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Opening to Our Deepest Ground: Illuminating the Journey of Healing and Awakening · Deep Transformation

0:00
Welcome
0:00
to
0:01
part
0:01
one
0:01
of
0:01
our
0:02
conversation
0:02
with
0:03
John
0:03
Prendergast,
0:04
depth
0:05
psychologist,
0:06
author
0:06
and
0:07
spiritual
0:07
teacher,
0:08
where
0:08
we
0:08
discuss
0:09
what
0:09
is
0:09
our
0:09
deepest
0:10
ground
0:10
and
0:10
what
0:11
keeps
0:11
us
0:11
from
0:12
knowing
0:12
this
0:12
and
0:13
our
0:13
true
0:13
nature
0:14
and
0:14
how
0:14
we
0:14
can
0:14
embody
0:15
the
0:15
ground
0:15
of
0:15
our
0:15
own
0:16
being
0:16
and
0:16
the
0:17
deep
0:17
transformation
0:18
that
0:18
this
0:18
embodiment
0:19
brings.
0:23
Welcome
0:24
to
0:24
deep
0:25
transformation.
0:26
Self,
0:27
society,
0:28
spirit,
0:29
life
0:29
enhancing
0:30
paradigm
0:31
rattling
0:31
conversations
0:32
with
0:32
cutting
0:33
edge
0:33
thinkers,
0:34
contemplatives
0:35
and
0:35
activists
0:37
with
0:37
Dr.
0:37
Roger
0:37
Walsh
0:38
and
0:38
John
0:39
Dupuy
0:40
join
0:40
us
0:40
in
0:41
the
0:41
evolutionary
0:42
fast
0:42
lane
0:42
as
0:43
we
0:43
take
0:43
a
0:43
deep
0:44
dive
0:44
into
0:45
transformational
0:46
practice.
0:48
Peak
0:48
experience,
0:50
profound
0:51
understanding,
0:52
powerful
0:53
contribution.
0:57
I'm
0:57
Roger
0:57
Walsh
0:58
and
0:58
our
0:59
co
0:59
host
0:59
is
0:59
John
1:00
Dupuis.
1:01
And
1:01
our
1:01
guest
1:02
today
1:02
is
1:03
John
1:03
Prendergast
1:04
who
1:04
is
1:05
a
1:05
psychologist,
1:06
formerly
1:07
a
1:07
professor
1:07
of
1:08
psychology.
1:09
He's
1:09
also
1:09
a
1:10
spiritual
1:10
teacher.
1:11
Was
1:11
invited
1:11
to
1:12
teach
1:12
by
1:13
a
1:13
couple
1:13
of
1:13
people
1:14
including
1:14
Adyashanti,
1:16
and
1:16
he's
1:16
an
1:16
author.
1:17
And
1:17
the
1:17
most
1:18
recent
1:18
book
1:18
which
1:18
we'll
1:19
be
1:19
discussing
1:20
today
1:20
is
1:20
your
1:21
Deepest
1:21
Ground,
1:22
A
1:23
guide
1:23
to
1:23
embodied
1:24
spirituality.
1:26
John
1:26
is
1:26
also
1:26
the
1:27
author
1:27
of
1:27
several
1:27
other
1:28
books,
1:28
though
1:28
a
1:28
beautiful
1:29
one,
1:29
the
1:29
Deep,
1:31
Our
1:31
Portal
1:32
to
1:32
Presence.
1:33
Really
1:34
a
1:34
beautiful,
1:34
gentle
1:35
book
1:35
and
1:36
also
1:36
of
1:36
the
1:37
book
1:37
In
1:37
Touch,
1:38
how
1:39
to
1:39
tune
1:39
in
1:39
to
1:39
the
1:40
inner
1:40
guidance
1:40
of
1:40
your
1:41
body
1:41
and
1:42
trust
1:42
yourself.
1:44
And
1:44
a
1:44
series,
1:45
Sacred
1:46
Mirror,
1:46
Non
1:47
Dual
1:47
Wisdom
1:48
and
1:48
Psychotherapy.
1:49
But
1:50
today
1:50
we'll
1:50
zero
1:51
in
1:51
on
1:51
the
1:52
topic
1:52
of
1:52
John's
1:53
latest
1:53
book,
1:53
your
1:53
Deepest
1:54
Ground.
1:55
And
1:56
so
1:56
John,
1:56
welcome.
1:57
And
1:57
perhaps
1:57
we
1:57
can
1:58
start
1:58
with
1:58
the
1:58
obvious
1:58
question,
2:00
what
2:00
is
2:01
deepest
2:02
ground?
2:02
What
2:03
is
2:03
our
2:03
deepest
2:03
ground?
2:05
When
2:05
I
2:05
write
2:06
about
2:06
and
2:06
talk
2:06
about
2:07
the
2:07
ground,
2:08
I
2:08
use
2:08
it
2:08
in
2:08
two
2:09
ways.
2:09
One,
2:10
as
2:10
a
2:10
metaphor
2:11
for
2:12
a
2:12
felt
2:12
sense
2:13
of
2:14
aliveness
2:15
and
2:15
stability,
2:16
spacious,
2:17
alive
2:18
stability
2:18
that
2:19
we
2:19
feel
2:19
in
2:20
the
2:20
lower
2:21
part
2:21
of
2:21
our
2:21
body,
2:22
in
2:22
the
2:22
belly,
2:23
in
2:23
the
2:23
hips
2:24
and
2:24
the
2:24
legs.
2:26
So
2:27
where
2:27
this
2:27
really
2:27
comes
2:28
online
2:28
and
2:29
we
2:29
feel
2:29
ourselves
2:30
really
2:31
fully
2:31
inhabiting
2:32
the
2:32
body.
2:32
So
2:33
that's
2:33
the
2:33
subjective
2:34
sense
2:35
of
2:35
ground.
2:36
And
2:37
it's
2:37
palpable,
2:37
it's
2:38
visceral.
2:38
We
2:39
feel
2:40
as
2:40
that
2:41
ground
2:41
in
2:42
the
2:42
body
2:42
opens,
2:43
we
2:43
feel
2:43
like
2:43
we're
2:43
really
2:44
landing
2:45
here
2:45
in
2:46
a
2:46
very
2:46
expansive
2:47
and
2:47
open
2:48
way.
2:49
So
2:49
that's
2:49
the
2:50
subjective
2:50
sense.
2:51
And
2:51
then
2:51
I
2:52
also
2:52
use
2:52
it
2:53
as
2:54
a
2:54
metaphor
2:54
for
2:55
being
2:55
in
2:55
touch
2:55
with
2:55
reality.
2:56
And
2:56
there
2:57
are
2:57
different
2:57
levels
2:58
to
2:58
that.
2:58
There's
2:59
a
2:59
physical
2:59
level,
3:00
just
3:00
being
3:01
in
3:01
touch
3:01
with
3:01
our
3:01
body.
3:02
There's
3:03
a
3:03
mental
3:03
level
3:04
of
3:04
just
3:04
having
3:04
a
3:05
clear
3:05
capacity
3:06
for
3:06
clear
3:06
thought,
3:07
an
3:07
emotional
3:08
clarity
3:08
or
3:09
groundedness,
3:10
being
3:10
in
3:10
touch
3:10
with
3:10
our
3:11
feelings,
3:12
subtle
3:12
energies,
3:13
being
3:13
in
3:14
touch
3:14
with
3:14
those
3:14
within
3:15
our
3:15
body
3:15
and
3:16
interpersonally
3:17
as
3:18
well.
3:18
And
3:18
then
3:19
the
3:19
deepest
3:19
ground,
3:20
which
3:20
is
3:20
ungraspable,
3:22
unfathomable,
3:23
and
3:24
which
3:24
is
3:25
referred
3:25
to
3:26
with
3:26
many
3:27
names,
3:28
you
3:28
know,
3:29
as
3:29
the
3:29
radiant
3:30
void,
3:30
as
3:30
Buddha
3:31
nature,
3:31
as
3:32
Christ
3:32
consciousness.
3:33
Something
3:34
that
3:34
is
3:35
without
3:35
quality
3:36
and
3:37
yet
3:38
we
3:38
know
3:38
it,
3:39
can
3:39
know
3:39
it
3:39
intimately
3:41
as
3:41
a
3:41
ground
3:41
of
3:42
awareness.
3:42
It
3:42
has
3:43
a
3:43
quality
3:43
of
3:43
open,
3:43
unbounded
3:44
openness
3:45
to
3:46
it.
3:46
But
3:46
touching
3:47
into
3:47
this
3:47
nothingness,
3:48
it's
3:49
like
3:49
changes
3:50
everything.
3:51
It
3:51
does,
3:52
it
3:52
absolutely
3:53
does.
3:53
Because
3:54
we
3:54
generally
3:55
take
3:55
ourselves
3:55
as
3:55
a
3:56
fragment,
3:57
you
3:57
know,
3:57
as
3:57
a
3:57
contracted
3:58
separate
3:59
being.
4:00
And
4:00
when
4:00
the
4:00
bottom
4:01
falls
4:01
out
4:02
and
4:02
the
4:02
walls
4:03
come
4:03
off
4:03
and
4:03
the
4:03
roof
4:04
comes
4:04
off,
4:05
and
4:05
we
4:05
know
4:06
ourselves
4:06
as
4:06
this
4:07
empty
4:07
openness,
4:08
as
4:08
no
4:08
thingness.
4:09
It
4:09
provides
4:10
a
4:10
completely
4:11
different
4:11
context
4:12
for
4:13
how
4:13
we
4:13
experience
4:13
ourself
4:14
and
4:14
how
4:15
we
4:15
experience
4:15
the
4:15
world
4:16
and
4:16
how
4:16
we
4:16
move
4:17
from
4:17
a
4:18
very
4:18
different
4:18
place.
4:19
A
4:19
place
4:19
of
4:20
love,
4:20
a
4:20
place
4:20
of
4:21
deep
4:22
peace,
4:23
groundedness.
4:24
So
4:24
yeah,
4:25
when
4:25
I
4:25
talk
4:25
about
4:26
your
4:26
deepest
4:26
ground,
4:26
this
4:27
is
4:27
what
4:27
I'm
4:27
referring
4:27
to.
4:29
John,
4:29
could
4:29
I
4:29
ask
4:29
you,
4:30
getting
4:30
on
4:30
the
4:30
subject
4:31
of
4:31
ground,
4:31
you
4:31
also
4:32
talk
4:32
a
4:32
lot
4:32
about
4:32
in
4:33
your
4:33
book
4:33
about
4:34
presence.
4:35
I
4:35
do.
4:35
And
4:35
can
4:36
you
4:36
distinguish
4:37
presence
4:38
from
4:38
ground?
4:40
Yes
4:41
and
4:41
no.
4:42
So
4:42
the
4:42
yes
4:43
is
4:44
the
4:44
ground
4:44
is,
4:45
I
4:45
would
4:46
say,
4:46
an
4:46
aspect
4:47
of
4:47
presence.
4:48
In
4:48
my
4:48
experience
4:49
working
4:49
with
4:49
myself
4:50
and
4:50
people
4:50
that
4:50
I've
4:50
worked
4:51
with
4:51
for
4:51
four
4:51
decades
4:52
now,
4:52
there
4:53
are
4:53
three
4:53
major
4:53
portals
4:54
to
4:54
presence.
4:55
One
4:55
is
4:55
through
4:56
the
4:56
mind,
4:56
one
4:57
is
4:57
through
4:57
the
4:57
heart,
4:57
one
4:58
is
4:58
through
4:58
the
4:58
ground.
4:59
It's
4:59
all
5:00
opening
5:00
to
5:01
the
5:01
same
5:02
non
5:02
thingness,
5:03
open,
5:04
radiant
5:05
presence.
5:06
But
5:06
they
5:06
have
5:06
different
5:06
flavors.
5:08
So
5:08
the
5:08
opening
5:09
of
5:09
the
5:09
mind
5:09
brings
5:10
a
5:10
sense
5:10
of
5:10
tremendous
5:10
spaciousness
5:11
and
5:11
clarity.
5:12
The
5:13
openness
5:13
of
5:13
the
5:13
heart,
5:14
tremendous
5:15
love,
5:16
compassion,
5:17
a
5:17
sense
5:17
of
5:17
wholeness
5:18
and
5:18
non
5:18
separation.
5:20
Openness
5:20
of
5:20
the
5:21
ground
5:21
gives
5:22
a
5:22
sense
5:22
of
5:22
tremendous
5:23
solidity.
5:24
And
5:24
so
5:25
these
5:25
are
5:25
all
5:25
we
5:25
could
5:26
say
5:26
essential
5:26
aspects
5:27
of
5:27
presence.
5:28
And
5:28
what's
5:29
interesting
5:29
is
5:29
when
5:29
we
5:30
open
5:30
to
5:30
the
5:30
ground,
5:30
initially
5:31
it
5:31
feels
5:32
like
5:32
a
5:32
descent,
5:33
like
5:33
the
5:33
bottom
5:34
opens
5:34
up.
5:35
But
5:35
as
5:35
it
5:36
continues
5:36
to
5:36
open,
5:37
it
5:37
becomes
5:37
global.
5:38
And
5:38
the
5:38
same
5:39
is
5:39
true
5:39
for
5:39
the
5:39
heart.
5:40
You
5:40
know,
5:40
at
5:40
first
5:40
it
5:41
feels
5:41
like
5:41
it's
5:41
centered
5:42
here,
5:43
mid
5:43
chest
5:43
and
5:44
back,
5:44
and
5:45
then
5:45
also
5:46
global
5:46
and
5:46
similarly
5:47
with
5:47
the
5:47
mind.
5:48
So
5:48
it's
5:48
like
5:48
they're
5:49
different
5:49
doors,
5:50
they
5:50
have
5:50
different
5:50
qualities
5:52
or
5:52
essential
5:52
qualities
5:53
of
5:54
being,
5:55
and
5:55
yet
5:55
they
5:55
all
5:56
are
5:56
aspects
5:57
of
5:57
awake
5:57
awareness.
5:58
And
5:58
so
5:58
when
5:58
I
5:58
speak
5:58
of
5:59
presence,
6:00
I'm
6:00
speaking
6:00
of
6:01
awake
6:01
awareness
6:01
and
6:02
these
6:02
different
6:02
portals
6:03
to
6:03
it.
6:05
And
6:05
John,
6:05
you
6:05
make
6:06
a
6:06
really
6:08
very
6:08
strong
6:09
statement
6:09
which
6:09
struck
6:10
me
6:10
so
6:10
much
6:10
that
6:11
I
6:11
copied
6:12
it
6:12
out.
6:13
You
6:13
said
6:13
that
6:13
in
6:14
over
6:14
40
6:14
years
6:15
of
6:15
work
6:15
with
6:15
students
6:16
and
6:16
clients,
6:17
and
6:17
you've
6:18
been
6:18
both
6:18
a
6:18
spiritual
6:19
teacher
6:19
and
6:19
a
6:19
psychotherapist,
6:21
you
6:21
say
6:21
in
6:22
over
6:22
40
6:22
years
6:22
of
6:22
work
6:23
with
6:23
students
6:23
and
6:23
clients,
6:24
the
6:24
presence
6:24
or
6:25
absence
6:25
of
6:25
ground
6:27
has
6:27
been
6:27
the
6:27
most
6:27
Important
6:28
theme.
6:29
That's
6:30
quite
6:30
a
6:30
statement.
6:31
It
6:31
is.
6:32
And
6:33
reason
6:34
being,
6:35
I
6:35
should
6:35
back
6:36
up
6:36
a
6:36
little
6:36
bit
6:37
just
6:37
to
6:37
say,
6:38
for
6:38
unknown
6:38
reasons,
6:40
I
6:40
am
6:40
particularly
6:41
sensitive
6:42
to
6:43
subtle
6:43
somatic
6:44
dimensions
6:44
of
6:44
the
6:44
body.
6:45
And
6:46
so
6:47
sitting
6:47
with
6:47
people
6:48
and
6:48
sitting
6:49
with
6:49
people
6:49
who
6:49
are
6:49
interested
6:50
in
6:50
really
6:51
a
6:51
deep
6:52
transformational
6:52
process
6:53
of
6:53
healing.
6:56
What
6:56
I've
6:56
discovered
6:57
is
6:58
very
6:58
often
6:58
in
6:59
that
6:59
process
6:59
of
7:00
awakening
7:00
and
7:00
opening,
7:01
people
7:03
encounter
7:04
a
7:04
deep
7:04
fear
7:04
of
7:04
letting
7:05
go.
7:06
Yes.
7:07
A
7:07
fear
7:07
of
7:07
losing
7:08
control
7:09
and
7:09
that
7:10
annihilation.
7:11
It's
7:11
a
7:11
fear
7:11
of
7:11
annihilation.
7:12
It's
7:12
like
7:12
if
7:13
we
7:13
lose
7:13
control,
7:14
if
7:15
I
7:15
lose
7:15
control,
7:15
I'll
7:16
die,
7:16
I'll
7:16
be
7:17
annihilated.
7:18
I'll
7:18
lose
7:18
who
7:19
I
7:19
am.
7:20
And
7:21
that
7:22
whole
7:22
system,
7:23
that
7:23
part
7:23
of
7:23
the
7:23
system
7:24
tends
7:24
to
7:24
localize
7:25
in
7:25
the
7:25
guts,
7:26
in
7:26
the
7:26
solar
7:27
plexus,
7:27
the
7:27
lower
7:28
belly
7:28
and
7:28
the
7:28
base
7:29
of
7:29
the
7:29
spine.
7:29
In
7:30
the
7:30
chakra
7:30
system,
7:31
three
7:31
lower
7:32
chakras.
7:33
And
7:33
so
7:33
again
7:34
and
7:34
again
7:34
in
7:34
my
7:34
work
7:35
with
7:35
people
7:35
as
7:35
they're
7:35
in
7:36
the
7:36
process
7:36
of
7:36
healing
7:37
and
7:37
awakening,
7:38
they
7:38
encounter
7:39
this
7:39
fear
7:39
of
7:39
losing
7:40
control
7:40
and
7:41
of
7:41
annihilation.
7:42
And
7:43
very
7:43
often
7:43
this
7:43
is
7:44
not
7:44
fully
7:44
conscious.
7:45
Often
7:45
it's
7:45
subconscious.
7:47
And
7:47
there
7:47
are
7:47
many
7:47
dimensions
7:48
to
7:48
that.
7:49
And
7:49
so
7:49
this
7:50
is
7:50
what
7:50
I'm
7:50
referring
7:51
to.
7:51
In
7:51
my
7:51
work
7:51
over
7:52
four
7:52
decades,
7:52
people
7:53
this
7:53
in
7:53
depth
7:54
work.
7:54
And
7:55
often
7:55
people
7:55
are
7:55
not
7:56
initially
7:56
aware
7:56
of
7:56
it.
7:57
So
7:57
when
7:57
we
7:57
sit
7:58
with
7:58
it
7:58
and
7:59
people
7:59
begin
7:59
to
7:59
open
7:59
and
8:00
then
8:00
they
8:00
find
8:00
their
8:00
process
8:02
becoming
8:03
in
8:03
some
8:03
way
8:04
inhibited.
8:05
And
8:05
as
8:05
we
8:05
explore
8:06
more
8:06
deeply,
8:07
they
8:07
come
8:07
into
8:08
these
8:08
contractions,
8:09
areas
8:09
of
8:09
contraction
8:10
in
8:10
the
8:10
lower
8:10
body
8:11
that
8:11
are
8:11
associated
8:12
with
8:13
this
8:13
fear
8:13
of
8:13
letting
8:13
go,
8:14
of
8:14
losing
8:14
control
8:14
and
8:15
of
8:15
annihilation.
8:16
But
8:17
ultimately
8:18
on
8:18
the
8:18
spiritual
8:19
journey,
8:19
this
8:20
life
8:20
or
8:20
next,
8:21
or
8:21
whenever
8:22
that's
8:22
something
8:22
that
8:23
happens.
8:24
It
8:24
is,
8:25
yeah.
8:25
If
8:25
we're
8:26
really
8:26
interested
8:27
in
8:27
embodying
8:28
our
8:28
essential
8:28
nature,
8:29
we
8:30
have
8:30
to
8:30
move
8:31
and
8:31
move
8:31
through
8:32
these
8:32
layers
8:32
of
8:33
resistance,
8:33
unconscious
8:34
resistance,
8:34
because
8:35
it's
8:35
not
8:35
enough.
8:36
This
8:36
up
8:36
and
8:36
out
8:37
transcendence
8:38
is
8:38
a
8:39
beautiful
8:39
first
8:39
step,
8:40
I
8:40
would
8:40
say.
8:41
But
8:41
really
8:41
there's
8:42
a
8:42
very
8:42
important
8:43
process
8:44
of
8:44
embodying
8:45
awareness
8:46
more
8:46
and
8:46
more
8:46
deeply
8:47
in
8:47
the
8:48
physical
8:48
body,
8:48
in
8:49
the
8:49
subtle
8:49
body.
8:50
And
8:50
this
8:51
is,
8:51
I
8:51
think,
8:51
very
8:51
important
8:52
as
8:53
an
8:53
integral
8:53
approach
8:54
to
8:54
spirituality.
8:55
Nicely
8:56
said.
8:56
And
8:56
you
8:57
seems
8:57
like
8:58
there
8:58
have
8:58
been
8:58
two
8:59
quite
9:00
different
9:00
perspectives
9:01
on
9:01
spiritual
9:02
life.
9:02
One
9:02
is
9:02
a
9:02
kind
9:03
of
9:03
up
9:03
and
9:03
out,
9:03
let's
9:04
get
9:04
the
9:04
hell
9:04
out
9:04
of
9:04
here.
9:05
This
9:05
place
9:05
sucks.
9:06
Oh
9:06
well,
9:07
there's
9:07
no
9:07
intelligent
9:08
life
9:08
here,
9:08
Scotty.
9:09
Beat
9:09
me
9:09
up
9:09
or
9:10
whatever
9:10
it
9:10
is.
9:12
Beat
9:12
me
9:12
up,
9:13
that's
9:13
right.
9:13
And
9:14
the
9:14
other
9:14
is,
9:16
yes,
9:17
a
9:17
moving
9:19
through
9:20
psychological
9:21
and
9:21
spiritual
9:21
limitations
9:22
to
9:23
a
9:23
transcendent
9:24
opening,
9:25
but
9:25
then
9:26
a
9:26
phase
9:27
of
9:27
full
9:28
embodiment
9:28
or.
9:29
And
9:29
you
9:29
use
9:29
the
9:30
story
9:30
of
9:30
the
9:30
myth
9:31
of
9:31
underground
9:31
descent,
9:33
and.
9:34
Which
9:34
is
9:35
very
9:35
closely
9:36
related
9:36
to
9:36
the
9:36
hero's
9:37
journey
9:37
as
9:37
defined
9:38
by
9:38
Joseph
9:39
Campbell
9:40
and
9:40
the
9:40
phase
9:41
of.
9:42
Or
9:42
of
9:42
Arnold
9:43
Toynbee,
9:44
the
9:44
great
9:44
historian,
9:44
who
9:45
said
9:45
that
9:45
the
9:45
distinguishing
9:46
feature
9:46
of
9:47
the
9:47
lives
9:47
of
9:47
those
9:48
people
9:48
who'd
9:48
contributed
9:49
most
9:49
to
9:49
humankind
9:51
was
9:51
that
9:52
they
9:52
went
9:52
through
9:52
a
9:52
cycle
9:53
of
9:53
withdrawal
9:54
and
9:54
return,
9:55
withdrew
9:56
from
9:56
society
9:57
and
9:57
conventional
9:58
life
9:59
to
9:59
some
9:59
deeper
10:00
inner
10:00
exploration,
10:01
had
10:02
some
10:02
kind
10:02
of
10:02
realization,
10:03
and
10:03
then
10:04
returned
10:04
to
10:05
offer
10:05
the
10:05
benefits.
10:06
It
10:06
sounds
10:06
like
10:06
that's
10:07
what
10:07
you're
10:07
describing.
10:08
It
10:08
is.
10:09
I
10:09
mean,
10:09
there
10:09
are.
10:10
I
10:10
think
10:11
what
10:11
I'm
10:11
describing
10:12
has
10:12
some
10:12
of
10:13
those
10:13
elements
10:14
of
10:14
a
10:14
necessary
10:15
descent
10:16
into
10:16
the
10:17
unconscious,
10:18
which
10:18
corresponds
10:19
with
10:19
these
10:19
kind
10:19
of
10:20
lower
10:21
energetic
10:21
centers.
10:22
But
10:23
maybe
10:23
unlike
10:24
the
10:24
hero's
10:25
myth
10:25
or
10:25
story,
10:27
it's
10:27
not
10:27
like
10:27
we
10:28
come
10:28
back
10:29
with
10:30
the
10:31
chalice
10:31
or
10:32
the
10:32
Golden
10:32
Fleece.
10:34
We
10:34
don't
10:35
emerge
10:35
as
10:36
a
10:36
recognizable
10:37
hero
10:38
to
10:38
society.
10:39
I
10:39
think
10:40
much
10:40
truer
10:41
is
10:41
that
10:41
we
10:42
emerge
10:43
much
10:44
more
10:44
simple,
10:45
much
10:45
more
10:46
humbly,
10:46
much
10:47
more
10:47
kind
10:47
of
10:47
stripped
10:48
and
10:48
open
10:49
and
10:49
available
10:51
to
10:51
life.
10:52
And
10:52
so
10:53
it's,
10:53
in
10:54
a
10:54
way,
10:54
the
10:54
hero
10:55
gets
10:55
lost,
10:56
you
10:56
know,
10:56
the
10:57
heroic
10:57
will,
10:58
you
10:58
know,
10:59
the
10:59
egoic
10:59
will
11:00
gets
11:00
lost
11:00
in
11:00
the
11:01
process
11:01
in
11:02
this
11:02
deep
11:02
descent.
11:03
And,
11:04
you
11:04
know,
11:04
Carl
11:05
Jung
11:05
was
11:06
also
11:06
articulating
11:07
descent
11:08
as
11:08
well,
11:08
and
11:08
something
11:09
that
11:09
he
11:09
experienced
11:09
in
11:10
a
11:10
very
11:10
tumultuous
11:11
way
11:12
over
11:12
a
11:13
century
11:13
ago
11:13
on
11:13
the
11:13
eve
11:14
of
11:14
World
11:14
War
11:14
I.
11:15
So
11:16
that
11:16
was
11:17
interesting
11:17
to
11:17
kind
11:17
of
11:18
revisit
11:18
Jung
11:18
as
11:19
I
11:19
was
11:19
exploring
11:20
this
11:21
question
11:21
of
11:21
the
11:21
multidimensionality
11:23
of
11:23
the
11:23
ground,
11:23
because
11:23
there
11:24
is
11:24
this
11:24
archetypal
11:25
dimension.
11:25
And
11:26
of
11:26
course,
11:26
this
11:26
is
11:27
what
11:27
Joseph
11:27
Campbell
11:28
was
11:28
pointing
11:29
to.
11:29
John,
11:30
you
11:30
also
11:30
mentioned.
11:31
And
11:31
I
11:31
really.
11:31
I'm
11:32
a
11:32
Tolkien
11:32
fan
11:32
and
11:33
I
11:33
like
11:33
stories.
11:34
And
11:34
you
11:35
mentioned
11:35
Gandalf
11:36
going
11:36
into
11:37
the
11:37
underworld
11:38
and
11:38
wrestling
11:39
with
11:39
Balrog.
11:40
I
11:40
think
11:40
that's
11:41
exactly
11:41
creature.
11:42
And
11:42
he
11:42
falls
11:43
descent,
11:44
you
11:44
know,
11:44
down
11:44
into
11:45
the
11:45
abyss.
11:46
And
11:47
then
11:47
he
11:47
comes
11:47
out
11:49
later
11:50
and
11:50
he's
11:51
transformed.
11:51
It's
11:52
like
11:52
he
11:52
doesn't
11:52
even
11:53
quite
11:53
know
11:53
himself
11:54
as
11:54
Gandalf,
11:55
and
11:55
the
11:55
people
11:55
don't
11:56
quite
11:56
recognize
11:57
him.
11:58
And
11:58
in
11:58
the
11:59
story
11:59
of
11:59
Jesus,
11:59
which
12:00
I
12:00
think
12:01
Tolkien
12:02
was
12:02
riffing
12:02
off
12:02
because
12:02
he
12:03
was
12:03
about
12:03
Catholic,
12:03
I
12:03
mean,
12:04
he
12:04
knew
12:04
that
12:04
story.
12:05
Jesus
12:05
dies
12:06
and
12:06
descends
12:07
into
12:07
the
12:07
lower
12:08
parts
12:08
of
12:08
the
12:08
world,
12:08
wherever
12:09
that
12:09
is,
12:10
and
12:10
then
12:10
he
12:10
comes
12:11
back
12:11
in
12:11
the
12:12
beginning,
12:12
his
12:12
disciples
12:13
don't
12:13
even
12:13
recognize
12:13
him.
12:14
That's
12:14
right.
12:15
Thomas
12:15
says,
12:15
I
12:15
want
12:15
to
12:16
stick
12:16
hands
12:16
in
12:16
the
12:16
wound
12:17
to
12:17
make
12:17
sure
12:17
it's
12:17
really
12:18
you.
12:18
Who
12:18
are
12:18
you?
12:19
So
12:19
there's
12:19
this
12:20
transformation
12:21
to
12:22
a
12:22
kind
12:22
of
12:22
a
12:22
new,
12:23
new
12:23
self
12:24
that
12:24
in
12:25
the
12:25
beginning,
12:25
we
12:25
have
12:26
to.
12:26
We
12:26
don't
12:26
know
12:26
ourselves,
12:27
and
12:27
those
12:28
around
12:28
us
12:28
don't
12:28
quite
12:29
know
12:29
how
12:29
to
12:29
explain
12:30
it
12:30
either.
12:31
So
12:31
have
12:31
you
12:32
found
12:32
that
12:32
in
12:32
your
12:32
work
12:33
with
12:33
your
12:33
students
12:34
and
12:34
yourself?
12:35
Yeah,
12:35
it's
12:35
true.
12:36
I
12:36
mean,
12:36
what
12:36
happens
12:37
is
12:37
our
12:37
ordinary
12:38
sense
12:38
of
12:38
identity
12:39
is
12:39
deeply,
12:40
deeply,
12:40
deeply
12:41
questioned
12:42
and
12:42
seen
12:42
and
12:43
seen
12:43
through.
12:44
So
12:44
it's
12:44
beautiful
12:45
to
12:45
bring
12:45
up
12:45
that
12:45
particular
12:46
teaching,
12:47
like
12:47
Christ
12:47
or
12:48
Jesus
12:48
descended
12:49
into
12:49
hell,
12:50
you
12:50
know,
12:50
and
12:51
then
12:51
rose
12:51
from
12:52
that.
12:52
And
12:52
that's
12:53
right.
12:53
Tolkien
12:53
was
12:54
a
12:54
devout
12:54
Catholic,
12:55
and
12:55
so
12:55
he
12:55
was
12:56
developing
12:56
that
12:57
theme.
12:57
And
12:57
we
12:57
see
12:57
it
12:57
in
12:58
Dante's
12:59
Inferno
12:59
with
12:59
that
13:00
descent
13:00
to
13:01
the
13:01
core
13:03
encounter
13:03
with,
13:04
you
13:04
know,
13:04
the
13:05
king,
13:05
devil,
13:06
and
13:06
the
13:06
descent
13:08
into
13:09
another
13:09
realm,
13:10
passing
13:10
through
13:10
that
13:11
to
13:11
Purgatorio
13:11
and
13:12
then
13:12
an
13:12
ascent
13:13
as
13:13
well.
13:13
So
13:14
it's
13:14
a
13:14
very,
13:14
very
13:15
deep
13:15
mythological
13:16
process
13:17
that
13:17
we
13:17
hear
13:17
about.
13:18
And
13:18
I
13:18
think
13:19
those
13:19
images
13:19
that
13:20
we
13:20
see,
13:20
whether
13:20
it's
13:21
Gandalf
13:22
not
13:22
quite
13:22
knowing
13:23
himself
13:23
and
13:23
not
13:23
quite
13:24
recognized
13:24
or
13:25
Jesus,
13:25
is
13:26
referring
13:26
to
13:26
a
13:26
kind
13:27
of
13:28
translucency
13:29
of
13:30
the
13:30
body,
13:30
mind
13:30
that
13:31
emerges
13:32
and
13:32
that
13:33
we
13:33
can
13:33
also
13:34
refer
13:34
to
13:35
as
13:35
a
13:35
kind
13:35
of
13:35
core
13:36
illumination.
13:37
So
13:38
in
13:38
the
13:38
very
13:38
core
13:39
of
13:39
the
13:39
body,
13:40
there
13:40
is
13:41
this
13:41
luminosity,
13:42
generally
13:43
unconscious.
13:44
And
13:45
as
13:45
people
13:45
begin
13:46
to
13:46
awaken,
13:48
particularly
13:48
in
13:48
this
13:49
descent
13:49
of
13:50
awareness
13:51
and
13:51
emergence
13:51
of
13:52
the
13:53
sense
13:53
of
13:53
the
13:54
spirit
13:54
in
13:55
everything,
13:55
the
13:56
immanence
13:56
of
13:56
spirit,
13:57
there
13:57
is
13:58
a
13:58
sense
13:58
of
13:58
the
13:58
interior
13:59
of
13:59
the
13:59
body
13:59
lighting
14:00
up.
14:01
And
14:01
so
14:02
what
14:02
we
14:02
took
14:02
to
14:02
be
14:02
dense
14:03
and
14:03
solid
14:04
actually
14:05
just
14:05
reveals
14:06
itself
14:06
as
14:07
much
14:07
more
14:07
translucent,
14:08
much
14:08
more
14:09
luminous.
14:10
And
14:10
these
14:10
are
14:11
the
14:11
themes
14:11
that
14:11
we
14:11
see
14:12
articulated
14:13
in
14:13
these
14:13
different
14:13
traditions,
14:14
this
14:14
kind
14:14
of
14:15
inherent,
14:16
dormant
14:16
luminosity
14:18
that
14:18
emerges
14:19
as
14:20
there's
14:20
growing
14:21
intimacy
14:21
with
14:21
essential
14:22
nature,
14:23
an
14:23
embodied
14:23
sense
14:24
of
14:24
essential
14:24
nature.
14:25
And
14:25
I
14:25
have
14:25
felt
14:26
that
14:26
in
14:26
myself.
14:27
I
14:27
mean,
14:27
this
14:28
whole
14:28
description
14:29
of
14:29
the
14:29
opening
14:30
of
14:30
the
14:30
ground
14:31
was
14:31
really
14:31
unfamiliar
14:32
territory
14:34
until
14:35
probably.
14:36
I
14:36
mean,
14:37
there
14:37
were
14:37
hints
14:37
of
14:37
it,
14:38
but
14:38
it
14:38
really
14:38
wasn't
14:39
until
14:39
maybe
14:39
20,
14:40
25
14:40
years
14:41
ago
14:41
that
14:42
it
14:42
started
14:42
to
14:42
come
14:42
online,
14:43
maybe.
14:44
No,
14:44
as
14:44
I
14:44
say
14:44
that
14:45
that's
14:45
not
14:45
quite
14:45
right.
14:46
I
14:46
can
14:46
see
14:47
earlier
14:48
evidence
14:49
of
14:49
that,
14:49
but
14:50
it
14:50
really
14:51
gained
14:51
force
14:52
in
14:52
the
14:52
last
14:52
20
14:53
years,
14:53
both
14:54
in
14:54
terms
14:54
of
14:54
my
14:54
own
14:54
experience
14:55
and
14:55
as
14:55
I
14:55
could
14:56
sense
14:56
my.
14:56
This
14:57
kind
14:57
of
14:57
interior
14:57
luminosity
14:58
as
14:59
there
14:59
was
14:59
a
14:59
process
15:00
of
15:00
healing
15:00
and
15:00
awakening.
15:01
I
15:01
could
15:02
also
15:02
sense
15:02
it
15:02
in
15:03
others,
15:03
often
15:03
before
15:03
they
15:04
did.
15:04
But
15:05
when
15:05
I
15:05
would
15:05
point
15:05
to
15:05
it,
15:06
they
15:06
could
15:06
recognize
15:07
it
15:07
as
15:07
well.
15:09
You
15:09
also
15:09
mentioned
15:10
in
15:10
what
15:10
I've
15:10
read
15:11
about
15:11
your
15:11
life
15:12
story
15:12
that
15:12
you
15:12
spend
15:13
a
15:13
lot
15:13
of
15:13
time
15:13
in
15:13
wilderness,
15:14
both
15:15
backpacking
15:16
into
15:16
wilderness
15:16
with
15:17
others
15:17
and
15:18
by
15:18
yourself.
15:19
And
15:20
has
15:20
that
15:21
been
15:21
a
15:22
part
15:22
of
15:23
this
15:24
process
15:24
that
15:24
you've
15:25
been
15:25
going
15:25
through?
15:25
Not
15:26
so
15:26
much.
15:26
I
15:26
mean,
15:27
I
15:27
think
15:27
it's.
15:28
I
15:28
love
15:29
the
15:29
high
15:29
country.
15:30
I'm
15:30
just,
15:31
you
15:31
know,
15:32
I
15:32
love
15:32
the
15:32
high
15:32
Sierra.
15:33
And
15:33
mostly
15:34
I
15:34
go
15:34
with
15:34
others,
15:35
you
15:35
know,
15:35
with
15:35
friends
15:35
and
15:36
just
15:36
occasionally
15:37
solo.
15:38
But
15:38
when
15:38
I
15:38
do,
15:39
you
15:39
know,
15:40
when
15:40
I
15:40
do
15:40
go
15:40
to
15:40
the
15:40
high
15:41
country,
15:41
in
15:41
that
15:41
silence,
15:42
in
15:42
that
15:42
stillness,
15:43
in
15:43
that
15:44
remarkable
15:44
beauty,
15:45
luminosity.
15:46
This
15:46
is
15:47
really
15:47
called,
15:47
you
15:47
know,
15:48
into
15:48
the
15:48
foreground
15:48
of
15:49
experience.
15:50
But
15:50
no,
15:50
it
15:50
hasn't
15:51
been
15:51
so
15:51
much
15:51
time
15:52
in
15:52
nature
15:53
that's
15:53
been
15:53
facilitative
15:54
as
15:54
it
15:55
has
15:55
been
15:56
a
15:56
long
15:56
standing
15:57
meditation
15:57
practice
15:58
and
15:58
practice
15:59
of
15:59
self
15:59
inquiry
16:00
and
16:00
time
16:01
with
16:01
authentic
16:02
teachers.
16:03
I
16:03
really
16:03
needed
16:04
the
16:04
help
16:04
of
16:04
attuned
16:05
guides
16:06
to
16:06
help
16:07
me
16:07
see
16:08
through
16:08
the
16:08
obscurations
16:09
and
16:10
places
16:11
of
16:11
fixation.
16:12
So
16:12
both
16:13
practice
16:13
my
16:14
own
16:14
meditative
16:14
practice
16:15
and
16:15
self
16:16
inquiry
16:16
practice,
16:17
but
16:17
also
16:17
my
16:18
time
16:18
spent
16:18
with
16:18
authentic
16:19
teachers.
16:20
That's
16:20
been
16:20
the
16:20
primary
16:21
on
16:21
a
16:21
retreat.
16:22
It's
16:22
been,
16:22
I
16:22
would
16:23
say,
16:23
the
16:23
primary
16:23
facilitative
16:24
factor.
16:25
Yeah.
16:26
And
16:26
you
16:26
mentioned
16:26
that
16:26
Ajat
16:27
Shanti
16:27
was
16:27
one
16:28
of
16:28
your
16:28
primary
16:29
teachers.
16:29
What
16:30
a
16:30
remarkable
16:30
man.
16:31
I
16:31
think
16:31
he's
16:31
retired
16:32
from
16:32
teaching
16:32
now.
16:33
Yeah,
16:33
he
16:33
did,
16:34
but
16:34
I've
16:35
had
16:35
a.
16:35
Couple
16:36
of
16:36
experiences
16:37
with
16:37
him
16:37
and
16:38
I
16:38
don't
16:39
trust
16:40
spiritual
16:40
teachers
16:41
for
16:41
a
16:41
lot
16:41
of
16:41
personal
16:41
reasons.
16:42
And
16:42
I
16:42
used
16:42
to
16:42
say
16:42
when
16:43
somebody
16:43
says
16:43
they're
16:43
a
16:43
spiritual
16:44
teacher,
16:44
I
16:44
grab
16:44
my
16:45
pants
16:45
and
16:45
grab
16:45
my
16:46
wallet
16:46
and
16:46
get
16:46
out
16:46
of
16:46
the
16:46
room.
16:47
Right.
16:47
But
16:48
I
16:48
certainly
16:48
felt
16:50
that
16:50
this
16:50
is
16:50
a
16:50
good
16:50
guy.
16:51
This
16:51
man
16:51
knows
16:52
where
16:52
if
16:52
he
16:52
speaks.
16:53
And
16:53
I
16:53
immediately
16:54
felt
16:54
openness
16:55
and
16:55
trust
16:55
to
16:55
him.
16:56
Really
16:56
remarkable.
16:57
Yeah,
16:58
very
16:58
high
16:58
integrity,
16:59
very
16:59
authentic.
17:00
And
17:00
I
17:01
felt
17:01
the
17:01
same
17:01
thing.
17:01
I
17:02
went
17:02
to
17:02
hear,
17:03
I
17:03
worked
17:03
with
17:03
Jean
17:04
Klein
17:04
for
17:05
probably
17:06
over
17:06
15
17:06
years
17:07
and
17:07
then
17:07
he
17:07
passed
17:07
away.
17:08
And
17:09
a
17:09
friend
17:09
invited
17:10
me
17:10
to
17:10
come
17:11
to
17:11
a
17:11
talk
17:11
of
17:11
Adyashanti.
17:12
And
17:13
I
17:13
immediately
17:13
felt
17:14
the
17:14
same
17:14
presence
17:15
and
17:15
resonance.
17:16
I
17:16
had
17:16
to
17:17
go
17:17
through
17:18
a
17:18
letting
17:18
go
17:18
of
17:19
my
17:19
loyalty
17:20
in
17:20
a
17:20
way
17:21
to
17:21
working
17:21
with
17:21
Jean
17:21
Klein
17:22
in
17:22
order
17:22
to
17:22
be
17:23
open
17:23
to
17:23
Adya.
17:24
That
17:24
was
17:24
an
17:24
interesting
17:25
process,
17:25
but
17:26
it
17:26
seemed
17:26
like
17:26
he
17:26
just
17:27
took
17:27
over,
17:27
you
17:27
know,
17:28
where
17:28
Jean
17:28
had
17:29
left
17:29
off
17:29
and
17:30
was.
17:30
I
17:31
mean,
17:31
it's
17:31
a
17:31
mysterious
17:32
thing,
17:32
the
17:32
connection
17:33
with
17:33
a
17:33
teacher.
17:33
It's
17:34
very
17:34
individual,
17:35
it's
17:35
very
17:35
a
17:35
matter
17:36
of
17:36
resonance
17:36
and
17:37
intuition.
17:38
But
17:38
I
17:38
felt
17:38
that
17:38
immediate
17:39
connection
17:40
and
17:40
recognition
17:40
of
17:41
Adyan
17:42
as
17:42
my
17:42
next
17:43
teacher.
17:43
And
17:44
he
17:44
was
17:44
extremely
17:45
helpful
17:46
in
17:46
this
17:46
process
17:47
of
17:47
opening
17:48
for
17:48
me.
17:48
And
17:48
we've,
17:49
we've
17:49
stayed
17:49
in
17:50
touch
17:50
and
17:50
been
17:50
friends.
17:51
So.
17:51
Yeah,
17:52
that's
17:53
beautiful.
17:53
Thank
17:53
you.
17:54
Yeah.
17:55
John,
17:55
I
17:56
want
17:56
to
17:56
go
17:57
back
17:57
and
17:57
just
17:57
touch
17:57
into
17:58
something
17:58
you
17:58
said
17:58
before
17:59
which
17:59
I
18:00
had
18:00
not
18:00
heard
18:00
before.
18:01
And
18:01
that
18:01
was
18:02
I
18:02
was.
18:02
I
18:03
had
18:03
brought
18:04
in
18:04
the
18:04
Joseph
18:05
Campbell's
18:06
hero's
18:07
journey
18:07
and
18:07
the
18:07
return
18:08
of
18:08
the
18:09
hero.
18:09
And
18:09
you
18:09
spoke
18:09
of
18:10
the
18:10
hero
18:10
in
18:10
a
18:10
way
18:10
I
18:11
hadn't
18:11
heard
18:11
of
18:11
before,
18:12
which
18:12
I
18:12
thought
18:12
was
18:12
very
18:13
striking,
18:13
important.
18:14
But,
18:14
you
18:15
know,
18:15
maybe
18:15
in
18:16
some
18:16
of
18:16
the
18:16
deeper
18:17
inner
18:18
journeys
18:19
the
18:19
heroic
18:20
will
18:21
is
18:22
released
18:23
and
18:23
one
18:23
comes
18:23
back
18:24
not
18:25
as
18:25
a.
18:28
In
18:28
quotation
18:28
marks
18:29
hero
18:29
in
18:30
any
18:30
way,
18:30
perhaps
18:31
not
18:31
even
18:31
recognizable,
18:32
as
18:32
with
18:32
the
18:33
10ox
18:33
herding
18:34
picture
18:34
where
18:34
the
18:34
sage
18:35
is
18:35
unrecognized,
18:36
but
18:37
perhaps
18:37
in
18:37
a
18:37
very
18:38
simple
18:38
way,
18:39
stripped
18:40
of
18:40
a
18:40
lot
18:40
of
18:41
the
18:41
baggage
18:43
or
18:44
even
18:44
psychological
18:46
dynamisms
18:47
that
18:48
brought
18:48
us
18:49
onto
18:49
the
18:49
path.
18:50
Yeah,
18:50
I
18:50
think
18:50
so.
18:51
And
18:51
the
18:51
Oxfording
18:52
pictures,
18:52
I
18:52
think
18:53
is
18:54
an
18:54
interesting
18:54
and
18:55
important
18:56
metaphor
18:57
because
18:58
there
18:58
is
18:58
a
18:59
returning
18:59
to
18:59
the
19:00
world,
19:00
so
19:00
to
19:00
speak,
19:01
but
19:01
in
19:01
a
19:02
very
19:02
simplified
19:03
way.
19:03
And
19:04
it's
19:04
difficult
19:04
to
19:05
actually
19:06
grasp,
19:07
I
19:07
would
19:07
say
19:07
that
19:08
is
19:08
to
19:08
say,
19:08
to
19:08
define
19:09
who
19:10
one
19:10
is.
19:10
And
19:10
there's
19:11
not
19:11
interest
19:11
in
19:11
doing
19:12
that.
19:14
I
19:14
think
19:14
that's
19:14
the
19:14
most
19:15
important
19:15
thing.
19:15
It's
19:15
like
19:16
I
19:16
don't
19:16
need
19:17
to
19:17
know
19:17
who
19:17
I
19:18
am
19:18
as
19:18
a
19:19
story
19:19
or
19:19
as
19:19
an
19:20
image.
19:20
And
19:21
one
19:21
is.
19:21
It's
19:21
more
19:22
of
19:22
a
19:22
sense
19:22
of
19:22
just
19:23
opening
19:23
to
19:24
life
19:24
and
19:25
listening
19:25
and
19:26
following
19:27
moment
19:27
to
19:27
moment.
19:28
So
19:28
it
19:28
doesn't
19:29
have
19:29
a
19:29
heroic
19:30
accomplishment
19:32
in
19:32
a
19:33
certain
19:33
way.
19:33
It's
19:33
not
19:33
an
19:33
accomplishment
19:34
or
19:34
an
19:34
achievement
19:35
or
19:35
an
19:35
attainment,
19:36
which
19:36
is
19:37
how
19:37
we
19:37
normally
19:37
think
19:38
about
19:38
achieving
19:39
a
19:39
goal.
19:39
Because
19:40
all
19:40
of
19:40
that
19:40
just
19:41
like
19:41
dissolves
19:42
and
19:42
there's
19:43
a
19:43
recognition.
19:44
What
19:44
I
19:44
have
19:44
been
19:44
looking
19:45
for,
19:46
I
19:46
am
19:47
and
19:48
as
19:48
is
19:49
everyone
19:49
else.
19:50
And
19:50
so
19:51
there's
19:51
no
19:51
hierarchy,
19:52
there's
19:53
no
19:53
sense
19:53
of
19:53
I'm
19:54
better
19:54
than
19:55
that,
19:55
I've
19:56
accomplished
19:56
anything.
19:57
But
19:57
that
19:58
whole
19:58
kind
19:58
of
19:58
seeking
19:59
mechanism
20:00
falls
20:00
away.
20:01
And
20:01
there's
20:01
a
20:02
simplicity
20:03
and
20:03
an
20:03
openness.
20:04
So
20:04
in
20:04
that
20:05
sense,
20:05
it's
20:05
a
20:05
bit
20:06
different
20:06
than
20:07
our
20:07
normal
20:07
understanding
20:08
of
20:09
the
20:09
hero
20:09
or
20:10
a
20:10
heroine's
20:10
journey.
20:12
Yes.
20:12
And
20:13
I
20:14
have
20:14
to
20:14
say
20:14
I
20:15
love
20:15
this
20:15
book,
20:15
John.
20:16
Your
20:16
Deepest
20:16
Ground
20:17
is
20:17
really
20:17
a
20:17
very
20:18
beautiful,
20:19
heartful,
20:21
truly
20:21
authentic
20:22
work.
20:22
And
20:23
I
20:23
have
20:23
a
20:24
copied
20:24
out
20:24
various
20:25
quotes
20:25
to
20:26
read
20:26
at
20:26
various
20:26
places
20:27
or
20:27
to
20:28
pose
20:28
to
20:28
you.
20:28
But
20:29
since
20:29
you're
20:30
bringing
20:30
in
20:30
this
20:31
idea
20:32
of
20:33
the
20:33
person
20:33
who
20:33
returns
20:34
from
20:34
the
20:35
quest
20:35
as
20:36
a
20:36
simpler,
20:37
as
20:37
in
20:38
some
20:38
ways
20:39
very
20:39
unpretentious,
20:41
shall
20:41
we
20:41
say.
20:42
You
20:42
point
20:43
out
20:43
that
20:44
it's
20:44
very
20:45
easy
20:46
to
20:46
have
20:47
idealized
20:48
view
20:48
of
20:49
saints
20:49
and
20:49
sages
20:51
and
20:52
your
20:52
caution
20:53
seem
20:53
you
20:53
give
20:53
some
20:54
wise
20:54
caution
20:55
about
20:56
idealizing
20:57
them
20:57
and
20:57
assuming
20:58
that
20:58
we
20:58
can
20:58
become
20:59
those
20:59
ideals.
21:01
Yeah,
21:01
well,
21:02
I
21:02
think
21:02
there's
21:03
a
21:03
tyranny
21:04
of
21:04
idealization
21:05
that
21:05
many
21:06
people
21:06
on
21:06
the
21:06
spiritual
21:07
path,
21:07
myself
21:07
included,
21:08
got
21:08
caught
21:09
in.
21:09
You
21:09
know,
21:10
you
21:10
read
21:10
the
21:10
books
21:10
about,
21:11
you
21:11
know,
21:11
I
21:11
came
21:12
through
21:12
the
21:12
Indian
21:12
tradition
21:13
So
21:14
when
21:14
I
21:14
first
21:15
read.
21:15
I
21:15
was
21:16
an
21:16
undergraduate
21:17
at
21:17
the
21:17
University
21:17
of
21:17
California
21:18
and
21:18
someone
21:19
gave
21:19
me
21:20
Yogananda's
21:20
autobiography.
21:22
I
21:22
read
21:22
that
21:22
and
21:22
it's
21:23
like,
21:23
wow,
21:23
you
21:23
know,
21:24
how
21:24
remarkable,
21:25
all
21:25
these
21:25
special
21:26
qualities
21:27
and
21:27
higher
21:27
states
21:28
of
21:28
consciousness.
21:28
So
21:29
that
21:29
was
21:29
kind
21:30
of
21:30
my
21:30
model.
21:31
You
21:31
know,
21:31
it's
21:31
like
21:31
higher
21:32
states
21:32
and,
21:33
you
21:33
know,
21:33
these
21:33
saints.
21:34
And
21:35
I
21:35
have
21:35
to
21:35
confess,
21:36
I
21:36
had
21:36
an
21:36
early
21:36
ambition
21:37
to
21:37
be
21:37
a
21:37
saint.
21:40
That's
21:40
not
21:40
all
21:41
bad.
21:41
But
21:41
one
21:41
of
21:41
the
21:41
things
21:42
I
21:42
took
21:42
away
21:42
from
21:42
that
21:42
book,
21:43
I
21:43
was
21:43
very
21:43
moved
21:44
by
21:44
it
21:44
also,
21:44
was
21:45
the
21:45
deep
21:45
humility
21:47
of
21:47
this
21:47
man.
21:47
It's
21:48
like,
21:49
again,
21:49
somebody's
21:50
been
21:51
touched
21:51
by
21:51
grace
21:52
or
21:52
been
21:52
gifted
21:53
something.
21:53
So
21:53
not
21:54
taking
21:54
a
21:54
lot
21:54
of
21:55
personal
21:55
credit
21:55
for
21:56
it.
21:56
Well,
21:57
that's
21:57
what
21:57
it
21:57
is.
21:58
It's
21:58
like
21:58
you
21:58
can't
21:59
hold
21:59
on
21:59
to
21:59
any
21:59
of
22:00
it
22:00
because
22:00
it
22:01
actually
22:01
doesn't
22:01
belong
22:02
or
22:02
refer
22:02
to
22:03
you.
22:04
And
22:04
who
22:05
we
22:05
are,
22:05
what
22:05
we
22:06
discover
22:06
in
22:06
this
22:07
process
22:07
of
22:07
opening
22:08
of
22:08
inquiry
22:09
is
22:10
we're
22:10
not
22:10
who
22:10
we
22:11
think
22:11
we
22:11
are
22:13
and
22:13
with
22:14
our
22:14
mind
22:15
define
22:15
who
22:15
or
22:16
what
22:16
we
22:16
are.
22:17
But
22:17
there
22:17
is
22:17
an
22:17
intuitive
22:18
recognition.
22:20
There's
22:20
a
22:20
sense
22:20
of
22:20
being
22:21
at
22:21
ease
22:22
at
22:22
home,
22:23
of
22:25
discovering
22:25
a
22:25
deep
22:26
sense
22:26
of
22:26
peace
22:27
and
22:28
also
22:28
knowing
22:28
this
22:29
is
22:29
true
22:29
for
22:29
everyone,
22:30
right?
22:31
That
22:31
this
22:31
doesn't
22:32
make
22:32
one
22:32
special.
22:33
It
22:34
releases
22:34
us
22:35
from
22:35
the
22:35
desire
22:36
to
22:36
be
22:36
special
22:37
or
22:37
the
22:37
need
22:37
to
22:38
be
22:38
special.
22:38
It's
22:39
a
22:39
real
22:39
homecoming.
22:40
There's
22:41
a
22:41
naturalness
22:41
to
22:42
it,
22:42
as,
22:42
you
22:42
know,
22:42
we're
22:43
using
22:43
the
22:43
word
22:43
unpretentious.
22:44
It's
22:44
like,
22:45
I
22:45
don't
22:45
have
22:45
to
22:45
pretend
22:46
to
22:46
be
22:47
someone
22:47
or
22:48
something.
22:48
I
22:49
can
22:49
simply
22:50
be
22:50
as
22:50
I
22:50
am.
22:51
And
22:51
being
22:51
as
22:52
I
22:52
am
22:52
means
22:52
I'm
22:53
also
22:53
a
22:53
conditioned
22:54
being.
22:55
I
22:55
have
22:55
flaws,
22:56
I
22:56
have
22:56
limitations.
22:57
I
22:58
am
22:58
learning.
22:58
I
22:59
am
22:59
growing
23:00
as
23:00
an
23:00
individual.
23:01
And
23:02
to
23:03
recognize
23:03
our
23:04
true
23:04
nature,
23:05
which
23:05
is
23:05
unconditioned
23:06
and
23:06
open
23:07
and
23:07
boundless,
23:09
actually
23:09
gives
23:09
space
23:09
for
23:10
us
23:10
to
23:10
be
23:11
simple
23:12
and
23:12
natural
23:12
and
23:13
human
23:14
releases
23:15
us
23:15
from
23:15
the
23:16
ideal
23:16
of
23:17
who
23:17
we
23:17
think
23:17
we
23:17
should
23:18
be
23:19
and
23:19
allows
23:20
us
23:20
to
23:20
just
23:21
simply
23:21
be
23:21
as
23:21
we
23:21
are.
23:22
And
23:22
that
23:22
actually
23:22
gives
23:23
space
23:23
not
23:24
only
23:24
for
23:24
our
23:25
kind
23:25
of
23:25
ordinary
23:25
humanity
23:26
and
23:26
our
23:26
conditioning,
23:27
but
23:28
for
23:28
deeper
23:28
elements
23:29
that
23:29
are
23:29
essential,
23:30
like
23:30
our
23:31
gifts,
23:31
let's
23:31
say,
23:32
to
23:32
come
23:32
out
23:32
and
23:33
be
23:33
shared
23:34
in
23:34
a
23:34
way
23:35
that
23:35
feels
23:36
appropriate
23:36
and
23:37
natural.
23:39
As
23:40
a.
23:40
No,
23:40
I
23:40
think
23:41
a
23:41
Protestant
23:41
poem
23:42
or
23:42
was
23:42
a
23:42
hymn,
23:42
but
23:43
the
23:43
line
23:43
stuck
23:43
with
23:43
me.
23:44
It
23:44
says,
23:44
ready
23:45
to
23:45
go,
23:45
Ready
23:46
to
23:46
stay
23:47
Ready
23:47
my
23:47
place
23:48
to
23:48
fill.
23:48
Ready
23:48
for
23:49
service.
23:49
Smaller.
23:50
Great.
23:50
Ready
23:51
to
23:51
do
23:51
God's
23:51
will.
23:52
Beautiful.
23:53
So
23:53
whatever
23:54
you're
23:54
called
23:54
to
23:55
do,
23:55
true
23:56
humility,
23:57
in
23:57
that
23:57
sense
23:57
of
23:58
this
23:58
is
23:59
not
23:59
about
23:59
me,
24:01
has
24:01
to
24:01
be.
24:02
That's
24:02
it.
24:03
What
24:03
we
24:03
follow,
24:04
that's
24:04
It.
24:04
And
24:05
it's
24:05
very
24:05
quiet.
24:06
There's
24:06
no,
24:07
like,
24:07
one
24:07
of
24:07
the
24:07
interesting
24:08
things,
24:08
and
24:09
this
24:09
is
24:09
something
24:09
I've
24:10
been,
24:10
you
24:10
know,
24:10
in
24:10
my
24:10
first
24:11
book
24:11
in
24:11
Touch,
24:11
I
24:12
was
24:12
looking
24:12
at
24:12
is,
24:12
you
24:13
know,
24:13
getting
24:13
in
24:13
touch
24:13
with
24:14
a
24:14
sense
24:14
of
24:14
inner
24:14
guidance.
24:15
And
24:16
guidance
24:16
is
24:17
very
24:17
quiet.
24:18
It's
24:18
non
24:19
assertive,
24:20
it's
24:20
non
24:20
insistent,
24:21
it's
24:21
non
24:22
judgmental.
24:23
It's
24:23
not,
24:24
you
24:24
need
24:24
to
24:24
do
24:25
God's
24:26
work
24:26
in
24:26
this
24:27
way,
24:27
you
24:27
know,
24:28
or
24:28
I'm
24:28
on
24:28
a
24:28
mission.
24:29
It
24:29
doesn't
24:29
have
24:29
that
24:30
kind
24:30
of
24:30
missionary
24:31
zeal
24:31
or
24:32
a
24:32
sense
24:32
of
24:32
inflation
24:33
at
24:33
all.
24:34
And
24:34
it's
24:34
really
24:35
very
24:36
quiet.
24:36
And
24:37
it
24:37
requires
24:38
a
24:38
quietude,
24:39
a
24:39
silence
24:40
willingness
24:40
to
24:41
let
24:42
go
24:42
of
24:43
who
24:43
we
24:43
think
24:43
we
24:44
are
24:44
and
24:44
what
24:44
this
24:44
world
24:44
is.
24:45
And
24:45
then
24:45
it's
24:46
interesting,
24:47
the
24:47
willfulness
24:48
kind
24:48
of
24:48
gradually
24:49
transforms
24:50
into
24:50
a
24:50
willingness
24:51
that
24:52
this.
24:53
That's
24:53
nice.
24:53
Yeah,
24:54
thank
24:54
you.
24:55
A
24:55
very
24:55
beautiful.
24:55
This
24:56
hymn,
24:56
John,
24:56
that
24:57
you
24:57
recited
24:58
points
24:58
to.
24:59
It's
24:59
like,
24:59
I
25:00
think
25:00
we
25:00
see
25:00
this.
25:01
It's,
25:01
you
25:01
know,
25:02
there's
25:02
a
25:02
sense
25:02
of
25:02
surrender.
25:03
Thy
25:03
will
25:03
be
25:04
done.
25:05
And
25:05
Meister
25:06
Eckhart
25:06
pointed
25:06
to
25:07
this
25:07
as
25:07
well.
25:08
We
25:08
have
25:08
one
25:08
prayer,
25:09
Let
25:09
it
25:09
be.
25:10
Thy
25:10
will
25:10
be
25:10
done.
25:13
John.
25:13
Your
25:13
description
25:14
of
25:14
this
25:15
quiet
25:15
guidance
25:16
reminded
25:17
me
25:17
of
25:17
the
25:17
Quaker
25:19
statement
25:19
about
25:20
the
25:20
still,
25:20
small
25:21
voice
25:21
within
25:21
does
25:22
that.
25:22
Very
25:23
much
25:23
so.
25:24
So,
25:25
so
25:25
part
25:25
of
25:25
this
25:25
presence,
25:26
part
25:27
of
25:27
this
25:27
grounding
25:27
also
25:28
includes
25:29
a
25:29
sense
25:29
of
25:31
a
25:31
personal
25:31
guidance
25:32
and
25:32
direction.
25:33
How
25:33
we
25:34
as
25:34
an
25:34
individual,
25:35
something
25:36
that's
25:37
connected
25:37
to
25:38
everything,
25:39
moves
25:39
through
25:40
this
25:40
time
25:40
that
25:41
we
25:41
are
25:41
given.
25:42
And
25:42
I
25:43
think
25:43
great
25:43
comfort
25:44
in
25:44
that,
25:44
you
25:44
know,
25:44
but
25:44
sometimes
25:45
I
25:45
really
25:45
struggle
25:46
and
25:46
I've
25:46
had
25:46
periods
25:47
of
25:47
time
25:47
when
25:47
I've.
25:48
It's
25:48
been
25:48
very
25:49
clear,
25:50
yeah,
25:50
we
25:50
could
25:51
speak
25:51
of
25:51
it
25:51
as
25:51
personal
25:52
guidance
25:52
or
25:53
maybe
25:54
I
25:54
prefer
25:55
the
25:55
word
25:55
individual
25:56
guidance
25:56
just
25:57
because
25:57
it
25:57
doesn't
25:57
have
25:58
a
25:58
personal
25:58
feeling
25:59
so
25:59
much
25:59
to
25:59
it.
26:00
It
26:00
can
26:01
initially.
26:01
And
26:01
then
26:02
you
26:02
realize,
26:02
oh,
26:03
it's
26:03
not.
26:03
It's
26:04
not
26:04
really
26:04
personal.
26:04
There's
26:05
something
26:06
greater
26:07
moving
26:07
through
26:07
that
26:08
I'm
26:08
listening
26:09
to.
26:10
And
26:11
as
26:11
to
26:11
the
26:12
small
26:12
still
26:12
voice,
26:13
that's
26:14
one
26:14
channel
26:14
that
26:15
it
26:15
can
26:15
come
26:15
through
26:16
in
26:16
terms
26:16
of
26:17
the
26:17
audio
26:17
channel,
26:18
but
26:18
also.
26:19
And
26:20
occasionally
26:20
it
26:20
comes
26:21
that
26:21
way
26:21
through
26:21
me,
26:22
but
26:23
fairly
26:23
rarely,
26:23
much
26:24
more.
26:24
It's
26:24
kinesthetic
26:25
or
26:25
proprioceptive
26:26
as
26:27
a
26:27
felt
26:27
sense,
26:28
as
26:28
a
26:28
subtle
26:29
kind
26:29
of
26:29
inclination
26:30
or
26:31
movement
26:33
for
26:33
the
26:33
next
26:33
obvious
26:34
step.
26:35
And
26:36
what
26:36
I
26:36
found
26:37
is
26:37
I
26:37
don't
26:37
need
26:38
to
26:38
know
26:38
more
26:38
than
26:39
that.
26:39
You
26:40
know,
26:40
I
26:40
don't
26:40
need
26:40
to
26:41
know
26:41
the
26:41
final
26:42
destination
26:42
because
26:42
I
26:43
can't.
26:44
I
26:44
don't
26:45
know.
26:45
I
26:45
can't
26:45
know.
26:45
I
26:46
don't
26:46
need
26:46
to
26:46
know.
26:47
It's
26:47
really
26:47
like,
26:48
what
26:48
is
26:48
the
26:48
next
26:49
step?
26:50
And
26:50
in
26:50
that
26:50
quietude
26:51
of
26:51
that
26:51
listening,
26:52
very
26:53
often
26:53
there's
26:53
a
26:54
kind
26:54
of
26:54
inclination
26:55
in
26:55
a
26:55
particular
26:55
direction.
26:56
And
26:56
so
26:57
that,
26:57
for
26:57
me
26:58
is
26:58
a
26:58
form
26:58
that
26:59
it
26:59
takes
26:59
in
26:59
terms
26:59
of
27:00
guidance.
27:01
And,
27:02
John,
27:02
the
27:03
thrust
27:03
of
27:03
your
27:04
book,
27:04
your
27:04
deepest
27:05
ground,
27:05
is
27:05
this
27:06
opening
27:07
to.
27:09
Well,
27:10
to
27:10
our
27:10
deepest
27:11
ground.
27:13
Our
27:13
groundless
27:14
ground.
27:14
Our
27:14
groundless
27:15
ground,
27:15
yes.
27:16
Well,
27:16
we'll
27:17
get
27:17
to
27:17
that.
27:18
And
27:19
you
27:19
provide
27:19
some
27:19
beautiful
27:20
inquiries
27:21
for
27:22
that
27:23
process.
27:24
Are
27:24
there
27:25
specific
27:25
practices
27:26
for
27:26
this?
27:27
Is
27:27
this
27:27
more
27:28
an
27:28
opening
27:28
that
27:29
occurs
27:29
as
27:29
a
27:29
function
27:30
of
27:30
inner
27:31
work?
27:31
In
27:31
general.
27:33
It
27:34
can
27:34
be
27:34
both.
27:34
I
27:35
think
27:35
it
27:36
can
27:36
be
27:36
facilitated
27:37
by
27:37
practice,
27:38
by
27:38
attending
27:39
in
27:39
a
27:40
particular
27:40
way.
27:41
And
27:41
it
27:41
also
27:41
unfolds
27:42
spontaneously.
27:43
So
27:43
in
27:43
that
27:44
sense,
27:44
it
27:44
can
27:44
be
27:44
both.
27:45
I
27:45
think
27:45
there
27:46
is
27:46
that
27:46
tendency.
27:47
There
27:47
is
27:48
a
27:48
natural
27:48
tendency
27:49
of
27:49
awareness
27:49
to
27:50
open
27:50
and
27:50
then
27:50
descend.
27:51
Although
27:52
it
27:52
can
27:52
open
27:52
in
27:53
very
27:53
different
27:53
ways
27:53
for
27:54
people.
27:54
Different
27:54
portals
27:55
can
27:55
open
27:56
in
27:57
different
27:57
orders,
27:57
but
27:58
generally
27:58
speaking,
27:59
it
27:59
will
27:59
include
28:00
descending.
28:02
Descending
28:02
aspect.
28:03
What
28:04
was
28:04
your
28:04
question
28:04
again,
28:04
Roger?
28:06
Well,
28:07
I
28:07
was.
28:08
I
28:08
was
28:08
wondering.
28:09
Practice,
28:09
right?
28:09
Yeah,
28:10
practice,
28:11
yeah.
28:11
In
28:11
general,
28:12
I
28:12
tend
28:12
to
28:12
think,
28:12
as
28:13
we
28:13
talk
28:13
about
28:13
cultivating
28:14
particular
28:15
qualities
28:15
or
28:15
aspects
28:16
of
28:16
being,
28:17
that
28:18
there
28:18
are
28:18
often
28:19
any
28:19
inner
28:20
work,
28:20
anything
28:21
which
28:22
thins
28:22
the
28:22
barriers
28:23
and
28:23
blocks
28:24
and
28:24
which
28:25
opens
28:25
us
28:25
in
28:25
various
28:26
ways
28:26
is
28:26
facilitating
28:27
for
28:28
the
28:28
cultivation
28:29
of
28:29
any
28:29
capacity
28:30
or
28:30
virtue.
28:31
But
28:31
then
28:31
sometimes
28:32
there
28:32
are
28:32
very
28:32
specific
28:33
practices.
28:33
For
28:34
example,
28:34
loving
28:34
kindness,
28:35
to
28:35
cultivate
28:36
love.
28:37
I'm
28:37
wondering,
28:38
does
28:38
that
28:38
also
28:38
apply
28:39
for
28:40
opening
28:40
to
28:40
our
28:41
ground?
28:42
It
28:42
can.
28:43
And
28:44
two
28:44
things
28:44
that
28:45
come
28:45
to
28:45
me
28:45
is
28:46
in
28:46
the
28:46
way
28:46
that
28:46
I
28:47
work
28:47
with
28:47
people,
28:48
because
28:48
people
28:49
who
28:49
are
28:49
really
28:50
spiritual
28:51
explorers,
28:52
people
28:52
who
28:52
are
28:52
really
28:53
interested
28:54
in
28:54
discovering
28:54
their
28:55
essential
28:55
nature,
28:56
and
28:57
always
28:57
will
28:57
encounter
28:58
blocks
28:58
and
28:59
obstacles
28:59
and
28:59
fixations.
29:00
And
29:00
the
29:00
question
29:01
is
29:02
to
29:02
recognize
29:03
them
29:03
and
29:03
how
29:03
to
29:03
be
29:04
with
29:04
them.
29:05
And
29:05
if
29:06
you
29:06
try
29:06
to
29:07
work
29:07
with
29:07
them
29:07
from
29:07
the
29:08
level
29:08
of
29:08
the
29:08
mind
29:08
or
29:08
the
29:09
conditioned
29:09
mind,
29:10
often
29:10
progress
29:11
is
29:11
very
29:11
slow
29:12
and
29:13
partial.
29:13
And
29:14
so
29:14
what
29:14
I
29:14
have
29:14
found
29:15
in
29:15
my
29:15
work
29:15
with
29:15
people
29:16
is
29:16
it's
29:17
really
29:17
helpful
29:17
to
29:17
evoke
29:18
presence
29:18
to
29:19
whatever
29:19
degree
29:20
it's
29:20
accessible.
29:22
And
29:22
so
29:23
let's
29:23
say
29:23
I'm
29:23
working
29:24
with
29:24
someone
29:25
and
29:25
they
29:26
start
29:26
getting
29:26
in
29:27
touch
29:27
with
29:27
this
29:27
fear
29:28
of
29:28
losing
29:28
control
29:28
and
29:29
the
29:29
fear
29:29
of
29:29
annihilation.
29:30
Rather
29:31
than
29:31
saying,
29:31
let's
29:32
go
29:32
into
29:32
that,
29:33
I'll
29:33
say,
29:33
just
29:34
notice
29:34
that,
29:34
Notice
29:35
the
29:35
effect,
29:36
and
29:36
let's
29:36
take
29:36
a
29:36
step
29:37
back
29:37
first
29:38
and
29:38
resource
29:39
yourself.
29:41
Take
29:41
a
29:41
few
29:41
deep
29:41
breaths,
29:42
let
29:42
your
29:42
attention
29:43
drop
29:43
down
29:44
and
29:44
in,
29:45
and
29:46
feel
29:46
a
29:46
sense
29:46
of
29:46
spacious
29:47
awareness
29:48
behind
29:48
you,
29:49
an
29:49
open,
29:50
boundless
29:50
sense
29:51
of
29:51
awake
29:51
awareness,
29:53
and
29:53
just
29:54
relax
29:54
back.
29:55
We're
29:56
not
29:56
trying
29:56
to
29:56
grasp
29:57
it,
29:57
we're
29:57
not
29:57
trying
29:57
to
29:58
create
29:58
it.
29:58
It's
29:59
already
29:59
here.
29:59
It's
30:00
just
30:00
a
30:00
matter
30:00
of
30:00
attuning
30:01
and
30:01
resting
30:02
back
30:02
and
30:02
just
30:03
take
30:03
a
30:03
minute
30:04
and
30:04
rest
30:05
back
30:05
in.
30:06
And
30:06
as
30:07
this
30:07
open
30:07
awareness.
30:09
And
30:09
so
30:09
we'll
30:10
sit
30:10
just
30:11
quietly
30:11
for
30:11
a
30:11
minute
30:12
or
30:12
two
30:13
and
30:13
then
30:14
someone
30:14
will
30:14
say,
30:15
okay,
30:15
I
30:15
have
30:16
a
30:16
sense
30:16
of
30:16
that,
30:17
some
30:17
sense.
30:18
Then
30:19
from
30:19
this
30:20
more
30:20
open
30:20
awareness,
30:22
we
30:22
invite
30:23
the
30:23
contraction,
30:26
invite
30:26
the
30:26
constriction,
30:27
we
30:27
invite
30:28
the
30:28
fear.
30:29
Whatever
30:29
our
30:30
experience
30:30
is,
30:31
we
30:31
invite
30:32
that
30:32
in
30:33
to
30:33
this
30:33
welcoming,
30:34
open
30:35
awareness
30:35
without
30:36
an
30:36
agenda
30:37
to
30:37
fix
30:37
or
30:37
change.
30:39
Not
30:40
to
30:40
make
30:40
it
30:40
different,
30:41
but
30:41
actually
30:41
to
30:41
be
30:42
intimate
30:42
with
30:43
it.
30:44
This
30:44
is
30:44
a
30:44
fundamental
30:45
practice
30:45
that
30:45
I
30:45
share
30:46
with
30:46
people
30:47
and
30:47
just
30:48
notice
30:48
what
30:49
happens
30:49
as
30:50
you
30:50
welcome
30:51
this
30:52
conditioned
30:53
response
30:53
of
30:53
fear
30:54
and
30:55
whatever
30:55
beliefs
30:55
that
30:56
may
30:56
go
30:56
with
30:56
it
30:57
into
30:57
awareness.
30:58
And
30:58
very
30:58
often
30:59
just
31:00
in
31:00
that
31:00
process
31:00
of
31:01
welcoming,
31:02
there's
31:02
a
31:02
natural
31:03
unfolding
31:04
that
31:04
begins
31:04
to
31:04
happen.
31:06
Because
31:06
I
31:06
think
31:07
these
31:07
areas
31:07
of
31:08
constriction
31:08
are
31:09
also
31:09
portals
31:10
to
31:10
our
31:10
true
31:10
nature.
31:12
And
31:12
given
31:12
the
31:12
chance,
31:13
they
31:13
will
31:13
open
31:13
and
31:14
reveal
31:14
essential
31:15
qualities
31:15
of
31:16
being
31:16
and
31:16
true
31:17
nature.
31:17
It's
31:18
a
31:18
fascinating
31:19
process
31:19
to
31:20
support
31:20
and
31:21
bear
31:21
witness
31:21
to.
31:22
So
31:22
that's
31:22
one
31:23
basic
31:23
practice,
31:24
is
31:24
like
31:25
welcoming
31:25
our
31:26
experience.
31:26
And
31:26
in
31:27
this
31:27
case,
31:27
fear
31:28
of
31:28
annihilation
31:29
or
31:29
fear
31:30
of
31:30
losing
31:30
control.
31:32
And
31:32
I
31:32
just
31:32
want
31:32
to
31:32
emphasize
31:33
some
31:33
of
31:34
the
31:34
points
31:34
you
31:34
made
31:34
there,
31:35
John,
31:35
because
31:36
they're
31:36
really
31:36
striking
31:37
and
31:37
they're
31:37
counter
31:38
to
31:39
common
31:39
ways
31:40
of
31:40
doing
31:40
psychotherapy,
31:41
working
31:41
with
31:42
people.
31:42
First
31:42
off,
31:43
you
31:44
don't
31:44
go
31:44
straight
31:45
into
31:45
the
31:46
issue
31:46
or
31:47
the
31:47
block
31:47
or
31:47
the
31:47
barrier.
31:48
You
31:48
just
31:49
take
31:49
time
31:49
to
31:49
settle
31:50
into
31:51
presence,
31:52
awareness,
31:52
to
31:53
resource
31:53
the
31:53
person
31:53
you
31:54
say.
31:55
Second,
31:56
you
31:57
invite
31:58
or
31:59
welcome
32:00
the
32:01
block
32:01
or
32:02
barrier
32:02
in
32:04
and
32:04
without
32:05
an
32:05
agenda.
32:07
And
32:07
what
32:07
you're
32:08
making
32:08
me
32:08
realize
32:08
is
32:09
first
32:09
number
32:10
of
32:10
times
32:11
I've
32:11
worked
32:12
with
32:12
people
32:12
and
32:12
failed
32:12
to
32:13
do
32:13
that,
32:14
that
32:14
it's
32:14
been
32:14
more.
32:15
Okay,
32:15
let's
32:15
go
32:16
in.
32:16
What
32:16
exactly
32:17
is
32:17
this?
32:17
To
32:18
explore,
32:18
investigate.
32:19
And
32:19
of
32:19
course,
32:19
that
32:19
has
32:20
its
32:20
value.
32:21
It
32:21
does.
32:22
But
32:22
there's
32:23
added
32:23
value
32:24
from
32:25
the
32:26
taking
32:27
time
32:27
to
32:27
settle
32:28
and
32:28
rest
32:29
in
32:29
presence
32:30
and
32:30
then
32:30
to
32:31
welcome.
32:31
Because
32:32
what
32:32
I
32:32
noticed
32:32
as
32:33
you
32:33
said,
32:33
that
32:33
it
32:33
just
32:34
feels
32:34
like
32:34
it
32:34
removes
32:35
the
32:35
even
32:36
very
32:36
subtle
32:37
tendency
32:37
to.
32:38
This
32:38
is
32:38
wrong.
32:39
We
32:39
got
32:39
to
32:39
get
32:39
rid
32:40
of
32:40
it.
32:40
Exactly.
32:41
Which
32:42
always
32:42
engenders
32:42
resistance.
32:43
Yes.
32:45
Also,
32:46
John,
32:46
and
32:46
money
32:47
taken
32:47
directly
32:48
from
32:48
your
32:48
book.
32:48
You
32:49
say
32:49
maybe
32:50
there's
32:50
a
32:50
paraphrase.
32:51
But
32:52
ultimately
32:52
we
32:52
find
32:53
when
32:54
we
32:54
do
32:54
this
32:54
work,
32:54
when
32:55
we
32:55
open
32:55
to
32:55
that,
32:55
we
32:56
go
32:56
to
32:56
the
32:56
constrictions,
32:57
we
32:57
go
32:57
into
32:57
the
32:57
darkness.
32:58
We
32:59
accept
32:59
the
33:00
possibility
33:00
of
33:01
annihilation.
33:02
See
33:02
that
33:02
we
33:02
find
33:02
that
33:03
the
33:03
fear
33:03
is
33:03
unfounded,
33:04
that
33:05
we
33:05
are
33:05
the
33:05
love
33:06
we
33:06
seek.
33:06
Yeah,
33:07
that's
33:08
a
33:09
heaven
33:10
of
33:10
a
33:10
statement.
33:10
That's
33:11
a
33:11
very,
33:11
very
33:11
powerful
33:12
idea.
33:14
It's
33:15
based
33:15
on
33:15
direct
33:16
experience
33:16
that
33:17
as
33:17
we
33:17
welcome
33:18
that
33:18
which
33:19
we
33:19
have
33:19
avoided
33:20
and
33:20
pushed
33:21
away
33:21
as
33:21
an
33:22
inhibition
33:22
or
33:22
as
33:23
a
33:23
block,
33:24
we
33:24
actually
33:24
discover
33:25
what
33:25
it's
33:25
made
33:26
up
33:26
out
33:26
of
33:27
is
33:27
the
33:27
same
33:28
thing.
33:29
It's
33:30
really
33:30
innocent
33:31
confusion.
33:31
It's
33:32
contraction
33:33
and
33:33
what's
33:33
in
33:33
the
33:33
very
33:34
center
33:34
of
33:34
a
33:35
contraction,
33:37
Openness,
33:38
space
33:39
and
33:40
luminosity.
33:42
So
33:42
it
33:43
is
33:43
a
33:43
different
33:43
approach
33:44
and
33:44
it's
33:44
one
33:44
I
33:44
actually
33:45
had
33:45
to
33:46
correct
33:47
within
33:47
myself
33:48
in
33:48
terms
33:48
of
33:49
my
33:49
training
33:49
as
33:49
a
33:49
therapist.
33:50
Okay,
33:50
let's
33:51
find
33:51
out
33:51
what
33:51
the
33:51
problem
33:51
is
33:51
and
33:52
go
33:52
into
33:52
it
33:53
to
33:53
actually,
33:54
let's
33:55
identify
33:56
what
33:56
that
33:56
is
33:56
and
33:57
then
33:57
step
33:57
back,
33:58
open
33:58
up
33:58
and
33:59
welcome
33:59
into
34:00
that.
34:01
And
34:01
it
34:01
makes
34:01
a
34:01
huge
34:02
difference
34:03
because
34:03
as
34:03
you're
34:04
suggesting,
34:04
Roger,
34:05
we're
34:05
not
34:05
trying
34:06
to
34:06
get
34:06
rid
34:06
of
34:06
it.
34:09
That
34:09
creates
34:09
a
34:09
very
34:09
different
34:10
atmosphere.
34:11
It's
34:11
really
34:11
pure
34:12
exploration
34:13
and
34:13
just
34:14
a
34:14
desire
34:14
to
34:14
get
34:14
to
34:15
know
34:15
it
34:15
better.
34:16
An
34:16
ordinary
34:17
mind
34:17
can't
34:17
do
34:17
that.
34:19
That's
34:19
so
34:19
important.
34:20
And
34:20
I
34:21
think
34:21
in
34:21
my
34:22
experience
34:22
anyway,
34:23
so
34:23
underemphasized
34:24
in
34:24
conventional
34:25
psychotherapy.
34:26
And
34:26
I
34:27
know
34:27
have
34:28
a
34:28
little
34:28
sadness
34:29
in
34:29
myself,
34:29
you
34:30
know,
34:30
I
34:30
spent
34:30
a
34:30
lot
34:30
of
34:30
years
34:31
teaching
34:31
psychotherapy
34:32
and
34:32
I
34:32
may
34:32
feel
34:32
maybe
34:33
I
34:33
didn't
34:33
emphasize
34:34
that
34:34
enough
34:34
and
34:35
probably
34:35
wasn't
34:35
aware
34:36
of
34:36
it
34:36
enough,
34:36
so.
34:37
Well,
34:37
that's
34:37
why.
34:37
Yeah,
34:38
yeah,
34:39
but.
34:40
And
34:40
I'm
34:40
also
34:41
struck
34:42
by
34:43
the
34:44
correspondence,
34:46
an
34:46
alignment
34:46
between
34:47
what
34:47
you're
34:47
saying
34:48
and
34:48
the
34:49
central
34:50
practice
34:50
of
34:51
the
34:51
diamond
34:51
approach
34:52
that
34:52
Amid
34:53
Ali
34:53
offers
34:54
of
34:55
inquiry.
34:56
And
34:56
we
34:56
have
34:57
the
34:57
privilege
34:57
of
34:57
doing
34:58
a
34:58
year
34:58
long
34:58
series
34:59
with
34:59
Amid,
35:00
otherwise
35:00
known
35:00
as
35:00
H
35:01
Almerson.
35:02
It's
35:02
been
35:03
really
35:03
striking
35:04
in
35:05
his
35:05
approach
35:06
how
35:08
much
35:08
he
35:08
emphasizes
35:09
opening
35:10
to
35:10
whatever
35:11
arises
35:12
out
35:12
of
35:13
a
35:13
curiosity,
35:14
welcoming,
35:15
just
35:15
as
35:15
you
35:15
do,
35:16
and
35:17
no
35:17
attachment
35:18
or
35:18
intention
35:19
to
35:19
change
35:20
things,
35:20
but
35:21
rather
35:21
to.
35:21
Trust
35:21
the
35:22
unfolding
35:23
Same
35:23
principle,
35:24
isn't
35:24
it?
35:24
And
35:25
I
35:25
came
35:25
to
35:25
this
35:26
approach
35:26
from
35:26
a
35:27
different
35:27
angle
35:28
than
35:28
Hamid.
35:29
It's
35:29
not
35:29
because
35:29
I
35:30
had
35:30
studied
35:31
Hamid.
35:31
I
35:31
appreciate
35:32
Hamid's
35:32
work
35:32
very
35:33
much
35:33
and
35:34
have
35:34
followed
35:34
it
35:35
for
35:35
years.
35:35
But
35:35
it
35:36
was
35:36
actually
35:36
through
35:36
my
35:36
work
35:37
with
35:37
Jean
35:37
Klein
35:38
and
35:38
his
35:39
approach
35:39
of
35:39
welcoming
35:40
experience
35:41
that
35:42
my
35:42
time
35:43
with
35:43
him
35:43
that
35:44
really
35:44
facilitated
35:45
this
35:45
approach.
35:47
So,
35:48
yeah,
35:48
it's
35:49
really
35:49
remarkable
35:50
to
35:51
approach
35:51
our
35:51
experience
35:52
with
35:52
this
35:52
kind
35:53
of
35:53
innocence
35:53
and
35:54
curiosity
35:54
and
35:55
affectionate
35:56
attention.
35:56
Because
35:57
that's
35:57
exactly
35:57
what
35:57
it's
35:58
wanting.
35:58
Right?
36:00
That's
36:00
exactly
36:01
what
36:01
it's
36:01
wanting.
36:01
Because
36:02
we
36:02
much
36:03
prefer,
36:03
if
36:04
we're
36:04
in
36:04
a
36:04
conversation
36:05
with
36:05
someone,
36:06
we
36:06
much
36:07
prefer
36:07
that
36:07
quality
36:07
of
36:08
just
36:08
being
36:08
received
36:08
and
36:09
listened
36:09
to
36:09
without
36:10
an
36:10
agenda
36:11
to
36:11
change
36:11
us.
36:12
And
36:12
same
36:13
thing
36:13
applies
36:13
to
36:14
our
36:14
inner
36:14
experience.
36:15
So
36:15
there's
36:16
another.
36:16
I
36:16
just
36:16
want
36:16
to
36:17
mark
36:17
here,
36:17
there
36:18
is
36:18
another
36:19
practice
36:20
of
36:20
meditative
36:20
inquiry
36:21
which
36:22
does
36:22
relate
36:23
to
36:23
what
36:23
we're
36:24
talking
36:24
about
36:24
here,
36:24
like
36:25
there's
36:25
a
36:25
welcoming
36:26
experience
36:26
as
36:26
it
36:27
is
36:27
a
36:27
sensing,
36:28
a
36:28
breathing
36:29
and
36:29
innocent
36:30
curiosity.
36:32
And
36:32
I
36:32
also.
36:32
There's
36:33
a
36:33
specific
36:33
form
36:34
of
36:35
meditative
36:35
inquiry
36:36
that
36:36
has
36:37
emerged
36:37
in
36:38
my
36:38
work
36:38
with
36:38
people
36:38
that
36:39
specifically
36:40
is
36:40
focused
36:40
towards
36:40
beliefs.
36:42
Because
36:42
I
36:42
have
36:42
found
36:43
that
36:43
with
36:44
these
36:44
contractions
36:45
and
36:45
fixations
36:46
of
36:46
attention,
36:46
very
36:47
often,
36:47
not
36:48
always,
36:48
it
36:48
depends
36:49
developmentally,
36:50
when
36:50
they
36:50
were
36:51
created,
36:52
there
36:52
is
36:52
a
36:52
core
36:52
limiting
36:53
belief.
36:55
It
36:56
could
36:56
be
36:56
psychological,
36:57
it
36:57
could
36:57
be
36:57
existential.
36:59
Like
36:59
as
36:59
the
37:00
psychological
37:01
can
37:01
be.
37:01
Often
37:02
something's
37:02
really
37:02
wrong
37:03
with
37:03
me.
37:03
I'm
37:04
flawed,
37:04
I'm
37:05
not
37:05
enough,
37:06
something's
37:07
lacking,
37:07
I'm
37:07
screwed
37:08
up,
37:09
I'm
37:10
deficient
37:11
in
37:11
some
37:11
way
37:12
or
37:13
more
37:13
existentially,
37:14
I'm
37:14
separate,
37:15
I'm
37:15
alienated,
37:16
the
37:17
universe
37:17
is
37:17
hostile.
37:19
And
37:19
these
37:20
are
37:20
very
37:20
deep,
37:21
very
37:21
profound
37:22
effects
37:23
in
37:23
terms
37:23
of
37:23
our
37:24
sense
37:24
of
37:24
self.
37:25
And
37:25
so
37:26
being
37:26
able
37:27
to
37:27
recognize
37:27
those
37:28
first.
37:29
And
37:29
they
37:29
can
37:29
be
37:30
usually
37:31
identified
37:31
in
37:32
very
37:32
simple
37:32
words
37:33
because
37:33
they're
37:33
often
37:34
formed
37:34
in
37:34
childhood.
37:35
Noticing
37:36
what
37:36
the
37:36
somatic
37:37
contraction
37:38
is
37:38
and
37:38
the
37:38
emotional,
37:39
you
37:39
know,
37:40
the
37:40
affective
37:40
reaction
37:41
is
37:41
important.
37:42
And
37:43
then
37:43
I
37:43
find
37:43
again,
37:44
kind
37:44
of
37:44
step
37:45
back,
37:45
let
37:45
that
37:45
go,
37:46
and
37:47
just
37:47
evoke
37:48
the
37:48
question,
37:49
what's
37:49
my
37:50
deepest
37:50
knowing
37:51
about
37:51
this
37:52
now?
37:53
Or
37:53
alternatively,
37:54
what's
37:54
true?
37:56
And
37:56
let
37:56
it
37:56
go.
37:57
It's
37:57
very
37:57
interesting
37:58
what
37:58
happens
38:00
because
38:00
this
38:01
kind
38:01
of.
38:01
There's
38:01
this
38:02
infusion
38:02
of
38:03
the
38:03
light
38:03
of
38:03
awareness
38:05
into
38:05
these
38:05
areas
38:06
of
38:06
contraction.
38:08
It
38:08
feels
38:08
like
38:08
there's
38:09
like
38:09
new
38:09
information,
38:11
new
38:11
energy
38:12
entering
38:12
into
38:13
a
38:13
closed
38:13
system
38:14
and
38:14
a
38:14
very
38:15
interesting
38:15
transformative
38:16
process.
38:17
So
38:17
I
38:17
find,
38:18
I
38:18
think,
38:18
like
38:18
Hamid,
38:19
I
38:19
have
38:20
found
38:20
meditative
38:21
inquiry,
38:21
even
38:21
more
38:22
than
38:22
sitting
38:22
practice,
38:23
to
38:23
be
38:24
the
38:24
most
38:24
powerful
38:24
transformative
38:25
practice
38:26
in
38:26
my
38:27
work.
38:27
And
38:28
Hamid
38:28
says,
38:29
going
38:29
along
38:29
with
38:29
what
38:30
you're
38:30
saying,
38:30
one
38:30
of
38:30
the
38:30
essential
38:31
parts
38:31
of
38:31
that
38:31
is
38:32
a
38:33
deep
38:33
and
38:33
profound
38:34
love
38:34
of
38:34
the
38:35
truth.
38:35
Absolutely.
38:37
This
38:37
is
38:37
the
38:38
core
38:38
of
38:38
it.
38:39
It's
38:39
like
38:40
it's
38:40
not
38:40
so
38:41
much
38:41
the
38:41
practice
38:41
itself,
38:42
but
38:42
where
38:42
the
38:43
practice
38:43
comes
38:43
from.
38:45
And
38:45
if
38:45
we're
38:46
engaged
38:46
in
38:46
self
38:47
inquiry,
38:48
it's
38:48
like
38:48
the
38:48
first
38:49
question
38:49
to
38:49
ask
38:49
is,
38:50
do
38:50
I
38:50
really
38:50
want
38:51
to
38:51
know
38:52
what's
38:52
true?
38:53
And
38:53
to
38:53
be
38:54
honest
38:54
about
38:54
that,
38:55
not
38:55
as
38:55
a
38:55
judgment,
38:56
but
38:56
just
38:57
kind
38:57
of
38:57
notice
38:57
what
38:57
comes
38:58
up.
38:58
Do
38:58
I
38:59
really
38:59
want
38:59
to
38:59
know?
38:59
And
38:59
usually
39:00
there'll
39:00
be
39:00
an
39:00
ambivalent
39:01
response.
39:02
There'll
39:02
be
39:02
a
39:02
yes
39:03
and
39:03
a
39:03
no.
39:04
And
39:04
that
39:04
no
39:05
is
39:05
very
39:05
interesting,
39:06
right?
39:07
No
39:07
is
39:07
very,
39:08
very
39:08
interesting.
39:08
To
39:08
be
39:09
honest
39:09
about
39:09
and
39:10
to
39:10
welcome
39:10
that,
39:11
that
39:11
can
39:11
be
39:12
a
39:12
starting
39:12
point.
39:12
No,
39:13
I
39:13
don't
39:14
want
39:14
to
39:14
know.
39:15
Oh,
39:15
okay.
39:16
Welcome
39:17
in.
39:17
What's
39:17
that
39:17
about?
39:19
John,
39:19
you're
39:20
pointing
39:20
to
39:20
something
39:20
which
39:21
I
39:21
hadn't
39:22
heard
39:22
articulated
39:23
before,
39:24
at
39:24
least
39:24
that
39:24
I
39:24
can
39:24
recall.
39:25
Which
39:25
is
39:25
that
39:26
the
39:26
implication
39:27
that
39:28
at
39:28
deep
39:29
levels
39:29
of
39:29
work
39:30
limiting
39:31
beliefs.
39:33
And
39:33
I
39:33
also
39:34
want
39:34
to
39:34
just
39:34
take
39:34
a
39:34
moment
39:35
to
39:35
acknowledge
39:36
and
39:36
emphasize
39:37
what
39:37
you're
39:37
saying
39:38
about
39:38
the
39:38
importance
39:39
of
39:39
recognizing
39:40
limiting
39:41
beliefs
39:41
that
39:42
and
39:42
that
39:43
they
39:43
do
39:44
tend
39:44
to
39:45
underlie,
39:45
it
39:46
seems
39:47
so
39:47
many
39:47
of
39:47
our
39:48
blocks
39:49
and
39:49
barriers
39:49
and
39:50
limitations
39:51
and
39:51
act
39:51
as
39:52
self
39:52
fulfilling
39:52
prophecies.
39:53
But
39:54
you're
39:54
suggesting
39:55
that
39:57
it's
39:58
important
39:59
to
39:59
do
39:59
what
39:59
we
39:59
call.
40:00
Let's
40:00
see,
40:01
I'm
40:01
trying
40:01
to
40:02
come
40:02
up
40:02
with
40:02
a
40:02
term
40:03
transpersonal
40:04
cognitive
40:04
therapy
40:05
to
40:05
work
40:06
on
40:06
existent.
40:07
Not
40:07
just
40:08
personal
40:08
limiting
40:09
beliefs,
40:09
but
40:10
existential
40:10
limiting
40:11
beliefs.
40:11
It's
40:11
almost
40:12
like
40:13
one.
40:13
There's
40:14
great
40:14
value
40:15
in
40:16
correcting
40:17
one's
40:18
metaphysical
40:19
assumptions
40:20
about
40:20
oneself
40:21
in
40:21
life.
40:22
Can
40:22
you
40:22
give
40:22
us
40:22
an
40:23
example
40:23
of
40:23
an
40:24
existential
40:24
limiting
40:25
belief
40:25
that
40:25
you're
40:25
talking
40:25
about?
40:26
I
40:26
am
40:26
a
40:26
separate
40:27
self.
40:28
Wow.
40:31
Yeah.
40:31
I
40:32
am
40:32
disconnected
40:33
from
40:33
the
40:33
whole
40:33
of
40:34
life.
40:37
This
40:37
goes
40:38
very,
40:38
very
40:39
deep
40:39
and
40:39
it's
40:40
developmentally
40:41
inevitable.
40:42
It's
40:42
just
40:42
part
40:43
of
40:43
the
40:43
human
40:43
experience
40:44
to
40:44
take
40:45
oneself
40:45
as
40:45
separate
40:47
to
40:47
a
40:47
certain
40:48
point
40:49
and
40:49
then
40:49
we
40:49
begin
40:50
to
40:50
question
40:50
it.
40:52
And
40:52
when
40:52
we
40:52
start
40:53
questioning
40:53
that
40:54
one,
40:56
things
40:57
really
40:57
open
40:58
up.
41:01
The
41:01
only
41:02
other
41:02
place
41:02
I
41:03
can
41:03
think
41:03
of
41:03
this
41:04
where
41:05
this
41:05
has
41:05
been
41:05
spoken
41:06
of
41:07
explicitly
41:08
and
41:08
of
41:09
course
41:09
I'm
41:09
sure
41:09
there
41:09
are
41:10
other
41:10
examples
41:11
and
41:11
people
41:11
and
41:12
teachers,
41:12
but
41:13
is
41:13
in
41:13
the
41:13
work
41:13
of
41:14
Stanislav
41:14
Grof,
41:15
who
41:15
was
41:15
the
41:16
great
41:16
psychedelic
41:17
pioneer
41:17
and
41:17
transpersonal
41:18
psychology
41:19
founder
41:19
and
41:20
so
41:20
forth.
41:20
And
41:20
he
41:20
said,
41:20
you
41:21
know,
41:21
his
41:22
work
41:22
with.
41:23
And
41:23
he's
41:23
probably,
41:24
interestingly,
41:24
he's
41:25
probably
41:25
seen
41:25
a
41:25
wider
41:26
array
41:26
of
41:26
profound
41:27
human
41:27
experiences
41:28
than
41:28
anyone
41:28
else
41:29
in
41:29
history.
41:29
You
41:30
know,
41:30
he
41:30
guide
41:30
personally
41:31
guided
41:31
over
41:31
a
41:32
thousand
41:32
LSD
41:33
sessions
41:33
plus
41:34
thousands
41:34
of
41:34
holotropic
41:35
breathwork
41:36
sessions.
41:37
And
41:37
he
41:37
said,
41:37
you
41:37
know,
41:38
for
41:38
the
41:38
deepest
41:38
levels
41:39
of
41:39
work,
41:40
it's
41:40
really
41:41
important
41:41
to.
41:42
Where
41:43
he
41:43
stayed,
41:43
I
41:43
think
41:44
was
41:44
to
41:44
have
41:44
a
41:45
skillful
41:45
metaphysical
41:47
framework
41:48
which
41:48
I
41:48
would
41:49
understand
41:49
as
41:50
saying,
41:51
a
41:51
framework
41:52
that
41:52
is
41:52
released.
41:53
The
41:53
kind
41:54
of
41:54
limiting
41:55
existential
41:55
beliefs
41:56
to
41:56
which
41:56
you're
41:56
pointing.
41:57
Exactly.
41:58
The
41:58
more
41:58
comfortable
41:59
we
41:59
are
41:59
with
42:00
not
42:00
knowing,
42:02
not
42:02
in
42:02
terms
42:03
of
42:03
being
42:03
ignorant,
42:04
of
42:04
course,
42:05
but
42:06
not
42:06
in
42:06
any
42:06
way
42:06
devaluing
42:07
rational
42:08
thought,
42:09
but
42:09
just
42:09
seeing
42:09
the
42:09
limitation
42:10
of
42:10
thought.
42:12
Seeing
42:13
that
42:13
thought
42:14
beautiful,
42:15
powerful
42:16
tool,
42:16
cannot
42:17
grasp
42:18
its
42:18
source.
42:19
The
42:20
more
42:20
that
42:20
we
42:20
recognize
42:21
that
42:22
there's
42:22
a
42:22
kind
42:22
of
42:23
a
42:23
space
42:23
around
42:24
ordinary
42:25
mind
42:25
that
42:26
emerges
42:27
of
42:27
just
42:28
openness
42:29
of
42:29
curiosity,
42:30
of
42:31
not
42:31
knowing
42:31
and
42:32
not
42:32
needing
42:32
to
42:33
grasp
42:33
some
42:34
kind
42:34
of
42:34
final
42:35
conclusion
42:36
about
42:36
what
42:37
reality
42:37
is.
42:38
And
42:39
that
42:39
quality
42:40
of
42:40
openness
42:40
is
42:41
so
42:41
precious
42:42
and
42:43
so
42:43
inherently
42:44
transformative.
42:46
Yes.
42:47
And
42:48
it
42:48
seems
42:48
that
42:49
there's
42:49
even
42:50
a
42:50
place
42:51
there
42:52
for
42:53
recognizing
42:54
limiting
42:54
beliefs
42:54
such
42:55
as
42:55
it's
42:55
not
42:55
okay
42:56
not
42:56
to
42:56
know.
42:57
Exactly.
42:58
That's
42:59
Right.
43:00
That's
43:00
right.
43:00
And
43:01
in
43:01
that
43:01
openness,
43:03
a
43:03
different
43:03
kind
43:04
of
43:04
knowing
43:05
starts
43:05
moving.
43:06
Right.
43:07
Transrational
43:08
knowing
43:10
or
43:10
true
43:10
gnosis
43:11
emerges.
43:13
And
43:14
how
43:14
would
43:14
you.
43:15
What's
43:15
the
43:16
experience
43:17
of
43:17
that
43:17
kind
43:17
of
43:18
knowing,
43:18
John?
43:21
For
43:21
me,
43:22
because
43:22
I'm
43:23
wired
43:24
more
43:24
kinesthetically,
43:25
it
43:25
comes
43:26
as
43:26
a
43:26
felt
43:26
sense,
43:27
almost
43:28
vibratory,
43:29
of
43:29
openness,
43:30
aliveness,
43:32
of
43:32
luminosity,
43:34
of
43:34
some
43:35
sense
43:35
of.
43:36
Yeah,
43:36
those
43:37
would
43:37
be
43:37
the
43:37
qualities,
43:37
I
43:38
would
43:38
say.
43:38
Aliveness,
43:39
luminosity,
43:41
sense
43:41
of
43:41
internal
43:42
clarity
43:45
about
43:46
whatever,
43:46
life,
43:47
myself.
43:48
When
43:49
you
43:49
say
43:50
not
43:50
knowing,
43:51
it
43:51
sounds
43:51
like
43:51
you're
43:52
pointing
43:52
to
43:52
a
43:52
couple
43:52
of
43:53
things.
43:53
You're
43:53
pointing
43:54
to
43:54
the
43:55
importance
43:55
of
43:56
recognizing
43:58
bottomless
43:58
mystery.
43:59
And
44:00
you're
44:00
also
44:00
pointing
44:01
to
44:01
the
44:02
importance
44:02
of
44:03
a
44:04
kind
44:04
of
44:04
knowing
44:04
which
44:05
is
44:05
not
44:05
a
44:06
conceptual
44:07
understanding.
44:08
Exactly.
44:09
And
44:09
this
44:09
is.
44:11
I
44:11
didn't
44:12
know
44:12
this
44:13
clearly
44:14
for
44:14
many,
44:15
many
44:15
years.
44:15
I
44:15
couldn't
44:16
have
44:16
made
44:16
that
44:16
differentiation.
44:17
I
44:17
could
44:18
have
44:18
done
44:18
it
44:18
intellectually
44:19
quite
44:19
easily.
44:20
And
44:21
did
44:21
you
44:22
read
44:22
about
44:22
it?
44:22
You
44:22
talk
44:23
about
44:23
it.
44:24
But
44:24
when
44:25
there
44:25
was
44:25
a
44:25
real
44:26
shift
44:27
that
44:27
happened
44:29
and
44:29
there
44:29
was
44:30
this
44:31
recognition
44:31
of
44:31
inherent
44:32
wholeness
44:33
and
44:33
awake
44:34
awareness
44:35
that's
44:35
always
44:36
been
44:36
here
44:37
in
44:37
the
44:37
background,
44:39
and
44:39
when
44:39
it
44:40
suddenly
44:40
came
44:40
into
44:41
the
44:41
foreground,
44:42
the
44:43
distinction
44:43
between
44:44
ordinary
44:45
thought
44:45
and
44:45
this
44:46
knowing
44:46
as
44:47
awake
44:47
awareness
44:48
was
44:49
very,
44:49
very
44:49
clear
44:50
and
44:51
eventually
44:53
became
44:53
the
44:53
ordinary
44:53
experience
44:54
as
44:54
well,
44:55
within
44:55
which
44:55
the
44:55
mind
44:56
is
44:56
operating.
44:57
So
44:57
often
44:58
it's
44:58
spoken
44:58
of
44:58
as
44:59
being
44:59
skylike
45:00
in
45:01
this
45:01
expanse
45:01
and
45:02
its
45:02
clarity.
45:04
John,
45:04
I'd
45:04
love
45:04
to
45:05
move
45:05
into
45:06
another
45:06
topic
45:07
here.
45:07
And
45:07
that
45:07
is
45:08
one
45:08
of
45:08
your
45:08
chapters
45:09
in
45:09
your
45:09
book,
45:10
your
45:10
Deepest
45:10
Ground,
45:11
where
45:12
you
45:12
take
45:13
as
45:13
exemplars
45:14
of
45:15
two
45:15
kinds
45:15
of
45:15
approaches
45:16
to
45:16
the
45:17
psyche
45:17
and
45:18
our
45:18
depths.
45:19
And
45:19
you
45:19
take
45:20
the
45:20
exemplars
45:20
of
45:21
Carl
45:21
Jung
45:22
and
45:22
Ramana
45:23
Maharshi,
45:24
two
45:24
giants
45:26
of.
45:27
What
45:28
should
45:28
we
45:28
call
45:28
them?
45:29
Explorations
45:30
of
45:30
the
45:30
most
45:31
profound
45:31
aspects
45:32
of
45:32
the
45:32
psyche.
45:34
So
45:35
maybe
45:35
you
45:35
could
45:35
say.
45:36
And
45:36
you
45:36
juxtapose
45:37
them
45:37
in
45:37
a
45:37
very
45:37
beautiful
45:38
and
45:38
skillful
45:39
way.
45:40
So
45:40
maybe
45:40
you
45:40
could
45:41
say
45:41
what
45:41
these
45:42
two
45:43
giants
45:43
represent
45:44
for
45:44
you
45:44
or
45:44
symbolize.
45:46
Stay
45:46
tuned
45:46
for
45:47
part
45:47
two
45:47
of
45:47
our
45:47
conversation
45:48
with
45:48
spiritual
45:49
teacher
45:49
and
45:49
depth
45:49
psychologist
45:50
John
45:51
Prendergast.
45:52
Thank
45:52
you
45:52
very
45:52
much
45:53
for
45:53
being
45:53
a
45:54
part
45:54
of
45:54
this
45:54
conversation.
45:54
Conversation.
45:55
We
45:55
hope
45:55
that
45:56
you
45:56
were
45:56
moved,
45:56
as
45:57
we
45:57
are
45:57
moved,
45:58
being
45:58
part
45:58
of
45:58
it
45:58
ourselves.
45:59
We'd
46:00
also
46:00
like
46:00
to
46:00
say
46:00
that
46:01
this
46:01
is
46:01
being
46:01
funded
46:02
by
46:02
Roger
46:03
and
46:03
myself.
46:03
It
46:03
comes
46:03
out
46:03
of
46:04
our
46:04
pockets.
46:04
So
46:04
if
46:05
you
46:05
would
46:05
like
46:05
to
46:05
help
46:05
us
46:06
to.
46:06
Mainly
46:07
to
46:07
get
46:07
this
46:07
podcast
46:08
out
46:08
to
46:08
more
46:09
people
46:09
because
46:09
the
46:09
bigger
46:10
audience
46:10
have,
46:10
which
46:10
is
46:11
steadily
46:11
growing,
46:11
but
46:11
the
46:12
more
46:12
people
46:12
we
46:12
can
46:12
reach
46:13
and
46:13
the
46:13
more
46:13
marketing
46:14
we
46:14
can
46:14
do,
46:14
the
46:15
more
46:15
positive
46:15
effect
46:16
we
46:16
can
46:16
have
46:16
on
46:16
the
46:16
world.
46:17
So
46:17
we've
46:17
done
46:17
that
46:18
a
46:18
couple
46:18
of
46:18
ways,
46:18
but
46:18
we'd
46:19
like
46:19
you
46:19
to
46:19
buy
46:19
us
46:20
a
46:20
cup
46:20
of
46:20
coffee.
46:21
Very
46:21
simple.
46:21
And
46:21
I
46:21
do
46:22
that
46:22
with
46:22
podcasts
46:23
that
46:23
I
46:24
support
46:24
and
46:24
I
46:25
find
46:25
it's
46:25
very
46:25
satisfying.
46:26
So
46:26
thank
46:27
you
46:27
for
46:27
your
46:27
help.
46:27
Thank
46:28
you
46:28
for
46:28
your
46:28
presence
46:29
and
46:29
thanking
46:29
for
46:29
all
46:30
you
46:30
are
46:30
and
46:30
all
46:31
you
46:31
do.
46:31
We
46:31
love
46:31
you.
46:45
Sa.