Latest / River City Mystery - Investigating mysteries in southern Indiana, southern Illinois, and western Kentucky / The Burrows Cave Mystery

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The Burrows Cave Mystery · River City Mystery - Investigating mysteries in southern Indiana, southern Illinois, and western Kentucky

• 0:01
  Speaker: On April 2, 1982, Russell Burrows was making
• 0:04
  Speaker: his way through a quiet valley in southern Illinois.
• 0:07
  Speaker: Nothing out of the ordinary, nothing dramatic.
• 0:09
  Speaker: Just another day poking around the woods.
• 0:11
  Speaker: And Burrows wasn't some casual hiker, either.
• 0:14
  Speaker: He was a highly decorated Korean
• 0:16
  Speaker: War veteran, a battle tested
• 0:18
  Speaker: officer and an experienced caver
• 0:20
  Speaker: who'd survived situations most
• 0:21
  Speaker: couldn't dream up in their worst
• 0:23
  Speaker: nightmares.
• 0:24
  Speaker: He was just about ready to head home when his boot landed on
• 0:27
  Speaker: what looked like a plain, flat slab of rock.
• 0:30
  Speaker: And then the ground just dropped out from underneath him.
• 0:33
  Speaker: In seconds, he was plunged into a hidden pit.
• 0:37
  Speaker: He instinctively knew that this was no natural hole and felt
• 0:40
  Speaker: like a trap.
• 0:41
  Speaker: A man made void designed to take
• 0:44
  Speaker: someone down and seal itself
• 0:45
  Speaker: tight.
• 0:46
  Speaker: Any other person might have been
• 0:48
  Speaker: crushed, but Burrows reacted on
• 0:50
  Speaker: pure combat honed instinct,
• 0:52
  Speaker: twisting in just enough to keep
• 0:53
  Speaker: the stone lid from locking
• 0:55
  Speaker: completely shut.
• 0:57
  Speaker: That split second move, he says,
• 0:58
  Speaker: saved his life when he climbed
• 1:00
  Speaker: back up, shaken and covered in
• 1:02
  Speaker: dust, he noticed something
• 1:04
  Speaker: strange.
• 1:05
  Speaker: The underside was carved with strange symbols and peering back
• 1:09
  Speaker: into the hole.
• 1:10
  Speaker: The pit itself held more carved stone, including a massive
• 1:14
  Speaker: ancient looking stone face staring across the dark chamber
• 1:18
  Speaker: right next to a sealed doorway.
• 1:21
  Speaker: What Russell Burroughs claims he stumbled onto that day wasn't
• 1:24
  Speaker: just a pit in the woods.
• 1:26
  Speaker: It was, he believed, the
• 1:27
  Speaker: entryway into something far
• 1:29
  Speaker: bigger, something that could
• 1:30
  Speaker: rewrite the entire history of
• 1:32
  Speaker: North America.
• 1:35
  Speaker: I see two horribly hideous looking, little dog like
• 1:39
  Speaker: creatures in this house.
• 1:41
  Speaker: It was a disembodied voice.
• 1:43
  Speaker: It was like a little child trying to scare us.
• 1:45
  Speaker: I don't know what this was.
• 1:48
  Speaker: I I've I've heard everything you can think of.
• 1:52
  Speaker: This was nothing I'm ever accustomed to.
• 1:54
  Speaker: Ever.
• 1:55
  Speaker: It was terrifying because it was like our.
• 1:58
  Speaker: There were so many people to
• 1:59
  Speaker: where it was like, are we all
• 2:00
  Speaker: seeing this?
• 2:02
  Speaker: So everybody is scared.
• 2:03
  Speaker: The kids are crying.
• 2:04
  Speaker: The women, don't, you know.
• 2:06
  Speaker: June's about to lose it.
• 2:08
  Speaker: And what are they to do?
• 2:10
  Speaker: These things will not die.
• 2:16
  Speaker: Welcome to another episode of River City Mystery, where we
• 2:19
  Speaker: talk about the mysteries of southern Indiana, southern
• 2:21
  Speaker: Illinois, and western Kentucky.
• 2:23
  Speaker: I'm your host, Matt Deig.
• 2:25
  Speaker: Before we get started with the Burrows Cave mystery, I want to
• 2:28
  Speaker: invite you to join the River City Mystery discord server at
• 2:32
  Speaker: RiverCityMystery.com.
• 2:35
  Speaker: We've got a couple hundred people in there now, a lot of
• 2:38
  Speaker: them from the tri state area.
• 2:39
  Speaker: We talk about all kinds of
• 2:41
  Speaker: topics ranging from true crime,
• 2:44
  Speaker: local true crime, national true
• 2:45
  Speaker: crime, paranormal stuff from all
• 2:48
  Speaker: over.
• 2:48
  Speaker: We've talked about cults.
• 2:50
  Speaker: We've got there's conversations going on about lots of stuff.
• 2:53
  Speaker: So if you're into that sort of
• 2:54
  Speaker: thing, which you probably are,
• 2:55
  Speaker: if you're listening, check us
• 2:57
  Speaker: out.
• 2:57
  Speaker: RiverCityMystery.com.
• 3:00
  Speaker: Before I get started, I want to
• 3:02
  Speaker: give you an update on a case
• 3:03
  Speaker: I've been working for a while
• 3:04
  Speaker: now.
• 3:05
  Speaker: Those of you who've been with me
• 3:06
  Speaker: a while, remember I have been
• 3:08
  Speaker: looking into the Zachary Carey
• 3:10
  Speaker: disappearance in twenty twenty
• 3:12
  Speaker: four.
• 3:12
  Speaker: I interviewed Zachary's mother,
• 3:14
  Speaker: Gina, and his sister Cecilia,
• 3:16
  Speaker: and did another episode within
• 3:19
  Speaker: where I talked to his best
• 3:20
  Speaker: friend, Chris.
• 3:23
  Speaker: Zachary disappeared in May of 2023
• 3:25
  Speaker: Hasn't been heard from since.
• 3:27
  Speaker: Unfortunately, the update isn't what we were hoping for.
• 3:30
  Speaker: Zachary's remains were found near Lynnville, Indiana, and it
• 3:35
  Speaker: does not appear as though this was a foul play situation.
• 3:38
  Speaker: My thoughts and prayers do go out to the family.
• 3:41
  Speaker: I know this has been a horrible couple of years for them all, so
• 3:44
  Speaker: if you would like to contribute to Zachary's final expenses, the
• 3:48
  Speaker: family has set up a GoFundMe account and I will leave a link
• 3:52
  Speaker: to that down in the show notes.
• 3:54
  Speaker: So go down and check that out and help out if you can.
• 3:57
  Speaker: Before we get into the Burrows
• 3:59
  Speaker: Cave mystery itself, I think
• 4:00
  Speaker: it's important that we dig into
• 4:03
  Speaker: a little bit about who Russell
• 4:05
  Speaker: Burrows is as a person, a little
• 4:07
  Speaker: bit of his history, because I
• 4:09
  Speaker: think it will affect the
• 4:10
  Speaker: credibility of his claims,
• 4:12
  Speaker: because most of the scientific
• 4:14
  Speaker: world is written off what he has
• 4:16
  Speaker: said and claimed as being a
• 4:18
  Speaker: hoax.
• 4:19
  Speaker: So I do think it's important to
• 4:20
  Speaker: look at his past and compare
• 4:23
  Speaker: that to, you know, at least have
• 4:24
  Speaker: that in the back of your head
• 4:26
  Speaker: when you're listening to what he
• 4:27
  Speaker: claims happened in nineteen
• 4:29
  Speaker: eighty two.
• 4:30
  Speaker: So here's a little bit about his past.
• 4:32
  Speaker: Russell was born in Richwood,
• 4:33
  Speaker: West Virginia, in nineteen
• 4:35
  Speaker: thirty five.
• 4:36
  Speaker: He enlisted in the Army right
• 4:37
  Speaker: after high school, and by the
• 4:38
  Speaker: time he was eighteen, in the
• 4:40
  Speaker: middle of the Korean War, he had
• 4:41
  Speaker: received a battlefield
• 4:42
  Speaker: commission.
• 4:43
  Speaker: This wasn't a gift.
• 4:44
  Speaker: It was earned.
• 4:45
  Speaker: He had a staggering service.
• 4:47
  Speaker: Actually, he was awarded two
• 4:48
  Speaker: Silver Stars, a Bronze Star, a
• 4:51
  Speaker: Legion of Merit, and two Purple
• 4:53
  Speaker: Hearts.
• 4:54
  Speaker: After the war, he attended West Virginia University.
• 4:56
  Speaker: His major was actually archaeology.
• 5:00
  Speaker: He never became a professional archaeologist, but he definitely
• 5:03
  Speaker: had an interest in archaeology.
• 5:06
  Speaker: He continued on with his military career.
• 5:08
  Speaker: He went to ranger training,
• 5:09
  Speaker: served in Africa, and by
• 5:11
  Speaker: nineteen sixty one was posted in
• 5:13
  Speaker: Saigon.
• 5:14
  Speaker: When he finally resigned his
• 5:16
  Speaker: commission in nineteen sixty
• 5:17
  Speaker: three, he did so as a full
• 5:19
  Speaker: colonel.
• 5:20
  Speaker: He then transitioned into civilian life, working in
• 5:22
  Speaker: transportation and later corrections, and basically
• 5:26
  Speaker: living a normal life after that.
• 5:28
  Speaker: And then in nineteen eighty two is when he discovered the cave.
• 5:33
  Speaker: He's now in his late eighties, I believe, and he's still living.
• 5:36
  Speaker: He was actually interviewed by
• 5:38
  Speaker: Brian Nettles a couple years
• 5:40
  Speaker: ago.
• 5:41
  Speaker: He says in his interview that he
• 5:43
  Speaker: had had a stroke a few years
• 5:44
  Speaker: before that.
• 5:44
  Speaker: So he's not doing that great health wise.
• 5:47
  Speaker: He has problems communicating.
• 5:49
  Speaker: And I reached out to Brian
• 5:50
  Speaker: Nettles to see if I could borrow
• 5:52
  Speaker: some of that interview for this
• 5:55
  Speaker: episode.
• 5:55
  Speaker: And he did give me permission to do that.
• 5:57
  Speaker: So I, I am going to play a little bit of that interview
• 5:59
  Speaker: that he did with Russell Burrows so that so you can hear Russell
• 6:02
  Speaker: talk about these issues himself.
• 6:04
  Speaker: Um, so I will be playing that here later in the episode.
• 6:07
  Speaker: I do think it's important to say that Russell has never, not once
• 6:11
  Speaker: backed down from the story of what he found that day.
• 6:15
  Speaker: Whether or not you believe this story, it's important to know
• 6:20
  Speaker: that he believes that it happened and maybe he was
• 6:25
  Speaker: tricked into it, but he definitely has believed that
• 6:28
  Speaker: this is all real.
• 6:29
  Speaker: Um, and he hasn't ever wavered or come out and said, uh, yeah,
• 6:33
  Speaker: it was a hoax.
• 6:34
  Speaker: I mean, so he's in his late
• 6:35
  Speaker: eighties now and he's not
• 6:37
  Speaker: backing down.
• 6:38
  Speaker: So I think that's important to bring up as well.
• 6:41
  Speaker: So what exactly did Burrows
• 6:42
  Speaker: claim to have found near only
• 6:44
  Speaker: Illinois back in nineteen eighty
• 6:45
  Speaker: two.
• 6:46
  Speaker: Um and this is an aside, but if
• 6:48
  Speaker: you've not been to only
• 6:49
  Speaker: Illinois, they are known for
• 6:52
  Speaker: their rare population of eastern
• 6:54
  Speaker: grey squirrels that are all
• 6:55
  Speaker: albinos.
• 6:56
  Speaker: So a bunch of white eastern gray
• 6:58
  Speaker: squirrels live in in only
• 7:00
  Speaker: Illinois.
• 7:00
  Speaker: And I don't know why, what the history of that is, but, uh,
• 7:04
  Speaker: they do live there.
• 7:05
  Speaker: So go check that out if you're ever in that area.
• 7:08
  Speaker: Um, but apparently in addition
• 7:10
  Speaker: to the albino squirrels, they
• 7:11
  Speaker: also have pits full of
• 7:13
  Speaker: archaeological goldmines.
• 7:15
  Speaker: So let's get back to that.
• 7:17
  Speaker: Um, after he fell into the pit, he says he managed to find his
• 7:22
  Speaker: way to a vast man made chamber.
• 7:25
  Speaker: And in that chamber, he says he
• 7:26
  Speaker: found elaborate stone coffins,
• 7:29
  Speaker: swords and other ornaments made
• 7:31
  Speaker: of gold, bronze and copper, and
• 7:34
  Speaker: thousands of intricately carved
• 7:35
  Speaker: stone tablets.
• 7:37
  Speaker: Burroughs has maintained that
• 7:38
  Speaker: this site was evidence of old
• 7:40
  Speaker: world cultures, specifically
• 7:41
  Speaker: Mediterranean and Middle Eastern
• 7:43
  Speaker: peoples, who had made it deep
• 7:44
  Speaker: into the North American interior
• 7:46
  Speaker: centuries or even thousands of
• 7:48
  Speaker: years ago before Christopher
• 7:49
  Speaker: Columbus.
• 7:50
  Speaker: And so for him, this wasn't just a cave in his mind, it was a
• 7:55
  Speaker: secret history of the world.
• 7:57
  Speaker: So he partnered with researcher
• 7:59
  Speaker: Fred Rydholm and they wrote a
• 8:02
  Speaker: book together.
• 8:03
  Speaker: And that's kind of how all the story ended up getting out there
• 8:05
  Speaker: because of this book.
• 8:06
  Speaker: It's called The Mystery Cave of Many Faces, and this book is
• 8:10
  Speaker: basically a deep dive into the entire story of the finding of
• 8:13
  Speaker: the cave and what they found.
• 8:15
  Speaker: And it even goes into various disputes with neighbors.
• 8:19
  Speaker: And there's a there's a lot of side stories involved here that
• 8:23
  Speaker: you can definitely check out the book, uh, to find it online.
• 8:26
  Speaker: I noticed it was like one
• 8:27
  Speaker: hundred bucks plus a lot of
• 8:30
  Speaker: places it's not in print
• 8:32
  Speaker: anymore, so you have to buy it
• 8:33
  Speaker: used.
• 8:33
  Speaker: Apparently it's fairly rare.
• 8:35
  Speaker: So there is a website and I have
• 8:36
  Speaker: a link in the show notes where
• 8:38
  Speaker: you can actually read it for
• 8:39
  Speaker: free.
• 8:39
  Speaker: I believe Brian Nettles I
• 8:41
  Speaker: mentioned earlier, and I'll talk
• 8:43
  Speaker: a little bit more about him
• 8:44
  Speaker: shortly, but I think he started
• 8:45
  Speaker: this website where he's
• 8:46
  Speaker: researching a lot of these, uh,
• 8:49
  Speaker: stones and the language on the
• 8:51
  Speaker: little inscriptions and things
• 8:54
  Speaker: like that.
• 8:54
  Speaker: So he also has the book on that
• 8:56
  Speaker: website that I've got linked
• 8:57
  Speaker: down below.
• 8:59
  Speaker: I think it should be known that the cave's location has never
• 9:01
  Speaker: been publicly verified, so the thousands of carved stone
• 9:06
  Speaker: tablets that Burroughs claims to have recovered are the only
• 9:08
  Speaker: tangible evidence that we have, and they are fascinating.
• 9:12
  Speaker: And like I said, links are below.
• 9:14
  Speaker: Check them out.
• 9:15
  Speaker: Make up your own mind on what what you think there.
• 9:17
  Speaker: But they're basically a
• 9:19
  Speaker: linguistic and artistic jigsaw
• 9:21
  Speaker: puzzle.
• 9:22
  Speaker: Uh, they're reportedly covered in a mix of different scripts.
• 9:26
  Speaker: There's Egyptian like
• 9:27
  Speaker: hieroglyphs, ancient Greek
• 9:29
  Speaker: characters, Phoenician symbols,
• 9:32
  Speaker: uh, other symbols that don't
• 9:33
  Speaker: seem to match with any known
• 9:36
  Speaker: script.
• 9:37
  Speaker: Um, artistically, they show
• 9:39
  Speaker: faces, ships, warriors, uh, they
• 9:42
  Speaker: things that look like royal or
• 9:43
  Speaker: elite figures.
• 9:45
  Speaker: Often they have the Middle Eastern or Mediterranean
• 9:47
  Speaker: features on them.
• 9:49
  Speaker: Those in the pro Russell Burroughs camp, the believers
• 9:53
  Speaker: argue that this mix of scripts and styles makes perfect sense.
• 9:57
  Speaker: If a refugee group or a long
• 9:59
  Speaker: distance trading expedition was
• 10:00
  Speaker: a true blend of cultures, say
• 10:03
  Speaker: Phoenician traders, Greek
• 10:04
  Speaker: soldiers, Egyptian sailors and
• 10:07
  Speaker: others.
• 10:07
  Speaker: Then a mixed language and style
• 10:10
  Speaker: on their memorial stones is
• 10:11
  Speaker: exactly what you would expect to
• 10:12
  Speaker: see.
• 10:13
  Speaker: It's a artifacts of multicultural travelers.
• 10:18
  Speaker: But the skeptics pounce on this very point, and they say it's a
• 10:21
  Speaker: hodgepodge, saying it looks like a confused forgery, and they
• 10:25
  Speaker: point to the craftsmanship, which ranges from meticulously
• 10:29
  Speaker: detailed to surprisingly crude and supporters counter.
• 10:33
  Speaker: Well, maybe the detailed ones were carved by the trained
• 10:35
  Speaker: scribes, and the crude ones were made by the illiterate soldiers
• 10:38
  Speaker: who just tried their best.
• 10:40
  Speaker: So you wouldn't have just a
• 10:41
  Speaker: bunch of people who were trained
• 10:43
  Speaker: scribes, you know, making these
• 10:45
  Speaker: things.
• 10:46
  Speaker: It's a mix of people.
• 10:47
  Speaker: So you've got people in both camps making their arguments for
• 10:51
  Speaker: why you might have a hodgepodge of different styles and
• 10:55
  Speaker: techniques on these stones, regardless of their origin.
• 10:59
  Speaker: Someone put an immense amount of
• 11:02
  Speaker: time into creating these
• 11:04
  Speaker: artifacts.
• 11:05
  Speaker: Were they ancient artisans
• 11:08
  Speaker: documenting a lost voyage, or
• 11:10
  Speaker: just some guy making these in
• 11:12
  Speaker: his basement trying to fool the
• 11:14
  Speaker: world?
• 11:14
  Speaker: We don't know.
• 11:16
  Speaker: What we do know is that
• 11:17
  Speaker: Burroughs never publicly
• 11:18
  Speaker: revealed the cave's exact
• 11:20
  Speaker: location in a way that allowed
• 11:21
  Speaker: independent experts, like actual
• 11:23
  Speaker: mainstream archaeologists, to
• 11:25
  Speaker: document it, study it, verify
• 11:27
  Speaker: its existence.
• 11:28
  Speaker: And he always gave explanations like he was worried about
• 11:31
  Speaker: looters and fear of government seizure and landowner issues.
• 11:34
  Speaker: And maybe those are legit, I don't know.
• 11:36
  Speaker: But the fact remains, no one
• 11:39
  Speaker: besides Russell Burroughs and a
• 11:40
  Speaker: few of his close associates have
• 11:42
  Speaker: ever definitively walked inside
• 11:44
  Speaker: the cave.
• 11:45
  Speaker: And that's kind of a no go for mainstream archaeology.
• 11:48
  Speaker: Like they have to be able to, to
• 11:50
  Speaker: visit the location to verify the
• 11:52
  Speaker: context in which these objects
• 11:54
  Speaker: were found.
• 11:54
  Speaker: If they can't physically go there and see the environment,
• 11:58
  Speaker: then they can't really verify that they're legitimate.
• 12:01
  Speaker: So to be fair, you know, the
• 12:03
  Speaker: mainstream science can't confirm
• 12:06
  Speaker: that these are legitimate
• 12:07
  Speaker: objects.
• 12:07
  Speaker: If they can't see the context in which they were found.
• 12:11
  Speaker: On the flip side, I think the
• 12:12
  Speaker: hoax theory has its own
• 12:13
  Speaker: problems.
• 12:14
  Speaker: Like if the whole reason for this was financial motive, he
• 12:18
  Speaker: never really made a lot of money off of this.
• 12:20
  Speaker: This, this quote unquote hoax.
• 12:22
  Speaker: He did write a book and he sold some of the artifacts, but he
• 12:25
  Speaker: never there was no huge payoff.
• 12:27
  Speaker: He never made millions on the
• 12:28
  Speaker: black market selling these,
• 12:30
  Speaker: these artifacts.
• 12:31
  Speaker: Um, and he stuck to the same story for the forty years.
• 12:34
  Speaker: He's not wavered much at all.
• 12:37
  Speaker: As far as on the details, uh, in
• 12:39
  Speaker: the interview you're going to
• 12:40
  Speaker: hear shortly, he does mention he
• 12:42
  Speaker: had a stroke in the past few
• 12:44
  Speaker: years, so his memory is kind of
• 12:45
  Speaker: shot now.
• 12:46
  Speaker: But previous, the previous forty
• 12:48
  Speaker: years, he stuck to the main
• 12:49
  Speaker: story.
• 12:50
  Speaker: He doesn't really meet the profile of someone who would
• 12:53
  Speaker: make up a hoax like this.
• 12:54
  Speaker: I mean, he's a decorated war veteran, somebody who doesn't
• 12:57
  Speaker: seem like he would risk his entire reputation to, you know,
• 13:01
  Speaker: for this this cave story, it just doesn't it doesn't seem it
• 13:05
  Speaker: doesn't add up in my head, but anything is possible as we know.
• 13:08
  Speaker: But it just, it's one of those
• 13:09
  Speaker: things that just doesn't, the
• 13:11
  Speaker: dots don't connect there
• 13:13
  Speaker: necessarily and the actual
• 13:15
  Speaker: artifacts themselves.
• 13:16
  Speaker: Um, some of them actually have aging and patina that experts,
• 13:21
  Speaker: some experts say that it's difficult to replicate those the
• 13:25
  Speaker: way they are.
• 13:26
  Speaker: So some people say that it's
• 13:28
  Speaker: those artifacts are legitimate
• 13:31
  Speaker: in some way, whether or not they
• 13:32
  Speaker: were found in that cave, I don't
• 13:33
  Speaker: know.
• 13:34
  Speaker: But, um, so there's a lot of
• 13:36
  Speaker: these things that make it the
• 13:37
  Speaker: hoax theory questionable as
• 13:39
  Speaker: well.
• 13:40
  Speaker: And next I want you to hear part of an interview with Brian
• 13:44
  Speaker: Nettles and Russell Burrows.
• 13:46
  Speaker: This was a couple of years ago.
• 13:48
  Speaker: As I mentioned, Russell Burrows had a stroke, um, several years
• 13:51
  Speaker: before this interview.
• 13:53
  Speaker: And he's not able to really do
• 13:55
  Speaker: interviews or I would reach out
• 13:57
  Speaker: to him.
• 13:57
  Speaker: But this was probably the last interview that he's doing.
• 14:00
  Speaker: And I reached out to Brian and he did say, I could use this
• 14:03
  Speaker: interview in my podcast episode.
• 14:05
  Speaker: So I appreciate that.
• 14:07
  Speaker: Brian runs a site called Book of Mormon Heartland dot com.
• 14:12
  Speaker: And as a hobby, he researches ancient languages.
• 14:16
  Speaker: And Brian has been working on a
• 14:18
  Speaker: project where he's comparing
• 14:20
  Speaker: artifacts found in Michigan in
• 14:21
  Speaker: nineteen ten to the Burroughs
• 14:24
  Speaker: Cave artifacts.
• 14:26
  Speaker: So he's got some fascinating similarities that he compares
• 14:29
  Speaker: those two findings.
• 14:31
  Speaker: Um, in that video that I will
• 14:32
  Speaker: link in the show notes, but the
• 14:34
  Speaker: video that Russell Burroughs is
• 14:35
  Speaker: interviewed where I have here in
• 14:37
  Speaker: the upcoming clip, Russell talks
• 14:39
  Speaker: about a few basic things about
• 14:41
  Speaker: the find.
• 14:42
  Speaker: And I just think it's important that you hear from Russell
• 14:44
  Speaker: Burroughs himself so you can kind of get a feel for what his
• 14:48
  Speaker: thoughts are on this.
• 14:50
  Speaker: I do have the links for Brian
• 14:52
  Speaker: Nettle's website down in the
• 14:54
  Speaker: show notes, so check that out,
• 14:55
  Speaker: as well as his YouTube video
• 14:57
  Speaker: where he's doing the full
• 14:58
  Speaker: interview.
• 14:58
  Speaker: So check that out as well.
• 14:59
  Speaker: So this is the interview between
• 15:01
  Speaker: Brian Nettles and Russell
• 15:02
  Speaker: Burrows.
• 15:03
  Speaker: Doing interviews is not something that I normally do.
• 15:05
  Speaker: I'm not one that has a podcast where I interview a lot of
• 15:08
  Speaker: people, but this was just a great opportunity for me.
• 15:11
  Speaker: Like I said, my name is Brian
• 15:12
  Speaker: Nettles, and I'm here because I
• 15:13
  Speaker: wanted to interview Russell
• 15:15
  Speaker: Burrows.
• 15:16
  Speaker: I'm a person who does a lot of investigating, uh, ancient
• 15:20
  Speaker: artifacts, trying to uncover the writing system of them.
• 15:25
  Speaker: I've done a lot of research on the Michigan artifacts, and
• 15:28
  Speaker: recently I was introduced to the Burrows Cave artifacts.
• 15:31
  Speaker: And as I looked at them and started to compare them with
• 15:34
  Speaker: what I saw in Michigan, I saw some things that I thought were
• 15:37
  Speaker: very, very compelling.
• 15:40
  Speaker: And so because of that, I became
• 15:42
  Speaker: interested and I reached out to
• 15:44
  Speaker: Russell Burrows to see if he
• 15:46
  Speaker: would allow me to, to, to talk
• 15:48
  Speaker: with him and, and get some more
• 15:49
  Speaker: information.
• 15:50
  Speaker: Because my whole purpose, my goal is I want to get a good
• 15:54
  Speaker: compilation of all of the images to do language study.
• 15:58
  Speaker: And so that's, that's where I'm coming from now.
• 16:00
  Speaker: Russell, would you like to to take a moment to introduce
• 16:03
  Speaker: yourself a little bit?
• 16:05
  Speaker: And.
• 16:07
  Speaker: And I had the misfortune of finding a cave back.
• 16:13
  Speaker: Nineteen eighty two check.
• 16:16
  Speaker: I said, do you have a you have a
• 16:20
  Speaker: long story that um, has been
• 16:23
  Speaker: told and is continues to be
• 16:25
  Speaker: told.
• 16:26
  Speaker: You've written a book, A Cave of Many Faces.
• 16:30
  Speaker: It was co-authored by other people.
• 16:33
  Speaker: You found the cave in nineteen eighty two.
• 16:35
  Speaker: So you are the Russell Burroughs
• 16:37
  Speaker: who was attributed to Burroughs
• 16:39
  Speaker: Cave, right?
• 16:41
  Speaker: How old are you now, Mr. Burroughs?
• 16:43
  Speaker: Eighty seven.
• 16:44
  Speaker: Eighty seven.
• 16:45
  Speaker: That old crock.
• 16:48
  Speaker: Now, you've told me something about the state of your health.
• 16:50
  Speaker: And.
• 16:51
  Speaker: And it's probably important that everybody know the state of your
• 16:54
  Speaker: health right now.
• 16:56
  Speaker: So my understanding is that you had a stroke recently.
• 17:00
  Speaker: Three years.
• 17:01
  Speaker: About three years ago, you had a stroke.
• 17:03
  Speaker: That's so unfortunate.
• 17:05
  Speaker: And you.
• 17:05
  Speaker: And you told me earlier that it
• 17:07
  Speaker: has had an effect on your
• 17:08
  Speaker: memory.
• 17:08
  Speaker: So your memory is not as good as it used to be, right?
• 17:13
  Speaker: Okay.
• 17:14
  Speaker: Okay.
• 17:15
  Speaker: So we just need to make sure
• 17:17
  Speaker: that that's that we're aware of
• 17:18
  Speaker: that.
• 17:19
  Speaker: Um, Russell has told me that if he says anything that conflicts
• 17:23
  Speaker: with the book, go with the book.
• 17:26
  Speaker: Right?
• 17:27
  Speaker: Right.
• 17:28
  Speaker: Okay.
• 17:29
  Speaker: Go with the book.
• 17:30
  Speaker: So, um, I do have a list of
• 17:35
  Speaker: questions that I wanted to ask
• 17:36
  Speaker: you.
• 17:37
  Speaker: So let me see.
• 17:39
  Speaker: One of the questions I have is, okay, if that's true, you are
• 17:42
  Speaker: the one who found the cave.
• 17:44
  Speaker: Yes.
• 17:46
  Speaker: Okay.
• 17:47
  Speaker: Do you believe that the
• 17:48
  Speaker: artifacts that you brought out
• 17:50
  Speaker: of the.
• 17:53
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 17:54
  Speaker: Okay.
• 17:55
  Speaker: You believe that they are ancient?
• 17:56
  Speaker: Yes.
• 17:58
  Speaker: How old do you think they are?
• 18:00
  Speaker: As a matter of opinion.
• 18:03
  Speaker: Two thousand years, about two thousand years.
• 18:07
  Speaker: Okay.
• 18:09
  Speaker: Did you ever manufacture any of the artifacts which you claim
• 18:14
  Speaker: came from the cave?
• 18:16
  Speaker: No. Do you consider yourself an honest person?
• 18:22
  Speaker: Absolutely.
• 18:25
  Speaker: Did anyone else you are aware of
• 18:27
  Speaker: ever manufacture any of the
• 18:29
  Speaker: artifacts which you claim came
• 18:32
  Speaker: from the cave and claimed to be
• 18:35
  Speaker: ancient, knowing that they were
• 18:37
  Speaker: not?
• 18:38
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 18:39
  Speaker: That crumb, Harry Hubbard.
• 18:44
  Speaker: He tried.
• 18:45
  Speaker: Okay.
• 18:47
  Speaker: What?
• 18:48
  Speaker: But as far as artifacts that you
• 18:50
  Speaker: claim came from the cave, your
• 18:53
  Speaker: belief is that all of them are
• 18:55
  Speaker: ancient.
• 18:56
  Speaker: And they were not made by you.
• 18:58
  Speaker: And they were not made by anyone, you know?
• 19:01
  Speaker: Right.
• 19:01
  Speaker: That's right.
• 19:02
  Speaker: Okay.
• 19:03
  Speaker: Did you ever manufacture any
• 19:05
  Speaker: replicas of the objects found in
• 19:08
  Speaker: the cave?
• 19:10
  Speaker: No.
• 19:10
  Speaker: No.
• 19:11
  Speaker: Okay.
• 19:13
  Speaker: Did anyone else you are aware of
• 19:14
  Speaker: ever manufacture any replicas of
• 19:17
  Speaker: the objects you found in the
• 19:18
  Speaker: caves?
• 19:19
  Speaker: Yes.
• 19:21
  Speaker: Did you like to expound on that?
• 19:23
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 19:24
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 19:25
  Speaker: The man whose property is dead now.
• 19:31
  Speaker: But.
• 19:34
  Speaker: He took all the metal.
• 19:37
  Speaker: He said he owns a foundry in Saint Louis.
• 19:43
  Speaker: He took him over there and manufactured lead.
• 19:52
  Speaker: Crushers.
• 19:53
  Speaker: Okay.
• 19:55
  Speaker: And then coated with gold.
• 20:03
  Speaker: Okay, so that would that would be Mr. Black.
• 20:07
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Speaker: Okay.
• 20:07
  Speaker: Mr. black is written about in the book.
• 20:11
  Speaker: Okay.
• 20:12
  Speaker: Approximately how many artifacts did you take out of the cave?
• 20:15
  Speaker: The book says about four thousand.
• 20:17
  Speaker: Is that sound correct to you?
• 20:19
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 20:20
  Speaker: Proofs.
• 20:22
  Speaker: Okay.
• 20:23
  Speaker: And, uh, about what percentage of the artifacts do you think
• 20:27
  Speaker: had writings on them?
• 20:30
  Speaker: Seems like.
• 20:31
  Speaker: Oh, okay.
• 20:33
  Speaker: Well, many of them have faces, and many of the faces had
• 20:35
  Speaker: writings on them.
• 20:37
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 20:38
  Speaker: Okay.
• 20:39
  Speaker: Now, did you create the writing
• 20:42
  Speaker: system that is found on the
• 20:43
  Speaker: artifacts?
• 20:44
  Speaker: No, no. So you attest that this
• 20:48
  Speaker: writing system was not concocted
• 20:49
  Speaker: by you or any other person you
• 20:52
  Speaker: are aware of who lived in the
• 20:54
  Speaker: past, say, one hundred and fifty
• 20:55
  Speaker: years?
• 20:56
  Speaker: That's right, that's right.
• 20:58
  Speaker: Okay.
• 20:59
  Speaker: Brian goes on to go over the slideshow, where he compares
• 21:04
  Speaker: photos of artifacts that were in the Michigan find along with the
• 21:09
  Speaker: artifacts in the Burrows cave.
• 21:11
  Speaker: Find.
• 21:11
  Speaker: And he compares the styles of both.
• 21:14
  Speaker: So it's pretty interesting
• 21:15
  Speaker: video, but obviously doesn't
• 21:16
  Speaker: play very well on an audio
• 21:17
  Speaker: podcast.
• 21:18
  Speaker: So you're welcome to check that out.
• 21:20
  Speaker: I wanted you to hear Russell
• 21:21
  Speaker: himself talk about the
• 21:23
  Speaker: situations.
• 21:23
  Speaker: You could hear his voice and his take on it.
• 21:26
  Speaker: So the truth is, all these
• 21:27
  Speaker: decades later, we simply don't
• 21:28
  Speaker: know whether the cave exists or
• 21:30
  Speaker: not, or whether the stones are
• 21:31
  Speaker: truly ancient or modern
• 21:34
  Speaker: creations by some guy in a
• 21:36
  Speaker: basement.
• 21:37
  Speaker: This remains one of those mysteries that's never quite
• 21:39
  Speaker: been solved, and it's a mystery from the Tri-State area.
• 21:43
  Speaker: So I wanted to bring it up, and
• 21:45
  Speaker: it definitely falls into the
• 21:46
  Speaker: realm of what we would talk
• 21:47
  Speaker: about here.
• 21:47
  Speaker: So I'd like to hear your opinion.
• 21:49
  Speaker: If you have thoughts on this, join the discord.
• 21:52
  Speaker: RiverCityMystery.com/discord
• 21:53
  Speaker: and let us know what you
• 21:55
  Speaker: think.
• 21:56
  Speaker: Thank you for listening to this episode.
• 21:57
  Speaker: Until next time, take care.