Latest / Romancing the Threshold / Walking to the Edge of Desire: My Husband Reads Romance

Transcript

Walking to the Edge of Desire: My Husband Reads Romance · Romancing the Threshold

• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Romancing the Threshold.
• 1:17
  Today's episode is a little different and a little vulnerable
• 1:21
  because my guest is
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: my husband,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Jason.
• 1:25
  Now,
• 1:25
  if you know Jason,
• 1:27
  you know that romance novels are not exactly his comfort zone.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: His creative world revolves around graphic design,
• 1:34
  music and YouTube documentaries about DJs and the electronic
• 1:39
  scene of the 90s.
• 1:41
  and the occasional dystopian TV show or movie that I can't even
• 1:46
  sit through.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: But for this conversation,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: he stepped into my world of romance books and thresholds with curiosity,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: and yes,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: with some discomfort and even awkwardness from both of us,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: which I'm sure you will pick up throughout this episode.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: It definitely was a new threshold that we crossed,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: having him show up from his usual behind-the-scenes place in my work.
• 2:10
  He's the one that often helps me with my website and graphics
• 2:14
  for my projects.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And he also created the intro melody for this podcast.
• 2:20
  It feels especially meaningful to share this episode now
• 2:24
  because it's coming out
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: during our wedding anniversary week.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Still,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: there's something tender about inviting Jason into this space with me,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: not just as my partner in life,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: but as a partner in conversation,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: crossing into each other's worlds in real time.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: For this episode,
• 2:41
  I asked him to read a few passages from some of the romance
• 2:45
  books I've read and to
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: share his perspective.
• 2:49
  What unfolded was more than just a commentary on book
• 2:53
  boyfriends or monster lovers.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: It became a conversation about fantasy and reality,
• 2:59
  about how stories test our boundaries and about what it means
• 3:04
  to cross thresholds
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: together.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Along the way,
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Jason brought his shy humor,
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: his pragmatism,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: and his reflections on his own threshold moments in life.
• 3:15
  This episode is a peek behind the scenes and also a reminder of
• 3:20
  what this podcast
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: is about,
• 3:22
  stepping into unfamiliar spaces together and discovering new
• 3:26
  insights along the
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: way.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So let's begin.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to my podcast.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Hello.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: My husband.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's me.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's you.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: The man, the myth, the legend.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not that much, but yeah.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: My book club of one.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as you say.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: So before we just dive into the books,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: the name of the podcast is Romancing the Threshold.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think about the word romancing, what comes to mind for you?
• 4:02
  It's like the tenderness and like the sweet things people do
• 4:05
  for each other and
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: like the thoughts and those kind of things,
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: like the notes or like,
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: sending texts or are just doing nice little things for each other.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's, you know, saying, oh, I care about you.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Those kind of things.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds like it's like thoughtfulness.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thoughtfulness and consideration and more about like,
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to feel as good about you as you feel about me kind of thing.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like just letting the other one know.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the podcast is called Romancing the Threshold.
• 4:39
  So when you think about that phrase,
• 4:41
  what does it mean to you or what could it mean?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's probably something different for everybody,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe it's,
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: when you say threshold,
• 4:54
  it's that point between here and there or between like fantasy
• 4:58
  and reality.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: it's more about finding,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: the point where you can be romantic and,
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: have your partner,
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: back and forth with you,
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: like...
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: I guess so.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like a nice title.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think you did well naming that kind of thing.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, for me, it doesn't mean anything specific.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've been reading these romance novels this year,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: and sometimes as I'm reading the books,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I start sharing with you the story,
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: what I'm shocked about,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: what I'm enjoying.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a lot of that.
• 5:44
  And we've had several conversations in these last few months
• 5:48
  about the books and the stories.
• 5:51
  So what went through your head when I invited you to be my
• 5:55
  guest and talk about
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: some of these books?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: like you say,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the book club of one and I'm kind of like your male perspective on,
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: just stuff like in our lives together,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: like just as much as you're my point of view for like,
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: what do women think kind of thing.
• 6:14
  But I guess what went through my head when you asked me to be a
• 6:20
  guest here,
• 6:20
  it was more like
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do this together and let's see what you think.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: this isn't really my cup of tea,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: but I totally see where it's fun and it's exciting and fantastic.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the creativity here is just off the charts.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think that's a lot of fun.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's fun to kind of talk about it.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Even though,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a big book reader,
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: I still think it's a lot of fun to just hear about this stuff.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and by the way, for your listeners, you may hear our cats.
• 7:00
  You know,
• 7:00
  they tend to get rowdy and playful for about two seconds and
• 7:04
  then they calm down.
• 7:05
  But they may jump around or cry or something because we're not
• 7:09
  paying attention to them.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they're very demanding.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: They can be.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: What did you make of me reading all these books?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've always been a reader, mainly nonfiction.
• 7:21
  And this year it was a sharp turn into diving into reading
• 7:26
  romance novels,
• 7:27
  monster romances.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what kind of.
• 7:32
  I think without getting too much into like current events and
• 7:35
  stuff like that.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it's more of a creative outlet.
• 7:39
  It's more of a like,
• 7:40
  let's read something fun than constantly being inundated with
• 7:44
  the news.
• 7:45
  Like we could probably talk for an hour about like everything
• 7:48
  that's being blasted
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: to you on your phone or on your screen or whatever it is,
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:52
  and I think this is probably a nice way to kind of think about
• 7:56
  other things and to
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: have that creative outlet,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's anything per se reflective on you as a person.
• 8:07
  I just think it's when somebody might pick up a new hobby or
• 8:12
  when somebody might
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: seem to be more interested in something new.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's all.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:19
  Yeah,
• 8:20
  for me,
• 8:21
  I was never really a romance reader or even much of a fiction
• 8:25
  reader.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was a fiction reader to my early 20s and then a lot of nonfiction,
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: but I have found these books to be...
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: A nice scape,
• 8:36
  but also keeping the creative juices flowing instead of being
• 8:39
  dried up with all
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: that's being blasted at us.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not your typical stuff either.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely more of an edge.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely has more spice, as they would say.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: It makes for, you know, a good page turner.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: It makes for something to be... It makes for something...
• 9:02
  to be hopeful for you're you're excited to read the next
• 9:06
  chapter you're excited to
• 9:08
  okay this is the end of the night i get to read my book now um
• 9:11
  so you know i think
• 9:13
  that's probably what inspired you or got you into this like
• 9:18
  you've read how many
• 9:19
  books now 113 i think 113 yeah as of the recording of this you
• 9:21
  know you've read 113
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: that's a lot yeah yeah that's a lot
• 9:29
  I do like the guaranteed happy ending as much as the hero or
• 9:33
  heroine may suffer.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: In the end, there's a happy ending.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there is that resolution and you do like that resolution.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So often we will watch movies or we will, you know...
• 9:47
  some kind of television show or or whatever it might be and
• 9:50
  nothing will happen
• 9:51
  there'll be no resolution there'll be worse off than it was
• 9:54
  before and we're both
• 9:55
  just like shaking our fists at the sky like why why you know
• 10:00
  why do this yeah yeah
• 10:02
  like i don't like that you know no i ever since i was a kid i
• 10:06
  like my fairy tales
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: to have a happy ending
• 10:08
  some kind of resolution yeah we want that beginning middle and
• 10:11
  end we want that
• 10:12
  resolution and like you said yeah these books do have that at
• 10:16
  the end which is good
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: yeah now i gave you a um i think was uh about eight books
• 10:24
  seven books and you know of course I didn't tell you to read
• 10:29
  the entire book but I
• 10:30
  gave you some scenes to read and I chose these because these
• 10:35
  are the books I had at
• 10:37
  hand some of the scenes were scenes that I liked others were
• 10:41
  scenes that I thought
• 10:43
  were interesting to get your male perspective I hope that's not
• 10:48
  a lot of pressure
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: of the male perspective here
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's not really a male perspective.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably, for me, it's somebody who doesn't read this stuff.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I was coming at it, especially with all you've told me about it.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I do have a little bit of a tainted point of view.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And looking at the overall...
• 11:11
  theme the overall just the characters and like what you've told
• 11:17
  me about them like
• 11:18
  oh this person is good that person is bad so I kind of had a
• 11:22
  little upfront
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: knowledge
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: But, yeah, not too much of a male perspective, per se.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: because some of the times,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: like I said,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do call you my book club 01 because I'm reading a book,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited about the story,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: and I just need to share.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you get all of it, you know, the excitement.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's fun.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's fun to hear it, yeah.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: So just overall,
• 11:51
  with these scenes and maybe thinking about some of the other
• 11:54
  stories I might have
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: shared with you these past months,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: from your perspective,
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: what do you think women are getting out of reading?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm presuming that most of the readers are women.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, we do know that men do read these books.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: But what do you think women are getting from these stories?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, there are more than just women reading this.
• 12:18
  So I think it is a bit of fantasy and it is a bit of escape,
• 12:25
  but in a way that isn't...
• 12:29
  super in your face and isn't um trying to tear down something
• 12:35
  it's not trying to be
• 12:36
  anything that it isn't um so a lot of this romance stuff it was
• 12:41
  kind of idealized
• 12:43
  but in a very tender way in a in a way that isn't uh just fire
• 12:49
  hosing you to the
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: face with like sex and nudity and you know like
• 12:53
  A male perspective might be like some kind of porn or something
• 12:57
  like that,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: where it's like,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've got your pizza,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: but I don't know how to pay.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next scene is just like on the table,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: it's just gratuitous and,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: legs are in all these directions and stuff.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we're getting here.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: we're getting a bit more of the... How do I put it?
• 13:19
  We're getting a bit more of what a woman wants rather than what
• 13:23
  a man thinks a woman wants.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: So in porn,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: they're thinking,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: a woman just wants to be banged silly,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: so she can't remember her name.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: But in these novels, in these stories...
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about just doing the act.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole lot of mental connection.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole lot of tenderness.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole lot of use your words,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: tell me what you want,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: and intuition from body language and things like that.
• 13:55
  So I think what women are getting out of this is more subtlety
• 14:02
  rather than being
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: smacked on the head with a giant penis in your face.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:07
  although there are some scenes and you i think you read some of
• 14:11
  them they are very
• 14:13
  graphic but they are but they're done in a very tasteful erotic
• 14:18
  way like i wouldn't
• 14:20
  think that this was x-rated material at all excuse me um but
• 14:26
  when you read it and
• 14:28
  you're using your mind's eye to kind of vision it yeah that's
• 14:32
  some triple x stuff
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:35
  You were touching on the fact that the difference between these
• 14:37
  scenes and porn.
• 14:40
  Do you think some of the way the desire was expressed is that
• 14:45
  how would you compare
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: for men and women a little bit more?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Men seem to have more of a visceral, like a material desire.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like they just want to grab the hips and just go for it.
• 14:58
  Where women seem to have more of a,
• 15:01
  for lack of a better word,
• 15:02
  like ethereal lust.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like they want more of the environment.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: They want more of the passion.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: They want more of a lustful desire in his eyes.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of thing like that, you know.
• 15:16
  I think it's more about the whole scene rather than just one
• 15:21
  particular act.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 15:23
  because there are some scenes that I'm thinking about where the
• 15:27
  woman does want the
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: male character to unleash,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: to go wild.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it all comes within this,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: what you're saying,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: this ethereal context of there's a desire.
• 15:40
  There's so much that has already happened that by the time you
• 15:43
  get to that real
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: grab the hips and go for it,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: a lot more has already happened.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: But when I think about...
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: What you say about porn is much more let you go straight in there.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it kind of doesn't matter who they are.
• 15:57
  It doesn't matter if it's person A and person B.
• 16:00
  They're just doing this kind of mechanical act.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And whether or not you think it's hot is just up to the viewer.
• 16:06
  But with this writing and with a lot of the intimacy that's
• 16:11
  brought about...
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: It is more about that desire.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like she may want him to just take her and ravish her,
• 16:18
  but it's more about she wants him to show her his desire in a
• 16:25
  physical way.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: If that makes sense.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 16:35
  some of the books I had you read and a lot of the books I read
• 16:38
  this year are
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: monster romances.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm falling back to my favorite fairy tale, Beauty and the Beast.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: If this is a Beauty and the Beast remake, I'm here for it.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think men have their own version of a monster romance?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's stuff like World War II stuff.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Warhammer.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's video games.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's those kind of things.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's more of like tech and fidgety things.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where kind of men have that same kind of lustful desire.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I kind of think the monsters here...
• 17:21
  It's more about a symbol rather than this person actually being
• 17:27
  a monster or an
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: alien or something.
• 17:29
  It has more to do with let's get this kind of certain symbol
• 17:33
  and this certain way
• 17:36
  of describing somebody's personality and then fit them into
• 17:42
  this desire from a
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: woman or,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: from the opposite sex.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think that these monsters could be symbolizing?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: It could be like inner self-loathing.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: It could be that overall confidence.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of men will display this huge male machismo,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: but they have zero self-confidence.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're really overcompensating.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hence the lifted truck with, you know, the giant exhaust.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the guy is probably,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: five foot two,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: and just doesn't know how to satisfy his wife kind of thing.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So he has to overcompensate.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the monster is this kind of big hulking,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: basilisk,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: or big hulking minotaur.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: But inside, they're wanting that softness.
• 18:38
  They're wanting,
• 18:38
  excuse me,
• 18:40
  they're wanting the gentleness,
• 18:43
  you know,
• 18:43
  so...
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: they're wanting the softness of the touch.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: They are vulnerable, that kind of thing.
• 18:53
  They don't necessarily have the same thing on the outside as
• 18:57
  they are on the inside.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: So some of these characters,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: they wear a mask or they're from another planet or something like that.
• 19:04
  So they use these monster tropes to kind of symbolize a certain
• 19:12
  personality.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you touched on something I've been thinking about.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the books are written by women.
• 19:18
  So you would say that the women are projecting onto these
• 19:22
  monsters something.
• 19:24
  But one question I've been wondering about is if these monsters
• 19:29
  are symbolizing the
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: vulnerability that men have,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: but perhaps perceived by the female writers and readers.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think of that?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's largely stereotypical.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So like you've got a big,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: large minotaur person,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: but he's really soft inside and he wants to be accepted,
• 19:54
  but he wants the other person to be in control because he's
• 19:58
  literally a bull in a
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: china shop.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: He will just destroy everything and nobody can stop him.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So he's always in control.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 20:07
  the feeling maybe is that he needs other people to be
• 20:15
  comfortable and in control
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: around him.
• 20:17
  So people aren't afraid and they can invite him over to their
• 20:21
  home and have them in
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: their bed without feeling that they're going to end up a bloody pulp or,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: all their dishes are broken kind of thing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think on the outside,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: these monsters,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: whatever they are,
• 20:35
  they're kind of showing a larger kind of behavioral or
• 20:41
  psychological stereotype.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 20:45
  And when you were reading some of these passages and seeing how
• 20:49
  men were being
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: portrayed or the masculine,
• 20:53
  what did you think about intimacy and vulnerability that was
• 20:59
  being described?
• 21:01
  There's a lot about making sure the woman is comfortable and
• 21:08
  pleased and feeling
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: the intimacy,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: more so than the masculine.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And in some of them,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: the masculine did have some feminine traits,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: like the sensitivity,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: the well-groomed,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: how do you say,
• 21:32
  maybe the particular nature of wanting to have a certain
• 21:38
  environment around them or
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: a warmth of making sure your friends and family are,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: well-regarded and well-received.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: What was the question again?
• 21:51
  Well,
• 21:52
  what comes up for you in terms of how intimacy and
• 21:55
  vulnerability were being shown?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: so a lot of it is just gentleness,
• 22:02
  like a gentle touch or making sure that she's pleasured first
• 22:08
  or making sure
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: there's acceptance and what's the word everybody talks about?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would...
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like consent.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, you know, that looks really bad on my part.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, consent.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's always a lot of consent.
• 22:29
  A lot of like we were saying earlier,
• 22:31
  use your words,
• 22:32
  you know,
• 22:32
  tell me what you want.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is this okay by you?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it was...
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: More about making sure she agrees,
• 22:44
  making sure that he is doing what she wants rather than what he
• 22:52
  wants or what he
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: feels that she wants.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So as they say, the female pleasure comes first.
• 22:59
  Yeah,
• 23:00
  and he wants to know so that he can pleasure her at any time
• 23:04
  without her having to say.
• 23:06
  So there's a lot of this getting to know what makes her tick
• 23:11
  and where that passion
• 23:13
  lies and where that desire lies for her so that he can fulfill
• 23:18
  that at any time.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just gets more and more and more.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can see how the masculine wants to know what...
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Her desires are to be fulfilled so that he can build off of that.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: So he can make it greater and greater and greater every time.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: maybe the first few times he's asking her the questions,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: but the second time or third round,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: he knows what to do and they can start to build off of that.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it can...
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: continuously get more and more just, just freaky.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Just,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: and to break down those barriers,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: because a lot of times people are,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: people are afraid,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: people are scared.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's nervous to say, Hey, put your finger there.
• 24:03
  Or,
• 24:03
  you know,
• 24:04
  like I like popsicle sticks,
• 24:06
  you know,
• 24:06
  kind of thing,
• 24:07
  whatever your kink might be.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's nerve wracking.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to say, you know, is this what we're going to do?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:16
  And by going more and more and the masculine has a tendency to
• 24:23
  want to learn those
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: desires for her.
• 24:25
  And I think women find that pleasurable because all too often
• 24:29
  we see in like movies
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: and television or stuff like that.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, yeah, he had a good time.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, oh, how was date night?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: He finished in this world over and went to bed, you know.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's an unfortunate trope, but that's true.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:44
  So,
• 24:44
  with that in mind,
• 24:46
  do you think men would benefit reading romance novels?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think with a certain sense of open-mindedness, sure.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: But no, I don't.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: No?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a different avenue.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's, you know, men are from Mars, women are from Venus kind of thing.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think the idea is there, sure, but I don't think the delivery is right.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, I get it.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, reading all these passages, you know,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: the woman wants to be desired or,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: your partner wants all of these things,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: you should learn about them and,
• 25:21
  and pleasure them and all these kinds of things in ways that
• 25:23
  are almost superhuman.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 25:26
  the sheer volume of some of these fluids and the sheer size of
• 25:30
  some of these,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: the male member.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I read one this morning and she literally said,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: how am I going to fit all of that?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think that really appeals to men per se,
• 25:44
  whenever you want them to really understand like how a woman
• 25:48
  thinks or what a woman
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: desires.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there's got to be a different way.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think that could be?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think men want more technical.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think men want more literal instructions.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think men need to have their fingers wrapped,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: if they're like not saying,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: I will pleasure you first.
• 26:10
  You know,
• 26:11
  like we need to get in the behavior of understanding like just
• 26:15
  the physiology.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: For example,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: if you just jump into bed and start banging away,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: he's going to finish before she does unless,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: she's some freak of nature and she's already ready to go.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not how nature works.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: the man has to or one side has to please the other,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: knowing that one's going to finish first.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:38
  So if we could only translate the romance novels into more
• 26:42
  engineering instruction books.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some IKEA instructions would work really well.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: IKEA instructions.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: maybe like an auto parts manual or,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: something around those lines,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: yeah.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:55
  it can't be like a roadmap or anything because everybody knows
• 26:58
  men don't read maps.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: No maps then.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: No maps, yeah.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: But they might lose their minds if it's an IKEA instruction.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: They might not know which side is up or down or anything,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: but I think it needs to be more literal.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be so figurative.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be so demonstrative.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be like insert tab A into slot B,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: after,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: doing X,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Y,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: and Z.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think it needs to be like that.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the poetic language would be too much over their heads.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: It leaves too much for interpretation.
• 27:27
  And it isn't exacting enough because men want to know,
• 27:32
  how can I make you happy?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do to make this right?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they don't want the subtleties most of the time.
• 27:38
  They want,
• 27:39
  you know,
• 27:39
  a cut and dry,
• 27:41
  like,
• 27:41
  let's,
• 27:41
  you know,
• 27:42
  let's get this done.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Use your basic words.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like figure out a method.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want to say that's why golf is so popular with men,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: because it's all about perfecting that swing.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about doing it just in the right way.
• 27:57
  And you practice and practice and practice and you do it just
• 27:59
  the right way and you
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: get the results.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: OK, last romance novel was more golf.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: so switching a little bit of some of the books you read,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: what was your overall take on them?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Any one that stood out to you?
• 28:17
  For all of them,
• 28:18
  I mean,
• 28:18
  I felt like it was all about the object of desire.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: The lust and affection, I think, were really important.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even really worrying about like,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: gender or anything like that,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: but it's
• 28:36
  the total devotion and desire of your partner and that person
• 28:41
  wanting to do
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: everything to give you just the most mind-blowing pleasure you ever had.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a bit like Christmas morning, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's better to give than receive, that kind of thing.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: in all of these novels,
• 28:56
  it is that fantastic vision of how many times can he fulfill
• 29:01
  your wildest desire in
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: one night?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just keeps going and keeps going,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: and like,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: just when you thought his bag of tricks was done,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: boom,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: here comes another one.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: they,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: every partner's desire to have,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: your partner just like drooling and lusting over you.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 29:22
  and there's there's nobody else not even looking thinking you
• 29:26
  know desiring anybody
• 29:28
  else it's all about that that one person and just doing
• 29:31
  everything to make them see
• 29:32
  stars on a regular basis yeah yeah yeah and there's one thing
• 29:36
  we did talk about
• 29:37
  this before even recording that there's a sense of almost like
• 29:41
  they're the duracell
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: i'm not the duracell the the battery the bunny
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: The Energizer Bunny.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Energizer Bunny.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: They just keep going.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: They keep on going just when you thought, okay, we're done.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: The snap.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: There it goes again.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 29:57
  to talk about like why men probably won't get too much out of
• 30:00
  these because that's
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: not very realistic.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, even, you know, teenagers, you know, come on.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: You need a break.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: You need 15 minutes, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: You got to have a drink of water,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: maybe get up,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: splash some water on your face,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: something like that.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: You got to recharge a bit.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you think it's underneath that?
• 30:21
  I mean,
• 30:23
  of course,
• 30:24
  most of the ones I gave you,
• 30:25
  these are magical beings,
• 30:27
  right?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, except for the one about the hacker guy.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the book lovers.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Book lovers, yeah.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, like 80% of these were magical creatures.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the fantasy is times 10.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: But as a guy reading that, what comes to your mind?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is this what women are wanting?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: What is this?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fantastic desire.
• 30:52
  It's like the best Playboy magazine that a guy could read or
• 30:58
  somebody who's into women.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's that total fantastic desire.
• 31:04
  I think it tries to leave no stone unturned and press every
• 31:08
  button of what they might want.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: In the sort of Instagram and TikTok world,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: people talking about books,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: there's this idea of the book boyfriend,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because the women get so attached to some of these characters.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And is that like a perfected, like idealized thing?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So whatever the whoever the character is,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: they become,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:33
  they live rent free in these people's minds and imagination
• 31:37
  because he's so
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: perfected.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: He's either very powerful.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, the sex is amazing.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: So is it just kind of a fantasy thing?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like maybe they're like,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 31:46
  I have my real life boyfriend and then I have my book boyfriend
• 31:49
  and I wish my real
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: life boyfriend was like my book boyfriend.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: It could be that.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of little videos about that,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: that kind of playful thing of like,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: this is my book boyfriend.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't he amazing?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if the women have their partners,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: there is this like,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: the partner is never going to fulfill that.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're never going to live up to that.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Never.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: But also there's a lot around the fantasy, the book boyfriend.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a sense that if the women are single,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: then it's like,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: you're ruining me for real men.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: So are they trying to project this,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: idealized...
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of some a bit of the play of these videos,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: the comedy of these videos.
• 32:31
  And I would say perhaps some of the criticism that might be
• 32:36
  given to these types of
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: books and this idea of the book Boyfriend.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because, well, the projection of the fantasy now is too much.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:45
  Uh,
• 32:46
  it feels like it's just the same kind of,
• 32:49
  um,
• 32:49
  complaint or the same kind of thing.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's just taken a different form,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: like let's say it was in the eighties,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: you wanted a wall street guy,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: that made six figures and drove a BMW and anything like,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: or he's gotta be six feet tall or,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: he's gotta have a college degree or,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: or,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: something like that,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of this,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: standards that are needing to be met,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: but now it's just a,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: it's just something else.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: For some people,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: it might be,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:16
  she's got to have a certain size chest or he's got to have a
• 33:19
  certain shape butt,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: or,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: they don't date short kings or whatever,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: whatever the term might be.
• 33:26
  So,
• 33:26
  you know,
• 33:26
  it just feels like it's the same kind of thing,
• 33:29
  but just a new flavor.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: The new flavor, right?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: For the Jane Austen fans,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: it would be Mr.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Darcy,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: but now it just might be Reese Ann from,
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Akotar.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:40
  or like some of these crypto bro guys may not date anybody
• 33:44
  who's not a fashion
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: model.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, oh, you know, I can't do that.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: If she doesn't have this certain kind of look or,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: if she's not doing whatever,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: she didn't go to this school,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: then I'm not going to date her kind of thing.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just more of the same of this fantasy of...
• 34:00
  Yeah,
• 34:00
  just a different segment of people and a different segment of
• 34:04
  interests and stuff.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I was thinking too,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: what do you think now for people who are in a relationship,
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: maybe not looking for a relationship,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: they're already in an either married or a long term,
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: how do you think reading these books affect the relationship?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: It could probably go a few ways.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: It could either be like her secret obsession,
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe that leads to her maybe spending more time alone.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And she's spending more time with the books and in her own fantasy world.
• 34:35
  It could lead to trying to find that emotional connection or
• 34:41
  that desire outside the marriage.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: It could lead to them...
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: and opening up and discussing between them.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, this book, I think a lot of it is a two-way street.
• 34:52
  I think if the partners are both open-minded and one of them
• 34:56
  doesn't just shut it
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: down,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is probably bad in any situation,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: it can lead to a lot of exploration and creativity.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I personally don't think anything's wrong with it.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: I like it when you discuss this kind of stuff.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean...
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Very much, I kind of discuss what I'm into, you know, with you.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it can be a net positive,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: and I really hope it is for a lot of people,
• 35:21
  because it can open that creative outlet and the initiation of
• 35:26
  discussion.
• 35:27
  I always hear about these stories like we see on film and
• 35:32
  television and like popular media.
• 35:34
  Oh,
• 35:35
  like,
• 35:35
  yeah,
• 35:36
  we came back from the show last night and it wasn't even our
• 35:39
  normal night.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: so it's like there's this implication that,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: we only have sex on Tuesdays,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: or it's it's Friday night.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: We go to the grocery store.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's Sunday.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: We do laundry, you know, all of these routine, all of this kind of stuff.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so anything to break out of that routine,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: to just get out of that boredom and to create a little spontaneity,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would really hope that these books would open up that door.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: there's actually quite a lot of articles that talk about reading smut,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: as they say,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: has helped people open up in their relationships.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: It has helped libido.
• 36:19
  It has helped the sex in a relationship because all of a sudden
• 36:23
  your imagination is
• 36:26
  activated and it kind of takes you out and it can lead to
• 36:30
  self-discovery as well,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: like of things you might...
• 36:33
  Not know about yourself that you might want to all of a sudden
• 36:37
  you're like,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to try that.
• 36:39
  Or some things you live through the experience of the book and
• 36:43
  you're like,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: I like that fantasy in the book.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't necessarily need to live that in real life.
• 36:49
  Yeah,
• 36:50
  you don't necessarily need to put your hand on the oven to see
• 36:53
  that it's hot.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can maybe live vicariously through it.
• 36:57
  But I think it does take a little bit of a healthier
• 37:01
  relationship to be able to be
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: open about this stuff.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Behind closed doors, I think everybody's relationship is different.
• 37:08
  It's not what you see out when you go meet them for coffee or
• 37:11
  drinks or whatever.
• 37:12
  So the relationship does need to have a bit of that intimacy
• 37:16
  and tenderness already
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: to where they have the comfort to open up and talk about these things.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: I easily could have just discounted this stuff and been like,
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not interested in that.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is just smut or whatever like that.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm the type of guy, I love the creativity, you know, like...
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: You were reading all kinds of stuff like,
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: this monster,
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: that alien,
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: like this creature.
• 37:40
  There was like phases of going like there's cats and dogs and
• 37:44
  then there's like,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: undead and there's wraiths and,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 37:49
  no uh what do they call it necrophilia or anything like that
• 37:53
  nothing too extreme
• 37:54
  but the creativity was there it's um you know it's just all
• 37:59
  over the place and you
• 38:00
  know part of what i do every day is creativity so it's just
• 38:04
  nice to see it in
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: another form it's inspiring yeah and and so you know i think with a good
• 38:10
  relationship i think with healthy boundaries but also
• 38:14
  invitation i i think that
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: these
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: help initiate that conversation quite a bit.
• 38:20
  And that's where I think it would be interesting in
• 38:23
  relationships if the partners
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: could talk about it,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: maybe even read to each other if they like to read,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: to bring that up because it could open up a lot of conversations.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: You and I have had very interesting conversations lately.
• 38:39
  as i read these books sometimes i'll be asking you things
• 38:42
  what's your opinion
• 38:43
  what's your take and or sharing with you the strange monsters i
• 38:48
  read about and
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: their so-called superpowers yeah yeah or just like where they come from
• 38:53
  historically or mythologically that kind of stuff i find that
• 38:57
  really interesting
• 38:58
  and just like how the the creative span on some of these uh you
• 39:02
  know undead like a
• 39:04
  a lich or something like that never thought you'd talk about
• 39:07
  liches you know
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, yeah, I know a little bit about that.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we should say here that you used to play Dungeons and Dragons.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: I did for a long time.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm into that whole, you know, mythological stuff.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: More of like the nitty gritty and like the the the spell casting and,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: the alchemy of it,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: rather than I would think that the mythological roots that you have.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I would ask you, what's this monster?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it would take you back to your Dungeons and Dragons days.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: as we're wrapping up,
• 39:41
  is there anything about having read these scenes that stood out
• 39:44
  to you that you
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: want to share?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: I did make some notes on all these books,
• 39:49
  and I found that there's a lot of these scenes where there's a
• 39:57
  playful flirtation,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: or there's a power imbalance.
• 40:01
  Like,
• 40:02
  you have the power,
• 40:03
  I have the power,
• 40:03
  and there's a certain sexiness to that.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's a certain drive and motivation there.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think with every one of them,
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: it's this testing of boundaries and then going right up to the edge.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, walking right up to the threshold.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: To use the word.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Insert bell effect here.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: You walk right up to that edge, but you don't just leap off the cliff.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's more about finding that...
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: comfort in the edge and outside of your comfort zone.
• 40:37
  It's going right up to that,
• 40:40
  oh,
• 40:40
  is this scary or is this going to be amazing?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: And having trust in your partner to not push those limits too far.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want them to push you into a way that you're like,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: stop,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: because I'm scared what's going to happen next.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: But you're like,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm excited to what's going to happen next.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: And your partner is like slow going with it.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not just going to jam it in.
• 41:07
  You're going to,
• 41:08
  you know,
• 41:08
  slowly caress your way,
• 41:10
  you know,
• 41:11
  to the finish line.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's kind of romancing the threshold.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: It is romancing.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's a bit of foreplay.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's a caressing to the edge.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I was right.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like pushing the boundary, but not plunging into darkness kind of thing.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: I find that a lot of these characters...
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: They want to be completely obliterated with pleasure.
• 41:32
  Like they want their ultimate desires and they want their
• 41:36
  partner to learn them.
• 41:38
  But they're so nervous about vulnerability and that's kind of
• 41:42
  how the story develops.
• 41:45
  So,
• 41:45
  you know,
• 41:46
  like right up on that threshold or right up on that precipice
• 41:49
  of the darkness.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then...
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully at the end,
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: you both hand in hand,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: you just Thelma and Louise,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: but you survive the jump and then you just go in together.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thelma and Louise, but with a happy ending, right?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: With a happy ending, yeah.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Not destroying your lives.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not destroying, yeah.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: But you're in it together.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're partners, you know, forever.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so they can finally, if you will, cross the threshold.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there was a lot of, yeah, like I mentioned, the power of balance.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of this object of desire.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it had to do with the books that you actually had me read.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it's this magical fantasy where it's so big.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's so larger than life.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it not being...
• 42:37
  it it's the romance it's the desire it's the affection it's the
• 42:44
  the whole scene
• 42:45
  like everything is so fantastic that it completely envelops you
• 42:50
  into the fantasy
• 42:52
  and i think that's a good job by the writers i think that's why
• 42:56
  these books are so
• 42:57
  successful and why they capture as many people as they do
• 43:00
  because it's just totally
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: immersive
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: even the little chapters that you had me read,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: the little passages and stuff like,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I could see how people really get into this.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, there were times like I'm just I'm turning the pages.
• 43:14
  I'm burning through it because I'm like,
• 43:15
  wow,
• 43:16
  this is really well written.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good to know.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was impressed that you read them pretty quickly.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, this is a long passage.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not, you know, college level vocabulary or anything.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a technical book,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: but I like this idea that it's very much what I think about romancing the
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: threshold.
• 43:38
  That change doesn't have to be like you don't have to be yanked
• 43:42
  through it.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: I like the word you use, caress your way towards it.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then together you can take that leap.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the one thing I've noticed in a lot of these books,
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: with the monster especially,
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: but the male character,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: is that they're both the catalyst of the fear,
• 44:03
  but as well as the catalyst of the transformation and the
• 44:08
  opening up for the female
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: character of her life.
• 44:12
  own desires yeah she might be more protected maybe she doesn't
• 44:17
  know herself well or
• 44:19
  she's insecure but with the relationship with that character
• 44:23
  the masculine
• 44:25
  character becomes both the the change agent and the the
• 44:30
  torchbearer that leads her
• 44:32
  to that transformation her opening up and while he's in that
• 44:36
  with her he's also
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: transformed and
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: He becomes perhaps more at peace with both of his sides,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: the vulnerable side as well as the warrior side.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they both get transformed.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: It could be it breaks down the stereotype a little bit for the masculine.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely seems that...
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like in some of these,
• 44:59
  there's a whole group of these masculine and they're kind of
• 45:04
  picking these
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: different women and the women are taught how to,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's almost like a court of regency or something like a,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: like the manners kind of school,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: they're taught how to do X,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Y,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: and Z.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Where these men,
• 45:19
  these masculine or these masculine creatures have done this
• 45:23
  hundreds of times in
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: the past,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: because,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: there's some kind of fantastic being that lives for thousands of years.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: They've done it, you know, for hundreds and hundreds of different women.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: This one is the special one.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this one is the one that says, oh...
• 45:38
  You're not just another one that I see every year,
• 45:42
  every season or whatever.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is now a special one.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to change my point of view.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to change my way from here on out.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've met that faded soulmate.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've met the one that understands me or the one that...
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: I truly desire, you know, like I'm teaching these women how to desire.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm teaching this feminine how to desire.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: And now, oh, my masculine desire is finally met kind of thing.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a little bit about that.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: She's the one.
• 46:13
  She's going to be the one who's going to transform the quote
• 46:16
  unquote beast.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: She kind of.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:21
  She'll grab that attention and do things maybe that are
• 46:26
  unexpected or not as the stereotype.
• 46:30
  Like maybe they'll talk back a little bit or maybe they'll
• 46:33
  maybe they'll take the
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: control when that was unexpected when they're not supposed to.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they will break the rules in some way.
• 46:41
  Yeah,
• 46:42
  they'll break the rules,
• 46:43
  kind of advancing the dialogue and the narrative.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it also acts as a bit of that growth,
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: and it's just the slow baby steps towards them being together,
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: overall.
• 46:57
  Okay,
• 46:57
  so one of the ways I like to wrap up the podcast is to have a
• 47:03
  few rapid-fire questions.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Actor studio style.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I will try.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: So go with your gut.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: I won't look at the questions.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Don't look at the questions.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Cause since we're filming in my office, right?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what's one thing big or small that always feels romantic to you?
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 47:25
  I think it's the little tenderness of like writing notes or the
• 47:29
  texts of like,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hey,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge you or I thought about you in just this little way.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing this and you popped into my mind kind of thing,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: or like the little,
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hey,
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: how you doing?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just calling out of the blue with that kind of stuff.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Mm.
• 47:47
  If you had to name a threshold moment in your life,
• 47:52
  what's the first one that comes to mind?
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think we both know what that is.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: But they don't know.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was a teenager, I got into some trouble.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that really set my life in a different direction.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: And without that, yeah, my life would have been very different.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it put me on a much better path.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned my lesson.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that was a long time ago.
• 48:16
  And I think,
• 48:18
  yeah,
• 48:18
  that is probably the most important thing that has happened in
• 48:22
  my life.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, you know, a bad thing of totally of my own doing.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not a victim in any way or anything like that.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I did some crime and I did my time and I learned a lot from it.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:38
  Knowing you,
• 48:39
  what I do appreciate is that you didn't turn that into a victim
• 48:44
  element.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: You saw the way and you learned the lesson.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I wear it as a badge kind of thing.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, yeah, I was this bad boy.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was so crazy when I was a kid.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, but I got caught and that kind of sucks.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: so I totally wear it as a badge of honor,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: like having gone through that totally.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: You took the lesson.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it like it completely changed me.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm super glad, like for everybody that came into my life.
• 49:13
  And even those in the justice system,
• 49:16
  you know,
• 49:16
  that threw the book at me.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it made a big change.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that, yeah, that completely changed everything for me.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what's one risk you took in your life that paid off?
• 49:31
  I think moving from one city to another to,
• 49:35
  you know,
• 49:35
  to be with you,
• 49:36
  I think that really did.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was a bit of a discomfort, but it was like, let's do it.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: What have I got to lose?
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's either this way or continue with the unhappiness I've got.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it was really difficult and uncomfortable.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, change rarely is, you know, comes with a smiling face.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you're talking about moving down here to be with me.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: We had a long distance relationship for years.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we did.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, just taking that plunge and saying, let's do it.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to not necessarily throw caution to the wind,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: but we're going to make an educated guess here and take that risk.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it paid off.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've been down here ever since.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we got married.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we got married.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 50:29
  what's your to-go comfort watch or maybe it's a song or a music
• 50:34
  style that you tend
• 50:36
  to go towards when you're going through a transition or a
• 50:40
  change in your life,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: big or small?
• 50:43
  I guess it's probably like it might be some music or something
• 50:47
  or like something
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: from the 90s,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: when I was kind of coming into my own.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be one of those electronic music CDs that I have,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: or it might be something from those transformative years around there.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing really specific.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't...
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have too many ups and downs anymore.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like we tend to lead a pretty even keel life.
• 51:13
  And so we're not going through these terrible ups and downs
• 51:17
  where I need some kind
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: of relaxing or like to go to some kind of something like that.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm just thinking like,
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: changing jobs or going through that kind of transition.
• 51:29
  Sometimes you find yourself gravitating towards something when
• 51:33
  you're in those
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: first few months in a new job.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess maybe it's like a quiet meditation then.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: So just kind of being with myself, being in my own thoughts.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have something in my ear.
• 51:47
  I don't have a television show that's like a lot of people like
• 51:50
  to watch the same
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: series over and over and over again because it's a comfort zone.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really have that.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: I like to be in my own head.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's comfortable to me.
• 52:03
  But it can get a little crazy,
• 52:05
  you know,
• 52:06
  sometimes whenever it's overwhelming or whatever.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I prefer to just kind of have that quiet contemplation.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: if you could step into a story that could be a myth,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: a book or a movie for one night,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: which one would it be and why?
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 52:24
  I guess I would—I mean,
• 52:26
  if I could go into one of the Star Wars movies,
• 52:28
  that would be great.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: If I could be,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: in the Jedi Academy or something,
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be really great.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I do have this strange fantasy,
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: this strange calling towards a lot of that dystopian stuff,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: like 1984 or Brave New World or something like that,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: or even,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Walking Dead.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's kind of a sick joke we have, you know, like—
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be around after the destruction.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want to help rebuild the world in that terrible way.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you know, probably something like that.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: There is a little bit of demented.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's some recent shows on like Apple TV.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's one where they live in a big silo.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the name.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I kind of like that stuff.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: I like to see how those controlled environments work.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I kind of like that dystopian stuff.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: What is it about it?
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's how a society can reach that.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting to me on like how the whole populace is able to...
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: whether of their fault of their own or not,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: to come to this point to where like there are things that are outlawed,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: like in this one show,
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: you're not allowed to have things from the before times,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 53:47
  a storybook about New York City or even like a Polaroid camera
• 53:51
  or something like
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: because it's
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: That is a life that is gone.
• 53:55
  And we don't want people to think about what was you want
• 53:59
  people to think about
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: what is because their life is pretty terrible.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they can't go outside.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's dirty and gritty.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, there's restricted.
• 54:09
  Food allowances,
• 54:10
  you know,
• 54:11
  everything is like,
• 54:13
  there's never going to be any better.
• 54:14
  And they're constantly talking about like,
• 54:16
  oh,
• 54:17
  we're going to be able to get outside one day.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the powers that be know that that's not true.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they control the narrative.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: They control how people go about their daily lives.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like growing up that we could never do that.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: But things change.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just interesting to see where that came from.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where did George Orwell get this stuff?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, where did Aldous Huxley come up with this stuff?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: like all that science fiction about like these societies,
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: like a Logan's Run kind of thing.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did that even come about?
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:49
  going into one of those worlds would be fun just to be a fly on
• 54:53
  the wall to see how
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: things actually work.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if that were so-called reality.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's interesting to me is that everything about that,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: for me,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: I hate the dystopian stuff,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: so I can't even tolerate watching it.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, not at all.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:10
  But I kind of feel like I want to study that so that you can
• 55:15
  see any type of red
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: flag that might lead us there.
• 55:19
  You know,
• 55:19
  like we talk a lot about when you're riding a bike,
• 55:21
  you don't stare at the tree.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you're going to ride right into the tree.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: you look at the path in front of you,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: and you notice that,
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: if I stare at that tree,
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to hit the tree.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the red flag.
• 55:36
  That's the thing,
• 55:38
  you know,
• 55:38
  that all of these dystopian things talk about.
• 55:41
  You know,
• 55:41
  there are those red flags that we can watch out for in our
• 55:44
  normal life.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: Even in like the Star Wars universe,
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of stuff that's it goes without saying,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: they don't even get into that because it's not that type of story.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: But there there's a lot about,
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: the world,
• 55:56
  this fantasy world where there's a little bit of magic or
• 55:59
  there's a little bit of
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: grime.
• 56:00
  And it's just interesting to see how it got there or how it
• 56:03
  would be to live in those worlds.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's definitely... Well, there actually is dystopian romances.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's a subgenre.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's probably some Star Wars stuff and some other fan fiction,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: where they have romances and they fight,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: the bad guys and use their lightsabers in interesting ways.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's one series that I've seen.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to read it because it's dystopian, but...
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: The women fall in love with the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, great.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: So each book is one of them.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, smelly.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: Pestilence, death, you know.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's not on my to be read list.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: Any parting words?
• 56:54
  I would say it's good for everybody to probably take a look at
• 56:57
  this stuff,
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: just as much as it is anything else.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't discount it just because it's not your thing.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't necessarily have to give it a try, but don't shoot it down.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think that this kind of stuff,
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: it's always good to understand everybody's perspective,
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: even though you may not agree with it.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is just another creative outlet that people have.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's good to just talk about it.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 57:27
  Thank you for listening to this special anniversary week
• 57:30
  episode of Romancing the Threshold.
• 57:32
  Having Jason step into my world of romance novels was both
• 57:36
  tender and eye-opening,
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: and I hope you enjoyed hearing his perspective as much as I did.
• 57:43
  What I love about this conversation is that it reminded me how
• 57:46
  every relationship
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: has many of its own thresholds to be crossed,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: even after so many years.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: Moments when we are invited to cross into each other's worlds,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: when it feels unfamiliar and uncomfortable,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: and yet we go together.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's where the discoveries happen and where connection deepens.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: As we celebrate our wedding anniversary,
• 58:11
  I'm grateful for the many ways Jason and I continue to meet
• 58:15
  each other at those
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: edges.
• 58:17
  And I hope this episode sparks reflection on the thresholds in
• 58:21
  your own life and relationships.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed today's episode,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love for you to share it with a friend,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: leave a review,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: or subscribe so you don't miss what's ahead.
• 58:34
  Until next time,
• 58:36
  may you keep romancing your own thresholds,
• 58:39
  one step at a time.