Latest / Author Hour / Invest Like the Best: Chris Belchamber on The Low-Risk Road to High Returns
Transcript
- speaker-0: I am happy to be with the author of Invest Light the Best. Chris, it is really good to see you and have you back on the Author Hour podcast, I think about five years after your first appearance. So nice to see you, Chris. speaker-1: That's right. Well thank you, ⁓ Travis. Very generous of you to invite me. speaker-0: So it's been five plus years now, and I know that one of the really the the beliefs that you have about the industry that you're in financial advising is that financial industry was not set up for the end client in mind. And I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on that. speaker-1: ⁓ boy. Yeah, that's that's a very good question. I could spend a long time just addressing that issue. Well, yeah, I mean ⁓ there there's you know, I guess at one level there's the fiat currency system that we're in rather than gold, and that's been a ⁓ a long story for about five thousand years. So I won't get into that in particular. I think what exercises mean particular is that having been in this business for forty two years as ⁓ finance investment professional, I think that the standard of service the average investor gets from the industry is simply appalling. And so I my passion is to do something about that. I guess my specialty is investment and I think that what people get as investment advice is is unacceptable. And you know, there is a solution which is so much better and provably so. But I I think that as I've been in the industry for so long, I've I basically branched out into financial planning and then taxes and you know, there are issues everywhere, they're different issues, but in general there's a lot of mystery and misleading guidance, which is a long way from best practice. So, you know, I've just started a a sub stack which is best interest wealth management to try and address that. I've become a comprehensive best practice wealth manager to try and address that too. But I guess the source of this where, you know, my my ⁓ where I have the strongest view is is on investing. And I guess we could go into that a little bit more or you know if yeah speaker-0: I'd love that. I know, you know, my understanding is one of your concerns with the industry is that people are told that they have to choose if you want high returns, you must choose high risk and that you find those to be false choices. Is that correct? speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, it's simply absurd and provably wrong. I i it's i i it's ⁓ you know, I have a I have a chance. ⁓ I even have a a little chart here which shows it. If you take the S P five hundred and you pick a bull market, not difficult now, ⁓ if you go from nineteen ninety five to the end of twenty twenty one, that's twenty-seven years of the bull market in in equities. And if you take the the most volatile quintile and and rebalance it for twenty seven years and you compare it against the S P five hundred and the lowest volatility stocks in the S P five hundred and rebalance it for twenty seven years and you look at the chart, the low vol lowest volatility stocks outperform the high volatile stocks by double. speaker-0: Wow. speaker-1: Yeah. So I'll speaker-0: the industry gotten that so wrong? speaker-1: Well, you know, I I think that, you know, it's it's an evolution and I guess the excitement is always about let's make money right now. And if you're in a bull market, then the high volatility stocks in general will perform better today, this week, this year maybe. But what an investment advisor is supposed to be doing is compounding real purchasing power for the long term. Because I think the objective is that you will have wealth when you need it in retirement, when you you don't have earned income. And so you should have a long term perspective. And what people don't understand, and I've had arguments with people who claim to be the number one financial advisor in America for three consecutive years, that they don't understand compounding. Everybody thinks they understand compounding, but on examination they don't, and provably so. And, you know, whenever I come across it, I take people on. I just say, No, y you're using this incorrectly and you're coming to a bad conclusion. And you're advising, you got, you know, 80,000 followers, they need to know that what you just posted is nonsense. Approvably so. So but the the the real amazing thing about it is that once you cross that bridge and you realise what count compounding is, how you do it, it's very, very precise as a term. You it gives you four metrics, which you can get any day. So you and you don't you're you're as an investor you can look at it any day. So you have constant and transparency and accountability about whether you are compounding and what rates you're compounding. And the result is you get a higher long term return with significantly lower risk. Now, whenever I do a seminar and I say, is anybody here? Who would like to have a higher return with less risk? Everybody puts their hand up. Everybody. But when it comes to doing it, they just really would what? It's it's it's not that complicated. Okay, it's you know. speaker-0: Is it that it's not like sexy and not you're there's not this immediacy that it's it's you're putting things into less risk and you're looking at a longer time horizon. Is that one of the things that makes it a powerful illusion to to go the other direction, do you think? speaker-1: It's behavior. Part one of my book is behavior. And as ⁓ Benjamin Graham, who was Warren Buffett's mentor and teacher, says, and it's a quote in the beginning of the first chapter, is that the investor's worst enemy is almost certainly going to be himself. So what happens to most people is they say, I'm investing. What do I want? I want a return. And so people start chasing returns and and thinking a high return is the greatest thing in the short term. And what they can't distinguish b between is what is luck and you know where the skill is and and you know what's gonna happen over time. But It's it's everybody gets affected by that. I don't think our behavior and our brain system is naturally developed to be an investor making consistent decisions all the time. And so it it's it's part of all of us and all the best investors who I study, they have to realize, okay, I'm my own worst enemy. I need a checklist, I need a framework, a mindset. to to deal with myself because I'm gonna have to manage myself. speaker-0: I was wondering, is that has to be a really hard thing as as an advisor too, because I imagine, like you using that Ben Graham quote, I imagine that in times when the market is very volatile and they're the customer, the client is looking at their portfolio going down, you're the first person that they call and you know that what they're requesting that you do, you know, selling at that moment is the worst possible thing that they could do. But also you're in a client management relationship where you where you need to, you know, do what your client is asking for. But it there's I get I would imagine there was a bit of a conflict though, because your ultimate goal is for their retirement, but their immediate goal conflicts with their long term goal. Is is that one of the burdens of being the financial manager? speaker-1: definitely. ⁓ yes. And i i it's a constant issue because people always want, ⁓ the market's going off, I must be rich. Because that's how everybody else reacts. That's how everybody else is invested by Wall Street. And so they feel, Ugh, what what's what's wrong here? And so yeah, that it it is a problem and it needs a huge amount of constant education and reinforcement. Every quarterly return, I say, this is what we're doing. And then, you know, fortunately, ⁓ you know, I can show that over time, you know, the drawdown is is so limited. ⁓ that, you know, I'm I'm I start at a higher level when the bounce comes and I get my share of the bounce. And over time, that hugely improves your compounding. And so you can you can demonstrate, you know, over time that, you know, any kind of benchmark can can work. So, you know, you have to you have to be able to see both sides. So just let again in the in the first part of the book, you show the I show the example of ⁓ long term capital management John Merriwether, which was the biggest hedge fund. speaker-0: My next question was gonna be, are you a Merriweather or are you a Drucken Miller? speaker-1: ⁓ God and now no question. I I I was interviewed for partnership of long term capital management in the nineties. ⁓ wow. And had a one on one with John Merriweather. 'Cause I was managing director proprietor trading JP Morgan at the time and they were looking for someone to to join their team and it was nineteen ninety seven. It was like four years of hundred percent returns. And suddenly found myself in a room one on one with John Merriwether. So it's It's fascinating discussion, but it we ⁓ towards the end of the meeting we just fell out because we just talked about risk and say we just don't see things quite the same way. I didn't know their exact positions, but they were 30 times leverage. So they had like four billion in capital and 125 billion in positions. And so no surprise within a year. But you know, in nineteen ninety seven he was Master of the Universe. You just have to say, Well, we've got six Nobel Prize winning scientists, we've made a hundred percent the last four years and people say, How much money can I give you? That's you know, that's that's the problem. People see the return, ⁓ my god, I want that. speaker-0: Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's swimming naked. speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. And you know, whereas in chapter three I show the a compounding method, which is probably middle school math, where you just do, you know, a simple trend system, it's all explained in the book. You compare it to stocks, bonds and gold. You do it for forty years. And if you spend five minutes every month to do a little simple rebounds, which one's going up by that one? And that one in equal share, that one other one gets junk because it's not in an uptrend. That's that's simple. And that beats stocks, bonds, and gold with less volatility over forty years. That's so you have the seventies, you had the eighties, you know. So you've been through all kinds of conditions. And what the why we get to in sort of part two is because by you are eliminating drawdowns. You were minimizing drawdowns. The number one factor in compounding is minimal drawdown. And some of the best investment researchers now, I don't know whether you've heard of Hedgeye, but they they've just gone into asset management. I mean, the Hedgeye are just astonishingly good with their research. They advise about 10 trillion in assets now. And they're now going into asset management. And each of their ETFs that they come out with has a drawdown objective. They understand that, you know, superior investing is, you know, minimizing risk and maximizing compounding. And you know, without you know, without that clear objective about what is it that makes you a best investor. Y how do you allocate? How do you measure? How do you if you're not doing all those things, you can't allocate and risk manage appropriately. So if you haven't got what compounding actually means you do, then you're just never gonna be a best investor. You're never going to you don't won't have the security and you won't have the relentless outperformance that you get from compounding. I mean compounding is actually The only metric which is the equivalent of your account value. So 20 years from now, what's your your the value of your account? It's defined by the com what you've compounded at. So an investment manager's job is to optimally manage the compounding rate, because it's the exact equivalent of what you're supposed to be doing. And if you don't have if you're not managing drawdown, if you're not you know, having consistency and safety. How do you plan? How how can you y you're in this passive investing, you know, I'm I'm wealthy today, but oops, markets down fifty percent, gonna have to have a different retirement. I mean, these it it's the risk to other people's money is horrendous in my view. It's irresponsible. speaker-0: Back in the last author hour interview, you had some you you were a little critical or worried about the passive investing and the ETF boom. What what is now five years in the future? What what are you seeing now? speaker-1: Exactly the same. See the the what people today it ju is just the leverage, the positions, the confidence, the complete belief is is like we've never seen. I mean it it's quite extraordinary. But you know, when I mentioned to people that well actually stock market peaked in two thousand relative to gold. So what's the big deal about stocks? I mean, how do you know what your return's gonna be? The best trend has been in gold. And it's a low risk and you haven't had, you know, fifty percent drawdowns and you didn't have to do much. So, you know, I think people are very confused. You know, it's it's if you want to you you're purchasing power in retirements, you've got to be launching what's the best asset. Stocks, everybody thinks, ⁓ you've got to be in stocks, right? End of story. No. The S P five hundred is seventy percent down relative to gold. So how do you feel now? And ⁓ people don't even know that. Why isn't Wall Street telecom that? Wall Street doesn't want you to buy gold. speaker-0: Why is that? speaker-1: You don't they don't get fees, you know. You can do it on yourself and you you don't invest it with them and and you know, if you if you put your money in insurance investing, try and buy a commodity or have any commodities or gold in in your investment an annuity. I mean I've it's just I have never found it. But I always ask that question and they say, ⁓ well maybe no. No. So You know, it's it it's it's scandalous that the average allocation to gold even now is something like one, two percent. If you look add up all the ETFs, how much money's in there. So, I mean, people are ridiculously underinvested in commoditi I mean, commodities have had a very rough time. So you can understand why they've been banded in general, but not gold. I mean gold is ⁓ absolute cornerstone. If you if you understand what money and credit are, you you have to have you you should if you don't know what gold is, well Greg Aliot said it. He said if you don't own gold, you don't know the ⁓ history or economics of it. And which is f five thousand years older. And and so, you know, there's there are huge gaps in in understanding and practice that ⁓ I think are a a scandal. And I you know I'm I'm I'm terrified that, you know, I look at four ⁓ one game portfolios from time to time. It's just you know, you're losing money for four years and nobody's doing anything and thinking about it. I mean the the beneficiary doesn't really have a clue. It's just this it's not it's not acceptable way to treat people, I don't think. speaker-0: There's lots of talk about Bitcoin being the digital gold. What what are your thoughts on that? speaker-1: Well again I go back to well the the the the rules of money were were established in Rome before Christ and they haven't changed. And at the end of the day it's final settlement with nobody else involved. The credit basically involves a chain of people, institutions, whatever. speaker-0: I'm s I'm sorry, Chris. What are the rules? speaker-1: in a in a chaotic situation, all the chains and trust and promises and guarantees and contracts disappear. Ultimately the only thing you can be left with that is durable, that is valuable, according to ancient civilizations, but they haven't changed. If I I was recently in Turkey, I mean everybody go to the Grand Bazaar, it's gold everywhere is flashing the gold price. India weddings. I mean i it they know And basically there are certain conditions for what is really money and what is credit and what is currency. And Bitcoin just doesn't stack up because it's it's dependent on so many things. You know, is there electricity? I can't trade my Bitcoin. Or, you know, is there is the jurisdiction you're in does it have rules on Bitcoin? I mean, ⁓ all kinds of issues with that. I mean, I'm not saying that Bitcoin doesn't have ⁓ potentially ⁓ a place in the financial system. I I think ideologically I think it's got many positive things, but it's certainly not money and the volatility basically makes it impossible to regard as as money. Yeah, so that's that's more or less what I think about Bitcoin. speaker-0: Amazing. So back in 2021, you released your book. Can we flash back there? And what was your intention with the book originally? I know you had 40 plus years in the financial industry and you wanted to educate more people. I remember even back then that was one of your life's works was educating people on financial markets. What was your goal back then for the book? speaker-1: Well, I you know, I guess I you know, I came into I was in in England and I came to America for various reasons. I I went into being an investment advisor from proprietary trader JP Morgan, and I couldn't believe the investment advice that people had. So I thought, ⁓ this is good, I can do something different. But it's so different that people find it very difficult to understand. even if it is beneficial. And so I realized that instead of talking about it, it would probably make my life easier if I just wrote it all down. And then people would say, Well look, ⁓ chapter one, chapter five, you know, whatever. It's all it's all there. It's timeless. It's you know, if you don't get this, y you know, you're to some degree you're gambling. And it it helps in many ways. I it was It was very cathartic for me, but also it just so reinforced my beliefs that I came out of that saying, Look, I'm just gonna produce, you know, models or funds or whatever which have higher returns with lower risk. And, you know, five years later it's you know, it's it's going as it should, but it's you know, it's a real struggle getting getting people to understand the benefit. I think with the passage of time it gets, you know, and I can show So a longer period of time, I it gets a little easier, but it is very difficult that part one. We just did a video with my son of of part one, we're trying to make it higher level, simpler to to get the idea across because it's just so powerful. You know, I think everybody needs to have better safety and higher long term returns. I ⁓ you know so anyway, that's my that's become my my mission, as well as, you know, increasing the better practice and across finance. So Yeah. And so I'm I've got a mission mission. I can't do anything else. That's that's for sure. So this this is this is what I do. speaker-0: And now you're producing content, you've got a newsletter, you've got videos that you're creating with your son, you've got a a content engine going again. What is what is your purpose behind all that? speaker-1: I just wanna spread the word. I mean, you know, it's it's it's good to ha I mean it's good to have the right clients that 'cause, you know, not everybody is is appropriate for this, I think, as I've as I've discovered. But if if a person isn't going to be my client, I think I can still help them in a in a certain way because, you know, this is so big. This is about other people's lives. And, you know, I've I've got something here which I think is important. So I'm just going to keep at it. And and find a way to to communicate better. And I think my son's son's ⁓ helped a lot in that regard. speaker-0: So this, if I'm understanding correctly, you were coming at the financial industry from a very different perspective. You had very concrete thoughts that you felt you could defend in a book. You created a book, and now this is allowing you to kind to basically find the clients that are perfect for you because they understand your methodology and they're It it's a right mesh. So it's acting the book is acting as a lighthouse to attract those clients that you were looking to attract. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. It's it's it's ⁓ it's the core of the whole story. I guess there are there are always new parts and elements and developments and nothing stands still. But it is a core, it's a real prerequisite, I think. And if people want more wealth and security, I mean I I don't I don't think there's a a better way. So I feel the you know the mission is good, it's positive contribution, and my son's gone it. And a few people the few people get it, but yeah, it it is ⁓ different way of thinking. So it's you know, it's very behavioural and and we're not designed to be good investors. So it is a natural challenge being good at investing. You know, I have to I have to control myself every day. So, you know, but I've got you know, no, don't do that, I've got a checklist, you know, because you know, ⁓ we all have emotions and we're not supposed to be emotional when we're investing at work. supposed be clinical, objective and what's the process here and and that. But you know, none of us are perfect either. So, you know Yeah, it's definitely my North Star. speaker-0: That's that's great. And man, it to have a book on finance that's that timeless where five years later you can still draw on it, you can still use it, you're still creating new videos, you're still educating people off of that original work speaks to how great of a book he wrote. speaker-1: Yeah, th there are some things about finance which are very durable and very deep. Now the techniques and the way the market trades and the the behavi you know, it that's evolves every day. I mean, it's there are new approaches and new ideas and new developments and but more science and and what have you. And you have to you have to keep up with that because it's a different animal than it used to be and it's not gonna stop changing. So there are things but if they're not grounded in these elements, then you're you're at risk. You're you're at risk in ways you you you may not understand. So you you need to have like the foundation and then you know, apply it to the whole the whole chain so you've got the whole story right and secure and you know you know if you don't have that investment objective really clear in your mind, you're not making consistent and good decisions. And You know, the foundations are really important for whatever else you do. speaker-0: What I I would love to, since I have a world-renowned expert, I'm gonna, if you'll humor me, I want you to point out the error in my thinking. The way I've looked at my investing, I I was a big fan of Jack Bogle from Vanguard, and I loved when he talked about I'm probably butchering the quote, but he said what is he was talking about compounding fees of investment advisors. And I think he said. The the magic of compound interest gets overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding fees. And that the American people don't know that is a shame for them, or something to that effect. So I've always I I've basically put most of my money in Vo, the S P five hundred ETF, and my other bet is on things that I believed I had an information advantage in. Not that I'm on an insider in these, but For instance, ⁓ I've had Tesla vehicles for 10 years. I've loved them. ⁓ and because I love them and because I knew that my experience with them, the public really didn't understand. They didn't understand how great the technology was. I put ⁓ you know, probably 10, 20% of my money into those things. But I'm now I'm talking and I've done nothing in gold. And I'm starting to think that I have a huge blind spot here. So what am I getting wrong here? And please be brutally honest. speaker-1: Well, I I'm not necessarily saying wrong. I mean if if but I think it's suboptimal that is is is the issue in terms of low risk and high return. Now we we've had the most extraordinary bull market in history and we're still and we're still in it. But I think people need to understand that first of all, go ⁓ the stock market peaked against gold in two thousand. So, you know, it's this is a fiat money environment where manipulation and debt and liquidity and all kinds manner of things are engaged in the value of financial assets and the the interests of politicians in Wall Street and ⁓ you know, a bull market is good for all of us. May not be good for people who don't own assets. So the the vested interests are simply extraordinary. However, you know, one has to appreciate that because something has worked really well, I would say it's worked pretty well since two thousand and nine, just just being long equities in dollar terms. And one has to understand the mechanism about how you got there. And you know, increasingly what is happening and and it's it's gone crazy this year is this is not because we're seeing naturally derived profits emerging out of these companies. What we're seeing is spectacular deficit spending from the government and the corporate sector, which looks like profits. 'Cause that spending becomes profits somewhere. But the leverage is frightening. I just saw that the banks lending to margin brokerage accounts has gone vertical. We've got circular financing by NVIDIA supported by Wall Street today, five hundred billion. So I mean it it This is what happened in 2000 where you started seeing basically sellers of the mechanics of technology lending money to their their their buyers, their customers, ⁓ and hoping that the customers would would besold them. So, you know, there are so many remarkable things going on. Now if you look at the Buffett indicators, for example, you just take Yeah, GDP, which is inflated by astonishing spending already, but the stock market has has gone to I think it's well over twice the size of the entire capitalization of the stock market. If if you were to return to the highs of the seventies, in other words, you would get a relationship but the highs of the nineteen seventies and between the stock market and GDP. Stock market's got to go down sixty five percent. So if you and JP Morgan brought out this thing and given this valuation, ⁓ what's the ten year expected return on the stock market? And you know, it it's the R squared on that relationship on the data they had for fifty or a hundred years was like ninety nine percent, the expected return on the stock market for the next ten years in nominal terms is zero. So you you you're you're getting to you know extraordinary situation where, you know, the leverage, the industrial production in America hasn't moved since the last twenty years. It's a flat one. So the financialization, the debt, you know, we've been doubling debt every ten years. So it's now what, forty trillion, so ten years from now, you've it's gonna be eighty trillion and Also we've got to pay for social security because the funds run out and Medicare and so how's the math work on the next ten years? So, you know, y you can be passive if you want. I its valuation's the most extraordinary. And I'm you know, it's not I own some equities. I own equity. I have a you know, a good allocation because the short term indicators are still there. I mean the the deficit just for Dul July was four hundred and sixty billion. for month. I mean, and money supplies going up, liquidity, they don't want to raise interest rates, they're producing liquidities by yen. I mean, it's it's like you know, if if if you if you put a fire hose on, it's you're gonna get some water. I mean, so yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not standing in the way of a fire hose. But that's you know, th you've gotta think gotta realize the extraordinary nature of where we are. And the danger too. And you know, you can you can spend, you know, ten cents on some puts just, you know, so you've got something that you you know, you know, understand where your drawdown is and you're not gonna notice it. So you know, I think I think that's that's the problem and certainly the passive thing, you know, you could have you could have bought the S P five hundred in nineteen sixty five. And your real return for the next thirty years going to nineteen ninety five was zero. And you had a seventy five percent drawdown during that period. So that's what passive investing can do for you too. speaker-0: Wow. And that's because it's being comp you're comparing to gold then speaker-1: No, that's that's that's that's in dollars, in the in just in dollars. Wow. So your real return in the S P five hundred can be zero for thirty years. Has been nineteen sixty five two so you know, so this amount of leverage, this amount of week I mean the ex the debt. I wrote this blog just a month ago. We're already in recession. I mean a and not just the US, all G seven. So it's the debt creating the spending which shifts and in fact they're managing that way. That's the reason we haven't had a recession for so long, is because whenever they see the growth going down they say, Hum, spend, you know. ⁓ Because if they spend it goes directly into G D P number, right? And so you don't get recessions anymore. Doesn't mean the economy's strong, it means you're spending extraordinary amounts. So this is this is the game that you're in. And this is this is actually how fiat currencies die. So but you know like I I I was born in Africa and my sister was born in Zimbabwe. And there was a time when I looked at the Zimbabwe Stock Exchange and I thought, Holy smoke, it went up two thousand percent. I thought, why, you know, why didn't anybody tell me? And then I noticed, ⁓ the currency went down five thousand percent. ⁓ right. So ⁓ so you know, that's what happens when fiat currencies collapse. What do you think's starting to happen here? How many how many theatre currencies have ever survived? None. None. None. So, you know, why isn't you know, why all of them? I mean Japan is probably the basket case, right? ⁓ speaker-0: What about the you know, there's the belief that it well, the United States is different because we have control of our money supply and we are able to print more and we don't have to go to another authority and then ultimately we have the powerful military behind us. Is that what is that argument just silly? speaker-1: That's become silly. Yeah, because the reason for that is even the central banks, the people who manage the world's fear currency, they are selling US treasuries and they're buying gold. And they've been doing that for five years. Wow. So what does that tell you? So the h holders of treasuries are now sellers. So the the foreign holdings of treasuries have gone down. But the the treasuries are going down. And, you know, Descent is obviously ⁓ highly reactive to someone selling treasuries. I mean Japan said, you know, we're we're selling our treasuries, thank you. He reacted very strongly as we and unfortunately they just they just ⁓ they're plain kink and mute because it's it's If you look at Japan, it's it's they've they've intervened twice before recently and it lasts for about, you know, a week, a month, two months, and then it's just back to where it was, you know. Unless unless they raise interest rates in Japan, 'cause it's not gonna stop the the current the yen going down and and the need for the Japanese to get their their dollars back. So yeah, I mean China is is and Russia are ready for a gold standard. They have it all prepared. We just this week I heard that Africa is changing its currency to enable their own gold standard in Africa, which is going to be linked to China. So the money is already moving. There's no no question about it. speaker-0: Does US have any hope for readopting the gold standard? speaker-1: Well, it's not in it's not in the power that be's interest to do so. I mean the the the powers that be in America are having a party. And, you know, Trump is well, according to the Iranians, Trump has made five billion dollars in his personal account the in the first two years. So the I think every action that is being taken so far, the idea that anyone's gonna do something about the deficit, there just isn't. a constituency in the power structure that is indicating sobriety of any kind. And at this point, the international investors, and I don't think the press covers this particularly well in the US, the international they've very clearly already made up their mind. I mean the sanctions, tariffs, confiscation, it's not attractive. speaker-0: Wow. Well, I could talk to you for a long time. My last couple questions here, one of them that I just love is we hear all of these unexpected great things that happened as the result of a book that you just could have never predicted. Do you have any stories that come to mind of the unexpected great things that happen as a result of your book? speaker-1: You know, clarity and purpose, you know, it's it's i it ⁓ the great thing about buying ⁓ writing in general and especially a book, is the depth and commitment that the words that you write, you know, you slaver that thing, in my case, eighteen months. And it it does it just gives you a real sense of something very strong. You find you dig deep. And you stay there and you have to commit it to, you know, print or black and white and live by it. And so i i it focuses the mind in a in a incredible way. So I I would say that's that's what I got most out of it. I didn't try and market it particularly and but probably gotta start marketing it now actually, more than more than I did at the launch. I was too exhausted after reading the book. speaker-0: Yeah, well I I think also this book will be timeless and you know I could see you being one of the people interviewed on the next the big short movie as hey this this Chris was predicting this exact set of circumstances long ago and wrote about it in this book. speaker-1: Yep, it's it's it's timeless, it's cyc cyclical. Whatever happens has already happened before. So yeah. speaker-0: And my last question is anybody that is considering writing a book or is maybe, you know, 10 or 20 years, you know, looking back on you before you wrote a book, what would you tell that person that's considering writing a book on why they should? speaker-1: Why they should. You know, it's an interesting question. I think they should because if they they feel they have to. There's just something in them that they they just really need to to commit to and they're fascinated by it. It's it's something that may be misunderstood, it's something that you can only communicate by writing down every word. And I think it's a lot of hard work. So if you need to be have a level of passion about it. I think. If you have a passion for something you need to say, a book is a great thing to do. speaker-0: That is a perfect way to end. Chris, thank you so much for joining me. And I hope we can do this again. And wishing you a lot of luck on your resurgence in the content generation game and re-stimulating some marketing here. Let us know how we can help. And thanks so much, Chris. I really appreciate it. speaker-1: That was great, Travis. Thank you so much.