Latest / B Shifter / The Silverbacks on Perspective (Part 2)

Transcript

The Silverbacks on Perspective (Part 2) · B Shifter

• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Hi John Vance here.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: This is part two of the B Shifter podcast.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: On this episode, we're continuing the conversation talking about perspective and how us as leaders can lend perspective to our firefighters, especially those that maybe don't have the experience level that we have, but they're very educated, they're go-getters.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: But how do we reframe things and let them understand really why we do the things that we do?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: So let's continue and pick up this conversation here with myself, nick Brunicini and Terry Garrison.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: The evolution of a firefighter joining a fire department and then promoting through it and the rest of it is you've got to train them to be successful in those roles.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: So like going from firefighter to company officer, that was a step and you had to learn.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is what I'm doing, and if you did it because I did it early in the thing and most of it wasn't to be the boss, it's just that I didn't want them to be my boss.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: So that motivated a lot of us yeah.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: But you get to that point and you think, ok, now I can actually manage this attack the way I think it needs to be managed.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: So you're a task.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: It took a while to figure out.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: I'm the task level boss here, I'm not the nozzleman anymore.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody else, in fact I need them to do that so I can do what I need to do.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Well, it's an even bigger change when you go from company officer to battalion chief.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: So when I, when the group that I took the BC's test was once the test was over is they put us through two different BC academies Mercury Moore's put one on, and then the A shifters put the other on, hobel and company, and each of them were a week right.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: So we go through this thing and it's a week long and you got Mercury's was everything, and then the A-shift was just like tactics that you know that.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: So we get done with that.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: And then the first time I go off, there wasn't a spot for me.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: So they sent me up north because the guy who was typically up there was off for whatever reason and it probably had something to do with something he did.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like vacation or anything, and Sid was his aide.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: And so I get there and I'm like, hey, man, this is like a BC, but I had been a captain a long time, so it was the opposite of like becoming a captain.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: So it's like I knew, like tactically I knew probably more than Sid did at that point in my career.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: You know because you paid attention.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Well, and I was.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Just, I was in places where you got baked, more and all the rest of it.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: So I remember I sat in the like my office at seven, okay.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I looked around and at like nine o'clock Sid comes in and says do to go out?
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And I said, well, tell me the routine here.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: And you know, because it was dawn was.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: The guy says, well, usually we leave we would have left an hour ago and we get back here about six o'clock at night.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I said what are you doing?
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: He says he, he wanted to go visit every single station every shift and thought this is the biggest battalion in the city and and it's like 200 square miles and it was.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, that was your area.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: It had like 18 stations in it.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, why does he do that?
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: He says because he's the chief.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'm the chief now.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: And he says, uh-huh, what do you want to do?
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I said, well, just close the door.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: I'm going to look at this clock for another hour or two to think about it.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So, and I remember talking to my old man later on, about a year or two later, and he says, well, what'd you do?
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: I said well, I.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: I stayed at the 41 and talked to the helicopter crew for a little while and well, did you visit any stations?
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I said I was there for like a month and I think I went to six stations, but I had business at them.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Well, why don't you go visit your stations?
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Why, Well, just, you know you're the boss.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Well, don't they know that?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a battalion chief now and they're captains and firefighters, it's.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: They know who the boss is?
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's just kind of blah, blah, blah.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: And we talked long enough that he was finally like I'm done talking to you because I think you should go visit the stations, but you're kind of talking me out of that.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, that's wasted motion on my part.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: So if I'm going to go talk to him, he says you want to avoid where, like every time you show up, something bad happens.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Well, when something bad happens, I show up.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: That's kind of why people call 911.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I probably think more like your dad, a little bit but here's the deal.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: I was looking for somebody to talk me into it, but I couldn't find them.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: Well, here's the deal.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: We talked about perspective, right?
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: So this is all about perspective.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Why are you visiting the station?
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Well, you know why that guy visited the station.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, so he could remind him that he was in charge of them yeah and then he would rouse people around, then he would leave.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: You would go in the station with a different perspective.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Hey, I'm here, what you guys need, what's going on, I'll see you later.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: And you don't have.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: And I always thought I told my people, I asked them, I said, hey, if you could visit them like once a week.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: You know that way, when you do have an issue, that you got to go out there and be serious with them, they they're like that deal.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Your dad says every time they see you, they go here.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: He is what did we do wrong thing?
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: Just go out, see what they need.
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: Um, so there's a sweet spot in there, right?
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: and yeah, there is, yeah, there is.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: And what your?
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: perspective is when you go out there and then how they perceive you going out there.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: And there is some like I would would tell young battalion chiefs if you've got a captain that you just can't stand.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: And you had one visit them first.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I had more than one.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: Actually, I say visit them first in the morning, get it out of your way, go by and have a cup of coffee with the crew, because, just because you hate the captain, the crew likes seeing you because they hate the captain also.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: Just so, also, just so you know everybody, that guy you're not the only one yeah, and then you visit the crew and then you leave.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: But people would, because when I was a new battalion chief I would put that guy off to the end of the day or the end of the week and then I'd go and it ruined my entire evening.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: I would.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: I would leave like like that bad taste in my mouth.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: I'd go home I was like, no, I'm going to get the bad news out of the way.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: That's exactly how I did it, man.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: It's like anything bad I want to do first and then have fun on the back end.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't screw with the guy.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: I'm like I will see him sooner or later.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Well, you know his crew wants to see you though.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Well, when I got, I did the fill-in for about a month and then they sent me to the 3rd Battalion.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: I saw everybody at least once a week Because you were rolling with them, you were in a busy battalion and then we would train together.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: So you had more than enough opportunities.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: But I'll give you an example.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: There was a fire station and there was.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: On the weekends cars would cruise past the station.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: It became a social place Only because of the location of the station right there, cars just on the weekends, low riders, hot rods, whole thing, young kids, older people, ha ha ha.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: So you had a number of firefighters sitting outside on the bus bench in front of the fire station, you know, on the property there, and you know they're.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: So you start to hear things about the station and you're like oh OK, so you hear something.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: I go by the station then, like during the day, no cruisings going on.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I go by the station, then Like during the day, no cruisings going on.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: And you know you just kind of hang out talking to the captains and you're like you know there's a lot of like on fire calls.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: We get there, we transfer a command to do a set of things so you guys don't get killed while you're doing your job, so you can focus, you can micromanage your task level.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: So strategically, we got the whole big picture and I said it's my job as the battalion chief here to make sure you don't kill yourself while you're on duty.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: There's other ways to kill yourself and I said, just for an example, like if there was everybody's having a good time and all of a sudden the outside good time ends up, good time in the parking lot or the station dorm, that's death.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: And I said, if that happens and it gets blown up and you have to react, I said the people that are going to die first are the captains and you kind of.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: And so then you stop talking.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: What's your point?
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: They knew what your point was.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Finally we get it.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, see you later.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: I did that four or five times over a period of four or five years and never had an issue.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: I mean that kind of was enough.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Now I guess if it kept going, then you're at the point where, okay, I'm going to have to intervene and just be frank with you guys.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: you set the expectation well, and you're also talking about the consequences which I think a lot of times when we're talking about the perspective, people aren't talking about the consequences of what's going to happen exactly and I context it, and I it's my job to save you is to make you effective as you could be, and then to save you from yourselves at some point you've seen it before you saw that happen.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: oh, exactly, no, no, no, I used it.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: You have to know sin to fight sin.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, well, I worked in fire stations where you, the captain, would go out to his camper and you're like or it doesn't smell right in the dorm, what's going on here?
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: So, because you hire human beings and that's what you be shifters man.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Well, my dad said firefighters, most occupations by young, narrowly challenged males.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: They're always hungry and horny, that's just they're always hungry and horny, that's just they're always consuming.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: So he used to say he wants us to be celibate and sober for 24 hours.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: That's all we expect.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: You know, you talk about consequences and it's important to distinguish consequences is not threatening.
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Yes, Cause that cause, I've had that no those are predictions.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: If you do this, I'm going to write you up or you're going to get fired.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: That's bullshit.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Don't do that.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: That's cookie cutter.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: But the way you did is, if this continues, something negative is going to occur, because I've had fire captains tell firefighters here's what's going to happen, and then that didn't happen, and then they lose that opportunity too.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Then the issue doesn't become what that firefighter did.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: The issue becomes that fire captain got that shoved up his arse.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: However, that happened, so you got it right.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: So I knew what you meant when you said consequences.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: I just want to make sure that the listeners, as a BC, I.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: I wasn't in charge of consequences.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: So I had situations where, like crews did things they shouldn't have done and it's OK, this is, you guys laid hands on each other, you can't fist fight in the station.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: So you're both suspended, just go home.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And they said well, are we getting paid?
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I said that ain't up to me, I don't care.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I do care.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: And if it's up to me, no, you're not going to get paid for at least two or three weeks.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: But they do.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I said I'm not in charge of that and there's an investigation.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: That's going to be first you go, you go home right now and do not come back to work until somebody from the fire department calls you.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: I can do that and I know that that I'm okay there.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So I call the shift commander, say hey, such and such and this is going on.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: I need two people to report.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: And then it goes to personnel and there's, oddly enough, two months.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: It was all retroactive.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: They docked two weeks pay and did what they did Because I knew, based on what they were doing, what the outcome was.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I said, no, you guys, you already screwed the pooch in this thing and I guess maybe Vance to answer your question is I knew that, but I had been there for 24 years and thought I know what's going to happen to you and they're like bullshit man, you're just going to stick that straight up your ass.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: It's going to go up yours and out your mouth before it comes in mine, pal, and it will kill you if it comes into me.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: So you know, Nick, you said that deal where you send them home and you like to use fire ground analogies to in the hazard zone Same thing.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you too in the hazard zone.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Same thing.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you need to get off the hazard zone.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: There's a mayday.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: There's a mayday going on and we're going to fix it right now.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: But I've told fire crews one captain in particular is load your crew up because he freelanced.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they didn't have a really strong command system when I got there, so you know this was a learning opportunity for everybody.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: So go tell the fire captain on the ladder company to get his crew and go back to the station.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: He's no longer on this incident.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what?
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: But he always does that.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why he's going home.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: That's why he's going back to the station and I'll go talk to him at the station.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: But you got to have that and he thought he was in charge of you, that captain and that you can't do this.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: And then what it did is it completely turned his world upside down, because it's like, oh no, I have a boss now and and I think that's it like that's news to some people like, oh, there's actually people in charge of me yes well, that'll happen at that captain level and at the battalion chief tactical level.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: When tactical chief finds out that their assistant the boss, that they have a boss.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: You mean, I can't control my entire district or battalion the way I want to, I got a boss up there.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you do, because it's got to look like yours, needs to look like the rest of the system, right.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think what your boss, like you're a battalion chief what your boss wants is everybody to do as good as they can and then to go home at the end of the day, and so that's accountability for them.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And then so they want you to manage that way.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: And then, like others, like, let's say, that ladder captain's like no, no, I do this, and what you have to do is support me in it you're like no, no, I'm your boss, this is what this looks like.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: So, and we've had conversations with those people and they don't seem to understand that until they put themselves in the position to test it, and and they found out with you that that a chief in a car outranks a captain on a roof.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: basically, it kind of reminded me and I've used this analogy before because I love my brother.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: He's passed away now, but he used to come up to me and he'd say Terry, don't get mad at me, can I have 20 bucks?
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: And I'd say, michael, don't get mad at me.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: The answer is no.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Well, who got mad yeah?
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Well, who got mad?
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that's like when a battalion chief talks to a captain and the captain's being an idiot for whatever, doing something that's inappropriate, and then the battalion chief says something to him he's like who gets mad?
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: The captain gets all butthurt.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Hey man, why are you telling me to act like that?
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: Because it's the right way to act?
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: Just quit doing that, quit running with scissors or whatever the hell you're doing, because you're going to get hurt.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I think out of the three of us I have more direct contact with the young firefighters still coming in because of the part-time job that I'm doing, and these 25-year-olds.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: So exactly what you're saying about the consequences I've been here 25 years.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I know this is what's going to happen.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: We have to take that to the fire ground with our fire ground message, whether it's risk management or anything else, because again, that's where the perspective is.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: We've seen it happen.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I'm having a talk with a 25-year-old last week about and I love what if-ing.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: You know I'll sit down with them and we're just having coffee at the station.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Well, that's at the inside of fire stations to score, right it's exploring the universe.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: So they're doing construction and all this other stuff's going on in our first do and I said what if we had a fire in this building?
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Where would you go in?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: And he goes well, yeah, if we get a fire here, I think I would trench, cut the roof never never, never.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Where'd you hear the word?
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: yeah, yeah, you saw it on a video where, like six guys from la are doing it, we have two and three person companies.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: The building is going to burn down.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: If, in my area, we're trench cutting a roof on a commercial structure, it ain happening.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about reality right now.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: You know, let's come back.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: This isn't YouTube.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: What are we going to do?
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: And they need to be reframed from that because they're getting.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: These guys today are smarter, they are better, they take better care of themselves.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: I think, well, they got instant answers right here.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: Right, they can go get the answer to anything right there.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: And my point to the leaders out there is you need to give them that perspective, because you own that perspective and they don't have it yet.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: They have a lot of other good things going for them, but they don't have that perspective.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's true.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: See, but part of that's a product of experience, and there's no way you can get the only way you can short track experiences through training, realistic training and that kind of will set the stage for it.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: But then that has to be like revalidated, with actual application, and so that's where the performance management model comes in, and just we keep, and that's the way we refine the thing, and so you'll hear fire.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: You hear fire.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Why are we changing anything?
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And you think, well, everything has to change all the time.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: That's the way it gets better.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Well, no, we don't agree with that.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the way the union negotiates for us.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: So when I came on the fire department, we made this much money and now we make this much because of all this progress we made.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Well, that's positive change, sir.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: That's what we're for and, yeah, we're for positive change in everything.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Our tactics have improved.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: All of this should get better and better.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: That's the way.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: That's maybe why we're born onto this planet is to figure out better ways to do things, and maybe that ends up better ways to treat and get along with one another, where we all kind of get what we want out of this thing.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Now, if what you want is to grift and to have a bunch of that ain't going to be sustainable here because we're a public safety agency.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: We're not a football team or anything else.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: We deliver service to Mrs Smith.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: In fact, I wonder how, like the young people, many of them would take a few.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Let them know that you are the largest chunk of government yeah, it's the fire department, you're, you and the cops are the largest chunk public safety of local government, and if we put all those local governments together we overwhelm all.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: The states don't even measure up, and so the states are in a position especially the one we live in where they're pissed off at the cities and we're going to tell you what to do because we're the state ease and and then you got thes and God knows what's spinning that wheel today.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: So there's just no rhyme or reason to any of it.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: So you come back in your closed little fire department shell and really that's kind of odd where you think this makes the most sense Because it all sticks to the laws of nature.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Everything we do Fire, ems, hazmat, tech, rescue, highly technical occupations based on science and knowledge yeah, so we should embrace that.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: No, you're right, and when you were talking, you made me think of something we should probably add here.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: It's most successful when the labor group and the administration work together for the common goal, and that's I mean that eliminates so many problems.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: You don't have to be a fire chief who's a union puppet.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: That's ridiculous.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: They have their role, you have your role and you're going to disagree about some issues.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: I agree with the labor group.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Every time they say firefighters need more money, why wouldn't you?
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: I mean all boats rise.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get a pay raise too right?
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Hey, man, during our careers, pat can tell me God, everybody that works for the city of Phoenix more money, including the city manager, the mayor, everybody.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: I still get more money because of him.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: We just got to this is the way.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: One at a time.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: One at a time.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: One at a time System process.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: You capture it all.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: You focus your energy.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: It's almost a military deal.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: It's like no, this is the way we're going to exercise the power we have First of all, create it and then to use it in a positive manner.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: So it's important for a fire chief to understand what a union president is working on and say, OK, I get what you're working on over there and I'm going to stay out of your way with that, unless it's something I just totally disagree with.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: I'm going to stay out of your way with that unless it's something I just totally disagree with.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: But I think it's just as important for a union president to understand what's important to the fire chief Firefighter safety and customer service and here's the way we're going to do that and get the union president on board with you.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: So when you bring into these programs like the blue card, where you want to train the system in how to be more effective on the fire ground, You've got the union president marching right with you and saying, yeah, that is better for our member.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: The best thing they say union presidents want to take care of their members.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: Helping them survive is a really good way to take care of people.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Well, we were just talking about that today.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: The person in the large fire department doing blue card, who just took over blue card, is the former union president.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: So, I mean that's an excellent example of the leadership of the fire department pushing it forward.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Well, and I want to say, if you're in a department that's either like paid on call firefighters, non-unionized.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: My first eight years of fire chief we didn't have a union.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: But what we did in my first year was we made I call it a relations committee, a member from each shift and they would get the input and then they'd all get together with me and we'd talk about stuff.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: You know whatever it was, and that was the same issues that the union wanted.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: A lot of times it was, you know, retiree health care, and you know, I think the only difference is in a labor group, they formally recognize this person is representing us.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: But in an informal system, they could get together and say these people represent us and they stay connected that way, because that's all you're doing is, like you said, coming together like this.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Well, it's hard to get everybody together like this, but when you got a person that's standing up representing all that and you just kind of grab that person and their responsibilities to connect with all, that's labor, right, I mean, that's, that's the way I see it anyway, because they were, they are elected to represent that group of people, that group of firefighters.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: And the way you did it is you just identified people that were motivated and they could, you know, speak complete sentences and they represented their groups.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And they play off each other.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: So, like, a lot of unions will come out against safety stuff.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: So an example of that is like in our careers we had day boots and then we went away from day boots.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Jeff Griffith fell in an attic no more day boots.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Well, that was before he fell in the attic.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: We had a couple of close calls before then Fire chief said no more day boots.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think the union president really gave a shit.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: To be honest, that way, our union president was a politician for the fire department and he was very good at what he did.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: So he thought well, he's the fire chief, that's his decision to make.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Well, it was, the workforce is like how You're going to kill us, you're killing us by taking the day boots away.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is just the level of idiocy that the herd has and so you can't do that.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: When you're like yeah, they can, he's the fire chief, that's his job.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Well, the union stayed out of it.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: And they're like let it tell me new, this is a loser right here.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: If I come out for him in favor of this, they're all going to go crazy and I can just shut up and he can do what he's going to do and I'm not going to say anything about it.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I didn't get involved with pension talk yeah, he stayed in his lane.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Fire chief stayed in his lane.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: So what happened is they just listened to all the bullshit, right, and it happened for months leading up to this there was a deal.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Well, it started with the shoes steel steel toe shoes and then it went to day boots.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, that was I thought the other order no, it was steel toe boots first, and then day boots went away, but it was, it was hand in hand now, day boots for those of us that don't know what galoshes so waders.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: So that was uh, you wouldn't have to wear bunker pants yeah, you had just regular pants on in a long jacket.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: They were rubber boots that folded down.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like pull-up boots and you'd fold them up.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were like fishing waders.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and mine and everybody over 5'9".
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: between your boot and your jacket, you had an open space where you'd leave when back, then we would wear the Nuvos yeah.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: And water.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: They burn Water went in.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: They were terrible, but I was one of the guys that said don't get rid of our day boots because they're just so simple.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, they would just.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I have a picture of a fire chief out in front of a house two weeks ago in day boots and a long coat.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah they're still wearing them out there.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: We go through this whole thing and it's Civil War, wildcat strikes going to happen with day boots, day boots and the steel toe shoes, some combination of the two, and so it was like a throwdown.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And the fire chief says no, we've tried to process this through the process we have with these committees and they just refuse to do it because they can't let go of the past.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: So what we're going to do is September 1st, and so this is like June, july.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: He says everybody's going to be outfitted on September 1st.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: If we see anybody in day boots, the captain's going home and they're coming back to whatever rank they were before.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: They were a captain, right, because you had these old senior captains.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Just mouth won't tell me what to do.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: September 1st came and because they were, they said no, he's going to send me home.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: You know how many of them showed up September 1st in day boots?
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Zero, because they're all talk.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: That's what it is.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And see, as a young chief, you think, oh, I can't upset them because they'll talk, but who gives a shit what they say?
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Uh-uh.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: In fact, sometimes it's fun just to piss them off when they're doing stupid things and what happened two weeks after.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: We had those pants.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Everybody loved them oh, it was, it was, it was next day, and you know what they did Is, over a period of just a little bit, they thought no, don't argue with him.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: He's the fire chief.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: That's his job.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: When I'm working out in my fire station now in my gym shorts, I don't have to run in and put on my Nuvos and my day boots.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: I just need to pull up my turnout pants.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Oh, I love this.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: This is a better system.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: So.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Vance, when you just do your job and fill your role, that has huge advantages because it just became the way we did business.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I remember I was a brand new captain and we had remodeled part of our fire station inappropriately and it was.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: You know, the colors didn't match or something, but it was nothing that anybody would notice.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: But you know the rule keepers, they can't do this stuff, so they're processing all this stuff and there were posters hanging up of like like a shifters men and women.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: You know what they look like and you know girls riding tigers and you know all chiseled abs and bunker pants and the rest, and somebody made the comment they said you know these like pulpy posters were hanging up in the station.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: We're not opposed to them but you know they could cause some problems with like the public coming in and other other firefighters may not like them, so let's not make a big deal out of it.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: But would you go back to the station, would you just replace it with something else, just something that you know people can't bitch about?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: And like a month later they were all down.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: And then I remember a couple months after that, another one went up and kind of a public way and somebody bitched about it and they went to the station and they said no, no, no, no.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: We agreed just to take these down.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Just take it down, don't put it back up.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, nobody wrote anything down, nobody got in trouble.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Just keep them down.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: There's no formal no-tiger policy yeah, exactly, and so that's kind of the way they manage the fire department, because they put the front end work of establishing.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Here's how these processes work.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: Nick, you did it with our silverback leadership when you decided and you did it, I'm going to give you credit for it but we had the eight functions of leadership and you said, no, the very first chapter needs to talk about the work, because everything else needs to focus on the work.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why we're here.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: And that makes so much sense.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: And I think, if you can describe whatever you're describing whether you're a captain, a battalion chief or a fire chief to somebody to improve whatever they're doing and you tell them this is how it impacts the work in a positive way, it's going to be, you're going to be okay.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: The work overcomes all the differences in diversity in the group.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it bonds us together and it was because of the work that they were able to do the thing with the posters.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: No, just take them down.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Don't do that anymore.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Be nice to each other, quit being mean.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, that was that's kind of what we managed around.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: It was andbody did what they were supposed to.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Based on that.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: And then there was a—and it was actually written in our Firefighter Survival Guide that we'll share with our program also.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: But it was written that fire captains can't overlook safety violations.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Battalion chiefs do not have the option not to follow up on those.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: So it became that kind of became the policy for the entire organization.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: When you did something silly, whatever it was, it wasn't written.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: But if you do something silly, someone's going to talk to you about that.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: If you do this, if you have whores in your station, don't be surprised if somebody tells you don't have them in your station.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: No, you can't.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: See, that's kind of the world we live in.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: It's a public facility, a fire station, because it's paid for through the local body politic, property taxes, yada, yada, yada.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: At the same time, that's the residential unit where those firefighters live and that is their station and they take possession of it.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: And you want them to have ownership.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, see, but it's you guys.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: This is your station, but you were taking care of it for the public and they will end up in here occasionally, so you can't deny entrance to the.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: This is the communities.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: But it got to the point where you knew that a supervisor when they were and it didn't always work right, so, but when you talk to somebody about poor performance, they weren't surprised that you were talking to them and really that's where you want to get to in an organization, when somebody does something so out of whack that everybody else is going.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: Did you see that?
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: I mean, you would see it in meetings where you'd have 20 or 30 people and somebody would do something so stupid and everybody would go what are you going to do about that?
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: But you know, if you gave them a list of names and said, pick who did it, everybody would circle the right name.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: But that would be the challenge, right?
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: You'd get a new chief officer and he'd be in there with Captain Knucklehead and then they'd go.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: Let's see how a new guy does with this.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Well, in the oral they would just use the name this is the guy working for you.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: What are you going to do?
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: And you're like, oh Jesus.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Nobody else has been able to tame that one, but you've got to try.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah Well, I'm sending him home.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it's not your fault, but it's your problem now.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Exactly yeah, you've got to do something.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: You said it, you've got to own the problem.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that you it stuck with me was you know you got Bobby backstep firefighter who is going to question every strategic decision the IC makes, and you know they want to go in and hard charging and they're hormonally challenged and everything else, yeah, but you said that person doesn't have to cash the check.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: No, so what?
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: And let's let's explore that for a moment.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: See, like, when you an incident scene, somebody is in charge of that incident, whoever it is.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: If it's an EMS call, it's the officer of the rig in.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: The paramedics basically Co-manage the thing.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: However they do An incident where it's like a structure fire, that's going to be.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: The strategic presence there owns it, that's theirs.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Like Garrison said, you've got to own it, so you actually take command of the thing.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Well, now you've got.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Look at the NFPA 1700.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: What is it?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: 18 people for a structure fire in a 2,000-square-foot house.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: 18 people.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: There is two, hopefully at least one, hopefully two people in the command post that are managing that structure fire.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: They own it.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: They signed the back of that check.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: The IC is the poster child for that incident.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: So whatever happens to that incident is that's who they're going to associate it with, not Bobby Backstab, who?
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Cheap noise is all that is.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: As the old guy said, they boo the loudest from the cheapest seats.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: So and you got to be able to filter that out and think no, I'm the strategic presence here.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Pal, that building's going to the dump and you don't get to like do your recreational firefighting here.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: So you're going to be in the cold zone pumping water onto the hot zone You're not going to go in.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Well, that is what it is.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: And let them bitch, let them complain.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: That's it's.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: It's it's.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: Complaining is a way that people off gas whatever's going on in their life.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: The pilot doesn't care what I'm saying as a passenger in the back of the plane.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: No they don't, they don't care, no, they really.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: And in fact, if you get too loud, they're gonna throw you off that he'll be on a no-fly list in no time exactly son of a gun, hit another.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: If you're disruptive enough, you're gonna learn how to take the bus, right, yeah, so that's kind of it.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: You're the adult of the thing, you're the one in charge of that.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: If you know you've got a kid that's going to grab the steering wheel when you're driving, don't put them in the front seat.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: No Right.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, you've got to manage those things because you own that incident and you need to place people in there.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Well and that can be something that you're always having to fix is people taking the wrong actions, it thinks, because they're going to kill themselves?
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: And it's like no, we don't.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: I'm on the scene, fully involved, taking an inch and a half inside offensive.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: You think no, no, no, no, no, no time out.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: That doesn't line up with reality.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: What you're saying and in fact what you're saying and in fact what you're going to do, is you're going to hurt other people.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: So now I become complicit if I just allow that to happen.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: That's the key.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of the other thing.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Now, vance, you go to like Canada, and if somebody gets hurt doing something they're not supposed to do, the fire chief is criminally responsible for that.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: So it's not see, we'll say civil, they're responsible here civilly because, like, if your family sues you do something stupid as a firefighter, get toasted in the line of duty, your family has the right to process that legally.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: And we're seeing more and more of that happening.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Like, well, if you're the fire chief and you're not going to manage this and my loved one gets hurt because of your inaction, what that's going to do is that's going to cost your employer a ton of money and legal exposure.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Because now in other countries it's like no, no, no, no, you've reached another benchmark, chief.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: We've done that with driving in the US.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: We're like, if you're an emergency responder and you cause a fatal accident, you're probably going to go to prison for that.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah Well, in Canada, the fire chief is going to go with you.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: So what it is is strategic leadership.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Says no, we don't allow this to take place here anymore.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Says no, we don't allow this to take place here anymore.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: But the least organization to do is should do is when that engineer does something where he's speeding or she's speeding and cause a problem, they should be held accountable and the captain sitting up in the front seat.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: We've done that organizationally.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we were too lax with that.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like when they did like you roll a ladder truck coming back from a call, that guy probably shouldn't be the engineer ever again.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I would say if you're going to drive anything, it's not going to be much past an ammo and the captain needs to be the co-pilot.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Well, and the captain wasn't even on the truck because he was well.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: And the captain wasn't even on the truck because he was Well.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: And then, see, you get into like just the details, like the family history of the department you worked for, and so again, that's where you start putting names to this and, like in the Silverback we talk about there's 10 personality types in the fire department and that's it.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: There's 10 or 12.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: And they're the same 10 or 12 in every single fire department.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: And so this thing I'm building now that's kind of where it's going.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: It's saying no, no, no.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: All fire departments have the same exact people working for them.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Every one of them does.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Now they may have different concentrations of them.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: The difference between fire departments is the leadership, especially at the top.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: This is what I represent as the fire chief in charge of this whole organization and this is what this is going to look like.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: So that's the difference from department to department.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: We'd use our own department as an example.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: We were role models forever and over a series of fire chiefs, they're a regular fire department.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: Again, it's like no, they have.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: This is the difference.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Was it took, it took a well, it took generations to get it where it was.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: And then, when you have an absence, it's imagine if you stopped doing EMS training.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: There's no more for paramedics or EMTs, that you just you guys keep it on your own.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: What's that going to look like six months from now?
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: Well our EMS standards.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not going to do any of it.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: We're just going to stick with what we learned whenever you took your basic training During the Civil War.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, take a drink of whiskey and then, just yeah, you're putting mask pants on people.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Rub dirt on it, yeah, yeah.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Bite the block.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: Well, that's what happens with firefighting.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Because there's nothing like.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: The young guy goes through the academy and gets nothing else, they promote to company officer.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: There's no further training.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Do you look at officer one and two, three and four?
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: There's no fire ground training in any of it.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: You don't get the fire ground.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: No one agrees on it.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: You know why?
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Because there's not a standardized.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Well, there is, there is, but there is no, there's no mandate to do it.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: There's nothing that causes a fire department to actually train their members past firefighter one and two and structural firefighting.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: So that's, and that is why it's the wild west when you, we do the three other service types and those, most fire chiefs couldn't tell you how much they spent.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I've asked fire chiefs how much you spend keeping your people certified ems wise.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know how much you spend doing firefighter train.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: We spent five thousand dollars last year doing this and it was bullshit.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Well, you spent $50,000 on EMS training.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: You don't even understand or know or care about that.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: So, over here, this little thing that you do, the least amount, that carries the highest risk but has the most identifiable juice for us, and that's whatever I.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Uh-uh, that ain't going to work, pal us and that's whatever I.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: That ain't going to work, pal.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: So now, if you say there's 35 fire, 35,000 fire departments in North America, right, that's the number they keep throwing out there.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: That means there's 35,000 different ways that they're managing the structural fire response.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: And there's really two or three ways you're doing that.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Most of it's you're either doing NIMS, you're doing Blue Card or you're freelancing.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, we do the SOP 1A72.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a freelancing manual, that's what it is.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: The companies go where they think they need to go.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: There's no single incident action plan and the rest of it.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: So you don't have a process.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: So everybody's operating at a disadvantage in those systems because there's no way to fix anything or to make it better.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: In fact, it's almost like the fire chiefs sabotage it intentionally to keep it the way it is so they don't have to do anything with it.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: But the problem is, is that's where your biggest Mistakes happen.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: The most costly consequences are on the fire ground.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: Well you care about your members.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: Take care of them.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: So I mean you're unnecessarily exposing them to things they don't need to be exposed to, and those same people that will spout off that craziness are the same people that say well, I love my firefighters, Then why wouldn't you want them to survive another incident?
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: And what they'll do is they say, well, look at all the decomming we do.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: On the back end they say, okay, after the fire's over you clean their gear, but during the thing you won't manage the strategy while they're actually in the shadow of death.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: What you're going to do is you're going to try to keep them from getting cancer when they retire.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: But if they die on duty, we'll throw you a great funeral and we'll give your widow a flag and it's all.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: It's just part of the job.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: And you're like no, it isn't part of the job, it's yeah.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: And in this case you don't, which I've seen.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: You don't give the widow the flag, you give the parents.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: That is unfreaking, believable when you got a young firefighter who passed away, not even old enough to get married yet, and for whatever reason, the system may have failed them, and now you're handing a flag to the mom or the dad.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: And then you go back and think, ok, the incident they died in, what did we save?
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: No, they hauled it all we knew when we got there.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: I'll go back to the fenced off deal.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: It's going to the dump.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Well, there's no adult there.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: And they're like well, no, I had it, I had the strategy, they just weren't doing it.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: And you're like well, no, you're.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: You're like the teacher where they're all going crazy in the class and you're still writing math problems on the board and they're killing each other.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: It takes another set of skills here to diffuse this.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: I was a fire chief starting at a younger age and probably one of the best things that put my job into perspective for me is we're having lunch at the station one day and there's two brothers that worked at the fire department and their dad came in to lunch.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: So the dad's there, we all have lunch together, we get done.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: He goes hey, can I talk to you for a minute?
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: So he goes in my office, he shuts the door.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is gonna be interesting and he was a retired firefighter, so I, so I I knew him from that and he got, and he, he got tears in his eyes and he goes.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: You know, I need to trust you with my boys and I hope you take good care of them and look out.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Wow, you gave me the chills.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: That's's a big deal and this guy was serious.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a big deal.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: And that reframed my job for me so much.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Going forward from that is because I was thinking his name is Bernie.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about Bernie when I'm making decisions or I'm being the fire chief, and it's like we have parents, to your point, that are counting on us to send those kids back home.
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: Every time that we have a graduation ceremony at the academy and you're up there and you're looking out at the family members.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: You're responsible for that as a fire chief, right?
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: Yep?
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: You're responsible for every one of those family members the moms, the dads, the husbands, the wives, the children, and you shouldn't get wound up in that.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: You should just know that that's your responsibility implement processes and cultures that keep them safe and then carry that out and continue to improve that, because we don't do that enough?
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: No, you see, and you got to process this.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Like you said, vance, you're the chief and the parent comes to you and says okay, you're taking care of my loved ones.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: That's what I expect of you, see, and now the system has to have support that with processes where you could do it.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: So I'm a BC in your system.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Well, now, what I look at is I don't really see them as okay.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do a certain set of things to keep you as safe as I can, jimmy, because your dad told Vance what I do is I look at how are we going?
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: I'm in charge of this response to this structure fire.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: I have been to enough of these structure fires where Blue Card applies standard actions to standard conditions to achieve a standard outcome.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: I did this long enough where I could pull up and there's no task level units there and I could tell you what the outcome was going to be before we did any actions.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: I could say, based on the current incident conditions, we're going to do these three things in this order and sequence and, 10 minutes from now, this is where we're going to be in this thing, right, and so it was all about effectiveness, as I'm going to show up and I'm going to do this as well as quickly all those things that I can do, and I'm going to do this as well as quickly all those things that I can do and see, because I grew up in this system and we have been using this as the process to manage this is I understand what our capabilities and limitations are of like science, of this set of conditions, this set of conditions.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: I pull up to the scene of a 25,000 square foot wood frame building that has a wide span roof, wooden roof structure on it and 30% of the roof is free burning right now and it's got some defensive vents that have happened.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: I can tell you in 30 minutes that building is going to be on the ground.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: There's nothing you're going to do offensively to save it.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: Ever I've been to 300 of those fires and every one of them ended the same way and, depending on the contents, it could be a lot less.
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: A loser's a loser Massive collapses the whole thing.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: I don't need to.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, we're going to do this and this offensively.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: No, I'm going to start defensive because there's nothing there to save Now.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: If there's anyway, you put the critical factors in and you just load it all up and there you go.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: So that becomes like almost the problem with that is it becomes standard and you're like you can get surprised with standard things and think, well, I missed this and this is why this happened.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: So it's still dynamic enough that you have to keep your guard up all the time and always be sizing the thing up.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the way you keep your promise to the dad who said take care of my kids.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: We, your kids, are going to operate in this system when they're at the scene of a fire.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: I have full faith in this because I can tell you how much I spend training, the time I spend training and the effect of that training.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of the way you manage that.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: It's well, one, one more question for you guys, and then we'll get to our timeless tactical truth.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Well, one more question for you guys, and then we'll get to our timeless tactical truth.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: So what is your go-to message then for leaders out there, emerging leaders, captains, chiefs, people on their way up, when they have those smart, aggressive young firefighters who haven't lived through the perspective yet?
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: when they don't have that perspective.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: What's a message that we can give those, those emerging leaders, on how to deal with that?
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: You train them.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: That that's where we, that's where we made our biggest deals was in a training setting, when we wanted to fix something or change something or make it better or educate people, as you had.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: And see, going back to like the beginning of this is okay, you go to this station, this station and this station well, I figured out my time's better spent in training settings and then, actual, get out of the truck at the scene of the incident and own it.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: It's come out and this is what we do and why we do it.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: So that's the way I would approach it right there, to begin with.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: And I would say use the system that we have.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: And the system isn't something out there, it's tangible that you grab the system is simply tell them what you expect from them.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: It matches the organizational expectations firefighter safety, customer service.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: Ask them if they know how to do that they need any more explaining or training on that and then watch them, do it from a distance, don't micromanage them and don't be an asshole about it.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: And then, if you see them do something wrong, you step in and correct it in the best, kindest way you can, depending on the hazard.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: If it's in a hazard zone, the quickest way you can to fix that.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: And then, if they did something right, tell them nice job, do that again, because that's what I want to see you do.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: And it's just that simple, just like you would with your.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: I hate to call firefighters kids, but it's the same thing.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: It's the adult.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: Be the adult and help them be successful.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: Be the adult and help them be successful.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: And remember that the reason you took the position of leadership is to support you.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: Support that supervision is a support position.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: So help them out.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: Don't be a dick.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Help them out.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: It's about application at that point and the application is experience.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: So they say experience gives the test before, ahead of the lesson.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: So that that's.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: So.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Our job is to give them the lesson to kind of, at least it gets them ready to start absorbing experiences and then make sense of that.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: But that's kind of the see, like on the task level, a young firefighter coming in.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: If they pass the academy, they understand the task level evolutions that they're going to be part of.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: So that's where it begins.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: And you think I've had incidences where, like we're doing after action reviews for our mental health, because just the shitty set of critical factors we had to deal with and that was kind of the thing I kept coming back to is they're like well, this is horrible and you know how could we?
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: You know, just, you wonder, how does the world?
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: You know, mom set her kids on fire?
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: How's that happen?
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: And just the unique set of things that you see.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Well, people are going to have trouble processing some of those kind of evil things that they see during the course of a shift.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: So what I came back to in the thing is well, you got there first, what did you do?
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: Well, it was cooking, so we laid a line.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's good.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: So you had an uninterrupted water supply.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Then what did you do?
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Well, we got dressed because we were coming back from an EMS call.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: And then we did X, y and Z and it took us like 30 seconds to get our shit on and actually get the line off.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: And you know those kids are burning.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Then you're like, well, what's the academy say for pulling an inch and a half attack line?
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Well, two minutes and 30 seconds, okay.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: So you did it in the 30 and had your shit on.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: You had water going in 45.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh, hey, man, if I was a burning kid, 45 seconds.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: How long did it take to get everybody to the hospital?
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Well, they were there.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Four patients transported before 30 minutes was up, they were at the hospital.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: So you start writing it on the board and say, here's your critical factors, here's the outcome.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: You couldn't have done this any better.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Man, babe Ruth was knocking them over the fence, yeah, but everybody died.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: We're all going to die.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry to say that, but that's you.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: How many dead people you guys see last month?
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: Well, we saw four or five, you know, with that heart attack and this and that.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: You know, this is so horrible.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: You think it is.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: You're right it's.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: It's wretched.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: I I can't explain that, but we got called to fix it.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: you fixed it you can't outperform somebody who wants to do something so incredibly evil before you're even dispatched but at that point exactly but at that point that everybody came together based on the work.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: It was like okay, the work saved us here.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Only one of them went home that day and he was taking advantage.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: Because they want to sit.
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, you almost have to force them to go home.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: Sometimes we're talking about it's a good idea Some systems you're going to go home, that's a strong system.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: That's a that's powerful.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: When you can, you come out of that thing and it's three hours later, everybody's doing regular service delivery again.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: It's, it's, it's, it's crazy.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: I've seen the opposite.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: We're like cops, there's nothing, and they, they have a horrible incident and it involves them Like some of them died, and now they have to go back and you're like what are you guys doing?
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Well, we have to go back to work.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: What?
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have to go back to work and pull people over.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't want to be.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to be the first person that gets pulled over after that.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Baby yeah.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: You know what would you do?
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: Give us yours.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: So mine's consistent and constant messaging, and I think a lot of times leaders forget that.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: So so, as far as being consistent, it's, you have expectation level and you maintain that, so people know what to expect from you on a daily basis.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: And the consistent messaging is a simple message, just like what we've learned from Bruno.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Mine was be safe, be effective, be nice.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: My mom was leaving to go to the car wash last week and a storm or no, there was something going on in town and I say, hey, be careful out there.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: And she goes and I'll be effective and nice.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: So she's heard from me enough that she knows Cause that's.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: That was my entire career.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: Entire career was three things.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: That's what I wanted out of everybody.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: Three's good and I said it all the time.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: And you know we're going through a thing right now with the department I'm working with about vision and stuff, and I was telling the company officers I said every day you have a vision.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be the fire chief's vision or where the new station's going to be located, or when are we getting the next new fire truck or where the new station is going to be located or when are we getting the next new fire truck.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: Make the vision about the job that we have to do today.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: We're going to treat our customers with respect, we're going to be safe in everything that we do and we want positive outcomes, whatever that is.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: But you can't just state it once and I think a lot of times people make the mistake of saying well, I said it already.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: If you're the leader, you got to say it every day.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you know the old man you got to live it.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: We're cutting his videos up.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: You know, putting the silverback thing together.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: The last one I saw he was talking about that.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: He says when I became the fire chief, I was doing these meetings to get everybody up to speed.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: He says I retired 28 years later I was doing the same damn meetings to get him up.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: He says you never can stop doing it.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: It never stops.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: See, you guys have the personality for that, you care, you're engaged.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: It becomes the ongoing thing that you keep pushing out.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: That's the fire chief has to have that level of involvement.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: It took me a while to learn it, though, well, and you guys did.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: I am happy.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: I was never a fire chief for those reasons of involvement.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: It took me a while to learn it, though, well, and you guys did.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I am happy.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I was never a fire chief for those reasons I could do what I wanted to do.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: I was always better a little bit lower in the organization.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: But you had a consistent message lower in the organization.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I did what I was supposed to in my thing.
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: People know what to expect from you when you sat on a bench with those guys at that station.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: You were sharing them once again.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they knew.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: No surprise, well, and I'm sure, like maybe a shift or two later, they're probably.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: Do you think he knows?
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I was here.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: He knows sin.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he can smell.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: All right, you guys want to do a timeless tactical truth.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Every time, hell.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Timeless tactical truth from Alan Bernasini, and this is from the archive file.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: These aren't from the cards.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: The farther back in the system you manage and measure, the more effective you will be.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: The farther back in the system you manage, measure, the more effective you will be.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: I think that's really talking about some of these performance issues and perspective.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit right vance coming out of the recovery process southwest supermarkets we did all the stuff right Incidents and shit, strategic tactical task.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: We were left with the task at the end and so we had gone through a set of experiences with the training committee about what we were doing and we were just authorized to do it.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: We were going to do it with the training committee about what we were doing and we were just authorized to do it, and we were going to do it.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: We were going back to that same training committee and saying there's some stuff in recruit training you need to fix to your point.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: We're going all the way back into the task level here, deep, deep back with air management and the way we look at that, and we're not doing the test of manhood anymore here on the grinder where you have to work till you shit your pants.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: And I went through 27 bottles of air on Tuesday and chopped 85 telephone poles in half and I've proven myself again.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: Well, when you transfer that same behavior over to the fire ground, you become a liability because you're running out of air all the time and staying in the hazard zone.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Well, it was issues like that is matching our tactics to today's buildings.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: So in the fire chief had already started a lot of that, but we were kind of picking up there.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: So now that would be just for structural firefighting.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: Going back to that piece of it, I think and I would just to build off that and I think that has to do with distance from the problem If you get, if you're up there next to the problem, wherever the problem is taking place.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: these are those old fire chiefs that say I got to be where the smoke is and where the heat is.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: But I think organizationally there's a lot to be said with that too, where fire chiefs and leaders, battalion chiefs, captains, need to take a step back and look at this without passion or prejudice.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: You've heard that before and don't get too emotionally.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: Clinically critical factors yeah.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: Just like you said, standard conditions, standard action, standard outcome.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: But you need to step back and look at some of these issues, and I remember the times that I was a fire chief.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: Where I got wound up a little bit is I got emotionally connected to the problem, whatever that problem was and I got too involved with it.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: And I think back to when I was in the military and this is a long time ago, right and I was a crew chief on a Huey and the way we used to time we didn't have timing lights for the main rotor or the tail rotor.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: So what we would do, true story is, the pilots would start up the rotors and they'd get them at a certain speed, and then we had a long broomstick with a piece of chalk on it and we would go right in.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: He would look at you and go and you try to hit one blade and you pull it down.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: You put everything down, say, okay, you hit the right blade, you hit this blade number one, we're going to raise that one up or bring this one down, and we did the same thing.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: So that wasn't so bad.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: But when we went to the back rotor and you're standing on this side of the tail and you got that same stick and that thing going and it's spinning at three times the speed of that and you're taking the stick to try to hit that.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: You're too close to the frickin' problem.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking why am I here?
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: There's got to be a better system of that.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: Too close to the problem is a problem.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: I want to use that example because when you said this, what was it in my life where I really felt like I was too close to realize how screwed up the situation is?
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: That's the way we did it back then.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: But fire chiefs need to step back.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: Leaders need to step back.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: Sometimes, like when you run up on somebody who's doing something wrong and just start screaming the shit at them.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: Or somebody comes in late and you're a captain and you go up and you start mounting them.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: Take a step back and say, okay, what's happening?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: Why are you late?
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm late because my grandma you know died on her way to Bar Mitzvah or whatever the hell that is.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: And then I'm late because or I'm doing it this way because you don't see what's happening here, and I just remember fire chiefs and supervisors.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: I've had not fire chiefs but battalion chiefs and supervisor on the way who would get up, come up and get on my ass as a young paramedic or young fire captain and start getting on my ass without saying, hey, would you?
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: here's why I'm doing this dumb ass.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, keep doing that.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: So I think sometimes we get too close to the problem and we need to back up and just take it in before we decide how we're going to manage this well, you got to define the problem fully before you figure out what kind of action you're going to use to solve it.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: So, like the late person is, it's it's not okay to be late, but there's a reason you're late and that's really kind of what you're managing at that point.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: And so like the guy who's you know his mom's dying of cancer and he had to do X, y and Z, you're like, okay, you've got some stuff going on in your life and should you even be here today?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe you should take a week or two off if this is going to be an end of life thing that you have to deal with, whereas like the 23 year old guy that shows up half an hour late because he just slept in, because I just was up too late last night, and well, that's a different set of critical factors.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: You won't know the difference until you slow down like an IC.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Go through a process of identifying what's happening, then make your decision and then act.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: I think there's a desired outcome part of that too.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Like by having this conversation or the action I'm taking.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: What is my desired outcome?
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: So going and yelling at somebody and getting all up in someone's grill because you didn't like something?
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: Like if I say it in that way, am I going to get the desired outcome, or is there a smart way to address this?
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: And there's fire chiefs that try to correct an organizational problem by implementing something without really thinking about it, and this has, like you know, it's like drugs, it's like medication For every effect there's an adverse effect.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: So you've got to work those things through instead of just implementing what Bruno called that ready fire aim approach.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: I think that's what he meant.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: You said it the process.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: You have a process you use.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: Remember, like early in our careers, the police chief, they had a process and he didn't use it.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: It's like we're going to do an investigation and then the next day he just fired seven people and they're like well, the investigation's not done.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I've heard enough, and they're lowlifes, they're out of here.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: Well, a year later he's hiring them back with back pay and everything else.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: So that just kind of became the it's odd when you look at like public safety figures.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: Just kind of became the it's odd when you look at like public safety figures.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: And the other day I was watching something with, like Sheriff Joe and they were still talking about the hundreds of millions of dollars of liability that's still there because of some of the practices that the sheriffs were doing at the time and that hasn't gone away.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: And it's like no, you didn't use the system.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a system of laws.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: You should be familiar with those.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: That's what you use to lock people up with.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: You can't.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: So now you're breaking the law.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: But oh well, that's OK because it's me and you're like well, that's and that's, I think, a lot of the problems that we're seeing in the world today is it's like OK, once I get in a position of power, there's no accountability for me, I can do whatever I want because I have this position.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: And you trying to stop me is almost an act of war.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: And you're like no, this is uh-uh.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: We have these treaties that we live with each other, that we kind of have to live within the lines.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: I love that term social contract.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: For us to be good citizens, we have a social contract with one another, and part of that with leadership is that we are going to take care of our people.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, people are counting on us to do that.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: And part of that is calling when they do something wrong, fix it, Not the cool guy.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: Well, you have to lead.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: That's what it is is.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: I'm leading the organization and the work they do.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Something wrong, fix it.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Not the cool guy.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Well, you have to lead.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: That's what it is is.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: I'm leading the organization and the work they do.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: I don't care what religion you are, what sexuality you get.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: None of that makes any difference.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: You got to be able to deliver the work.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: That's all that matters here, and if you'll do that, we're good.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: That's all we ask is you just do this set of things and what was it?
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: back in the day they used to pick their leader because he was the guy to fit the uniform that he was replacing a dead guy.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly yeah you need to be a little better yeah, yeah, all right guys, thank you very much.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: Great, uh, conversation with nick and terry.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: And uh, thank you all for listening to the V-Shifter podcast.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: We'll talk you next time.