Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Frazer Gregory about his choice of Black Orchid (2/2)

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Talks to Frazer Gregory about his choice of Black Orchid (2/2) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

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  Hamster with a Blump Pen Knife for doing quicker, quicker,
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  quicker. Welcome back to Hamster With a
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  Blump Pen Knife, the Doctor Who commentary Podcast.
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  I am here today with one of my favorite human beings, a man who
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  first took his steps into this podcast in an extremely nervous
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  state and is now horring himself out on any podcast that will
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  have him to spectacular effects. Mr. Fraser Gregory.
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  Now don't you give me that look. Why are you looking at me like
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  that? I'll just talk to anyone.
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  Maybe you do it so well. Come on, your name's out there
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  now. Oh, and actually, no, Here's my
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  chance. I might actually bring this out
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  this week, so I can just going to mention this now.
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  Fraser is writing sixty Doctor Who story Countdown, his
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  favorite 60 stories in a fabulous blog.
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  There's only been a few stories out so far, and typically small,
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  engaging and witty. Shut your face.
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  It's it's brilliant stuff, Fraser.
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  What inspired you to do that? Well, I got the idea from a
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  friend of the podcast, Jason Miller, who went to the Liu
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  convention and held a panel there on the 60 top.
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  Doctor Who stories for the 60th anniversary.
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  So I thought, you know, he got all his guests to to think of
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  that top 60 and then, you know, ten of those that each talked
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  about for some 90 seconds at the panel.
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  So I thought, you know, it would be really interesting to find
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  out what my top sixty stories are.
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  So I got the the Metabula 2 podcast preference revealer and
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  just went through that one afternoon and just made a really
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  snap decision, you know? Not, not so much which is me
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  favorite or which is the best. Just, you know, you have to
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  answer a lot of questions. You can't take your time with
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  it. You'll be there all day.
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  You just got to go. You know, it gives you a choice
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  of two. So you kind of like pick in
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  between, you know, like like frontiers and kids Landers on
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  you've got pick, which is the, you know, which is your favorite
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  or which is your best or whatever, which which do you
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  prefer. So I just kind of did that and
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  got me top 60. Then I thought, well.
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  You know, there's no point keeping a list like that to
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  myself. I'm going to share with
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  everyone. So came up with the idea of just
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  in the 60 days leading up to the 60th to give to talk about one a
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  day. And I've done a blog for that
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  because Twitter has you know, I'm a gobshite you know, I like
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  to talk. I like to write.
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  So A blog is a more convenient way of doing that.
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  Wasn't having a, you know, a ten tweet thread and personal as
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  well I think. Yeah, it's just you, you know.
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  Yeah, I'm also you know, you know, I'm tweeting out the the
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  entries on a daily basis. You can find it at skies
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  fullofdiamonds.wordpress.com and because I just know that's gonna
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  be anniversary, no, no Stephen Moffett.
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  So I know it is. And you know what?
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  I can't wait to read them because as you continue to
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  reeducate me on this era, let the education continue.
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  I'm not going to lie, there is. There is more Moffett stories in
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  there than there is from any other writer.
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  But there's a good spread. I've got, you know, every
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  doctor's covered. Pretty much every season is
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  covered. But reading your few entries
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  that you've done so far, I know you very well, so I know a lot
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  of your opinions. What I realized was actually we
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  haven't scratched the surface on a lot of these stories.
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  So I'm learning tons about what you think about this.
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  This is going to be a massive education for me, reading these
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  through, but they're just very well written as well.
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  And you, you make your points in an engaging way.
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  And trust me, I've read a lot of Doctor Who reviews.
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  Yeah, some of them thought their pH d's at you at every turn and
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  and you get sentences that are so impenetrable, you know, it
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  takes a tight force TARDIS to get out of them, so.
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  Yeah, I'm I'm trying to ring myself in and and not be too
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  short of Pippin Jean and me vocabulary.
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  So I'll please just a little bit here.
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  There's a one Pippin Jane story in there.
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  You know, they'll be a bit of trouble.
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  Yeah. Stay tuned.
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  Well then my next question is does Black Orchid feature on
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  that list? Sadly, it doesn't.
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  It doesn't make quite make the top.
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  Where did it? Where did it come?
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  Do you remember? I don't remember.
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  I've got a screenshot of it, so well, put it out when I put out
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  the episode, then put it in the tweets.
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  I will do. Can you guess what my number one
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  was when I did that list? Oh, time in the Ronnie it ranks.
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  But it was nowhere near #1. Turn Left came out as my number
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  one. Yeah, of all of Doctor Who, it's
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  the one story that barely features the Doctor that says a
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  lot about. Me.
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  That what you will? We are here to talk about the
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  2nd glorious episode of Black Orchid.
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  We we had fun hanging time in the first episode.
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  We did. We got to get a bit of plot
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  going on now. Yeah.
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  Should we plot away? Let's plot away.
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  What would you care to count us in?
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  Will do, yes. In 54321 fainted.
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  Please leave me alone. Who are you?
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  Sir Robert. Arrest that man.
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  I love all of us. I love is where I've been
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  looking for a moment in my life to be this melodramatic.
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  What is it? No.
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  Charles. Yes, Mother.
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  I'll tell you I've come into the conclusion, you know, I'm a
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  massive fan of soap operas. And that's not just my where
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  I've get me into Neighbors, it's Yeah, DS9.
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  I've learned it's a massive soap opera.
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  So anything that's doing this sort of crazy melodrama, I'm
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  there. Yeah.
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  So quick reprise, there were massive set and it's about to.
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  And you've been Do you imagine it's beyond that curtain at the
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  back of the set there? Do you think it's like the same
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  people having a tea break? That's probably where they keep
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  the other members of the family that they're disgraced.
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  Fair enough. Yeah.
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  Speaking of my family, I can understand it.
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  A couple of them locked up in the bedroom.
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  It was the poor Butler again. Yeah, the music here, you know,
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  where as if the hands go towards her, the piano goes.
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  It's really great. I think I might be a few seconds
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  behind you here, but don't worry.
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  That's you're often a few steps ahead of me.
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  Stop it with the fluttery. So the doctor has found a dead
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  body. There's a dead body at the
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  bottom of the stairs. It is very Agatha Christie,
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  isn't it? I mean, it is an AG of Christie,
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  isn't it? Did you know that J&T was tipped
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  to direct this and couldn't do it at the last minute?
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  So this is the one of the season and he was going to do it and
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  just I think he had far too many conventions to cheer off to, so
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  he couldn't find the time to do it.
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  But actually, this is totally suited to what costumes, you
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  know, balls and fancy affairs. Yeah, he would have been great.
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  I would have loved to have seen it, because this is Ron Jones's
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  first. Yes, and I think one of his
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  best. Now, Ron Jones is usually a is
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  Ron Jones. The director would think it's
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  worse as the time goes on or does he get better?
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  I think he he improves towards the end.
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  So he does this. He does Time Fly, Arkham
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  Infinity, Frontiers Veges and Virus and Mime Warp.
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  So I think those last four actually have some solid
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  direction in them. But it's those two.
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  After this it's it's. I mean, it's not the bull man
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  with with time flight because he's he's kind of given not
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  enough budget. He's given, he's got forced
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  perspective sets, so he has to have the camera locked in a
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  certain position because obviously if you stop moving
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  around, you shoot from different angles, you don't get that sense
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  that this ziggurat is, you know, miles away over the hill, which
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  you don't get anyway. So what was the point?
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  You clearly tell that you're in a studio set, so you start a
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  little bit of a rough on those. It's the old adage.
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  You can't Polish a turd, but Ark of Infinity I've been to
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  Amsterdam is my second favorite place in the entire world.
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  It's the city of Vice and it's stylish and gorgeous, and he
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  makes it seem like the dreariest fucking location Doctor Who has
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  ever visited. I don't know how he managed to
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  do that. It's like he's he's took a.
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  Hint from City of Death and just thought.
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  You know the way you get the best out of your location is
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  just have your extras run around it while you're filming them.
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  Trouble is, Paris is gorgeous. I'm not sure you can make Paris
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  look unattractive. It's got lots of things you can
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  shoot to. This is Paris.
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  Look, Eiffel Tower and Octetreum.
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  Knock the dam. You can say these are, you know,
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  there's nothing really like that in Amsterdam.
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  It's a canal, whereas it's not a backhanded compliment to say.
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  I don't think you needed a particularly proficient director
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  for this story. You don't.
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  You don't. It's.
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  There's nothing technically demanding, is it?
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  It's you can point and shoot in this because it's essentially
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  about the accent rather than, you know, how it's filmed.
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  Yeah it's about the the it's the characters not you know there's
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  no scifi. There's no there's no monster
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  about even have a villain in this but.
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  I did have a villain. I would say it's this wife here.
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  Oh, what? Barbara Murray?
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  Lady Cranley Yeah, she's evil and showing.
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  Villain of the piece, not poor George there, powering in the
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  corner. He's the one that's kept him up
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  there, locked away like the madman in the attic.
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  I love this. She wakes up so Robert simply
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  throbbing. It was a man in fancy dress.
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  Oh, I love it. I love that Barbara Murray's
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  costume, you know, with the. She reminds me of that woman
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  from Walking and broken glass. Have you seen the video of that?
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  Yeah, she wears the same sort of wig in That was black, but she
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  looks very similar. Yeah, it's very 3 Musketeers,
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  isn't it? Like the Lady the Winter
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  Happiness. Do you know what his his skull
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  makeup is quite effective, isn't it?
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  It is. It is.
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  And that's, you know, is that an issue?
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  Then the representation of disability is evil.
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  In this story, I think the objection is that the disabled
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  person is just there's no smiles, there is just a
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  murderous. A monster basically is portrayed
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  as a monster. Discuss.
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  It's a valid point, I think. It is.
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  You know, we see this in other stories as well.
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  We see this with time lash for Oh.
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  It's worse in time Lash, though. But we also see nobody wants
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  you. Nobody cares for you.
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  You know that? Yeah, terrible.
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  And we see it in kids of Andrazani.
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  We'll see it in, yeah, yeah. But I think he's portrayed quite
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  sympathetically. There is a little bit of
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  sympathy, but it is very one note.
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  It is like you say he's the bad guy because clearly he is,
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  because he's he's got the facial disfigurement, he can't talk
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  properly, so he's got the speech impediment.
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  He's got no tongue. Bless him.
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  You know this? There's very little sympathy,
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  you know, you get towards him because he's basically sneaking
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  around, murdering people and just to get on, you know, so
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  there's there's, you can't understand why he feels a bit
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  hard done by and why he's quite angry.
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  Exactly. And that's what makes Lady
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  Crowley really the villain of the piece, because rather than
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  actually, you know, accepting a sudden in the state that he's
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  come back from the Americas and you know, she's locking him away
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  out of sight. You know, and then essentially,
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  you know, farming out on to the next in line, you know it's it's
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  very medieval, you know, and it's I think I wonder if there's
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  a bit of money in there somewhere, you know that family
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  are quite wealthy. The Worcester shuttle But so you
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  know, have you an Uncle Patty? It's you know it's it's it's it
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  is it is a difficulty it's. I think the the class
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  representation as well is a is a downside to this as well because
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  you know we all with the toughs, you know and the toughs are
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  doing tough things and we're kind of happy to let them get
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  away with doing what they've done at the end.
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  You know, poor George plummers to his death at the end.
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  And then the doctor just goes. Thank you.
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  I'll treasure that book. Goodbye.
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  Yeah. Imagine David Tennant.
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  He would have had one of his teeth.
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  He runs, wouldn't he? You need you.
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  What you need is is the Robert to be caught off Lady Cranley in
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  the Paddy wagon at the end and saying right, yeah, call with me
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  then he's off the hook. But you've got some questions to
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  ask down the answer down the station I'm afraid.
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  And you know, being being a proper copper, I'm wondering if
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  this could have stretched the three actually push, because no,
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  no, you could have dealt with some of that.
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  I would have liked a dialogue scene between George and his
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  brother. I would have liked the sequence
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  where during the ball, George's the Brothers revealed.
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  So he literally exposes what they're doing in front of all of
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  their friends and all of that. You know, some of that sort of
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  stuff to go on. But you know, we're squeezing
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  this all into two. It's going to move fast, I mean.
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  It doesn't necessarily move faster as the thing you know all
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  the plot happens in the in the second part.
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  You know, so there is really fast.
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  So I think we're we're suddenly from location to a point where
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  we got moved so fast. We pour everybody into the
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  TARDIS, which is my biggest objection to this because it's
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  not that's just not needed at all.
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  They could have just said, right, they've come from the
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  cars there, you know? It's.
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  I mean, I think you've probably got the room in the first part
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  to, you know, move some stuff from the second into the 1st and
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  then. But obviously what's what's the
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  the consequence of that is you you lose what we've discussed in
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  that first part of the hang time.
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  Yeah. You know, so you get less.
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  I think the team enjoying the story as well, so I would want
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  to lose it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know,
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  you'd actually know we're not going to have the cricket scene
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  or the cricket scenes going to be cut down and the buffet is
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  going to be cut down. Adricks just going to, you know,
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  be sitting in a food coma in the corner without any other
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  explanation or anything. So.
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  You know potentially there is there is a bit of a bit of fat
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  to be trimmed there in in the sort of like dancing scenes and
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  whatnot you think actually yeah we've danced we've got the
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  point. We've got the point now.
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  So yeah couple of minutes. Yeah, you could probably put
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  that's in it. Your idea there with having the
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  scene between Lord Crowley and and the the brother.
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  Yeah would would be would actually be really effective.
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  You drop that into the first half, then you know the guy
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  that's creeping around killing people is.
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  There's some sort of connection is would add an extra Liam of
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  who done it. It would have been interesting
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  if there was some rivalry between the two of them.
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  So the fact that he's taking his fiance is why he's lashing out
• 16:39
  as he is. But we're just not thinking on
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  that level, are we? In fact, when when he gets a
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  chance to talk to George, he goes to give him a hug.
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  So it seems like everything is very aimable.
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  So you're like, why is he going around killing people?
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  What's that all about? Yeah, and again, that just calls
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  back to, well, it's because he's clearly the monster.
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  You know, because he's clearly deranged now.
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  Yeah, yeah. And it's just it's it's
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  unsavory. It is, it is.
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  It's not ideal. And it is the case in classic
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  who at times, and we have to swallow it down whether we like
• 17:14
  it or not. I mean, I don't.
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  I'd like to think what wouldn't make a story like this now.
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  And I would like to think definitely not my.
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  That we can see yeah this is a this is a part about of the time
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  but with all products of the time.
• 17:29
  I think, you know that doesn't excuse it.
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  It just means we accept it. We recognize that no things are
• 17:35
  different now and you know it. It's an uncomfortable it's part
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  of what happened and neither accept that and you know, move
• 17:44
  on, enjoy the rest of the story or we we say no, this story
• 17:48
  isn't for me and whichever. That you fall on is is
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  perfectly, perfectly valid, I think.
• 17:53
  I do wonder if, as near to the knuckle we got in the new series
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  with Voyage of the Dime, with that fellow in the wheelchair,
• 17:58
  that was just a head. I know he's a robot, but he's
• 18:01
  clearly like somebody that's very disabled.
• 18:04
  Yes. I mean, I think in terms of sort
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  of disability representation, I think the very worst scene we
• 18:11
  ever get in the whole of Doctor Who is in, which is familiar.
• 18:17
  When, Yeah, when was he thinking?
• 18:21
  When the doctor literally throws a man out of his wheelchair so
• 18:24
  you can go and drive around in it, yeah, you know.
• 18:28
  I mean we're going to be covering that at some point.
• 18:31
  We are, Simon, we are and we'll discuss that more when we do it.
• 18:36
  But that's that for me is is an absolutely terrible scene.
• 18:38
  I think that ranks is one of the worst ever.
• 18:42
  It's up there with Capaldi telling that kid not to take the
• 18:44
  medication. What are you doing?
• 18:50
  Can I just talk about Davidson's 5th Doctor for a second?
• 18:53
  Because I just think he's the perfect fear for this murder
• 18:56
  mystery being part of his direction.
• 18:58
  Because Tom Baker wouldn't have it.
• 19:00
  He'd just dominate the scene and he'd be like, know how we would
• 19:03
  be hopping up in it with the Gentry and that wouldn't work?
• 19:06
  Maybe Patrick Tron. Maybe he'd be buffooning about a
• 19:10
  bit, like, but he's so inoffensive and he does his
• 19:14
  token objections and then he just sits down and goes, oh, for
• 19:16
  God sakes, you're not listening to me.
• 19:18
  Why am I bothering? Yeah, he's you're absolutely
• 19:22
  right. I mean, Colin Baker as well, you
• 19:24
  know, would be either punched, a lot of them out.
• 19:27
  You know McCoy would be exactly the same Perry leg it quick.
• 19:34
  Me. Me, The murderer.
• 19:37
  Outrageous. Preposterous.
• 19:40
  I do think the doctors alibi being the fact that he's got an
• 19:43
  interdimensional time and space machine is a bit lacking in
• 19:47
  logic. Yes, well of course you couldn't
• 19:49
  have murdered somebody. You have a mode of transport.
• 19:54
  You have a mode of transport that gets you from one crime
• 19:56
  scene to another. Well, anyone noticing?
• 20:00
  But you know, I like the vintage cars, the costumes out on
• 20:04
  location. This is a bit of pattern, isn't
• 20:06
  it? Because the TARDIS isn't there.
• 20:07
  I mean, if that's what you need to do, then just have the.
• 20:10
  If you need to get them in the TARDIS, then just get them in
• 20:12
  the TARDIS. And, you know, so this is the
• 20:15
  point where you think, well, actually we are spinning a few
• 20:17
  wheels, you know, and who's taking the TARDIS?
• 20:20
  Why would they do that? I think at this point you might
• 20:22
  think this is a full part. Well it's it's it's the police
• 20:26
  isn't the police have walked up the train station went oh that's
• 20:28
  what's that was who left out there.
• 20:31
  Took it off. Oh mind you though, I'll say I
• 20:33
  don't lie, The bit where he pass them all in and he does it a lot
• 20:35
  in his ear. But I love the reaction of the
• 20:37
  fellow who walks in and goes, oh strike me pink when he walks in
• 20:42
  and tardies. I think they just probably went
• 20:46
  home for his tea that day and went, yeah, I've had a very odd
• 20:48
  day. He's like the guy from Planet,
• 20:52
  the spiders there. I'm going home.
• 20:55
  I don't feel well. It's the dinner ready.
• 21:01
  It was all a northbound platform of the railway.
• 21:03
  Station George sneaking out to Clubber.
• 21:10
  I mean, I'm not sure this two-part needs any other excuse
• 21:14
  to exist, but they're just everyone looks gorgeous and the
• 21:17
  location work is gorgeous. I mean, that's it.
• 21:20
  And it's it is wrapped around a very sort of thin thin plot.
• 21:24
  But like you see that this plot could have been a lot.
• 21:28
  You know a lot more to it, couldn't it?
• 21:30
  It could be a lot more. I think the characterization
• 21:32
  could have been more complex, yeah.
• 21:34
  But I think it doesn't now stay as welcome, though.
• 21:36
  That's what I like about it, no. Absolutely not.
• 21:38
  Absolutely not. So I thought you said about the
• 21:39
  visitation. Yeah, if that had been two
• 21:42
  episodes, it was skipped along. It would have done all like say
• 21:45
  if they just moved the, you know, the pot along, you know
• 21:50
  moved location a little bit more.
• 21:51
  So, you know, we're just again, we're just we're kind of showing
• 21:54
  off, Yeah, now we're not, we're not actually doing anything.
• 21:57
  With White, we all just kind of like, you know, doing a bit of
• 22:00
  location footage and and getting some extra characters into the
• 22:03
  TARDIS and oh, this line reading of Janet Field is is terrible.
• 22:08
  You are in for us. Up a rise.
• 22:12
  What you doing? Oh no, but this is where we get
• 22:16
  off jeopardy now. George knocks out his keeper and
• 22:22
  then decides instead of trying to bash down the door, he's just
• 22:24
  going to burn. It has some pretty good effects
• 22:28
  there, though I think it looks like that set is properly on
• 22:32
  fire. You know what?
• 22:36
  I like the way they've dressed them.
• 22:38
  I like that he's got that sort of like, you know, cricket,
• 22:42
  cricket, golfer type, like jump around.
• 22:44
  So it's like, well, you've got the parallels of Davison there,
• 22:48
  aren't you? He's got his Brooks, he's got
• 22:52
  his nice trousers on, it's just obviously he's.
• 22:55
  He's a monster, obviously, so they've kept him hidden in the
• 22:57
  outlet. Kids George, I don't think that
• 22:59
  is a safe way of exiting that. Room No.
• 23:04
  No. Burn the door?
• 23:05
  No. Well, I think the idea is he's
• 23:07
  just lost his mind and he yeah or will, he can think of his
• 23:10
  hand. Yeah, well, that needs.
• 23:13
  That. Needs a little bit fleshing out
• 23:14
  really. And in this sense, we owe you an
• 23:18
  apology, Doctor. What do you mean?
• 23:20
  And then he goes, yeah, well, there's still a murder to
• 23:21
  explain. Good.
• 23:22
  I'm glad someone's like that. Oh, try to be pink.
• 23:28
  Oh no. Afraid to look at his name.
• 23:32
  Did you say it? What's that?
• 23:34
  His name's Cummings. Behave.
• 23:41
  Thank you, Cummings. Stop it.
• 23:44
  Oh, look. And his name is Markham.
• 23:46
  I've had a bit of Markham in my life.
• 23:48
  Oh, sorry. I'll stop now.
• 23:49
  I'll stop. All right.
• 23:53
  And they've just explained the situation down there.
• 23:56
  Yeah. So that your fiance, the one
• 23:58
  that we said is dead, isn't dead.
• 23:59
  He's in the attic. But would still like you that
• 24:02
  Marie's brother, please? Remember I said this doesn't
• 24:05
  take particularly sophisticated duration.
• 24:07
  What he's got to do is do a long shot there of that house with
• 24:10
  the TARDIS landing and we're all like, that's gorgeous.
• 24:15
  You know, Fraser, when you come on and do Stephen Moffett
• 24:18
  commentaries with me, that line that Anne had, just saying it's
• 24:22
  something I've said to you many times, How could you?
• 24:25
  Oh, how could you? Oh, Moffett.
• 24:34
  So arrest that man. It's.
• 24:37
  Got a little mental image if you're running.
• 24:39
  Oh, whistle whistle. Yeah, arrest that, Moffett.
• 24:48
  Oh, this all looks fabulous. Do you know what?
• 24:51
  I do love it when they build a big staircase in the studio, a
• 24:53
  bit like Ghost Line. Yeah, yeah, can.
• 24:56
  It's levels. You know what?
• 24:58
  It's it's, you know, 3 dimensions.
• 25:02
  People get to run up things. You lose this.
• 25:04
  If I just shot this on film cameras, I think I would have
• 25:07
  been perfectly convinced. Or else they were in a location.
• 25:10
  Yeah, absolutely. It's only because we know we
• 25:13
  know what is video cameras, and that means they're in the
• 25:15
  studio. Yeah, but it's.
• 25:18
  It's it's believable because it's, again, it's what the BBC
• 25:21
  does really well at the times. They probably got all of these,
• 25:24
  you know, decorations and props and flats and whatnot, you know,
• 25:28
  for other from other shows and for other shows and whatnot, you
• 25:33
  know, Makes it easier for them to kind of cobble it together.
• 25:36
  This is pure soap. He won't hurt her.
• 25:38
  He. Loves her.
• 25:41
  Well, why is he took out of the roof of a burning building then
• 25:45
  he he just wants to get her away from everybody else.
• 25:48
  You know I don't think this is anywhere near as offensive as
• 25:54
  time lash with the doctor condemning a disabled man and
• 25:59
  then plummeting him to his death.
• 26:01
  Plus George gets a moment of redemption.
• 26:04
  He gives an to the doctor and unfortunately the story then
• 26:09
  does decide to kill him off, which is the the Eric's award go
• 26:13
  to way of ending a story. Patrick was going to do
• 26:19
  something then. He was.
• 26:21
  But you know, no, Patrick, you're not allowed to do
• 26:25
  anything in this story. No, we don't want you to die in
• 26:28
  this one. Save it for next week.
• 26:33
  I have done something terribly wrong.
• 26:35
  Fraser Sigh. Is not to blame.
• 26:42
  His tongue, his mind was affected.
• 26:44
  Are we being racist as well then?
• 26:46
  But like the the Kujabi Indians did this to him.
• 26:51
  I mean, it's the trope, isn't it?
• 26:53
  It's, you know, it's it's kind of Indiana Jones at the start of
• 26:58
  made as the last talk. But the savages.
• 27:03
  You have to remember this is scripted by Terrence Dudley, who
• 27:06
  did give us possibly the most offensive dialogue exchange in
• 27:11
  Fort Doomsday. I am Lynn Futu.
• 27:13
  Well, of course you look in the best of health to me.
• 27:16
  You know, like, I don't think Dudley, I don't think he's
• 27:19
  racist. I just think he's thoughtless.
• 27:21
  Yeah, you know what? This is the thing.
• 27:23
  I think, you know, no one's ever went out to be racist.
• 27:26
  And Doctor Who, no one's, you know, you know this, this
• 27:30
  elements. Over the years because it is a
• 27:33
  60 year program and you know attitudes to race, gender,
• 27:37
  disability and sexuality of all changed in those sixty years and
• 27:41
  no one's ever went out to make something deliberately
• 27:44
  offensive. What they have done is made
• 27:46
  something that is offensive just because that's the way things
• 27:50
  were done at the time or because they couldn't do it any better
• 27:54
  and so. I think that's what we're
• 27:56
  getting here. We're not getting somewhere in
• 27:57
  our toast of this. Not when we went fucking
• 28:00
  Indians. I'm sure you want to make your
• 28:01
  story, and I just think it's a shame to dismiss a charming
• 28:08
  period piece because one element of it is a little bit
• 28:13
  distasteful because there's a lot more to this.
• 28:15
  There's a lot of hard work that's going into the rest.
• 28:18
  Exactly, but I think it depends how it lands, do you know?
• 28:20
  So if you find that offensive, you think.
• 28:23
  If you for example watch Creature from the Pit and you
• 28:25
  think you know the the metal bandits are very antisemitic,
• 28:30
  you know if that lands for you and that takes you out that
• 28:32
  story, then that's that's fair enough.
• 28:34
  If you trouble is, is the other person that can totally rip
• 28:39
  myself. So I think probably the most
• 28:40
  terrible gay stereotype is Mr. Humphreys from Are You Being
• 28:43
  Served? And I think he's hilarious.
• 28:45
  So I've got quite a lot of attitude for this sort of thing.
• 28:49
  Yeah. And again, if if that lands well
• 28:51
  for you, then that's fine. I mean, I mean, it's horribly
• 28:53
  offensive at all. Yes, we're coming up at
• 28:56
  Christmas shortly. We're going to be having the
• 28:59
  whole, you know, fairy tale of New York saga about whether that
• 29:05
  you would that song should have the word faggot in it.
• 29:09
  Now I know some some gay people who are absolutely fine with
• 29:12
  that lyric being in there. You're looking at what you want.
• 29:15
  You know it. It all depends on how it lands
• 29:17
  for you. What I would say is though, if
• 29:18
  you know if it, if it lands for you where you can't enjoy it,
• 29:22
  then that's a valid opinion. If it lands for you where you
• 29:25
  can say actually that's troublesome but was a product of
• 29:29
  its time, I'm going to look past it then fair enough.
• 29:33
  I mean something for me. I'm kind of in somewhere in the
• 29:35
  middle, you know, I will look at something and go, well, you
• 29:38
  know, I appreciate what else is happening in this episode, but
• 29:40
  that one particular thing, you know, means it comes down.
• 29:44
  A little bit. So the example I'll give is the
• 29:47
  Romans. You know, everyone loves the
• 29:49
  Romans. The Romans is a fantastically
• 29:52
  you're going to talk about so three, aren't you and Barbara
• 29:54
  being chased around? Exactly.
• 29:55
  You know, you know, I'll be fine with that because it's played
• 29:59
  for comedy and he's clearly a buffoon.
• 30:02
  Yeah, you know, when I watch that, you know, I enjoyed so
• 30:06
  much of it, you know? And it's, it's Dennis Spooner.
• 30:08
  I love Dennis Spooner. And I think we the show always
• 30:11
  more Dennis Spooner than probably anyone else that does
• 30:13
  in its six year history. But you get to that point and I
• 30:17
  watched that a couple of days after the the vigil for Sarah
• 30:24
  Everard, you know after she'd been murdered by the the police
• 30:28
  officer. And so you know that scene where
• 30:30
  you've got the man got new with chasing Barber because he
• 30:33
  basically wants to sexually assault her, landed very hard
• 30:36
  for me and that. You know, it did Take Me Out, so
• 30:39
  I'm not going to sit and say the Romans is a terrible episode
• 30:42
  because it has that scene in it. But at the same time I can't
• 30:47
  say, you know, the Romans is not going to make my list of 60
• 30:49
  greatest top, top Doctor Who stories because there is an
• 30:53
  element in it that that brings it down.
• 30:55
  So it brings it down without an 8 out of 10 for me rather than a
• 30:58
  10 out of 10. That's that is fair.
• 31:01
  What I object to is people saying that their aptitude for
• 31:08
  watching this stuff, their ability to watch it or nor
• 31:11
  should mean whether that product is available to everybody else.
• 31:15
  I don't like that. So when that whole thing about
• 31:17
  the Unicorn Dewas came up on Twitter and like everyone was
• 31:20
  going, how dare you celebrate this story, this, this cannot be
• 31:24
  done as a celebration of Doctor Who because he's a terrible
• 31:27
  transphobe and all of this. And they were speaking for
• 31:29
  everybody else. And if anybody else said, no, I
• 31:31
  quite like that, then they came down and I'm like, I don't know,
• 31:35
  just because you can't handle it, that, I mean the rest of us
• 31:38
  can't. And just because you don't want
• 31:40
  to watch it, that doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't.
• 31:43
  Yeah. Sorry, this got very serious,
• 31:45
  didn't it? Has, isn't it for quite the
• 31:47
  light? Sometimes it does though,
• 31:49
  wouldn't it? Because I think there are some
• 31:51
  problematic things there worth discussing.
• 31:53
  There is, there is and Doctor Who is littered with them, you
• 31:55
  know, and like I think if we don't acknowledge that, if we
• 31:58
  pretend there's nothing problematic and or if we dismiss
• 32:01
  the people who think that they are problematic.
• 32:04
  Out of hand then we're kind of just as bad as the people who
• 32:08
  you know might you know is what you said you know you the the
• 32:12
  ones who want to, you know, cancel particular ones.
• 32:15
  And I would never say no one should watch the Romans because
• 32:17
  it's a horrendously misogynistic and you know and and terrible
• 32:21
  what you need to do is you need to look at it and go that's
• 32:24
  problematic. You know, we don't make
• 32:27
  television that way anymore, thankfully, because of that and
• 32:31
  kind of move on. You don't.
• 32:33
  You know what mine was? Yours is.
• 32:35
  Mine was Dark water was. They don't cremate me like I
• 32:39
  always thought I had. I was fine.
• 32:41
  And I could handle anything doctor could throw me.
• 32:42
  And I could say, yeah, that's that's problematic and it
• 32:44
  shouldn't be in there. But I like the rest of the
• 32:47
  story. I can let it pass.
• 32:48
  I lost my mom. I cremated my mom.
• 32:51
  And the suggestion that my mom was screaming don't cremated, I
• 32:54
  was just like, that's so distasteful to anyone who's lost
• 32:58
  anybody. And so that was my point where I
• 33:00
  was like, oh, actually I even I've got my limit.
• 33:04
  But it's so personal to the person it is.
• 33:06
  It's the way it lands fear, isn't it?
• 33:07
  That don't mean I don't think other people should be able to
• 33:10
  watch and enjoy Dark Water, and I certainly don't think people
• 33:12
  shouldn't be allowed to enjoy Black Orchid, which is
• 33:15
  essentially an inoffensive and charming period piece of Doctor
• 33:20
  Who. Yeah, I mean if anything we
• 33:22
  should look at black organ and go, you know, you know, that's a
• 33:25
  terrible, that's a terrible treatment of that character.
• 33:29
  It's all down to the toffs, So. If anything, we should overthrow
• 33:33
  the aristocracy. I mean, we've technically noted
• 33:36
  it's a little bit racist, it's certainly a bliss and it's a
• 33:40
  little bit classist. Very classic.
• 33:43
  You know, that's that's what we should be coming out is seeing.
• 33:45
  Shame on you, Terrence. Dudley, Shame on you, Lady
• 33:48
  Cranny. You are a villain because you're
• 33:50
  a class, so let's hang them all. On that note, should we find
• 33:54
  three things that we admired about this story?
• 33:57
  To recommend it? Well, yes.
• 34:00
  Go on then. Do you want to go first or
• 34:03
  should I? Oh, I'd love to go 1st and I am
• 34:05
  going to say I just adore it when Doctor Who goes out in the
• 34:10
  British countryside. And so all these scenes outside
• 34:14
  the country manners and on the cricket pitch and all of this,
• 34:17
  there's just something about it pops on the screen and restored
• 34:20
  on Blu-ray. It looks, it's like a window
• 34:23
  into the past. I feel as if I could reach in
• 34:25
  and touch that cricket bat. It looks the location work in
• 34:30
  season 19 in general looks absolutely beautiful.
• 34:32
  Castro Valva visitation black Hawked J&T found a way of
• 34:37
  putting money on the screen in quite a cheap way.
• 34:40
  It looks gorgeous, so there we go.
• 34:42
  Black Hawked looks gorgeous. I'm going to pick hang time.
• 34:48
  Thanks Nathan, because I'm going to.
• 34:53
  Use that now. Yes, surely.
• 34:55
  Hang time. Whatever it is, the doing that
• 34:57
  it's. It's what makes the story.
• 34:58
  It's like, yeah, every Doctor Who story doesn't have to be
• 35:02
  life and death. It doesn't have to be.
• 35:04
  End of the universe doesn't always even have to be.
• 35:07
  You know, a wrong needs writing, You know, it can just be, you
• 35:11
  know, the Doctor and the Companion.
• 35:12
  We never see stories that like that where they just go and have
• 35:15
  fun somewhere. It's, you know.
• 35:18
  It's what they're trying to do in in turn left.
• 35:20
  You know the Donner and oh, I love that bit at the beginning
• 35:23
  where they're laughing and drinking and.
• 35:25
  Yeah, trying to have a bit of hang time and someone gets in
• 35:26
  the way. So the fact that we get a very
• 35:28
  extended hang time, which is basically the first episode, you
• 35:31
  know, the doctor gets to play cricket, you know, our Tegan
• 35:34
  gets a couple of cocktails in so and goes dancing and this, you
• 35:38
  know, gets a new friend and starts and gets to have a
• 35:40
  dancing and good old Idrick does what I do would do and goes
• 35:45
  loads. He's played at the buffet more
• 35:46
  than once. He can guess a couple of what
• 35:49
  you know. Cocktails.
• 35:51
  All right. I thought that's what you said.
• 35:56
  Oh, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
• 35:59
  No, you're not. No, not so.
• 36:01
  There's still reaction that makes it.
• 36:03
  Oh, is it my turn? Yes.
• 36:05
  Oh, OK. I am fairly derogatory about
• 36:09
  some of Peter Davidson's performances for his run.
• 36:11
  I do think he sabotages a fair amount of season 20 personally.
• 36:17
  We talked about this in more Than under, didn't we?
• 36:19
  I know you don't agree, but I think he's sort of his hit in
• 36:23
  his stride at this point. And there they've kind of
• 36:26
  inserted him into a story where he gets to do what he does best.
• 36:31
  And that is like pushing up against the university authority
• 36:35
  figures, The Gentry, whoever. I'm just being frustrated.
• 36:38
  He does it so well and to such great comic effect.
• 36:42
  I think he's terrific in this. He doesn't write his own
• 36:44
  performance in this, so I'm here to tell him he's wrong.
• 36:47
  Yeah. Choice and I will in a similar
• 36:51
  being pick Sarah Sutton, yes. Yeah, like we've said in this,
• 36:58
  that doesn't always get much to do.
• 37:00
  So Sarah Sutton doesn't always get a chance to to shine.
• 37:05
  But you know, much like Janet Fielden's hard kinder, where she
• 37:09
  gets to play. Be around and not just be tea
• 37:12
  and be the the mother. So given Nissan the chance to be
• 37:15
  Anne as well, you know, really give Sarah Sutton an opportunity
• 37:19
  to show what she can do when given given something different
• 37:24
  to do, given some good material. And you know, she takes it with
• 37:27
  both hands and does a flappy dance with it because she
• 37:32
  doesn't get anything to do, but she actually does a lot in the
• 37:35
  visitation and she does a fair amount in time fly as well.
• 37:39
  I was just thinking it's the biggies of the season.
• 37:41
  She don't get anything to do kinder.
• 37:42
  She don't get a lot of severe in earth, actually.
• 37:44
  She does loads in Castro, Valva as well.
• 37:47
  It doesn't look good show in Castroval.
• 37:49
  I mean Tang Flake, she's, she's knocked out for a little bit and
• 37:53
  then she's kind of possessed. She develops sort of like
• 37:56
  Susanesque psychic powers. Never before mentioned and never
• 38:00
  since mentioned again can I say a lot I've been longing to say
• 38:04
  to you for a long time. Go on then.
• 38:07
  We're heading straight into the biggest explosion in history.
• 38:13
  It's your turn. Well, I don't know the next
• 38:18
  line. I don't think there is one.
• 38:20
  They just sort of wash about the console like that.
• 38:25
  And then the master goes, wow my friends, wow, forever marvelous
• 38:34
  stuff. It's my turn as yours.
• 38:39
  Or did you say Sarah Sutton? I know.
• 38:41
  Sarah Sutton, Wowzers, Okay. I am the prestige guest cast in
• 38:47
  this. Barbara Murray.
• 38:49
  I don't know who the pellet fellow who plays Sir Robert is.
• 38:53
  I think he's in another Doctor Who story, isn't he?
• 38:57
  Is he look him up quickly while I keep talking Barbara Murray
• 39:02
  and certainly Michael Cochran? Can you tell me the other story
• 39:06
  that Michael Cochran appears in? Is that a no?
• 39:14
  Ghost light, There you go. Red viz, Van Cooper.
• 39:18
  Yeah. Oh, he's marvelous in that.
• 39:21
  And who was the other one? Sir Robert.
• 39:23
  Sir Robert? Yeah.
• 39:24
  Where else is he Is. I swear he's in another Doctor
• 39:26
  Who story. Or Toby Haydok.
• 39:28
  Hates it when people do this research on Mike.
• 39:31
  Sorry, Toby. No, I think he was just in Black
• 39:35
  Walker. I'll take this moment to say you
• 39:37
  are a gentleman of esteem, of excellent taste and you have the
• 39:42
  far superior commentary podcast whilst we're researching.
• 39:45
  And he was in the Darlingtons of me, one pool of the Bailey, of
• 39:50
  which Fraser appeared on celebrating Meg Loss.
• 39:55
  Go seek out those episodes. OK, well, so you get my point,
• 39:59
  though it's, I don't think it's a great challenge for any of
• 40:02
  these actors to come in and play the Gentry and and say these,
• 40:06
  you know, very obvious lines. But they do it with, I'm going
• 40:11
  to use upper class words, gumption and spunk.
• 40:13
  I don't know if Spunk's upper class, they do it with gumption.
• 40:17
  Back to you. Ma'am, I'm going to pick costume
• 40:21
  design this one because obviously we do.
• 40:25
  We'll have an opportunity to get people out of their uniforms and
• 40:30
  everyone gets to get out the clothes and get them washed for
• 40:34
  once. And you know, the the outfits
• 40:37
  that they're given are really, really quite good.
• 40:39
  So you've got the sort of Harlequin, which suits Davison
• 40:42
  really well. You know something about and not
• 40:44
  just suits the Harlequin, you know without the mask on and
• 40:48
  Janet Fielding in that sort of tinkerbell dress, you know with
• 40:52
  the the green, the greens and what Browns and what not really
• 40:56
  is really good. You know Patrick gets a bit of a
• 41:00
  new romantic look so he gets his pirate outfit and then and this
• 41:04
  obviously gets the butterfly dress, the flapper, butterfly
• 41:07
  flapper dress to dance around and you know it's just you know
• 41:11
  it goes back what you were saying in the first one that how
• 41:13
  how good everything looks. The cost design is a it's a
• 41:16
  really, really good part of it. But again, it's it's not
• 41:18
  surprising because this is what the BBC does.
• 41:21
  Really Well, I've just watched through over the season 20 and
• 41:25
  it is a bit beige on the whole. It is a bit dreary looking.
• 41:30
  I've just been watching the visuals whilst talking to you
• 41:32
  about this and the the images sort of come at me, you know,
• 41:35
  it's all eye-catching and I think that's what this wants to
• 41:38
  be. Is eye-catching?
• 41:41
  Is that three H? Do you have another one?
• 41:47
  Well, I could think of enough one if I need to.
• 41:50
  OK well, my of 1 is going to be, oh, I've said the word at the
• 41:54
  beginning of the story, the melodrama of it all.
• 41:57
  I mean, Doctor Who and Soap goes together hand in hand these
• 42:01
  days. But it wasn't the case in 1981
• 42:06
  one and this came out, actually, what am I talking about?
• 42:10
  It was a soap, wasn't it? In 81.
• 42:13
  Every single story I've seen in the TARDIS playing out like an
• 42:16
  episode of EastEnders, you know I shall find someone who will
• 42:21
  take me. It is literally stand as a one
• 42:24
  point to swap my brothers over. This isn't a taxi service that
• 42:28
  goes back and forth. You know, all of this stuff and
• 42:31
  take a screaming the red off all the time.
• 42:33
  No. But I do like I have developed a
• 42:35
  taste for this sort of thing in my later years, and I think
• 42:38
  there's a portion of the audience that would say Doctor
• 42:40
  is a soap opera is. A portrayal of, you know, the
• 42:44
  serious science fiction that it professes to be.
• 42:48
  I'm not sure it ever did because it was a bit of a soap opera in
• 42:50
  season one and two and three as well.
• 42:52
  What it is, I mean it's it's it's doing.
• 42:55
  He does it in 18, does it in 19. The the stories kind of linked
• 42:59
  together. You know there's a mention at
• 43:02
  the start of the story of the previous stories as like sort of
• 43:06
  the mention of. Some it's it's very labored
• 43:10
  sometimes. I was There's the sort of
• 43:12
  mention of of London and Burn in London Down at the start of this
• 43:15
  one, isn't there? Can you think of any other
• 43:17
  thought from from this story? There from any of them where
• 43:21
  where it's the you know a reminder of what's just happened
• 43:23
  going in yeah well not exactly not accurately but like I say in
• 43:28
  this one it's it's refers to the you know burn in London down and
• 43:36
  obviously time flights all about Adrick and the drop the crew
• 43:39
  with the. The worst one is the Eric
• 43:42
  Saywood one. What was it?
• 43:44
  Daleks. Sometimes I feel as if I'll be
• 43:47
  chased by those mutated misfits for the rest of time, which
• 43:50
  comes straight off the resurrection of the Daleks.
• 43:53
  Oh Christ away. Do you know what?
• 43:55
  Tell me if I'm completely off kilter when I say this.
• 43:58
  I think Season 19 and series 11. Are the two seasons that are the
• 44:07
  closest to season one that are doing the reboot with three
• 44:11
  companions, simpler stories, and sort of a very optimistic leap
• 44:17
  into the universe? Absolutely.
• 44:19
  I really like all three of those seasons.
• 44:23
  Definitely, definitely. I mean, obviously the difference
• 44:27
  with 19 is there is recurring elements coming back.
• 44:30
  So we get the Saber Men back, we get the Master back twice.
• 44:32
  Other than that, it is brand new new stories and new ways of new
• 44:37
  story telling. Well, Fraser, we have dipped our
• 44:43
  toes into, but not quite left. Miss Bigly is free.
• 44:47
  We have taken a trip to run score of coloss We have.
• 44:52
  And now we've taken a little twirl around Cranly Manor.
• 44:57
  Where are we going next? Where are you and I going next?
• 45:01
  I've got this invite from this Geel Estram to pop round and
• 45:09
  look at his castle. I do like a castle, I like a
• 45:11
  nice castle. So I thought we'll probably pop
• 45:13
  round and visit him, see what he's up to.
• 45:15
  Will there be any jousting on while we're there?
• 45:18
  Hopefully, you know, hopefully a bit of a bit of a joust, you
• 45:22
  know, if there's some music on, that'll be he's got to turn on.
• 45:25
  I had a lovely spread at Cranley Manor.
• 45:27
  Will there be a spread at the castle?
• 45:30
  I'd like to think so. I mean this this geals fellow.
• 45:32
  He sounds a bit. I don't know too much about
• 45:35
  them, but he seems a decent enough.
• 45:37
  So what I'm sure you'll put a spread on for.
• 45:40
  Her. Oh, here.
• 45:40
  He's got a very impressive beard.
• 45:47
  Well, fabulous. Well, let's let's skip over to
• 45:51
  is it Leeds Castle? Now that's the androids.
• 45:52
  Atara Bodium Castle. Odium Castle, Yes.
• 45:56
  Let's head down there and see what's on.
• 45:58
  To see what machinations are occurring there, thank you very
• 46:01
  much. As ever, talking about Doctor
• 46:03
  Who is the most effortless thing with you it is.
• 46:06
  Thank you very much for having me on to talk about it again.
• 46:08
  And thanks for telling me off at least four times just in the
• 46:12
  last four minutes.