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Embracing the Edges of Faith with Brian Pearson · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Martha Tatarnic welcomes Brian E. Pearson to the
0:50
show. Brian is a former Anglican priest who for
0:54
almost 40 years knew both the sublime and the
0:57
ridiculous of the church world, often loving it,
1:00
sometimes hating it, but eventually leaving to
1:03
follow his own path. He is the author of how the
1:06
Light Gets in Passion, Tide and Pie Faceboy. He is
1:11
a member of the Writers Guild of Alberta and the
1:14
Alexandra Writers Center Society. A singer
1:17
songwriter, Pearson is also the producer and host
1:21
of the Mystic Cave, a, uh, podcast that explores
1:24
the elements of both new and ancient of an
1:27
emerging contemporary spirituality. He lives in
1:30
Calgary, Alberta with his wife Jean, close to his
1:34
three grown children and two granddaughters. A,
1:38
uh, reminder before we start today's conversation,
1:40
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
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leave a review and share Future Christian with a
1:46
friend. You can connect with Loren, Martha and
1:49
Future Christian, um, on Instagram. We really
1:51
appreciate your voice and how we faithfully
1:54
discern the future of the church.
2:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your
2:07
host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic, and I'm
2:11
really happy today to be joined by Brian Pearson.
2:14
Welcome, Brian.
2:15
>> Brian E. Pearson: Thank you, Martha. It is, um, a great pleasure to
2:18
be here. This is the first podcast, um, interview
2:22
I've done since the books come out. So this is
2:24
exciting for me.
2:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh my gosh. Well, that's really exciting. Thank
2:27
you for making Future Christian first stop on your
2:31
podcast tour.
2:32
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah, you bet.
2:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's amazing. We were talking just before the
2:35
show began and noting that, uh, although we have
2:39
never met one another in person, um, we have a
2:42
million people in common and uh, have been
2:46
Facebook friends for a long time. That's how the
2:48
Anglican world works.
2:50
>> Brian E. Pearson: Is that very small?
2:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: And we're very connected to one another. Anyway,
2:56
it's great to have this face to face time with you
2:59
right now and uh, to be talking about your book.
3:03
So before we get into your book, let's just have a
3:06
couple of opening questions so that our listeners
3:10
get a bit of a Sense of you and, uh, who you are.
3:13
Maybe you could just share a little bit about your
3:16
faith journey, what it has looked like in the past
3:18
and what it looks like now. Broad brush strokes.
3:21
>> Brian E. Pearson: Sure. Um, so I am, um, cradle, ah, Anglican
3:28
churchgoing family, which was significant to me
3:32
and I think to the whole family because we moved a
3:34
lot back and forth across Canada and the church
3:38
became the way we kind of settled into every new
3:40
community. Um, so it was a very kind of familial
3:45
thing that we would get to know the local
3:47
community and uh, uh, the church would be our
3:51
portal. So, uh, church has always been part of my
3:55
life, part of my history, part of my blood.
3:57
Wherever I am at now, I still. I think I'd like an
4:01
Anglican funeral when I go. Um, but along the way,
4:06
uh, through the church, I was introduced in the
4:09
days of the Jesus People movement to, uh,
4:13
Evangelical Charismatic Christianity. And that was
4:16
a hoot. That was quite a wild ride, um, where
4:22
apart from sort of, uh, delighting in the power
4:25
and presence of the Holy Spirit, we were also
4:27
judging everyone, like, you know, my own parents
4:29
for not being Christian, having brought me up in
4:32
church. So had that experience. Um, went to, uh,
4:37
an Anglo Catholic, um, divinity school, which is
4:41
Trinity College. And those in the Canadian church
4:43
will recognize I had another option. Right across
4:46
the street was Wycliffe College, and that's the
4:49
Evangelical College. And that's where I should
4:50
have gone. Except part of me, and this is just
4:54
part of me, I kept thinking about. Yeah, but I
4:57
know nothing about the Anglo Catholic Church.
5:00
That's a, uh, mystery to me. So why don't I go
5:02
there? Yeah. Yeah. So I went there anyway. I ended
5:06
up being ordained, uh, was, um, in active ministry
5:10
for almost, uh, 40 years. Uh, loved the work, uh,
5:14
grew to be deeply disillusioned with working
5:17
within the church. And by the time I retired, um,
5:21
without slamming any doors, I left the church. I
5:24
just never went back. The first Easter came and
5:28
went. The first Christmas came and went. And I
5:31
kept thinking inwardly, like looking inwardly of
5:34
shouldn't I be going to church? And there was
5:36
nothing in me that wanted me to. So clearly a, uh,
5:40
level of disaffection had settled upon me. And
5:45
I've spent the last six and a half years exploring
5:49
all of the spiritual avenues that I felt were not
5:52
available to me while I was preaching the one way.
5:56
Uh, and it's been a fabulous ride. I still think
5:59
of myself as a follower of Jesus, but I rarely
6:04
have gone to church. And when I have, I know too
6:07
much. I can't Be uncritical. I sit in the pews
6:11
going, that was a dog of a sermon. I mean, we've
6:14
all come out to hear. And this was last Christmas
6:18
Eve. We've all come out to hear the word of God in
6:21
this sacred place. The music's great. And you have
6:25
no sermon for us other than, gee, it's hard to
6:27
preach about Christmas. Like, I can't turn off the
6:30
inner critic when I go to church. So I'm finding
6:33
other ways, other communities. And anyway, that's
6:36
broad strokes, what my journey has been.
6:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: So basically, you have covered a lot of spiritual
6:43
terrain.
6:44
>> Brian E. Pearson: I think so, yeah.
6:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: You've kind of done the whole gamut of Anglicanism
6:48
and beyond.
6:50
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah. Okay.
6:51
>> Martha Tatarnic: M. Interesting.
6:53
So, you know, right now, as somebody who, um,
6:58
isn't part of a Christian church, is there a
7:01
spiritual practice that has become particularly
7:04
meaningful for you in the last few years?
7:07
>> Brian E. Pearson: Um, yes, several, uh, things. Although, like, with
7:11
any spiritual practice, if I tell you what I'm
7:13
doing, I'll be judged as a hypocrite because
7:18
practices come and go and you're good at them,
7:20
then you're bad at them and you remember them and
7:22
you go back. But I do every, uh, morning I do
7:25
about a half hour stretching exercise. And it was
7:28
developed purely to strengthen my core, to protect
7:31
my lower back because I have lower back issues.
7:35
But the more that my body has become a part of,
7:38
excuse me, my spiritual path, that morning stretch
7:44
time has become like a spiritual exercise. It's
7:48
almost. There were times, it's almost like dance,
7:51
where I'm moving from one movement to the next.
7:54
And they all have a purpose in terms of my
7:58
strengthening my core. But there's something else
8:01
going on there that I quite love. I also do a, uh,
8:04
I, uh, honor the four directions and have my own
8:07
kind of ritual around that at the conclusion of
8:09
it, um, even more hypocritically, um, I gotta get
8:15
out in nature. Uh, I've spent the whole summer
8:18
almost indoors, so trying to sell this book and
8:23
attending to it, attending to all the stuff about
8:25
starting up my own podcast for a new season. And
8:29
I've spent almost. I've either been indoors or in
8:31
the car. Uh, but when I can get out in the natural
8:35
world, that's become a part of my spiritual
8:37
discipline. And not just going for a hike in the
8:38
mountains because we're close to the mountains
8:40
here, but going on what I would call wild wanders.
8:44
You leave the path and you go with intention and
8:47
wonder what the natural world has for you. The
8:51
other, I guess these I'll uh, just add two more
8:54
things, but just briefly. One is I nurture a very
8:57
wide network of fellow seekers who have become my
9:02
new community. Because I don't think you can do
9:05
this spiritual journey without feeling a part of
9:09
some community. So, um, I nurture that. Uh, I
9:13
spend a lot of time, uh, with people individually
9:15
and in small groups. Um, and apart from that,
9:20
there's something about the spiritual discipline
9:22
of being present that, um, has totally grasped me.
9:27
So I just paying attention to where is the divine
9:31
in this moment, where is the divine in our
9:33
conversation? What's coming up from the inside
9:35
that I want to pay attention to? It's that
9:39
sacrament of the present moment, you know, um,
9:42
that I try to cultivate. That's pretty broad too,
9:45
though, isn't it? That whole.
9:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: I mean, certainly I wouldn't define anything on
9:49
that list as hypocritical. Uh, I feel like.
9:54
>> Brian E. Pearson: Well, I don't always do it.
9:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, that's the hypocritical part. I see. Okay.
9:59
>> Brian E. Pearson: I love to get out in nature. Yeah. And it's been
10:01
two months since I've had a good walk in nature.
10:03
So.
10:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: I see.
10:04
>> Brian E. Pearson: Hypocritical.
10:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, okay, Right, right. But, um, yes, I
10:11
understand the way that writing books is one thing
10:14
and selling them is another thing.
10:16
>> Brian E. Pearson: No kidding. Yeah.
10:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay. Well, I think all of that gives us a
10:21
really good platform from which to jump into your
10:25
book. Talking to a Journ into Soul.
10:29
And there's a lot in this book I've kind of
10:31
focused, um, my questions and our conversation
10:36
today around church leadership. And, uh, you know,
10:41
you have a wealth of experience in church
10:44
leadership. Um, but I think we'll touch on a lot
10:47
of different things that people will find
10:49
interesting. So your book starts by, um, you
10:54
talking about standing outside of a church,
10:57
watching people coming out and wanting to ask them
11:01
questions about why they're there and what they're
11:05
looking for and what message they heard and where
11:09
they expect to encounter God. Um, quite a
11:15
fascinating list of questions, especially on your
11:18
way out of a church rather than on your way into a
11:22
church. But, uh, what has the role of the church
11:25
been in your spiritual journey, Brian?
11:32
>> Brian E. Pearson: So I feel, um, oddly tremendous gratitude for the
11:36
role the church has played in my life. And I think
11:41
it provided for me a kind of container for all of
11:44
my spiritual curiosity until the container became
11:48
too small. But in the early days, like, as I say,
11:52
as a family, going to church was like, um, going
11:57
home. Even if we were in a brand, we'd moved to a
11:59
brand new community. So there was A sense of, uh,
12:04
belonging that I could just take for. In some
12:06
ways, I think about my. I talk about this with
12:09
some of my friends, uh, in ministry that, um, it
12:13
was very easy to find myself drawn to ordained
12:17
ministry because I already felt this was my
12:19
community. What's my role within this community?
12:22
It didn't occur to me to think outside of the
12:25
community other than I was singing songs and
12:27
trying to get recorded. And there was a part of me
12:30
that wanted to explore, uh, being a musician. So
12:35
actually I quit divinity school for a year to
12:37
explore that. And it was fun and disastrous at the
12:40
same time. I just met so many broken musicians who
12:44
were playing in bars and on Holiday Inn hotels.
12:47
Uh, just not. I just realized, okay, that's not my
12:50
vocation. But there was something about the
12:54
familial sense of the church where it just, it
12:58
contained me in a very creative way. But I had a
13:03
guest on my own podcast a couple of years ago who
13:07
named something that was quite shocking. He's a,
13:09
uh, he's a Christian mystic and, um, a lovely man
13:14
deep in his faith. And I asked him about church
13:16
going about himself because he had said something
13:20
off mic that sounded kind of critical. So I just
13:22
said, so what's church going like for you? And he
13:26
said, and then I think regretted saying it. He
13:28
said, church going seems to be geared for the
13:31
beginners. M And that as he grew deeper in his
13:35
faith, and in his case it was the mystic side of
13:39
Christianity. So contemplation, meditation, um,
13:44
churchgoing felt like it was all container and no
13:50
invitation. It wasn't an invitation to grow bigger
13:53
and beyond. And when he said that, I mean, it
13:57
stuck with me because I thought, yes, that was my
14:00
experience, that, uh, the church was a wonderful
14:04
container until it felt like it was holding me
14:08
back from a natural curiosity that led me to want
14:13
to explore all sorts of spiritual truths and
14:18
experiences and practices on the edges of our
14:21
faith. And the church doesn't like you to go
14:24
there. So, um, talking like communing with the
14:27
dead? Yeah, not so much. The church talks a lot
14:30
about the communion of saints.
14:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
14:33
>> Brian E. Pearson: But don't actually try to connect with one and
14:35
have a conversation with one, because that just
14:38
gets too spooky. In our church here in Calgary, we
14:42
once hosted a weekend workshop about death and
14:46
dying, but it was not about the Christian view of
14:49
death and dying. We talk about that every week. It
14:52
was anecdotally people who work in hospice, people
14:56
who are spiritualists who facilitate, um,
15:00
conversations with dead people. Uh, we had all
15:03
these people come and give um, a presentation
15:05
about what actually happens in death, quite apart
15:09
from what we believe about death. This to me was
15:13
where the church ought to be pushing out the
15:16
bounds. We could do this, but we had to do it
15:19
secretively so that my bishop wouldn't know until
15:23
afterwards that we had done this. And I thought,
15:26
that's not right. So anyway, so as a container,
15:30
when I needed it, the church was great. And then
15:32
as my curiosity and interest began to deepen and
15:37
grow, the container was actually, um, an
15:40
impediment.
15:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I find it, um, interesting, the pieces
15:49
of those 40 years in parish leadership and kind of
15:54
the lifelong, um, participation in the life of the
15:57
church. Um, I think it's interesting the parts
16:01
that you have brought forward into the edges of
16:06
um, our Christian faith, particularly your note
16:10
around the importance of community, the importance
16:13
of one another's stories of um, not trying to do
16:18
this alone or forge this alone. Um, uh, but yeah,
16:25
there are some boundaries, um, that are always
16:30
being pushed at. If you look at the church that is
16:34
today, it's quite different, um, than it was a
16:38
couple of generations ago. But a lot of people get
16:42
their eyebrows singed off as they sort of nudge at
16:47
those boundaries.
16:48
>> Brian E. Pearson: But, you know, so I was thinking about one of the
16:53
details of the early part of Jesus ministry, um,
16:58
that I think we brush over is when he was ready to
17:02
start his earthly ministry. He did not go to the
17:07
Jewish establishment in Jerusalem. He knew that
17:10
was a non starter. He hadn't gone to the right
17:13
schools. They would not acknowledge he was an
17:15
itinerant preacher from nowhere. Um, he knew that
17:20
the core of his religious community could not give
17:24
him the validation or affirmation that he would
17:27
have wanted, even if it was just ceremonial, so
17:29
that he could begin his ministry. So he went out
17:32
to John the Baptist, who was truly, literally an
17:36
eccentric. He was off center. Uh, it sounds
17:40
personally a little off center, but also off
17:43
center culturally. He was out on the edges and
17:46
that's where Jesus went. As if that's the only
17:49
place new life can be identified, can be
17:52
recognized at the edges. Because what happens at
17:56
the core, and then talking about the church, what
17:59
happens in the core is that we become by nature
18:02
very conservative. Our view is like when we ordain
18:06
a bishop, one of the functions of the bishop is
18:09
defender of the faith. I'm thinking, give me a
18:13
break. If this faith is so fragile, it needs a
18:15
human being to defend it, you know, like it's not
18:19
worthy. It's not worthy of us. Like we don't have
18:22
to Defend this. We have a great mythic story that
18:26
we need to tell and ritualize and all the things
18:28
that the church does, does well. But new life is
18:33
always going to come from the edges. And usually
18:36
that's exactly where the church doesn't want to
18:38
go. It says, well, I don't know, that's a little
18:40
woo woo. Yeah, maybe that's a little woo woo. And
18:43
that's maybe exactly where we need to go. Maybe we
18:46
should be talking to dead people a little bit more
18:48
or whatever's out there on the edge.
18:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I think that's beautiful, um, and very apt
18:57
to point out where Jesus ministry begins, uh, and
19:02
who he begins it with as well. I mean he really
19:05
does sort of go to the highways and the byways and
19:09
invite the stragglers to be part of starting this
19:14
with him. So, um, you know, really good wisdom
19:18
there. I want to say, Brian, as I was. Well, you
19:23
know, I want our listeners to get some good plugs
19:27
for your book because, um, it is so readable. Um,
19:33
it's just you're never just like taking uh, a
19:38
point and you know, sort of breaking it down. Like
19:41
you're telling stories every step of the way and
19:46
then little nuggets emerge from those stories. It
19:50
kind of always starts story based.
19:54
And of course what struck me the most, um, as a
20:01
person in Christian leadership were the parish
20:05
stories, you know, the stories of the people that
20:08
you meet along the way in parish ministry. Um, and
20:15
I think that you do a beautiful job of being
20:17
really honest and also joyful and loving about um,
20:24
those people and about those communities and not
20:27
just what you taught them, but what you learned
20:30
from them.
20:31
>> Brian E. Pearson: Thank you.
20:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, I think people who are in the trenches right
20:35
now in parish ministry are just going to really
20:38
have a lot of points of connection to those
20:42
stories because they're beautiful and they're
20:44
funny and they're uh, poignant and they're a
20:50
little uncomfortable at times and their honesty,
20:53
you know, all the things. Right.
20:55
>> Brian E. Pearson: Thank you. Thank you for that. Because isn't that
20:59
really where the rubber hits the road? Like, even
21:02
though the last 10 years of my ministry, or less
21:05
than that, I was in constant conflict with my
21:08
bishop and that colored everything because, uh,
21:11
our bishop would, uh, not permit, um, same sex
21:16
blessings, let alone marriages. As the only urban
21:19
diocese in the country, and we were a downtown
21:21
church, lots of gay people, lots of people from
21:23
across the spectrum in our parish. So increasingly
21:29
it became, um, a difficult and in the end
21:34
untenable, uh, context within which to do the
21:37
ministry. But as you're saying the relationships
21:41
with the people, that's where, like, my. So
21:44
whatever conflict I had with the bishop in the end
21:46
did not matter when it came to my people. Except
21:50
actually when we began to lose some people who
21:52
said, I can't belong to a denomination that's this
21:55
backward. And it broke my heart. Right. Uh, but
21:58
otherwise, it's those relationships that you're
22:01
referring to. Those are the things that. Where
22:04
lives get changed. M. Yeah.
22:07
>> Martha Tatarnic: And if that's not where the rubber hits the road,
22:09
then, like, count me out, you know, like, if it
22:14
doesn't get embodied in real people's lives, if
22:16
it's just ideas and teachings, like correct.
22:22
>> Brian E. Pearson: Theology, correct practice, well, at some point,
22:24
nobody cares. Like, make it real or go home.
22:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, make it real. And actually, like, we don't
22:32
have to make it real. Like, we just need to pay
22:33
attention. It is real. Like it's happening, you
22:36
know, just, like, pay attention. Um, yeah.
22:40
So when you look back over those 40 years in
22:43
ministry, what. What would you say was most life
22:47
giving about serving in church?
22:50
>> Brian E. Pearson: Well, certainly what you just identified, um, the
22:54
privilege of being allowed into people's lives.
22:59
That was number one. I just, even as a young
23:02
priest, I was inexperienced, didn't know what I
23:05
was doing. And because I was ordained, I was
23:08
playing a role. I got invited into people's lives,
23:12
into the. I mean, early on my second parish, I
23:15
buried a 14 year old who had died of leukemia. Uh,
23:19
and, um, I mean, it was beyond my own life
23:22
experience. And it just was a horrific experience.
23:27
At the same time, the privilege of journeying with
23:31
her, with Jennifer, and then with her parents in
23:34
the years that followed, I just remember, like,
23:37
who gets to do this? It was solemn, difficult
23:42
work, and it demanded something of me to show up,
23:45
uh, without being trite and without, like. So the
23:49
privilege of traveling with people has just been
23:53
enormous. And interestingly, a friend of mine
23:55
who's a deacon in the church here said to me a
23:58
little while ago, she said, brian, you haven't
24:00
left your ministry. You're still doing all the
24:03
things that you do. And it's true. I had to think,
24:06
yeah, I see a lot of people for coffee. And I
24:09
realized that that pastoral ministry has continued
24:12
under another umbrella where they're not seeing me
24:15
because I'm their priest. We're just tracking each
24:17
other. So that I have to say, and not just because
24:21
I went to an Anglo Catholic college. I loved the
24:24
liturgy. I loved that there was a communal ritual
24:29
that carried us through an experience. Um, and all
24:35
we had to do was prepare the Ground for it. I used
24:39
to say this to people when we were working on
24:41
liturgies together. I'd say our job is to create
24:44
the preconditions for an encounter with the holy,
24:47
with God. Our job is not to make that encounter
24:50
happen. We cannot make it happen. But if we do the
24:54
right preparation and then step out of the way and
24:56
everyone just do their job, just perform your job,
25:01
an encounter is possible. And, um, obviously I
25:06
feel myself getting impassioned about it. I still
25:08
believe it, that, um, a well done liturgy, a
25:13
ritual that connects with people's experience.
25:17
It's like, even as the priest, I wasn't running
25:19
it. I was part of it. I was swept along. And now,
25:22
as you know, there's parts you have to pay
25:24
attention to where you're working. Uh, I'd never
25:27
felt like worship in the same way as when I could
25:30
worship at some other church or when someone else
25:33
was presiding or preaching. But it did feel like
25:36
an enormous, uh, privilege. And I loved to preach.
25:41
You know, I like words. And there are. And
25:44
especially once I began storytelling rather than
25:48
lecturing. There's a chapter in the book about
25:49
that where I began recognizing, hey, Jesus never
25:54
gave a lecture in his life. He told stories. What
25:57
am I doing lecturing people about correct
25:59
theology? When that happened, preaching became a
26:03
whole lot more fun. And because sometimes there'd
26:06
be times in the middle of the sermon, I'd go off
26:08
and tell a story. Cause it really seemed that that
26:11
was a story that needed to be told, finish it, and
26:13
have no idea where I was in the sermon. And the
26:16
congregation grew to love it because they would
26:18
see the look on my face and I'd go, okay, I have
26:21
no idea where we are right now. And have to kind
26:23
of find our way back. So all of that deep
26:28
privilege, uh, and a lot of fun.
26:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. And, um, you know, that liturgy piece,
26:37
um, that certainly is the container as well that
26:41
you talk about. Like, that can be pretty vast. It
26:44
can be a pretty vast container.
26:47
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yes.
26:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: And I'm, you know, I'll have these moments when
26:52
I'm leading liturgy, and I, like, just little
26:56
things are not going well, and I'm feeling myself,
26:59
like, irritated or worried or whatever. And if I
27:03
can just stop and pray for a moment, like, please,
27:08
God, like, despite all of the stuff that isn't
27:11
quite going the way I want, can, like, just please
27:14
show up for people, you know, like, at least just
27:16
let people have an encounter. Um, and that's that
27:21
kind of getting out of the way piece that you have
27:24
to do on a Pretty regular basis because it's a
27:27
human offering. And that's right.
27:30
>> Brian E. Pearson: Our ego's attach to those roles and we want it to
27:34
go well. And that's. I remember though, in my
27:38
church in, uh, Oakville, we started doing the
27:41
offering, the laying out of hands during the
27:43
Eucharist. And um, because that was a parish that
27:46
had, uh. The Order of St. Luke was, uh, uh,
27:49
influential in its. In its, uh, culture. So we
27:54
started doing, uh, the laying on of hands. And we
27:56
did everything we could not to make it
27:58
Pentecostal. Like, we wanted it to be Anglican. So
28:02
we had, you know, a routine of how people indicate
28:05
they wanted the laying on of hands and they came
28:06
up to the altar and um. But I remember we went
28:10
through it and so we'd start. We started doing
28:13
that and I would often feel I'm doing my job. This
28:16
is my Sunday morning gig. And now I'm laying hands
28:18
on people. And I have these words that I say, and
28:21
I'm sincere in this moment. I feel nothing. I'm
28:24
just doing what we've offered to do. And I
28:27
remember this parishioner, this woman Cathie, who
28:30
came up to me afterwards and said, whoa. Like,
28:33
wasn't that incredible? Did you feel that? No. She
28:38
had had this incredible experience of opening that
28:41
was like opening her body up, opening everything
28:44
up. When I had done the laying on of hands, I felt
28:48
nothing. I was probably thinking, uh, okay, this
28:50
is going on too long. Oh, uh, how we can we clip
28:53
the end of the service a bit? Like, who knows
28:55
where my head was?
28:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
28:57
>> Brian E. Pearson: Truly, we just did it. And in doing it, something
29:00
was happening in spite of us. I always remember
29:02
that, like, it doesn't matter. It's not about me.
29:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: It's not about me.
29:07
>> Brian E. Pearson: If I do it.
29:08
Piece of ministry that, uh, is particularly
29:11
effective. Okay. I'm a functionary here, and I
29:14
just have to be open to the spirit. And I may or
29:17
may not. So I didn't get the buzz she got.
29:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that that, uh. That's a
29:23
pretty constant thing that we have to keep track
29:26
of is, um, how this isn't ultimately about us.
29:31
A lot of our guests, a lot of our listeners are in
29:36
the thick of church leadership right now. And, um,
29:40
you know, we have a lot of conversations around
29:43
burnout and around kind, um, of the stresses of
29:47
ministry. You know, you named already, like, just
29:51
a lot of ongoing conflict with the institutional
29:54
church. But what, like, what would you say, or
29:58
would you say that there was anything in
29:59
particular about parish ministry that took a toll
30:06
along with all of those amazing things that are
30:11
certainly true too.
30:13
>> Brian E. Pearson: Well, some of this is very much on me. Um, if I'm
30:19
passionate about something. Like as I mentioned,
30:22
I've spent the whole summer trying to sell books.
30:25
It's been like I've missed opportunities to go
30:27
hiking, to do all sorts of other things. I'm in
30:30
this particular zone and I get pretty, um. Well,
30:34
it's not ocd, but it is sort of. I do get
30:37
compulsive, so. And I loved my work. So what took
30:41
the greatest toll on me, I think was a kind of,
30:44
um, burnout of I would work until I had nothing
30:48
left. And um, right when, when I was. It was
30:52
interesting when I was in your part of the world
30:54
and I was in Oakville once a month I learned to
30:57
take a, A, um, one day retreat overnight, one day,
31:01
full day retreat at the Sisters of the Church, who
31:05
had a convent at that point in Oakville. And it
31:08
was my attempt just to say every so often I have
31:11
to stop, I have to get off this train. So I found
31:16
that to be, um. And it makes me critical in. Much
31:22
like the old guy looking back, looking at a new
31:25
generation who are very concerned to get their
31:27
time off. And I remember the assistant curate who
31:30
wanted Christmas off because it would be the last
31:32
time that he would have Christmas, you know, with
31:34
his family thing. No, you should have thought of
31:36
that before you went into this line of work, pal.
31:38
Um, I don't understand because when I see clergy
31:42
being really, really protective of their personal
31:44
time, I get it, because I wasn't. At the same
31:48
time, it's like, this isn't a job. This isn't a 40
31:53
hour. This is like your life. And yes, you have to
31:57
put, you know, safeguards around your family time
32:00
and your personal time. Yes, all that. But anyway,
32:04
that, that in the end I was quite given to
32:08
exhaustion. And I could tell coming out of every
32:10
summer after my vacation, I'd, uh, get into
32:13
September at this time of year and I'd be grumpy
32:16
as hell because I had to gear up, I had to rev up
32:20
for a whole new season of programs and I just kind
32:24
of wanted to go back to bed, but apart. So that.
32:28
The other thing though was how much my conflict
32:32
with the bishop took out of me. I hate conflict.
32:37
And um, I just felt he was so wrong. And it was
32:42
entirely the wrong message for the church to be
32:44
giving, uh, the wider world that, um, that we see,
32:50
uh, same sex relationships as subpar and whatever.
32:54
I mean all the language he never used, but it was
32:58
all implied by his actions. And. And there were
33:01
six of us, six clergy who defied him and did a,
33:04
um, uh, an irregular, uh, wedding ceremony. And
33:10
technically, you could say it was of two women,
33:12
but one of them was trans. And so it got very
33:14
confusing. Who's getting married here? But it's
33:17
like I didn't care. And they had come to us
33:20
wanting a church wedding, so we gave it to them,
33:22
knowing what would happen. And it did. He called
33:25
us into his office and, uh, threatened that we do
33:28
that again, we're all going to be fired. That was
33:31
very stressful for me.
33:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, yeah.
33:34
>> Brian E. Pearson: I just. I hated that level. And. And it got. And
33:37
unfortunately, it got personal because I. I got so
33:42
angry that he was compromising my ability to do
33:45
the job I thought I was supposed to be doing. Um,
33:49
that I, uh, wrote him some pretty nasty letters,
33:52
and I hope he's burned them. I hope that those are
33:54
not in my file somewhere, because I couldn't find
33:58
a way to be charitable with someone who had power
34:02
over me in that way. M. That was very hard.
34:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, thank you for just being
34:10
candid about those different pieces, because I
34:13
think such an important part of this podcast is
34:15
to. To provide an honest space for people who are
34:20
wrestling with all of those ups and downs of
34:23
ministry on a daily basis. And, you know, whether
34:27
it's conflict in the parish or conflict within the
34:30
institution, there really is no way of, like,
34:33
standing for something without getting into the
34:37
crossfire here and there. And Jesus has quite a
34:40
few words about warning us about that reality. So,
34:45
um. But it does take its toll. It really does.
34:48
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah. And in the end, I think that is. I couldn't
34:51
have named it, but in the end, when I left, it
34:54
was. It wasn't like, I'm never going back to
34:57
church. It was not that. I just thought, let's
34:59
see, because I'd had that premonition, um, I write
35:03
about that in the book of an actual voice that,
35:06
you know, spoke to me, saying, um, when you're
35:09
done, you'll be gone. Or, you know, when you go,
35:11
you'll be done. Um, and so I. And realized, uh,
35:15
no, I really am done. So it had taken a toll
35:19
beyond just in the moment. It took a toll that I
35:22
didn't. I no longer wanted to be associated with
35:25
the institution, at least in this part of the
35:28
world. I think if I'd been in another diocese,
35:31
somewhere else, that could have affirmed the good
35:33
work I felt that we were doing in my parish. Or,
35:36
um, that may not have been true, but in this part
35:38
of the world. It was like, no, I really am done.
35:41
And that's a big cost.
35:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, let's dig into that a little bit more. Um,
35:49
not just the toll, but where your ministry took
35:52
you. Because the other part that I really hear in
35:55
your book, um, isn't just about the toll. It's
35:58
about the journey. And by the time you got to the
36:00
end of 40 years, you were in a very different
36:03
place than when you started. Um, you articulate a
36:07
lot of curiosity that led you into a lot of
36:11
conversations with, uh, like a Wiccan high priest
36:17
and with spiritualists and, um, with thinking
36:22
about orbs and where the dead actually are and how
36:28
we communicate with them and all of those kinds of
36:31
things that took place within the context of
36:34
parish ministry.
36:36
>> Brian E. Pearson: What.
36:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: What did you kind of feel like was important in
36:41
those conversations that you were modeling as a
36:43
Christian leader? Because I don't feel like it was
36:47
as something outside of parish ministry that you
36:50
were doing. I feel like it was out of being a
36:54
Christian leader that you ended up in these
36:57
different places.
36:58
>> Brian E. Pearson: I so appreciate you saying that. Um, yeah, um, I
37:04
think my contention grew because of my natural
37:08
curiosity that, um, we don't have the whole story.
37:13
The church doesn't. We have our story, and that's
37:17
fair. We should tell our story, but we don't have
37:20
the whole story. And so in regards to communing
37:24
with the dead, um, the church, there's, uh, a. In
37:28
Leviticus, it says, you know, we shouldn't be
37:30
consorting with the spirits of the dead. And then
37:33
what happens? The very core of the Christian.
37:35
Christian story is the disciples consorting with a
37:37
dead man, Jesus. You know, it's sort of like if
37:41
they had been taken serious, taking seriously
37:43
Leviticus, they would have said, when Jesus
37:45
reappeared, we're not allowed to talk to you. So
37:50
it felt to me, by being so protective and in that
37:54
protectiveness, fearful of the edges of our
37:59
Christian experience, that, um, we were selling
38:03
the story short. I don't know that churches should
38:06
be having spiritualist meetings where they're
38:09
talking to dead people, but they shouldn't be
38:10
afraid of them.
38:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, well, you know what? Let me just share a
38:14
little anecdote with you because I think this is
38:17
really relevant. Um, a colleague of mine did a
38:22
thesis for, I think, her Master of Theological
38:26
Studies, and she did it on, um, experiences that
38:32
people in our churches have had with those who
38:36
have died. So, like, encounters of some kind. And
38:40
she found in her research that, like, the vast
38:44
majority of people in our churches have had some
38:48
kind of encounter, like maybe 75% or something,
38:52
but they almost never talked to their parish
38:55
priest about it.
38:56
>> Brian E. Pearson: That's right, that's right.
38:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: But, but if you go digging, almost like three out
39:02
of four people have had an experience. Like, so,
39:06
yeah, like, why wouldn't we be talking about that?
39:09
Like, why wouldn't that, like of all places, a
39:13
faith community. Why wouldn't it be like, totally
39:17
important to talk about how you make sense of that
39:20
and what that means and how it feels and how it
39:23
gives hope and you know, all of those things?
39:28
>> Brian E. Pearson: Like, uh, because it is people's experience. If
39:31
you address it and acknowledge it, people will
39:33
love you for that. They'll say, I go to this great
39:36
church, you know, where they actually talk about
39:38
my experience as opposed to those 75% going, I go
39:42
to a really good church where I can't tell them
39:44
actually that I just, you know, had a visit with
39:47
my dead father. Um, also, you know, another one.
39:51
But I do think the church is moving in this
39:53
direction. Part of my post ministry explorations
39:57
has been around what I would call the area of
39:59
animism, where what does it mean that God is
40:03
invested in the creation, that God made, like
40:08
present in this creation. When I go on these wild
40:11
wanders, it is with the expectation that God is
40:14
going to show up. I don't use that language so
40:16
much anymore myself, but that's really what I'm
40:19
looking for, that God is in the natural world. And
40:23
if I am open, as open to that as I am to, uh, God
40:27
being present in other people and in rituals that
40:31
are important, um, what does God have to tell me
40:35
through the natural world? Now the church
40:38
traditionally has been very suspicious of that. I
40:41
mean they've given it a name, animism, um, of
40:44
something which is um, tantamount to um, ah,
40:49
heresy. Yet what is to prevent us from celebrating
40:57
the God who is in creation? We're not saying God
41:00
isn't in Jesus, isn't in the church, uh, but out
41:03
there on the edges, people are encountering the
41:06
divine in all sorts of ways. And if the church
41:10
isn't naming those, if the church isn't embracing
41:12
them, isn't even recognizing them, what relevance
41:15
does the church have to modern day seekers? Like
41:19
people are finding God without that language in
41:22
the natural world?
41:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, yeah, I mean, it's not even just a question
41:27
of what it says about seekers or two seekers. Uh,
41:32
I think you've named this already. Like it is.
41:35
What are we saying about God? Like, are we really
41:38
like inviting people to know the God that they can
41:41
only know like on Sunday mornings in this
41:44
particular space. Like, is that. Is that the
41:48
invitation? Like, yeah, uh, it's. It's a pretty
41:53
limited invitation.
41:54
>> Brian E. Pearson: Well, Varian, we wonder why people aren't
41:56
attracted. Attracted to the Church and why you,
41:59
uh, probably found the same thing. Whenever clergy
42:02
end up, like, in murder mysteries, like, as a
42:05
character, they're either crazy or they're the one
42:08
who did it. Like, the world doesn't have any
42:12
positive images of clergy, it seems, which is, I
42:16
think, is sort of symptomatic of the modern world.
42:20
Doesn't know what to do with the church at all
42:22
because we don't seem to be part of the modern
42:24
world. So, um, there's something about embracing
42:30
the spiritual search of our age. It doesn't mean
42:34
not telling our story. And here's the thing I'd
42:37
want to say, um, the church should feel proud and
42:43
privileged, uh, uh, to tell its mythic story. It's
42:47
got a beautiful mythic story. A creator, right? A
42:51
creator who so loves what the Creator has made,
42:54
that is willing to suffer to bring in the
42:59
creation, um, to, uh, their fold. Like, there's
43:03
just this lovely sense of even Jesus, death on the
43:07
cross, if not understood as atonement, as having
43:11
to make up. Because we're all really bad, bad
43:13
children who need to be punished. So Jesus gets
43:16
punished for us, which I think is. Okay, that may
43:19
have worked in some generation that doesn't work
43:22
now. But as part of the mythic story, this is how
43:25
far the Creator was willing to go to bring us
43:27
back. Like, it's a beautiful story.
43:30
So if.
43:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, it's a beautiful story, it's an honest
43:33
story. It talks about the things that actually
43:37
happen, like suffering and death actually happen.
43:39
Like, that is the human condition, right? So what
43:44
resources do we have for dealing with suffering
43:47
and death? Because it's gonna be on the table.
43:51
>> Brian E. Pearson: It's baked into the story so we can celebrate the
43:56
story that we have to tell. And when I say
43:58
celebrate, preach it, uh, uh, build our liturgies
44:02
around it. I think all of that's important. But
44:05
it's not then to say we've got the whole story.
44:08
No, we don't. This is our story. We want to tell
44:12
it. We want the world to know it. But it's not the
44:14
only thing going on. And therefore we can learn. I
44:19
mean, one of the things I've done since, uh, I've
44:22
started this great, um, safari, Spiritual safari,
44:26
was, uh, get to know the shaman, um, the
44:30
shamanistic traditions. I mean, I've met my spirit
44:33
guides and my power Animals like. I can't imagine
44:36
that happening in church. But as I've tried to
44:39
process, makes sense. It makes sense that in the
44:44
imaginal world we open ourselves to a world of
44:49
mystery. That in the church we think about angels,
44:52
but we don't want to get too literal about it.
44:54
Maybe we should, maybe we should get literal about
44:57
angels. Um, but there are experiences that if
45:01
we're able to acknowledge them, even if we don't
45:04
go there, even if we don't embrace them, um, will
45:06
help our people because it's naming something they
45:09
already know. So, um, I'm hesitating getting into
45:14
any great depth about shamanism. But I do have
45:16
theories about. Can I actually. Let me share and
45:19
then you can cut this out if you want. Here's what
45:23
I think. Um, in the Ignatian spiritual tradition,
45:27
um, often m, the imagination, uh, is engaged in
45:33
meditation, right? And so for instance, someone
45:37
meditating in that tradition would call to mind or
45:40
read a scene from the Gospels and they would
45:44
imagine in great detail all the sensory details.
45:47
What did it smell like? Was it hot? Was it cold?
45:51
Um, who were you? Were you a member of the crowd?
45:53
Were you one of the disciples? Were you Jesus? Um,
45:57
all the things to invest yourself with, your
45:59
imagination. You're playing and then when you
46:03
entered the story. And I used to do Ignatian
46:06
meditation as my own daily practice. Once you
46:09
start to enter a story, there's a point where you
46:12
let go and you're no longer making it happen.
46:16
There is something happening in that meditation
46:18
that you didn't plan. Somebody turns and says
46:21
something to someone else. Someone does something.
46:24
Where did that come from if not from the depths
46:28
where we might say inspired by the presence of God
46:33
within. What I discovered about shamanism, it's
46:36
the same thing. It's so the shaman beats a drum
46:40
and it's meant it's at a very fast, uh, pace. Um,
46:45
it all helps to change the brain waves. But
46:48
ultimately it's all about opening to that imaginal
46:52
participation in the universe where I'm going to
46:56
just let my imagination carry me. That is frowned
46:59
upon in the modern age, in the scientific age. And
47:02
yet I think all primitive, so called primitive
47:05
peoples, um, used their imagination all the time
47:08
and found there was always a point where something
47:12
was breaking through that you didn't plan. This
47:15
isn't your thought, this isn't your idea. And when
47:18
that happens, there's the gift. You don't try to
47:21
go back and analyze it. You take the gift. Because
47:24
like a dream, I, uh, now am going to Live into
47:27
this somehow. And I had tons of experiences like
47:30
that that I thought, how would you cultivate that
47:32
in church? And maybe that's with silence, maybe
47:36
that's with meditation in church. Maybe that's
47:38
with. Remember we brought a big meditation bowl
47:41
into our worship, but we never capitalized on,
47:46
like, we would ring it just before we started the
47:48
proclamation of the words. So we're all kind of.
47:51
But I thought you could have a three minute sit
47:54
after the sermon where nothing happens. So people
47:57
are following their imagination. I know that
47:59
that's. You know what I mean? There's those things
48:02
which we have put pushed to the edges as being way
48:05
too out there for Christians. They're not. They're
48:08
part of tradition too.
48:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. They're not, uh, it's not, um, without a lot
48:16
of common ground as you're naming. Yeah. Okay.
48:20
Well, far be it for me to, uh, tell you what the
48:25
thesis of your book is, but as I was reading your
48:29
book, I came to page 49 and I just want to read,
48:33
uh, this quotation because it, for me,
48:37
encapsulated a lot about what you were trying to
48:40
say. Um, so you're in a pastoral conversation with
48:44
someone who has had some faith experiences. I
48:50
think in a more charismatic tradition.
48:53
>> Brian E. Pearson: He was being wooed by the Mormons.
48:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: The Mormons, okay.
48:56
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yes.
48:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Uh, and so you were kind of just inviting him to
49:00
reflect on what he may or may not be experiencing
49:03
there. And you say, I think we have to ask
49:06
ourselves at any given crossroads, which way will
49:10
make our lives larger rather than smaller? God has
49:14
a big plan for us that demands all the openness we
49:17
can muster. If a particular way is going to
49:20
restrict us, to make us smaller than we are, or
49:23
asks us to be closed rather than open, we have to
49:27
ask if that's really where our soul wants to go.
49:30
Do we want to live large or live small? So to me,
49:36
that was like, kind of how I would define the
49:41
book. Um, what do you think it looks like to live
49:46
large rather than small?
49:49
>> Brian E. Pearson: Uh, by the way, I think that was, um, very astute
49:52
of you to pick that out. Because as you read it, I
49:55
go, yeah, M. Yeah, that was really the core
49:58
somewhere in there. Um, I think there's something,
50:03
uh, almost very biblical about it. Every time an
50:05
angel appears in the Bible, they say, do not fear.
50:09
Don't be afraid. There's nothing. There's nothing
50:11
to fear here. And therefore we can live large
50:15
because God is out at the edges. God is beyond the
50:18
edges. God is in the hinterlands. God is at the
50:20
Core, like, this is not a God who can be easily
50:25
circumscribed in any way. So living large is
50:29
wherever you are, being open to the presence of
50:33
God there. And then when the circumstances change,
50:37
be open to the presence of God. Oh, over here,
50:40
too. On my own podcast, I invited, uh, three
50:45
people to come and talk. My intention was all of
50:49
them have had experience with darkness in their
50:52
practice. So one was the shaman, Wade the shaman.
50:55
One was a spiritualist who communes with dead
50:58
people, and one was a Reiki master. All of them I
51:02
knew from personal conversations had had
51:05
experience with the dark side. Right. And I
51:07
thought, well, at some point we should have a
51:09
conversation about that. So I brought them all
51:10
together in my little studio and, um, asked them
51:15
probing questions. None of them were interested in
51:20
talking about the dark side. What came out was,
51:24
yeah, we know it's there, but you don't go there.
51:27
We're not doing this work we're doing for the dark
51:29
side. A person can get all messed up and lost if
51:32
that's where they want to go. So they almost. I
51:35
don't know how conscious they were of this, but
51:36
it's like they didn't know each other until they
51:38
were talking. But there's like, a pact of, yeah,
51:40
we're not going to talk about the dark side.
51:43
Because they were all given to the light, to their
51:48
practices being about healing, about restoration,
51:50
about health and wholeness. So I think there's an
51:53
attitude in that that, uh, says they weren't
51:57
afraid of the darkness. And the stories they had
52:00
told me, other than that, I knew that in each case
52:02
it was like, well, this has no power here. Because
52:06
they were so invested in the light. If we're
52:08
really people of faith, then we have nothing to
52:11
fear and we can move out to the expansive places
52:16
where otherwise the church might go. I'm not sure
52:18
you should go there. You know, what if it's going
52:22
haywire? If things are turning dark, you'll know
52:24
it. So there's something about being fearless, if
52:27
that's the. I'm just riffing on this, but, ah,
52:31
that feels right to me. That.
52:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. I mean, a word that I find I use a lot in my
52:36
sermons is courageous.
52:38
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yes.
52:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: I do think that there's a lot about being called
52:41
to courage. And if we think again about those,
52:45
like, basic human realities of suffering and
52:49
death, I think a lot of what we're doing is
52:54
equipping people to be courageous.
52:56
>> Brian E. Pearson: That is so true.
52:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: In the face of, like, what life will throw at us.
53:02
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah. And what death will throw at us. Like, to be
53:05
able to. To think of someone who's lived a
53:07
faithful life, whose faith has given them the gift
53:10
of courage in the face of death, on their
53:12
deathbed, not out of their skin with worry and
53:17
anxiety. But wow, this is going to be a really
53:21
cool journey. Wow. Um, what's the other side going
53:24
to be like? As much as I may be sad about leaving
53:27
my loved ones and all that like this, I've spent
53:31
my whole life preparing to go through this portal.
53:35
Like, wouldn't that be a. I'm getting chills
53:37
actually, just talking about that. I think you're
53:39
right.
53:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I mean, we do get to witness that. Uh,
53:43
right. Like we do get to witness people who die
53:47
beautifully and not without suffering, but who die
53:51
with curiosity and gratitude and trust and all of
53:59
those things. Like, uh, it's quite inspiring.
54:02
>> Brian E. Pearson: It variants. And as clergy, we have been
54:06
privileged, right, to be at the bedside and to see
54:10
that and go, oh man. As sad as I will be when I
54:15
breathe my last breath, because I quite love this
54:18
life and I'm loving it in retirement in this
54:22
particular phase, uh, this is a marvelous. As sad
54:25
as I'll be, I also hope I'll be excited about
54:30
what's coming next.
54:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, truly. Truly.
54:35
Um, okay. I feel like you've kind of answered this
54:40
already, but I do want to just circle back to what
54:45
your relationship is with the church now and how
54:49
you kind of see it in your spiritual life now, or
54:54
if you do.
54:55
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah, yeah. So it's no longer part of my spiritual
55:02
practice, but I, um, know without a doubt it's in
55:06
my bones.
55:07
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
55:07
>> Brian E. Pearson: Which is why I say, you know, I can imagine I've
55:10
said that to my wife. I've said, you know, if I go
55:13
before you, in spite of being out here in the
55:16
hinterlands, I want a good old Anglican funeral.
55:19
That's me. I mean, that's where, um. And um, as
55:25
much as I try not to pay attention to gossip and
55:28
what's happening in the church, in my own parish
55:31
and in the diocese since I've left, uh, I'm still
55:35
capable of being hurt by hearing of things
55:38
happening. It hurts my heart. And I think, no, no,
55:41
no, you don't have, don't close down in terms of.
55:44
Think the church as it gets smaller and it gets
55:48
fearful and it circles the wagons and it's all
55:51
about, as we said, defending the faith. No. Um, so
55:56
I know that at some spiritual level, I will always
55:59
be a part of the church. Um, um, but it's not so
56:04
much Um, I haven't found a way to make that work,
56:08
um, of, uh, being a part of a church. I would want
56:11
to go back and be a part of my own church. Right.
56:13
The people I know so well. And, you know, that's
56:15
bad form for a priest to hang out. And I don't
56:20
think always it's very welcomed by the newer
56:24
clergy who follow you.
56:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I have really, like, a different
56:30
opinion about that because I have been so lucky in
56:33
my church ministries to have my predecessors
56:38
continue to hang around and just be extremely
56:41
wonderful, um, parts of the community. So I know
56:46
that's not everybody's experience, but I. I don't
56:51
know, I. I feel like a lot of the. The boundaries
56:56
that we've put up around, like, friendships having
56:59
to come to a close.
57:01
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah. Crazy.
57:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: The minute that you like.
57:03
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah. Yeah.
57:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: It just doesn't seem to bear out with reality.
57:07
But. But again, like, I'm speaking from a
57:09
particular context of having really great
57:12
predecessors in all of my churches.
57:15
>> Brian E. Pearson: There's something very organic about that. There's
57:17
something natural. But the elders still stay with
57:20
us. They're not leading anymore, except by a
57:24
certain example.
57:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, like, it's been so good for me. I've loved it,
57:29
but, you know, I know it can be toxic too.
57:33
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah.
57:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, oh, and the other thing I just wanted to note,
57:39
um, is I do feel like you've taken the church with
57:46
you to where you are now too. You know, like that
57:50
maybe you're not attending a church, but it just
57:55
like everything that we've talked about today,
57:57
everything that's in your book, like it is still
58:01
with you in a big way.
58:03
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah. Thank you. I think so too. Yeah.
58:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, um, what do you hope that a reader, and
58:11
especially those serving in Christian ministry
58:13
now, what do you hope they might take away from
58:16
your book Talking to Trees?
58:19
>> Brian E. Pearson: I think, um, one. I hope that it would be read as
58:22
an invitation and going back to, uh, what you read
58:26
from the book. An invitation to live your faith
58:29
large. Um, and an invitation by way of the
58:34
storytelling that I, ah, really do think that, um,
58:38
the power of storytelling is I may be telling you
58:41
a story, and halfway through the telling of my
58:44
story, you're already going. Yeah, like that
58:47
happened to me once. Like it evokes a story that
58:52
we are landing on something that feels true, that
58:56
there's, uh. It's profound and it's not like we
58:59
both believe the same thing. We both have the same
59:02
experience. So the invitation is by way of hearing
59:07
the stories, not for their own sake, as if my Life
59:10
is any more interesting than anyone else's, but
59:13
hearing the stories, for the stories that get
59:16
evoked within the reader. And I mean, I was saying
59:20
to someone, thinking, uh, of having this
59:22
conversation, I said, you know, I think the whole
59:25
purpose of writing the book, I'm realizing, wasn't
59:28
about the book. It was about the conversations
59:31
that can come out of the book, the storytelling
59:34
that can happen. Uh, and I will be part of some of
59:37
those conversations. Most of them I won't be. I
59:41
would love that if someone could read the book and
59:43
feel invited to go, yeah, there's something here
59:46
that I had a similar experience. And down they're
59:48
going that road, acknowledging and even
59:51
celebrating their own spiritual journey in all its
59:54
uniqueness. It may or may not fit into the church,
59:57
but. Yeah.
59:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, I think that that is going to happen
1:00:02
for people reading the book because, um, there's a
1:00:06
lot that's relatable, but there's also a lot that
1:00:10
is, you know, your unique, um, person of Brian
1:00:15
Pearson, and, uh, your particular viewpoint and
1:00:19
way of seeing the world. And I think that
1:00:22
particularity invites other people to be more
1:00:26
particular themselves, too. So it's like the
1:00:30
universal and the specific.
1:00:32
>> Brian E. Pearson: I love it. And that's a whole conversation of its
1:00:34
own. But you know what? Uh, Joseph Campbell, who
1:00:37
used to write about, uh, follow, uh your bliss, he
1:00:41
was the mythologist who was trying to summarize
1:00:46
the world myths. He says, really, it's all about
1:00:48
following your bliss. Before he came up with that,
1:00:51
um, he told, uh, his friend Thomas Moore, he said
1:00:54
he was talking about follow your weird W, Y R D.
1:00:59
It's an old English word that means fate. Follow
1:01:01
your fate. But I love it even better. Like, he
1:01:04
should have said, follow your weird, because if
1:01:07
each of us is going on our own path, we're going
1:01:09
to be weird. We're going to be like John the
1:01:11
Baptist, a little eccentric. That's the way we're
1:01:14
meant to be.
1:01:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, there's a great Rachel, uh, Held Evans quote
1:01:19
where she says, like, I don't want the church to
1:01:22
be more hip. I want the church to be more weird.
1:01:25
>> Brian E. Pearson: Like, you see? That's it. That's exactly right.
1:01:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like, yeah, just lean in. Lean into the weird.
1:01:33
Okay, well, let's take a quick break, and then
1:01:35
we'll come back with some closing questions.
1:01:41
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast, and
1:01:44
I continue to be here with Brian Pearson. And, uh,
1:01:49
we are going to wrap up with our usual closing
1:01:52
questions. Now, Brian, we always tell our guests
1:01:55
that, uh, you can take these questions seriously
1:01:59
or not, um, it's up to you the degree of
1:02:03
seriousness that you apply to your answers, but
1:02:07
here they are.
1:02:07
>> Brian E. Pearson: Okay.
1:02:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, Brian, if you were Pope for a day, what
1:02:13
would fill out those 24 hours?
1:02:16
>> Brian E. Pearson: I'd set the captives free.
1:02:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Do you want to elaborate there on the whole
1:02:23
church?
1:02:23
>> Brian E. Pearson: I'd say, folks, do what you want. Um, have a good
1:02:27
time, go out there and explore, and, um, see you
1:02:30
tomorrow. And tomorrow, you know, we'll get back
1:02:32
to usual. But today, do what you want to do. Set
1:02:37
the Christian captives free for a day.
1:02:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right. That is a very on brand answer, Brian.
1:02:46
Okay. What theological or historical, Christian or
1:02:50
otherwise figure would you want to meet or bring
1:02:53
back to life?
1:02:55
>> Brian E. Pearson: Well, ever since reading in, uh, John Philip
1:02:59
Newell's book, uh, Sacred Earth, Sacred Soul,
1:03:02
about Pelagius, I'm going now. Pelagius, who was
1:03:06
given a terrible, terrible ride by the
1:03:09
Mediterranean church in the 4th and 5th centuries.
1:03:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, like he has a heresy named after him,
1:03:13
doesn't he?
1:03:13
>> Brian E. Pearson: Exactly. And we think we know nothing about him,
1:03:17
but John Philip Newell dug into it and what a cool
1:03:22
dude. He was a Welsh monk who had a bad haircut.
1:03:27
Um, and when he went to Rome to not confront, but
1:03:32
to be with the Mediterranean Church, they saw this
1:03:35
hick. He had what was essentially a Druid haircut,
1:03:40
and it was sort of in style. About 10 years ago,
1:03:42
young guys would have the sides and backs of their
1:03:44
hair cut right down to their scalp, and then it
1:03:48
belong on top. It wasn't the monkish, uh, um,
1:03:52
tonsure of the Mediterranean Church, but he was
1:03:56
earth based in his theology. He was blessing based
1:04:00
in his understanding of creation. It's not about
1:04:04
sin. It's about, we were put on Earth as a
1:04:07
blessing. And the whole Christian message is to
1:04:09
draw us back to be that blessing. Nothing wrong
1:04:13
with that. He consorted. Can you believe this? He
1:04:16
consorted with women in his company. He allowed
1:04:19
them to read sacred texts. I know Jerome. That's
1:04:26
what Jerome, um, focused on, uh, to dis. Pelagius
1:04:30
is. And he hangs with women and lets them read the
1:04:33
texts. So I think Pelagius needs a second chance.
1:04:38
I think I would love to go back and meet him and
1:04:39
go and sit at his feet and go, you know, dude,
1:04:42
they don't get you.
1:04:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, you're winning me over to
1:04:45
Pelagius. And also, I like when our guests have an
1:04:49
answer that we haven't heard before. So you're
1:04:51
winning on two friends there.
1:04:54
What do you think history will remember from our
1:04:57
current time and place?
1:04:59
>> Brian E. Pearson: Ooh. Um, I think this is the end of civilization
1:05:04
as we know it. I m. Really do. I think this is
1:05:08
Margaret, um, Wheatley, uh, writes about this, uh,
1:05:12
and has spoken about it. Um, this isn't a pendulum
1:05:16
swing. This is the end of Western civilization as
1:05:19
we know it. So buck up, folks. She's saying, um,
1:05:23
it's time to show up, uh, for who you are and to
1:05:26
offer your gifts to the world. Now's the time.
1:05:28
Because we're not going back to any of the
1:05:31
stability we've not. I mean that's a very dark
1:05:35
response. But ever since I read her saying that,
1:05:38
heard her saying it actually, um, I'm going.
1:05:40
You're right, you're right. Okay. We're going to
1:05:43
remember this as the death of civilizations. We
1:05:45
knew it. Great potential for something new to be
1:05:49
born. But the old is done. Yeah.
1:05:51
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, and that. Do not be afraid, message more
1:05:54
relevant than ever. Right?
1:05:56
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yeah. Yeah.
1:05:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. So what are your hopes for the future of
1:06:01
Christianity at the end of civilization?
1:06:04
>> Brian E. Pearson: I still think the gathering of people around the
1:06:07
Christian, what I call the mythic story, the
1:06:09
Christian mythic story is a beautiful, life and
1:06:13
world transforming thing. Like when Christians can
1:06:18
continue to gather, I have to say, with or without
1:06:21
the consent of bishops, with or without correct
1:06:24
theology, uh, like all of the things that we do to
1:06:28
so limit ourselves. The gathering of people around
1:06:32
this mythic story that is focused on Jesus has
1:06:35
some specific rituals that engage us, I think is a
1:06:39
beautiful thing. And I would hope that that
1:06:42
survives even when the institutional church
1:06:44
doesn't. Even when people have to sell off their
1:06:46
beautiful old buildings thinking this is the end.
1:06:49
This isn't the end. Are you kidding? You get a
1:06:52
chance to be the church in a way you never could
1:06:54
before. Meeting in a high school gymnasium on a
1:06:57
Sunday morning. Anyway. Yeah, something like that.
1:07:00
Yeah.
1:07:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: So lots of hopes for, ah, the future of the
1:07:03
church.
1:07:04
Okay. And uh, this last question is really
1:07:07
important because you have a lot that you're doing
1:07:10
and exploring and writing and talking about. So
1:07:12
where can people find out more about you, Brian?
1:07:16
>> Brian E. Pearson: So my website is my name with my middle initial,
1:07:20
which is Brian E. Pearson. And on there you can
1:07:23
find about my podcast, which is called the Mystic
1:07:26
Cave, which is actually talking about all the
1:07:28
stuff we've been talking about. It's gonna change
1:07:30
its focus in this season coming up. Do you know
1:07:33
who's gonna be my first guest? I don't know if
1:07:36
you'll know who this is. Some of your people won't
1:07:38
know. Uh, Jane Sibery from the 80s and 90s, who
1:07:42
was the most Unique person. She.
1:07:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Life is a red wagon.
1:07:46
>> Brian E. Pearson: Yes.
1:07:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh.
1:07:48
>> Brian E. Pearson: I'm focusing on, um, kind of the soulful questions
1:07:52
of what does it mean to be human in the modern
1:07:54
age? And trying to do it without theological
1:07:56
jargon. Anyway, so my podcast is listed on there,
1:08:00
my blog. People can sign up for my blog. And of
1:08:02
course, I have a page, uh, dedicated to the book
1:08:06
which people can. You know, people can buy it on
1:08:10
Amazon and all those places, but I'm sure not a
1:08:12
fan of Amazon. Not just because I only get, like a
1:08:14
$20 for a book sold on Amazon, but if people want
1:08:19
to buy a book, they can do that through my
1:08:20
website, and I'll send it to them signed or with
1:08:24
a, uh, you know, dedication, whatever they want,
1:08:27
and do that before September 30th. Somebody said
1:08:31
the E in your middle name does that stand for
1:08:33
entrepreneur? Because somebody said you should
1:08:36
have a draw. You should have a contest to help
1:08:38
sell your book. I think it's a very stupid idea,
1:08:41
but I do. I'm doing a draw. So if you buy a book
1:08:44
from me before September 30th, well, if you live
1:08:48
in Southern Alberta, I'll come to your home and do
1:08:50
a house concert, or I'll meet with your book club
1:08:53
and we'll talk about the themes of the book, or we
1:08:55
will have an extended conversation about your own
1:08:58
spiritual journey. Those are the first, second,
1:09:00
and third prizes, but only till September 30, and
1:09:04
then the deal's off the table.
1:09:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Brian Entrepreneur Pearson, it is CA and the book
1:09:13
is Talking to A Journey into Seoul. I highly
1:09:16
recommend it. Thank you so much for our
1:09:18
conversation today, Brian. And, uh, thank you for
1:09:22
all of the wisdom and humor and honesty that.
1:09:27
That, uh, you bring to your reflections.
1:09:30
>> Brian E. Pearson: Thank you, Martha. And I love the show. I love
1:09:32
that you're pushing out at the boundaries, man. If
1:09:35
nobody's doing that, the church is dead for sure.
1:09:37
Anyway, thank you.
1:09:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, if you're not busy being born, you're busy
1:09:41
dying.
1:09:42
>> Brian E. Pearson: Amen.
1:09:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Bob Dylan. Okay, well, we always, uh, end not with
1:09:47
Bob Dylan, but with a word of peace. So, um,
1:09:50
Brian, may God's peace be with you.
1:09:53
>> Brian E. Pearson: M. Thank you. And also with you.
1:10:02
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
1:10:04
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
1:10:07
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
1:10:10
listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for
1:10:12
future episodes. Visit our
1:10:14
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1:10:18
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1:10:21
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1:10:24
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1:10:27
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1:10:30
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