife.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: That'll do it, So that'll do it.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I like it.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I think that's the lesson to be told very knife.
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean where it's legal, it is a
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: useful visual indicator.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Hey, it's not worth it. It's just not worth it.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Let's not start. Yeah. I love that.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: I love that conversation about being on a spectrum. I
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: think we talk about that a lot on the show.
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: When it comes to gender.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: It's not binary. It is.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: It is a spectrum, and it is fluid, and it
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: should be. It doesn't make sense that it's not. And
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: the idea that it has to be in order to
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: fit a standard, it's absurd. It is when you really
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: kind of come down on the same thing with love
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: and relationships and understanding that this is a fluid and
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: why wouldn't it be if it's emotion, if it's not gender,
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: but necessarily but like about feelings and who you love
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: and who, why wouldn't it be the person that you
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: connect to. That makes the most sense because at the
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: very least it's honest, and then the very most is
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: happiness and that's something that we should strive for in
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: individual individual lives and just for happiness. Again, Yeah, it
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: has nothing to do with everybody else. It has everything
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: to do with who you are and coming out to
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: whether it's with your gender whatever it is, or coming
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: out and being independent in their political stance. Like that's
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: even a big conversation understanding that it's for you and
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: that at any point in time, things change, circumstances change,
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: events change, and whatever that might be, it doesn't affect
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: anyone else, so why should you be bothered by it?
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: That's such a bigger conversation. And again, yeah, this goes
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: back to what we were talking about with romance novels.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: This is like this layout that's existed for years and
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: years and years and it's not really helpful, and though
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: people have accepted it, there's no reason to remain in
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: that habit. I love because when you talk about what
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: you are going through and you're coming out and what
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: that looks like for you coming out as trans, but
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: not only that, realizing the inner person of who you
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: are has always been there. So whether it's your political stance,
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: whether it's understanding feminism, whether it's calling your off an anarchist,
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: which I want to come back to because I still
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: need an understanding of that for myself. Who understands the
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: binary liberal and conservative like That's what I know because
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: my parents throw it in my face often. Yeah, but
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: all this is a platform for you. Like the reasons
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: that you are writing books, the reason that you were
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: in a band, the reason that you are in a
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: podcast kind of has everything to do with these foundations. Yes,
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: that was a question that I did in reference as
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: a question can you kind of expound upon that?
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: When I was younger and I was like, I want
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: to do art, and I was like what kind of art?
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: And I was like, I don't know. And I was like,
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: are you any good at any of it?
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: No?
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, what am I going to do?
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: And I I tried. I was like, I'm going to.
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: Learn how to paint, and I'm I'm okay painting, but
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: no one's gonna that's not my career path.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: And you know, and writing more than.
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: Anything else, writing fiction was something that was more interested
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: and I asad when I was younger to write poetry,
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: and I aspire to become good enough to go back
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: to writing poetry, but I don't write much of it
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: right now. And so I started kind of, yeah, I
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: like started doing all of these things and slowly expanding
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: the list of things that I do the number of
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: plates I have spent in unfortunately, and usually what I
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: do is if I have something I want to say,
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: I think about what the best medium to say that is,
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: and then go out and try and say it in
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: that way. You know, there's certain things, certain ideas that
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: come across in different ways better. And for example, I
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: think that music is a really good way to put
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: someone in an emotional space or put yourself in an
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: emotional space. It's not a particularly good way to be pedantic.
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: It's not a very good way to teach someone something.
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: It's not a very good way to express complex political
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: ideas or interpersonal ideas.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: However, it's not terrible at those things.
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: I think that Riot Girl has shown us, and arcopunk
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: and hip hop and a lot of different very direct
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: forms of communication have come through from music, right, But
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: overall I tend to use it when I have something
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: sort of more emotional to say, and then if I
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: have something cultural to say, I often write it in
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: fiction about like how can people interact with each other? Right,
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: Because a lot of my political ideas they're a little
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: bit less about, like and here's how the legislative branch
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: or in my case, it would be like, here's how
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: the anarchist federation, you know, disseminates goods across the different
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: collectives that control the work around cooperatives of you know,
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: these areas or whatever, right, which would be like the
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: political or economic structure of anarchism as is sort of
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: understood in the twentieth century at least context. But I'm
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: much more interested in for me to use anarchism as
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: the example, because that's what I'm more familiar with. Ways
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: of relating to each other, ways of creating cultures of
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: consent and consensus is what's interesting to me. So I
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: like writing characters interacting with each other more than I
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: like writing nonfiction, because if I was writing nonfiction, it
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: would just be like, we should be consensual in our
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: relationships with each other, you know, And it's much easier
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: to just like, uh, draw that right, and you can
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: tell and then you can get into the fun stuff,
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: like like what does a romance novel look like in
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: a you know, culture of consent, where like, even if
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: it's a monogamous relationship, it's monogamous in the context of
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: polyamory as available to these characters, but they choose monogamy
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: what does that look like? What does it look like
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: to consent to that? You know, And in this case,
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: I'm actually literally quoting Ursula like Gwin is my probably
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: my main role model of an author, and actually wrote
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: specifically about that in this book called The Dispossessed about like,
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: you know, these characters who could absolutely it's even the
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: norm to be polyamorous, they choose to be committed to
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: each other and it creates this type of romance that
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: you're not going to run across. Even though it's a
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: monogamous relationship, it doesn't it doesn't look like what the
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: monogamous relationships we get presented with are. So that's why
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: I like writing fiction. And then with podcasts, you know,
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: I mean it was different. I have one podcast called
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: Live Like the World's Dyeing, which is a preparedness podcast,
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: And my stated goal here is to take preparedness culture
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: away from the right wing because this individualistic everyone hide
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: in their bunker and stockpile AMMO and food things is nonsensical.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: It'll get everyone killed, it won't.
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: Stop the crisis of the world, and it won't even
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: help those individuals live very long because unless all of
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: them are surgeons and have another one around. They're not
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: going to be able to do anything when they're pendex bursts.
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: And what I want to be able to communicate to
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: people is that society is what creates safety, and society
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: is what allows us to live full and happy and
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: free lives. Right because freedom, as I understand it, is
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: not something that exists in a vacuum. Freedom is a
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: relationship between people. Freedom is something that we give one another.
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: And so to be totally alone, I'm not free because
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: I can't do everything I want to do. All I
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: can do is try not to die if I'm just
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: totally alone. The only way in which freedom becomes a
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: liberty is if you're rich as hell, because then you
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: can hire everyone to do everything for you, so you're
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: still not actually alone doing things. You're just making all
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: the decisions yourself. Anyway, Okay, So if I want to
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: get across that idea, apparently what I do is come
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: out of your podcast and say it. But in general,
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: what I do is, you know, I run this podcast
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: where I interview people about compost or I interview people
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: about you know, community gardens or you know, activist modes
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: that are working for them or whatever.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: And then the other one that I do.
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: Is called cool People did cool stuff, And it's how
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: I try to show people that we can have agency
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: and that we can, you know, because we keep getting
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: told by society that we don't have agency, that we
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: can't do what we want. We have to appeal to
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: other people in power to get things done, and that
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: is my work as an anarchist. I believe in responsibility
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: and freedom as the two sort of core concepts, and
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: so my work is to try to help people understand
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: we can have agency. And here are all these people
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: in the past who have taken agency over bad situations,
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: and they don't always win, right, Unfortunately, they often don't win.
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: But winning and losing is a really weird concept when
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: we're mortal, because like, I don't know the difference between
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: dying trying to make things better or dying in a
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: world that didn't make things better. I'm still dying, you know, Like,
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: like we can't have dying be a massive negative in
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: our lives because we're stuck with it. You know that's
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: going to happen, And so I just I want to
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: so if I want to try and get across this
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: concept of agency, that is the other format I use
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: for it, and I don't know. I just love all
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: of the different way all of these different formats work,
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: and I don't do all of them, right, There's so
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: many good ideas that are just not you know, I
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: probably won't write a like.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: I do write nonfiction.
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: Actually, now that I say that, I like, as soon
• 30:05
  Speaker 5: as I start saying that, I'm like, no, but I
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: want to do everything.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, you do a lot of things.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I get really sad.
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: I was watching I was rewatching The Hobbit, which I
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: like more than almost anyone I know. Yeah, and I
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: was just like thinking about the elves being like, man,
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: if I was an elf, i'd be like for twenty years,
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: I'm just gonna be a blacksmith.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: I'm just gonna make swords for ten twenty years. Oh, okay,
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: that's done, all right. Now I'm gonna write poetry for
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: twenty years.
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: Like now I'm going to go and like do childcare
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: for my friends for twenty you know, just specialize in
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: all these different things anyway, That's okay. Yeah, I love it.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Samantha's already mentioned it, and you've alluded to it a lot.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Can you explain what being an anarchist is an what
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: you think that has to do with feminism?
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Sure, so, I understand.
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: Anarchism is two separate things that are related, and one
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: is a sort of ideological movement that came out of
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: European socialism, and it actually pre dates Marxism and a
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: lot of the other very specific isms within socialism. It
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: was basically people who were like, well, the state and
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: capitalism are bad. They are both oppressive forces, and we
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: should do without them, and we should do things as communities.
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: And then the sort of are like sub sects that
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: come up within that ideological position that was originally kind
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: of mid nineteenth century eighteen forties or so. There's like
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: mutualist anarchism, which still uses markets and banks, but they're
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: like people's banks, and there's no ability to maintain capital
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: and wield it against other people, versus like a communalist
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: or a communist anarchism, which are not the same but
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: are like much more what people imagine of like leftism,
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: where we all like kind of get together and share.
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: And it was positioned within the sort of ideological framework
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: of socialism, which is the general overall capitalis shouldn't run everything,
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: and overall like society should run things instead, right, Like
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: the who owns the means of production is the big thing?
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: Like who owns the factories? Is it the people who
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: own the factories? Is it the workers who own the factories,
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: et cetera. And so that is the anarchist sort of
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: tradition that I come from, and anarchists have are kind
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: of the most I would claim, probably the most misunderstood
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: of these different positions because originally we kind of had
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: this the stereotype of where the people who like throw
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: bombs and kill kings. I am not embarrassed the fact
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: that we used to kill kings. Someone says that they're
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: in charge of everyone else, and someone says, no, you're not.
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: That's okay by me, right, But you know that if
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: that is people have this perception of anarchists as only
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: the people who are trying to destroy the existent, rather
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: than create a society based on equality, based on non hierarchy.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: And so the largest example.
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: Of an anarchist society that is the most that we
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: have the most information about, at least as a consciously
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: anarchist society, was during the Spanish Civil War in the
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: nineteen thirties, when anarchists were the majority, I believe, of
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: the labor movement in Spain. And so when this war
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: broke out, when Franco invaded and tried to declare fascism
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: within and had tried to do a coup, basically anarchists
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: were on the front lines and prevented that from happening.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: And then in that.
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: Lack of the republic having state power, the anarchists started
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: running everything and they had a lot of organizations in place.
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: This is the other misconception that people have about anarchism.
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: So anarchism is not anti organization. Anarchism is purely anti
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: authoritarian organization where someone tells you what to do in
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: a way that you don't have a say over, and
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: they still create ructures, but their bottom up structures instead
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: of top down structures. So a lot of anarchists talk
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: about federations and so goods can still be transported everywhere,
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: and you know, things can be made and things can
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: be done in society can function, I believe within this
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: type of framework. And one of the other main distinctions
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: of it is that anarchists don't tend to separate the
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: means from the ends, so they so theoretically a state
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: communist or a communist, Marxist, communist, a Marxist, Leninist, et cetera,
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: believe in the creation of communism, which is a society
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: without a state, but they create a state or take
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: the state in order to do that. Anarchists believe that
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: the means and the ends are inseparable. And this is
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: where it ties into feminism. For me, well one, anarchist
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: feminism has been a large part of the feminist movement
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: throughout history, and feminism has been a large part of
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: the anarchist movement. But this idea that the means and
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: the ends are inseparable, you know, the idea of like
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: Our goal is to give more people more agency over
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: their own lives.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: Our goal is.
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: To teach consent and teach ways of relating to each
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: other as equals.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: Whether or not.
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: Even like we win and we get an anarchist society.
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: Our goal is to infuse our interpersonal relationships with this
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: sense of equality and agency and so and so. Direct
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: action is often a major focus of anarchism, and so
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: actually a thing that came up in my research. I
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: researched the Jain collective, who are amazing and they mostly
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: come from a socialist position and that allowed them to think,
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: we don't care about legality, We're going to get this done.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: And you know, Jain collective.
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: I presume most people are aware, but as an underground
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: abortion provider in Chicago that did an amazing work. I
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: later discovered that anarchists in Germany in the nineteen twenties
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: and thirties ran three hundred different illegal abortion providers all
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: across Germany. And they didn't do it in the name
• 36:03
  Speaker 5: of anarchism. It's just that this feminist movement that was
• 36:06
  Speaker 5: providing abortion came out of the anarchist organizing tradition. And
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: because they had that we're good at illegal stuff, we
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: care about agency, we care about all of these things,
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: they set up three hundred clinics. I'm going to have
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: my numbers fuzzy when I say this stuff. I don't
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: have my notes in front of me. Please don't quote
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: me direct what you all, but I mean, like anyone
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: listening at home, you know, don't be like exactly three hundred,
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: you know. And and I read that, and I was
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: just so excited, and I want to know more about that,
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: you know. And I only know the like Cliff Snows
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: versions because well, because there's a lot of really old
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: books that I have to read in order to really
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: understand it.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so that's what it is for me.
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: You know, there's it's a thing that means a lot
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: of different things to different people. Oh, but at the
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: very beginning I said, it's two things, and one it's
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: this specific ideological tradition, and then two it's its own
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: concept which has existed long before it's had a name.
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: And there's a lot of people doing work, especially from
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: non European backgrounds, about anarchic organizing that has very similar
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: like means and ends, but doesn't come from well this
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: old dead white guy with a beard said this, and
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: instead are like our traditions that are coming from North America,
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: or our traditions that are coming from you know, West
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: Africa or whatever, like tie in very well to this,
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: and this is how we see things, you know.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I don't know.
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: If that was a good one on one or not,
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: but no, that's that's where I'm coming from.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Politically, it's very good.
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: I love that because yeah, I don't, like I said,
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: the history is very fuzzy for me because, like I said,
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: I grew up in North Georgia, where everything's very binary anyway,
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: and when it comes to politics, either you're with us
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: or you aren't. Kind of conversations and having this level
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: of like, oh, anarchists has always been not a bad
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: word necessarily, but not necessarily a good one either.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: So it's kind of like it's you know, it's with
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: the foreigners. You just you got to put it out there.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: It's it's not part of the US culture and especially
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: Mountain culture.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: That's from me.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: But like that's a lot of like learning lessons of like, Okay,
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: this is exactly where I am and my standpoint. I
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: didn't know what it was necessarily not necessarily like bombing kings,
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: I'm not talking about that, but in general, just like
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: finding out what it is to be autonomous in understanding
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: that as a group we do things better the societal
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: aspect of everything.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: And of course, you know we're not going to talk.
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: About communism and how that does lie within the patriarchal ideals,
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: but like what I'm talking about in understanding I became
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: a social worker because I wanted to work for the collective.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: I wanted to be one who did a macro practice
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: over a micro ideal. And that's a big debate within
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: social work. When I was in social work. I don't
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: know if it's changed because it's been a minute since
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: I've been in school. But that was a big debate
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: about the macro micro of helping ammunity in society and
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: what does that look like and what did social work.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Began to be.
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: It came out of a macro practicing helping communities. That's
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: where it came to. And then it got you know,
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: dissected into well, I'll be a therapist, which is not
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: a bad thing, please understand. I believe that helps as
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: well a community when it's done correctly. But yeah, this
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: like understanding is like, oh okay, I've been practicing this,
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: this makes sense.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Oh okay.
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: When we talk about feminism, especially when we talk about
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: intersectional feminism, which is where we are today, and it's
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: shifted a lot.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: When we talk.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: About feminism, feminism from the origins of the word to
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: today has shifted greatly in a good way. I hope
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: as we are You're right, we have tracked backwards. As
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: now we can at least differentiate those who are bad
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: players when it comes to feminism, such as terces such
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: as the Rawlings fan base that sticks with her with
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: her stupidity. I like that outlet that, but I think
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: there's a whole level of conversation when we talk about
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: politics and understanding our platforms and growing together and what
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: does feminism look like?
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: And we had to revisit that.
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: Often any and I honestly probably every year or so,
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: come back and have a conversation of Okay, this is
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: the things that we've learned, this is what we see
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: in society, this is what we know that is changing vastly.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: The Black Lives Matter, massage, noir. You know, you have
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: to revamp that conversation about feminism. And I think as
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: we are going back to seeing the negativity towards the
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: queer community, the negativity towards the trans community, we have
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: to come back and revisit this conversation what does feminism
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: look like today? So in your opinion, and this is
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: a big question, and I'm sorry for this, this is
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: how I do. Do you think when you came out
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: your perspective of feminism changed in a positive negative manner?
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: Ale's part one B what do you see as a
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: positive infeminism today and as a negative infeminism today?
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So I'm going to answer the second part first,
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: I think, I think that intersectionality is the main beautiful
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: thing that is happening to feminism, you know, and having
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: people understand the way that well just literally how intersections work,
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: and how the issues that affect rich white women are
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: very different than the issues that affect rich black women,
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: that are very different from the issues that affect you know,
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: poor people of color, and it allows us to hopefully
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: be better to one another and to understand that like
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: instead of this like that we're all fighting in solidarity
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: with each other rather than as a united mass, right,
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: because we are all coming into feminism with our own
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: needs and our own priorities. But we can stand together
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: because we understand what we do have in common and
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: what we don't and how we can you know, and
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: how I can assume that well, like, Okay, for example,
• 42:17
  Speaker 5: Roe v. Waight affects me, but it does not affect
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: me bodily, right, I mean, if it destroys the right
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: to privacy and it gets used to prevent people from
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: medically transitioning, yes, but like I'm not having an abortion
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: anytime soon, and less medical you know, less medical technology advances.
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: And then there's always that joke about like wanting to
• 42:35
  Speaker 5: be the first trans woman to get an abortion.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: You know, just to fiss off everyone.
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: But and while abortion is more than a woman's issue
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: because it affects people who are not women bodily. You know,
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: it affects uh, trans people's, certain intersect people, certain non
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: binary people. You know, it affects a lot of people
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: right who are not women. It also is gender based discrimination,
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: and that gender based discrimination looks real similar to the
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: people who are telling me what I can do with
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: my body, and even if it wasn't something that affects
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: most women, affects me, right, And so being able to say,
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: like this matters to me, and like, I don't know,
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: it's just like finding these points of solidarity. I think
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: that this is like what intersectionality is really good for.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: I think that especially now, and I think this is
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: a newer addition. We're starting to see class introduced to
• 43:26
  Speaker 5: it into this intersectionality as well, and I think that
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: that's vital. I think one of the problems of the
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: old left is they reduced everything to class, right, But
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: one of the problems with the sort of essentially liberal
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: feminism is that it cuts class out of intersectionality. Sometimes
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: I don't actually believe the average person who identifies as
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: a liberal does. But the sort of like the agenda, yeah,
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: the larger. You know, there's such a difference between like
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: liberal politicians and liberals right, and so I think that
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: the introduction of class is very important because it's all
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: related to power. It all comes back to power as
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: far as I'm concerned, And class is a very strong
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: indicator of power. But so is race, so is ethnicity,
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: so is gender, so is sexual orientation. So that there's
• 44:13
  Speaker 5: so many other things that also relate to power in
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: terms of what I think feminism war feminism is like
• 44:32
  Speaker 5: misstepped or the things that are going badly. Fortunately, I
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: think the US has like largely avoided this because well,
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: because the right wing has a monopoly on hating trans
• 44:42
  Speaker 5: people in the United States.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: You know, it became a culture war thing to.
• 44:47
  Speaker 5: Not allow anyone be non binary, not allow anyone to
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: be trans or whatever within the United States along right
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: left lines. So, by and large, I don't run across
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: feminists who are like they then that's awful or whatever,
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: you know, or like you're not a real woman, you're
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: a you know, man in drag or whatever. I'm like,
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: I honestly don't care whatever I'm actually me, my pronouns
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: are I you know, like but in terms of how
• 45:14
  Speaker 5: society views me, like I'm finding the best possible, the
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: most useful description to provide for other people, you know.
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: But it is a problem I think with feminism internationally
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: and specifically in the UK right now, and it could
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: creep in in the United States, and so I really
• 45:31
  Speaker 5: I feel like I try to, you know, I think,
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: well kind of have to, but we all try to
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: kind of like keep that from creeping in.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: Is the turf thing.
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: Is the idea that feminism excludes trans people, which is
• 45:43
  Speaker 5: just historically myopic. You know, all of these things have
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: all been related. Even if you look at the history
• 45:50
  Speaker 5: of understanding homosexuality, you know, transness was not a distinct
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: category for a very long time. Of course, the people
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: who started to distinguish it were some Germans who then
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: the Nazis came and burned all their books and killed
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: the first woman to medically transition. The famous book burning photos.
• 46:09
  Speaker 5: Whenever you see that famous photo of Nazis burning books,
• 46:12
  Speaker 5: it was the Institute for Sexual I don't have it
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: off the top of my head. Is Hirschfeld's Institute where
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: he studied homosexuality and transness, and you know, was one
• 46:22
  Speaker 5: of the first medical practitioners to say, like, hey, if
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: you allow trans people to live as their showsen identity,
• 46:27
  Speaker 5: everything is better and they are medically healthier, you know.
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: Anyway, I don't know.
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: I'm rambling about that, but so so I guess I
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: would say that's like the advantages and disadvantages. I think
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: feminism is mostly just doing well, and it has more
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: it needs to do. It has more, especially I think
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: continuing especially along race lines, there's like way more that
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: feminism needs to do.
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: But what was the first of the two questions?
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: I was asking that since you transitioned came out, has
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: anything changed in your perspective of feminism.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: It took me a really long time to feel comfortable
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: eyeing myself in conversations about feminism. I spent a very
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: long time and put a lot of work into being
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: like an ally right, Like I used to write scenes
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: and stuff that were like feminism for men, you know,
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: and and not taking up conversational space was very important
• 47:23
  Speaker 5: to me, and so I like very much all of
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: my attention was focused outward towards like non feminism or
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: towards particularly towards men, to be like, hey, here's ways
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: to be more feminist. And so you know, there's like
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: this outsider syndrome, right that I have around it. And
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: I actually really appreciate the work that folks like you do,
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: I mean, even like inviting me here on this, you know,
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: and and the degree to which like so many you know,
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: CIS women and a fab people in general have this
• 47:55
  Speaker 5: this work they've done to be like, no, what are
• 47:57
  Speaker 5: you talking about, Like, no, it's it's actually totally.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: Fine, you know.
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: And I remember the first time I was invited to
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: like an all women's full Moon circle, you know, and
• 48:09
  Speaker 5: they were just like, hey, we're and I was kind
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: of their test case, right they had like they had
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: actually and actually I really respect them for this.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: They had just split they were all SIS.
• 48:19
  Speaker 5: Women like you know, full moon like ritual collective, right,
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: and they they had this hypothetical conversation about whether or
• 48:27
  Speaker 5: not they should include trans women, and it got so
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: heated that it split into two groups. And I really
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: appreciate the people who were like, this is so important
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: to me that even though it's a hypothetical, we will
• 48:40
  Speaker 5: like stand our ground around.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: This, you know.
• 48:42
  Speaker 5: And I felt a little bit like recruited where they
• 48:44
  Speaker 5: were like, ah, like come join us, you know, but
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: like it was mostly just good like yeah, you know,
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: so yeah, I guess that's how my my my view
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: wanted change. This is literally like including myself in a
• 48:57
  Speaker 5: more direct way and then allow allowing myself to because
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: I think when you're an ally to a movement, you
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: can promote the work of people within that movement, but
• 49:07
  Speaker 5: you generally don't try to like shape it or direct
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: it or whatever, you know. And allowing myself to feel
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: comfortable having a say is really interesting and still something
• 49:18
  Speaker 5: that I like, I still don't totally know, and it
• 49:22
  Speaker 5: helps that at the end of the day, I'm like,
• 49:23
  Speaker 5: well I have to say about me, right and my
• 49:26
  Speaker 5: perspective I'm really not trying to and not. Actually that's
• 49:28
  Speaker 5: where it comes with intersectionality in a good way.
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: So because I can't I can't speak to the experiences
• 49:33
  Speaker 5: of most women, I can speak to my experience, you know,
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: which is a white trans woman, which is a specific
• 49:41
  Speaker 5: set of things.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: You know, Well, as we've been discussing throughout this, you
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: are so so busy, You're doing it so much just
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: out of curiosity because we like to ask this, is
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: there anything that you do to kind of balance those
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: things out, like self care wise, how do you make
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: sure that it's not too much.
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: Well, my idea of relaxing is doing projects. So mostly
• 50:08
  Speaker 5: I try to do projects that don't make any money.
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: It's one of the main ways I do.
• 50:12
  Speaker 5: It, or like I don't know, Like right now, I'm
• 50:16
  Speaker 5: like trying to help my friend is a single mom,
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: Like make their watering system in their garden work so
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: that they don't have to work as much. And the
• 50:25
  Speaker 5: gardening thing just goes and it activates all the parts
• 50:28
  Speaker 5: of my brain. I like where I'm like puzzles and
• 50:30
  Speaker 5: like playing. I can't believe it's a part of my
• 50:32
  Speaker 5: brain that loves plumbing. But I lived in an off
• 50:34
  Speaker 5: grid cabin for a long time, so I you know,
• 50:37
  Speaker 5: I like doing things I'm vaguely good at, and.
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: So in terms of all.
• 50:44
  Speaker 5: Self care, I kind of got to get drag kicking
• 50:46
  Speaker 5: and screaming into it. I like hiking. I like, you know,
• 50:49
  Speaker 5: my truck is built out into a camper. My dog
• 50:52
  Speaker 5: is very needy because he's a puppy, and so I
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: gotta go on walks with him a lot.
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: I actually honestly need to get better at self care.
• 50:59
  Speaker 5: I have too many plates spinning, But sometimes the thing
• 51:03
  Speaker 5: that seems fun is setting up new plates to spin.
• 51:06
  Speaker 5: So maybe my idea of self care is finishing projects
• 51:11
  Speaker 5: right because then they're done, Yeah, and then you don't.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: Have to do them anymore.
• 51:15
  Speaker 5: And then the other thing I did is I I
• 51:18
  Speaker 5: require all new hobbies to be physical instead of on
• 51:21
  Speaker 5: the computer, because everything I do for money is on
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: a computer. So all hobbies, woodworking, gardening, anything like that.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: That is a good tip.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: That's a good one. I'll like it to unplug.
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: Yes, we know you need to go on and move
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: on to the bigger and better projects in the ten
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: thousand plates you've got going on. But where can our
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: listeners find you?
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: Well, first of all, this is not this is a
• 51:46
  Speaker 5: bigger and better I am so excited that you all
• 51:49
  Speaker 5: have me on this show. I'm like, I really think
• 51:51
  Speaker 5: it's cool that what you all do. But where can
• 51:54
  Speaker 5: people find me? You can find me on Twitter at
• 51:57
  Speaker 5: Magpie Kiljoy. You can find me on Instagram at Margot Killjoy.
• 52:00
  Speaker 5: Instagram is like mostly me posting pictures of my dog
• 52:03
  Speaker 5: or like instruments I make whereas Twitter is me pretending
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: like I would never fall into arguing about discourse on
• 52:09
  Speaker 5: the internet. No, sir, not me. And you can pre
• 52:13
  Speaker 5: order my book from Akpress. If you pre order it
• 52:15
  Speaker 5: before September twentieth, you'll get an art print that is
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: done by my friends, the same person who did the
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: cover art, and you can order that from Akpress or
• 52:24
  Speaker 5: a number of participating in bookstores, including cooperatively run bookstores
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: like Firestorm Books in Asheville or read Emma's Books in Baltimore.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: As I think.
• 52:33
  Speaker 5: Cooperatives are cool. Worker cooperatives are awesome, And you can
• 52:37
  Speaker 5: find me on whatever you listen to this podcast with.
• 52:41
  Speaker 5: You can find me at cool people who did cool stuff.
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: And you can go back in time and look up
• 52:46
  Speaker 5: the Jaine Collective episode and order to listen to Samantha
• 52:49
  Speaker 5: as well. And you can listen to Live Like the
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: World Is Dying, which is also on your podcast app.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much for being here with such
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: a delight, Please come back because there's so much I
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: was like, Oh, resonating with me, you're also my best
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: friend as well.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: Awesome.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: I feel like we had three other subjects that we
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: need to tackle.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: I want to talk about this, but I want to.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: I can't talk about the hobby right now.
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: Okay, oh, but but we should sometimes.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: I would love to also preparedness.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: That would be great.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, yes, well until that date. Thank you so much
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: for joining us. Come back anytime. Listeners. If you would
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: like to contact us, you can. Our email is stuffid
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: You mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: and Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: our superroducer Christina, thank you, and thanks to you for
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: listening Stuff and Never Told You the protection of iHeartRadio.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: out that I heart radio app. Have a podcast wherever
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.