Latest / Leaders In Payments / Women Leaders in Payments: Kathleen Pierce Gilmore, SVP Global Head of Issuing Solutions at Visa | Episode 343

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Women Leaders in Payments: Kathleen Pierce Gilmore, SVP Global Head of Issuing Solutions at Visa | Episode 343 · Leaders In Payments

• 0:04
  Greg: Thank you for joining us during this special series running throughout the month of July, focused exclusively on women leaders and payments.
• 0:11
  Greg: We've got great content this month, focused on mentorship, career advice, getting out of your comfort zone, having your voice heard and much, much more.
• 0:19
  Greg: A special thanks to our contributing sponsors, stacks Payments, nuve and Map Advisors, and to our episode sponsors, nmi, dailypay, g&d and Ingenico.
• 0:31
  Greg: Hi everyone and welcome to the Leaders in Payments podcast.
• 0:35
  Greg: I'm Greg Myers, the host of the show, and today's special guest is Kathleen Pierce Gilmore, the SVP and Global Head of Issuing Solutions at Visa.
• 0:44
  Greg: Gers Gilmore, the SVP and Global Head of Issuing Solutions at Visa.
• 0:48
  Greg: Kathleen, thank you for being here.
• 0:49
  Greg: Welcome to the show and, more specifically, thank you for participating during Women Leaders in Payments Month.
• 0:52
  Kathleen: Thanks for having me.
• 0:53
  Kathleen: I'm thrilled to be here.
• 0:54
  Greg: Great, so tell our audience a little bit about yourself, maybe where you grew up, where you went to school, where you currently live, a few things like that.
• 1:01
  Kathleen: Sure.
• 1:01
  Kathleen: So I grew up in Las Vegas, nevada.
• 1:05
  Kathleen: That's where I was born, believe it or not, and I often tell the joke that I had a wonderful showgirl career until the age of 10 when I moved to San Diego.
• 1:15
  Kathleen: That's a total lie.
• 1:16
  Kathleen: I did not.
• 1:17
  Kathleen: I was on a showgirl Little Las Vegas humor.
• 1:20
  Greg: I moved to San.
• 1:20
  Kathleen: Diego when I was 10 and then lived there until I went to college, where I went to Northwestern in Illinois and you'll figure out very quickly, I'm very much a nerd so I went to Northwestern to study science and it really enjoyed the changing seasons and the cold weather that it's famous for.
• 1:39
  Kathleen: I now live in Bethesda, maryland, right outside DC.
• 1:43
  Kathleen: I've got five kids, three cats, two dogs Wow, I love running on the trails here, and we also have a house now in the Chesapeake Bay area and so we spend a lot of time there in the water, on the water.
• 1:59
  Kathleen: Just really love spending time outdoors in general.
• 2:01
  Kathleen: So that's a little bit about me.
• 2:04
  Greg: Great.
• 2:04
  Greg: Thank you for sharing that.
• 2:05
  Greg: So tell us about your role today and a little about what your group at Visa does.
• 2:10
  Kathleen: Sure, so I am part of what we call VAS Value Added Services and all of VAS encompasses a few different things.
• 2:20
  Kathleen: So we've got issuing solutions, which is my role, and I'll tell you more about that in a minute.
• 2:25
  Kathleen: We have acceptance solutions, which my colleague Rob Cameron leads, and that faces the merchant side of our network and the acquirers that support our merchants.
• 2:35
  Kathleen: We have risk and identity solutions.
• 2:38
  Kathleen: That's led by my colleague, james Murfin, and that is all around helping our clients manage risk like fraud, and there's a lot of cool identity solutions.
• 2:46
  Kathleen: And then we have our VCA business, visa Consulting and Analytics.
• 2:50
  Kathleen: That's led by my colleague, carl, and so all of these pieces we put together under Value Added Services.
• 2:57
  Kathleen: My leader is Anthony Cahill and essentially, whether you are issuing a Visa card or accepting a Visa card, if you're a part of the Visa universe, we have this suite of value-added services to help you be effective.
• 3:12
  Kathleen: And so in my space Issuing Solutions, we have a host of solutions and really an issuer can be a bank, it could be a fintech, it could be a non-financial institution, even like Uber, or a company like that might issue visa credentials as part of their overall business model.
• 3:28
  Kathleen: So there's a pretty broad suite of the types of clients that we serve.
• 3:32
  Kathleen: We serve them, starting at that foundation level, with infrastructure solutions, things like issuing, processing, core banking capabilities.
• 3:41
  Kathleen: You might have seen in the news, we acquired a company called Pismo.
• 3:43
  Kathleen: We also have this incredible business, dps, here in the US that does debit processing.
• 3:49
  Kathleen: It's the premier debit processing solution in the US.
• 3:52
  Kathleen: So you really think of like real core infrastructure inside of a bank or inside of a fintech, all the way to solutions that help our customers, our clients, engage their consumers.
• 4:05
  Kathleen: So think about things like loyalty solutions or benefits that can be linked to the Visa credentials, the card.
• 4:12
  Kathleen: We provide these capabilities to our clients so that they can engage and retain their end consumers.
• 4:20
  Kathleen: We also have a host of capabilities that help our clients provide a really best-in-class digital experience.
• 4:27
  Kathleen: So we have a digital enablement team.
• 4:30
  Kathleen: We have this incredible SDK You've probably heard me talk about it or seen articles about it Things like providing subscription management capabilities to end consumers so they can manage their streaming services and all their different subscriptions.
• 4:42
  Kathleen: So we provide a whole host of solutions, really with the aim of helping our clients be successful with their end consumers, helping them be competitive the way we like to say it is.
• 4:52
  Kathleen: We're helping our issuers stay ahead of ever increasing customer expectations.
• 4:58
  Kathleen: That's what my team does in a nutshell, and, greg, if you remember, when we last spoke, I was raving about my job at SBB and I loved being there and helping so many companies that were innovating in financial services and making it easier and less expensive for everyone in the world to access financial services in the global economy.
• 5:19
  Kathleen: Now I'm actually at the biggest fintech in the world helping thousands of banks serving their end consumers better, and so I still have these pinch me moments.
• 5:28
  Kathleen: I sort of can't believe that I'm in this job and have the privilege of leading this business for Visa.
• 5:35
  Greg: That's awesome.
• 5:35
  Greg: Well, thanks for sharing that.
• 5:37
  Greg: So, before we get into the meat of the conversation, I'd like to do a little icebreaker exercise where I'm going to ask you a this or that question, so something like do you prefer early morning or late evening?
• 5:48
  Greg: You give me the quick answer and we're going to run through 10 of those real quick, so tell me when you're ready.
• 5:53
  Kathleen: I'm ready.
• 5:54
  Greg: Okay.
• 5:54
  Greg: Do you prefer summer or winter?
• 5:56
  Greg: Winter Cats or dogs?
• 5:59
  Kathleen: Both.
• 6:00
  Kathleen: I can't decide.
• 6:01
  Greg: Okay, apple or Android.
• 6:04
  Kathleen: Apple.
• 6:05
  Greg: Coffee or tea.
• 6:06
  Kathleen: Coffee.
• 6:07
  Greg: Books or movies.
• 6:08
  Greg: Books Beach or mountains.
• 6:13
  Kathleen: Mountains.
• 6:14
  Greg: Chocolate or vanilla.
• 6:15
  Greg: Vanilla Texting or calling.
• 6:18
  Greg: Texting the city or the country.
• 6:22
  Kathleen: The country.
• 6:23
  Greg: And finally the last one pizza or pasta, oh gosh Pizza.
• 6:31
  Greg: Okay, awesome.
• 6:33
  Greg: Well, thank you so much for doing that.
• 6:34
  Greg: That was fun.
• 6:35
  Greg: So let's talk a little bit more about you.
• 6:37
  Greg: So what was your life like growing up?
• 6:40
  Kathleen: Well, let's see here.
• 6:40
  Kathleen: In many ways it was pretty normal for a person my age.
• 6:45
  Kathleen: So I grew up in the late 70s, early 80s, so things like my mom would send me out the door on a Saturday morning and tell me to return when the streetlights came on.
• 6:55
  Kathleen: I'm totally aging myself here, but that was like sort of the norm.
• 6:59
  Kathleen: I played outside a ton.
• 7:01
  Kathleen: I loved nature, I loved bugs.
• 7:03
  Kathleen: I was definitely a tomboy, but at the same time my family had some pretty significant financial challenges, especially after my mom and my dad got divorced when I was around nine or 10.
• 7:14
  Kathleen: And my mom really struggled in a lot of ways still with financial security and just sort of mental health.
• 7:21
  Kathleen: And so I would say I had.
• 7:23
  Kathleen: I think when you and I spoke last I talked about the instability of my upbringing.
• 7:27
  Kathleen: That was very much a part of what shaped me and drives me sort of subconsciously.
• 7:33
  Kathleen: But fortunately for me, I was really a nerd and I was very lucky that as a nerd I was able to get a lot out of my school environment and I was super engaged.
• 7:45
  Kathleen: It was a source of security and, in some ways, self-worth and self-esteem and then ultimately, frankly, it was my path out of my situation.
• 7:55
  Kathleen: Being a nerd really served me well.
• 7:58
  Kathleen: Ultimately I was able to go to a great school and kind of escape from that environment.
• 8:06
  Kathleen: I think you and I talked about this.
• 8:07
  Kathleen: I don't have any negative or sad feelings about how I grew up because it really shaped me.
• 8:13
  Kathleen: In the adversity that I was that I experienced and you know I think back to it I didn't even really realize how bad it was until I got out of it and sort of saw a contrasting experience when I was at Northwestern.
• 8:26
  Kathleen: But it provides a drive inside of me that is sort of hard to describe.
• 8:31
  Kathleen: It really shaped my values.
• 8:33
  Kathleen: So it was challenging but I think it was ultimately a good thing for me.
• 8:38
  Greg: Okay, so when you were young, what did you want to be when you grew up?
• 8:42
  Kathleen: Oh my gosh.
• 8:43
  Kathleen: I cycled through so many different aspirations.
• 8:46
  Kathleen: I wanted to be a neurosurgeon, a dolphin trainer, a florist, a research scientist.
• 8:52
  Kathleen: You know I was.
• 8:53
  Kathleen: I truly was a nerd.
• 8:54
  Kathleen: I loved chemistry, I loved neuroscience, but ultimately I think what I wanted was financial security.
• 9:01
  Kathleen: I think by the time I was getting close to graduating at Northwestern, I think I was hyper-focused on getting a stable job and establishing a path for myself, for a career that would ultimately take away any kind of financial insecurity that I'd experienced growing up.
• 9:19
  Kathleen: So, as much as I had all these fun aspirations, I think I was pretty practical and pragmatic when it came down to it.
• 9:26
  Greg: Okay, so my very first job that I you know outside of just chores and things like that, I washed pots and pans in a cafeteria of a university during the summers.
• 9:38
  Greg: So just curious, what was your very first job?
• 9:42
  Kathleen: Not far from that.
• 9:42
  Kathleen: I started my amazing career at McDonald's and it's so funny.
• 9:49
  Kathleen: I loved it.
• 9:51
  Kathleen: I literally cringe at my younger self, but I was so enthusiastic.
• 9:56
  Kathleen: I loved first of all, just the fact that I could earn money and I loved doing a good job.
• 10:01
  Kathleen: I loved pleasing people and feeling a sense of progressing.
• 10:06
  Kathleen: I got good at it.
• 10:08
  Kathleen: I got promoted in record time to crew trainer, which to this day I'm still proud of.
• 10:12
  Kathleen: I actually have my McDonald's name tag.
• 10:15
  Kathleen: I used to go by Kathy, so it's got the little golden arches and Kathy.
• 10:21
  Kathleen: It's actually quite funny, greg, because by the time I was having to give my resignation because I was heading off to college I was going to Northwestern kind of a big deal.
• 10:30
  Kathleen: I thought my manager tried to convince me to stay and she described this amazing potential.
• 10:36
  Kathleen: I had to run my own McDonald's franchises.
• 10:40
  Kathleen: So I really I got a ton out of it.
• 10:42
  Kathleen: To this day I still feel like it was a very shaping experience.
• 10:47
  Greg: Well certainly, had you stayed at McDonald's, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
• 10:50
  Greg: I know, I know, all right.
• 10:53
  Greg: Well, let's continue on with your career, maybe walk us through from graduating college till today, kind of your career journey of your career journey?
• 11:08
  Kathleen: Sure, and I would say that sort of optimism and ambition and courage that I describe having at McDonald's really has carried me this far.
• 11:12
  Kathleen: So I graduated from Northwestern, I got a few different offers in the consulting world and I sort of remember thinking I don't know what else to do and it seems like decent pay.
• 11:22
  Kathleen: I had decided early in my Northwestern tenure that I didn't actually want to go into science because the what I loved about it really was going to be a minimal part of the experience of actually going into science.
• 11:35
  Kathleen: So I I pretty quickly came to that conclusion.
• 11:38
  Kathleen: I went into consulting and just had an incredible experience for four years.
• 11:43
  Kathleen: I got to do things that I felt unqualified for.
• 11:47
  Kathleen: I was put into situations and, you know, sort of faced solving problems without what you would imagine the required training would be, and it was incredible.
• 11:56
  Kathleen: I just grew so much and I got so much exposure across different industries and really put my analytical brain to work in a number of situations and then kind of got tired of the travel and, frankly, feeling like I was leaving right as things would get interesting.
• 12:15
  Kathleen: Right, you go to a client, you work hard for several months, you build these relationships.
• 12:19
  Kathleen: You make recommendations and then you leave and you go to the next client and I wanted to hold on to something I wanted to execute.
• 12:26
  Kathleen: I wanted to be a part of the result.
• 12:29
  Kathleen: So I was having lunch with a girlfriend and sharing this and I remember at the time I was an American Express customer because I had my corporate card.
• 12:37
  Kathleen: I got my green card and linked it for the membership rewards and I loved Amex.
• 12:41
  Kathleen: I just thought it was such a great high integrity company.
• 12:45
  Kathleen: I really liked the business model also, so I was raving about it.
• 12:49
  Kathleen: And the girlfriend I was having lunch with had a classmate from her business school that was in the strategic planning group at American Express.
• 12:56
  Kathleen: So, as luck would have it, she was able to connect us.
• 13:00
  Kathleen: I gave him my resume.
• 13:01
  Kathleen: They were happened to be hiring for two roles of experienced undergraduates, so I got a job in the strategic planning group at American Express.
• 13:11
  Kathleen: I literally to this day, feel like I won the lottery, and the whole time that I was there I thought someone was going to find out that I wasn't supposed to be there.
• 13:19
  Kathleen: It was just.
• 13:19
  Kathleen: I felt so fortunate and that kind of continued on While I was at Amex.
• 13:24
  Kathleen: I truly was just so happy to be there and so interested in all of the problems I was helping to solve, and I progressed from one role to the next and ultimately ended up in the merchant side of the business and had my first real general manager job in that role, and it was just incredible.
• 13:42
  Kathleen: I got recruited by Capital One and that was a sort of a big decision really from a family perspective.
• 13:49
  Kathleen: We loved being in the New York area when I was at American Express, but when I came to visit Capital One in the Northern Virginia area it felt like a better place for us as a family.
• 14:00
  Kathleen: So we had three kids under six at the time and it started to feel like it might be better to be in an environment like a suburb and have a house and you know schools and sports and activities and all that stuff.
• 14:13
  Kathleen: So we ended up making the decision to move here.
• 14:15
  Kathleen: And then Capital One was an interesting journey.
• 14:18
  Kathleen: Going from a affluent, focused, spend-centric business to a subprime-focused, lend-centric business really brought to life for me the challenges across financial services and I got to do some really cool stuff there.
• 14:34
  Kathleen: I was in the operations team for a while and then I ran the co-brand business when they acquired HSBC's US card business and then I got to participate in the digital transformation in the bank.
• 14:45
  Kathleen: So I got quite a ride there.
• 14:46
  Kathleen: And then I went to PayPal where I led the consumer credit business and what's interesting is, just along my journey I was just able to take everything I had done to my next role almost as like it was done with intention, but it truly wasn't.
• 15:01
  Kathleen: I remember someone asking how did you set out on the path that you were on?
• 15:06
  Kathleen: And I was like I didn't.
• 15:07
  Kathleen: It just sort of happened.
• 15:09
  Kathleen: It really has truly been.
• 15:10
  Kathleen: One thing has led to the next and it continued on.
• 15:14
  Kathleen: So from PayPal I went into the startup world and you know I'd started getting to know startups while I was at PayPal, because it's sort of the technology space and we were looking at a bunch of different companies and then ended up at a startup.
• 15:26
  Kathleen: And then I co-founded a startup and then I went to QED investors and ran a company for Nigel Morris in the recruiting spaces, the space of all things.
• 15:38
  Kathleen: And then COVID hit and it was actually kind of good timing because my kids were at home for two weeks straight with nothing to do, right, as I had left that role and we went into a hybrid learning environment for a year and a half and that's when I ended up at Silicon Valley Bank and I had actually talked to SBB a year prior but didn't want to move to California at the time and with COVID that no longer was relevant.
• 16:09
  Kathleen: So I was able to go to SBV and lead the payments business and this is when you and I chatted last and it was just an incredible experience helping basically run all payments, so all money movement the commercial card business that we had, the acquiring business that we had, all of the wires, the real time payments that we were launching you know, the whole kit and caboodle, as they say, and we were really embarking on something interesting in the embedded payment space in particular, and that was a ton of fun.
• 16:39
  Kathleen: I met and worked with so many incredible companies as we were expanding what we did for them in the payment space and really got pretty integral into a number of different businesses and this is why I raved about it so much.
• 16:52
  Kathleen: I felt like I was able to be a bank right, a very what I would have said at the time, very secure financial institution.
• 16:58
  Kathleen: Obviously, things changed, but serving these companies that were on the edge right, like really pushing the envelope, doing interesting things, so it was like this best of both worlds kind of experience.
• 17:11
  Kathleen: So it was like this best of both worlds kind of experience and I was there all the way through the very end and then, when the whole crisis happened, it just sort of was a natural progression and I almost couldn't believe it all worked out the way it did and now I'm here leading this business, which is just.
• 17:47
  Kathleen: I really feel so fortunate and so lucky because it's even bigger.
• 17:51
  Kathleen: It's even more expansive the reach that I'm able to have in this role and Visa has 4 billion plus consumer relationships.
• 18:02
  Kathleen: Right, you've got thousands of issuers on our network and millions of merchants.
• 18:07
  Kathleen: When my team does something effectively with a client, it literally is touching the lives of millions and millions of people.
• 18:16
  Kathleen: So I feel like I've been able to expand my reach throughout my career and have a bigger impact that I mean Lord knows what I'll do next.
• 18:25
  Kathleen: If it keeps getting bigger, it might explode at some point.
• 18:29
  Kathleen: So I really just kind of chased the next problem, the next opportunity.
• 18:33
  Kathleen: I've been very forthright and open with what I'm interested in, what I'm working on, and that's just how things have played out and how opportunities have flowed from one to the next.
• 18:43
  Greg: Okay, great.
• 18:44
  Greg: Well, that brings us up until today.
• 18:46
  Greg: So obviously you've been very successful throughout your career.
• 18:50
  Greg: What are some of your guiding principles?
• 18:53
  Kathleen: Yeah, well, as you get to know me, I am an open book and I think someone said at some point I was like the most authentic and honest person they had ever met.
• 19:03
  Kathleen: So it really is like I am who I am in any situation and I do have these really strong values.
• 19:09
  Kathleen: I was very fortunate when I was at American Express to do some emotional intelligence workshops and there was a big focus on understanding what drives you like understanding what drives you what, what is your motivation as a person?
• 19:20
  Kathleen: What do you care about?
• 19:21
  Kathleen: So there was this whole exercise I went through where I honed in on my key values and I it's four words that I'll use to describe it.
• 19:30
  Kathleen: Integrity is the first, and this is obviously a really good thing.
• 19:35
  Kathleen: It's good to have integrity, but it's a really fundamental part of me.
• 19:39
  Kathleen: There's this notion of accountability and fairness and justice and do the right thing, and it's a very big thing for me.
• 19:47
  Kathleen: I truly cannot handle dishonesty or ingenuity.
• 19:51
  Kathleen: I just crave doing the right thing, for others to do the right thing, for there to be justice and equilibrium, and you'll see it manifest in a lot of different ways, whether it's in my work life or my home life.
• 20:06
  Kathleen: Excellence is the second one, and this is also just so defines me.
• 20:12
  Kathleen: I really like to do a good job.
• 20:14
  Kathleen: I'm really I can't stand not doing a good job on something that I know I can do and if I just put a little bit of effort in into I care about outcomes and results.
• 20:26
  Kathleen: I'm an efficiency queen like I.
• 20:28
  Kathleen: I just always want to be better and you know there's obviously that's also a good thing but can be annoying at times.
• 20:34
  Kathleen: Sometimes we don't need to be so perfect as my kids would tell me, but I really am always striving for greatness and striving for, for betterment.
• 20:44
  Kathleen: Compassion is the third, and I'd say this one has actually evolved over time for me.
• 20:49
  Kathleen: I would say it was a lot more linear and overly analytical when I was younger and I've developed a greater sense of compassion and empathy through my years.
• 21:00
  Kathleen: Especially having kids and the greater leadership roles I've had where I'm influencing a lot more people's lives.
• 21:07
  Kathleen: I've really developed a stronger sense of compassion and I just think it really matters.
• 21:12
  Kathleen: It means you can understand people better and therefore inspire them more, and you know there's not to be so results oriented when talking about compassion, but you also have to have self-compassion and if you are willing to accept and love yourself, then you're more able to accept and love others and be understanding and, like I said, connect in such a way that you're able to motivate folks.
• 21:40
  Kathleen: And then, last but not least, number four is happiness.
• 21:43
  Kathleen: Like, what's the point if you're not having fun?
• 21:46
  Kathleen: And for me, happiness is truly, it's the absence of anxiety, it's contentness, it's being with my family, it's contentness.
• 21:52
  Kathleen: It's being with my family, it's being relaxed, it's sort of not worrying about things, and I want that for my family, I want that for my colleagues.
• 22:01
  Kathleen: Like I think everyone has a right to have happiness and it's a personal thing, like it's your own definition of what happiness is.
• 22:10
  Kathleen: And it's also up to you to create it and to establish it, but everyone has a right to it.
• 22:15
  Kathleen: So that, right, there are my four words that describe my values.
• 22:19
  Greg: I love it.
• 22:19
  Greg: I love it.
• 22:20
  Greg: So let's talk about your journey to becoming a leader.
• 22:23
  Greg: Were there any pivotal moments or experiences that kind of helped to shape your path?
• 22:31
  Kathleen: Yeah, I have a couple.
• 22:32
  Kathleen: I don't think of the traditional like oh, I became a people leader when I had two people reporting to me when I took this role.
• 22:39
  Kathleen: It's not like that.
• 22:39
  Kathleen: For me.
• 22:40
  Kathleen: It's been more about driving change and there's been a couple key moments in my career where I was either presented an opportunity and I took it, or I found I declared an opportunity and I took it.
• 22:55
  Kathleen: So I'll give you an example of each.
• 22:57
  Kathleen: When I was at American Express, I went on maternity leave and was offered a role when I came back to lead the small merchant business, which sounds amazing, but it didn't exist.
• 23:11
  Kathleen: It was something that Amex had struggled at for a very long time.
• 23:15
  Kathleen: They had this what they called unmanaged base of millions of small merchants that didn't have the traditional client management infrastructure to support the small merchants and we were losing as many as we were acquiring every single year.
• 23:27
  Kathleen: And there were multiple attempts at doing a better job, serving the segment of customers and establishing higher retention rates and lower acquisition costs and all that stuff.
• 23:37
  Kathleen: And so I remember thinking, whoa, why are you giving me this job?
• 23:41
  Kathleen: Like, are you trying to fire me?
• 23:43
  Kathleen: Because everyone else who's tried has failed.
• 23:45
  Kathleen: And I'll tell you, I just kind of went in brave and did, I think, a pretty well-rounded approach to getting to a strategy right.
• 23:55
  Kathleen: I listened to merchants, I did a ton of analysis and just kind of studied the space, came up with a strategy with a very small and mighty team, and then we executed on that strategy and it was incredibly inspiring.
• 24:08
  Kathleen: We achieved some really tremendous results pretty early on and got support to expand the team significantly.
• 24:15
  Kathleen: It was right, as Amex was launching Small Business Saturday, which really was focused on my clients, my small merchants.
• 24:21
  Kathleen: But the thing that struck me was I had to lead this idea and I had to change how we thought about this segment of really important merchants and be a voice for them.
• 24:34
  Kathleen: And so there was this idea of driving change and leading like having thought leadership and sort of driving the organization into a direction that they weren't going, and that meant compelling people to join me and compelling the leadership to fund it.
• 24:51
  Kathleen: So I really had to establish myself as a leader and it was somewhat natural because I was so excited about that space and naturally interested in doing better there.
• 25:01
  Kathleen: Then the second example I'll give you is it was actually challenging when I went to Capital One.
• 25:07
  Kathleen: They were pretty early in their approach towards being very customer centric and they were rich Fairbanks.
• 25:15
  Kathleen: The CEO was working on a customer centric mission and there's a number of factors that sort of led to that.
• 25:21
  Kathleen: But for me, like the very first day, I felt such a contrast, coming from Amex, which was so customer obsessed it's like the fabric of the company to a company that, just frankly, didn't have to really work very hard because the customers that they were going after just didn't have as much choice.
• 25:40
  Kathleen: And so I had to, and I felt such a connection to the customer.
• 25:45
  Kathleen: That was me, that was my family, like my family was subprime, they were, we were sub subprime and I felt so much this is also the word I would use compassion and empathy for our customers.
• 25:57
  Kathleen: And Capital One was such a great company.
• 26:00
  Kathleen: They were doing such a great job.
• 26:01
  Kathleen: They were providing credit to these customers and no one else was, so there was a lot of goodness there and they had done a lot through the years to be even more customer centric.
• 26:11
  Kathleen: But for me there was such a contrast that I was able to see things differently than the executives that had been there for a long time, and I found these time I also was one of very few senior women in the company and felt different because of that, and so I had to step up in a place where I didn't feel like I was the accepted norm to speak about something that was, you know, quite on the edge, and it was really hard, I'd say I lost my confidence and a lot of my key traits I can be very articulate and compelling as a communicator.
• 27:01
  Kathleen: I lost my ability to speak almost at some point during that process and then I regained it back and I started to develop a lot of awareness around the factors that influence your ability to be successful.
• 27:15
  Kathleen: And for me it was just incredibly powerful because it gave me clarity on what matters from a business perspective and what I really, why I was in financial services and what I was meant to be doing and almost developed like this personal mission around helping consumers achieve financial health and financial security.
• 27:38
  Kathleen: And it just made a ton of sense all of a sudden why I was at Capital One.
• 27:42
  Kathleen: So I kind of realized that it's not about your job title, it's not about how many people report into you, it's not about you know if you manage a P&L or not.
• 27:51
  Kathleen: It's about are you leading an idea, are you leading towards something, a vision?
• 27:56
  Kathleen: And so those pivotal.
• 27:56
  Kathleen: It's about are you leading an idea?
• 27:56
  Kathleen: Are you leading towards something, a vision?
• 27:57
  Kathleen: And so those pivotal moments and there are many others, you know big ones, small ones, but I'd say they shaped me pretty significantly.
• 28:05
  Greg: Okay, and you may have mentioned one of these challenges, which we're going to talk about next, already, but maybe there are others what are some of the biggest challenges that you faced as a female leader and how did you overcome them?
• 28:20
  Kathleen: Well, it's not like it goes away right.
• 28:23
  Kathleen: There's a lot of imbalance in the world that continues.
• 28:26
  Kathleen: I think it's unconscious bias.
• 28:29
  Kathleen: There's so many colleagues that mean well, in fact, one of my sort of.
• 28:35
  Kathleen: I laugh about it now but one of the more challenging experiences I had was actually with a female leader when I was pregnant.
• 28:42
  Kathleen: I adore her, she adored me and she was really wanted to look out for me.
• 28:47
  Kathleen: You know, I had this big belly.
• 28:49
  Kathleen: I was carrying another human.
• 28:51
  Kathleen: She wanted to make sure I was okay, and so she actually chose not to give me this major assignment.
• 28:57
  Kathleen: She gave it to a colleague of mine and then asked me to provide coaching and guidance to my colleague who was my peer, by the way, and so inadvertently actually made my, made it harder and more miserable for me to do the job that she really wanted me to do in the first place, but through someone else, and it was.
• 29:15
  Kathleen: You know, it was with good intention, so that's an example.
• 29:19
  Kathleen: Of course, I've experienced everything from being sort of forgotten, questioned, ignored, viewed as an object.
• 29:28
  Kathleen: But how did I overcome them?
• 29:30
  Kathleen: It's just, you know, everybody's got to deal with crap at times, like for me, it's being a woman, you know, maybe for another person it's because they're they're short or they're too tall or they're, you know, from an underrepresented category of you know there's a long list, you just bear through it.
• 29:49
  Kathleen: And I think the one thing I really learned in some of the female-oriented discrimination I've experienced is being angry or blaming doesn't actually solve the problem.
• 30:02
  Kathleen: It's actually compassion and sort of coming at it very differently and trying to understand why it is that way and develop compassion and understanding for the person that might be creating that situation for you.
• 30:13
  Kathleen: And that's, you know, I learned a ton about unconscious bias when I was at Capital One.
• 30:17
  Kathleen: We had some really great training on it, and so that's actually been really powerful for me through the years.
• 30:23
  Kathleen: I don't get, you know, if I'm belittled by a male colleague.
• 30:27
  Kathleen: It's not that it doesn't faze me.
• 30:29
  Kathleen: Of course it affects me.
• 30:30
  Kathleen: I might even, you know, have like a feeling of being smarted right.
• 30:39
  Kathleen: It hurts my feelings, but I get this sense of compassion and instead of wanting to retaliate or be frustrated by it, it's more like I want to help advance, I want to help it be better, and I think that's really powerful.
• 30:49
  Kathleen: Actually, it's quite empowering to feel that versus anger.
• 30:52
  Kathleen: Long-winded answer for you.
• 30:54
  Greg: No, I think that's a great answer because I think you covered the what did you do about it and how did you react to it.
• 31:00
  Greg: So I think that's great.
• 31:01
  Greg: This is somewhat similar, but I want to put a little bit of a twist on it.
• 31:05
  Greg: It's about coming out of your comfort zone, and I think this is a little more in my mind, is more about you know, taking that risk, maybe as a younger, up-and-coming employee or business owner or whatever it may be.
• 31:19
  Greg: So were there times or experiences you can share where you felt like you had to take that risk or step out of your comfort zone to grow in your career?
• 31:28
  Kathleen: Oh my gosh.
• 31:28
  Kathleen: Honestly, I am always out of my comfort zone.
• 31:32
  Kathleen: I am a crazy person and I sort of had this realization about myself somewhat recently.
• 31:38
  Kathleen: I am just.
• 31:39
  Kathleen: I love a challenge.
• 31:41
  Kathleen: I actually love a job that I have not figured out.
• 31:44
  Kathleen: It is so exciting to not know the answer, and as soon as I know the answer it's not that it's boring, but it's part of the fun is finding the answer.
• 31:54
  Kathleen: I had a colleague when I was at Capital One, rick Elliott, who to this day I still think about.
• 31:59
  Kathleen: He would talk about puzzle value in a job.
• 32:02
  Kathleen: When you're thinking about a new role, how much puzzle value is there?
• 32:06
  Kathleen: How hard is it going to be to figure out?
• 32:08
  Kathleen: Like the intellectual stimulation and in fact that would be my advice to an up and coming someone younger in their career is have courage, take risk, and the earlier you are in your career, the more risk you should be taking and just constantly be seeking to grow and develop and do things that are not familiar to you and try things that are a bit scary.
• 32:32
  Kathleen: That is where the growth happened.
• 32:34
  Kathleen: I think I played it safe for quite a while in my career and then took some risks when I went into the startup world and, quite frankly, I had some misses, like I actually.
• 32:44
  Kathleen: I fell down and scraped my knee a few times.
• 32:47
  Kathleen: It was debilitating, like the.
• 32:49
  Kathleen: I hate the word failure because I just don't think that's the right way to describe it.
• 32:53
  Kathleen: It was a lot of learning and reflecting and growth and development that came from it and you know people called it failure, but that's the greatest periods of growth I've ever had.
• 33:05
  Kathleen: It is when I'm the most out of my comfort zone, either before, during or after taking a risk, whether it goes well or not, taking a risk whether it goes well or not.
• 33:16
  Kathleen: And so and I truly my family jokes with me gosh I wish I could just be comfortable for a little bit, like just rest for a moment.
• 33:24
  Kathleen: I think I have this like internal change agent drive that I just cannot shake.
• 33:34
  Kathleen: So I'm always, I'm always out of my comfort zone, Gotcha.
• 33:35
  Greg: Okay, so let's talk about mentorship.
• 33:37
  Greg: So have you had mentors in your career?
• 33:40
  Greg: If so, can you talk about how they've influenced your career?
• 33:44
  Greg: And then you know kind of second part is how important do you think mentorship is for people that are, you know, emerging leaders?
• 33:53
  Kathleen: Oh, I think it's critical and I also think it's free and it's around you all the time.
• 33:58
  Kathleen: You don't need to establish a formal mentor-mentee relationship.
• 34:02
  Kathleen: You don't need to ask will you be my mentor?
• 34:05
  Kathleen: And people ask me.
• 34:06
  Kathleen: Sometimes they'll ask me formally will you be my mentor?
• 34:09
  Kathleen: Sometimes they'll just ask for advice, and I do that all the time.
• 34:13
  Kathleen: I mean I've been at Visa now for just over a year.
• 34:15
  Kathleen: It's a big company, it's a complex business and there are a lot of folks that have been here for a long time.
• 34:23
  Kathleen: So I'm usually feeling stupid at any given moment in the day, Like there's a lot that I don't know so I have to seek out.
• 34:28
  Kathleen: I'd call it like safe conversations where I can ask some dumb questions or get some advice or counsel and have someone explain to me how something works here at Visa.
• 34:39
  Kathleen: But I've had a few people, I'd say, that have shaped me, whether they know it or not, and sometimes it's not even people more senior to me.
• 34:48
  Kathleen: It's been folks that are more junior to me.
• 34:51
  Kathleen: I had a woman that was on my team at Capital One, multiple levels junior to me, and we just really connected and I think she would have viewed me as her mentor, but I got so much out of our conversations and learned so much about myself and her when we would spend time together.
• 35:09
  Kathleen: She went on to be awarded like Working Mother of the Year Award or something.
• 35:15
  Kathleen: And I got to tell you it felt like I won because of the rich connection that we had.
• 35:21
  Kathleen: I don't know.
• 35:21
  Kathleen: A mentorship is a two-way street in my mind, so I do have.
• 35:25
  Kathleen: I would push folks to not think about it as this.
• 35:28
  Kathleen: Like linear, clear, you know black and white thing, everyone around you can serve as a mentor.
• 35:36
  Greg: Yeah, I've been having these conversations and that seems to be a common theme is don't sit around and wait for your company to create some formal program.
• 35:44
  Greg: Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you need to take ownership of it yourself and you'll be surprised at how many people are willing to help.
• 35:54
  Greg: And you know, like you said, you don't have to even call them formal.
• 35:57
  Greg: You know mentors and you know you don't have to have this relationship where you're going to meet once a month or once a quarter or whatever.
• 36:04
  Greg: It can be a much more casual thing.
• 36:06
  Greg: But you know, as an up-and-coming leader, you need to have those people in your you know sphere of influence, and I think it's just incredibly important that we all do that.
• 36:16
  Kathleen: Yeah, and people who are actually working with you are the most equipped to give you the feedback and advice.
• 36:24
  Kathleen: So, like you know, if I'm working on our annual operating plan and I have a meeting with my team and my finance partner is there, it would make so much sense for me to say, hey, how do you think that went?
• 36:36
  Kathleen: What could I be doing differently?
• 36:38
  Kathleen: Do you think the team is on board with what I'm suggesting?
• 36:41
  Kathleen: And so the person who might feel more junior to me is probably the best positioned to give me the feedback and the guidance and advice and just constantly be thinking about any particular situation.
• 36:53
  Kathleen: Who can you ask for guidance and feedback so that you can grow and develop all the time, not just like once a quarter, like you said?
• 37:00
  Greg: Right, Okay, so let's play out this scenario.
• 37:04
  Greg: Young woman graduating from college.
• 37:06
  Greg: She's looking at the payments or fintech industry.
• 37:09
  Greg: She wants to build a career in the industry.
• 37:11
  Greg: She comes to you.
• 37:12
  Greg: She says KPG, what advice would you give me to be successful?
• 37:16
  Greg: What would you tell her?
• 37:18
  Kathleen: I mean it is all around.
• 37:20
  Kathleen: Have some courage, put yourself out there and learn.
• 37:24
  Kathleen: Be really focused on learning about the problems and the opportunities and what makes them so, and and get excited about Like.
• 37:37
  Kathleen: Whenever someone asks me, you know what does it take to get promoted?
• 37:41
  Kathleen: That's just the wrong question to ask.
• 37:44
  Kathleen: Focus on solving a problem.
• 37:47
  Kathleen: Focus on like.
• 37:48
  Kathleen: You know, I'm at Visa, I'm in value-added services, I'm trying to grow this issuing solutions business.
• 37:54
  Kathleen: I would never ask anyone hey, how do I get promoted?
• 37:58
  Kathleen: Do your job, do your work, find the opportunity, find the growth, find the biggest problem, find the biggest risk.
• 38:07
  Kathleen: When you're early in your career, you're very early in the process of developing judgment, so you should be very much in listening mode and seeking to understand and asking a lot of questions.
• 38:20
  Kathleen: You will provide value, trust me.
• 38:23
  Kathleen: You're going to make a lot of PowerPoint slides.
• 38:24
  Kathleen: You're going to build a lot of spreadsheets.
• 38:26
  Kathleen: You're going to write a lot of memos.
• 38:28
  Kathleen: But take it with excitement and enthusiasm, because those are your chances to really harden your knowledge and to test it out and to put it into practice.
• 38:39
  Kathleen: And then practice like put yourself out there Even if you're early in your career, if you're in a meeting and someone says something that sparks a thought, be proactive with it, be forthright, be a participant, actively engage.
• 38:51
  Kathleen: It can be so nerve wracking to put yourself out there and to take a chance.
• 38:55
  Kathleen: You know, maybe put a perspective out there that you haven't heard in the room, but that's how you learn and at the same time, be, you know, be humble, like it's okay if you put it out there and no one, no one latches onto it.
• 39:09
  Kathleen: Do it again.
• 39:10
  Kathleen: You know you're just going to be continuing to grow the more chances you try.
• 39:14
  Kathleen: You know you're just going to be continuing to grow the more chances you try.
• 39:17
  Kathleen: My son plays basketball and one of the things I've observed is he just doesn't, he doesn't take enough shots.
• 39:21
  Kathleen: He's so good and he's such a hard worker, but he holds back from taking shots.
• 39:27
  Kathleen: And I keep saying to him the more shots you take, the more shots you make you will also miss more shots, the more shots you take, but you're not going to make it if you don't throw the damn ball.
• 39:40
  Kathleen: So you just got to put yourself out there.
• 39:42
  Kathleen: You got to try and then you learn.
• 39:44
  Kathleen: You you know, maybe you push a little too hard with your right arm or your your index finger touch the ball too late.
• 39:50
  Kathleen: You'll try again and you'll adjust.
• 39:52
  Kathleen: And that's what you do when you're early in your career is you just take it all on, and at this stage in my career I'm practicing saying no more.
• 40:01
  Kathleen: When you're early in your career, you need to say yes all the time, like every opportunity, and it's slight exaggeration, but really just embrace every chance you get to try something new, to learn something new, and then practice taking risks and putting ideas out there.
• 40:19
  Greg: Yeah, I think that's great advice, so thank you for sharing that.
• 40:22
  Greg: Well, let's wrap up with one final question who or what inspires you to keep pushing forward in your career?
• 40:30
  Kathleen: Let's see here.
• 40:31
  Kathleen: Well, honestly, I do like a good challenge, and that is what I would describe my job as right now.
• 40:37
  Kathleen: It's very challenging in such an exciting way, and so I'm just like so stimulated by what I'm doing right now.
• 40:46
  Kathleen: I'm afraid of being bored.
• 40:48
  Kathleen: I sometimes joke that I wish I could just be bored.
• 40:52
  Kathleen: That would be so fun.
• 40:53
  Kathleen: But I love what I'm doing.
• 40:55
  Kathleen: I'm building this team Like I have an incredible team, and we're growing and developing together.
• 41:02
  Kathleen: There's been a lot of work we've put into this business over this last year to make it even more client-centric, and I just think there's so much more upside for us to realize.
• 41:11
  Kathleen: I can't even imagine not doing this, and I'm sure it will lead to another challenge and another opportunity.
• 41:19
  Kathleen: And I guess you know like I want to keep setting a path for others as well.
• 41:26
  Kathleen: The reality is there are very few senior women in financial services, and when I see someone that's succeeding, it gives me a sense that I can do it too.
• 41:37
  Kathleen: So I also feel like I am hopefully making it possible for more folks whether they're coming from a challenging background, like I did, or they're in an underrepresented category I'm giving them something as a model, and so I feel like, hopefully, I'm raising up a bunch more folks that will follow behind me and pay it forward when they get to the next stage.
• 41:58
  Kathleen: So there you go.
• 42:00
  Greg: Awesome.
• 42:00
  Greg: Okay Well, kpg, thank you so much for your time today.
• 42:04
  Greg: I know your time is very valuable, so I really appreciate you being on the show today.
• 42:08
  Kathleen: It was my pleasure, greg.
• 42:09
  Kathleen: This is like the funnest thing I did today, so I appreciate you having me.
• 42:13
  Greg: Great, great.
• 42:13
  Greg: And to all you listeners out there, I thank you for your time as well, and until the next story.
• 42:18
  Greg: A special thanks to our sponsors for helping make this month possible, especially our contributing sponsors, stacks Payments, nuve and Map Advisors, and to our episode sponsors NMI, daily Pay, gnd and Ingenico.
• 42:33
  Greg: To learn more, visit wwwleadersinpaymentscom.