Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #899 Social Media, Sleep Patterns, Toddlers & Tech

Transcript

#899 Social Media, Sleep Patterns, Toddlers & Tech · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Now, Hello and welcome to the Happy Family's Podcast. My
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: name's doctor Justin Colson. I'm here with my wife from
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Under our six Kids, Miss Happy Families, Kylie Coulson. For
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: one of my favorite episodes of the podcast and the
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: one that Kylie gets more excited about each month than
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: any other podcast. You're smiling at me.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Like for all the wrong reasons.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: What do you mean, what do you get excited about
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: this podcast for? It's the doctor's desk excite. How would
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: you describe it? Don't answer that question. We have three
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: studies to talk about today, and they're fun studies. They're
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: the kind of studies that get people opinionated, I think
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: is the right word. We're going to talk about teenagers
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: and their mental health when it comes to screens. We're
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: going to talk about toddlers and their problematic media use
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: when it comes to screens. And then we're going to
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: talk about teenagers in love and what it's doing to
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: the their sleep and their well being. And we'll tell
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: you why we discourage your kids from having any kind
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: of romantic relationship. Until I've finished high school. And it
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: ties in so well with the research. Where do you
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: want to start, Kylie?
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Well, you sent me through some data which is just
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: blowing my mind.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Really new gallup seas just pause here? Are you telling
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: me that the doctor's desk is actually blowing your mind?
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: It always blows my mind. It doesn't mean I'm excited
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: By the way, for those of you who knew to
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the podcast, once a month we go through the later
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: science as it relates to parenting. That's what we're doing here.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: So what's the data say that blew your mind? Honeybun?
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: It shows that US teenagers spend an average of four
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: point eight hours per day using social media.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, just stop there. This is really important. We're not
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: talking about other screen time. We're speaking specifically about social media.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Let's round it up four point eight let's call it
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: five hours per day on social media.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: So kids are at school for six yeah hours make
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: out the lunch breaks, six hours at school. This is huge.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so five hours a day and they've still got
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: to watch TV, do homework, play video games, and do
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff as well. So a huge
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: amount of screen time.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: But then it goes on to say that nearly thirty
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: percent of teenagers surveyed spent upwards of six hours.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Huge, huge numbers. So what do you think they're doing?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: If you were to guess what they're doing, where would
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: you point.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: I think for a lot of them, there is a
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: huge level of communication going on using their social platform.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, so instruments snap are huge for communication and sharing
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: ideas and things with one another.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: But I would suggest that the majority of their time
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: would be scrolling.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the two most popular platforms YouTube and TikTok
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: YouTube and TikTok.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I was actually just talking to a handful of girls
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: the other day in relation to their school is get
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: away and these kids they're not up for partying at
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: night or anything like that. So one of the girls
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: would go to the other girls room and she said
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: she was literally on TV watching the infomercials, literally just
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: one advertisement after the other. Like, our kids are just
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: happy to be consumers of content, regardless of what the
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: content is.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So this this is the really interesting for me.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: In this research that came out of Gallop, they found
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: that kids that the main reason that they're using their
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: screens is are you ready for it?
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Boredom.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Boredom. Yeah, and this is why I keep on saying
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: that it's not good for kids to be bored. Like
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: in the Mummy blogger sphere and all other instagram and
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: even a lot of parenting experts, they are constantly saying, Yeah,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: it's good for kids to be bored because they're going
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: to get creative and because they're going to discover stuff.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: And it's like, no, they're not. They're going to sit
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: on their screens. They're going to stir at social media
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  Speaker 1: for five or six hours a day, which is what
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: this research is showing. We've got to we've got to
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: be really mindful of that. Now, the research is looking
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: at mental health problems and screen use, and this is
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: where it gets really provocative. Okay, so there is a
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: relationship in this data highlighting that higher levels of screen
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: use are associated with mental health problems. But and I
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: can't emphasize this enough. This is something that I've been
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: so conflicted by this over the years, and I'm starting
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: to firm up my opinion and ironically it's going counter
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: to the prevailing opinion, which often happens with me. But
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: the reason for it is this social media critics are
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: all about saying screens are damaging our kids. And there's
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: no doubt that some kids truly are being harmed by
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: what's going on with screens and social media use. But
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: the data shows that the effects of this are really small,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: particularly in relation to the large decline in mental health
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: over the last couple of decades. Like, it's a genuinely
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: small decline. And also there's a difference between correlation and causation,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: which is super important to highlight.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Hang on, you're saying that there's been a massive decline
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: in mental health.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Sorry, okay, okay, mental illness is on the way up.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you pick that up. I hear so many,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: even medical professionals, they say, oh, yeah, yeah, the problem
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: was mental health. No, the problem is not mental health.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: The problem is mental illness or a lack of mental health.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Please don't say that somebody's issue is mental health. That's
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: not the issue. The issue is mental illness or a
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: lack of mental health.
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  Speaker 2: So there's been a decline in mental health, which means
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: an increase in mental illness.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Correct, that's exactly right. Now, they are different things. You
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: can actually have high levels of mental illness and still
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: be functioning reasonably well and have high levels of well
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: being at the same time, in the same way that
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: you can have high levels of grief but still have
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: moments of joy, delight, and happiness. Okay, so two things
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: can be true at once. Anyway, that's a kind of
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: a side note. What's really driving the So I've got
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: a friend. His name is Andy Shapulski works at Oxford
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: at the Institute of the Oxford Internet Institute, and Andy
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Shappowski has famously said that the amount of time you
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: spend on screen means, including social media, matters less for
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: your well being than how many potatoes you eat each week,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: which is quite a provocative thing to say. In other words,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: your well being is affected more by the potatoes you
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: eat and how much social media time you're getting. And
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: what he's really highlighting here is something that I think
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: is really important, and this research I think supports this.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Social media in and of itself may or may not
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: be a problem. But if kids are living whole and
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: balanced lives, if they're getting outside, moving their bodies, well,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: if they're living whole.
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  Speaker 2: And balanced lives, they don't have six hours to sit
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  Speaker 2: on a screen.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: They probably don't. That's right, they're going to be getting
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: enough sleep, and they're going to be spending time with
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: their friends and spending time in a relationship. I think
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: that the decline in well being for our children is
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: actually related more to a lack of physical activity, a
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: lack of time in nature, a lack of play, and
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: increased control by parents, increased expectations by parents that the
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: kids have got to be amazing to me, that's what
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: it comes down to. Support to why I'm saying it.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Have listened to this. This is from the Gallop poll
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: that was run with the Institute for Family Studies in
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: the United States. Children they found who exhibit greater self control,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: So that's a personality characteristic. If you've go kids who
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: are more conscientious. In other words, children who are more
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: conscientious or have greater self control, and or who live
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: with their parents who restrict screen time and supervise them
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  Speaker 1: and have a strong relationship with them spend a whole
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: lot less time on social media than those without these characteristics.
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  Speaker 1: They found that, for example, adolescence who exhibit high levels
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: of conscientiousness spend on average about one point two hours
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  Speaker 1: less per day on social media than those scoring low
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: on conscientiousness, and if they're living with a parent who
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: agrees or strongly agrees that he or she should restrict
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: screen time, then the adolescent reports one point seven few
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: hours on average of social media use compared to adolescents
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: whose parents don't restrict screen time. In other words, we're
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: talking about up to three hours with conscientious Kids whose
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: parents are involved in their lives and are saying, hey,
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: we need to keep an eye in your screen time,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: they're going to do better. Youth who report a stronger
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: and more loving relationship with their caregivers and spend less
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: time unsupervised also use social media less frequently, and guess
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: why their mental health is better. So I think all
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: of this stuff kind of combines to say, live healthy,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: happy lives, and screens can play a part in your
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: life and you'll be okay. But if you're not doing well,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: screens are only going to amplify and magnify that challenge.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: So studying number two, four hundred and thirty five parents
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: actually participated in this study.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this one is looking at toddlers and their screens.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Let's go through this one fairly quickly, because well, we've
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: talked too long about the first one, and I really
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: want to get to the third one because it's fun. Basically,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Jane Shawcroft, she's at the University of California Davis. She
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: studies how we can leverage media and technology for emotional health.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: And she's got all these parents looking at their kids
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: at two and a half, three and a half, and
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: four and a half. So it's a two year study
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  Speaker 1: looking at their TV use and their tablet use. Study
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  Speaker 1: was published in technol Your Minor Behavior, and what they
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: basically found is that the overwhelming majority of parents, sixty
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: four percent of parents have some sort of rule about
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: how much TV time their kids get, and most of them,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: about twenty two percent, are saying yet less than an
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: hour day is ideal for our two and a half
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  Speaker 1: year old.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: So this doesn't surprise me because on the podcast specifically
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: but kind of, I guess general speaking, you'll hear the
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: notion that less than two hours a day of screen
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: time is optimal for our kids growing up. So to
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: see that rule playing out in more than half the parents,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: that doesn't shock me at all.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: That yeah, and I'll even add with kids under five,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: less than an hour's ideal, so that's consistent with that.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: But This is the really interesting thing. Only forty percent
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: of parents that they had some sort of rule about
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: their kids use of tablets.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: So I am actually not surprised about that either. And
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: the reason I'm not surprised about it is because I
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: think most parents will acknowledge that a tablet or an
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: iPhone when we're out and about is the best distraction
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: for our kids. If we need our kids occupied, but
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: we have to have them in our space. You're out
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: at a restaurant, you're going shopping, you're at the dottres,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: all of those kinds of things. It's so easy to
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: give your child a screen which keeps them completely occupied.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: You know that they will be exactly where you left them.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: They're not moving, they're not going anywhere. You might not
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: even get a yes or a no from them because
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: they're so engrossed in what they're doing. So it doesn't
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: actually surprise me that parents don't kind of see this
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: as problematic because it's actually such a helpful tool.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so only ten percent of parents said that they
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: didn't allow their kids to have used a tablet, So
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: pretty much everyone's like, yeah, kids can use it, we
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: don't really have any rules for it. What the research
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: has found was that it takes time to really get results. Here,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: they found that from two and a half to three
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: and a half there was no real issue when it
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: came to problematic media, but by the time the kids
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: before and a half, there was a really really big increase.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: The more kids were allowed to use their screens, particularly tablets,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: but even the TV, the more likely it was that
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: there was going to be problematic media use. So a
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: couple of really simple lessons here. Number one, sometimes it
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: takes a while to figure out what social media or
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: tablets or screens generally TV what it's doing to our kids. Definitely, definitely.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: The second thing to say would be the rules about
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: TV and screens and tablets and things actually do matter,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Like as parents, we need to be across this with
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: our little kids, otherwise it could be unhealthy. And the
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: third rule would be just to be really intentional, Like
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: we're not saying don't put the kids in front of screens.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: We're saying be purposeful. No when you're doing it, know
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: why you're doing it, know what they're doing there, and
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: make sure that there are reasonable limits. Because the kids
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: need to live whole, balanced, full lives. They need to
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: be connected with you. They need to be playing, they
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: need to be outdoors in nature. It's almost the same
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: as what we were talking about before with the teenagers and
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: their social media use. So I got a careful for
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: you throw out my way.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: So we've got a two month old grandchild, ye, and
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: she has just in the last few weeks become very engaged.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: You've got great eye contact. She lights up when she
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: sees you walk in the room. And they've been away
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: for a few days and Chanelle has actually called so
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: that I can see the baby and talk to her.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: And I've watched as the screen's got closer and my
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: face is right there, her whole eyes light up, and
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: she kind of gets a little bit stiff and kicks
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: her legs and she's really excited. So we've got families
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: all around the world who are dealing with distance and
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: having the capacity to see your loved one's face on
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: a screen. How does that impact kids? I guess curiosity
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: as they grow in wanting to have access to screens.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: So they're definitely going to want to have screens because
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: they're familiar with them, but also they're excitatory and their
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: stimulatory OK, that's going to happen. I think it's really
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: important to remember this. That kind of contact is delightful
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: if it's the only contact you can get, But we
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: still want to keep screens still on minimum. We know
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: that screens are affecting babies and toddler's brains in ways
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: that are not healthy. That's the first thing. Secondly, on
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the Doctor's Desk podcast, maybe about nine months ago, we
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: did an episode where I talked about how kids were
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: either engaged in a face to face interaction with a
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: parent or they were engaged in a technology based interaction
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: face to face through the screens. And what the research
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: has found was that there was about twenty percent of
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: the brain lighting up and getting excited about the interaction
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: when it was on a screen, whereas one hundred percent
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: was going crazy when it was face to face. In
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: other words, you just can't beat the real thing.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Of course, but when the real thing's not there.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Well you take what you can get when the real
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: thing's on there, but you push for the real thing.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: I'm really missing us Number three is one that you're
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: obviously extremely excited about.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have a lot of time for it,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: but let's go.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: A new study published in The Behavioral Sleep Medicine Journal
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: has found that beginning a romantic relationship or going through
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: a breakup can impact poorly upon the sleep of adolescence.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: But it's suggesting particularly in younger adolescent females.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we have this feels.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Can I just say this feels a little bit from
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: the Journal of Dure.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: The journal, Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, because when you
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: are in a new relationship is very exciting and you
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: can't sleep, And when a relationship breaks up, you're very
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: sad and you can't sleep.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Like the dopamine hit. We get from connection, real deep connection.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Is you're someone's special, someone so addictive.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: We are wired to connect, and the younger these relationships start,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: the harder it is, I think.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania researchers found that adolescents can be impacted
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: emotionally and behaviorally, research suggesting issues like lowered self esteem,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: more mood swings, more alcohol, and substance abuse when kids
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: break up, when a relationship falls apart, and they're in
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: their teens, so they had it a little over seven
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: thousand middle and high school kids followed for around about
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: a year or thereabouts, and they basically looked at sleep duration, insomnia,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: romantic experiences, and they found that experiencing either the start
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: or the end of a relationship was associated with sleep
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: problems or a lack of sleep or both. Not, like
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: you said, not revelatory in any massive way, but are
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: reminded when you've got young kids, especially because they're using
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: their screens so much. They don't switch off. They're texting
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: each other at eight, at nine and ten, at eleven
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: and twelve o'clock at night, and they're doing everything they
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: can to be together during the relationship, and at the
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: end of the relationship, it really affects their well being.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: We have discouraged our kids from having relationships of any
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: kind of a romantic nature while they're at school. We
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: haven't always succeeded with that because we don't force our kids,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: but this is one of the reasons why it affects
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: well being so much.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Well. I think the thing that stood out to me
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: in this study was just the acknowledgment that younger adolescents
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: under fifteen years of age, this is bigger and harder
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: for them because they just there's so much going on
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: in their development at that point in time. So the
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: longer we can prolong those romantic relationships. I think, the
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: happier our kids going to be.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: We need to wrap it up there. We'll link to
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: these studies in our show notes so that you can
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: check them out for yourself if there's anything that sparked
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: some interest for you. The Happy Family's podcast is produced
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: executive producer. More information about making your family happy is
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: available at happy families dot com dot au