Latest / The You Project / #1855 What is Trauma? - Dr. Sarah Woodhouse

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#1855 What is Trauma? - Dr. Sarah Woodhouse · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I get to him, I hope you're bloody terrific. No,
0:02
Speaker 1: this is not the show. It sounds like it's the
0:04
Speaker 1: start to the show, but it's not. It's an AD
0:07
Speaker 1: so quick run, but it's an AD for me, So
0:10
Speaker 1: maybe stay. I'm doing a ten week mentoring program. Some
0:15
Speaker 1: of you know that I do those. I've done a
0:17
Speaker 1: couple in the last few months, and he says humbly,
0:20
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0:25
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Speaker 1: tears and laughed, a bit of joy, a bit of
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Speaker 1: transformation and inspiration and education and all of that shit.
0:36
Speaker 1: And clearly, if anyone's got all the answers to all
0:41
Speaker 1: the big questions in life's greatest mysteries, it's jumbo. It's
0:44
Speaker 1: fatty harp. So you should definitely come. No, not really,
0:49
Speaker 1: but I have spent a lifetime swimming in the deep
0:52
Speaker 1: end of the human experience and talking to people for
0:54
Speaker 1: a very long time about their stuff psychology and physiology
0:59
Speaker 1: and emotion and career and all that stuff that kind
1:03
Speaker 1: of comprises our life and how we can think better,
1:06
Speaker 1: do better, create better, and be better. So that's what
1:10
Speaker 1: it's really about. It's ten weeks, it's online, it's on zoom,
1:16
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's you and me in a zoom room,
1:20
Speaker 1: as the kids call it. And you can watch it
1:22
Speaker 1: in real time, you can interact in real time. You
1:24
Speaker 1: can watch it on delay, or you can do both.
1:26
Speaker 1: Some people come every Monday night, which it is, and
1:29
Speaker 1: they sit in there and take notes, and then they
1:31
Speaker 1: come back through the week and take some more notes.
1:33
Speaker 1: That's what some people do. So we're talking about brains
1:36
Speaker 1: and bodies and beliefs and bullshit and why and how
1:40
Speaker 1: we keep getting in our own way. And we're going
1:41
Speaker 1: to unpack fear and self doubt and communication and motivation
1:45
Speaker 1: and purpose and money and meaning and mental health and
1:48
Speaker 1: a lot of that shit that we don't deal with
1:51
Speaker 1: until it punches us in the gob. So it's structured.
1:56
Speaker 1: It's kind of structured in that we have a different
1:58
Speaker 1: theme and a different topic each week. But as you
2:00
Speaker 1: know me, I'm like four year old in a lolly shop.
2:03
Speaker 1: I do veer from the intended path from time to time,
2:06
Speaker 1: but we get there. We cover everything. It's deep and philosophical,
2:10
Speaker 1: but not cheesy and cringey and if you're expecting you know,
2:15
Speaker 1: firewalks and ice bars and unicorns and dream boards and
2:19
Speaker 1: just think positive, well you'll be disappointed. But having said that,
2:25
Speaker 1: I'll probably bring my drain catcher at least one night,
2:27
Speaker 1: so there's that. Anyway, if you're ready to stop fucking
2:30
Speaker 1: around or roll up your sleeves and actually do some
2:32
Speaker 1: work in a supportive and fun and curious and probably
2:37
Speaker 1: sweary environment, then saddle the fuck up. Kids. We start
2:41
Speaker 1: April twenty eight. Are we there? And I hope you
2:46
Speaker 1: are too. Head to my website which is crakharperdt net
2:50
Speaker 1: crakharperdt net for all the deats, I'll get a team.
2:54
Speaker 1: It's harps. Who else would it be? It's a U
2:58
Speaker 1: project of course. How we roll here a typ central
3:01
Speaker 1: Melissa is here, Sarah or doctor Sarah is here. I
3:04
Speaker 1: am here and I can see through the rectangle window
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Speaker 1: over there in what looks like a black hole with
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Speaker 1: an abyss behind her looks like eternity behind. Can I
3:15
Speaker 1: see the flames of hell in the distance? What can
3:18
Speaker 1: I just ask? Because our guest pointed out the same
3:21
Speaker 1: thing normally behind you is a YOU project kind of
3:25
Speaker 1: banner Why are you in at it? What looks like? Hell?
3:28
Speaker 1: Why are you there?
3:29
Speaker 2: I just clicked on it before I jumped in. But
3:31
Speaker 2: you're right, I didn't quite realize that it does look
3:35
Speaker 2: like I'm in some form of black hole.
3:37
Speaker 3: But have you seen stranger things?
3:41
Speaker 1: No?
3:42
Speaker 3: I haven't.
3:42
Speaker 2: But do I look like I'm off stranger things?
3:45
Speaker 3: Like you're right out stranger things. It's a little unnerving.
3:48
Speaker 1: You look like you're in the upside down. You're not
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Speaker 1: even here yet, Sarah. Just steady on, You're not here yet.
3:55
Speaker 1: Go on.
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Speaker 3: I'm housitting at the moment.
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Speaker 2: And I just clicked on it before I jumped in
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Speaker 2: that I might just blew out the background. But yes,
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Speaker 2: apparently I look quite strange.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks you actually look a little bit scary
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Speaker 1: because the entire thing is just blacknessed with your little,
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Speaker 1: very very very white and perfect complexion like the little
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Speaker 1: beacon of light.
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Speaker 2: I've just come back as a ghost.
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Speaker 3: That's me. I'm a ghost now, I reckon.
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Speaker 1: Sarah gives you a run for your money in terms
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Speaker 1: of the high quality skin. Hi, Sarah officially welcome.
4:29
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, thank you so much, and thanks for
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Speaker 3: the skin compliment. I appreciate that the camera's actually quite
4:35
Speaker 3: far away. If he's owned in, you'd see the black bags.
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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what if everyone could see you two
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Speaker 1: and me, I look like a fucking old leather boot
4:43
Speaker 1: wearing glasses. It's it's sad really, But anyway, here we are.
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Speaker 3: I mean you could say anything, Why would you? Why
4:50
Speaker 3: would you say that? You could say that Mel gibson
4:54
Speaker 3: skin's perfect.
4:56
Speaker 1: Mel Gibson's seventeen. I think he's worse than me, so right, okay, ye, yes,
5:02
Speaker 1: maybe go. Do you know who's who's got the same
5:04
Speaker 1: birthday as meat? Brad Pitt? So let's pick Brad.
5:09
Speaker 3: Nice.
5:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I don't know. Imagine being
5:12
Speaker 1: that good looking? What's it like you too? What's it
5:15
Speaker 1: like being that good looking? You too? Oh? It's hard
5:20
Speaker 1: to an anchor. You have to wear around your chair,
5:23
Speaker 1: your neck?
5:24
Speaker 3: That's right? Yeah?
5:26
Speaker 1: Hey, where do we find you? Sarah? Where are you?
5:29
Speaker 1: What country? What area?
5:31
Speaker 3: I'm just south of London and that's where you find me.
5:36
Speaker 3: Got a website to perfect, Sarah Woodhouse dot com. If
5:40
Speaker 3: anyone I'm.
5:41
Speaker 1: Going to Sarah Woodhouse dot com. Here we go. Sarah
5:44
Speaker 1: is a trauma expert research psychologist Straight Up Smarty Pants
5:48
Speaker 1: author Coach says that in her bios, straight Up Smarty Pants,
5:51
Speaker 1: which is rude coaching, creator of the freedom process, dedicated
5:55
Speaker 1: to empowering you to break free from trauma and create
5:58
Speaker 1: the life you want. There's much more, but will find
6:00
Speaker 1: out that much more as we speak. Why the interest
6:04
Speaker 1: in trauma, Sarah? Were you traumatized?
6:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, although one of the main things you learn in
6:09
Speaker 3: the book is that most of us are, or at
6:12
Speaker 3: least we've all had the traumatic reaction. But yeah, for me.
6:16
Speaker 3: Before I trained in psychology, I worked as a lobbyist.
6:19
Speaker 1: Wow.
6:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was it was really fun actually, because
6:23
Speaker 3: I was working for a music industry body, which was
6:26
Speaker 3: it was way too cool for me. And I'm not
6:28
Speaker 3: a cool person. Anyone knows me knows I'm a total
6:30
Speaker 3: geek and tell terrible jokes. So I had to leave
6:35
Speaker 3: that industry due to lack of coolness. They didn't tell
6:37
Speaker 3: me to leave I should anyway.
6:41
Speaker 1: Is there a psychometric test for that? Yeah?
6:45
Speaker 3: Basically it's how much you sweat out of your face
6:47
Speaker 3: when you're around famous people. For me, a lot, a lot.
6:51
Speaker 3: That's that's what I learned in that job. As I
6:53
Speaker 3: was at the Britain Wards. I was like, oh, no,
6:55
Speaker 3: I can't do I can't talk to anyone. I'm stumbling
6:57
Speaker 3: over my words, I'm sweating out my face, I dropping things.
7:01
Speaker 3: I just couldn't. I couldn't sustain myself and be myself
7:05
Speaker 3: around that level of coolness. So there is definitely a scale.
7:09
Speaker 3: But my last project for them was working with a
7:13
Speaker 3: fantastic charity called Reprieve, and they basically repatriate people from
7:20
Speaker 3: essentially secret prisons, so they were really key in helping
7:25
Speaker 3: us all understand what was going on at Guantanamo. So
7:29
Speaker 3: I was working with them because what they realized is
7:32
Speaker 3: that music was being used as a form of torture.
7:36
Speaker 3: So obviously they called on us to kind of have
7:38
Speaker 3: conversations about that and support their campaign, which we did.
7:42
Speaker 3: As a result of that, I met a lot of
7:44
Speaker 3: the guys being brought back. I met a lot of
7:47
Speaker 3: clinical psychologists who were specializing in trauma, and at the
7:51
Speaker 3: same time, in my personal life, my own therapist said
7:56
Speaker 3: to me, look, a lot of what you're bringing to
7:58
Speaker 3: me leads me to think that you have trauma. And
8:02
Speaker 3: so I was completely taken with this because the guys
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Speaker 3: that were coming back for severely traumatized. You know, it
8:08
Speaker 3: was high, high levels of PTSD, you know, flashbacks, essentially
8:16
Speaker 3: difficulty functioning, and there was me able to function. You know,
8:22
Speaker 3: I was anxious. I was highly anxious. I was having
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Speaker 3: panic attacks, had history of eating disorders, so that was
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Speaker 3: me and I just didn't understand how it can be
8:31
Speaker 3: the same thing. And I got completely taken with that question, really,
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Speaker 3: and I approached the UNI of Sussex and just kind
8:37
Speaker 3: of set off on this. I mean, it's been nearly
8:40
Speaker 3: well fifteen twenty years of trying to figure out what
8:44
Speaker 3: trauma is because it is the most curious of constructs.
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Speaker 3: It's the most odd thing because it is both of
8:50
Speaker 3: those things. We both had trauma, and that's odd, isn't it.
8:55
Speaker 1: So were you traumatized by listening to their stories of trauma?
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Speaker 3: I wasn't. But that is a real thing. Vicarious traumatization
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Speaker 3: is a real thing. Absolutely.
9:08
Speaker 1: We had a guest on who, well, listen, do you remember? Sorry, Jodie,
9:12
Speaker 1: You probably don't because I think I did it with Tiff.
9:14
Speaker 1: But it's that lady tip of my tongue. If she's
9:18
Speaker 1: listening to this, because she listens, I'm so sorry.
9:21
Speaker 2: You also did an episode with doctor Ingrid on that
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Speaker 2: as well.
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Speaker 1: For me. Yeah, but this lady is from Edith Cown University.
9:27
Speaker 1: She's a professor and she interviewed all these people from
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Speaker 1: nine to eleven survivors and then she got PTSD from speaking.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a real thing, Sarah.
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Speaker 3: Oh, it's a real thing. It's it's it's huge, you
9:43
Speaker 3: know within the emergency services. You know, is a great
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Speaker 3: example that the trauma isn't happening to them of course,
9:53
Speaker 3: that they're witnessing it. So it's a very real thing
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Speaker 3: and it's something that you know, all psychologists, therapists, practitioners
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Speaker 3: have to be aware of. And that's especially true if
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Speaker 3: they've got a trauma history, because we're more likely to
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Speaker 3: have a traumatic reaction as adults if there's something there
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Speaker 3: in the past that's kind of set us up for
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Speaker 3: it in terms of our nervous system.
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Speaker 1: What's the relationship Sarah, between if I mean, this is
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Speaker 1: a bloody messy question, but trauma, stress, anxiety, you know,
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Speaker 1: are they all in the same family, are they or
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Speaker 1: they just different levels of the same thing or different
10:32
Speaker 1: expressions of the same thing.
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Speaker 3: I would say yes, I would say they are. I mean,
10:38
Speaker 3: they're almost different points on the on the journey, but
10:41
Speaker 3: they're certainly all linked. You know, stress, that's an interesting one,
10:47
Speaker 3: isn't it, Because stress can you know, if you live
10:50
Speaker 3: within heightened stress for a long period of time, that
10:55
Speaker 3: can be enough to push you into a traumatic reaction.
10:59
Speaker 3: And of course then part of a traumatic reaction is
11:02
Speaker 3: anxiety like symptoms. That's primarily what we'd see, because that's
11:05
Speaker 3: indicative of the fight flight response, yes, which is that
11:09
Speaker 3: you know, going up in sympathetic activation before you might
11:14
Speaker 3: then drop into freeze, which is kind of you know
11:16
Speaker 3: that that's real shut down. But yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
11:20
Speaker 3: I mean they're not the same thing, but they're very
11:23
Speaker 3: closely interlinked.
11:26
Speaker 1: Is is. Obviously, trauma is on like most things, when
11:32
Speaker 1: we're talking about a physiological, emotional, and or psychological state,
11:38
Speaker 1: there's a scale. You know, there are levels like there
11:41
Speaker 1: are levels of fitness, there are levels of you know,
11:43
Speaker 1: every trauma and levels of I guess happiness and whatever
11:47
Speaker 1: the state is is people's trauma response is does the
11:56
Speaker 1: trauma come? Obviously, there's the stimulus, there's the thing that happens,
12:01
Speaker 1: and then there's the there's the reaction and so I
12:04
Speaker 1: guess the level of trauma experienced by the person is
12:10
Speaker 1: dependent on their interpretation and their physiological response. So sorry,
12:15
Speaker 1: I'm thinking as I'm asking the question. It's fucking terrible.
12:18
Speaker 1: I apologize everyone, but I'm thinking that trauma is not
12:21
Speaker 1: a standard response. It's an individual response to what might
12:24
Speaker 1: be the same stimulus.
12:25
Speaker 3: Yet oh totally yeah, that's what makes it so fascinating.
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Speaker 3: Two people can experience near identical events and have completely
12:36
Speaker 3: different reactions, and.
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Speaker 1: One might experience absolutely no trauma and the other one experiences.
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Speaker 3: All the trauma, experiences all the trauma. Then within that,
12:46
Speaker 3: within the you know that it's not just trauma or nothing.
12:50
Speaker 3: It's a sliding scale, you know. My hope actually is
12:52
Speaker 3: that eventually we begin to realize that trauma isn't you know,
12:56
Speaker 3: the medical or the medical the psychological psychiatric of necessarily
13:02
Speaker 3: obsessed with determining as and when you reach a certain category. Yes,
13:07
Speaker 3: does that make sense? It's like, okay, you're there, you
13:11
Speaker 3: have OCD, but or whatever it might be PTSD generalized
13:15
Speaker 3: anxiety disorder. But I think then because we tend to
13:19
Speaker 3: view I think the effect of that is that we
13:22
Speaker 3: lose sense of the spectrum and the fact that actually
13:25
Speaker 3: we're all on there somewhere just because you've reached the
13:28
Speaker 3: level at which they then diagnose. You know, it's an
13:31
Speaker 3: extreme example, but say the level for PTSD you've got
13:36
Speaker 3: to reach is ninety out of one hundred and twenty.
13:39
Speaker 3: What about the people that get eighty? They don't have PTSD?
13:43
Speaker 3: What have they got? You know, they've got express They've
13:47
Speaker 3: still got trauma. But you can say the same of
13:50
Speaker 3: any construct in psychology. It's really interesting.
13:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is that you might an incredibly valid point.
14:00
Speaker 1: All right, so I want you I don't want the
14:04
Speaker 1: academic definition. I want the Sarah definition of trauma. No pressure,
14:12
Speaker 1: no pressure, doctor Woodhouse.
14:14
Speaker 3: Drum wrong, the Sarah definition. If I was explaining it
14:19
Speaker 3: to her mate, I'd say.
14:21
Speaker 1: If you're just talking to someone who's never heard of
14:23
Speaker 1: the term, and they're not an academic researcher, I would.
14:29
Speaker 3: First explain that things have got a bit confused because
14:32
Speaker 3: people use the term to describe the event, and that's
14:36
Speaker 3: why I think we've all got a bit confused. So
14:40
Speaker 3: first i'd point that out, is that the term trauma
14:42
Speaker 3: doesn't actually it's not the thing that's the trauma that's
14:45
Speaker 3: the event, the experience, the trauma is the reaction. Yeah,
14:50
Speaker 3: they're interchangeable words, you know. It's you could say trauma,
14:54
Speaker 3: you could say really difficult reaction. But it's essentially a
14:59
Speaker 3: reaction to an experience that made you feel And I
15:04
Speaker 3: do think it's really useful to think about the three
15:07
Speaker 3: aspects of it that have to pull together because you
15:11
Speaker 3: need to feel threatened or afraid, right, Yes. And a
15:14
Speaker 3: really interesting thing to note there is that what we're
15:17
Speaker 3: learning is especially we're all so interested in CPTSD now,
15:21
Speaker 3: which is kind of it's complex PTSD the type of
15:24
Speaker 3: trauma you get from it's essentially relational or all these
15:28
Speaker 3: kind of long living within these difficult environments, home environments
15:32
Speaker 3: often for a long period of time, and so we're
15:39
Speaker 3: very interested now in that kind of relational side of it.
15:43
Speaker 3: And what we can see is that even shame can trigger.
15:48
Speaker 3: So it's not just fear, is what I'm saying. It's
15:52
Speaker 3: something that makes you feel really ashamed. Your body reacts
15:55
Speaker 3: to it as if it's a threat because we so
15:57
Speaker 3: need those social connections. Does that make sense? So basically
16:02
Speaker 3: it's it's it's an experience that makes you feel threatened,
16:06
Speaker 3: but that's not just about fear. And I think that's
16:09
Speaker 3: also where people can get quite confused, because threats to
16:12
Speaker 3: a human are just about threats to life. So that's so,
16:16
Speaker 3: that's so that's one key point. So as well as
16:19
Speaker 3: feeling afraid, it's feeling overwhelmed and out of control. And
16:24
Speaker 3: it's when those three come together that that's when you
16:27
Speaker 3: see these prolonged traumatic reactions. So that's essentially what it is.
16:32
Speaker 3: It's it's in the moment, in the absolute moment, trauma
16:37
Speaker 3: is feeling threatened, overwhelmed, and out of control. That is,
16:41
Speaker 3: that is what it is in the moment as it's
16:43
Speaker 3: happening because and I and I use those terms because
16:46
Speaker 3: they're really human. We all know how it feels to
16:48
Speaker 3: feel really overwhelmed. We just all know that, and we
16:51
Speaker 3: know how it feels to feel out of control. But
16:54
Speaker 3: what's happening underneath is that those terms are explaining quite
17:00
Speaker 3: complicated things going on in your nervous system and that
17:03
Speaker 3: fight flight freeze response that's happening, but they are our
17:06
Speaker 3: felt experience of it. So there's no point saying, okay,
17:09
Speaker 3: well the dorsal they you know, the veil nerve does this,
17:12
Speaker 3: and if Okay, well happen. How do I know? Will
17:16
Speaker 3: you know if you're feeling overwhelmed, threatened and out of control?
17:21
Speaker 1: So interesting because I'm thinking, like, you know, when we
17:26
Speaker 1: say all that or that's a traumatic event, but in
17:29
Speaker 1: the middle of that traumatic event, there's three people who
17:32
Speaker 1: aren't traumatized.
17:34
Speaker 3: Oh totally. And of the people that are traumatized, you've
17:37
Speaker 3: got some that will go on to have you know,
17:39
Speaker 3: extreme levels of PTSD. You've got others that will have
17:43
Speaker 3: a fairly minor reaction that will resolve, you know, even
17:47
Speaker 3: if it's within six months. Then they'll do the processing
17:50
Speaker 3: necessary to move out of it. Yes, And you've got
17:54
Speaker 3: people who experience post traumatic growth, so they'll have a
17:57
Speaker 3: traumatic reaction and then not only do they not have
18:00
Speaker 3: PTSD ten years later, they're awesome nearly swore then because
18:05
Speaker 3: you led the way on that they don't.
18:08
Speaker 1: You did so fuck an awesome serious because.
18:12
Speaker 3: It nearly said that is so that's so fascinating, isn't it. Yes,
18:18
Speaker 3: that you can actually you know, we hear a lot
18:20
Speaker 3: about that now, don't we that, Like from trauma to
18:23
Speaker 3: thriving it's a real thing. Post traumatic gross gross all
18:27
Speaker 3: so good, such a good growth is a real thing.
18:32
Speaker 3: You know, we know that adversity can not always but
18:35
Speaker 3: can make us stronger. And you can you can see
18:38
Speaker 3: a real reaction to that concept within the trauma community,
18:42
Speaker 3: people who are dealing with trauma, because it can feel
18:45
Speaker 3: very confronting when you say that, because it can feel
18:48
Speaker 3: so wildly different to what they're experiencing. So it's such
18:54
Speaker 3: a confusing construct thing. Yes, it is a very tricky constructs.
19:01
Speaker 1: Go fucking slippery, that little geezer, It's really slippy.
19:05
Speaker 3: And the thing I find interesting is that I first
19:07
Speaker 3: started doing, you know, publicly explaining what trauma is, maybe
19:11
Speaker 3: five years ago, and I find it harder today than
19:15
Speaker 3: I did then because I know more about it. And
19:19
Speaker 3: then I've spoken to four hundred people with it, and
19:21
Speaker 3: now I've spoken to, however, many thousand. It is a
19:25
Speaker 3: confusing thing and an evolving thing. And actually the worst
19:30
Speaker 3: thing about human beings is our need to say we
19:33
Speaker 3: are right and we know everything right and within this
19:37
Speaker 3: within this field. If you hear someone do that, it's like, oh,
19:41
Speaker 3: hang on a minute, that can't be true. We don't know.
19:45
Speaker 3: All we can do is observe and be open minded
19:48
Speaker 3: and responsive and curious you know, curiosity has to lead
19:52
Speaker 3: the way with this and listening to people that have
19:55
Speaker 3: lived experience of it.
19:58
Speaker 1: I'm with you. Or firstly, you're absolutely right. It's like
20:03
Speaker 1: the more you study, the more you research, the more
20:07
Speaker 1: you dive in, especially in the pych space. You know,
20:10
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my god. You know, my research is
20:14
Speaker 1: on self awareness, and self awareness is an ocean of
20:22
Speaker 1: different things, you know, like I thought it was a glass,
20:25
Speaker 1: it's an ocean. Like there's not even a consensus on
20:28
Speaker 1: what it is right for a start, And the more
20:33
Speaker 1: rabbit holes you go down, and the more papers you read,
20:36
Speaker 1: and the more research you expose yourself to, and the
20:38
Speaker 1: more conversations you have, which is okay, the more you
20:42
Speaker 1: realize you don't know, and the more you realize the
20:45
Speaker 1: experts don't know. They've got ideas and theories, but there's
20:49
Speaker 1: very little, especially in the sych space, there's very little
20:52
Speaker 1: that's concrete, you know.
20:55
Speaker 3: And I think that's why. Sorry to interrupt, but I
20:58
Speaker 3: think that's why my main one of my main goals
21:02
Speaker 3: is to not say I'm I'm the queen of trauma
21:07
Speaker 3: and I understand it completely and you should all listen
21:09
Speaker 3: to me, but figure out ways to commute, just to
21:13
Speaker 3: commute to talk about it, Yes, because I think I
21:15
Speaker 3: would say to you you don't need to completely understand
21:19
Speaker 3: self awareness and be the and be the dawn of it.
21:22
Speaker 3: What you need to learn to do is communicate about it.
21:26
Speaker 3: Because that's the tricky thing is taking these bizarre, you know,
21:30
Speaker 3: mind body things that are going on and bringing them
21:34
Speaker 3: into public consciousness and talking about them in a really clear,
21:38
Speaker 3: accessible light way. And I think academia is not good.
21:43
Speaker 1: At that that you are very good at. I'm not
21:47
Speaker 1: pissing in your pocket. That's an Australian term. Do you
21:49
Speaker 1: use that in Britain? Pissing in your pocket?
21:52
Speaker 3: It's excellent. I'm going to commit now to you.
21:54
Speaker 1: Pissing in your pocket means, like, you know, kind of
21:57
Speaker 1: falsely praising you. I'm not, I'm not pissing in your pocket.
22:01
Speaker 1: But no, you're good at.
22:02
Speaker 3: That's Why would you piss in someone's pocket that you need?
22:06
Speaker 1: Well, clearly you're not in Australia. You don't understand the
22:09
Speaker 1: warmth to piss in the pocket. I don't know. Stop
22:13
Speaker 1: making me think about stupid fucking Australian expressions. I bet
22:17
Speaker 1: you've never been on a podcast like this Week swear
22:22
Speaker 1: worn out every three minutes. But yeah, I think that
22:26
Speaker 1: that ability to be able, Like I don't think I'm
22:30
Speaker 1: great at many things, but I'm okay at and you're
22:33
Speaker 1: very good at sharing what can be pretty complicated ideas
22:39
Speaker 1: and concepts and constructs in a way which is listenable
22:42
Speaker 1: and use a friendly and understandable because so much of
22:48
Speaker 1: you know, science is pretty complicated. I mean, even even
22:54
Speaker 1: trying to read academic papers is just so unenjoyable. It's
22:59
Speaker 1: like we're not right the same thing, just in a
23:01
Speaker 1: way that's one understandable and two not so fuck and boring.
23:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, my PhD basically involved me submitting multiple drafts and
23:12
Speaker 3: my supervisor, who's an incredible guy, Professor Brown, taking out
23:16
Speaker 3: all the adjectives. And I was just like, I can't
23:20
Speaker 3: exist in this space. And here I was just like,
23:23
Speaker 3: you know, I'm a natural writer. I love it. I
23:25
Speaker 3: love using flowery language to communicate. I love that moment
23:29
Speaker 3: of connection that you get through language. It's not about
23:32
Speaker 3: that we.
23:33
Speaker 1: Don't want we don't want any sense of you in
23:36
Speaker 1: this writing s. You need to remove all the unice, right,
23:41
Speaker 1: we don't want this cannot be engaging at all, So
23:46
Speaker 1: not at all.
23:47
Speaker 3: At the moment, there's a whiff of it, they rip
23:50
Speaker 3: it all out. Yeah, that's why I left academia. Actually, yeah,
23:53
Speaker 3: not allowed to swear in academic papers, are you?
23:56
Speaker 1: What's up?
23:57
Speaker 3: You're not allowed to swear in academic papers. That's you,
24:01
Speaker 3: even if you were to reference it correctly, that's right.
24:05
Speaker 1: But I could reference this book, which was one of
24:07
Speaker 1: my first books.
24:09
Speaker 3: Oh wow, you really went for it.
24:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a work I just held to stop
24:15
Speaker 1: tucking around everyone. That was. That was just a fun
24:19
Speaker 1: working title for the book that I was writing, which
24:22
Speaker 1: was a small book. I've written a few. I've written seven,
24:25
Speaker 1: i think, but that was just a small and that
24:28
Speaker 1: was a working, fun title, and a bunch of my
24:30
Speaker 1: friends said you should actually call it that, and that was.
24:33
Speaker 1: That was almost the forerunner to all the fuck books.
24:36
Speaker 3: So words, so that my book You're Not Broken and
24:43
Speaker 3: had considerably more swear words in it, and Penguin were
24:46
Speaker 3: like wrong audience, which you've misunderstood. If you swear about
24:51
Speaker 3: draw it makes it much less scary.
24:54
Speaker 1: You and I have a similar this is very boring
24:57
Speaker 1: for the listeners. But so that book, this book that
25:00
Speaker 1: I'm showing him holding up, stop fucking around. Was followed
25:04
Speaker 1: by this book, which was published by Penguin, Well, pull
25:08
Speaker 1: your finger out, which is a shit title, right, So
25:11
Speaker 1: that was published by Penguin, and I said to Penguin,
25:14
Speaker 1: I don't want to call it that. It's a shit title.
25:16
Speaker 1: And they went, oh, we've done all the research and
25:18
Speaker 1: the group testing and the blah blah blah, and the
25:23
Speaker 1: fuck book outsold the Penguin book about six to one,
25:29
Speaker 1: and the Penguin book is a better book with a
25:32
Speaker 1: shit title. And I said, for them, it won't work.
25:34
Speaker 1: They're like, you're the author, you just write stuff. This
25:37
Speaker 1: is what we do. We market, we sell, you know,
25:39
Speaker 1: just trust us. Anyway, I feel like I've thrown Penguin
25:43
Speaker 1: under the bus a few times. I'm sorry Penguin. I
25:45
Speaker 1: do appreciate you that you took me under your wing.
25:48
Speaker 3: But well they're amazing and they're keeping us on the street.
25:51
Speaker 3: And narrah, imagine the world without people telling us not
25:54
Speaker 3: to swear. I swear just a bit less, Just a
25:56
Speaker 3: bit less, guys, Just.
25:59
Speaker 1: You should a reprint of not You're not broken, by
26:02
Speaker 1: the way, everyone have a look at that. You're not broken.
26:04
Speaker 1: You should call it you're not fucking broken, geezer.
26:09
Speaker 2: That's too good.
26:10
Speaker 1: You should do that.
26:12
Speaker 3: You should do that.
26:13
Speaker 1: You're not fucking broken, geezer, you're just having a bad day.
26:17
Speaker 1: In you an anniversary edition, I'll write a forward. Enjoy this,
26:25
Speaker 1: you fuckers. Oh that's hilarious. So is there a relationship
26:34
Speaker 1: between Like you said, jumping back into something kind of serious,
26:38
Speaker 1: but you spoke about having and eating disorder when you
26:43
Speaker 1: were younger, and did that arise out of any form
26:47
Speaker 1: of trauma? Is there any relationship with that and you
26:50
Speaker 1: know some of some of your struggles later. Yeah.
26:55
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I was molested when I was a kid, which
27:00
Speaker 3: most bizarre thing about saying that is I had always known,
27:05
Speaker 3: and probably the most interesting and useful thing to say
27:08
Speaker 3: about that is that I was always aware, but somehow
27:14
Speaker 3: I wasn't. It was like this bizarre memory where I knew,
27:20
Speaker 3: but consciously I would just push it away all the time.
27:24
Speaker 3: And I think the fact that I think, the fact
27:27
Speaker 3: that I have that experience, and I really have that
27:30
Speaker 3: lived experience of that cognitive avoidance, helps me be the
27:35
Speaker 3: practitioner that I am, because that is bizarre. I mean,
27:38
Speaker 3: the mind is bizarre, so so incredible, so interesting. So yes,
27:46
Speaker 3: But as I say, what you find is that there's
27:50
Speaker 3: usually a trauma before. Okay, so that was potentially you know,
27:55
Speaker 3: we don't know, and there's genetics as relevant, you know,
27:57
Speaker 3: inherited trauma and all of that kind of stuff. But
28:00
Speaker 3: say that was the first one, then it really sets
28:03
Speaker 3: you up for the next. So you know then in
28:06
Speaker 3: life that that there were more So for example, I
28:09
Speaker 3: was I was really bullied, physically bullied at school. And
28:14
Speaker 3: that's been a really tricky one to navigate actually, interestingly
28:19
Speaker 3: on picking that because I was I was within feeling trapped,
28:25
Speaker 3: feeling out of control, overwhelmed and highly threatened and not
28:28
Speaker 3: able to leave for how many years, four or five
28:31
Speaker 3: years and deeply fearful, you know, having to run away
28:36
Speaker 3: coming home with bruises, you know, some really really gnarly stuff.
28:41
Speaker 3: And because it was prolonged that it's had it's had
28:44
Speaker 3: a big impact. Actually. Yeah, So that's that's been a
28:47
Speaker 3: really tricky one to to unpick. And I can, and
28:50
Speaker 3: I can.
28:51
Speaker 1: Still I wish I was there. I would have protected you.
28:55
Speaker 3: It's awful, isn't it. Yeah, it's so awful. It's so
28:59
Speaker 3: busy and who knows, I mean, you know, I'm sure
29:03
Speaker 3: that those that they were kids, you know, Paul, then
29:07
Speaker 3: what was going on at home to make them so
29:10
Speaker 3: angry and vicious?
29:12
Speaker 1: You know?
29:13
Speaker 3: And and of course there's there's my part in it,
29:16
Speaker 3: which is I was the type of kid that was
29:19
Speaker 3: essentially going to let them do it.
29:20
Speaker 1: You know.
29:21
Speaker 3: I didn't have that that that grit, that pushback, that
29:26
Speaker 3: that confidence to kind of say no, leave me alone.
29:30
Speaker 3: So it was just years of being kicked in the head.
29:34
Speaker 1: How are you now with all of that? Because you
29:36
Speaker 1: seem incredibly great, like, how are you are you just
29:40
Speaker 1: a great communicator? And but does that is this still
29:44
Speaker 1: hard for you? This stuff?
29:47
Speaker 3: No, it's it's really not. I mean I don't enjoy
29:51
Speaker 3: I don't enjoy that being my truth. You know, It's
29:54
Speaker 3: not like it doesn't fill me with joy saying. But
29:58
Speaker 3: the thing that I have absolutely learn and I would
30:01
Speaker 3: just really hope that anyone listening really gets this, is
30:05
Speaker 3: that you can't heal any of this in secret. And
30:09
Speaker 3: the more that you talk about it, the more that
30:11
Speaker 3: you kind of stand up into it, into the memories,
30:14
Speaker 3: into the truth of it, your truth, not an objective truth,
30:18
Speaker 3: but just your truth. I'm aware that people listening might
30:21
Speaker 3: be like, oh my gosh, she was only bullied. It
30:23
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. Somebody else's objective opinions of what happened to
30:28
Speaker 3: me doesn't matter. What matters is that I can stand
30:32
Speaker 3: up and say this is my truth, this is what
30:33
Speaker 3: I experienced, and yes it was traumatic for me.
30:37
Speaker 1: Again, that's because trauma is completely personal, isn't it. It's
30:41
Speaker 1: like for me to get on stage and talk to
30:43
Speaker 1: a thousand people as exciting for a lot of people,
30:46
Speaker 1: that's completely fucking terrifying.
30:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, It's.
30:51
Speaker 1: All about how we respond or what that means to us.
30:55
Speaker 1: And it's not just psychological, it's emotional, it's physiological. You know,
31:00
Speaker 1: it's a full body experience.
31:03
Speaker 3: It is a full body experience, and that's what trauma is,
31:06
Speaker 3: you know. And I'm obsessed now. Before I was obsessed
31:09
Speaker 3: with figuring out what trauma is, and now I am
31:12
Speaker 3: completely obsessed with figuring out what we do to heal
31:15
Speaker 3: it and the steps that we need to take. And
31:18
Speaker 3: one thing that is very clear is that you have
31:22
Speaker 3: to heal the body. You have to heal the nervous
31:23
Speaker 3: system because essentially this it lives on as dysregulation, right
31:28
Speaker 3: as hypervigilance. We're constantly looking out for threats, and it's
31:32
Speaker 3: fascinating when you begin to get really clear about how
31:35
Speaker 3: it's affecting your physiology. So, for example, people with trauma
31:38
Speaker 3: have a much narrower vision because they're just they're literally
31:42
Speaker 3: looking for threats a.
31:45
Speaker 1: Vision, literal vision as in physical literally Wow, their peripheral
31:51
Speaker 1: vision is not as good their periphery.
31:55
Speaker 3: They when they are in hypervigilant modes, they they tunnel vision.
32:01
Speaker 3: It is complete tunnel vision. Yeah, So what they're doing
32:05
Speaker 3: and what happens is as they do that, as they
32:07
Speaker 3: begin to scan for threats, and these are often relational, right,
32:11
Speaker 3: I mainly deal with relational trauma. So they say there're
32:14
Speaker 3: a I don't know, a family, a family event, something
32:17
Speaker 3: like that that subconsciously they know this is a or
32:22
Speaker 3: the sense that this is a place where they're not safe.
32:26
Speaker 3: So then it's one example of so many physiological things
32:30
Speaker 3: that are happening. Their vision will narrow because they're trying
32:34
Speaker 3: to literally trying to spot the threats. But as their
32:37
Speaker 3: vision narrows, then that physiological action then signals more threat
32:42
Speaker 3: to the body. So you've got this awful cycle of
32:48
Speaker 3: so so anyway, I'm using that as an example to say, okay,
32:51
Speaker 3: so what's the solution with this, With this precise example,
32:55
Speaker 3: what's the solution. The way that you signal safety to
32:58
Speaker 3: your body is to leave the room and go and
33:00
Speaker 3: look at the horizon, right, you know that I'm just
33:04
Speaker 3: that blows my mind. But understanding that this system response
33:09
Speaker 3: is affecting the way that you move, the way that
33:13
Speaker 3: you walk, the way that you talk. So we need
33:17
Speaker 3: to learn to selectively embody safety and that's a really
33:25
Speaker 3: important part of healing, you know. And then a lot
33:28
Speaker 3: does that make sense?
33:29
Speaker 1: Yeah? I love it. I love it. And also things
33:32
Speaker 1: like so we have a guy on here who's also
33:37
Speaker 1: doing his PhD, a friend of mine who's got a
33:39
Speaker 1: master's in uh excise physiology and nutrition, and he's doing
33:45
Speaker 1: his pH d in psych and his name's Paul Taylor.
33:48
Speaker 1: Shout out to PT. And we've spoken a bit about
33:51
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth as well. But it but the whole
33:56
Speaker 1: you know, like trauma to me seems like it's multi dimensional.
34:03
Speaker 1: It's there's a psychological, emotional, and physiological component of course,
34:08
Speaker 1: but you know that it's unders like I think when
34:11
Speaker 1: we talk about trauma, a lot we think about the mind.
34:14
Speaker 1: But also you know, the physiological consequence of this emotional
34:18
Speaker 1: and psychological stuff is you know, like you said, is
34:23
Speaker 1: sympathetic nervous system being switched on and you know, all
34:26
Speaker 1: the stressful mons adrenaline and cortisol and you know, this
34:30
Speaker 1: hypervigilance and elevated heart rate and breathing and this. You know,
34:33
Speaker 1: you get in that on a semi regular basis, and
34:36
Speaker 1: then you're starting to create this like inflammatory response in
34:39
Speaker 1: the body on a cellular level. And you do that
34:42
Speaker 1: often enough, and you're literally creating disease, Like you're creating
34:46
Speaker 1: physical like trauma and stress and anxiety. You know, long enough,
34:52
Speaker 1: over long enough time, often enough, literally you know, suppressed
34:56
Speaker 1: immune system, greater risk of all of these things. I
34:59
Speaker 1: don't want to be too doom and gloom, but like
35:02
Speaker 1: nothing operates in isolation with humans. Like we kind of
35:06
Speaker 1: treat the mind and the emotions and the body separately,
35:10
Speaker 1: but it's an integrated system that needs to be treated systematically,
35:14
Speaker 1: but as one.
35:16
Speaker 3: Oh totally, And you actually can't. You can't treat trauma
35:21
Speaker 3: if you view them as separate. Yes, it's not the
35:23
Speaker 3: mind and the body, it's the mind body. You can't
35:27
Speaker 3: that you have to pull them together into the same space, yes,
35:30
Speaker 3: or you don't stand a chance. Really, And actually the
35:35
Speaker 3: thing that has to come first is that the kind
35:38
Speaker 3: of physiological nervous system healing. So the phrase we use,
35:43
Speaker 3: which of course you would have heard, is disregulation.
35:46
Speaker 1: Right.
35:47
Speaker 3: So if you're living with trauma, prolonged stress whatever it is,
35:50
Speaker 3: or heightened anxiety even you know there's those three links
35:53
Speaker 3: together again, you have a disregulated nervous system. It's not
35:57
Speaker 3: operating in the way that we need it to. Essentially,
36:01
Speaker 3: that means that you go up into sympathetic activation really quickly,
36:06
Speaker 3: so you're constantly scanning for threats, things that might be wrong,
36:09
Speaker 3: whether that's in the relationship space, whether that's at work
36:11
Speaker 3: or you know, whatever that is. And of course if
36:14
Speaker 3: you're scanning for threats, you're going to see more, right,
36:17
Speaker 3: it's that kind of tunnel vision thing. Yes, you go
36:20
Speaker 3: up into sympathetic activation and what a regulated system. It
36:27
Speaker 3: still feels stress, right, So they'll go up and then
36:31
Speaker 3: there's that lovely bell curve because then they'll come back down,
36:34
Speaker 3: so the parasympathetic will switch on and pull you back down. Now,
36:38
Speaker 3: what we know of a traumatized nervous system is that
36:43
Speaker 3: that doesn't happen, So there isn't that beautiful rhythm that's necessary.
36:48
Speaker 3: They go up and they stay up essentially, and once
36:51
Speaker 3: they're up, once they're stressed, they're much more likely to
36:54
Speaker 3: then go into a full on fight flight freeze response
36:58
Speaker 3: and be really triggered.
37:00
Speaker 1: Is treating trauma. I don't know if that's the right word,
37:03
Speaker 1: but you know, like healing treatment blah blah blah is
37:09
Speaker 1: like in medicine and even in exercise physiology, which is
37:13
Speaker 1: my background, right, It's everything that we do is an
37:17
Speaker 1: educated guess because not everyone needs the same medicine, not
37:21
Speaker 1: everyone needs the same program, even if they have the
37:23
Speaker 1: same goals, Right, you know, some people might want to
37:27
Speaker 1: build overall body strength, and ten people come to me
37:30
Speaker 1: with the same goal, I've got to prescribe ten different
37:32
Speaker 1: programs because of their unique physiology and background and training
37:37
Speaker 1: history and all those variables. I would think too, that
37:42
Speaker 1: healing from trauma, recovering whatever, I would think that there's
37:49
Speaker 1: you know, there's a multitude of I guess PANACEEA is
37:55
Speaker 1: based on you know, where people are at and what
37:58
Speaker 1: they best respond to. Because what might be healing for
38:02
Speaker 1: someone you know, it's like for somebody like Melissa who's
38:05
Speaker 1: a dog lover, lying on the floor with a fucking
38:08
Speaker 1: labrador puppy is literally therapeutic. For somebody else, it's.
38:13
Speaker 3: Trauma regulation all over that.
38:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if somebody else lying on the floor where
38:19
Speaker 1: the dog would be traumatic because they're scared of dogs.
38:22
Speaker 1: So really about the individual.
38:24
Speaker 3: Right, that is absolutely true. And I used to be
38:28
Speaker 3: very careful in the way that I described it because
38:34
Speaker 3: what I saw was that it tended to be easier
38:38
Speaker 3: for people to begin to process. So the first thing
38:41
Speaker 3: to point out is that as we have really is
38:45
Speaker 3: that trauma exists in the body, in the nervous system.
38:48
Speaker 3: It exists cognitively, so in the mind and thinking patterns,
38:52
Speaker 3: in overthinking, you know, all that mind stuff. Emotionally of course,
38:56
Speaker 3: which is you know, felt in the body, and behaviorally,
39:00
Speaker 3: so we see all these often it's compulsions, but behaviors
39:05
Speaker 3: designed to help us cope with moving up into that
39:09
Speaker 3: arousal aroused state, you know, dealing with that kind of
39:12
Speaker 3: too much energy, and also avoiding those avoidance behaviors. Okay,
39:17
Speaker 3: so we've got the whole raft of them, and it's
39:20
Speaker 3: really important to see that that's what's that, that's what's
39:24
Speaker 3: going on. That we've got the main you know. So
39:28
Speaker 3: it's about the body, it's about the mind, it's about
39:30
Speaker 3: the emotions. And I used to say, or I observed
39:33
Speaker 3: that it was much easier for people to begin talking
39:36
Speaker 3: about it, gentle. Processing. Processing just means moving through something
39:41
Speaker 3: in a way that changes it. Because when we experience trauma,
39:45
Speaker 3: we don't process what happens. Okay, So a normal memory
39:49
Speaker 3: is far away in our autobiographical memory, a trauma memory.
39:53
Speaker 3: In fact, that's an incorrect term. There's no such thing
39:55
Speaker 3: as a trauma memory. It's just this disparate, disparate spread
39:58
Speaker 3: of information. So we need to process. That's really important.
40:02
Speaker 3: We need to process, to move through the information in
40:05
Speaker 3: different ways. And what I noticed is that for a
40:09
Speaker 3: lot of people I spoke to, it was easier to
40:11
Speaker 3: talk okay, yeah, But I had another segment of people
40:17
Speaker 3: I would speak to that would couldn't at all. They
40:20
Speaker 3: didn't want to go there, and they had to do
40:21
Speaker 3: body work for us. So they had to work with
40:26
Speaker 3: somatic experiencing practitioners say and begin to process what was
40:30
Speaker 3: going on in their bodies. And that was personality driven,
40:35
Speaker 3: you know, all sorts of things going on in that.
40:37
Speaker 3: And then also you've got people who were you know,
40:39
Speaker 3: so far into an addiction. They've got to stop drinking
40:41
Speaker 3: before they can do anything else. Yes, so it's really
40:45
Speaker 3: dependent on where we're at. Yes, but I now confidently
40:49
Speaker 3: say that every single one of those people or personality
40:53
Speaker 3: types or you know, wherever they're at, the first point
40:57
Speaker 3: for all of us is to learn how to regular
41:02
Speaker 3: I really believe it's so keenly now that from there,
41:06
Speaker 3: then yes, you might, you might want to go and
41:09
Speaker 3: cognitively processed, you know, you do talking therapy, you might
41:12
Speaker 3: want to go down the somatic or look at your behaviors.
41:16
Speaker 3: But we can't properly do anything until we learn to regulate,
41:21
Speaker 3: until we learn to feel how it feels to be
41:25
Speaker 3: going stress, stress, stress, stressed, and learn gentle calming ways
41:29
Speaker 3: to bring ourselves back down. Does that makes sense, because
41:33
Speaker 3: because as you're doing that, you're building capacity into the system.
41:38
Speaker 3: Once you can do that, and it's not that we
41:41
Speaker 3: need to all do it perfectly. We're supposed to be disregulated,
41:44
Speaker 3: we're supposed to be stressed. You know, these aren't terrible
41:47
Speaker 3: scary words it's okay, but we do all, every single
41:50
Speaker 3: one of us needs to learn how to regulate.
41:53
Speaker 1: I think it's very liberating when you realize this and
41:57
Speaker 1: a loving way. Oh we're all a bit fucked up,
42:00
Speaker 1: we're all a bit traumatized, we've all got issues, we've
42:03
Speaker 1: all been bullied or similar. You know that, because I
42:07
Speaker 1: think when you just live with it yourself, you know
42:12
Speaker 1: there's part of you that I guess intellectually, we know
42:15
Speaker 1: that we're not the only one. But in that space,
42:18
Speaker 1: in that kind of you know, in that moment, in
42:21
Speaker 1: that feeling, in that experience, you feel like it's just you,
42:26
Speaker 1: and you feel like you're the weirdest one. Like, yeah,
42:29
Speaker 1: there are other people, but no one's as weird as me.
42:31
Speaker 1: No one feels like I feel in this moment. But
42:35
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's almost our perceived weirdness is a
42:39
Speaker 1: common bond, like we all feel. You know. I've felt
42:43
Speaker 1: in my life often weird, like I don't belong, not
42:46
Speaker 1: good enough, like not worthy enough, not fucking athletic enough,
42:50
Speaker 1: not smart, all of these things, you know. And I
42:53
Speaker 1: was in a minor way. I was bullied at school,
42:55
Speaker 1: but not a lot. I was a fat kid, right,
42:58
Speaker 1: but I escaped relatively unscathed. But you know, all of
43:03
Speaker 1: that stuff that four decades ago, I can remember stuff clearly,
43:09
Speaker 1: well it seems clear. Maybe it's distorted, but it seems
43:12
Speaker 1: very clear to me that happened forty years ago because
43:15
Speaker 1: it was you know, and it's like you it's only
43:18
Speaker 1: relevant to the person. But as I look back now,
43:21
Speaker 1: I think, fuck, that wasn't really a big deal. But
43:24
Speaker 1: to the fat fourteen year old, it was a really
43:26
Speaker 1: big deal, you know, and that being able to self regulate.
43:31
Speaker 1: Do we need to Like one of the things that
43:35
Speaker 1: I say, which is kind of cliche and it's making
43:37
Speaker 1: me think about whether it's accurate, is we can't overcome
43:41
Speaker 1: what we don't understand. Do we need to understand trauma.
43:46
Speaker 1: Do we need to understand how it works to be
43:48
Speaker 1: able to deal effectively with it? Or do we just
43:50
Speaker 1: need tools?
43:52
Speaker 3: No, we need to understand that, right, We are absolutely,
43:55
Speaker 3: one hundred percent need to understand it. And I think
43:57
Speaker 3: one of the ways that we do a disservice to
44:02
Speaker 3: people is to provide really dumb down information because we
44:07
Speaker 3: need to be clear, definitely, but we we don't need to,
44:13
Speaker 3: you know, do a puppet show we're we're yes, all
44:19
Speaker 3: of us need to understand. It's not it's not hard
44:21
Speaker 3: to understand. There's the sympathetic branch, there's the parasympathetic branch.
44:25
Speaker 3: You know, Okay, this is what's happening. It's it's liberating
44:29
Speaker 3: to understand that. It gives you a sense of control,
44:32
Speaker 3: and that is what we're looking for. That is the
44:34
Speaker 3: an today, right, Yes, you think about that, that that
44:38
Speaker 3: weird equation. I do.
44:39
Speaker 1: So.
44:39
Speaker 3: It's threat, overwhelm and feeling out of control. So of
44:43
Speaker 3: course clarity it speaks to that piece. We want to
44:45
Speaker 3: help people feel in control, you know, and that overwhelm
44:51
Speaker 3: also has helped I would say by by that connection
44:54
Speaker 3: that you've just talked about, you know, understanding that you're
44:57
Speaker 3: not on your own. It's actually it's normal to be triggered,
45:00
Speaker 3: it's normal to be dysregulated. Most of us have experienced
45:04
Speaker 3: well all of us have experienced a traumatic event. And
45:08
Speaker 3: we're humans. And I'm one thing I'm really noticing at
45:13
Speaker 3: the moment is I obviously speak to a lot of therapists,
45:15
Speaker 3: a lot of trauma therapists, and loads of them recently
45:20
Speaker 3: have started using this language around how our generation is
45:25
Speaker 3: particularly traumatized because because the changes and how we talk
45:30
Speaker 3: about mental health have been so vast, and looking at
45:36
Speaker 3: how a family forty years ago was talking about emotions
45:40
Speaker 3: and what was going on in the home and what
45:41
Speaker 3: wasn't was and wasn't kind of acceptable in terms of
45:47
Speaker 3: emotionally I'm talking about compared to now. And also an
45:52
Speaker 3: awareness of the systems that we're living in. You know,
45:55
Speaker 3: the school system, for example, promotes dysregulation. It's not great.
46:00
Speaker 1: Yeh.
46:01
Speaker 3: Kids are rarely taught to regulate. They're rarely teachers. You
46:05
Speaker 3: know that their role models aren't going no, no, I
46:08
Speaker 3: just need a moment. I'm just going to take a break, Okay,
46:10
Speaker 3: I just need to just rest. That's not going on
46:14
Speaker 3: in businesses or schools all across the world. Instead, what's
46:18
Speaker 3: happening is go go, go, go faster, go stronger, you know,
46:22
Speaker 3: just keep going, keep going, push through it. You know,
46:25
Speaker 3: in our generation, not only have we got the kind
46:28
Speaker 3: of generational trauma in our systems A lot of people
46:33
Speaker 3: would say, you know, from the world from World Wars.
46:36
Speaker 3: You know, grandmother's, grandfather's parents. We're growing We've been growing
46:42
Speaker 3: up in this really intense system that requires more and
46:46
Speaker 3: more from us. Plus we were parented in a way
46:49
Speaker 3: that didn't teach us to regulate. Yes, So I don't
46:54
Speaker 3: mean to start depressing at all. My hope is My
46:57
Speaker 3: hope is that by us conversation.
47:01
Speaker 1: No, it's not, it's not. It's very relevant.
47:06
Speaker 3: Because they weren't having these conversations ten years ago, exactly exactly.
47:10
Speaker 3: So the more we talk about it, and the more
47:11
Speaker 3: I say, yeah, I was I was molested, and the
47:14
Speaker 3: more I say yeah, I had an eating disorder, and
47:16
Speaker 3: the more we can move towards it and call it
47:21
Speaker 3: what it is, the more hateful that in you know,
47:24
Speaker 3: our kids and the next generation will have better tools.
47:28
Speaker 1: You're You're amazing. I'm not just saying that, like I'm
47:31
Speaker 1: so sorry that what happened happened, but I'm so thankful
47:36
Speaker 1: that you're so evolved and so articulate and so okay
47:41
Speaker 1: that you can come on here and talk the way
47:43
Speaker 1: that you talk, because you know, it's it's liberating and
47:47
Speaker 1: it's But more importantly, I think, aspart from what you're saying,
47:52
Speaker 1: which is really interesting and fascinating and insightful and educating,
47:56
Speaker 1: I think just people listening to you, not only how
48:00
Speaker 1: okay you are but how brilliant you are despite where
48:03
Speaker 1: you've been and what you've seen and what you've been through.
48:06
Speaker 1: Like for me, that's just as important because I find
48:10
Speaker 1: that encouraging. I find where you are at your okayness.
48:14
Speaker 1: You know that's I think that's a big encouragements people.
48:19
Speaker 1: Do you are you? It's not the right word, but
48:21
Speaker 1: you'll know what I'm talking about. Are you proud of
48:24
Speaker 1: the journey that you've been on and the how functional
48:28
Speaker 1: and how good you are despite what you've been through.
48:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really proud. I am really proud. But I
48:34
Speaker 3: also need all your listeners to understand that my okayness
48:38
Speaker 3: is totally fallible. Okay, I am a human. I have
48:41
Speaker 3: really bad days, right, you know it's a very human okayness.
48:46
Speaker 3: And do you know the main thread of my okayness
48:49
Speaker 3: comes from complete self acceptance, accepting the things that happened
48:54
Speaker 3: and accepting my bad days, accepting that there are parts
48:57
Speaker 3: of me that misspeak, accepting their parts to me that
49:00
Speaker 3: are anxious. Sometimes you know, it's it's it's that's it's that.
49:04
Speaker 3: I just I think self acceptance is the number of
49:08
Speaker 3: it is the heart of it.
49:09
Speaker 1: Really, How do you balance self acceptance. Sorry, Sarah, how
49:12
Speaker 1: do you balance because I'm with you but not like
49:18
Speaker 1: what happened to you is not okay. But at the
49:22
Speaker 1: same time, there's got to be a level of acceptance
49:25
Speaker 1: because I guess you can't spend the next thirty years
49:28
Speaker 1: being angry and bitter and frustrated about things you can't change.
49:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's true. I haven't really talked about that
49:37
Speaker 3: aspect of it much. Absolutely right. Of course it's not okay.
49:42
Speaker 1: Because you're saying there's got to be acceptance, and part
49:45
Speaker 1: of me when fuck acceptance. But I know what you mean.
49:50
Speaker 1: I think it's more for your mental health than your
49:52
Speaker 1: own healing.
49:54
Speaker 3: But at the business you know, it's not. No, it's
49:57
Speaker 3: not like a religious kind of you've got to accept
49:59
Speaker 3: it and forget if I don't mean that, it's more
50:02
Speaker 3: the phrase that comes to mind is it's calling a
50:05
Speaker 3: spade a spade. It's seeing it clearly, it's stating it.
50:10
Speaker 3: So when I say when I say acceptance, I suppose,
50:14
Speaker 3: especially in relation to our past, I think it's more
50:17
Speaker 3: clearly stating your truth seeing it, just holding it there
50:22
Speaker 3: like yes that happened, and yes that was my reaction.
50:26
Speaker 3: No more did it happen, did it not? Should it have?
50:29
Speaker 3: Should it not? But just hold it? See it almost
50:34
Speaker 3: It's tricky, isn't it. But there is a sense of
50:35
Speaker 3: ownership there. So in that space, that's what I mean. Really,
50:39
Speaker 3: it's truth telling. That's what it Just get.
50:43
Speaker 1: To the level of okayness that you're now at. When
50:45
Speaker 1: did you start just going this is what happened. I'm
50:48
Speaker 1: not you know, I'm not flowering it up. I'm not embellishing,
50:52
Speaker 1: I'm not value I'm just saying, this is my truth,
50:55
Speaker 1: this is what happened. When did that happen for you?
50:58
Speaker 1: When did you get there? A year ago, ten years ago.
51:04
Speaker 3: Probably about five years ago? Really really was able to
51:07
Speaker 3: five years ago. It's a very interesting story. Having kids
51:15
Speaker 3: the same age as I was when it happened. Wow,
51:18
Speaker 3: more memories. So I had to then do a lot
51:22
Speaker 3: of work with some great therapist, great sematic practitioner, great
51:28
Speaker 3: IFS practitioner, internal family systems, which I love. It's so
51:31
Speaker 3: good to support me through that. The stuff that came up,
51:35
Speaker 3: so it's layered. You know, everyone was an onion, isn't it.
51:39
Speaker 3: That's what they say healing it's an onion. But that
51:43
Speaker 3: is just the truth of it. You know, the only
51:46
Speaker 3: way not to do it is not to do it
51:47
Speaker 3: at all. You just little steps forward. It doesn't really
51:50
Speaker 3: matter what direction that's in. And I've always had this
51:55
Speaker 3: for us. I am in the twelve Step Fellowship. So
51:58
Speaker 3: I went to OA for my eating disorder, which is
52:01
Speaker 3: over each synonymous, terrible name for someone with anorexia. It
52:05
Speaker 3: was very very conflicting for me to go there, like
52:08
Speaker 3: overas s anonymous.
52:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to wear that libel? Is there?
52:13
Speaker 1: An underrated? Is anonymous? Anyway?
52:15
Speaker 3: I think they've created one for all the egoistic anorexics
52:19
Speaker 3: that couldn't possibly walk in the room. Yeah, I'm joking. Sorry,
52:22
Speaker 3: I'm being terribly silly.
52:23
Speaker 1: It's not.
52:29
Speaker 3: And within that it's it's quite a spiritual thing, you know.
52:32
Speaker 3: It brings a spiritual dimension necessarily because really, you know,
52:37
Speaker 3: if you if you have any kind of addiction, you've
52:39
Speaker 3: got control issues. That's what it's about. So that there's
52:43
Speaker 3: a big dollop of let go go with the flow,
52:48
Speaker 3: try and trust everything's okay. They're trying to bring that
52:50
Speaker 3: aspect of it, and I think that was really important
52:55
Speaker 3: for me in this space around this particular.
53:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wow, incredible. I don't know what your availability is,
53:07
Speaker 1: but we definitely need to get you back. I'm going
53:09
Speaker 1: to tell you right now. I can tell you that
53:11
Speaker 1: my listeners, our listeners are going to fucking love you.
53:15
Speaker 1: Oh no, your if you lived over here, would be friends.
53:20
Speaker 1: Even if you didn't want to be my friend, you
53:22
Speaker 1: would be. I'd bully you into it.
53:25
Speaker 3: I definitely would.
53:26
Speaker 1: Be traumatized by how friendly I was.
53:28
Speaker 3: No, I definitely would. I'll tell you why, because all
53:31
Speaker 3: my dearest friends wear an enormous amount and it gets
53:33
Speaker 3: me in a huge amount of trouble. Safely, I went
53:35
Speaker 3: to my youngest daughter, she's four, and I went to
53:38
Speaker 3: a birthday party that was all very proper, and I
53:41
Speaker 3: ended up accidentally saying to a mum that a venture
53:46
Speaker 3: she was doing was fucking weird, and I was laughing hysterically.
53:49
Speaker 3: I meant with so much love, and I was bit
53:52
Speaker 3: I'm just I mean, I'm a I'm a schoolgates disaster.
53:56
Speaker 3: So we definitely would.
53:57
Speaker 1: I'm sure they bloody love you. I'm sure you know
54:00
Speaker 1: you need to write a book with fuck on the front,
54:02
Speaker 1: or like I said, you need to do second edition.
54:05
Speaker 1: If you're not fucking broken Geezer.
54:06
Speaker 3: Actually my next book. The chapter in it is called
54:09
Speaker 3: fuck the System.
54:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. Perfect, see you liberate everyone, Sarah Woodhouse dot com.
54:18
Speaker 1: Go there, buy You're not Broken? Buy ten copies. And
54:24
Speaker 1: how do people find you, follow you and just generally
54:27
Speaker 1: fucking love the shit out of you on social media?
54:29
Speaker 1: How do they do that?
54:31
Speaker 2: Well?
54:31
Speaker 1: Yeah?
54:31
Speaker 3: Please do that? Make me so happy? I'm at the
54:34
Speaker 3: Sarah Woodhouse on Instagram and Facebook, and I'm at sn
54:39
Speaker 3: underschool Woodhouse on Twitter. Sarah Naomi. You see middle name
54:44
Speaker 3: Sarah Naomi.
54:45
Speaker 1: We've got Melissa, Marie, Craig, Anthony, and Sharah Naomi. That's perfect.
54:52
Speaker 1: Hey will you come back?
54:54
Speaker 3: I would love to come back.
54:55
Speaker 1: I think you can.
54:57
Speaker 3: Liberating Glorious Experience sweary.
55:01
Speaker 1: How much better is this podcast than anyone you've ever
55:05
Speaker 1: been on?
55:06
Speaker 3: I mean, like a lot, or just a bit, it's
55:09
Speaker 3: so much better. I'll tell you what I'm actually I
55:12
Speaker 3: don't know if this is terrible. I think my favorite
55:17
Speaker 3: podcast is broad Topics. Have you ever heard it? No,
55:22
Speaker 3: It's it's wildly rude, but it's it's next level. It
55:28
Speaker 3: makes you seem like a preschool teacher.
55:31
Speaker 1: I need to lift my game then, because I do
55:33
Speaker 1: not want to be seen as a priest for a
55:35
Speaker 1: range of reasons.
55:39
Speaker 3: So I'm totally down with the vibe of this podcast.
55:41
Speaker 3: If you listen to broad top topics, you'll go, oh wow.
55:44
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I'll think I need to ramp it up.
55:47
Speaker 1: Sarah stay there, will say goodbye off here. But you're
55:50
Speaker 1: fabulous and thank you for what you do. You're a
55:53
Speaker 1: gift to the world and we appreciate you. Burning on
55:55
Speaker 1: the You project.
55:56
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much. It's been an absolute blast.
55:59
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank.
56:00
Speaker 1: You, Thanks Melissa, thank you both. That was brilliant, it
56:04
Speaker 1: was Thanks everyone. Don't you just love her? Don't you
56:07
Speaker 1: want to just squeeze her a little bit till she
56:09
Speaker 1: fast with a squeeze? Yeah, squeeze would be good. Thanks everyone.