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S3 | E2 Marian Siljeholm · The Permission Slip

• S3 • E2 Siljeholm === Matt Kosterman: Hey, this is Matt, and I'm back with another episode of The Permission Slip. today I am here with Norwegian-American multimedia journalist, Marion Sejlhomme. Welcome, Marion Marian Siljeholm: Hello. Thank you for having me Matt Kosterman: Thanks for being here. I'm looking forward to our conversation all things psychedelic. so, Marian reached out on a group that I'm on, in the internet, and was looking for people who had had, basically transformational experiences with MDMA, yes? Matt Kosterman: Was your... 'Cause Marian Siljeholm: Ja. Matt Kosterman: you were doing a paper. Marian Siljeholm: Mhm. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Marian Siljeholm: Mhm. Matt Kosterman: that was how we connected. So tell us, how, how did we get here? What, what's the- Marian Siljeholm: Oof, that's a great question. well, I'll work backwards, I suppose, from our meeting. So, I came into this work about a little over a year and a half ago, so really a relative newcomer to this space. and so I wanna say at the outset that I am definitely not an expert. I feel like anyone who tells you they are a full-blown expert, though, is lying to themselves because there's just so much to know and so much to learn. Marian Siljeholm: but yeah, definitely not an expert. But I came into this work, through my own personal journey of healing and searching for, something that would work for me. And like a good journalist, once I came upon it, I was fascinated and wanted to learn more. And so, I was wrapping up a graduate program, last year and had the good fortune of a professor who kinda gave me carte blanche to do whatever I wanted as a final paper, and I was fascinated by this work and wanted an excuse to kind of learn more. Marian Siljeholm: and because I was a full-time student and also working full-time, I didn't have a lot of capacity, so the opportunity to use the learning about this work, within my studies was really exciting. so Matt Kosterman: the, what was the program? What was the degree you were getting? Marian Siljeholm: it was... The easiest way to describe it is basically like a journalism program on steroids. Matt Kosterman: Okay Marian Siljeholm: of like journalism for the 21st century. Marian Siljeholm: So it was everything from coding to traditional journalism. the idea was really to, it's really to equip the modern workforce of storytellers, whatever that looks like. So, it's a pretty unique program. I had not come across anything like it, which is kind of why I was excited about it. It's run through Northeastern University's School of Journalism. Marian Siljeholm: I think my technical title was Masters in Media Innovation and Data Communication, which means so many things and also nothing at the same time. but no, it was great. I mean, you learned everything, everything multimedia storytelling. And my background has-- I've sort of worn a lot of hats, but I've mostly worked in the international humanitarian aid space. Marian Siljeholm: so really bringing to life stories that were human-centered, often very much trauma-centered, about the work we were doing and why it mattered. And that was really my job, was to make sure that our funders, the taxpayers, if it was USAID work, understood why we were there and why we were doing it and why it was important for the work to continue. Marian Siljeholm: So I loved it. Yeah, it was a great way to combine photography and writing, and those were sort of my first two loves. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Well, yeah, Mary and I should have Marian Siljeholm: yeah. Matt Kosterman: she's, well, a multimedia journalist probably implies it, but she's also a very talented photographer shoots with Nikon, which is the best brand. Marian Siljeholm: Thank you, Matt. Appreciate you. Matt Kosterman: Well, beautiful, beautiful work. She's out there on... You're on Instagram? What is it? You, you have great Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you Matt Kosterman: your, what's your handle there? Marian Siljeholm: Oh, so it's my beautifully impossible Norwegian name. So it's, Marion Siljeholm Photography. and we can put it maybe in the notes somewhere so people don't have to try to spell that. Matt Kosterman: Super im- super impressive Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: So Marian Siljeholm: Thank you Matt Kosterman: to this through your own trauma Marian Siljeholm: Yeah, exactly. So, oh, man. I'm trying to think of where to start. So I, um It's interesting, you know, people talk a lot about rock bottom. I think for me, I had to reach the bottom below rock bottom and stay there for a little while before I was ready to really face what was inside. but I, like too many people, went through a very traumatic childhood. Marian Siljeholm: when, when I was ten, my, older sibling was killed in a freak accident, for which I was present. And prior to that, my childhood had been, riddled with fear, essentially. my dad was very abusive, very angry person. And so, the only memories I really have from childhood, aside from my brother's death, were, you know, being afraid to come home, my parents fighting in the middle of the night, my dad breaking things. Marian Siljeholm: and so I think I just grew up in this bath of fear and pain, and that is not an environment that is conducive to childhood development. I would say it's actually the opposite. So, and so the consequences of growing up in that environment, were something that I had tried to deal with as an adult, but I felt like I was just scratching the surface really. Marian Siljeholm: And I'd been in therapy for my entire adult life, different types of therapy. I tried... Oh my gosh, I felt like I tried everything by the time I was thirty, you know. and oh my God, everything, you know. Like e-e-everything, all the things, all the things. Just like searching for something that would unlock, whatever was in there. Marian Siljeholm: It felt like my trauma was like stored in my cells, and I couldn't get it out. And I would tell myself I was fine, and I would, I would bury myself in work. I would say work was kinda my drug of choice. and I was just on this hamster wheel for my entire adult life. And, I think I felt like if I, if I stopped for long enough, you know, it would... Marian Siljeholm: whatever it was would catch up to me. So I just, if I kept running, I could kinda outrun it. Yeah. and this is, you know, a, a cliché for a reason. I think I'm not alone in this. Matt Kosterman: you're alone in this, no Marian Siljeholm: but yeah, and then when I was, actually, when I was in grad school, my entire world fell apart. I was... My relationship fell apart, and then the same month, I was in a car accident, and I was really, I got a really bad concussion, and then I lost my housing. Marian Siljeholm: And then USAID, um- disappeared essentially for all intents and purposes. So it was sort of like my, my professional world, my personal life, my f- my foundation, my security, like all of it just kind of disappeared within this like 30-day period. And I think this, this, scaffolding of safety that I had tried to erect in my life just crumbled. Matt Kosterman: Well, it Marian Siljeholm: And Matt Kosterman: all your, your entire Marian Siljeholm: It was m- yeah, it was on so many fronts, exactly. And so I just, I was like plunged into this hole that I couldn't come out of. and I think it was, it was the catalyst for, for this road beginning, I think for me. And what was interesting is that I think what has kept me on this path of healing was actually what I had learned several years prior to that. Marian Siljeholm: when I was in my mid-20s, I found out that I had severe osteoporosis, which is a very strange diagnosis to get at that age. and what I learned through that was that, the reason I have that is because my body was under such a crucial stage in development at an, at my... Ex- excuse me. My body was under so much stress Matt Kosterman: yeah Marian Siljeholm: such a crucial stage in development, and the stress went on for so long that it basically shut down. Marian Siljeholm: And, you know, people tell you stress can, like, give you stomach aches, but the idea of it giving somebody osteoporosis was a little bit of a stretch for me, and that just... I remember sitting in that doctor's office and just thinking like, excuse my language, "What the fuck?" Matt Kosterman: Yeah, no, you Marian Siljeholm: Like, Matt Kosterman: swear. Marian Siljeholm: I mean, it's like, what is happening? Marian Siljeholm: Like, this is ridiculous. And, and not only that, but I remember flashing back to every single goddamn person who had told me when I was a kid, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Matt Kosterman: Mm, Marian Siljeholm: I just remember thinking, "Are you fucking kidding me?" Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Marian Siljeholm: Like, this is so ironic. But that, that moment really was a turning point for me because I realized all of a sudden that holding on, that, that basically what I had gone through as a child wasn't done hurting me, and I became really angry in that moment because I felt like I barely had survived my own childhood, like it doesn't have the right to keep doing damage. Marian Siljeholm: and, and also I remember feeling like I am on my own in figuring out, like, because this medical system that I'm somehow existing in, they're not helping me. Like, they haven't figured this out. They don't, they don't know why this is really happening. I mean, it, it took being bounced around from specialist to specialist to specialist to even find somebody who had connected the dots between my childhood and what I was dealing with now. Marian Siljeholm: And osteoporosis is one of... Matt Kosterman: amazing that they Marian Siljeholm: Sorry. Matt Kosterman: sorry, I mean, it's Marian Siljeholm: Yeah, yeah. No, it, and it was a tr- it was a trauma specialist actually who, who eventually said, "You know what can happen to the body when you're under this much stress? Like, has anybody ever talked to you?" And, you know, I was sort of like, "No." And, and then I went on my own journey of, reading and learning as much as I could. Marian Siljeholm: I finally read The Body Keeps the Score, and, you know, which is a name that gets thrown around a lot now, and I know there's a lot of controversy around Bessel van der Kolk, but I will forever be grateful for how he helped me understand my body. he has this quote in there that lives rent-free in my brain. Marian Siljeholm: He talks about... He says something like, it's like the traumatized, traumatized people feel fundamentally unsafe in their own bodies. And I remember reading that and thinking, "I think this is the first time I've ever felt seen." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Marian Siljeholm: and it was like I just finally understood, what I had been going through. Marian Siljeholm: Um, Matt Kosterman: The Marian Siljeholm: but it, that, yeah, the gravity of it and, and it, and finding the vocabulary to explain, you know, why I had been so... Like, just what I'd been dealing with. Like, why I was so sick, why my body never responded to anything the way it should. at a very young age, I mean, I, I, I learned that nothing happened the way it was supposed to for me. Marian Siljeholm: and I didn't find out until much later, you know, that all tied back to stress. because our stress response is such an incredible thing. I mean, the way we have evolved to survive is, it's beautiful. It's incredible. It's dynamic, but it is not meant to stay on for years on end. I mean, let alone... So Matt Kosterman: A Marian Siljeholm: it's just, yeah. Marian Siljeholm: I mean, it, and it, it's interesting 'cause when it does, it actually really hurts you, because the, the mix of hormones that are released in that response are just not meant to be chronic. And when they are chronic, they can do so much damage. Matt Kosterman: When then, were you also on... Did you go on SSRIs at all? Marian Siljeholm: That's a great question. I actually have never really been on medication, and it wasn't because I'm against it. I think it, I think it works really well for people. I learned very young, I started having very strange reactions to things. This is sort of tied up in the picture of craziness that I am referring to, like in my whole life. Marian Siljeholm: I just medically never responded to things the way I should. And so I remember having a minor dental procedure when I was 12, and I ended up in children's hospital with an infection that it was like getting the bubonic plague in 2020. Like, it was like so strange. Like, nobody gets this infection anymore. Marian Siljeholm: They, like, put me in a medical journal, which is definitely not how you wanna be famous Matt Kosterman: Oh, shit. Marian Siljeholm: they because, like, nobody has had this infection after having this, like, minor dental procedure that was, like, an outpatien proc- outpatient procedure, like, not a big deal, and I end up with this life-threatening massive infection. Marian Siljeholm: I'm in children's hospital for, like, a month. I almost died. Like, Matt Kosterman: cow Marian Siljeholm: nothing is normal. So it made me terrified, and it, and it, it fueled, it fueled this narrative in my head that I am broken and that I am, I am, my body is fundamentally not working the way it's supposed to, and that contributed deeply to this, to this sense of fear about the world around me. Marian Siljeholm: And, I didn't, I didn't realize, like, the gravity of that, I think, until I was in my late twenties and, and I started dealing with all these health issues that were related to chronic stress and chronic fear. Because the thing is, if you're in-- if you're living in fear about the world and about your body because you feel fundamentally unsafe in your body, then you're going to be living in fight or flight. Marian Siljeholm: I mean, that's just... So this is a very long-winded way of answering your... Matt Kosterman: think or talk your way out of it typically Marian Siljeholm: No. No. Absolutely not. No Matt Kosterman: it's biochemical, it's Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. And I had, I feel like, I felt like I had spent so many years in different types of therapy trying to just not be afraid. And I was basically spending my life looking, always searching for what was gonna hurt me next. Marian Siljeholm: Um, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: and that ruined every relationship I was ever in because relationships are an inherently risky prospect. I mean, you run the risk of being hurt, and I couldn't... I think I couldn't tolerate that. And so at a certain point, I would sort of self-destruct in the relationship always. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marian Siljeholm: and that's not uncommon. Marian Siljeholm: I mean... Matt Kosterman: Yeah, sabotage the thing Marian Siljeholm: Absolutely, yeah Matt Kosterman: before it hurt you. Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. The old cliche. Yeah. So this is my long-winded way of answering your question about how I came to this work. But I basically, yeah, I, I, I hit this wall and, and I remember it was interesting. I was sitting in a doctor's office, and I couldn't even tell you the name of the doctor now. Marian Siljeholm: and I should because I would love to send him like a thank you note because I remember I was sitting in his office in Boston, and it was like a rainy Wednesday afternoon, and, he was a sleep specialist. I... For me, falling into that depressive hole, one of the things that kind of broke was my ability to sleep in that, depressive state. Marian Siljeholm: And without sleep, it was like this hamster wheel that I'd been on was no longer possible because I was just so exhausted all of the time. It was like I couldn't... I could no longer maintain the illusion that I was fine and that I was holding it all together, and that what didn't kill me had made me stronger. Marian Siljeholm: Like all the lies just sort of Matt Kosterman: ha- Marian Siljeholm: came crumbling. Matt Kosterman: you were juggling while you were running on the Marian Siljeholm: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And it all-- it was like all the balls fell at once simultaneously. Matt Kosterman: you're Marian Siljeholm: so I'm spinning and, and I'm, and I'm in grad school, and I'm working full time. Like, I'm just... It's like I don't have, I don't have the, the time to fall apart. Like, I remember thinking like Matt Kosterman: just go harder, Mary. You're not doing Marian Siljeholm: yeah, exactly. Marian Siljeholm: Exa- It's like exactly, exactly. Like, it's like I feel like this is my-- been my twenty twenty-six mantra is like do less. Like, just most people are like, "Do more." I'm like, "Do less." Let's just... But, yeah, I remember sitting in his office and he, and he, God love him, he said, you know, "I can't help you," which is not something that doctors are always forthright about. Marian Siljeholm: So I appreciated the honesty. Normally, it's more like, "Well, try this pill or whatever, and we'll see." But he just said, "I can't help you." And I was like, "Oh." And he said, "But I, I think I know someone who can." And then I will never forget this. He handed me this business card, and he looked me in the eye, and he said, "I didn't give you this." Matt Kosterman: ーん。 あ Marian Siljeholm: sleep-deprived brain, like, woke up and was like, "Well, this is different." And the business card was for a woman who does psychedelic-assisted therapy in Colorado. And I remember I, um... he said, "You text, text her." So, and that was it. And again, I, I don't even know the doctor's name now. Matt Kosterman: mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: and Matt Kosterman: for him. Marian Siljeholm: probably better for him. I mean, he was like, you know, "Just take this. This is, this is what you need. I can't give you what you need, but she might be able to." And I remember I texted this woman, and I-- she asked me how she-- how I'd gotten her information, and we moved over to Signal pretty quickly, which I had to download. Marian Siljeholm: I didn't know it existed, so I was like totally newcomer. Matt Kosterman: chat for those out there wondering. It's a, it's a messaging app Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: fully encrypted Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. So we moved over to Signal and we had a call and, she told me about what she did. And I remember she said, "Well, do you have any, do you have any questions?" And I was like, so... And like, I remember thinking, "I have two buckets of questions." I have like the journalist in me has 15,000 questions, and the, the me in me just wants to know like how fast I can get her to Boston or like can I fly to you? Marian Siljeholm: Like, just tell me how I, tell me how I do this because I'm... I remember she said, you know, "I help people for whom nothing else has worked." And I just remember thinking like, "Sign me up." Like, I... Whatever it takes, like Matt Kosterman: had you ever had any psychedelic experiences, like in high school or college or Marian Siljeholm: No. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Marian Siljeholm: know, and this is what's really interesting because it's actually the same reason I had never tried... I'd refused to try SSRIs. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Marian Siljeholm: my body would always react so strangely to everything that I was like, I think what they would call a wet blanket in college. Like, I didn't, I didn't do anything, and it wasn't because I was against it. Marian Siljeholm: Like, I remember Matt Kosterman: ja, Marian Siljeholm: seeing my friends doing drugs and, like, drinking a ton, and I was so envious because I wanted nothing more than to not be in my body, but I was so terrified of my body reacting in the way that it would. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marian Siljeholm: I remember freshman year of college, one of my friends gave me some of her Adderall And 'cause it was finals week, and I was a stupid freshman, and I hadn't done what I needed to do, and I had, like, three exams the next day, and it was like, you know, the classic. Marian Siljeholm: And she was like, "Just take a little bit. Like, it'll just take the edge off." And I will never forget, I took it, I went to the library, and I started... One of the, the last thing I remember was I started getting this headache. And it was like I kept turning down, I remember turning down the brightness on my laptop screen, like thinking that would help. Marian Siljeholm: And I remember I got all the way down to, like, I couldn't make it any dimmer. And I felt like my head was, like, being cleaved open from the back. And so it was horrible. And I remember I couldn't, I didn't think I was gonna make it back to my dorm. Like, I started feeling nauseous. Matt Kosterman: う Marian Siljeholm: So I went to my friend's dorm, who lived right next to the library, and the last thing I remember was, like, walking into their dorm room. Marian Siljeholm: I blacked out. It was like that was it. It was like six hours later I wake up. And that was, like, on a tiny bit of Adderall. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Marian Siljeholm: bit of Adderall. I bla-- And so I was like, "Okay, my body is, like, trying to kill me, clearly, so I'm not gonna, like, give it any ammunition to do this faster." So I never did... I mean, it was like I didn't do anything. Marian Siljeholm: I would drink a tiny bit, and I would just be blacked out. Like, so Matt Kosterman: Fascinating. Marian Siljeholm: It was really infuriating. Like, 'cause I wanted, I wanted to dissociate. And so it felt like the only drug that was left to my disposal was work. So I would just work myself to death. And I remember being in college. I had three majors and two jobs and a minor. Marian Siljeholm: I know. It's like, why? Like, for what purpose? Like, what was I trying to, what was I trying to do? And it was because I couldn't sit still. Because if I sat still for long enough, the... It was like I felt like I was standing next to this swimming pool of, of darkness. Matt Kosterman: 嗯。 Marian Siljeholm: And if I, like, if it's like if I stood still long enough next to the pool, I might just, like, fall in, you know? Marian Siljeholm: It was like I couldn't... But if I kept moving, I could outrun whatever it is that was kind of, like, waiting in the wings for me, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marian Siljeholm: until, until, you know, it all happened. Until it all happened, and I couldn't. So anyway, all this is to say, I think one of the reasons I got so much out of my experience was actually because I had absolutely no concept of what I was going to be, Matt Kosterman: So you went to Marian Siljeholm: experiencing. Marian Siljeholm: So I didn't go to Colorado, actually. This is a long, winding story. But basically, I ended up... I was considering it, and I told her I was willing to do it. and she ended up recommending, she said, "Well, let's, let's see if I can find someone in Boston who's good, who we trust." And it was tough. Boston is definitely, there's not nearly as many, practitioners in this area. Marian Siljeholm: but I did find Matt Kosterman: legal in Colorado at this point for psil- Marian Siljeholm: It was legal in Colorad... Matt Kosterman: psilocybin, not MDMA, but psilocybin, right? Marian Siljeholm: exactly. Yeah. So, so the woman I spoke with initially, she worked with multiple, modalities, so MDMA, Matt Kosterman: んうんうん。うんうん。 Okay. Marian Siljeholm: and that woman actually ended up not working out. She was about to be moving. So it was like the woman I ended up working with was like a referral of a referral of a referral of a referral. Matt Kosterman: yeah Marian Siljeholm: But I remember meeting with her, and, she was very conservative in her approach, which I loved, because I was terrified. I was like, "I'm gonna be the first woman, woman, first person to do this and just die out of nowhere." Like, Matt Kosterman: right? Nobody's Marian Siljeholm: from mushrooms, yeah. Like, nobody's ever died. No, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be the first because that's my, that's my track record. Marian Siljeholm: And so I loved that she was very methodical. She was very conservative. And she also, told me a bit about her story, and she was... She had sort of a eerily similar... I mean, it's similar because so many of us are out there, you know. It's not... We were-- Me and her are not the only two, but she also was sort of like a reformed workaholic. Marian Siljeholm: She had, been through childhood trauma and just worked herself to death as an adult. And, so a lot of what she spoke about really I resonated with, and I felt like she understood, me. So I trusted her and, so we met in person and, you know, we talked more and, and, I... You know, it's interesting. Marian Siljeholm: I remember with all of the precaution and all the prep work and, even with all of that, I remember like two weeks before, we, we scheduled a time to do the journey, and I remember like two weeks before, I remember sitting in my car and thinking, "I don't wanna do this. Like, I... This is, this is a bad idea. Marian Siljeholm: I, I just think that this is not gonna go well." And, and then I remember that night I got home and I was also sitting in my car. I guess it's where I do a lot of my thinking. But I have these two vivid memories of, like, thinking, "I'm not gonna do this." And then it was, like, later that day, I got home, and I, I was sitting in my driveway, and I was like, "I don't wanna, I don't wanna live anymore. Marian Siljeholm: Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do this. I... But I, I don't view hurting myself as an option. Matt Kosterman: OK Marian Siljeholm: like, what do I do with that? Like, what do I..." And then I remember thinking, "I have to do this," because I don't know... Like, that to me was a new... I'd been depressed before, but I'd never been in that space of, like, I just don't wanna be here. Marian Siljeholm: but after what I'd watched happen to my brother, I didn't view... Like, I associated death with, like, it just wasn't an option for me after what I had seen. And so, and what I've actually, more importantly, what I'd watched his death do to my mother. I, so I just felt like, you know, I felt trapped, you know, in this, in this, in this life. Marian Siljeholm: And I remember thinking, "I have to do this therapy. I, I don't know what's gonna happen, but it has to be... It's something different from whatever this is." And, um, Matt Kosterman: And, and Marian Siljeholm: I just had Matt Kosterman: can't Marian Siljeholm: no choice Matt Kosterman: up the mountain any longer. Marian Siljeholm: Sisyphus is not sleeping, Matt Kosterman: No, Marian Siljeholm: he is out of commission. The sleep thing really, it was interesting because I've been through so many medical, like, shit shows in my life, but stopping sleeping is such a particular form of hell because, I mean, you just... Marian Siljeholm: It's like basic daily functioning becomes this monumental effort. I mean, doing the most, s- doing the simplest things. And it, it feels like, it felt to me like my body was betraying me. Like, my body was like... And it's interesting because looking back now, I feel like, I almost feel like my body knew it was the one thing I couldn't, like, keep going through. Marian Siljeholm: You know? It was like Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marian Siljeholm: we're gonna take away the only thing that's, like, keeping this crazy circus moving forward because we don't wanna do it anymore. Like, we're done. Yeah, it was like, it was Matt Kosterman: show. Marian Siljeholm: like, exactly. It was like all of my cells came together and they were like, "All right, guys, like, we're out. Like, we're not doing this anymore. Marian Siljeholm: This fucking crazy commander we've got thinks that we're fine." Yeah, like, exa- like, literally that's, like, what... It's, like, the, that's, like, literally the mental image that I had. It was like they all, the union was like, "All right, we're out." So, like, "She can think like she thinks we're gonna keep doing this shit show, but, like, we're not Matt Kosterman: No, Marian Siljeholm: doing this anymore." Matt Kosterman: We're going on Marian Siljeholm: We're going on strike. That's, that's literally they went on strike. And so I couldn't ignore it. It was, like, the one thing that I just couldn't, you know, keep going through. So, so yeah. I had my first journey last November. so, Matt Kosterman: on a year. Marian Siljeholm: yeah, coming up on a year. And Matt Kosterman: with, with mushrooms? Marian Siljeholm: actually, no. I ended up just doing MDMA. Marian Siljeholm: It's interesting. And, that was a whole conversation I had with her. I, I remember reading about the different modalities and, I remember reading that with MDMA, I think the way that it was, there was, like, this one phrasing that, like, one of the many, like, podcasts that I had listened to had kind of used. Marian Siljeholm: It was basically like, I think she said it was like, it was like imagine more self-love than you've ever imagined in a few hours. And I remember thinking, I have no idea. When people would talk about, like, self-love, Matt Kosterman: Right Marian Siljeholm: I, it was like I was trying to imagine a color I'd never seen. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marian Siljeholm: Like, I was like Matt Kosterman: to describe a color you'd never seen, like... Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Marian Siljeholm: Yeah, like just kind of... I had no idea what they were talking about. Matt Kosterman: Well, you don't Marian Siljeholm: I had no idea. Matt Kosterman: you don't know Marian Siljeholm: And I, so I remember thinking like, "Well, self-love sounds nice." Like, and I remember also reading, you know, it was much gentler. It was gentler than psilocybin. Like psilocybin could be a little harsher and, and me again being terrified, I thought, you know, "Well, I'm gonna do the, the most gentle option." Marian Siljeholm: So I remember insisting like I kinda tried to say, you know, "I know you're the expert, but I really only wanna do this one." Like, "Is that okay?" And she was like, "Yeah, you know, of course, like whatever Matt Kosterman: mm-hmm Marian Siljeholm: comfortable with." And we kind of, we talked through the different options. So but yeah, so my first journey was, was purely MDMA, very low dose. Marian Siljeholm: and man, it, it changed everything I, and since then I've had one other journey, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, with, Marian Siljeholm: where we... Matt Kosterman: Jeremy, who I interviewed a Marian Siljeholm: Jeremy, yes. Yeah, with Jeremy, he was amazing. and with that we did introduce some psilocybin as well, Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. Okay. Marian Siljeholm: which I think was incredible in combination with, the MDMA. Matt Kosterman: Little hi- little hippie flip. Marian Siljeholm: Yeah, it, it was interesting. So, and I-- So in the capacity of doing the project that I ended up meeting you through, I ended up, with this massive, it was like somewhere between a report for the class, but also like a massive journalism project on steroids. Marian Siljeholm: Like I-- Matt Kosterman: a New Yorker Marian Siljeholm: It was, yeah, it was like an incredibly like... It was like way too long for any one, but to me it was like the beginning of several other stories, which is kind of what it's become. Matt Kosterman: So, so in, in, but in the journey you, you found a little bit of self-love Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. So yeah, so I kind of... Sorry, I'm going down a bunch of different rabbit holes simultaneously here. But, what I, what, what so many people who I interviewed for, that piece had told me was that the, the different journeys you have kind of build on one another. Matt Kosterman: Угу Marian Siljeholm: And so that's why I bring that up because in the first journey I had, it was like it opened this door to what was possible. Marian Siljeholm: and Matt Kosterman: to how you could Marian Siljeholm: it's Matt Kosterman: body Marian Siljeholm: to how you... Yes, to how you could feel because for the first time in my life, I learned what it was possible, how it was possible to be if you didn't have fear, and that changed everything. it's really wild how much not loving yourself impacts everything. and so when you do then for a brief moment even, Matt Kosterman: Угу Marian Siljeholm: it's like the entire lens through which you view the world changes. Marian Siljeholm: and I remember coming out of that journey and, I mean, it was just like everything was different. I I'm trying to think of like specific examples because it's, it was like my whole life just felt different. But I remember like to, to talk about my relationship with my mom, for example. we had always had a very fraught relationship because Marian Siljeholm: She had been a very loving mother, but she had not done anything about my dad. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Marian Siljeholm: so I think I grew up feeling very betrayed and very, unprotected and kind of unsafe, and then resentful of her as an adult, for not protecting us and not, not... I mean, just kind of in my childhood mind, kind of just letting him terrorize us. Matt Kosterman: Ja, ja. Marian Siljeholm: and she finally asked him to leave after my brother had died. But it took that happening Matt Kosterman: Mhm. Marian Siljeholm: her to, to do that. And even then, after she a-asked him for a divorce, it was a three-year process during which he, you know, cheated on her with our neighbor, and it, it was like this horrible Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marian Siljeholm: of hell 2.0, 'cause my brother wasn't there to protect me the way he had been. Matt Kosterman: mm Marian Siljeholm: All this is to say, my relationship with her had completely deteriorated while I was in this depressive state. And all of this anger that I had towards her that I'd never really dealt with kind of came out full force, I think, 'cause I didn't have my coping mechanisms. And so, I remember with her specifically the day after my journey, it was like what all of the things that she would say and do, none of them felt as sharp anymore. Marian Siljeholm: and our interactions, it was like I could interact with her and I had no hatred for her anymore. I had no animosity for her. I had no anger towards her. Because I had realized during my journey that she had stayed because she was afraid, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: and I had lived my life in fear. Like, I had made every decision I'd ever made because I was afraid, and I had hurt people because I was afraid. Marian Siljeholm: It was like I, I empathized with her. And so because I, because I could empathize with her, it was just, it's like it took away all of this, frustration and pain and animosity, and it's like I saw myself in her. And because I suddenly loved myself, this is the crazy twist of events, I was... I felt compassion for her, and also I felt, this is so crazy, I felt so grateful for every horrible thing that had hurt me. Marian Siljeholm: I was so grateful because I realized all of a sudden that if I love who I am, and I am who I am because of these things- Why would I hate those things? Like, it doesn't make any sense. And it's crazy because so many people over the course of my life had said to me things like, "Oh, you know, you have to be grateful to your pain." Marian Siljeholm: Or like, you know, again, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Like, all of these things, and I just remember, like, wanting to, like, stab them in the face, like, every time. And so, Matt Kosterman: well, Marian Siljeholm: yeah Matt Kosterman: the way through it is through it, and you gotta go through the pain, but when your body is constantly on alert and constantly in fight or flight, it doesn't want any more pain. Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: you Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: gotta get that Marian Siljeholm: Yep. Matt Kosterman: offline Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: in order to Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: yourself to feel it Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. And I just, it was like I suddenly felt gratitude. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: the gratitude piece, I had never really been grateful. I've been thankful for things throughout the course of my life, like I... Somebody could do something for me, and I would feel genuinely like I, I appreciate that. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: But deep gratitude is a very different experience. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: and I, I just remember, I remember after I... So my sess- my journey itself, and this has actually happened both times that I have, both of my journeys were very long. So I took a very low dose, but I was... I mean, my second journey in particular, Jeremy told me he'd never had someone be in it for that long. Marian Siljeholm: I mean, it was like, it was like seven, seven and a half hours. Matt Kosterman: You got Marian Siljeholm: And I definitely go in my... Poor Jeremy, I should've, you know, paid him more. Poor guy was like, I was really going through it. But, but my first journey was the same way where I was, I was in it for about eight hours. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Wow Marian Siljeholm: and, and, I remember coming out of it and going into the bathroom and looking in the mirror, and it was, oh my God, it was like... Marian Siljeholm: People talk about this, they're like, "Yeah, looking in the mirror, it's like, wow." Matt Kosterman: Ja, Marian Siljeholm: It's true. I remember looking in the mirror and thinking, "Holy shit. Is that, is that me?" Like, I was like putting my hand like on the mirror, and it was, it was the craziest sensation. I mean, 'cause it was like seeing myself for the first time. Marian Siljeholm: And then the next morning, I remember waking up and like feeling the bed underneath me and just thinking like, "This is the first day of my life." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Marian Siljeholm: And it's so interesting because... Sorry, what Matt Kosterman: No, I Marian Siljeholm: were you gonna say? Matt Kosterman: in it the next day? Were you still Marian Siljeholm: No, I mean, well, that's a great question. Was I still in it? I felt like I was in it for like three weeks. Marian Siljeholm: But Matt Kosterman: yeah. Marian Siljeholm: I mean, for me, my integration session was really profound. Like I, I felt profoundly different for weeks. Matt Kosterman: Okay Marian Siljeholm: and then with time, you know, it sort of fades. But, but I felt, yeah, I felt very different. I mean, even just being able to get out of bed in the morning, like the world just felt suddenly less heavy. Marian Siljeholm: But it's so interesting because that moment stays with me, in particular because there's another moment that I used to always feel like my life had begun in that moment, and it was the day my brother died. I remember we were standing near the accident site. My, my mom had called my dad, and he had come down. Marian Siljeholm: he wasn't with us. We were bicycling to school, and my brother was hit by a train. And, it was just like a freak accident, shouldn't have happened. There was construction, the gates weren't working, and all these different factors. you know, if the timing had been two seconds different, wouldn't have happened, that type of thing. Marian Siljeholm: which don't even get me started on the phrase everything happens for a reason. That's like I won't even go there. That, that's... But anyway, my point with all this is that I remember we were standing by the tracks, and my mother, who was... She's a very quiet woman. She's, she listens deeply and always listens a lot before she speaks, and she never speaks above, you know, like a normal talking volume. Marian Siljeholm: Like I'm always yelling her to speak louder, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: I remember that day she was screaming because what else do you do in that moment? Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: And I remember in that moment, my ten-year-old brain thinking, "Oh, they can't fix this." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Marian Siljeholm: And not only can they not fix all of this and what just happened, they can't fix that, like them, whatever that is. They can't... Matt Kosterman: Any of Marian Siljeholm: So any of it, like I am, I'm on my own. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marian Siljeholm: And that moment was the moment I felt like my life began. Like, and so waking up after the MDMA, it was sort of like, "Oh, no, now this is where actual living begins." Marian Siljeholm: Like, it was just these two very distinct kind of... It was like a chapter in my life had closed, and now another was starting. because I didn't wanna live in that state of fear anymore, and I could finally see what it had done to my life to live in that state of fear and in that mentality of I'm alone always Matt Kosterman: Always And, and so, and this was, this happened before you decided to do the paper obviously, for... Marian Siljeholm: yes. So timeline-wise, so that was in November, and then I remember after my MDMA session, I was like, "Okay, I need to learn everything about this now." Like, now that I've seen what this can do, the journalist in me, like, woke up and was like, "Okay, now this is... We're d- we're gonna figure this out." Matt Kosterman: 'cause now you could get some sleep as well, so it could Marian Siljeholm: 'Cause now I can get some sleep, so yeah, exactly. Marian Siljeholm: Now I was sleeping, so all wheels were back on track. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Marian Siljeholm: on, back on the hamster wheel. No, it was like Matt Kosterman: no Ambien required, right? Marian Siljeholm: no Ambien required. Oh my God, Ambien. It was the Trazodone that really got me. Matt Kosterman: oh, oh Marian Siljeholm: anyway, so my point with this is, once that had happened and I saw and experienced firsthand what this could do, I became obsessed with learning as much as I could about it. Marian Siljeholm: But I was working full time and I was in grad school, so I didn't really have the capacity to kind of like go off on my own and do a reporting project. So when-- So fast-forward to, I was going to be in my last semester, and one of my professors who I'd sort of developed this like, friendship with as well, he had sort of seen me at my most depressive episode and, you know, he's been a really nice guy, and I remember he just said... Marian Siljeholm: We were talking about final projects, and we all kinda met with him individually. It was a, it was a class about reporting on global conflict, so it really had nothing to do with MDMA. It did and it didn't. Like, you know, there's like, depends on how much you wanna stretch the concept of trauma. But I remember kinda saying to him, you know, we're floating different ideas for the final paper, and I remember him kinda taking a step back, and he was like, "You know, what do you wanna write about?" Marian Siljeholm: And I was like, "Well, this isn't something I ever thought I would talk about with a professor, but let me just give you a quick insight into what my life has looked like over the last six to eight months." And I spoke to him about it a little bit, and I mean, his, his eyes were like quarters. He was like, "Huh," you know, "Okay." Marian Siljeholm: He was like, "All right. Well, I don't get it, but Matt Kosterman: do Marian Siljeholm: me get it in the paper." He was like, "Just do it, and I'll understand it when I read the paper." And I was like, "Okay." So that was really the impetus for this, this project, 'cause I didn't have the bandwidth to just kinda be doing it on my own. So I really, I went into it with a complet- cle- completely different mentality than I've ever gone into a reporting project, which was, actually something that I think I attribute to, this work. Marian Siljeholm: I went into it with the idea that I have no idea what the final product is gonna look like, and that's totally fine, and that's a completely different tact from how I'd approached every reporting project prior, and pretty much anything in my life prior. Matt Kosterman: had, you always had, the out- the outcome in Marian Siljeholm: I... Matt Kosterman: like what, Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: you were gonna land, where you were gonna Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. Exactly. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marian Siljeholm: Yep, absolutely. Marian Siljeholm: Because the idea of not controlling the narrative like that was terrifying. I mean, how, how could I not, you know? And that Matt Kosterman: beginner, I mean, it's beginner's mind in the, in the Buddhist tradition. Like, just go in not knowing. Marian Siljeholm: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Not knowing, and just let it unfold Marian Siljeholm: And that shift has strengthened my work as a journalist immensely, because now I go in with some f- you know, structure of a plan maybe, some idea, or ideas and people I might wanna speak to, but then I really try to let the reporting process guide what ends up becoming. and that has really-- it's really, I think, changed my work in a fundamental way. Marian Siljeholm: but it's scary going into it always. And so I, I went into this project and basically just I posted on, you know, Reddit threads. I, put out feelers with the people I knew in the space, and I just said, "I wanna talk to anybody who's willing to speak with me about what their experience was." and yeah, I mean, that's how I met you, and that's how I met a lot of other people who have changed my life in this space. Matt Kosterman: Well, you also, I mean, you went right to the top. You got, you went with like the, the folks at Johns Hopkins and the folks over in England and Bas, did you talk Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: der Kolk and, Marian Siljeholm: I talked, I talked to his team. Matt Kosterman: to his Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: and, Marian Siljeholm: because the reporting project had to take place in, like, a month, they were like, "Yeah, you could speak to him in, like, six months, but not tomorrow." Matt Kosterman: Not Marian Siljeholm: So it's like fair, fair. Matt Kosterman: you, did you talk to Gabor Mate's team Marian Siljeholm: Their team, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was amazing. I mean, and it was, it was the most fun that I'd ever had reporting in my life because I cared so much about the topic, and it was so fascinating learning as much as I did. Marian Siljeholm: And I've never been in so many interviews where we were, like, crying because, because so many people... I mean, I... Having total strangers open up to you about the deepest, darkest parts of their life and of their soul, I mean, it was just this incredibly profound experience over weeks of having these conversations with people. Marian Siljeholm: And I think it's interesting. I think there is something to be said for the fact that I was a complete stranger. Um, Matt Kosterman: う Marian Siljeholm: you know, I think sometimes it almost can be easier to be completely vulnerable and open and honest with someone who is not in your life in any way. And I always gave, I gave everyone the option of staying anonymous. Marian Siljeholm: Some people chose to, some people chose not to. but I really wanted people to feel able to be completely honest. and so if anonymity helped them feel that. But I had so many people reach out to me from so many walks of life and so many corners of the world. You know, I spoke to people in Asia, I spoke to people in East Africa, and in Europe, you know, in, in, in the US. Marian Siljeholm: And I think that's what really blew me away was the wide breadth of people for whom this work... It was like everyone's background could not have been more different, and their trauma could not have been more different, and yet their story was eerily the same in that it was nothing else worked for me. My trauma was ruining my life and making me physically ill, and I came to this work, and this work saved my life. Marian Siljeholm: And that's a very, like, that's a very, you know, black and white linear way of putting a process that is not black and white or linear. But, but that common thread Matt Kosterman: that's the Marian Siljeholm: of that sort of... Matt Kosterman: that's the Marian Siljeholm: But that is the arc. That is the arc. And that's, I think what, what blew me away was just that, like, so many people with so many different, you know, backgrounds could have the same story Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and I think that's, you know... I mean, I, I on my high horse or whatever about like this, the, the, the criminalization of this medicine, and it's, think that's part and parcel of why that's the arc, because you don't think it's an option. It's not, it's not on the ACA. It's not on Obamacare. It's not in Medicare, Medicaid, whatever. Matt Kosterman: It's illegal, and it, and it was made illegal by saying that there's no known medical use for it, and it's absolute, utter, and complete bullshit. Like, there is no way around it Marian Siljeholm: You know, it's interesting. I think I went into that reporting project wanting to understand why we are where we are. Like, wanting to understand what you just said. Like, if this works, if it's safe, if it didn't kill me, which if it didn't kill me, it won't kill anyone, which that's not true. But, like, in my mind, I was like, you know, I'm, like, the weakest, weakest const-- yeah, exactly. Marian Siljeholm: I was like, "This shit is safe." And so I was like, "Then why are we here?" Like, if it's safe, if it's been proven safe, if it works for people for whom nothing else works, why are we here? Like, what is... And I think I went through that reporting process. I almost was, like, searching for... It's like I wanted to find the, the nugget at the bottom of the well of, like, this little secret, like, this little twist somewhere in there that was like, "Actually, it's really dangerous when you do XYZ." Marian Siljeholm: Like, it was like I wanted to find some secret that was, like, buried as to why. And instead, what I found is that Marian Siljeholm: What I found is that there's nothing wrong with the medicine. What's wrong is our system. Our system doesn't have... D- our system doesn't know what to do with this type of work, and I think our system is terrified Matt Kosterman: Well, Marian Siljeholm: of Matt Kosterman: system doesn't want people to wake up. Marian Siljeholm: No. No. No, I know, I know, Matt Kosterman: right? It's Marian Siljeholm: I know, Matt Kosterman: not Marian Siljeholm: know. Right. Matt Kosterman: haven't designed it that way. Marian Siljeholm: Well, and it's interesting because yes, it is changing, it's-- which is great, very slowly. Matt Kosterman: Угу, Marian Siljeholm: and I think, you know, not fast enough for a lot of people who need help much sooner. but I think, I think what's interesting too is that, you know, I've always, especially as a journalist, you know, I'm very like, "We have to stick to facts," and, you know, we can't talk about conspiracy theories. And so I've always kind of been very like, you know, when people start talking about the system in, you know, air quotes, I'm sort of like... Marian Siljeholm: I try not to eye roll, but I'm kind of like, "Oh, God," like, you know? So I, I, I wanted to not think that this was about our system, you know, not wanting this to be a thing. I think I wanted to find another reason and instead what I found was that I feel like structurally we... There's too many people who have a vested interest in things staying the same, and this medicine represents something very different. Matt Kosterman: But, but what if it's a combination of people with a vested interest in them staying the same and a whole bunch of other people who are willing to give their power to those people? Marian Siljeholm: Mhm. Matt Kosterman: that's ultimately what Marian Siljeholm: Ja Matt Kosterman: If we're willing to give our... Like, you and I got to the point where we were forced to not give our power away it, it, this is one, I mean, you can look at it through a lot of different lenses, right? Matt Kosterman: But you can look at it through the lens, I think you can look at it through the lens of like, had no fucking choice. Like, I was Marian Siljeholm: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: you. Like, even after the MDMA, I still had thoughts of killing myself. Marian Siljeholm: Mm. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: a Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: years later through COVID Marian Siljeholm: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: like, "No, Marian Siljeholm: sure. Matt Kosterman: the fuck are we doing here?" but it be- it became... And I've always a, you know, I've been in the system, but I always push against the system. ultimately, I- that's my view on it, is just there's a lot of places you can go get this work done. You're Marian Siljeholm: Ja Matt Kosterman: gonna get it at the VA. Marian Siljeholm: Ja. Matt Kosterman: gonna get it from your Marian Siljeholm: Ja. Matt Kosterman: Like, you're, you know. But it is Marian Siljeholm: Ja. Matt Kosterman: there, and to Marian Siljeholm: Mhm. Matt Kosterman: that you don't give your power away. And structures are being put in place. I just interviewed, Neil. I don't-- Did you ever talk to Neil Gahani, the, the Marian Siljeholm: No. No Matt Kosterman: company called Mind Lumen, and they're doing, Marian Siljeholm: Okay Matt Kosterman: deep psychedelic, deep work on ethics and, Marian Siljeholm: Mm-hmm. Super important Matt Kosterman: self. Matt Kosterman: And I have another, another show coming up with, somebody that I'm recording this week on the ethics space with Ashley Carman. So, Marian Siljeholm: Nice Matt Kosterman: it, to me, I'm seeing the, the, the groundswell and people, the things are being put into motion for this to be much more widespread. Marian Siljeholm: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, abs-- and I, but I think as that happens, we have to be so careful about education Matt Kosterman: Yes Marian Siljeholm: about the narratives that, people hear about this work. And it's interesting, so my first, my first journey was... I mean, I could speak a lot more about the things that came up, but so I've sort of covered like, you know, it opened the door basically. Marian Siljeholm: And but then my second journey is interesting. It's completely different, and it, I had a very physical journey. So I basically was, for lack of a better way of putting it, writhing and, Matt Kosterman: ふん。 Marian Siljeholm: sort of screaming into a pillow for seven and a half hours. Matt Kosterman: ふん。 In Marian Siljeholm: many days. Marian Siljeholm: But, but it was interesting because I think I did that journey with a friend who had had a very different introduction to this work. And she had-- So I got a lot out of my journey. She got much less out of her journey. And watching Matt Kosterman: moment anyway. I mean, if we're Marian Siljeholm: in the moment, she still, she still got a lot out of it. I wanna be very careful, like, but she came into it with a very... Marian Siljeholm: Like, watching her go through her process was a good reminder to me of how important it is to make sure that we are managing expectations for people, Matt Kosterman: угу Marian Siljeholm: they don't come in with these massive expectations about what the work will do, what it will look like. and I think for me right now Matt Kosterman: like your reporting. I mean, that's c- Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. And that's, and that's exactly... Marian Siljeholm: And so for me right now as a journalist, I feel like, you know, I wanna use my skills to help this work move forward and to help people find this work. I know it took me too long to find it. and there are so many people out there for whom this could help them. But, we have to be so careful about, about the narratives and about the information people have because if you come into it not willing to do the work because you think it's going to be a quick fix, Matt Kosterman: there's Marian Siljeholm: if you, if you come into it thinking, "This is going to heal me. Marian Siljeholm: I'm just gonna walk away, and it's gonna be the end of it." Like, if you come into it with all of these ideas, or I think if you come into it just thinking, "This is what it's gonna look like. This is what I'm gonna experience," that... I mean, all of these things can set you up to fail. And I worry that as we move towards a world where this might be introduced in some way, which I think is incredible, I think that's definitely the direction we should be moving in. Marian Siljeholm: But as we move in that direction, I just feel now more than ever this, this ur-urgency around making sure that people have knowledge and appropriate language and appropriate frameworks around this work. Because, you know, I think one of the reasons our system struggles with this work is that there's no other... Marian Siljeholm: Like, we're set up to prescribe pills. You know, we're set up... We're not... Matt Kosterman: it's very linear what we're Marian Siljeholm: It's very linear. It's, yeah, I mean Matt Kosterman: completely non-linear Marian Siljeholm: It's completely non-linear. It's, it's not acute care. It's, it's a process, and we are set up for acute care. I mean, in my mind, it's similar to the way that our system struggles with people with chronic complex, rare, you know, illnesses. Marian Siljeholm: Like, we're not really set up... I mean, we're not set up for people like me who have complex post-traumatic stress disorder and, you know, that's a term that I had to read in a memoir. It's like nobody... No diagno- I was never given that diagnosis, which is crazy, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marian Siljeholm: I'm like the textbook case of CPTSD. And so, we're not set up for people like me who have all these constellation of strange health issues related to trauma, because that's an unusual case, you know? Marian Siljeholm: And it takes a doctor looking at the whole picture, looking at the whole person, and it took me almost 30 years to find a doctor who was willing to take a step back and look at the whole picture, the whole person. And it's like we're not set up for that. So if we're gonna be introducing a treatment or a medicine or a modality, you know, whatever, whatever you wanna call it, that requires the process, not just the pill, like, how do we square that with our system? Matt Kosterman: Well, I mean, I don't know. I don't... You know, two, two things to mind. First of all, why, why isn't the system set up to look at that? 'Cause m- the majority of the people, I would argue, have gone through this. That, that's, uh... Marian Siljeholm: Ja Matt Kosterman: a spiritual standpoint, I look at it like that's why we come here. This is, this is, I feel, complete opinion, can't prove it, and but, but on all of the studies that I've done over the last many, many years, that we're here to have these very dense, very difficult experiences because the, the, the you that is you that exists beyond this physical, in a place of beauty and true love and all of that, it gets kinda boring. Matt Kosterman: I mean, Laura's guides, my friend Laura O'Malley, her guides have said that. It's like, you know, it's like we're all laying around, and it's pure love, and everything's great, and everyone's the colors, but you need the contrast in order to grow, and we grow through the contrast. And so the Earth, th- this being, this, this life, so everybody... Matt Kosterman: Like, the fact that the system's not set up to look at this is just fucked in itself because that is, the system that we're in. the other thing that comes to mind is, like, w- maybe it's not gonna be through the system that this happens, right? maybe there are new systems being born as we speak. Matt Kosterman: Maybe there are new ways of, of, of dealing with this, and, you know, I, I've seen in the boards where we met on, there's, there are, there are many, many humans who are really deeply dedicated to this work, and to helping other people and to doing it whatever the right way. There's no right way. Marian Siljeholm: உம் Matt Kosterman: it's, it's shades of gray. Matt Kosterman: It's a, it's a spectrbut they're, they're really dedicated. They're having difficult conversations with one another about this person, the way they're doing it, and this person, you know, and, and, and really showing up day after day after day, and there's people, there's admins on these boards that spend their free time, you know, moderating conversations and trying to turn down the temperature and trying to keep things on track. Matt Kosterman: And so maybe isn't going to be the system. You know, maybe, maybe Rick Doblin losing the thing, you know, the, the, the, the A, whatever, the, the D... Not the DEA, the other one, the other adminis- You know, Marian Siljeholm: See you Matt Kosterman: m- maybe that was a good thing. Maybe Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: go through the Marian Siljeholm: I don't know. Well, and I've-- I spoke to a lot of people. One of the questions I asked in that reporting project was, "Do you think this could work in our system? I mean, do you? Do you see a world where this works?" And I heard from a lot of people, interestingly, you know, "I don't want it to be legalized because if it gets legalized, the system then is going to control it and who has access to it, and we don't trust it not to be ruined by our system." Marian Siljeholm: And so that's also Matt Kosterman: I Marian Siljeholm: for good reason, for very good reason. And I think, I think what's so devastating about trauma is that it is so common. I mean, Bessel van der Kolk's book came out, like, decades ago now, and he talked about trauma as an epidemic. He talked about it as our number one public health crisis, and that was decades ago. Marian Siljeholm: And it's like the numbers have only gotten worse, and we're still not living in a system that even acknowledges trauma as a root of illness. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: And I mean, I saw this firsthand being bounced around from doctor to doctor, but I am so not alone. I mean, there are so many of us out there, and I think this work in particular, the capacity and the potential for this work to help people for whom trauma has physically ruined their bodies and their lives, I mean, that alone Matt Kosterman: I Marian Siljeholm: should be Matt Kosterman: if we could just... I'm, m- after I did it for the first time, I'm like, "Oh my God," like, what if 15% of the people that have, Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: of the people Marian Siljeholm: Yep. Matt Kosterman: would go do this, you know? Marian Siljeholm: The amount of people, I mean, it was like, you know, every single person I interviewed... So for that, for this project, I had probably interviewed 45, 50 people. it was like every night I was on a different Zoom call in a different time zone. It was amazing. It was like, I was like so tired, so stressed, but living my best life. Matt Kosterman: Ja Marian Siljeholm: was... And, and I remember though, I spoke to so many people, and I would say like 99% of them reported some sort of chronic physical condition that then either completely ameliorated itself or, like, got significantly better after the medicine work. So whether it was, you know, chronic fatigue syndrome, you know, arthritis, back pain, you know, like across the board, fibromyalgia, whatever fibromyalgia even means. Marian Siljeholm: Like it's like all these catch-all, all these like catch-all terms that we throw on things that are sort of like unhelpful. Like the amount of people who reported that these conditions went away, like all of a sudden after years of treatment that were, that was unsuccessful. And I mean, it's like why? I mean, that alone should be enough of a reason for our system to get its shit together and figure out a way to make this, to fi- Like, and maybe we have to blow up the system to make this work. Marian Siljeholm: Like, maybe it doesn't work into our system, but that means that our system should just figure something out because Matt Kosterman: yeah. Marian Siljeholm: I don't know. It's like... Matt Kosterman: away. Yeah. Marian Siljeholm: Or go away. Like, I mean, we, there has to be a way that we can integrate this because the stakes are too high. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: people need to be able... I found this because I refused to give up and because I had the capacity to keep looking and looking and looking and looking for an answer. Marian Siljeholm: But not everybody has that ability. Matt Kosterman: Right Marian Siljeholm: have kids and people who are relying on them, and they don't always have the capacity or just, I mean, even just the luck. I mean, the fact that I stumbled upon this work, if I'd never had that random doctor give me that random business card, you know, who knows if I ever would have found this world within a world. Marian Siljeholm: And so, like, you know, we can't leave it to chance because the statistics and the stakes when it comes to trauma and what trauma is doing to people every day are too high. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. A lot of, lot of, lot of people suffering and deep silence and resignation and, Marian Siljeholm: yeah Marian Siljeholm: I mean, even the fact that... So in that project, I also interviewed Judith Herman. She f- coined the term CPTSD Matt Kosterman: Oh. Marian Siljeholm: in the 1980s. Yeah. People say don't meet your heroes. Meet Judith Herman. She is, she is amazing. I'll never forget, I emailed her. I thought there's no way she's gonna email me back. She's like this little old lady. Marian Siljeholm: She lives in Boston. And I remember we hopped on a Zoom call. She was so confused as to why I wanted to speak with her. She was like, "I'm not important enough for you to wanna interview me," I swear to God. And I was like, I was like starstruck, okay? This woman, like, changed my life 'cause... So she coined the term CPTSD in the 1980s after working with survivors of domestic violence, and she noticed that they had a different clinical presentation from the patients she had seen with PTSD And basically what she saw was that their symptoms, it was like the typical symptoms of PTSD, but far more pervasive and far more, far more difficult to treat. Marian Siljeholm: so deep issues with identity, with sense of self, with Matt Kosterman: ん Marian Siljeholm: self-loathing, with, this complete inability to really form or maintain like interpersonal deep close relationships, especially romantically. So it was like this different set, and then also physical symptoms that didn't exist for the patients that were more distinct cases of PTSD, so isolated cases of trauma. Matt Kosterman: like where it was like a war or something that happened in the war or, uh, Marian Siljeholm: exactly. Yeah. So when we, when we, and when we talk about, you know, we-- well, first of all, we don't talk enough about CPTSD as, as just a concept. But, you know, the fact that she came up with this term in the 1980s, and it is 2026, and it is still not in the DSM. I mean, Bessel van der Kolk in The Body Keeps the Score, which I should know the year it came out. Marian Siljeholm: I know it was decades ago, but like the year it came out, I mean, he called that omission tragic. I mean, he was like, "This is a travesty that we haven't..." Matt Kosterman: yeah. Marian Siljeholm: Because, Matt Kosterman: not in there Marian Siljeholm: he's-- and it's still not in there. And the ICD-11, which is like, you know, the international DSM, essentially, they recognize it, but per the usual, the US, we're just Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marian Siljeholm: out way behind. Matt Kosterman: suck it up, go harder, just Marian Siljeholm: yeah, Matt Kosterman: harder, Marian Siljeholm: they're like just... Well, and I think, I mean... Well, anyway, I won't get started on how I feel like, you know, we wanna prolong the workaholic culture. But, Matt Kosterman: Sure Marian Siljeholm: anyway, it's just to me, we-- having a conversation about psychedelic-assisted therapy that is informed and educates and is helpful, it's almost like trying to have that conversation without the foundation below it of an informed conversation about trauma and complex trauma is, I don't wanna say a waste of time, but it's an uphill battle. Marian Siljeholm: Because if we don't even have the language right now mainstream to talk about trauma in the way that we should, I mean, the fact that we, we don't-- most people don't even know what CPTSD is, and they might have it, it's like we're not even there yet. So trying to have a conversation about this type of trauma work and this type of care, it's like we're trying to build on a foundation that is not even there. Marian Siljeholm: And so that to me is also a huge gap and like a missing piece of this conversation that isn't getting talked about enough. Matt Kosterman: 100%. Yeah, I mean, I was in, was in therapy for 12, 12-plus years and on SSRIs and, you know, PTSD never came up, much less CPTSD, which one would argue that I suffered from with what I went through in my childhood. and, and, and I mean, I'm glad I, you know, I like to beat up on my early therapy, but I do know that it prepared me. you know, people will talk about, "Oh, I just did mushrooms, and it was like having 10 years of therapy in one night." And somebody said to me once, "Yes, if you've had 10 years of therapy." Marian Siljeholm: Yes. That's very, it's a very important point. No, it is. And Matt Kosterman: it's not therapy Marian Siljeholm: yeah. Matt Kosterman: a pill, Marian Siljeholm: Yep Matt Kosterman: but it, it can help all of those things land in a new Marian Siljeholm: Yes. Matt Kosterman: you know, did I Marian Siljeholm: Yeah Matt Kosterman: for 12 years? I don't, you know, whatever. The past is the Marian Siljeholm: Yeah, sure Matt Kosterman: know, to your point, yes, we need, we need a discussion. And, and they're ha- they're happening around... Matt Kosterman: I mean, Marian Siljeholm: They are Matt Kosterman: stuff is happening. It, it's, it's never gonna come from the top unless there's money to be made, Marian Siljeholm: Ja. Matt Kosterman: from it, Marian Siljeholm: Ja. Matt Kosterman: amounts. Marian Siljeholm: Ja Matt Kosterman: and, and your point earlier about, like, it's, it's not a, it's not the pill, the, the, the, the medicine's not the be-all, end-all. It's a catalyst. You need to Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. Exactly. Matt Kosterman: work. You need to Marian Siljeholm: Yep Matt Kosterman: So I mean, I've been at this shit now for, I mean, I had my first medicine journey in 2018. And, and I'm just, know, I don't call it the entertainment value of doing it all, calling it my, my life's pur- Like, I'm, I'm just, as a result of some work I just did in Austin, some body work, I'm finally like, "Oh. Oh, th- oh, oh, this is what it feels like to, you Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Well, and the, Matt Kosterman: You know, Marian Siljeholm: the body work... Matt Kosterman: the body Marian Siljeholm: Sorry Matt Kosterman: That's right. I, I went to this guy, and I'll have him-- His, his episode's gonna come out, and it will have come out by the time yours came out. And I'm like, "You know, I feel like, I've done all this work. Matt Kosterman: I feel like, you know, 85%, you know, better than I was." And this guy's worked on 50,000 people in his career. And he's like, "You're one of the stiffest Marian Siljeholm: Oh my God. Matt Kosterman: on." Marian Siljeholm: Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: Because the muscles were still locked up. There wasn't any emotion in there. was all been expelled time and again, but the muscles were Marian Siljeholm: Mm-hmm. Ja Matt Kosterman: new range of motion, and I'm like, "Oh, this is a body. Matt Kosterman: Cool." Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Yeah. So my first journey opened this door, right, to what was possible, and then I felt... And I remember after the first journey thinking, "Oh, I don't, I don't know if I ever need to do this again. Like I'm, I'm gonna go. I think I'm done." Matt Kosterman: fixed. Marian Siljeholm: it was like, well, because it was like I went from four floor, floors below the basement to the, to the ground floor, you know? Marian Siljeholm: So, like, I tell people, you know, I got a lot out of my first j- journey, but that does not mean... First of all, that does not mean you will. It means that I was... I also was in a place that was so dark and so terrible, and I was so open and ready for anything else. Like, I was like a blank slate, and I had been in therapy for 20 years before that trying to work on myself, trying. Marian Siljeholm: And I was at a place, too, where I could see the things that I was doing. I knew they were hurting me. I could see the patterns I was in, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: find a way to not do them because I was so deeply... Like, for me, my, my fear went so deep that it was like I just couldn't, I couldn't... I could see what I was doing wrong, but I couldn't live differently because that would require not living out of fear Matt Kosterman: Well, I would also, I mean, I, I'll throw this at you. Did, did it also require changing your identity? Because Marian Siljeholm: Oh, absolutely. Yeah Matt Kosterman: built around being this person in fear Marian Siljeholm: Yes. Matt Kosterman: who was in Marian Siljeholm: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, being broken. Yeah, that was my identity. Exactly. And, and it's... Matt Kosterman: time, I do, Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. Don't, don't put something else on me. I'm already dealing with too much. Like, don't put your feelings on me or your issues on me. It was like it was a cop-out. I mean, at the end of the day, it's a way to hide from the world, is what it is. Matt Kosterman: But Marian Siljeholm: And Matt Kosterman: it's not a, a, a, a, it's not a intellectual way of hiding from the Marian Siljeholm: No Matt Kosterman: it's a, it, it, you can't, again, you can't think your way out of it. It's what your Marian Siljeholm: No. Matt Kosterman: doing to Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. But so, and the reason I say all that is that I think that set me up well for that first experience because I was very open-minded. I had no idea what I was getting myself into, and my facilitator was great. She, much to my consternation, wouldn't really answer my questions when I was saying like, "But what is it gonna be like? Marian Siljeholm: What, what am I gonna, what am I gonna experience? What am I, what am I... What's gonna happen?" Like, I kept trying to be like, "Tell me exactly how I'm going to benefit from this." And she kept being like, in the, in the nicest possible way, like, Matt Kosterman: Shout out Marian Siljeholm: "No." I'm like, "That's not how this works." And so, but I really went into it, I think. Marian Siljeholm: Also, again, because I hadn't done anything recreationally in college. Like, I'd never done molly in college, so I had no concept of any of it. And that first experience laid this foundation in this really beautiful way. But then what I started to notice was that because I suddenly realized the ways that I'd been... Marian Siljeholm: It was almost like once you realize there's another way to live, not living in that new way suddenly feels extra shitty. And so, like, in the months after, I remember feeling like I was kind of sliding back into old habits, and I was like, but I was very aware now of how I was sliding back into these old habits. Marian Siljeholm: And it felt like my brain wanted to live in a different way, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: body was stuck in the old way. Matt Kosterman: Well, Marian Siljeholm: And so Matt Kosterman: there was a choice. Marian Siljeholm: yes, exactly. My brain was like, "No, no, no, guys, there's another option. There's like a door number Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marian Siljeholm: oh, two over here that we could go through. Like we could... That's, that's cool too. We could-- We like that." Marian Siljeholm: But my body was like, "No, no, no, we're gonna protect you from the world. Like, this is what we've been doing now for 30 years. We know what we're doing. You know, fuck off." Matt Kosterman: Yep, yep. Marian Siljeholm: I felt like I was having this, like, internal war between the way I wanted to live and the way my body knew to be. And so that's why the second journey to me, I mean, it's like I suddenly understood what everybody had told me, which was that they, they build on one another. Marian Siljeholm: And because the second journey, I mean, I literally for eight hours just writhed, and it was this, all of this emotional I think three hours in, Jeremy, Jeremy was wonderful. He kept checking in with me, being like, "Are you okay?" You know. And normally, he told me later, normally people, like, will have a dialogue with him, and I had no dialogue. Marian Siljeholm: I was just... I basically just, well, what I said was, three hours in, I said, "I'm fine. I'm vomiting pain." That was what I said I was doing, which, and that's what I was doing. I was vomiting pain, and I was releasing, and it was literally eight hours of Matt Kosterman: you were vomiting Marian Siljeholm: energetic, yeah, I mean, it was this energetic, emotional release, and that was how my body let go of it. Matt Kosterman: Угу Marian Siljeholm: it was, like, this multiple stage and, um... But without that piece, like, you have to unlock it from your body. The trauma is, as Bessel told us years ago, like, you know, it's stored in your cells. It's stored in your body Matt Kosterman: I mean, you know, I, I, I think I told you in an interview I had, going into my journey, in addition to all of the other body pain I had, I had frozen shoulder. had adhesive capsulitis is the medical name for it, and I'd had a, a cortisone shot that did not touch one iota of it. I had PT, which was absolutely barbaric and hideous, I went in with that pain. Matt Kosterman: I couldn't move my arm out of a very small range of motion, my left arm. I had to change the way I got dressed. Holding a camera was excruciating, 'cause that's my Marian Siljeholm: Yeah Matt Kosterman: hand. And I, I had the journey, and when I left, I had no pain And, and when, and when I came back from ayahuasca, realized, I had the realization that it came from getting spanked as a child. Matt Kosterman: I got lifted up by my Marian Siljeholm: உம். Matt Kosterman: and I got swatted, and that's where it was. And people will be like, "Well, how do you know? How do you prove that?" And I'm like, "Well, fuck you and come and jump Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: 'Cause Marian Siljeholm: I can't, and that's the point. Yep. Matt Kosterman: doubt as to the Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's, I mean, probably unsurprisingly, best sleep I've ever had in my life. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marian Siljeholm: after, the night after the journey was rough 'cause I was, like, wired from the MDMA, and, Jeremy, bless his heart, had given us, a little bit of ketamine in case, but you ha- you had to snort it. Matt Kosterman: Ага Marian Siljeholm: And when I told him I had never snorted anything, I don't think he quite believed me, and so there is this hilarious, like, I wish somebody was there, like, recording because the image of me at, like, 2:00 in the morning trying to roll up a dollar bill to, like, snort this ketamine and not getting it right. Marian Siljeholm: Like, it went everywhere. It was not... Like, because I was just like, "Shit, I really need to sleep." So the first night, Matt Kosterman: like a bad '80s Marian Siljeholm: it was terrible. Like, it was so... And, and poor Jeremy, I mean, I really don't think he believed me when I said, "No, Jeremy, like, I've never, I've never snorted anything." 'Cause, like, I just never did anything, because I was afraid of what my, what my body would do. Marian Siljeholm: but that, so that night was rough 'cause usually it is post-journey. But the night after, I remember slee- I slept for 12 hours, Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Marian Siljeholm: I remember waking up and just thinking, "Okay, yeah, this is, we're good." And, like, my body, like, I, I felt like I had a body for the first time in my life. Like, I felt so light. I didn't have... Marian Siljeholm: Oh my God, I've, I've always had terrible joint pain, stiffness. Like, my chiropractor and I are, like, you know, best friends. Like, I'm there every week. Like, I haven't seen her in six months. Like, it's just, it's, it's amazing. I mean, like, what, what it can unlock in your body and, like, why don't we all talk about this more? Marian Siljeholm: Like, we have-- I mean, it's like, especially over the age of, like, 40, it's hard to find somebody who doesn't have, you know, some sort of chronic something. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marian Siljeholm: And the fact that, again, I just go back to... 'Cause for me, it was always anecdotal evidence of like, oh yeah, I think that this is more common. You know, I think this is a problem. Marian Siljeholm: Like, if we, if we deal with the underlying trapped emotions, I think that some of this physical stuff is gonna resolve. And then hearing it from every single person I interviewed in that project, that they had something physical that was resolved by this work, like, it, it works Matt Kosterman: I mean, I had an, I had an episode, a couple of weeks ago. The woman had a broken tibia going into her ayahuasca journey. She Marian Siljeholm: Oh my God Matt Kosterman: she was on crutches for four weeks. went to Costa Rica. She had the experience during the journey of her tibia regrowing, and when she was done, she was walking without crutches. Matt Kosterman: When she got back to the States, she was supposed to be on them for eight Marian Siljeholm: Oh my God. Matt Kosterman: she got back to the Marian Siljeholm: Jesus Matt Kosterman: an X-ray done, and it was f- it was-- there was no problem. Now, where she went wrong was she kept going back to ayahuasca to get more, and it just kept beating the shit out of her 'cause it's like, Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: You, you Marian Siljeholm: That's how this works. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Matt Kosterman: so there's, there's so much available out there, and that's why I do this show because not only the dr- not only the drugs, also the sex. I mean, we talk about tantric, and we talk about, Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: that energy Marian Siljeholm: Yeah Matt Kosterman: the music and the, you know, the rock. Like, it's, it's all Marian Siljeholm: Well, and I think it's, you know, shows like y- your work is so important, and I hope that the journalism work I'm doing can also serve a similar purpose in that I think knowledge really is power when it comes to this work. If you don't know it exists, how are you supposed to access it? If you don't know what to look for in a facilitator, how are you supposed to find one that is, that is good? Marian Siljeholm: Because unfortunately, you know, there are people out there that don't have the best intentions. Matt Kosterman: Yep. Marian Siljeholm: and so, Matt Kosterman: like Neil comes in and, you know, with, with Marian Siljeholm: yeah. Matt Kosterman: and can match you with Marian Siljeholm: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Y- yeah, so there are resources out there, but if you don't know, how are you supposed to access them? and so I think for me, even, like, learning and just building my knowledge and, and finding the vocabulary to talk about and to understand what I was dealing with was, was the first step Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Marian Siljeholm: this path. Marian Siljeholm: And so I think giving people access to the tools to take that first step, you know, whether or not they continue down the road is going to be dependent on many factors, but at the very least, they can have... You know, those tools are something that work like this can help give them, which is so important. Matt Kosterman: yeah, and it could be the drugs. It could be breathwork. Breathwork is actually ultimately more powerful than the drugs because Marian Siljeholm: It is. Matt Kosterman: supply. Marian Siljeholm: It is. You know, it's Matt Kosterman: so many tools Marian Siljeholm: On that note, I remember, I remember after my first journey, I was for, like, the next three days, I was kind of, like, breathing like a wounded animal. Like, I was kind of like, I, I was like like I couldn't stop brea- I was like, "Everybody should get a taste of this oxygen stuff." Marian Siljeholm: Like, what is this shit? Like, I... Matt Kosterman: 'cause you were Marian Siljeholm: And it was like Matt Kosterman: up into your chest Marian Siljeholm: I had never taken a deep breath. In 30 years, I had never taken... And it's so funny 'cause I remember once in my life I tried to go to a yoga class. It didn't go well, spoiler alert. And I remember, I remember sitting there and realizing with horror that the point of the class was to, like, go into your body and, like, and, like, really sit with your emotions. Marian Siljeholm: And I was like, "Oh, no." And so I was like, I remember I pretended I had to go to the bathroom, and I never came back. It was not, it was not a proud moment in my life. But I just, I-- they were talking about breathwork in the class. And I remember, like, the, the teacher was like she would breathe in, and she would count, and she would get to, like, a count of half of wherever she was eventually gonna go, and I was, like, already maxed out. Marian Siljeholm: Like, my lung capacity, I was like, "How am I supposed to... What are these people doing? Where are they getting these lungs?" Like, I couldn't, I could not breathe the amount that she was telling us we were supposed to. And I just like, I don't... I mean, taking a deep breath requires a level of, like, a real deep breath requires, like, you know, some peace and some sitting and some really, like... Marian Siljeholm: And I just couldn't, I mean, I couldn't go there. So there's no-- So I, my poor body, I realized my poor body had just been so... I'd basically been starving myself of oxygen, of rest, of recovery, of sleep, of food. I mean, I just was not nourishing myself in any way, shape, or form for decades. And I remember all of a sudden realizing, like, what a miracle it is that my body is still working at all. Marian Siljeholm: And, you know, I've, I've been, I've been so angry and s- at my body for failing me Matt Kosterman: Угу, Marian Siljeholm: for not sleeping, Matt Kosterman: угу. Marian Siljeholm: not sleeping. And, like, that's the least that it could've done. I mean, like, wow. Like, I just remember thinking like, "Wow, I am so grateful that my body is still working at all because, you know, I've basically just been not giving it what it needed and then chastising it for..." Marian Siljeholm: It's sort of like I felt like I treated my body like a temporary house, and then I gave up on it when it didn't feel like a home. Matt Kosterman: うん、 Marian Siljeholm: And it's like, Matt Kosterman: ん、うん、うん。 Marian Siljeholm: what the, what are you doing? Like, what was, what was your poor body supposed to do? And so I think, you know, but the physical, going back to the physical piece of this, you know, we have to We have to have the knowledge about what our body needs and, you know, things like breathwork, things like rest and recovery. Marian Siljeholm: And we live in a workaholic culture in this country that glorifies working yourself to death. Spoiler alert, it's not a good thing. It doesn't help you. It's not healthy. Like, sleep is a really important thing. Rest is important and, like, you know, we glorify all the wrong things, and our bodies, our bodies keep the score. Matt Kosterman: They're keeping the score. Marian Siljeholm: Vanderpump was telling us, like, years ago, we're still not getting it through our heads. Like, and whether or not, 'cause I know I was guilty of this, like, I didn't wanna admit what all of what I was doing was doing to my body, but my body was still dealing with it. So I think, like, whether or not we're ready to acknowledge what it, the toll it's taking, it's taking a toll. Matt Kosterman: It's Marian Siljeholm: And, Matt Kosterman: A very similar experience, yeah. Marian Siljeholm: yeah, and I think that's... And physical illness becomes the result of that toll manifesting Matt Kosterman: Every time Marian Siljeholm: every time Matt Kosterman: Well, Marion, thank you so much. What a great conversation. Marian Siljeholm: Thank you, Matt Matt Kosterman: Your paper is up on the internet? Marian Siljeholm: Yes, I can, I can give you links. I'll give you links to all the things. Matt Kosterman: in, Marian Siljeholm: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: and, um, Marian Siljeholm: Sounds great Matt Kosterman: thank you for your, your work and for your courage and going, being public with it. Marian Siljeholm: Thanks, Matt. Matt Kosterman: it. All right. Marian Siljeholm: All right, we'll talk soon. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Take care. Marian Siljeholm: You too