Latest / Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE / Hazel Coonagh // Time and Memory
Transcript
- Danielle: Today's guest, Hazel Coonagh is a photographer and visual artist whose work begins with a portrait, taken in the usual way, a person in front of a lens, and then she transforms it and manipulates it into something surreal, something dreamlike, something layered. The finished piece can look nothing like the photograph it came from. The person might still be there or they might be something else entirely. She pulled from Japanese art and surrealism, pop culture and the natural world, and it's filtered through. Unique sensibility that is definitely Hazel's, and it's kind of hard to describe it in other terms. During lockdown, Hazel made a work called Elements and it combined photography with hand embroidery. And she described the stitching as something she could get lost in, a welcome distraction, the slow, repetitive physical act of needle and thread alongside the digital manipulation of photographic image. Her work has been shown at Crawford Gallery, Outpost Gallery, Orti Illuminations Art Project, and across social campaigns and exhibitions throughout Dublin and Ireland. We're going to delve into her process and I want to ask Hazel today really about her photography and at what point does a photograph stop being a photograph? Most photograph photography starts at ends with a camera, but hers certainly doesn't. ⁓ I've been a longtime fan and a recent enough lucky owner of one of her original pieces, which several ⁓ viewers of the podcast have asked me about, which is in the background here. Welcome, Hazel. Hzael Coonagh: Thank you for having me. That was a very kind intro. Thank you so much. Danielle: ⁓ you're very welcome. So maybe you might start at the beginning, you know, at the beginning of your career. What led you into visual communications? Hzael Coonagh: Absolutely. So I suppose if we go far enough back to when I was a kid, that's when I got into photography first. So growing up in the 90s, pretty much every family had a little point and shoot film camera. It'd used for birthdays, Christmases, holidays, that kind of thing. My family was no different and like a lot of other families, we'd... get the film developed and then store them in photo albums. that became stacks and stacks and stacks of photos, which I absolutely loved. Just something about not understanding the science behind it at that age. And I was a kid, you know, taking a picture of your your mom or dad and then having the physical image in front of you on a piece of paper. There's something really magical about that. So that's what first really, really enticed me and ⁓ brought me into photography. So I started kind of stealing the family camera and taking it along to hanging out with my friends and stuff like that when I was really, really young. And then when I was about eight or nine, myself and my dad were coming out of my grandfather's house and the neighbours were having a sale of work and they invited us in, or rather we invited ourselves in. And I found a little, it was one these really kind of thin, long. kind of cameras they used to have a little kind of case that flipped over and it was maybe like a pound or something like that so I asked if I could have it and my dad said yes and then that was kind of really the beginning of it all so I used it more so like a toy at that time but it was great to have it from such an early age because I think it ingrained a lot of the principles of photography within me then without me realizing it like just how to frame a picture nicely without chopping people's heads off something really basic like that I was able to just kind of get from an early enough age. So that stayed with me. I really liked it because I always liked art as a kid, but I wasn't an amazing drawer or painter. You know, there are always people in my class say that were a bit better than me. And I kind of thought I'd love to be an artist in some way, but I just at that age, you just think that art is drawing and painting. You don't realize that there are other ways that can go. Once I realised photography could be an art form, I thought, ⁓ that's brilliant. I can do that. So I stuck with it at about 17. An ⁓ art teacher of mine, Mr. Byrne, showed me how to use a manual film camera and showed me how to load the film, develop this, all that jazz. And then a year later, I think I got my first ⁓ manual ⁓ SLR camera. So that was still film at the time. So photography has just been with me for a very long time. It's just sort of always been there. And I think by the time I got to college, when I was, I think, was a what? Probably 20 when I went into college, I went and studied visual communications for, it was DIT at the time, TU Dublin Now. Photography was involved in that course, which really suited me. But of course, there were lots of other elements involved. You know, you had computer graphics, psychography, drawing, everything. And I think that was just a good a good place for me to be and that I could take photography as I knew it and start introducing it to all these other kinds of mediums. And I think that's really what made me go in different directions with the medium and what led me to where I am now. Danielle: incredible ⁓ you know that you saw you know the photography as maybe just something that you did it's not necessarily an art form perhaps you know what I mean like any and it's it's quite democratic when you think about it like it every every house did have a camera of some sort you know and they had photo albums and you know it it it feels like the probably one of the most accessible forms of art for a lot of people and for kids you know and I remember some Hzael Coonagh: Nah, I gotta go. Yeah, absolutely. Danielle: those old cameras they're just they're they're beautiful just to as objects you know just as as as objects alone and then I then bringing that love into visual communications and seeing how it could be kind of applied in in different contexts with typography image making and all those different aspects that really kind of kind of I suppose brought together the love of that art form and then a way of applying it in a really modern context. ⁓ were were you ever considering going directly into a photography course? Hzael Coonagh: ⁓ yeah, I applied to them, but I just didn't get into any of them. Which I remember at the time thinking because I'd sort of been doing photography for quite a while, I was pretty confident with the photography courses I applied to. was like, yeah, I'll probably get into them because I've been doing this a while now and you know, kind of know how to use a camera and I'm experienced with it and everything else, even though I'm still fairly young. But I didn't get into any of them and just the way it goes, you know. ⁓ So. I did get into graphic design and I thought, well, I have to do something. And I thought, well, graphic design, I thought was sort of a good option anyway, because again, my art teacher who taught me how to use the film camera in secondary school when I was 17, he kind of said, well, you know, you don't necessarily want to go into something too specific too early as well. Like he said, if you go into something like design. Danielle: But I think that go on. Hzael Coonagh: you're still going to be able to practice photography, but you'll learn a bunch of other skills. And he saw through teaching me an art that, you know, I did have interests that lay in like in drawing and sculpture, you know, other areas as well. Now, like I said, when I was younger, I wasn't as confident in those skills, but you can build them up as get older. And I think when you get a bit older, you realize, you know, skills are things you can learn. It's not something you're born with. I think when you're younger, you don't really realize that you just think. people who are really good at drawing in your class they've just always been really good and they're just good and some people are not good and that's the way it is and then when you get a bit older you realize that's not actually true and you can learn these things and I think even with drawing I did improve with drawing when I needed to and ⁓ surprised myself as well but what really changed for me in graphic design was my introduction to Photoshop and figuring out how to manipulate images and transform them and add effects and things like that. And that really, really blew my mind. And that's really what started to direct my work into different places. Danielle: And I think probably ⁓ I I know from looking at some of your work, it's quite editorial. And I think the probably the the you know this the study of graphic design has definitely informed that as well. You can really see how the work would articulate a an article, a story, you know, ⁓ a front cover, it really does kind of speak to that and it kind of borrows from that kind of editorial world. Hzael Coonagh: Yeah, sure. Danielle: But where where would you say with your work, where are you looking for f for like, you know, kinda inspiration or you know, you mentioned I mentioned at the beginning like this kind of surrealist pop art, all this these kind of styles and movements. Is there any anything that you were kinda interested in before you kinda arrived at the type of work you're doing now? Hzael Coonagh: ⁓ yeah, there's just so much really. mean, cinematography and film, that's a massive one. Obviously that's a very broad statement. There's just, there's kind of so many. As well as that, you mentioned Japanese artists, traditional Japanese art has just always kind of spoken to me to something about the lines and at times the simplicity and the kind of quiet nature of some of it. Danielle: Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: still having a really kind of specific execution to it. It's just sort of, looks so effortless, but it's so not, you know, it's anyone who tries to maybe replicate it can find it so difficult, but it's just got such a balance to it. think the balance is really what I appreciate about it most. And that's something that I try to implement in my own work is just, just the balance of elements of nothing else, know, compositionally. Other than that, mean, yes, surrealism was definitely a big one. When I started to get into studying art myself as a teenager and getting into knowing a little bit more about the art world, definitely the likes of Dali and Magritte and people like that definitely caught my attention because their work was just so different. ⁓ And I just, you know, it intrigues you when something is a bit more unusual, I suppose. So that's what led me down that path as well, I think. And then a lot of that just stayed with me. think when I'm making work myself, I'm usually trying to not play it too safe. I like to try and push the boundaries and surprise myself and surprise myself as far as what I'm capable of doing as well. And as far as other inspirations, guys, you could kind of list them on and on and on. I probably think of 10 really good ones. the end of this interview. ⁓ Danielle: But it it that style that is uniquely yours 'cause you can you can you know, you can spot your work a mile away now. Like at what point did you start to kind of hone that, you know, because obviously you probably if you look back at your portfolio, it's it's most likely very different from years ago and over time while you had those sensibilities and that kind of the proportions, the scale, the quietness, the structure, the precision of those influences, the style that you are maybe known for, if you if you don't mind me saying that. But ⁓ that kind of the w that surrealist the the use of embroidery. at what point did you just kinda go, aha and start kind of going towards that as a as a kind of a unique I suppose a unique output? Hzael Coonagh: do you mean specifically the introduction of textiles? Yeah. So how that came about was a little bit by chance in a way. So it was just just before the lockdown hit in 2020 and at that point a lot of the work that I had done for a couple of years now had been basically on a screen. So I'd take a digital photograph with a digital camera upload it to a screen. I would Danielle: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hzael Coonagh: play around with it in Photoshop, probably upload it to Instagram and that would be kind of its life cycle. And after a while, I really began to miss that tactile nature of film photography and drawing and just making things by hand a little bit more. So I think I was sort of in need of something like that. So I bought a printer and I started printing work and kind of messing around with it. I started putting safety pins through portraits or... adding watercolours, mixing mediums. Again, just try to push photography into a different place. anyway, start of 2020, I'd gotten a gig with doing it was basically just a retouching job for a band through an agency. And they liked what I'd done. And then they came back and said, oh, we'd actually love you to basically remix some of their album artwork or their single artwork. because they were re-releasing a single as a remix. So they wanted you to remix the artwork. And it was one of the band members actually that said, I really like this style that I've seen online of people stitching through photographs. Would you be able to do something like that? I'd never picked up a needle and thread and done embroidery in my life. But of course, what you do in this business is you say, yeah, you can do that. No problem. Absolutely. I do it all the time. And then you just figure it out. So I thought, right, how hard can it be? Turns out it was pretty tricky. Danielle: Mm. Hzael Coonagh: especially the first time doing it but know trial and error you can figure these things out there's so much information online learning art in any kind of medium has never been more accessible than it is now so really there's kind of no excuse ⁓ given how many sort of YouTube tutorials there are and everything else how much software there is to download all that anyway did that first piece for the band they were happy with it and I just found that I really enjoyed doing it so I just kept doing it. So the first piece that I did that was you my own self-directed piece I had taken a self-portrait and I printed it out on some nice A4 Fabriano paper in black and white. I just got all the most colorful embroidery flosses that I could find and just did a kind of kaleidoscopic floral kind of arrangement. At that point to me embroidery was flowers and stuff that's kind of just how That was my association with it. So that's what I did. I did kind of start to make it my own a little bit through my Japanese influences and through Art Nouveau influences as well. That's another big influence on my earlier kind of embroidery work is Art Nouveau and those curves and lines, you know, which they're also very influenced by Japanese art work anyway. But yeah, after a while, I just sort of decided that It was an interesting enough kind of place to find myself that I hadn't expected, that I was willing to continue to explore it further and sort of dedicate my practice to it, which was a big step. It was a big change. It's very different to the type of work I had been doing in its process. Given the amount of time that's involved in stitching through paper or canvas or whatever it might be, I did some through wood as well. Suddenly the very quick Danielle: Mm. Hzael Coonagh: kind of nature of making the image that I was making through digital software is ⁓ kind of just got slowed right down to, you know, very meticulous needle and thread. It's a completely different kind of approach. And I really liked how different it was. I I loved the results. I just thought there's just so much you can do with this. And Danielle: Mm. Hzael Coonagh: I really appreciated getting to work with a needle and thread. There was something about it, even though I hadn't done embroidery before. I'd done a little bit of like hand sewing and things like that when I was younger. So I don't know if it was that, but something about using a needle and thread just felt really comfortable and really natural, kind of from the get go. And I remember saying it to my mother when I started to use the embroidery kind of techniques. She was like, ⁓ well, I did embroidery and your aunt did embroidery and your mother did embroidery or my mother did embroidery and your aunt and everybody else. She was like, it's in your blood. know, it's it's been passed this inherited kind of skill that you just have. So maybe there's something to that, you know, there's who knows. But anyway, it just felt kind of an errant. And I just kept doing it. Yeah, I just kept doing it and just decided this is an interesting kind of thing to explore. It's an underutilized kind of. female centric medium that has been undervalued for years. I felt it's time to kind of bring it out of the craft world and define art. Danielle: Yeah. Amazing. Hazel, sorry, we ha can I just pause it there? Someone is banging on my door and I just need to get them to go away. Sorry. Just give me two seconds. I told you this had happen. Hzael Coonagh: I'm sorry. That'll be something. Danielle: I was like so sorry about that. There's a guy banging the door out of it. He was looking for the wrong address and he was like, Delivery Hzael Coonagh: Hello. You're like, no. Danielle: He's like no and then he started telling me about some dog and I was like, I don't care about the dog. Hzael Coonagh: in the middle of Santa, please. Danielle: So sorry. Sorry. Obviously that bit will be cut out. ⁓ no, okay. I know it's so hot, isn't it? Jesus. Hzael Coonagh: ⁓ brah. Just bring this in for a Cheers. Danielle: ⁓ dear. Phew. Right. Are you okay to go again? Great. Hzael Coonagh: Yep, sure. Danielle: So that slow process, you really enjoy the slow nature and slowing things right down ⁓ with your work and the needle and and thread. Does that give you time to think differently about the work or does it just give you time to think in general? Hzael Coonagh: I suppose a bit of both. It definitely gives you time to think about the work more. think going into once the way the kind of process usually works is I will have an idea in mind, I'll sketch it out or some a few different iterations of it. Then I will shoot it ⁓ with again in a few different variations because you know need to give yourself plenty of options. That's how I like to work. unless you have something just really, really specific in mind. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. But anyway, get the images onto the computer. And that's when I start to work out the templates and things like that of where the stitching is going to go. So I've been tying with just how much I'm kind of including in sort of digitizing the templates for print. Because sometimes I've found early on, if I put in too much of a guideline, basically, Sometimes that can get in the way. So when you start to stitch, you maybe will naturally want to veer in a different direction and, but you can't because basically the templates are there to be covered. Because if you don't cover them up, they show and you don't want the templates to show. ⁓ That's that sort of 101 embroidery. ⁓ I've been trying to experiment with doing as minimal as possible and templates when I can. ⁓ So that you do have Danielle: Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: of bit more freedom when you're doing things by hand. But certainly when you get to that process it's and in some cases it's it depends on how much surface you need to cover basically like the the piece that you have behind you there that's that took quite a while ⁓ because you've kind of it's it's I mean I say it's a large piece and in stitching terms it's a slightly large piece say medium piece and there's quite a few pieces that had to be covered so Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hzael Coonagh: Yes, that can take time, whereas sometimes you might just be doing a few lines and you can do that quite quickly. When you know you're settling in to do quite a long kind of session, I'll typically put on something in the background. There's always at least music when I'm working. That's really, really important because I think that helps with rhythms and building a rhythm when you're doing that kind of work is really important to just keep it going and ⁓ just keep making progress. But yeah, certainly you definitely build more of a connection with the work the longer you take it, especially when you're doing it by hand. You're just naturally using other parts of your brain than if you're doing everything on a computer. So, yeah, I found just that physical act alone really builds a strong connection with the work. And I can usually tell, say if I have a podcast or maybe a TV show or film on in the background, usually. Danielle: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: when I look back at a piece that I've made, I'm able to remember in a way what I was listening to, which is really strange. I could never do that with the other work. But there's something about the cognition of doing stuff by hand that helps to build stronger senses of memory. So that's one interesting thing that I've noticed in doing it. then sometimes, you know, yourself, your mind can go wherever you're thinking about. God knows what. Danielle: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: But yeah, typically it does take a good bit of your concentration. So the mind is less likely to wander than when I did work through, Photoshop and digital applications. Danielle: Yeah. And I think it's when your hand touches something, there's a completely different experience, right? So it's kinda bringing it into a new sense and bringing it maybe back to photography, the way, you know, darkroom photography and you know, exposing the film and that kind of really tactile nature because it always was and then it as you say, your process kind of went from, you know, the screen on the back of the camera ⁓ when it moved away. from film to this, you know, to the upload to to Instagram and it was this kinda screen based transition I guess. But n you know, but now it's kinda you're interrupting that flow. taking it down and holding it and you know, even though the templates are created, you know, ver or digitally, there's still there's a manual ⁓ nature to the work that, you know, brings it back to its original kind of, I suppose, purpose, which ⁓ for me, photography was always about capturing a moment in time, you know, and kinda ⁓ like a a time capsule of s of sorts, kinda like, know, this this was here, this this is the evidence of this moment in time. and in s in a way it's kind of, you know, it's it's kind of the same. It's kind of, you know, slowing things down and and just kind of creating the the the kind of slowness and that that kind of ⁓ that pace to the work that is I think I I suppose it gives you as you say it gives you more connection to it. and I suppose in a time now where everything is fast, fast, fast AI, you know, ⁓ and just churn, churning things out, that really kind of that slowness really kinda I think ⁓ is what makes your work really stand out. There's a quiet calm to the work through the kind of structure, but it has this kind of sense of ⁓ Not nostalgia, but not quite far from nostalgia, even though it's completely new. D do you know what I mean? Like when you look at it there's there's a familiarity to it. ⁓ which I love. I absolutely love. Hzael Coonagh: Absolutely. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that nostalgia that you've touched upon, it's just it's something that's inherently linked to both photography and to embroidery. Because I think we just see embroidery as something that's from the past in a way. I mean, photography certainly, that's that's the main root reason why I got into it was because I just love nostalgia so much and I love looking back and telling stories and, you know, just. Danielle: ⁓ Hzael Coonagh: Memories, all of that. It's such a lovely thing. So I think there is this kind of marriage between the two that works in that sense. Time is so linked to both of those mediums, which is something I've been realizing more and more the last sort of couple of years. Like the more that I do it, the more I realize time and memory are so intertwined in both of them. Danielle: Mm. And I I would say for your work as well, the kind of like emotion or atmosphere as well, like there's ⁓ you know, it's it some of your work is kind of like, you know, peaceful and hopeful, and you know, you're kind of trying to show resilience and all of this kind of this language, and then there's this technical aspect to it as well. So there's kind of like this the the technicality and the technical manipulation and then this emotional register as well. How how do you get those to kind of sit together as well as they do, the the kind of highly technical but quite emotive pieces. It's what ⁓ it's what I see when I see your work. Hzael Coonagh: and Well, thank you very much. It's very kind. ⁓ That's what I'm going for, so that's nice to hear. ⁓ Good, good. Well I suppose just in the concept phase that's when you're, I suppose, drawing from the soul in some sense ⁓ and I suppose that's when you're... the most authentic artistic kind of part of yourself, at least for me in my process. That's when you're coming up with the ideas and trying to figure out how it's all going to come together. ⁓ But the concept is obviously the most sort of important part as far as putting a soul into a piece of work. So I think as long as you kind of come up with something that you can stand on, that you think will work and has says something about you or the way you see the world. You do that and then I just have to kind of turn the mind into the kind of more technical side of things. So you just have to kind of be able to go between both. And yeah, so you have to be a little bit of a dreamer and all of that. But then also you have to be very savvy as far as how you're actually going to bring something to fruition and bring it into existence. So. Yeah, it takes a lot of practice and a of work as well. You know, I know a lot of people might think being an artist is just this like sort of like lovely hippie dippy life and can be in some ways, but obviously it's a lot of hard work as well. So it's just it's finding the balance between those two things. Danielle: And then the concepts that you mentioned there, you know, kind of planning out, sketching it out, like how married are you to the concept when you begin and how much do you let it drift into whatever it becomes? Like is there a kind of like no it it needs to look a certain way when you're like conceptualizing maybe the shoot before the embroidered piece? Hzael Coonagh: I'd say the area where it's most likely to develop and change is when I have the photographs ⁓ on the computer. ⁓ like I said, typically, I will sketch ideas out first and I will do generally very loose, loose, loose, loose there. There's terribly specific. I find that if I am too specific about an idea from the get-go, and I'm not leaving any room for it to breathe or to move or to change. It never really turns out that well. It really finds itself through the process and that's when it starts to take on a life of its own. So at some point through between sort of the sketching and the stitching, it's all that stuff in between then that I think takes it to where it needs to be, like as far as just a more interesting place than where it began. So. I you know, your initial sketches to me should always just be your, your, I don't know, your, I might start this one again, because I'm just, ⁓ I think when the ideas start, that's one place for them to be and to live. But for me, always grow and they always change and develop. But once I start to shoot them, edit those images, come up with the templates. Danielle: Are you? Hzael Coonagh: by the time it's printed it needs to be realized basically. Because it's just the very nature of stitching through paper. There's not a lot of room for error so you have to kind of be pretty well decided. I'll usually do a few small print tests to test out the scale of the stitch and to test out colors and make sure they're all working because if you don't do those things and you just sort of wing it think ⁓ this might work you know you're not too sure but you just try it out anyway you could spend days of work for ⁓ results that you know could have been better and you never that's not work that I'm really gonna put out and I know there were more mistakes that I made early on I kind of know not to do that anymore but ⁓ yeah there's a lot of there's a lot of trial and error still but I do like to come up with an idea but still leave it open for ⁓ some kind of interpretation. I I might shoot a bunch of different say poses ⁓ of a subject and then take them into Photoshop to adjust the tones or play with the colors, which again, it's an area that I'm very, very comfortable with. And then just find, this one that I just did kind of as a throwaway thing at the end is actually really interesting and it takes it in a slightly different direction that I hadn't planned. And that's when I usually find Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Hzael Coonagh: my most interesting work or my best work, I think. So I think you should always be open to those developments and not be too strict in the beginning because you're closing yourself off for the different pathways you might be able to take. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I suppose the medium that you're using paper is not really that forgiving when you start punching a load of holes in it. ⁓ where fabric you know, it has a lot more ⁓ kind of, you know, I suppose malleability in in that respect. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: If you really need to you can undo stitches and things like that. You can do that with paper as well but you have to be so careful. have to be like a surgeon. It's really really delicate. Again there's also canvas. I don't just use paper, I use canvas as well. Like your piece there is canvas. That's a bit more forgiving because canvas is a fabric. It's not like say a cotton or linen or something like that. It's still, once you punch a hole in it you can't... Danielle: ⁓ Hzael Coonagh: it won't seal back up, you know, the way other fabrics will, it's there. And you want as few mistake holds as possible. Or none, hopefully. Danielle: And then you might tell us about the RTE project, the Illuminations project. How did that come about? That kinda happened during lockdown, right? Yeah, so how did how did that come about and tell us about a little bit about that and we'll we'll have some images as well. Hzael Coonagh: Yes, yeah, that was wild. Sure, sure. So that came along at such a perfect time because I just thought that first self-portrait that I mentioned I did with the kind of the kaleidosopic kind of colourful floral embroidery around it. I had just done that. And then I got an email from RTE saying ⁓ we're looking to get artists on board for these commissions and we're going to do this gallery and we'll bring you in and you know, this is fantastic opportunity. to help artists out during the lockdown and they just, I don't know how they found me, I asked them, but they just said your name was just on a list. Someone obviously suggested you at some point, but they just, know, that name had been lost. So I still to this day don't know how, you just never know. It really goes to show like, just, never know all the people that you meet, you never know, they might just drop your name in a meeting one day and then, you know, you can get this great opportunity. So that's how it happened. I just got an email. Danielle: Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: I said yeah great brilliant. They said we're looking for people to really reflect on themes of resilience so that it's not too know doom and gloom obviously it was a very difficult time and they were looking to support people but also not you know shy away from the realities of the difficulties at that time but to show a bit more kind of like resilience. So I had been living in Stoneybatter at the time so I was very close to Stephen, not Stephen's Green Jesus, I'll start that one again. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: I was living in Stonybatter at the time and lived very close to the Phoenix Park. So that was my little haven away from it all. To get away from the noise of the news cycle and just to get a little bit of a break from... You know, I remember at that time, we forget it so easily now, but at the time we were all terrified. We didn't know what was going on. We were like, how long is this going to happen? Danielle: Well Hzael Coonagh: Like what does the future hold for us? What's gonna happen to the world, to our families? So it was a really, really stressful time for everyone. But the Phoenix Park for me was just somewhere I could take my bike to and just forget about it for a little while and then come home. So I definitely wanted to use that as inspiration. And given that I had just found this new mixture of mediums that I really enjoyed, thought, ⁓ maybe I'll do that. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Hzael Coonagh: which I was a ⁓ little bit of a risk since it was some new territory and I was, if I was known for anything, it was more digital manipulation work. But I thought, no, I'm going to go for this because I think there's something to that tactile nature. And it was really because of the lockdown that I started doing it more because it's so time consuming, but I never would have had that time to explore it if my schedule had been what it typically is, which was a very busy schedule. So. Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Hzael Coonagh: The time of the lockdown allowed me to explore that. So I just thought it just makes the most sense to submit a piece that uses this and that is inspired by the Phoenix Park. And that is the first piece, which is a self portrait where I'm doing like one of these and I've got like a leaf and if you're kind of Art Nouveau kind of Japanese style leaf. And I did that with a beautiful kind of green satin thread, which I'd never used before, which really like sprung out off the page of that really matte black and white. ⁓ I was really proud of it. I was like, ⁓ no, this is good. I like this. You know, I thought this there's something there. So anyway, I sent that off to them and I got an email back saying that they really, really liked it. And I mentioned in the email that I had sent with the piece that, you know, thanks again for bringing me on board to do this commission. I really enjoyed making this. I'm going to make more. I just happened to say, I'm definitely going to make more of these. I'm going to turn this into a little series. I love doing this so much. and it's just so I did say that because then they got back to me and they said we could actually we like this so much that we'd like to commission you to do a little five part series instead of just the one image now we want you to do five so I said okay brilliant great something to do with ⁓ it know but it was just it was so so lucky that that came along when it did because as I said Danielle: Amazing. I said ten. I said ten. I said I said twenty. Hzael Coonagh: I had the time to do it. I was able to dedicate every minute that I had to it. It was a really exciting time. really well, obviously it was a really awful time as well, but it was just that was an exciting part of it and an exciting distraction from it all. So I was really able to just throw myself into it and make the pieces. So I mainly did self portraits, but then I got a friend of mine, Marr, who is an incredible mover. dancer, just beautiful person. And I was able to ⁓ manage to get into a studio and shoot with them for a bit too. So, because I've done self portraits before, I've continued to do them, but there is a limit with how many I want out there. I don't want it just to be all me. So I remember thinking I need somebody else in this series of counter-speeming. So Mark came in and they were fantastic. So yeah, that all came together really nicely. And then a couple months on, I think that all happened around summertime. Then when it came up to the winter solstice, they had had this idea where they wanted to take the project a little bit further, take some of the artists work and then project them onto different kind of notable places. So because mine was inspired by the Phoenix Park, they asked if they could project my work onto the Wellington monument. which was just like, I was like, I suppose. Like I remember when they rang me up and asked me if I would be okay with that. And I was, I was so in the moment, I was so sort of shocked and obviously elated that I was almost afraid to answer just in case I accidentally said no or something. You know what I mean? I was just like, and still to this day, Danielle: Okay. Hzael Coonagh: They were doing kind of a test projection, but because the Monument, obviously the composition of it didn't match the composition of the work. The work I was doing was all kind of A sizes. The Wellington Monument obviously is very, very thin and tall, but they had gotten a great animator and technicians together where they had taken the work and they had kind of re-jigged it and animated it. So it was kind of moving together within that kind of composition, really, really beautifully. Danielle: Mm. Hzael Coonagh: and they asked me to come along for the kind of test projection the day before they were launching it. And I remember walking in the North Gate of the Phoenix Park and you can see it from there. It's pitch black at the time. And I look across and I just see my work lit up on the Wellington Monument. And it was just, it was so surreal. It was like something out of like a manga film or something like that. don't know how else to explain it. Just. It was just so, so strange. Danielle: like the the d Dublin equivalent of Times Square, isn't it? Hzael Coonagh: Yeah, it was like especially during that time. It was just such a it was so incredible like I remember leaving that whole shoot and Like skipping on my way home. I was so happy just skipping in the dark by myself. Just like this is brilliant and so yeah, that was I mean Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. actually remember seeing it online only because it wasn't within my 5k radius, you know. And I saw pictures, yeah, and I remember thinking, ⁓ the world is still alive out there. It kind of connected, you know, it kind of connected because you're stuck in your your own little bubble of your own people and then you you know all of the you know the news stream kind of going on and then your own 5K and I just remember seeing it and going, Hzael Coonagh: Brian Taylor. Right. ⁓ that's lovely. Yeah. Danielle: ⁓ it lives on, there's creativity happening, it's fantastic to see that. ⁓ and I it's it's just I wonder, you know, the opportunities and the I suppose at the time it was a it was so obviously seen that creativity was and is a great thing for people, for you know, for society, for us to kind of see that in our public spaces. do you think that that that ⁓ those types of opportunities are still there ⁓ for visual artists. Hzael Coonagh: That's a good question. mean, they're hard to come by. They're out there, I think, but they're not roaring at you in the face. You have to seek them out. That's something that I'm kind getting to grips with more and more. The more I'm going from sort of a commercial editorial practice into fine art, which I would say I'm like fully into the fine art practice now, or visual arts practice. Yeah, it's a... Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Mm. Hzael Coonagh: real transition to make that. But part of it is, I mean, working as an editorial or a commercial photographer, you you're getting hired by agencies, companies, publications, and doing the work, getting paid. But as an artist, it's just, obviously it's not the same kind of thing. So you have to look for funding opportunities, open calls, residencies, you know, it's just, a different kind of world, different. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm. Hzael Coonagh: different checklists that you need to be looking at. So yeah, there are still opportunities there, but there always feels like there could be more, you know? Like that was such an incredible opportunity during lockdown, but I haven't met one just quite like it since then. But they are out there, but yeah, we could always use more. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Here's a call to our national broadcaster to kind of do something again. But it 'cause it kinda begs the question why are we, you know, only doing these ⁓ in times of like, you know, crisis? Like, you know, why can't we actually ⁓ you know, look at more opportunities for visual artists in the public realm, you know? ⁓ and it's funny because we're I ⁓ the one of the podcasts spoke to Sarah Bracken Soper and she ⁓ was saying kind of the same thing, she has you know She's constantly applying for ⁓ different kinds of grants and opportunities for her work. And you know, she I think she said she had applied for something like ⁓ fourteen funding calls and she was kinda, you know, only getting towards three, you know, she was rejected for the rest and she was s on a second panel for the for three and you know, so the funnel is quite tight as well and and th you know, those opportunities are difficult to come by and I suppose you have the safety net of maybe returning to commercial work and doing some editorial work should the need arise, but I get from you that you're saying now your your practice is fully in the visual arts space so you're kinda really kind of pursuing ⁓ growth in that area. Would that be right? Hzael Coonagh: Yeah, I think so. ⁓ It's a decision that was not made easily. And that's not to say, you know, a commercial job came calling, I thought it really fit my values and all of that, but I would say absolutely not or anything ⁓ like that door is never fully closed. But I think to kind of reach the full potential that you may want to reach in a particular practice or area, you just have to dedicate yourself fully to it, you know. ⁓ Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: So that's what I'm doing. Certainly I can empathize with what Sarah's gone through with the applications and grants and funding and all of that. It is tough. really, really competitive. Coming from a non-fine art background I think is sort of tricky as well. Writing is a whole other avenue and skill that you have to learn if you want to be successful in those areas. So I actually did a writing course recently with the RHA with Aidan Kelly Murphy. It was a two day workshop, got a master class in how to write your bio, your artist statement, apply for funding and it was like phenomenally helpful. Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Hzael Coonagh: was like the best best money I was spent in a long time it really really was fantastic it was really useful but yeah that just that gave me a basis at least to work from because before then I just really had no idea where to start you know and as I said it's a whole other skill so yeah I think if you're going into the fine art world it's something you have to be prepared for Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: takes practice, it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of tough skin because there's lot of rejections. So that's just the way it is. But when I started applying for funding, I think I started to apply about five years ago, five or six, and again at the time I thought, this should be fine, I've been knocking around a bit, maybe it'll be alright. ⁓ And then it was just no, no, no, no, no. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Hzael Coonagh: Okay, okay, okay, I get it, get it. But you just have to keep going, you know? You can't let it get you down. And you can't take it personally either. Something that I don't, because at the end of day, it's... I think a little bit through, and you might share this with me, given that we both worked together in teaching. Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm. Hzael Coonagh: sort of the same when you're grading a paper you might have a stack to get through and you need to get through them and there's nothing else coming into your adjudication other than the work that's in front of you and that's it. It's not about the person or anything like that nor should it ever be. But yeah a few more opportunities, bit more funding would be great. More is always welcome. Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But it's interesting that you don't really know how you got the Orti, you know, nod essentially. You don't know where the name your name was thrown into some mix at some point. ⁓ but it was ultimately from self promotion, you know. So maybe, you know, ⁓ having that that first initial piece on Instagram, someone saw it and then your name was thrown into a mix or whatever w however it happened. But it's increasingly becoming with all creatives Hzael Coonagh: Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: that they need to not only be good at the at the the subject matter or the the area where they're working, but they need to be almost like entrepreneurial. They need to be an influencer, dare I say that word. But you know what I mean? They need to be a promoter, a marketer, a performer, ⁓ you know, ⁓ to camera, ⁓ which really doesn't kind of come naturally to most kind of creatives who like to like sit behind the work and just get it done. and I I I fear that it's kinda, you know i that I ⁓ that that that is is where, you know, that's the that's the the the all of that kind of hoopla if you'd like to call it is what gets people the big likes and the h you know, the h kind of lots of followers. But actually it's the people that don't have that. They don't have that specter of social media followers. They're the ones doing the really, really good work and and maybe some of them their practices are getting kinda drowned out or it's more difficult for them. Hzael Coonagh: Mm-hmm. Danielle: to kinda break through, particularly on ⁓ platforms like Instagram. ⁓ what are your thoughts on that kinda whole self promotion kind of piece? Hzael Coonagh: I'm kind of over it in a way. Instagram and all that, it's just rotten. A person that I'm friendly with, they're an artist, they live in Munich. I kind of found them through, they did self-portrait work as well a couple of years back, found them, Sebastian. Danielle: Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: They were doing a little kind of live of I'm working, you know, hop on. I'd never really done that. So I hopped on and just was like just in the comments go, hello. And they were saying, you know, it's oh, my God, I haven't seen you in ages or, know, because we used to comment a bit more and like back when they felt like there was a bit more of a community aspect, you know, you would actually get to know people like that. And again, I've never met this person in the flesh, but I do feel like, you know, they're a little bit of a an acquaintance or a buddy within creativity in the world. who supported each other a little bit online and that. And they were saying on their live, like, ⁓ it's so good to see you. know, isn't that crazy? Like how different things are on Instagram now. It feels like it's just algorithms. And back when we first started seeing each other's work, it felt like there was a bit more of a community aspect to it. But like any semblance of a community aspect is long gone in my eyes. Like it's not there anymore. It's just a money making machine. And I know it's kind of. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: It needs to be done but I'm definitely not feeling the pressure to post there as much as I used to. So anyone that maybe has followed me for a while there might notice that over the while. Partially that's because of work that I do now. There's no way you could be posting there every day. Like my hands don't work that fast. Danielle: Mm. Hzael Coonagh: this is not like i remember when i started doing i kind of did try to keep up with my regular kind of posting schedule which would have been probably every other day but there was just there's no way absolutely no way ⁓ and then i started to realize well you know there's not really i don't see the point in it like i'd rather take my time and just curate a piece and be really happy with it and put out one every couple of weeks or every couple of months and and do it that way Danielle: Mm-hmm. Hzael Coonagh: just not worry about it so much anymore. Like I used to worry about the likes and the followers and all that. But I found at least in the kind of area of the creative industry that I found myself in now, it seems to me that following, followings and likes and things like that isn't really as important. I think what's more important is what's on your CV. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Hzael Coonagh: At that's how it seems to be. I know it's going to be different in like commercial sectors and things like that, but it seems to me in fine art, the people who've been successful in say, getting successful grant applications and things like that, like, know, because I have to do my research and see who's getting, what kind of work is being awarded to different people. A lot of them don't have massive followings, but they're doing really, really well and are really successful artists. So in a way, just kind of seeing that and realizing that. ⁓ took the pressure off of me and I thought, yeah, you know what? They don't have to do it all the time and feed the beast every single day and they're doing great. So maybe we don't all have to do it. But I know that I understand that there is a pressure to do it, of course. It's tough. But I just, I've kind of let go of it now at this stage. Danielle: And I think it's just like an it's an echo chamber all of its own, isn't it? You know, you post something nice, everyone, you know, some p a piece of work, ⁓ you get a load of people that like your work saying that's great and putting fire emojis under your work. Like, what's the point? You know. It's kinda yeah, it's not it's not rainy. Hzael Coonagh: That can be very nice and it's looking for it. I'll get that as well. I think the main thing I'm using Instagram for now is I'm just posting pictures of my cat and my stories. about it. It's better than anything else anyway. Danielle: So we come full circle and that's what the internet was ⁓ invented for, wasn't it? Sharing cat memes. We're back there. Hzael Coonagh: Exactly, that's what it's for. Have you seen any of my cat pictures? Have you seen this guy? I mean, he's amazing. He's sweet. I wish he was around right now and I could get him in, but he's like shading under a tree somewhere right now trying to keep cool. Danielle: I have, I have, I have, yes. Definitely. We'll add a picture into the pot, we'll we'll pop it has to be done. But then I suppose in terms of feeding the beast, the beast that we dare not name, the AI beast, what are your thoughts on, you know, and not to turn this into another conversation about AI because I just can't abide that, but what are your thoughts on AI in terms of photography and the use of j AI generated imagery? Hzael Coonagh: ⁓ yeah, you've got so many. I mean it's probably no surprise that I'm not a fan. I just don't think it looks very nice. I don't think it has a soul. I think it's just, you know, copying the work of other people, actual people, which feels really gross and sneaky and kind of intrusive, you know. And I also don't like that a lot of it is just trying to... Danielle: Mm. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: trick people into thinking it's a real photograph. It's not coming across as genuine. I know some AI art now, and again, some of it's very obvious that it's AI art, but it's not to everybody. And some of it is labeled as AI art, but a lot of it isn't. you can kind of, and I've been caught out with it a couple of times myself, where it takes me a second, then I go, oh, wait a minute, no, that hand's a bit funny, or whatever it might be. If you're trying to kind of Danielle: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. ⁓ I know. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: sneakily get this in and try to pass it off as something that isn't. That's just, it just doesn't feel good. So yeah, I don't like it. Danielle: Yeah. I w I I kinda wonder like, you know, i it's kinda like the i i if you use AI to write your you know, write for you, you're kinda dulling your ability to write, right? You know, you're kinda ⁓ that the inherent skill with you know, put articulating sentences, putting the thoughts together, ⁓ contrasting arguments, you know, you're kinda dulling all of those senses by letting AI do the writing for you. Likewise with kind of creative pursuits, you're you know, there's I don't think AI is there yet in terms of of making any kind of, you know, comparison to a you know, ⁓ a professional piece of design work. But I kind of feel like it's kind of almost dulling down people's taste. Do you know what I mean? Like so you kinda you'd look at artwork you look at ⁓ any type of visual arts, photography, any type of creative work, and you'd start to kinda have an opinion based on having s maybe having seen something else, comparing, contrasting in your in your mind and kind of saying, I like how this is ⁓ this but it maybe it should be a little bit more that or you know, so this kind of critique that you kind of internal dialogue you had in your head, which kind of told you, which kinda happens quite quickly, but tells you whether or not you just even like something. or you know, you kinda you know, understand it. I think that piece, that that that ability, that discernment is is being dulled by AI in a number of different ways across all our creative pursuits, from writing to listening, you know, there's lots of AI music f ⁓ and and straight into the kind of arts and and creative space too. I just like I think ultimately, you know, your ability to like put things together ⁓ and your taste is gonna become so so important. And I think it's a bit of a kind of a bit of a tragedy to be allowing that to, you know, move into the kind of AI generated world, you know. 'Cause like the whole point of making is the process, like all the the steps and all of those considerations, those really kind of tiny considerations that you're making when you're kind of getting someone to pose in the initial stages or you know, taking a variety of different shots, and then you're kind of considering different angles and you know, and then your templates and all that that consideration slowly over time ⁓ moves the work into what it becomes. And without all of those moments. Of human kind of interaction, the work is never gonna get there. You know what I mean? Like so I just yeah. Hzael Coonagh: Yeah, it certainly seems that way. mean, like you said, the process is really such an integral part, obviously. But at the end of the day, any kind of creative work, it's made by a human, so therefore it is made with a soul in it. And machines just don't have souls, not yet. So I think, yeah, AI for me, it seems as if it can only ever be some kind of a generic. Danielle: Yeah. ⁓ huh. Hzael Coonagh: homogenized version of everything that's already come before. Danielle: Yeah, and I think that kinda, you know, the photographic tr truth and what we said at the start with the being the the time capsule, you know, it's is you're right, it's disingenuous, isn't it? It's not a it's not a moment in time. Like, you know, if it's gonna be if it's gonna be a drawing, be a drawing, you know, that kind of way being a photo like trying to be a photograph of a moment in time that never existed to begin with is so disingenuous, you know. Hzael Coonagh: yeah, it's bizarre, so strange. yeah, yeah, it is, it's very strange, especially when they're trying to, you know, you see like these ads where they're trying to pull out the heartstrings in some way, and it might be, it might not just be a photograph, might be like a video, it's like, what are you doing? it's so rank. like, what are you trying to do here? like, this is... Danielle: Ha ha ha. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: Now it feels quite low when they really tried to put the iron strings in that, you know. Danielle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So do you want to talk about maybe one project particularly and maybe t step us through the stages of that project from the the beginning to the end? Hzael Coonagh: Right, yeah, sure, I can do that. Let's see now. So as far as projects go, the work that I've been producing in the last couple of years, it's generally not so much series based and it's usually individual images. Some of those images, obviously similar themes are brought forth. So there's probably, you know, different kind of groups and sets of images, but none of them are intentionally made into series works. That is something that I'm working on developing now. So I'm working on two different series of work at the moment. So I won't get into those because they're still kind of, you know, they're in their infancy. But I suppose if I want to maybe just take you through how I made maybe one piece of work that could be useful to someone. I don't know. So I suppose let's take it through, I'm just gonna bring it up on my screen because obviously I know what looks like but unless it's right in front of me, I don't tend to describe it quite as well. But it's called Halfway to Nowhere and I made it last year. Let me grab it here. Danielle: Yeah, totally. Hzael Coonagh: Okay. So halfway to nowhere is an extension of a team that I've been working on to do with the housing crisis in Ireland. So I was lucky enough to get a house about two years ago in Kildare. Thank you very much. Thank you very, much. Not an easy thing to do. And like most people, I was renting for many, years beforehand and felt like the idea of getting a house was just kind of an impossible task. Danielle: Congratulations. Hzael Coonagh: I had a lot of friends give us good advice and we worked very hard, we saved up and we got lucky, which seems to be how people get houses these days. There has to be some luck involved. But through the process of trying to find one, I was just continuously disappointed with how difficult the system is and how difficult it is, particularly for people that work in a freelance capacity or perhaps people that are maybe trying to do it as a single person. ⁓ I'm a freelance person but I had a partner at least to help which makes a big difference. But if you're a single person you're still entitled to a house you know especially you might be a very hard-working single person you should be allowed to have your own space. I think it's something that everybody is entitled to and when we did finally get our house and move in and settle into having our own space for the first time. Like it was just so much better than I could have ever imagined. it just kind of it annoyed me in a way as well because I thought this is like something that everyone should have access to. It shouldn't be this almost impossible thing to reach for us. And it's an avoidable issue. But, you know, it's just it's not being dealt with correctly. So I had made work surrounding the state of the housing crisis and then after we moved out here, as much as I absolutely love my house, as I've said, I love living here. I'm so lucky to have a house. I love having my own space. love having this is a room in my house that I used to work in, which is fantastic that I have a dedicated workspace now. But I still was a little bit annoyed that I had to move out of Dublin. because I didn't want to move out Dublin. That's where I grew up, that's where all my family and friends are, that's where if I do need to go into work somewhere, that's where it tends to be. And I was a bit resentful that I was kind of forced out of it. So Halfway to Nowhere is basically about that. It's sort of a surrealist take on that whole Irish adage of you just have to, the government says you just have to roll up your sleeves and go to work and work hard and don't have any avocado toast and you'll be able to get a house too. But the only way that was possible for me was by moving out of my home in a way. Now, again, very, very grateful to have the house I'm in. I'm not that far from Dublin, so it's not the end of the world or anything. But, you know, I still just don't think it was a. ⁓ It's not how I imagined things would go, I suppose. So that's what this piece is about. And I wanted to do something reflecting my frustrations with that. And. As well as that, I wanted to do some work that was a bit more locational. So a lot of the work I had done prior to this was typically in very minimal kind of spaces. It may have been just like a blank wall, for instance, or a black color or something a little tighter in. hadn't, noticed that after I looked at sort of my portfolio at the time, there was very little locational work. So I really wanted to bring in something a little bit more grand. And I had this picture taken from Kerry, that I'd taken prior to making this image. And so the secret, I suppose, if you like, behind this image is that it's not one entire photograph, it's two. So the background is one image and then the wall that I'm sitting on, which is me, is taken out my back garden here in Selbridge. So it's pieced together kind of in a collage way. I think that helps add to the kind of surrealist quality to it because typically with photography, if you have that level of distance in a shot, something will be out of focus. But in this image, everything is sharp all the way through. And so that was done because it's two separate images put together. And that's what helps with that kind of level of clarity, which I think brings maybe a little bit more of a painterly aspect to it as well, which I really enjoyed that kind of result. So. The way I made this was I built that main house that's over the head with the yellow facade and that sort of the navy roof. I made that out of cardboard and sat on my back wall with the tripod, positioned the shovel and just tried to balance it on my head and get the right pose. Because I kind of, like I know I said with other images, I kind of leave the door open for different avenues. With this, I was pretty sure I wanted a pose where I was sitting on the wall. I was rolling up a sleeve and that was basically it. So it took a while to get that. Usually when you're shooting self portraits with your camera on a tripod on a timer, can, you know, it takes a long time to get it right. Especially if you're trying to bounce like a cardboard box in your head and get the light right and everything else. And like, I can only imagine what the neighbors were thinking, you know, like I'd just moved into the house pretty much and they're like, ⁓ what was that? But ⁓ well. Danielle: Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: used to it now, I'm sure they're very nice. But yeah, that got shot and then at the time I wasn't sure what the background was going to be. I knew I was going to replace the background because in reality that wall just has another wall behind it. We have like a double wall in our back garden. So obviously there was some land dispute at some point and somebody put up a wall and somebody was supposed to take down a wall and they didn't. Anyway, made use of it. So I cut out the extra wall that's kind of behind that short wall and just had a blank space and I played around a bit with what kind of backdrop to put in. Initially I'd put in this kind of an abstract kind of, it was like a macro shot of little pieces of white ⁓ kind of sparkle material and water and it was all kind of snowy and very surreal like and it made the image a lot more kind of dreamy. which was an interesting effect, but it just wasn't quite what I wanted. And then I thought a landscape would be great. Again, that locational kind of aspect kept coming back to me. I don't shoot a lot of landscapes, but then I went back and I'd taken a trip to Kerry with my partner and his family. And I'd found that image and thought, ⁓ that's perfect. It brings the whole idea together. It brings it full circle. And it brings that kind of aspect of, you know, moving to the middle of nowhere, which is what a lot of people have to do. And that that sense of isolation and space and also that very Irish kind of sensibility. So once I put that in the back, I was like, fantastic. That works really, really nicely. And so I did that. And then the other thing that changed in the layout was the extra two houses on either side. I'd been researching the kind of color use in. Irish streets in rural areas, you know, a of them use a lot of colourful kind of paint on different aspects of the house, whether it's the door, the window ledge, you know, whatever. And I couldn't quite decide on one. And I thought it would be great to add a little bit more variety and colour and reference those kinds of colour choices that people make in kind of traditional Irish areas. So I thought having more of like a little street would be kind of interesting to add another aspect on top of that. And then I think the last change I made before I printed it was just to have the two houses on the side start to sort of collapse and kind of start to fall apart. Something about that kind of unsteady kind of aspect, think, again, just ⁓ fed into the narrative that I was trying to ⁓ show a little bit more. So, you know, little by little, you can kind of find ways to add to whatever story you're trying to tell through different phases of the work. And then of course the last phase is you print it. This was printed fairly large on the canvas, then it was stretched and then it was stitched into over a period of about a week, I'd say. Danielle: those types of of of ⁓ pieces that you do that have quite quite a like a a big message really do you where do you envisage that they're going to kind of go? Do you know what I mean when you're making them is it that you're trying to make a statement and then you're maybe going to put it into ⁓ an exhibition of some sort or is there an is there a thought about how the viewer will get to see this work? Hzael Coonagh: Yeah, so that one was made specifically for an exhibition. That was for, there's a show called The Art Riddler, which, have you heard of The Art Riddler, Yes, Yeah, you were there, you were there. Yeah, so The Art Riddler is a serious art lover who a couple years ago started putting on a big art competition where you enter a work and if it gets through, Danielle: have, yes, I was there this year. Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: puts on an exhibition with your work where you can get 100 % of any sales that you might make. goes on over a weekend usually. It's grown from I think the first one had maybe 40 artists involved. was in the first one I've been in each one each year luckily and then the most recent one had like over 100 artists. So this one, this image that I made, happy to know where it was for last year's show and I think a show like that Danielle: Mm. Hzael Coonagh: The big part of the Art Riddler show, suppose the big draw is that one person gets 100,000 euro. That's like a big prize that one person gets. So that's a good bit of motivation to be a part of a show like that, to potentially win the chance to win something like that. But also if you make something that feels true to you and that other people connect with, then hopefully you sell your work and it's very unusual that you will keep 100 % of the sale, which in the Art Riddler show you do. So it's just a good motivator to try and push yourself. And I find that each year I try to do something a little bit kind of bigger and better in some sense. So I knew that that's where that piece would hopefully end up. And luckily it did and it sold and went down well. Danielle: And you had two pieces in this year's Art Riddler, didn't you? Yeah. Hzael Coonagh: Yes, good, two pieces. Yeah, it came around a little bit quicker this year. Usually it's in sort of October, November. So it was funny, we were all there in like our summer clothes, which was really strange. We're all usually like in our coats and stuff. But yeah, it was really, really nice. But I had two pieces in this year. One was to do, well, they're both kind of a little bit separately to do with the series that I'm working on at the moment. So I'm starting to take my kind of stitch work and my conceptual work in a little bit of a different direction, whereas typically it would be quite representational, the motifs that I would stitch into the work. I'm now taking it in a bit of a direction where it's being used more so like a code, where it's representing kind of pieces of time, measurements of time or emotion and things like that. It's all connected to time and memory and a little bit about what we spoke earlier about how photography and embroidery are inherently linked to time and memory. That's something that kept coming back to me. So I've decided to kind of explore that basic idea a little bit further. Because I think that's just what lies at the root of everything that I've been doing. So that was one piece that was called ⁓ Recollection Data. I almost forget the name of my own piece. Yeah, that's not right. It's the heat. It's the heat I Danielle: It must be said that it's a it's spectacularly hot day in Dublin here. We never really have heat that's touching the thirty degrees now at this point, so Hzael Coonagh: I'm outing. I don't even know. ⁓ we can't have our fans on because of the sound. We're dedicated podcasters. ⁓ no. Anyway. Danielle: Ha ha ha But it I did I I saw your work there and I did feel like it it's definitely ⁓ feels like a new departure and and and you know, your your a new visual language almost that you're kinda ⁓ moving towards with the the the two pieces that you had in in the Art Riddler show. It was really interesting to see your work kinda ⁓ still produce something fresh and different, but ⁓ all of a sudden have have almost a different voice to it. ⁓ but it really reminded me when you were talking at the start of this podcast the the structure and the calm, there's a calmness to you know the piece with the little crosses, ⁓ that one, that particular piece, there's such a calmness to that when you're when you're looking at it. yeah, but it's fabulous, fabulous new work. so what's next for ⁓ Hazel Kuna? Is there an exhibition or anything or is there I think you got some funding, is that right? Or a an award? Yeah Hzael Coonagh: I did! I'm finally successful! Never give up. Yeah, so after ⁓ many years of failed funding applications, I finally was successful with one. ⁓ I recently was awarded the Arts Act grant from Kildare Arts Council, as well as their executive coaching grant, which I just started yesterday, which was fantastic. So... That's going to be funding a new project which is going to be taking on some of that new visual language that I've been developing. ⁓ Exploring that in full and making more kind of series based works. That's something that I really want to challenge myself to do. And then the other thing that I have coming up is an exhibition in November that's going to be curated by Ishmael Claxton called Alternative Methods. And that's going to be myself and three other female artists. Details are to be released close to the time. That's something that we've been working towards. each of us have been doing ⁓ studio visits to each other's respective workspaces. So I had the other artists and the shmale over to my little studio space here in Selbridge last month, which was really, really nice. So yeah, we'll be working on that. That will be coming out soon. And then the other project for Kildare Arts Council as well. Danielle: Amazing. And a final question for me, and I'll let you go and enjoy the sunshine. ⁓ so this podcast, as you know, is called Rough Drafts. And I'm just wondering, is there any kind of rough draft in your practice? Is there anything that you'd love to try? Something maybe it's maybe it's a client, maybe it's a piece of work, maybe it's a type of work or a way of working. Is there anything that you can mention, of course, ⁓ that you'd love to kind of maybe explore a little bit further? Hzael Coonagh: ⁓ God, there's so many things, so many. I've always wanted to make a music video. I've always, always loved, loved, loved music videos. Back in the day, MTV used to have this thing of like the making of music videos. You remember that? I was just obsessed with that. I've seen the behind the scenes and all that. So I've done, I mean, very kind of experimental music videos for... Danielle: ⁓ amazing. Mm. Yeah, I do. I love to yeah. Hzael Coonagh: band called C-Fit many years back now at this stage which was all kind of close-up shots of coloured paint moving around and forming very abstract. Really fun to make but I would love to do something a little more ambitious. Music is my first love and you know if I get into listening to a song that resonates with me or is just catchy or whatever it is like I usually just can't help but have some kind of visual or narrative happen in my mind. So would love to explore that at some stage should the right opportunity arise. So that's definitely up there. I want to start doing woodwork. I want to make books. want to... There's so many things. There's so many things. As I said earlier, it's being creative and if you want to tackle an art form or something, it's just never been as accessible as it is right now. if there's something you want to try there is a youtube tutorial that exists for it and you can figure it out through trial and error you worse that can happen you fail and you don't tell anybody it's fine like or you you know you fail you learn something you try again and you improve and that's like the best feeling in the world because you know adding more skills to your inventory is it's one of my favorite things to do if you can manage it it just i don't know Danielle: Yeah. Mm. Hzael Coonagh: makes life better. I just love making things and finding new ways to make new things and learning new skills. It's just my favourite thing in the world. Danielle: Great. Thank you so much, Hazel. It's been wonderful. I I want to wish you the very best of luck with the Arts Award and the new visual language development ⁓ and the the video for your new music video that you're going to create. But it's been a joy and your work is is beautiful. ⁓ If ever you get a chance to go see the work in real life, it's just Hzael Coonagh: Thank you. Yeah. Danielle: Stunning so please make sure you do get to her exhibition. ⁓ all the details we'll link into this episode for ⁓ the the the it was it November you said? November exhibition? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll do that. But thank you so much. Thank you. Hzael Coonagh: Humber, yes, coming soon. Thank you, Danielle. Thank you for having me. Danielle: Alrighty. Okay, we're done. Hzael Coonagh: We're done.