Latest / BOB DOLE : 1995 Clinton's Comeback / Episode 473 The Fall of Bob Packwood (Part 7) 24 hours (D) The Aftermath Dole 14

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Episode 473 The Fall of Bob Packwood (Part 7) 24 hours (D) The Aftermath Dole 14 · BOB DOLE : 1995 Clinton's Comeback

0:27
SPEAKER_13: So I now announce that I will resign from the Senate.
0:32
SPEAKER_13: And I leave this institution.
0:35
SPEAKER_13: Not with knowledge.
0:38
SPEAKER_13: But with love.
0:42
SPEAKER_10: Good luck.
0:44
SPEAKER_10: Godspeed.
0:45
SPEAKER_10: Pressure for Packwood to resign built since yesterday when the Ethics Committee uh recommendation came down.
0:51
SPEAKER_10: The pressure increased this morning when committee members released 40 pounds of documents and evidence against Packwood.
0:58
SPEAKER_10: The committee's Republican chairman, Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, went before reporters this morning trying to demolish Packwood's claim of being treated unfairly.
1:08
SPEAKER_14: At various points in this case, there were those out there who wondered whether the Ethics Committee would get it in the Packwood case.
1:16
SPEAKER_14: Well, there can be no doubt today that the Ethics Committee got it concerning the gross and persistent misconduct demonstrated by Senator Bob Packwood.
1:27
SPEAKER_14: First of all, no workplace in America ought to tolerate the kind of offensive, degrading sexual misconduct that the Ethics Committee finds Senator Packwood.
2:13
SPEAKER_25: Senator Packwood was first elected to the Senate in 1968 and chaired the Finance Committee, which was which was managing the welfare reform bill, which is on the floor right now.
2:24
SPEAKER_25: Politics rich in the blood of the Packwoods.
2:27
SPEAKER_25: His great-grandfather was a member of the 1857 Oregon Constitutional Convention.
2:32
SPEAKER_25: A couple of faxes here.
2:33
SPEAKER_25: As a Democrat, I certainly will not miss Mr.
2:36
SPEAKER_25: Packwood, as this will do nothing more than to derail Republican agendas as he was the chairperson of the Five Minutes Finance Committee.
2:44
SPEAKER_25: However, I was tired of seeing other people's personal lives being put under the microscope, who, in their right mind, would not want to run for public office.
2:51
SPEAKER_25: They would have to be crazy.
2:53
SPEAKER_25: That from a gentleman in San Diego, California.
2:56
SPEAKER_25: Back to the phone calls.
2:57
SPEAKER_25: Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
2:58
SPEAKER_25: You're next.
2:59
SPEAKER_27: Yes, I feel that Senator Packwood was really treated unfairly because he wasn't able to face his accusers.
3:08
SPEAKER_27: And also think that Senator uh Barbara Box of California and very liberal women's organizations led this fight to get Senator Packwood to resign.
3:21
SPEAKER_27: I would like to know if now they're gonna face the president and his accusers in Arkansas and also pre uh Senator Kennedy.
3:31
SPEAKER_27: Why aren't they fighting against the president?
3:35
SPEAKER_27: Thank you.
3:36
SPEAKER_25: We now go to a phone call in Little Rock, Arkansas.
3:38
SPEAKER_25: You're next, please.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Hi.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: Um most of the other colonists have stolen my fender, but uh I want to say that uh since Pinkwood resigned, which is undeminently from a threat of impeachment, probably.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you read the Paul Jones brief, it's horrible.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I think they uh should start impeaching him for the President of the United States if they're gonna make if they're gonna make Pankwood resign over this, which is not as bad as the stuff I read in the uh the Paul Jones case.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: And I want to also mention, of course, that the course always has a dead body, and of course that's okay with a visa Democrat, you know, they can do stuff like that.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: But I just think that there's a huge double standard, and I would really love to see it.
4:25
SPEAKER_25: Appreciate your phone call.
4:27
SPEAKER_25: The uh vacancy of the Senate seat in Oregon now apparently is uh up to when the governor sets a special election.
4:35
SPEAKER_25: And uh John Kittsaber, the Democrat governor of uh of Oregon, will have to set that uh sometime in the next uh couple of months, and it will be a special election where both parties can nominate a candidate and then run in a regular special election sometime uh in the next year or so.
4:52
SPEAKER_25: Senator Backwood's seat was not up again until 1998.
4:55
SPEAKER_25: He was first elected to the Senate in 1968.
4:58
SPEAKER_25: Return to the phone calls, Portland, Oregon.
5:01
SPEAKER_18: Uh yes.
5:02
SPEAKER_18: Um, I've heard uh listened to everything uh going on this afternoon and also trying to switch to local news and what's being said here in the state of Oregon.
5:13
SPEAKER_18: Listened this afternoon to a statewide local uh call-in show.
5:18
SPEAKER_18: I want the people of this country to know that the people of Oregon uh many, many overwhelming numbers of people in Oregon support Bob Packwood.
5:28
SPEAKER_18: We realize what's been happening has been highly political, and uh there are many of us that would uh vote for him again.
5:37
SPEAKER_18: So uh I I just want people in the country to realize that uh we're still supporting him back here uh by large numbers, and uh we feel that a lot of what has been happening uh has been brought on by some uh disoriental uh political opponents of Bob Hackwood.
5:58
SPEAKER_18: But we'll support him.
5:59
SPEAKER_18: I would vote for him again.
6:01
SPEAKER_18: I believe in him and uh think he's a great senator.
6:04
SPEAKER_18: Thank you.
6:05
SPEAKER_25: Return to the phone calls Columbia, Tennessee.
6:10
SPEAKER_25: Hello?
6:10
SPEAKER_25: Yes, you're on the air.
6:12
SPEAKER_25: Yes, you might want to turn your television set down there, please.
6:17
SPEAKER_19: Pardon me?
6:17
SPEAKER_25: You might want to turn your television down, please.
6:21
SPEAKER_19: Turn it down.
6:28
SPEAKER_19: Okay.
6:28
SPEAKER_19: Go ahead.
6:30
SPEAKER_19: It's a sad day when we have to have a man as smart and with as much responsibility as Senator Packwood being expelled, or maybe a kiss is just a kiss.
6:45
SPEAKER_19: Has the ethics committee never heard of a kiss?
6:49
SPEAKER_19: I really feel sorry for the people who expelled him.
6:54
SPEAKER_19: And may God have mercy on all of us.
6:57
SPEAKER_19: Thank you.
6:58
SPEAKER_04: I voted for Packwood and Hatfield Republicans for less number of years.
7:02
SPEAKER_04: I was a little disappointed in the uh allegations, but I think Packwood deserves his stay in court.
7:11
SPEAKER_04: I am very happy that he resigned, saved the taxpayers and the work that needs to be done in Congress a lot of time and money.
7:20
SPEAKER_04: And I would probably I would like to have seen him get his day in court.
7:25
SPEAKER_04: I guess that's about it.
7:27
SPEAKER_04: Thanks.
7:28
SPEAKER_25: For the rest of the evening, Hank Brown, Republican of Colorado, on the floor now on the Senate.
7:34
SPEAKER_02: Only hours after claiming his decision to fight was irrevocable, Packwood quit.
7:39
SPEAKER_13: It is my duty to resign.
7:44
SPEAKER_13: It is the honorable thing to do for this country for the Senate.
7:53
SPEAKER_13: So I now announce that I will resign from the Senate, and I leave this institution, not with knowledge, but with love.
8:08
SPEAKER_29: Good luck.
8:10
SPEAKER_29: Godspeed.
8:11
SPEAKER_02: Some of Packwood's friends lauded his distinguished 27-year career and expressed relief that his nightmare was over.
8:19
SPEAKER_14: I rise to give these few remarks with a sad heart.
8:23
SPEAKER_15: For I hurt with Senator Packwood.
8:25
SPEAKER_15: Let us not congratulate nor celebrate a thing today.
8:29
SPEAKER_15: This is a moment for grieving.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: But all day, Packwood was told by friends that the vote to expel him would be overwhelming.
8:37
SPEAKER_02: This morning, the top Republican and Democrat on the Ethics Committee condemned Packwood in unusually blunt terms, accusing him of illegal and reprehensible conduct.
8:48
SPEAKER_14: The committee has heard enough.
8:50
SPEAKER_14: The Senate has heard enough.
8:53
SPEAKER_14: The public has heard enough.
8:56
SPEAKER_14: The evidence is compelling.
8:58
SPEAKER_14: And it seems to me the appropriate response would be resignation.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: Both senators specifically challenged Packwood's claim that he was at worst guilty of over-eagerly kissing women.
9:10
SPEAKER_14: He used physical coercion against his victims, frightening them and causing them severe emotional distress.
9:17
SPEAKER_36: It isn't 17 women who did this to Senator Packwood or brought him down.
9:22
SPEAKER_36: It was his own conduct.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: What's more, the committee released more than 10,000 documents, including embarrassing excerpts from Packwood's diary.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: In them, the senator claims to have had sexual encounters with 22 members of his staff, some in his office, some described in explicit detail.
9:39
SPEAKER_02: He wrote, She has the most stunning figure, Big Breast.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: Needless to say, I did not stop myself.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: He also wrote that it was his Christian duty to make love to one staffer.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Even more potentially troublesome, the committee laid out how diaries were altered by Packwood in what was deemed an illegal effort to cover up and obstruct the Senate investigation.
10:01
SPEAKER_02: The matter was referred to the Justice Department for possible criminal charges.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: That means Packwood's problems may not be over.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: The last time a senator resigned in the face of expulsion was in 1982, when Democrat Harrison Williams quit after being convicted of bribery.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: Throughout Packwood's ordeal, members of the Senate felt they too were on trial.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: They hope Packwood's forced departure sends the message that when it comes to sexual misconduct, the Senate finally does get it.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: Lisa Myers, NBC News, The Capitol.
10:34
SPEAKER_31: Packwood is a Republican.
10:45
SPEAKER_31: In Los Angeles and the U.S.
10:47
SPEAKER_31: It's not easy.
10:49
SPEAKER_35: Hasn't been easy.
10:51
SPEAKER_09: Packwood's colleagues praised his years as an important player on health, taxes, and ironically, women's issues.
10:58
SPEAKER_09: And although they are glad to see him go, they felt a pang knowing how much the Senate has meant to this paradoxical man.
11:06
SPEAKER_09: John Cochran, ABC News Capitol Hill.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: The scandal that has brought Senator Packwood down was about to break just before his last election in 1992, but the Washington Post held up the story until after the election, a very narrow victory for Packwood.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Oregonians have been re-examining their commitment to him ever since.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: On this day of his resignation, ABC's Brian Rooney reports from Portland.
11:29
SPEAKER_34: It's a great day in history.
11:31
SPEAKER_34: Bob Packwood finally going down the drain.
11:34
SPEAKER_34: Kind of a sad day for Oregon.
11:36
SPEAKER_05: Even as Oregonians debated the fairness of what happened, the hard reality for Senator Packwood was that his political base of 27 years disappeared.
11:45
SPEAKER_05: From the state's largest newspaper to the governor, power brokers called for Packwood to quit.
11:50
SPEAKER_12: This has gone on for a very long time.
11:51
SPEAKER_12: I don't believe a senator can any longer effectively represent uh Oregon.
11:56
SPEAKER_05: Even among Republicans, Packwood had few vocal defenders.
11:59
SPEAKER_05: One former staff member attributes Packwood's problems to political opponents.
12:11
SPEAKER_05: But the efforts of supporters were eclipsed by the accusations of the women who charged Packwood with sexual harassment.
12:17
SPEAKER_05: One is Gail Bailer, a former restaurant hostess, who said Packwood made a physical advance.
12:22
SPEAKER_03: Nobody ever wanted revenge.
12:24
SPEAKER_03: We just wanted justice, wanted him to be accountable for his actions.
12:29
SPEAKER_05: Much of what Packwood is accused of occurred more than two decades ago.
12:33
SPEAKER_05: But today, the senator's actions finally caught up with it.
12:37
SPEAKER_05: Brian Rooney, ABC News, Portland.
12:40
SPEAKER_13: Senator Packwood decides to get out before he's kicked out.
12:44
SPEAKER_13: It is my duty to resign.
12:49
SPEAKER_13: It is the honorable thing to do.
12:52
SPEAKER_11: A May quarter century in the United States Senate and three years of trying to fight accusations about sexual and other official misconduct, Senator Bob Packwood of Oregon today gave up, gave in, and said he is getting out of the U.S.
13:07
SPEAKER_11: Senate.
13:07
SPEAKER_11: The Oregon Republican, one of the Senate's most knowledgeable veterans, resigned under fire rather than face an almost certain vote by his colleagues to expel him.
13:16
SPEAKER_11: In a moment, we will talk live with Senator Packwood.
13:19
SPEAKER_11: But first, CBS News correspondent Phil Jones, who first broke the Packwood resignation story this afternoon, has the details.
13:26
SPEAKER_15: Senator Bob Packwood came to the floor today to end his three-year political nightmare.
13:32
SPEAKER_13: It is my duty to resign.
13:37
SPEAKER_13: It is the honorable thing to do for this country.
13:43
SPEAKER_13: For the Senate.
13:46
SPEAKER_13: So I now announce that I will resign from the Senate.
13:51
SPEAKER_13: And I leave this institution, not with malice, but with love.
14:01
SPEAKER_29: Good luck.
14:03
SPEAKER_15: Godspeed.
14:04
SPEAKER_15: Earlier today, the ethics committee had literally unloaded on Packwood, even weighing the evidence.
14:11
SPEAKER_15: 40 pounds.
14:12
SPEAKER_14: These were not merely stolen kisses, as Senator Packwood has claimed.
14:17
SPEAKER_15: They counted every page.
14:19
SPEAKER_15: 10,145.
14:22
SPEAKER_14: There was a habitual pattern of aggressive, blatantly sexual advances.
14:28
SPEAKER_15: The committee report accused Packwood of deliberately altering and destroying relevant portions of his diary.
14:35
SPEAKER_14: If this were a criminal court, Senator Packwood would likely receive 10 to 16 months in prison.
14:42
SPEAKER_15: In fact, the Ethics Committee voted to refer all its evidence to the Justice Department.
14:47
SPEAKER_23: By any standard, in any workplace in the United States of America, he would have been fired, and I voted to fire Senator Packwood from the United States Senate.
14:58
SPEAKER_15: 18 instances of alleged sexual misconduct were cited.
15:02
SPEAKER_15: One Oregon campaign worker said Packwood grabbed her ponytail and gave her a big wet kiss with his tongue in her mouth.
15:10
SPEAKER_15: She did not smell or taste alcohol.
15:12
SPEAKER_15: After a physical struggle, the senator said, if not today, someday.
15:18
SPEAKER_15: Today there were hugs on the Senate floor.
15:21
SPEAKER_15: It was okay.
15:23
SPEAKER_15: Bob Packwood knew he didn't have the votes to block expulsion.
15:27
SPEAKER_15: So after a quarter of a century, he leads the Senate with all the benefits and an annual pension of about$90,000 a year.
15:36
SPEAKER_11: And Bill Jones, thanks.
15:39
SPEAKER_11: And joining us now on Capitol Hill is United States Senator Bob Packwood of Oregon.
15:44
SPEAKER_11: Senator, thanks for doing this.
15:46
SPEAKER_11: Thanks for being with us.
15:48
SPEAKER_11: Why did you do it?
15:49
SPEAKER_11: Which is to say, as late as certainly last night, possibly this morning, you said you would fight it, wanted to fight it and would fight it.
15:56
SPEAKER_11: Why did you finally quit?
15:58
SPEAKER_13: Because Dan, I uh I finally said uh it is the decent thing to do, the honorable thing to do.
16:04
SPEAKER_13: Uh if we were going to go through a vote in the Senate, I was going to have to put the the the Senate through a dishonorable process, and I I just didn't want to do that.
16:13
SPEAKER_13: I love I love the institution too much.
16:15
SPEAKER_13: Uh I will miss it, but there is another life, and it's time to move on.
16:19
SPEAKER_11: And what are your plans now?
16:20
SPEAKER_11: After 25 years plus in the Senate, what do you plan to do?
16:25
SPEAKER_13: You know, Dan, uh I've been in the Senate so long I hadn't given it any thought.
16:29
SPEAKER_13: We all say we're going to write, uh, whether I'll write or not, I don't know.
16:32
SPEAKER_13: But for the moment, I just want to uh tidy up my affairs, clean up my desk, take care of modest and minor arrangements, maybe take a couple of days or a couple of weeks vacation, and then decide.
16:41
SPEAKER_13: But I really uh I really haven't given it exact thought.
16:44
SPEAKER_13: In the few seconds we have left, biggest regret biggest what, Dan?
16:49
SPEAKER_13: Biggest regret?
16:50
SPEAKER_13: Oh, the biggest regret is I will be gone at the very time when we are going to make the first major effort at trying to balance the budget, uh, and I would have been a major part of that.
17:01
SPEAKER_13: My committee would have had the issues of Medicare and Medicaid and welfare.
17:05
SPEAKER_13: I would have liked to have been a part of that, but uh but no one is indispensable to the process.
17:10
SPEAKER_13: Senator Bob Packwood.
17:11
SPEAKER_13: Thanks.
17:12
SPEAKER_13: Thank you, Ms.
17:12
SPEAKER_13: Retter.
17:13
SPEAKER_21: At the OGC in Congress, among the issues on the line, tax policy and welfare reform.
17:19
SPEAKER_21: My guest, the former chief of staff of the Senate Finance Committee, Florence O'Donnell, when Moneyline continues.
17:42
SPEAKER_21: Thank you.
17:42
SPEAKER_21: What does this do for the Republican revolution in Washington?
17:46
SPEAKER_21: Does it speed it up, slow it down?
17:48
SPEAKER_21: Does it make any difference?
17:49
SPEAKER_08: I think the impact will be very slight.
17:50
SPEAKER_08: The re the revolution, as it were, is already on track in the form of a budget resolution, which every Republican in the Senate has already voted for.
17:59
SPEAKER_08: What the Finance Committee has to do now is put in the specific changes that get you the amount of cuts, the amount of tax cuts, the amount of Medicare cuts, in precise language.
18:12
SPEAKER_08: That is a difficult uh but largely mechanical task.
18:16
SPEAKER_21: So it wouldn't make any difference whether it was Packwood or Roth that's feeding it through the committee.
18:22
SPEAKER_08: Bob Packwood could do it quicker, he could do it uh in a more surehanded way, but Bob Dole is going to be over the shoulder of Chairman Roth.
18:29
SPEAKER_08: Bob Dole is going to make sure this thing comes out the way Bob Dole wants it to come out.
18:33
SPEAKER_21: What about future things?
18:35
SPEAKER_21: You're talking about some things that have already taken shape.
18:38
SPEAKER_21: There are some things down the road that will come before this committee, like tax reform that hasn't taken shape.
18:44
SPEAKER_21: What difference will there be that a more conservative Senator Roth will be in charge of the committee rather than a more moderate Senator Packley?
18:52
SPEAKER_08: Well, you you might you might argue a more willing to experiment, Senator Roth.
18:56
SPEAKER_08: I think next year, when you start talking about flat taxes or revolutionary changes in the tax code, Bill Roth is going to be much more open to that than Bob Packwood would be.
19:07
SPEAKER_08: Bob Packwood would want to make sure that you didn't lose any revenue in that kind of change.
19:12
SPEAKER_08: He would be very demanding that you, as we say, pay for any tax changes that you make.
19:17
SPEAKER_08: And less likely.
19:20
SPEAKER_21: So we're more likely to have tax cuts under Roth.
19:23
SPEAKER_08: I think so.
19:24
SPEAKER_21: Very quickly, how will Senator Packwood go down in history as a senator?
19:29
SPEAKER_08: He was one of the great legislative mechanics of that body and one of the truly most accomplished chairmen ever to sit in the finance committee chair.
19:38
SPEAKER_08: There isn't a single program under the finance committee jurisdiction which gathers 98 percent of the government's revenue and spends 55 percent of it.
19:47
SPEAKER_08: There wasn't a single thing happening under that committee's jurisdiction that Bob Packwood didn't understand, didn't have a precise control of.
19:54
SPEAKER_21: Thank you very much, Lawrence O'Donnell, former uh Chief of Staff of the Senate Finance Committee.
20:00
SPEAKER_21: And coming up next, uh closer look at today's rally on Wall Street, including another rally.
20:05
SPEAKER_30: As you can see, this was um was a huge story uh and uh a big, uh big negative uh impact kind of event for Bob Dole.
20:18
SPEAKER_30: He's gonna he loses his chief lieutenant and the smartest member uh of the finance committee.
20:25
SPEAKER_30: And the only person really uh uh of of of equal status to Bob Packwood is Bob Dole.
20:30
SPEAKER_30: And so Bob Dole's now got to figure out this is in September of 1995, and he's gonna be presidential candidate, majority leader, and finance committee chairman.
20:39
SPEAKER_30: Granted, Bill Roth is gonna have the job, Dole's gonna help him, uh you know, he's got a lot of faith in Bill Roth, but it is not the same thing.
20:47
SPEAKER_30: And you hear that over and over and over again.
20:49
SPEAKER_30: And uh because you know, you might be wondering why we're doing all these episodes on this scandal, it's because it's a huge scandal, first off, uh uh uh just on on based on what he did uh he did do, but also because of who he was and what an important player he was.
21:05
SPEAKER_30: And I can't stress that enough as we get ready now to move on into the 1996 campaign, that this this was a blow to the agenda Bob Dole was pushing and and where they were going.
21:17
SPEAKER_30: Now, uh as you always say, the the show goes on, the the campaign goes on, uh, uh you know, life will move on without Bob Packwood, but uh it really did hurt Dole, along with the money Steve Forbes will spend, along with Bill Clinton, as you've seen him all this year maneuvering into a much stronger place.
21:38
SPEAKER_30: And as you can probably tell just by this show, you know, this show is Bob Dole, 1995, Clinton's comeback.
21:44
SPEAKER_30: But most of the shows have not a lot of the shows haven't had Bob Dole in them because when you're running, uh a lot of things are out of your control in these campaigns.
21:52
SPEAKER_30: And in Dole's case, and during this six-month period of time, Bill Clinton is emerging, and Dole's got all these other issues going on, chiefly among them this uh this lieutenant that had been so important to him crashing and burning.
22:05
SPEAKER_30: But um you're gonna hear now Mark Field and Paul Jigot, the editor of the Wall Street Journal, talking about this very thing, about its impact on Bob Dole, its impact on the country and the Republican agenda.
22:18
SPEAKER_30: And I think more so than even some of the reports we've done before, this is the first time you're gonna get to see a real discussion of the impact.
22:25
SPEAKER_30: Of this story on the Republican agenda and the 1996 campaign that is on the verge of beginning in earnest.
22:35
SPEAKER_20: Now political analysis of the Packwood resignation.
22:38
SPEAKER_20: It comes from our regular team of Shields and Gigot, syndicated columnist Mark Shields and Wall Street Journal columnist Paul Gigot.
22:45
SPEAKER_20: Well, mark a stunning 24 hours between the Ethics Committee recommendation and Packwood's resignation.
22:52
SPEAKER_20: What brought this all to a head so quickly?
22:54
SPEAKER_07: What brought it all to a head, Margaret, was that uh the Senate had the prospect of concluding the O.J.
23:00
SPEAKER_07: Simpson trial and then going to public hearings televised of three months uh of uh of Bob Packwood uh cross-examining uh two dozen Anita Hills uh of charges of uh of absolutely besmirching uh not not simply him, uh the institution, uh, but more dangerously, he became an embarrassment, more than an embarrassment, he became a threat.
23:24
SPEAKER_07: Threat to incumbents.
23:26
SPEAKER_07: Uh so uh the uh every that was the whole spectacle of it was that's right, it was going to hurt every incumbent and it provided a ready-made platform for every challenger next year to say, send me down there, it'll be different when I'm there.
23:40
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, in a s in a sense, uh uh uh he sealed his own fate when he asked for public hearings last week.
23:46
SPEAKER_06: I mean, it was a calculated gamble, I think.
23:48
SPEAKER_06: He had heard that uh they were going to at least censure him and probably cost him his chairmanship.
23:54
SPEAKER_06: And the difference in the Senate between a chairman and not a chairman is a difference, paraphrase Mark Twain, between a lightning and a lightning bug.
24:02
SPEAKER_06: And I think that would he he wanted he thought that with public hearings he might be able to buy some time, and instead, I think the Senate decided this was uh uh the ethics committee decided this was going to be an ordeal that would tarnish all of us, as Mark pointed out, and it was too much.
24:16
SPEAKER_20: Explain why the conventional wisdom, though, was so wrong about what was happening inside the ethics committee.
24:22
SPEAKER_20: I mean, when the ethics committee voted 3-3 along partisan lines not to hold public hearings, the assumption among Democrats, and I think among most of the press and the public was that the Republicans on this committee were going to protect Bob Packwood.
24:34
SPEAKER_20: Were they, and then they had a change of heart over the recess, or was everybody as wrong all along?
24:40
SPEAKER_07: What what uh was known, or what was learned anyway, uh during the recess was that the Republicans on the committee and the committee itself intended to stri strip him of his chairmanship and to censure him.
24:52
SPEAKER_07: A very severe penalty.
24:53
SPEAKER_07: Uh I mean, we're talking, as Calmly said, about the first senator be expelled uh since treason uh during the Civil War.
25:01
SPEAKER_07: I mean, uh whatever the charges against Bob Packwood, they don't quite constitute treason.
25:06
SPEAKER_07: Uh but when Packwood learned of this, Paul's absolutely right.
25:09
SPEAKER_07: He decided to up the ante.
25:11
SPEAKER_07: To hold on to his chairmanship by asking for public hearings, and the public hearings then would protract it, it would get into December, and that's when it really became not only dangerous to members of the Senate, but also to the whole uh presidential uh Republican pact, that this would somehow dominate the dialogue.
25:27
SPEAKER_20: But do you think members of the committee also felt any pressure over the recess?
25:30
SPEAKER_20: I was struck when I was at the Ross Perot convention in Dallas, a lot of the Perot voters were pointing to this case and saying, what's taking the Senate so long?
25:38
SPEAKER_06: Well, I think what happened with Barbara Boxer, frankly, was playing a high-stakes political game and it worked.
25:42
SPEAKER_06: I mean, she raised the ante by forcing the Democrat of California, by forcing the vote on public hearings.
25:49
SPEAKER_06: And when once that vote was taken, once the Republicans had rallied and said no public hearing, then it made a much more pressure on them to actually sanction him.
25:59
SPEAKER_06: And uh and besides, a lot of them were worried because if if if once this public record came out, they believed that there would be a lot of pressure if they didn't have done something to him.
26:09
SPEAKER_06: A slap on the wrist wasn't going to do.
26:10
SPEAKER_06: He had to have some punishment.
26:12
SPEAKER_06: And the really only two punishments you could have are the cost of the chairmanship or expulsion.
26:16
SPEAKER_07: Well, it's absolutely right, Margaret.
26:17
SPEAKER_07: For the for the past two weeks, Democrats of the Senate Campaign Committee have been hawking a poll around town uh taken in Kentucky, which showed a loss of one-third of Senator McConnell's popularity.
26:29
SPEAKER_07: They attributed in their analysis exclusively to his uh leading the fight for closed hearings and standing in opposition to Barbara Boxer and her uh her uh crusade or efforts to open up those hearings.
26:42
SPEAKER_20: So, what is going to be the impact with Bob Pack would go on on the Republicans on the Hill and their ability to move this incredibly ambitious agenda?
26:49
SPEAKER_06: Well, on the one hand, I think some of them think it's a relief.
26:52
SPEAKER_06: I mean, uh, if you would have had a a kind of their version of a three-month OJ trial or a six-month OJ trial, it would have interfered with what they were doing, or it would have blotted out whatever they were trying to do.
27:02
SPEAKER_06: So, in that sense, the the the this is a hit, however, because Packwood was a very effective finance committee chairman.
27:10
SPEAKER_06: In fact, I think he's the best member on that committee.
27:13
SPEAKER_06: Uh uh the only one who can really match him is Bob Dole, who is uh used to chair of the committee and is now uh uh the majority leader.
27:21
SPEAKER_06: There's nobody else who has the this kind of the strategic scope of how you deal with Medicare, how you deal with Medicaid, how you deal with taxes, and the instant recall on facts, the ability to argue in public, and the ability to put together a bill on the floor and make it stick.
27:36
SPEAKER_07: I think I I think the uh implications are in on this.
27:39
SPEAKER_07: I think that uh, first of all, uh right behind uh Bob Packwood is Bill Roth of Delaware, who at the age of 74 is uh commands neither the confidence nor the loyalty, nor the respect.
27:51
SPEAKER_07: Uh, I think Paul's right about Bob Dole.
27:53
SPEAKER_07: The two of them were the were the two strategic thinkers, certainly on the Republican side, in that committee.
27:59
SPEAKER_07: And the committee, its its importance cannot be overstated.
28:03
SPEAKER_07: We're talking about the entire fate, fortunate future of the Republican program.
28:08
SPEAKER_07: We're talking about a balanced budget.
28:10
SPEAKER_07: We're talking about cuts in Medicare or cuts in the growth of Medicare, of Medicaid, of welfare, of the whole everything.
28:17
SPEAKER_07: I mean, everything that's involved, and the tax cut taboo.
28:21
SPEAKER_07: Uh the you can say the fake, fortunate future of the Republican Congress as well as the fake, fortunate future of Bob Dole.
28:27
SPEAKER_07: What it means is that Bob Dole is going to have to come back and be de facto chairman of that committee.
28:32
SPEAKER_20: But is it a foregone conclusion that Bill Ross will say, Senator Ross will say he wants this chairmanship?
28:38
SPEAKER_20: Isn't there some scenario for him passing on this and somebody else getting it?
28:42
SPEAKER_06: Well, he's a chairman of another committee, uh the uh governmental affairs committee, um and uh so he he could say, I don't want it, but I think everyone wants that plum.
28:51
SPEAKER_06: I mean, this is uh this is the governmental affairs is a minor lease compared to finance.
28:54
SPEAKER_06: And he said he wants it, so I think that he probably will want it.
28:57
SPEAKER_06: But Mark's absolutely right.
28:59
SPEAKER_06: Uh uh Bob Dole is going to be the de facto chairman because there's one thing that is beginning to dominate, the that will dominate, I think, in the politics of a lot of the legislation in the Senate the next couple months, and that is that Bob Dole needs a victory to succeed in this presidential race.
29:15
SPEAKER_06: And he can't, he loses a chief lieutenant in Bob Packwood, he's gonna have to become his own lieutenant, and he's gonna have to run that committee.
29:21
SPEAKER_20: Which is gonna take a lot of valuable time.
29:23
SPEAKER_07: A lot of time.
29:24
SPEAKER_07: Margaret, ever since 1976, which is really the modern era of presidential politics, when for the first time federal law limited what a any individual contributed to a campaign, presidential campaign, or what any candidate could spend in a primary overall, time became more important than money.
29:39
SPEAKER_07: Ronald Reagan out of office, full-time candidate wins.
29:43
SPEAKER_07: Jimmy Carter, out of office, full-time candidate, win.
29:46
SPEAKER_07: Walter Mondale, out of office, full-time candidate, win.
29:50
SPEAKER_07: George Bush in office, full-time candidate, win.
29:53
SPEAKER_07: Okay, I mean the reality is candidate and loses.
29:56
SPEAKER_07: That's right.
29:57
SPEAKER_07: But I mean, but wins the nomination.
29:58
SPEAKER_07: That's right.
29:59
SPEAKER_07: And and uh, you know, we know that George Bush didn't really have a day job.
30:02
SPEAKER_07: I mean, he went to meetings where he didn't ask questions.
30:04
SPEAKER_07: But but the reality is that Bob Dole is trying to do the impossible.
30:07
SPEAKER_07: He's trying to do what Lyndon Johnson couldn't do and what Howard Baker.
30:10
SPEAKER_07: Two majority leaders before him were enormous political gifts, and that is to win the nomination uh at the same time as you'd be the Senate majority leader.
30:18
SPEAKER_07: And neither one of them had an am as ambitious a legislative program as Bob Dole does.
30:22
SPEAKER_07: Bob Dole has to has to be successful because he does he's not a it's not a candidacy based upon eloquence or charisma or or exciting bold new ideas.
30:32
SPEAKER_07: It's he's effective, he's a guy that gets things done, he's practical.
30:36
SPEAKER_07: And uh that's this is gonna be the test fund.
30:38
SPEAKER_07: The four months will determine, I think, the fate of the Republican Congress as well as Bob Dole's fate.
30:42
SPEAKER_20: But then i if Mark is right, is Bob Dole uh well advised to in fact spend the whole fall working on the legislative agenda?
30:51
SPEAKER_06: Well, I think he has no choice, but I mean if it i i he if he goes out and and and and the legislative agenda fails, then he fails.
30:57
SPEAKER_06: I mean, this is this is in a sense the first primary.
31:00
SPEAKER_06: This is his first primary in Congress and in the finance committee.
31:02
SPEAKER_06: And I think the key has always been would will Bob Dole be it's an 11 to 9 committee, it's the m one of the most narrow in the Senate.
31:09
SPEAKER_06: Can he get John Chaffee's vote to to to get that 11 to 9 narrow majority to get out onto the floor where they have a little bit more running room?
31:18
SPEAKER_06: And I think that frankly, Bob Dole's the persuasive ability was always going to be the key anyway.
31:23
SPEAKER_06: So in that sense, Packwood's departure doesn't mean as much as long as Dole is there to be able to stand in.
31:31
SPEAKER_07: Yes, he can get John Chafee.
31:32
SPEAKER_07: So I think John Chafee moderate Republicans from endorsed Bob Dole to say I think he can get his vote because he voted for a balanced budget amendment.
31:40
SPEAKER_07: I think when you go when you voted for the balance budget, and the the balanced budget as as pushed by uh that resolution, he was essentially saying, I'm with you all the way through.
31:49
SPEAKER_07: I think that you'll see on the right wing of the Republican Party, you'll see a vicious attack voted against Sheila Burke, his chief of staff.
31:56
SPEAKER_07: And I'll tell you why.
31:56
SPEAKER_07: Sheila, she's probably the most confident of it, and she's certainly one of the two most confident people in Capitol Hill.
32:02
SPEAKER_07: She has his total trust and total confidence, and he absolutely needs her at this point.
32:06
SPEAKER_07: I mean, she's got to be his eyes, ears, lungs, and limbs on that committee.
32:10
SPEAKER_07: The way if you're Phil Graham or you're the right wing of the Republican Party, and you want to submarine Dole, you should somehow get to discredit Sheila Burke.
32:17
SPEAKER_07: Look for a campaign against Sheila Burke.
32:19
SPEAKER_20: Now, losing Packwood in the Senate is also the loss of one of the 54 Republican votes.
32:25
SPEAKER_20: Do you have any, I know this is early, Paul, but do you have any idea how quickly someone might get elected in a special election to replace them, or does Dole have to figure he's got a 99-person Senate for now and 53 votes?
32:37
SPEAKER_06: For now, he has a 99-person Senate.
32:38
SPEAKER_06: I think it would be the earliest they could have an election would be about 90 days, perhaps, something like that.
32:42
SPEAKER_06: There's no they don't can't appoint somebody in uh in Oregon, the governor, the Democratic governor can't appoint somebody, so you will have a race, and uh uh I think you'll see a race between a couple of uh sitting members of Congress.
32:55
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I mean uh it Oregon is one of those great reform states where the governor is robbed of the greatest act of pollen.
33:01
SPEAKER_07: Any government has to appoint and make the United States sense.
33:04
SPEAKER_07: And because of damn Oregon's reform bill, John Kittable can't do it.
33:08
SPEAKER_20: But I mean, if if we get in a situation where the president is vetoing the Republican package, losing one vote is important.
33:15
SPEAKER_07: It is it is important.
33:17
SPEAKER_07: Uh and uh I think that Democrats are are confident.
33:20
SPEAKER_07: One Democrat said to me this afternoon, this is the Harris Walkford thing all over again.
33:24
SPEAKER_07: He's calling Harris Walkford's upset victory in 1991 in the Pennsylvania Senate race over over Governor Thornberg, heavily favored, that somehow this is gonna spark the Democrats' resurgence.
33:35
SPEAKER_07: They feel that they can they're confident they can win a Senate race uh in in Oregon because whoever the Republican nominee is is going to be carrying a sheet, some of the burden of Bob Packwood.
33:46
SPEAKER_06: Which is precisely why I don't think it is the Wafford thing.
33:49
SPEAKER_06: It is not Oregon is a liberal state, Pennsylvania is much more of a bellwether state, uh, and uh and and and he will carry some of that baggage, uh uh unfairly so.
33:59
SPEAKER_06: So it's uh I don't think it'll be a fair test.
34:01
SPEAKER_20: What do you think the resolution of this Packwood affair does to the replication of the Senate as a whole, of the with the view of Washington out in the country?
34:11
SPEAKER_07: Well, I mean, Jeremy Thorpe said of the Harold Macmillan shakeup in the British cabinet, uh greater love has no man than to lay down his friend's life for his own political career.
34:21
SPEAKER_07: Uh I think uh on reflection, we'll see some of that.
34:23
SPEAKER_07: I mean, Bob Packwood became uh an embarrassment, became uh a threat.
34:28
SPEAKER_07: Uh it it isn't going to redeem the Senate, but certainly the prospect of three months or four months of hearings uh of the nature described and anticipated uh would have been devastating.
34:42
SPEAKER_06: Well, I I I think frankly, and and we haven't talked about this much, but I think it does raise a question about standards and double standards.
34:48
SPEAKER_06: Um uh there is a lot of a lot of these charges were 20 years old, uh uh and there's a question of the ethic at that time things changing, and that ethic, you know, no longer applying.
34:59
SPEAKER_06: And there are some people in the Senate, other people in the Senate we all know about.
35:03
SPEAKER_06: If the standards had been applied when they were in trouble, Ted Kennedy most prominently, the question is would he have survived in this sort of political um ethical climate?
35:12
SPEAKER_06: I don't think so.
35:13
SPEAKER_06: So I think that's something for the Senate to think about what are the real standards of conduct uh and sexual behavior and other things.
35:20
SPEAKER_06: The standards really aren't clear.
35:22
SPEAKER_20: But are you saying you think there could be something of a backlash that the public could feel Peckle was railroaded?
35:27
SPEAKER_06: No, I don't think that the that's gonna be the outcome because he was allowed.
35:32
SPEAKER_06: I mean, at best he was allowed.
35:34
SPEAKER_06: I mean, what would my grandmother used to call allowed uh in his behavior?
35:37
SPEAKER_06: But I'm but what I'm saying is that uh uh he's not the only one, and there has to be a sense that that standard is going to be applied universally when these things come up.
35:48
SPEAKER_07: Let me just offer a brief exception, and that is this.
35:51
SPEAKER_07: Uh well, why is Senator said once if we if if uh uh adultery were an exclusion, then they would never get a a majority in the Senate a quorum.
36:00
SPEAKER_07: I I don't know of any case where Ted Kennedy forced attentions upon some of the gentlemen.
36:04
SPEAKER_07: And I think that's I think that's what this is about and is what made it different.
36:08
SPEAKER_20: We're gonna have to leave it there without going on to Ted Kennedy.
36:10
SPEAKER_20: Thank you very much.
36:13
SPEAKER_30: With that, I think you've got a clearer picture of just what a big deal this was uh for the 1996 presidential campaign and for the Senate.
36:21
SPEAKER_30: Uh and we're gonna close out with a crossfire.
36:26
SPEAKER_30: And you're gonna hear Bob Beckle, who is one of the was a really well-known Democratic uh campaign leader, he ran the Walter Mondale campaign, Robert Novak, you're gonna hear from Senator uh uh Richard Bryan, who was on the Ethics Committee, who was the ranking member, you're gonna hear from Gloria Borger.
36:45
SPEAKER_30: Uh and then we're gonna go into a final report from Candy Crowley on the on the whole uh situation uh uh that she does for Prime News to close out uh this episode.
37:00
SPEAKER_30: And I think you're gonna get a sense that I'm not the only one who asked a lot of questions about this process, about the fairness of a lot of things, uh where Mr.
37:12
SPEAKER_30: Packwood was concerned.
37:14
SPEAKER_30: Um you know, we're gonna talk about a little bit about my journalism career in another episode, but um just just so you know that there are a lot of questions out there because there's a lot of history now, 30-something years later, when you talk about Bob Packard, he's just the you know uh lout that was in the Senate.
37:33
SPEAKER_30: Um and I'm not sure that that that's totally fair in that um the you know, the age of some of these accusations, um and then the fairness about the the the doctors doctrine of the diaries and and the the uh the stories about his wife.
37:52
SPEAKER_30: Uh and and I I've heard that before.
37:55
SPEAKER_30: I you know, I I do think that the sexual harassment and the actual actions that are borderline assault were not actually playing out assault, or so serious that they deserved looking at.
38:07
SPEAKER_30: Uh you do question the length of time.
38:10
SPEAKER_30: Um but uh you know that's a question of whether you believe in the statute of limitations or whether or not your actions go back to haunt you.
38:17
SPEAKER_30: And they they did in this case.
38:19
SPEAKER_30: Uh but we're gonna let you hear this debate because it gets good.
38:22
SPEAKER_30: I have to say, considering how uh negative Bob Packwood was viewed, I'll give it to Robert Novak.
38:29
SPEAKER_30: He'll back up a bit, and he gets it right to Senator Bryan and uh holds his feet to the fire.
38:35
SPEAKER_30: And he does it a little later on when they're discussing with Gloria Borger, too.
38:39
SPEAKER_30: So um uh it's a very interesting uh uh conversation.
38:44
SPEAKER_30: And look at this on the night that that Bob Packwood have resigned with some of the preeminent political minds in the country.
38:52
SPEAKER_30: And uh we'll leave it with light with that as we finish up the 24 hours that really changed the U.S.
38:59
SPEAKER_30: Senate and changed the dole presidential campaign tremendously.
39:04
SPEAKER_30: And the Senate and the Republican agenda.
39:07
SPEAKER_30: It was that big of a deal in 1995.
39:09
SPEAKER_15: Uh ethics committee rules, Senator Packwood had an opportunity to request a public hearing.
39:15
SPEAKER_15: He did.
39:16
SPEAKER_15: And he did not.
39:20
SPEAKER_15: Let me be clear on that because there's a lot of misperceptions.
39:24
SPEAKER_15: Under under our rules, Senator Packwood had a right to appear before us.
39:27
SPEAKER_15: He did so, and for three days we listened to his testimony.
39:31
SPEAKER_15: He also had a right to request public hearings.
39:34
SPEAKER_15: He declined to do so earlier this year.
39:37
SPEAKER_15: On the Senate floor, when Barbara Boxer brought her resolution.
39:40
SPEAKER_15: He had an opportunity by voting with Senator Boxer.
39:43
SPEAKER_15: And those of that.
39:44
SPEAKER_15: And I voted for Senator Boxer, and he declined to do so.
39:47
SPEAKER_15: So on two occasions, Senator Packwood had an opportunity to request a hearing to face his accusers, and then chose in August to reverse his position.
39:57
SPEAKER_16: You voted on the floor.
39:59
SPEAKER_16: In fact, you spoke on the floor, unless I'm sadly mistaken, in favor of public hearings.
40:04
SPEAKER_16: And then after he said, okay, I have changed my mind.
40:08
SPEAKER_16: You say we are not going to have public hearings.
40:11
SPEAKER_16: Is that fair?
40:11
SPEAKER_15: It is absolutely fair.
40:13
SPEAKER_15: The Senator had on two occasions to repeat, Bob, two occasions, he had the right to do so.
40:18
SPEAKER_15: He chose not to do so.
40:19
SPEAKER_17: And not only cannot only that, Bob Pack, but let's be straight about this, for months was saying he doesn't want public hearings.
40:25
SPEAKER_17: He said most of this he was in a blackout.
40:27
SPEAKER_17: But now he wants to face his accuser.
40:28
SPEAKER_17: What's he going to talk about?
40:29
SPEAKER_17: If he was in a blackout, what's he gonna say?
40:32
SPEAKER_16: You got me?
40:33
SPEAKER_16: Senator, uh, just on the on the opening thing, though, I I know I talked to senators uh on background, and they uh they say they didn't want 17 Anita Hills up there to have and to have all these feminists saying they don't get it, they don't get it.
40:50
SPEAKER_16: Isn't that something you dreaded having all these women?
40:54
SPEAKER_15: I can I can speak only for myself.
40:56
SPEAKER_15: Uh our responsibility was to examine the evidence.
40:58
SPEAKER_15: We did so.
40:59
SPEAKER_15: It was overwhelming, it was powerful, it was compelling, clear and convincing that the Senator was guilty on each of the charges.
41:08
SPEAKER_15: I did not fear hearings.
41:09
SPEAKER_15: In fact, I had advocated them earlier on.
41:12
SPEAKER_17: Senator, can I move on and ask you about an area here that has not had much publicity?
41:17
SPEAKER_17: There have been some allegations that Senator Packwood or people associated with him used the chairmanship of the Finance Committee in soliciting money for his defense fund.
41:27
SPEAKER_17: Was that something that you looked into and what did you find?
41:29
SPEAKER_15: Yes, that was very uh not solicitations for the defense fund.
41:33
SPEAKER_15: What we did with one of the categories when Senator Packwood was going through the divorce proceedings, he solicited lobbyists who had matters pending before him, asking those lobbyists to offer his estranged wife, Georgie, a compensated position.
41:49
SPEAKER_15: And the diary lay that never happened before.
41:53
SPEAKER_15: And and the consequence of that, of course, would be the gain personally because it would reduce his financial obligation to pay alimony.
42:04
SPEAKER_15: Well, I can only speak as to matters before us.
42:07
SPEAKER_15: I think it is grossly improper for a senator to solicit a lodge common who has a matter pending before him to, in effect, hire his wife so that his obligation to pay alimony is reduced.
42:17
SPEAKER_17: Can we get back on this case for a second?
42:19
SPEAKER_17: Uh it's nice just shot at deflecting it, but it's it th those days are over.
42:23
SPEAKER_17: There were Alan Simpson went to the floor of the United States Senate this afternoon and said something that surprised me that Bob Packard had come to Bob Dole and he Simpson and offered his resignation.
42:34
SPEAKER_17: Uh in exchange, as I understand it, for you all not sending these documents to uh the Justice Department, which may he may now face a criminal problem.
42:43
SPEAKER_17: Is that accurate when Simpson says that you all sent them even though you knew he was willing to resign?
42:49
SPEAKER_17: And if so, why did you do it?
42:50
SPEAKER_17: This occurred in November of 1993.
42:53
SPEAKER_15: The Senator did approach us.
42:55
SPEAKER_15: He offered, after a series of discussions, to resign.
42:58
SPEAKER_15: He then approached the then vice chairman of the ethics committee, indicating in effect that he needed a window of opportunity, which the vice chairman believed that he wanted an opportunity to destroy the evidence.
43:11
SPEAKER_15: The vice chairman, now the chairman, Senator McConnell, made us aware of that, the full committee.
43:16
SPEAKER_15: And at that point, because we would have been an accomplice, if you will, to a felony act, we had notified the Justice Department.
43:23
SPEAKER_17: But you were not you were not sure he was going to do that, in fairness to Senator Pack, but this was some speculation.
43:31
SPEAKER_17: But would it not have been less painful for everybody all the way around if you all had accepted his resignation, not sent those papers to the Justice Department and had this thing wrapped up in 93?
43:39
SPEAKER_15: Oh, in terms of the amount of time and effort, clearly.
43:43
SPEAKER_15: But I mean, we had a duty and an obligation.
43:45
SPEAKER_15: Having been charged with knowledge that the Senator was about, so we believed, to destroy evidence.
43:51
SPEAKER_15: Evidence of a crime.
43:52
SPEAKER_15: For us to have ignored that would have been irresponsible conduct on our part, and neither the now chairman uh then the vice chairman and I felt that that was the appropriate course of action, and we notified the Justice Department.
44:03
SPEAKER_16: Senator Bryant, after the after Senator Packwood resigned, several Republican senators took the floor.
44:09
SPEAKER_16: I think the two strongest voices that this was not due process, that he did not get his day in court, came from two of your fellow Westerners, Senator Simpson of Wyoming and Senator Stevens of Alaska.
44:22
SPEAKER_16: I think fairly well respected figures in the Senate, not not extremists or or not nut cases.
44:30
SPEAKER_16: Isn't it isn't it, would you want to go through that process where you cannot face your accuser, you cannot question your accuser, uh, that there is it's everything is done behind closed doors?
44:42
SPEAKER_16: Bob, he had the right to do that.
44:45
SPEAKER_15: He gave that right.
44:46
SPEAKER_15: He had the right in late July, he was asked.
44:51
SPEAKER_15: You know, he was before the committee for three consecutive days, and he notified us in writing, but I do not desire a chance.
44:58
SPEAKER_16: We have a we have a trial going on in in Los Angeles, O.J.
45:02
SPEAKER_16: Simpson, and every witness is is it can be interrogated, you have preliminary hearing.
45:09
SPEAKER_16: He could not interrogate any of these people, and he says that the witnesses he wanted you to question that gave conflicting evidence, you wouldn't even call.
45:17
SPEAKER_15: That is not true.
45:18
SPEAKER_15: We asked uh the senator to provide a list of witnesses.
45:21
SPEAKER_15: He delayed weeks and months.
45:24
SPEAKER_15: Finally, we got the list.
45:26
SPEAKER_15: All of those, all of those witnesses were questioned by the committee staff.
45:30
SPEAKER_15: Can I come back to another point here?
45:33
SPEAKER_17: By the timing of this, he did not want to have public hearings.
45:36
SPEAKER_17: He fought like hell not to have him.
45:38
SPEAKER_17: When did he decide he wanted to have him?
45:39
SPEAKER_17: When the allegations about him being with a minor came out.
45:42
SPEAKER_17: Now that is a little bit of a coincidence, don't you think?
45:44
SPEAKER_17: And let me ask you this question, though, about that's those specific allegations.
45:48
SPEAKER_17: Uh, one, did you confirm, or in your view, did the committee believe that he in fact did have an affair with or or or sexually exploited a minor?
45:57
SPEAKER_15: In the resolution unanimously adopted by the committee, and I think it's important to point out to your viewers, it's the only committee in the Senate which you have three Republicans and three Democrats.
46:06
SPEAKER_15: Our actions were unanimous.
46:08
SPEAKER_15: We concluded in our resolution that indeed the allegations were uh credible and serious, but we did not rely upon those allegations in preferring the charges.
46:18
SPEAKER_15: We felt it was important at this juncture to move forward on the primary offenses, which were the subject of Bill of Take.
46:27
SPEAKER_15: Let me I mean, as far as the 17-year-old, you don't you you we we viewed yes, our our our staff examined her, we viewed her testimony to be serious and credible.
46:37
SPEAKER_16: Let me ask you this you're the judge, you're the jury, you're the prosecutor, you're everything that we don't have in our criminal justice system.
46:46
SPEAKER_16: You're all wrapped up.
46:47
SPEAKER_16: Did you personally question a single witness?
46:52
SPEAKER_16: I did not.
46:52
SPEAKER_16: I reviewed the case.
46:53
SPEAKER_16: No senator did, did they?
46:54
SPEAKER_15: But Bob, you're missing the point.
46:56
SPEAKER_15: You're missing the point.
46:57
SPEAKER_15: The senator had the right to do so, and he weighed that right.
47:01
SPEAKER_15: He expressly declined.
47:02
SPEAKER_15: Well you've said that, sir, and on the floor of the United States Senate.
47:06
SPEAKER_16: Let me finish my point.
47:08
SPEAKER_16: You've said that several times.
47:09
SPEAKER_16: Because it is factual.
47:10
SPEAKER_16: No, but I want to go on to say You cannot one time say, look, I don't want cross-accounization, it's not important to me, and then later say, look.
47:17
SPEAKER_16: I want to move on to something else.
47:18
SPEAKER_16: I want to say that no, I don't think our viewers know that after you had made that before you had made a decision to expel one of your colleagues, not one of you, of these six senators, had ever questioned one of these complainants.
47:31
SPEAKER_15: We had we had the depositions before us.
47:34
SPEAKER_15: We had the statementship, we have not personally examined.
47:37
SPEAKER_15: That's amazing.
47:39
SPEAKER_17: You know you are Johnny Cochran will be calling you tomorrow.
47:41
SPEAKER_17: You're talking about deflecting his he's still making an affirming trial, you're making it a system trial.
47:45
SPEAKER_17: I mean, I'm talking about the system on trial.
47:47
SPEAKER_17: Well, leaving that aside, are you willing to concede that this guy had taken actions that clearly violated the morality uh uh of these women and the only one?
47:58
SPEAKER_17: Okay, well, then these well, can I well I've got one such question here.
48:01
SPEAKER_17: I want to ask this question, which is when you uh Senator McConnell, who for the longest time fought on Packwood's behalf, at least a never fought on the head.
48:11
SPEAKER_17: Did he did he believe that that uh Packwood cut the tr uh legs off one of them when he came out asking for public hearings?
48:16
SPEAKER_17: He did not advise him of that, and that took him by surprise, and that was one of the reasons this moved forward.
48:20
SPEAKER_17: I I can't speak for Senator McConnell.
48:22
SPEAKER_15: I can tell you that after reviewing all of the evidence prior to the filing of the charges, after hearing three days of Packwood's testimony, three days, I was unpersuaded by what little defense he did offer with respect to each one of these three categories of offenses.
48:37
SPEAKER_15: At that point, I thought the charges were serious enough that we were talking about expulsion.
48:41
SPEAKER_17: All right.
48:41
SPEAKER_17: Uh thank you, Senator Bryan from Nevada.
48:43
SPEAKER_17: Thanks for being with us.
48:44
SPEAKER_17: And uh, we're gonna come back here and talk about the political fallout of all this with Golera Boards, U.S.
48:49
SPEAKER_17: News and World Report and Kenny Calliope, CNN.
48:51
SPEAKER_17: We'll be back in a moment.
48:56
SPEAKER_33: The history of the United States Senate.
48:58
SPEAKER_33: But it says one thing we do have our failings and we do make our mistakes.
49:08
SPEAKER_28: Uh on the contrary, uh Senator Packwood, the people who arrest her compliance about her or to better her has her been public error.
49:20
SPEAKER_17: Welcome back to Crossfire.
49:22
SPEAKER_17: It was quite a day in the U.S.
49:23
SPEAKER_17: Senate.
49:23
SPEAKER_17: Bob Packwood resigned this afternoon after the Senate Ethics Committee voted yesterday to ask him for sexual misconduct and ethical violations.
49:31
SPEAKER_17: Joining us now to talk about the political implications of all this is Gloria Borger, managing editor of U.S.
49:37
SPEAKER_17: News and World Report, and on Capitol Hill, CNN's Candy Crowley.
49:41
SPEAKER_17: Uh Gloria, thanks for coming over.
49:43
SPEAKER_17: Immediate uh political fallout in terms of Bob Dole and all this.
49:47
SPEAKER_24: I think uh this is tough for Bob Dole.
49:49
SPEAKER_24: He liked having Bob Packard as chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.
49:51
SPEAKER_24: Now he's got to do a couple of things, he's got to figure out a way to keep Phil Graham off the finance committee.
49:56
SPEAKER_24: You know, he did it once before.
49:58
SPEAKER_24: Uh it's a seniority position.
50:00
SPEAKER_24: I'm told that he was scrambling all day to try and find somebody else to fill that slot who's more senior uh than Phil Graham.
50:06
SPEAKER_24: Secondly, the chairmanship.
50:08
SPEAKER_24: Uh, you've got Roth of Delaware supposed to take it over.
50:11
SPEAKER_24: He's uh not considered to be uh uh an independent guy.
50:15
SPEAKER_24: He'll do whatever Dole wants, but Dole will have to pay a lot more attention to the Finance Committee, which is not what he wants to do when he's running for president.
50:20
SPEAKER_17: But Dev Cyford also has got to be this is out of the way now, right?
50:23
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, absolutely out of the way.
50:24
SPEAKER_24: But you know, Dole's been kind of quiet on this until his little floor speech uh today.
50:29
SPEAKER_24: He's been a pal of uh Bob Packwood's, and he voted for closed hearings, you know, and all these Republican presidential candidates are on the record having voted for closed hearings.
50:38
SPEAKER_24: It's not easy.
50:39
SPEAKER_16: Candy Crowley, uh did you change your name?
50:41
SPEAKER_16: It was always Crowley, as I remember, wasn't it?
50:44
SPEAKER_16: It is.
50:44
SPEAKER_17: Well what hasn't changed is Bob's still a cheap shot ours.
50:47
SPEAKER_16: Go ahead, Bob.
50:48
SPEAKER_16: Candy, uh you I was struck listening to the debate or the or the or the speeches on the Senate today that people like Alan Simpson and uh Arlen Spector and uh Ted Stevens, they were they weren't defending Bob Packwood, but they were really upset by the system.
51:08
SPEAKER_16: Do you find that there's there's a question of whether this is a a system uh that that is really uh geared to to to the potential unfairness?
51:18
SPEAKER_26: I uh you know, uh first of all, what what else are they gonna talk about?
51:22
SPEAKER_26: I mean, there were two things to talk about on the floor this afternoon.
51:25
SPEAKER_26: One was uh good old times, which is sort of what you Dole did, and the other is, oh, this is incredibly unfair, and talk about the process.
51:32
SPEAKER_26: You can't talk about the charges.
51:34
SPEAKER_26: It's it's a little sticky.
51:35
SPEAKER_26: Having read, you know, like uh a bunch of these uh uh pages of testimony.
51:39
SPEAKER_26: I can assure you they didn't want to come out and talk about you, you know, defending.
51:43
SPEAKER_16: They were sincere uh about the about the process.
51:45
SPEAKER_16: They seem to me, they seem to me really sincere that they that they think this is a a system that maybe did not create a uh a uh a a judicial lynching in this case, but could in the future.
51:57
SPEAKER_26: Well, I think they're probably sincere.
51:58
SPEAKER_26: They're well, first of all, they're lawyers, so that's uh the Senate is full of them, and this isn't a this isn't a court of law, so and it doesn't work like it.
52:05
SPEAKER_26: But the fact of the matter is, as you heard Senator Bryan talk about, he was given a chance for this open hearing.
52:10
SPEAKER_26: So I think the problem is by saying, hey, he didn't get a chance to face his accusers, is somewhat watered down by the fact that first of all he said, I don't want to face my accusers, and then he voted against it.
52:20
SPEAKER_26: So he had two times to be on the record as wanting a public hearing, and only when everything began to fall down that had he had tried to build back up over the last three years.
52:30
SPEAKER_26: Finally, when that all went away, he said, Oh, well, maybe we ought to have public hearings.
52:33
SPEAKER_24: Candy, didn't a lot of these folks feel betrayed by Bob Packwood?
52:36
SPEAKER_24: They'd gone out on a limb and voted for these closed hearings, and then he went and sought it off.
52:40
SPEAKER_26: Well, they either thought uh felt betrayed or just thought he was acting erratically, which a lot of them said, What you know, what is up with this?
52:48
SPEAKER_24: No, no, they didn't want open hearings, but then he changed his mind.
52:51
SPEAKER_24: You know, Packwood changed his mind.
52:52
SPEAKER_24: They'd gone out there, they took some tough that was a tough vote to make when you've got women's constituents, and they did it.
52:58
SPEAKER_17: You know, I'm like Candy, I'm gonna ask both you and Gloria this.
53:01
SPEAKER_17: I this I found appalling coming from my side today.
53:03
SPEAKER_17: I listened to uh Patricia Ireland, I listened to other feminist leaders who three years ago were extolling Bob Packwood on virtually every issue.
53:12
SPEAKER_17: I mean, he was one of the stalwarts for them in the Republican Party.
53:15
SPEAKER_17: And they're eternity three years.
53:17
SPEAKER_17: No, I understand that.
53:18
SPEAKER_17: But I and I think and I damn it.
53:20
SPEAKER_17: I mean, I think I think the way that they turned as quickly as they did on does not serve them well.
53:24
SPEAKER_17: And I'm curious what Candy and Glory think about that.
53:27
SPEAKER_26: I you know, I'll I'll just say I you cannot you can be with somebody on the issues.
53:32
SPEAKER_26: Bob Pet no one says that Bob Hagwood wasn't good, quote, on the issues.
53:36
SPEAKER_26: I know Bob Novak might disagree with that, but as far as many women's groups were concerned, he was on the right side of the abortion issue, the correct side of the abortion issue, um, and other women's issues.
53:47
SPEAKER_26: The problem is, you know, at some point during this process, you have to look at it and say, I may like where he stands on the issues, but he did some some fairly disgusting things.
53:57
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, I I I think, you know, you can you can separate the two.
54:00
SPEAKER_24: You know, the interesting thing to me about this, though, is that the senators got up there today and said, this is telling the world that the United States Senate gets it, right?
54:08
SPEAKER_24: We get it now, we've changed since Anita Hill.
54:11
SPEAKER_24: And I would argue to you that if Bob Packwood had not altered his diaries, uh, which was an offense to the United States Senate, too.
54:20
SPEAKER_24: It's stupid, and an offense to the Senate.
54:22
SPEAKER_24: And if he had not changed his mind on these public hearings, then he might still be able to do that.
54:26
SPEAKER_16: Let me ask you the question I asked Senator Bryan, and he said, Oh no, no, no, no.
54:29
SPEAKER_16: But I want to ask you Do you think they they really did not want to put 17 Anita Hills up there and and to have uh female journalists saying they don't get it?
54:40
SPEAKER_24: Well, I think they didn't, but I think Republicans didn't as much as Democrats didn't want to.
54:44
SPEAKER_24: But you know, the irony of this is too that the the Senate now is trying to improve its image.
54:48
SPEAKER_24: What you also see in these diaries that Candy's talking about is offensive in regard to campaign finance, you know?
54:54
SPEAKER_24: Somebody saying, well, maybe you want to contribute ten thousand dollars to my legal defense fund.
54:59
SPEAKER_17: That's shocking.
54:59
SPEAKER_17: That's shocking.
55:03
SPEAKER_17: It may seem small now, but Candy, there's gonna probably be a Democratic senator uh at least for the next year in this seat.
55:09
SPEAKER_17: Maybe the only way the Democrats can get a seat anymore, but nonetheless, but one vote up there means an awful lot.
55:14
SPEAKER_17: Things being a good thing.
55:15
SPEAKER_17: Oh, do you know there's gonna be a Democratic Senator?
55:17
SPEAKER_17: Come on, give me a break.
55:18
SPEAKER_17: If that Democratic governor doesn't for a Democratic senator, we'll get it.
55:22
SPEAKER_17: No, he is not.
55:23
SPEAKER_17: God, you better learn your lesson, man.
55:25
SPEAKER_17: You talk about living in the dark ages.
55:26
SPEAKER_17: Get your facts right.
55:27
SPEAKER_17: If I don't get my names right, you get your facts right.
55:29
SPEAKER_16: Uh let me ask you this, Candy.
55:31
SPEAKER_16: Uh uh Senator McCulski of Maryland said that uh she would have a uh she was she was going to fire uh Bob Packwick as senator.
55:42
SPEAKER_16: She said that.
55:43
SPEAKER_16: Isn't that a little make nervous making for senators when people, when their colleagues saying we don't like the way you act, we're gonna fire you as if you were a uh a corporate employee?
55:53
SPEAKER_16: I mean, the only people I thought could fire people were their were their constituents.
55:57
SPEAKER_26: Well, I tell you, um this is what my mother used to call straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
56:02
SPEAKER_26: I mean, uh you know, uh uh in in fact, they were uh voting to fire him.
56:08
SPEAKER_26: It's the only way a senator getting fired.
56:09
SPEAKER_26: I mean, now yes, they could have gone back to Oregon and had a, you know, brought him back and all of that.
56:14
SPEAKER_26: But I mean at some point the Senate has to stand up and say, this is unacceptable.
56:18
SPEAKER_26: We cannot have a person here doing this, and that's what they did.
56:20
SPEAKER_26: Call it what you want.
56:21
SPEAKER_26: She called it firing, call it whatever you want.
56:23
SPEAKER_26: It's the same thing.
56:23
SPEAKER_24: Yeah, I think I think this was an easy call for these senators to make.
56:27
SPEAKER_24: I think they said, you know, let's fire them.
56:28
SPEAKER_16: All right, the easy call we're gonna have to make out the last word, Gloria Borger, Candy Crowley, and thank you very much.
56:35
SPEAKER_16: And Mr.
56:36
SPEAKER_16: Beckle and I will try to get things straightened out on who's gonna succeed Bob Packwood when we come back.
56:41
SPEAKER_16: Governor uh Senator Packwood.
56:42
SPEAKER_16: The governor of Oregon, of course, is a Democrat, but they cannot uh appoint the successor.
56:47
SPEAKER_16: There has to be a special election.
56:48
SPEAKER_16: But let me ask you this question.
56:50
SPEAKER_16: Uh, would you, with your with your wonderful past, would you like to have those nine those 99 other senators looking into your past, not questioning any complainants, just doing it uh through through uh through the through the documents?
57:05
SPEAKER_16: Would you feel you were gonna get a square deal?
57:07
SPEAKER_17: Bob, if they're gonna have my closet, it would sound like the Boston Pops at the 4th of July.
57:11
SPEAKER_17: Okay.
57:11
SPEAKER_17: No, of course not.
57:12
SPEAKER_17: But the difference is, and I'm not sure yours wouldn't sound like a complete symphony.
57:16
SPEAKER_17: Uh but but the point is, I don't they ask for these jobs, Bob.
57:19
SPEAKER_17: It's a tough world out there.
57:20
SPEAKER_17: I feel badly for Packwood.
57:22
SPEAKER_17: Anybody thinks, by the way, that he's gonna have a legacy other than this would be uh sadly mistaken.
57:27
SPEAKER_17: From the left, I'm Bob Beckle.
57:28
SPEAKER_17: Good night for Crossfire.
57:29
SPEAKER_16: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
57:30
SPEAKER_16: Joining us again next time for another edition of Crossfire.
57:33
SPEAKER_16: Prime News is next.
57:35
SPEAKER_16: Here's Bobby Batista to fill us in on what's coming up.
57:38
SPEAKER_34: Bobby?
57:39
SPEAKER_34: Robert, thank you.
57:40
SPEAKER_34: Coming up on Prime News, a stunning announcement on the Senate floor.
57:43
SPEAKER_34: We'll have a live report and a live update.
57:46
SPEAKER_13: Resign.
57:48
SPEAKER_32: It is the honorable footman to do.
57:51
SPEAKER_32: Facing the near certainty of expulsion, Senator Bob Packwood of Oregon calls it quits.
57:58
SPEAKER_32: Detect Linden Souls, thank you for joining us.
58:01
SPEAKER_32: There was no testimony of the O.J.
58:02
SPEAKER_34: Simpson trial Thursday, but Republican Bob Packwood announced his resignation today amid allegations of sexual and official misconduct.
58:10
SPEAKER_34: Joining us from Capitol Hill with the full story, CNN's Candy Crowley.
58:14
SPEAKER_34: Candy?
58:15
SPEAKER_26: Bobby, this morning was tense, and at noon things were weirdly quiet, but this evening only an overwhelming sadness permeates Capitol Hill as the career of Senator Bob Packwood comes to a disgraceful close.
58:29
SPEAKER_26: After almost three years of charges, denials, anger, explanations, depositions, points, and counterpoints, the only thing left to say was goodbye.
58:39
SPEAKER_13: It is my duty resigned.
58:44
SPEAKER_13: It is the honorable duty for this country.
59:48
SPEAKER_33: This is a sad day in a chapter of history of the United States Senate.
59:53
SPEAKER_33: But it says one thing: we do have our failings and we do make our mistakes.
59:58
SPEAKER_33: But it is the sign of a wise man and even a giant man who stands and does what has to be done and goes on to fight another day.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_26: It was a 180-degree mood swing from the morning when the Ethics Committee released ten volumes of Packwood papers.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_26: Some entries were merely embarrassing.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_26: It's funny, Packwood wrote in his diary of a night in his office.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_26: Stafford too and I were in there for three hours, made love once, got up and danced after we made love, lied back down on the floor, and had another glass of wine.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_26: The wine was in the office.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_26: I rather enjoyed it in the sense it wasn't wham bam, thank you, ma'am.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_26: Other sections were of a darker nature.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_26: It just happened very quickly, said a dining room hostess in Oregon.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_26: I just felt someone run their hand from my ankle to my crotch very fast, and I whirled around, and it was Bob Packwood.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_26: He obviously had been drinking and was inebriated, so he was kind of leaning in the doorway by that time.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_26: Essentially, they threw the book at him, accusing Packwood of assaulting women, tampering with evidence, and using his power for financial gain, releasing their documents, bipartisan committee leaders also unleashed their wrath.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_15: I want to say as strongly as I possibly can that the conduct that we find Senator Packwood guilty of is unacceptable.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_15: Unacceptable in any workplace in America, unacceptable in the United States Senate.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_14: If this were a criminal court, Senator Packwood would likely receive 10 to 16 months in prison as a first offender.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_26: Evidence of criminal activity will be turned over to the Justice Department.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_26: The Packwood resignation contains no dates certain for his departure.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_26: He will be given time to pack up and wrap up.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_26: It's unclear just exactly where the senator is headed.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_26: After 27 years in the Senate, he says he's really never given any thought to where else he might go.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_26: Bobby?
1:01:54
SPEAKER_34: Candy, after all of this, it seems that this man was truly uh a man and a senator of a dual nature.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_34: And I'm wondering as history goes by which way he will be remembered.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_26: Uh hard to tell.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_26: Um har hard enough to write about today, much much less uh the future.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_26: But I I think uh this sort of thing tends to override when you're talking about biographies, this sort of uh ending in disgrace.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_26: There haven't been that many people who have been forced to resign when when faced with the idea of expulsion.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_26: On the other hand, all of his friends say that Senator Packwood has been the mastermind behind many pieces of legislation that have affected millions of lives, and and that's where they see his real legacy going.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_26: Whether or not that's how it's written, I guess we'll all just have to wait and see.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_26: But he really was a man of dual nature.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_26: It it is, I I told somebody it's it's almost Shakespearean.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_26: There's this tragic flaw.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_26: There's all these people that say he's brilliant, he's a great debater, he's a wonderful lawyer, and then you have this other side of him.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_26: So so you're right, it's really a dual nature.
1:02:55
SPEAKER_34: Absolutely.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_34: Candy Crowley on Capitol Hill, thanks very much.