Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #369 Talk With Your Kids About Things That Matter with Michael Parker

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#369 Talk With Your Kids About Things That Matter with Michael Parker · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, there's more to having a conversation or a debate
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  Speaker 2: than just making sure that you shout the loudest and
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  Speaker 2: have the highest energy and get heard.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
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  Speaker 1: and Dad.
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  Speaker 3: Today.
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  Speaker 2: This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy Families
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  Speaker 2: dot com. Do I I'm here with Kylie, my wife
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  Speaker 2: and podcast co host, Mum.
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  Speaker 3: To our six daughters.
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  Speaker 2: Kylie, we are going to have a conversation just now
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  Speaker 2: that I think people are going to love.
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  Speaker 4: You.
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  Speaker 3: Know how people are always saying I can never get
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  Speaker 3: the kids to talk.
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  Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
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  Speaker 2: This is going to change that forever. Although I don't
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  Speaker 2: know if these are the conversations that we sometimes want
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  Speaker 2: to have with our children, it's going to be, well,
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  Speaker 2: well we do, but boy, it's tricky. We are going
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  Speaker 2: to have a conversation right now with Michael Parker. Michael
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  Speaker 2: is the author of a brand new book called Talk
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  Speaker 2: with Your Kids About Things That Matter. Now, this is
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  Speaker 2: actually a revised and updated book, and we'll talk about
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  Speaker 2: that shortly. But with the current pandemic context, it is
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  Speaker 2: such a great time for it, and it's a wonderful book.
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  Speaker 1: Oh.
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  Speaker 2: By the way, Michael's also the principal at Newington College
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  Speaker 2: in Sydney and he joins us right now.
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  Speaker 5: Michael, it's so good to have you with us today.
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  Speaker 4: As I've spent time in the book, it looks like
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  Speaker 4: it's a book full of hypotheticals, am I right?
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  Speaker 6: There are many hypotheticals, and you get.
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  Speaker 4: Why do you think it's important to have these kinds
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  Speaker 4: of conversations with our kids?
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  Speaker 6: I mean the hypotheticals in particular.
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  Speaker 7: I'm great to allow you to get to get into
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  Speaker 7: an issue without either talking about your friends or your
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  Speaker 7: family or a news item. And another thing that you
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  Speaker 7: can do with hypotheticals is you can pretend to be
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  Speaker 7: an expert. So if you are the head of a
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  Speaker 7: medical board and five people come to you wanting a
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  Speaker 7: kidney transplant, and you say, here are five hypothetical people
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  Speaker 7: who you're going to give it to, it allows you
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  Speaker 7: to get into all those conversations about life, about valuing
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  Speaker 7: a life, how do you value a life in those
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  Speaker 7: things without it feeling like you know, you're talking about
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  Speaker 7: agnes or you're talking about some terrible story on the news.
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  Speaker 7: So I love using hypotheticals.
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  Speaker 5: Kind of takes the emotion out of the conversation then.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, it just makes it just makes it a
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  Speaker 7: little bit more playful. Sometimes even if the topic is
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  Speaker 7: not as.
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  Speaker 5: Playful, it's interesting.
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  Speaker 4: It reminds me, Michael, when Justin and I first met,
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  Speaker 4: Justin was really big on these hypothetical conversations. We used
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  Speaker 4: to sit in the car as we were driving to
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  Speaker 4: and from places, and he would just ask me these
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  Speaker 4: ridiculous questions.
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  Speaker 3: That weren't ridiculous.
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  Speaker 2: We were dating, and I wanted to know what your
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  Speaker 2: values were, so I'd just hit you with all these hypotheticals.
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  Speaker 5: But we would talk for hours and hours.
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  Speaker 4: I'd gone up in a home where we weren't particularly
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  Speaker 4: curious learners, and so it was a really different conversation
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  Speaker 4: that I was having with Justin, which obviously was what
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  Speaker 4: I fell in love with, because the conversation was never boring.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, they're they're great fun and kids
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  Speaker 7: kids do it as well. And even with yes, to
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  Speaker 7: use an example, something like conspiracy theories. Now we know
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  Speaker 7: that we've seen the corrosive, dreadful effect that.
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  Speaker 6: That conspiracy theories have had in the last couple of years.
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  Speaker 7: So but to raise it, to start it, the example
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  Speaker 7: I've got is your your friend comes and tells you
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  Speaker 7: that all the all the teachers at school have been
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  Speaker 7: replaced by shape shifting aliens who are teachers and they're
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  Speaker 7: they're taking Yeah. And then I've got a whole lot
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  Speaker 7: of sets of proof, like when would you believe it?
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  Speaker 6: Because your friends saying it?
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  Speaker 7: Because uh, the the Prime Minister has gone on TV
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  Speaker 7: and said that there are shape shifting aliens instead of
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  Speaker 7: your teacher. And I've got a whole bunch of others,
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  Speaker 7: including you see them by the coffee machine.
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  Speaker 6: When when do you believe it?
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  Speaker 2: Uh?
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  Speaker 7: And so that the challenge of when do you believe
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  Speaker 7: something extraordinary comes in but has been fun the whole time,
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  Speaker 7: And then of course you can relate it to something like,
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  Speaker 7: you know, hypothetically election fraud.
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  Speaker 3: Michael, I love.
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  Speaker 2: I'm sitting here grinning from ear to ear as you
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  Speaker 2: talk about this, because these are conversations that really get
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  Speaker 2: to the heart of who we are, how we think,
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  Speaker 2: what makes us, not necessarily what makes us tick, but
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  Speaker 2: what would move us, what would motivate us for making
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  Speaker 2: a certain decision making of values based judgment. I'm flicking
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  Speaker 2: through the contents again just to highlight some of these
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  Speaker 2: hypothetical these hypothetical scenarios or even real life scenarios that
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  Speaker 2: our children wrestle with.
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  Speaker 3: You've got things I love this.
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  Speaker 2: You've got stuff around animal rights, about meat, about whether
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  Speaker 2: we should be killing and hunting animals. Like we've got
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  Speaker 2: six daughters, Michael, do you think that we've ever experienced
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  Speaker 2: a daughter that says I'm going to be a vegetarian.
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  Speaker 7: You know, I did have a daughter years ago who
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  Speaker 7: said that, and I said, fine, eat your vegetables, and
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  Speaker 7: that was the endnet.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, well we should try that. But there's things
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  Speaker 2: in here about trust and racism and prejudice.
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  Speaker 3: There's really big thinking stuff.
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  Speaker 2: And what I love about it as well, because you've
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  Speaker 2: got this philosophical background, You've got your masters in philosophy.
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  Speaker 2: You're bringing in some of the some of the really
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  Speaker 2: big thinkers of history. You've got Plato and Aristotle, and
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  Speaker 2: you're talking about Emmanual Can't for example, and Hobbes.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm kind of.
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  Speaker 2: Looking at this and I'm thinking, this is hard to
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  Speaker 2: have conversations about things like you talk about the pandemic.
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  Speaker 2: You talk about vaccinations, You talk about how you would
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  Speaker 2: roll things out, like talking to the children, how would
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  Speaker 2: you roll it out who should get the vaccine first?
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  Speaker 2: When there's this brand new flu that hits and obviously
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  Speaker 2: you haven't caught it COVID nineteen.
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  Speaker 3: You've given a different name and created forty two.
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  Speaker 2: That's but as I was thinking about it, I thought thinking,
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  Speaker 2: there's a great quote from Henry Ford. Thinking is really
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  Speaker 2: hard work, which is probably why so few people engage
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  Speaker 2: in it. What I've also discovered is that it's fun.
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  Speaker 2: Kids really enjoyed.
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  Speaker 5: Especially when you're talking about shape shift.
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  Speaker 3: Is that's right?
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  Speaker 2: But I'm thinking there's a phrase that I love to
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  Speaker 2: use with my kids, and that is that it's hard fun,
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  Speaker 2: really hard fun. And what have you found when you're
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  Speaker 2: having these conversations with students at school or with groups
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  Speaker 2: of kids that you get to engage with around these topics.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, so most of them, because it peaks their curiosity,
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  Speaker 7: they then get into it. It helps with the open mindedness,
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  Speaker 7: so it does all that. So you can play around
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  Speaker 7: with that, and then if you go further and further
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  Speaker 7: and ask why a few more times than getting too
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  Speaker 7: then you get the rigor coming in as well, this
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  Speaker 7: is this is actually hard and it's a muscle and
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  Speaker 7: I'm working it, and that is that is really important.
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  Speaker 6: I think to be to be a thinker or a
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  Speaker 6: citizen in the world, because these things really are are hard.
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  Speaker 7: So I think it's it's great to have your curiosity
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  Speaker 7: peaks and go, oh.
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  Speaker 6: What is this?
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  Speaker 7: But then you then you then you dive in and
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  Speaker 7: with the with your parents and with your family continuing
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  Speaker 7: to do all these all these tricks in a conversation
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  Speaker 7: to push it further. Then you then you get to
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  Speaker 7: the really meeting stone.
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  Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you mentioned that as well, because
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  Speaker 2: it's a real skill and a lot of people struggle
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  Speaker 2: with it. They'll say, well, I asked them the question
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  Speaker 2: and then they give me the answer, and then it's like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: and what you've what you've done really nicely is and
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  Speaker 2: so so gently is as you've said no, no, no, that's
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  Speaker 2: the bit where you start to really ask the questions
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  Speaker 2: where you say, well, tell me more about that, or
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  Speaker 2: why do you feel that way?
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  Speaker 3: Or what about if this happened, how would that change it?
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  Speaker 2: And that's when, like you said, you start to get
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  Speaker 2: rigorous and go deeper, and it makes it so so
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  Speaker 2: so interesting. In just a sec we're gonna disclose what
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  Speaker 2: happened when we tried to have a conversation with our
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  Speaker 2: kids about one of the big topics in talk with
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  Speaker 2: your kids about Things that Matter. We're talking with Michael Parker.
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  Speaker 2: He's the author of Talk with Your Things about Sorry,
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  Speaker 2: Talk with your Things, Talk with your kids, have talked
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  Speaker 2: with your Things?
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  Speaker 3: Go on? Just do it. Talk with your kids about
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  Speaker 3: things that matter, the principle of New Eton College. More
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  Speaker 3: in just a.
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  Speaker 1: Second, it's their Happy Famili's podcast.
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  Speaker 7: For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because
• 8:12
  Speaker 7: a happy family doesn't just happen.
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  Speaker 2: Details at happy families dot com dot au.
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  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we
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  Speaker 4: have a special guest, Michael Parker, author of Talk with
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  Speaker 4: Your Kids About Things that Matter.
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  Speaker 3: I believe I said talk with your things about kids
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  Speaker 3: that matter.
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  Speaker 2: Michael, I sat down with our kids a little over
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  Speaker 2: a week ago with the book. I opened it up
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  Speaker 2: to the chapter about vaccines, and I started to go
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  Speaker 2: through the conversation with them we had a fourteen year
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  Speaker 2: old and eleven year old in the room. The other
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  Speaker 2: kids were off doing other things and couldn't participate in
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  Speaker 2: the conversation. And this is hard for me to say
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  Speaker 2: because I am a parenting expert. Michael, at least that's
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  Speaker 2: what my bio says. It didn't go well. What happened
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  Speaker 2: is that one child came quite dominant, began to raise
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  Speaker 2: her voice, absolutely refused to listen to what her sister
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  Speaker 2: had to say. That her other sister became irate, and
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  Speaker 2: instead of having a philosophical conversation, which was I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I had this beautiful evening planned where we were going
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  Speaker 2: to play around with ideas and dig deep, they just
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  Speaker 2: shout at each other. Then they crossed their across their
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  Speaker 2: arms instead of each other and said, you don't know
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  Speaker 2: what you're talking about. And that was kind of it,
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  Speaker 2: and I would try to open them up again. I'd
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  Speaker 2: ask another question. I'd say, well, hang on, let's let's
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  Speaker 2: try and teach you how to listen and understand and
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  Speaker 2: see what Michael helped me any tips.
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  Speaker 7: Well, one of the things that you that you can
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  Speaker 7: do is say there's there's a everybody gets the say
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  Speaker 7: the thirty percent chart that the thirty percent of speaking time.
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  Speaker 6: Something that you do.
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  Speaker 7: At school is you you have a series of sort
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  Speaker 7: of like five or six match sticks each or something
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  Speaker 7: like that, and when you've said your bit, you throw
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  Speaker 7: it in.
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  Speaker 6: So you've got so much time to speak, but.
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  Speaker 3: But not more.
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  Speaker 7: There there is a phrase about heat and light, and
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  Speaker 7: you can you can start saying, so, okay, so what
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  Speaker 7: you've got there, how much how much heat was in that?
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  Speaker 6: And how much light is in that? And if there's
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  Speaker 6: too much.
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  Speaker 7: Heat, well maybe you've you've got to tone you tune
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  Speaker 7: that down.
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  Speaker 6: And it's not about and that that then has nothing.
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  Speaker 7: To do with the the individual conversation about vaccines or
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  Speaker 7: whatever the issue is. It's the sheer fact that by
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  Speaker 7: by having having really got emotional about it, or having
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  Speaker 7: really yeah, put your put your line in the sand,
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  Speaker 7: you've you've sort of hurt the conversation by not allowing
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  Speaker 7: those other things. Another thing to do is is the
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  Speaker 7: phrase devil's advocate. I find is really really important to say, Okay,
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  Speaker 7: let's have the other person playing devil's advocate. So it's
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  Speaker 7: not even as if somebody is opposing you because they
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  Speaker 7: really disagree with you. It's that's that's the that's the trick,
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  Speaker 7: or that's the game of the game.
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  Speaker 6: But that's that's what you're supposed to have.
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  Speaker 7: We're supposed to find the other argument or the other side,
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  Speaker 7: and then the person can come back with that. Well,
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  Speaker 7: you can get them to play Devil's Advocate on themselves.
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  Speaker 6: So if you had to.
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  Speaker 7: So there're some of the things that you can do
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  Speaker 7: when when the heat starts going up.
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  Speaker 4: I think you should have just broad in the shape
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  Speaker 4: shift is would have changed everything.
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  Speaker 2: Should But we'll put the shape shifters at the top
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  Speaker 2: of the vaccine queue.
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  Speaker 3: Let's do it.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll find another topic.
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  Speaker 7: Vaccinations at the moment is probably the hottest topic around.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. I did pick one that would fire
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  Speaker 2: them up. I confess I probably didn't set them up
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  Speaker 2: for the most successful conversation. But that's the world that
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  Speaker 2: we live in, right, I mean, this is what happens
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  Speaker 2: on Facebook, and I mean Twitter is just so over
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  Speaker 2: the top with this kind of thing.
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  Speaker 3: It is the world we live in.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that's why this book's so so very important,
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  Speaker 2: because it teaches kids that there's more to having a
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: conversation or a debate than just making sure that you
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  Speaker 2: shout the loudest and have the highest energy and get heard.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And and a lot of where a
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  Speaker 7: lot of this comes from this I think all the
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  Speaker 7: philosophy and schools movement, and there's actually not all that
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  Speaker 7: much philosophy. There's some philosophy in it, but it's not
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  Speaker 7: But it's all about how to have those discussions. And
• 12:20
  Speaker 7: admittedly it's it's it's in larger groups, but that that
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  Speaker 7: it's really focused on giving, giving reasons, pointing out your assumptions,
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  Speaker 7: finding the the other, the other point of view. And
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  Speaker 7: so it's those techniques are the things that matter for
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  Speaker 7: you know, for rational discourse, for being able to to
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  Speaker 7: talking about not ending up you know, throw it, throwing
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  Speaker 7: the plate around the dinner parties when you're an adult. So
• 12:46
  Speaker 7: so I think, yes, it is, it is over a
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  Speaker 7: period of time, going through that process that's as important
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  Speaker 7: as whatever thing you spoke about vaccines, torture or masks
• 12:56
  Speaker 7: or whatever.
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  Speaker 5: Michael, I'm wondering, how do I keep our my own bias?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, if I'm having these conversations and I've got really
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  Speaker 4: strong opinions about it, how do I how do I
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  Speaker 4: have a conversation with my kids that allows them.
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  Speaker 3: Or did you say with your husband that keeps your
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  Speaker 3: bias out?
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  Speaker 7: So I got asked by my daughter two days ago,
• 13:19
  Speaker 7: what is what is the National Party?
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  Speaker 6: What do they stand for?
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  Speaker 7: And I said, Okay, I'm going to I'm going to
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  Speaker 7: say it, and at the end of it, I want
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  Speaker 7: you to have no idea whether you whether whether I
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  Speaker 7: would vote for them or not. And and so I
• 13:37
  Speaker 7: so that then gave me a discipline to speak about
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  Speaker 7: it as as as neutraally as I could. And she
• 13:45
  Speaker 7: probably knows after sixteen years, she probably knows enough about
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  Speaker 7: me to know whether I would have voted for them.
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  Speaker 7: But one of the so to keep your biases to
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  Speaker 7: your own biases out, one of the the things you
• 14:00
  Speaker 7: can do is is have the whole spectrum of opinions
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  Speaker 7: and present all of them and and just just sort
• 14:10
  Speaker 7: of lay them out like a small bes board. So so,
• 14:12
  Speaker 7: for example, I mean using the vaccines, you can say,
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  Speaker 7: here are five pers here are five different things that
• 14:18
  Speaker 7: could be about people who aren't getting vaccinated, and you
• 14:23
  Speaker 7: can say every everything from that.
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  Speaker 6: Those people should be able to.
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  Speaker 7: Live their lives as as as freely and as well
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  Speaker 7: as everybody else too, and then you can go through
• 14:33
  Speaker 7: a series of restrictions to they have to hibernate in
• 14:37
  Speaker 7: their own house till the crack of doom. And if
• 14:42
  Speaker 7: you've got all of all of the options open, it
• 14:47
  Speaker 7: is less likely that that someone can go, well, there's
• 14:51
  Speaker 7: there's your bias there.
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  Speaker 6: I did the same thing recently with them.
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  Speaker 7: We were talking about who could who could get refugee
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  Speaker 7: status in Australia, and again we just we used everything
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  Speaker 7: from nobody to everybody and everything in between, and that
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  Speaker 7: helped with reducing sort of my own biases.
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  Speaker 2: I really love the concept here of helping our children
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  Speaker 2: to think things through, even from a young age, because
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  Speaker 2: it's going to help them to be more more thoughtful
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  Speaker 2: as adults, but also to be better citizens of our communities,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: of our global community, because when we think this stuff through,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: we get to tap into what matters to us. We
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: get to focus on our ethical and principal base and
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: and make decisions from there, rather than flying off because
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: we don't like what we just saw on the telly
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: and we have to let the whole world know on Facebook.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: I love that we're almost we're almost out of time.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: But there's one question that I've been itching to ask
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: you since we began the conversation, Michael, and that is
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: when it comes to talking with your kids about things
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  Speaker 2: that matter. What do you think matters the most? What
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: is the number one thing that you think kids need
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  Speaker 2: to talk with their parents about and have meaningful interaction on.
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  Speaker 6: My answer is very un sexy.
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  Speaker 7: It is how to live as a decent friend, school person, husband, wife, employee.
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  Speaker 7: So those questions about would you know when, would you
• 16:31
  Speaker 7: when you've ever?
• 16:31
  Speaker 6: Would you still still from your boss with the supermarket?
• 16:34
  Speaker 7: What happens when your friends go to part your best
• 16:38
  Speaker 7: friends invited to a party, and then you get invited
• 16:40
  Speaker 7: to a much much better party, much more exciting party
• 16:42
  Speaker 7: from somewhere else. Those sorts of questions about the life
• 16:47
  Speaker 7: that they will lead and the moral and the ethical
• 16:51
  Speaker 7: decisions that they will probably have to make in life.
• 16:54
  Speaker 6: I think they're the most.
• 16:55
  Speaker 7: Important ones, even though they're not the ones we sort
• 16:57
  Speaker 7: of neon lights and the sort of flashing lights in
• 17:01
  Speaker 7: the book, Michael.
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: If we were to wrap up by conversation today, what
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: would be your take home messages? Nice quick take home
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: messages for parents?
• 17:10
  Speaker 7: Okay, so two or three things to remember as you're
• 17:12
  Speaker 7: sitting by that dinner table. Is one ask why, and
• 17:17
  Speaker 7: then ask it again. Usually three wives get you to
• 17:20
  Speaker 7: a really good place, and five wives get you to
• 17:22
  Speaker 7: somewhere absurd. So a couple of wives in there, try
• 17:27
  Speaker 7: not to have your own biases come out.
• 17:31
  Speaker 6: The kids.
• 17:32
  Speaker 7: The kids are the ones doing the talking, so you're
• 17:34
  Speaker 7: the one really helping them and shaping them rather than
• 17:38
  Speaker 7: telling them what you really think. And the third one
• 17:43
  Speaker 7: would be to play devil's advocate, so that is gently
• 17:47
  Speaker 7: putting the other side, not because you disagree with them,
• 17:49
  Speaker 7: but just because you've explained what the other side was.
• 17:52
  Speaker 7: And probably the last one is talk less than half
• 17:55
  Speaker 7: the time. If you find yourself talking half the time
• 17:59
  Speaker 7: or more than, you've probably turned into a lecture and
• 18:02
  Speaker 7: her problem. Q.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Now, I was going to say that's my biggest problem,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: but I think that's ours because you don't mind that either,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: do you, Kylie. Really you're so harsh, Michael, Even as
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: you mentioned those things, I'm smiling at the conversations that
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: you get to have with your kids about it.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: The book is really, really wonderful.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: We were joking before we recorded the podcast that it's
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: a kind of a clunky title, as several of my
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: books are as well. But it's just such a great
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: book that the title says exactly what it is, and
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad we've been able to talk about it today.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Talk with your Kids About Things that Matter by Michael Parker,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: the principal at New England College.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: Michael, what a privilege and what a great conversation. Thanks
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: for joining us.
• 18:40
  Speaker 6: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: We really hope that you've enjoyed this conversation with Michael Parker,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: the author of Talk with Your Kids About Things that Matter.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: you'd like more information about how to make your family happier,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: including checking out our Happy Family's memberships where you get
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: ongoing monthly and weekly and even daily support, please have
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: a look at Happy Families dot com dot a u