Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The After Dark Bandit: A Tale of Two Brothers | Doug Morgan

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The After Dark Bandit: A Tale of Two Brothers | Doug Morgan · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Appoche production Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm
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  Speaker 1: your host Adam Shand. For two years in the late
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, a cunning and daring armed robber ran rampant
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  Speaker 1: across the Victorian countryside, robbing banks and tab agencies at
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  Speaker 1: a fantastic rate.
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  Speaker 2: He plunted banks and tabs, terrifying staff and.
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  Speaker 1: Customers, sometimes hitting the same banks twice or three times,
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  Speaker 1: and becoming ever more bold mysterious figure linked to multiple
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  Speaker 1: bank heists with no clear pattern or trace. Police were
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  Speaker 1: amazed that the bandit could pull off two jobs within
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  Speaker 1: thirty minutes in towns dozens of kilometers apart. Authorities are
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  Speaker 1: stumped as the same man appears to be in two
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  Speaker 1: places at once. The brazen gun man often hit his
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  Speaker 1: targets just before closing time, disappearing into the bush under
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  Speaker 1: the cover of dart backness. He became known as the
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  Speaker 1: after Dark Bandit and was the state's most wanted man,
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  Speaker 1: a suspect in more than two dozen armed robberies, outsmarting
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  Speaker 1: police for years, becoming Australia's most wanted men. It began
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  Speaker 1: to dawn that this was not one man, but two.
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  Speaker 1: Twenty four robberies.
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  Speaker 2: Later, all was revealed police had beat out foxed by
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  Speaker 2: not one bandit, but two.
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  Speaker 1: But what no one realized until the crime spree was
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  Speaker 1: over the pair were identical twins.
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  Speaker 3: Identical twins, Peter and Doug Morgan.
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  Speaker 1: The spree ended badly, with a cop almost fatally shot,
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  Speaker 1: and inevitably one twin gave up the other and they
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  Speaker 1: both served long prison sentences.
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  Speaker 3: I've been silent for forty years. There must be a
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  Speaker 3: reason for that.
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  Speaker 1: Doug Morgan turned his life around while in jail and
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  Speaker 1: has kindly agreed to share his story with me. Welcome Doug.
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  Speaker 3: How are you, Adam?
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  Speaker 1: I'm very well. How do you reflect on those years
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  Speaker 1: now your age seventy one?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I was sitting with my grandchildren on the weekend
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  Speaker 2: in a park, chatting about life, and I realized that
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  Speaker 2: a lot of my life was wasted and the damage
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  Speaker 2: I did to my family that still goes on, and
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  Speaker 2: the damage I did to victims and their families. So
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  Speaker 2: I look back and look at crime as a bad
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  Speaker 2: evil and there's no winners. And that's why I do
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  Speaker 2: a lot of work with young people, et cetera, et cetera,
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  Speaker 2: because I don't want other people to waste their lives.
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  Speaker 2: I think I've learned a lot over the journey. I
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  Speaker 2: think it's really changed my outlooks. And the story is
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  Speaker 2: not really about me. I try to look at it
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  Speaker 2: from outside it. I'm not the figure or the hero
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  Speaker 2: or the villain. I try to look at it in
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  Speaker 2: black and white and say, well, this is what happened.
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  Speaker 2: And I always like to think about what can we
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  Speaker 2: learn from today. People ask me if I'm religious. Did
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  Speaker 2: I turn around because I was religious? No, I sat
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  Speaker 2: in the cellon went I think I'm worth a lot
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  Speaker 2: more than this to myself and others, and I just
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  Speaker 2: made that decision. And what I think my philosophy would
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  Speaker 2: be learning from that. I could come out and have
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  Speaker 2: a successful life. But if you don't use your experiences
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  Speaker 2: to help other people, those experiences have little value, which
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  Speaker 2: means all those years in jail would have little value.
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  Speaker 1: Because we often look to our role models in life,
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  Speaker 1: often our fathers, and of course your dad Kay was
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  Speaker 1: also a bank robber back in the nineteen forties. How
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  Speaker 1: did that come about?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I always try to look at what went wrong.
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  Speaker 2: He was kicked out of the family because he didn't
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  Speaker 2: get on very well with one of his older brothers
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  Speaker 2: who was let's say, not manly, and he went and
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  Speaker 2: lived with his grandparents. So he obviously what I think
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  Speaker 2: with a lot of young people, if they become thrown
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  Speaker 2: out of the unit, they look for something else, and
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  Speaker 2: he became being a burglar. He stole a gun one
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  Speaker 2: night out of a bank in Greensborough when he was
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  Speaker 2: doing a burg trying to find the key to open
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  Speaker 2: the safe and with a gun in his hand that
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  Speaker 2: he found in that bank that night. He then about
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  Speaker 2: a week later said well now I can be a
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  Speaker 2: bank robber. I've got a gun, and he did so
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  Speaker 2: and had the bigger stood out in Australia's history. And
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  Speaker 2: I quite often chuckled to myself. They always talk about
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  Speaker 2: the Ok Corral, and there were seventeen shots fired in
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  Speaker 2: the American legendary Ok Correll and thirty second seventeen shots.
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  Speaker 2: There was more shots fired backwards and force between my
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  Speaker 2: father and two bank staff that had bigger guns than
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  Speaker 2: he had than the Ok Corral. So he's a legend
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  Speaker 2: in criminal statistics for that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, certainly it was quite a scene because he
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  Speaker 1: goes into the bank in Elpham there and he jumps
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  Speaker 1: in with his Browning pistol and says the gay and
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  Speaker 1: the two tellers go, well, the game's on here to
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  Speaker 1: they both had pistols.
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  Speaker 3: And they had bigger pistols.
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  Speaker 2: Now, before we go past that pistol, that was a
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  Speaker 2: Browning twenty five, Like you just said, my brother's first bank.
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  Speaker 2: When he left the bank, they accidentally put it Browning
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  Speaker 2: twenty five in with the money. So now my brother
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  Speaker 2: had a Browning twenty five. Now my brother's called out
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  Speaker 2: a lucky charm when he's been talking to media. That
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  Speaker 2: pistol that he took from a bank would be classified
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  Speaker 2: as evidence. He carried that and ended up shooting a
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  Speaker 2: copper with it two years later, So not a smart
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  Speaker 2: move to carry evidence and then shoot somebody with it.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, by the way, listeners, stay tuned for the relationship
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  Speaker 1: between Peter and Doug. I think anyone who's been a
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  Speaker 1: twin understands the rivalry between the two, but particularly when
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  Speaker 1: you're robbing banks and tab agencies. You lost your dad
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  Speaker 1: at forty one, Yes, what happened.
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  Speaker 3: He was on the run again.
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  Speaker 2: At the time, I was a bank teller and the
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  Speaker 2: AMZ and thirty dollars.
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  Speaker 3: I was a bank teller.
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  Speaker 1: You were a bank teller.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was a very good bank teller too, because
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  Speaker 2: I was very young, and he promoted me to be
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  Speaker 2: a bank teller. And my dad said, one night, we're
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  Speaker 2: going to go on the runn again. I've knocked off
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  Speaker 2: some money from a real estate agency because he'd been
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  Speaker 2: injured and couldn't work in the building trade, so he
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  Speaker 2: was working. He'd put the deposit in his own bank account,
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  Speaker 2: I think for a house anyway. So we're on the
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  Speaker 2: run in Adelaide and Broken Hill building houses and he
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  Speaker 2: has a massive heart attack, basically dies in my arms.
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  Speaker 2: I'm eighteen, and it's like a horrific scene. I've never
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  Speaker 2: heard anybody scream all whale as loud. I could never
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  Speaker 2: get that out of my mind. And he passed away
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  Speaker 2: right there and then. So that was the end of
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  Speaker 2: as far as I was concerned. My dad was a villain,
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  Speaker 2: but my dad was also a great father. When we
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  Speaker 2: played sport, he would become the coach of that sport.
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  Speaker 2: In a strange way, I idolized him. He was very
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  Speaker 2: smart man, but the trouble is he would resort to
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  Speaker 2: crime to prop up his businesses.
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  Speaker 1: Well. He had a piece of advice for you and Peter.
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  Speaker 1: He said, if you need to pursue a certain lifestyle,
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  Speaker 1: it's perfectly okay to get the money however you need to.
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  Speaker 2: I grew up with philosophy, as were Morgans, and you
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  Speaker 2: do what you want to live how you want, and
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  Speaker 2: that was basically it.
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  Speaker 3: The other word of advice I never took was work alone.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, work alone. That's a maxim that a lot of
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  Speaker 1: crooks should follow, but they don't. Now, this was the
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  Speaker 1: golden era of armed robberies in the seventies where the
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  Speaker 1: counter jumpers as they were called, were idolized in the
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  Speaker 1: criminal world, and there was some very big names who
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  Speaker 1: were involved in that. You weren't a big name. You
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  Speaker 1: and Peter were the guys s from nowhere, and this
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  Speaker 1: was part of your advantage. How did you decide to
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  Speaker 1: go from carpenters and builders son of a bank robber
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  Speaker 1: to actual bank robbers? How did that happen?
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  Speaker 3: Well?
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  Speaker 2: At thirteen, I was going along at night time when
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  Speaker 2: my dad breaking his post office in New Zealand and
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  Speaker 2: help him load saves in the back of cars and
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  Speaker 2: stuff like that. So I basically was a criminal at thirteen,
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  Speaker 2: And when he was arrested in New Zealand.
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  Speaker 3: The next day.
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  Speaker 2: We loaded safes into a car to get rid of
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  Speaker 2: the evidence because there was many saves that have been
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  Speaker 2: opened up in another house we had. So basically I
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  Speaker 2: was a criminal at thirteen, because once he's not there,
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  Speaker 2: I took over. But the thing is, my brother must
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  Speaker 2: have had this bank robbery stuff in his brain. And
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  Speaker 2: you've got to remember, you're totally right. Newspapers two three
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  Speaker 2: times a week would have an article fifteen twenty thousand
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  Speaker 2: taken by sometimes what they used to call the Blue
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  Speaker 2: Boilersuit gang. And my brother used to say we could
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  Speaker 2: do that, we could do that, and I always fob
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  Speaker 2: him off and go yeah, yeah, whatever, And then he's
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  Speaker 2: more persistent, bought some guns. And what happened was one Easter,
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  Speaker 2: we were waiting on two checks from my builder, who
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  Speaker 2: WO had never worked for before. It was quite a
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  Speaker 2: large amount of money, two houses that we were owed,
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  Speaker 2: and it didn't turn up for Easter. My brother was
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  Speaker 2: shot of money. He says, I got to pull a
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  Speaker 2: job before Easter. I got no cash. So that's how
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  Speaker 2: it really started. So all his talk was put into
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  Speaker 2: action in about three days and he picked a target,
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  Speaker 2: and we went about getting a getaway car by taking
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  Speaker 2: it from a car yard. He already had the guns,
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  Speaker 2: so that's how we actually got into it. And then
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  Speaker 2: three days after Easter the check for the two houses.
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  Speaker 3: Turned up in a mail.
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  Speaker 2: So those checks had turned up on the Wednesday, we
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  Speaker 2: wouldn't be bank robbers or tab robbers.
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  Speaker 1: The die was cast because you've had, let's call it
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  Speaker 1: a difficult relationship with your brother over the years, but
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  Speaker 1: you were so similar looking. In fact, when you look
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  Speaker 1: at pictures of it yourself back in the day with Peter,
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  Speaker 1: you even can't tell each other apart.
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  Speaker 2: That's right, and it's only God or karma that's made
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  Speaker 2: us look different and I look younger.
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  Speaker 1: Well, there you go. That's a subtle dig. He's not
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  Speaker 1: here to defend himself, but they'll may become.
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  Speaker 3: Laywright mind in the saddle digs.
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  Speaker 1: Different personality is a very different fact. When you were
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  Speaker 1: doing jobs that people would be amazed because you were
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  Speaker 1: doing jobs separate and together in different places, and they'd
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  Speaker 1: be talking about people saying, well, he even had a
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  Speaker 1: different mood. One was stern and aggressive, the other was
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  Speaker 1: cheeky and like alaricm you're pointing to yourself. You're with Alarkim.
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  Speaker 2: I would say so, because if you knew some of
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  Speaker 2: the things I said to big tough gangsters in jail,
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  Speaker 2: you know I don't have a sensible bone in my
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  Speaker 2: body when it comes to the way I talk to people.
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  Speaker 2: I usually talk has never got no respect. But then
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  Speaker 2: I've worked with homeless people and mentored prisoners and that,
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  Speaker 2: so obviously it's it's just my demeanor. But you're totally right.
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  Speaker 2: My brother would have been more stern. He was carrying
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  Speaker 2: a bigger gun. I was usually carrying an imitation pistol.
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  Speaker 2: Being a bank seller, maybe I was more relaxed in
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  Speaker 2: the style I was using. But you touched on jobs
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  Speaker 2: twenty minutes apart. That was all got up so that
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  Speaker 2: if you do one job, they surround the area with
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  Speaker 2: their roadblocks or whatever. You do a second job just
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  Speaker 2: outside the roadblocks. It causes chaos for them. So what
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  Speaker 2: we wanted to do is cause chaos. So they'd lift
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  Speaker 2: roadblocks in one area and then put the heat on
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  Speaker 2: the other area, and they're not really certain what's going
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  Speaker 2: on here. So we're taking in the upper hand. We're
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  Speaker 2: planning what they're going to do.
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  Speaker 1: And The reality is most people in their lives have
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  Speaker 1: stolen something at some stage, so they understand the feeling.
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  Speaker 1: I won't go into my theft of a costume jewelry
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  Speaker 1: ring from David Jones in nineteen seventy one. That's another story.
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  Speaker 1: But what's it like to march into a bank with
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  Speaker 1: even an imitation? And you also had a sawn off
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  Speaker 1: shotgun at times too, which was loaded.
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  Speaker 3: Now never loaded in the bank, never loaded.
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  Speaker 1: In the bank, important difference. But what's it like? Your
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  Speaker 1: brother talked about the massive adrenaline dump that takes place.
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  Speaker 2: I actually read that in an article that he was quoted,
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  Speaker 2: and I actually sat there going wonder what that feels like,
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  Speaker 2: because I'm very black and white. If you say to
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  Speaker 2: me we're doing this, I go, okay, we're doing this,
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  Speaker 2: just the same as you tell me we're going to
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: lift a heavy beam up in the building. Try to
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: go Okay, it looks pretty heavy, but we'll try and
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  Speaker 2: do it. I've never really felt that. I was quite amazed.
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  Speaker 2: He talked about that being the strongest drug in the
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  Speaker 2: world and how we'd be high for ages, and I went, seriously,
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  Speaker 2: I just don't get it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, other armed robbers I've spoken to over the years
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  Speaker 1: talk about the thrill not just of the job, but
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  Speaker 1: the planning, the meticulous surveillance, working out what you're going
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  Speaker 1: to do, getting away with it. It's a very long process.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, I'll give you that, but that's the same as
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  Speaker 2: even in the building trade.
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  Speaker 3: When you're building a house.
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  Speaker 2: You look at the plans, you decipher what the house
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: is going to look like, and then you said about
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: how to build that house. And I think in the
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: same way, it's the way I look upon our armed robberies.
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  Speaker 2: You'd say, this town has got a good bank, it's
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: a good target, it's got the things we need that
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: you can't see into the bank, so people walking past
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: go and see the robbery going down. So you go
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: through these checklists and so you then you select a bank.
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  Speaker 3: So it is like a job.
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  Speaker 2: So all that planning is quite sort of interest or
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  Speaker 2: keeping you involved. I'll tell you what nobody could ever
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  Speaker 2: understand is when you're going to the bush and you're
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  Speaker 2: carrying a four to ten shot gun with buckshot, and
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  Speaker 2: police and helicopters are all over you, and they're carrying
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  Speaker 2: twelve gay shotguns and thirty eights and forty fives and
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: they will shoot and kill you on the spot, and
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  Speaker 2: you're carrying a gun that won't even didn't their skin
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: basically because it's buckshot for birds, it.
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  Speaker 1: Will bounce off a thick jumper or some.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, So that was I spent three days in the
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  Speaker 2: bush after the Warburdon Bank and very cold and winter
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: up at the back of Warburton. Now you can't use
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: the torch because the helicopter might see the torch. So
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: it's really if you had to say some people enjoy
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: bush walking or camping or those things, I'm taking that
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  Speaker 2: right to the limit.
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  Speaker 1: Because themo was very clear you would do most of
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: your jobs in the winter months because the sun will
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: be down earlier and you'd hit these tab agencies and
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: banks later noon, so you could disappear under the cover
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  Speaker 1: of darkness into the bush.
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  Speaker 3: Sure.
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  Speaker 2: What we used to do is work out a time.
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  Speaker 2: We'd say, all right, we're a certain distance from Melbourne.
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  Speaker 2: It'll take X amount of time for the helicopter to
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  Speaker 2: get here. They only had one helicopter in those days,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: so everything was planning around what they could do. We'd go, right,
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  Speaker 2: they're going to take forty five minutes to get the
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: helicopter here. We must be undercover inside that forty five minutes.
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  Speaker 2: That might mean you're well into the scrub where you
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: can't be found, or it's going to be hard. The
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: closer it is to darkness, obviously, the safer it is.
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  Speaker 2: I'll give you an example, when you're a kid and
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: you're playing hiding. If you run out the front door
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: in daylight, they can see you running up the street.
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  Speaker 2: You run outside at nighttime and you get behind one
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: lamp post and you are gone. And what I know,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't talk like this, but the art to arm
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: robbery is doing the arm robbery them seeing you at
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: some point of time, but then there's a point of
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: time where you just vanish.
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  Speaker 1: Right. We're not advocating a lift style as a robber
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  Speaker 1: because it's changed a lot. You must walk into banks now,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: and it'd be like Butch Cassidy walking into the bank
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of which casting and sinance Kidney. He goes,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: what happened to the old bank? It was so beautiful
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: and the guard says people kept robbing it, And he says,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: small price to pay for beauty. I mean, it's another
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: thing looking at banks today and you realize that a
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: lot of the security measures that are there today are
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: because of people like you.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, they kept updating in the seventies and eighties. As
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: things go down, then you manipulated what you could do
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: back when the screens for us came in. Because of
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: my background as a bank teller, I would pick banks
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: that I knew the security was low.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: I'd be able to tell when the alarms had gone off.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: So my information was probably even better than my brothers
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: because we cased our own final casing of a bank.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: But they had to keep improving things, and they've got
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: to the limit now that we're all out of business.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Except I'm a bit too old to jump counters anyway.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: But that's the same as crime evolves. If you go
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: through the eras you used to rob saves out of factories,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: then you do this, and you do that, and then
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: a period back you had kids knocking off people standing
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: at eight ms. Now you have home invasions. It's all
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: because if the banks weren't as protected, now those kids
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: might be robbing banks.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's all changed. And when you look at what happened,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: you and your brother started off partners in crime. But
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: the fundamental differences between you quickly began to assert themselves.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Tell us how this happened.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Well, he became an ego junkie to the robberies. He
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: also became an ego junkie to the media because he
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: had read the newspaper and they'd say something like, oh,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: the after Bark band, it hasn't struck in three months.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: You go, oh, show them.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: He did one bank three times to show that he
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: could do getaways in three different directions. So I'll take
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: it to one very important part of my life. I
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: was after the warming bank. I was sitting under a
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: gum tree and I was counting thirty nine, nine hundred
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: and something while the helicopter buzzed around it, and I went,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Jesus enough to buy two houses in North Danny Long.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: And I thought about that for a minute, and then
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: I thought about my brother's ego. And that was when
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: I decided not to rob anymore banks, because what I
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: realized by looking at my brother, if I continued, I
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: was an ego junkie too, and I didn't like that thought.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: It was supposed to be about money, and I'll say
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: right from the start, I was lured by the money.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Once we got into it, but to think that it
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: became part of your lifestyle or part of your ego,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: that's really bad.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: And I opted out.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: And then we started having some very serious fistfights, even
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: guns drawn, because I wanted him to stop because he
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: would get his caught of killed, which is almost what
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: happened indeed.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: And you were very competitive because that thirty nine thousand
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: dollars hall that you got was the biggest of all
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: your jobs. And Peter who fancied himself as the professional
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: and you as the dilettante who was just doing it
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: for fun. Almost he said Beginner's luck.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Well, even when he got caught by the coppers, and
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: let's say involved a fair bit of our lives in
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: the questioning room, he even was telling them, I'm my brother,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: was just Beginner's luck, and like I'm the main man,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I'm the after Dark Bandit. And he doesn't like Jeff
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Wilkinson who nicknamed in the after Dark Bandit, but he
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: loves to be called it. And he's told press all
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: over the world that there's only one after Dark Bandit.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: And my words to that is you can take it, brother,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: because I'm Doug Morgan.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: There you go. And there was a moment which I
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: think you regret also where you did a lot off
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: a warning shot with your buck shot. It bounced off
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: the pavement, I think, and it struck someone in the mouth.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: What happened was he kept following this night and yelled
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: out stop police, and I turned around to face him,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: and my shotgun wasn't loaded, so I couldn't fire a
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: warning shot. I ducked into a lane way and leaned
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: against the paling fence and had a breather because I
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: was running pretty hard to keep in front of him.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And I loaded the shotgun which had buckshot in, walked
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: back out onto the roadway and it was nighttime, so
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: we just under one lamp post I was under another
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: with the light on, and I said, if you don't
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: stop chasing me, i'll shoot you, and he said, we'll
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: go on your bastard, And I thought, this guy's pushing
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: me to the limit here, so I aimed at him,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: but then dropped the gun to the right and forward,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: probably about five meters to one side and about fifteen
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: meters short. But the buck shot bounced on the bitchman.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: One hit him in the chest and one hit him
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: in the lip. And when I saw his head go down.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, what's happened because I know
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: where I shot at.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: In the newspapers they said I.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Shot a man, and I believe that till the day
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: I got caught that I'd actually hit him. One hit
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: his lip and didn't penetrate the lip. But what happened
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: after that is incredible. That was a talkey I used
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: to travel through the paddocks of that.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: It took me hours and hours to get back to Geelong.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: When I get back to Geelong, my brother's heard that's
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: on the radio, somebody's been shot. So he lines me
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: up with his gun while he was going to murder
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: you a car park and he's going to shoot me
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: because I've broken the rules of not shooting. So he,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: being the boss, was going to punish me by shooting
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: me for firing a warning shot. And even now I think,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: so I can't fire a warning shot, but he can
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: shoot me.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: So that shows the sort of partnership we had.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: By this time, the police are getting very very interested
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: in you, and you are remembered by the Task Force
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Operation rim Fire. All the cops are looking for you.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: What's that like when you're the state's most wanted man
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and there's two of you.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Well, you don't sleep. I couldn't sleep at the farm
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: because I had a long driveway, but I also had
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: a bend in the road right at my driveway, so
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: every car or truck going from Foster at nighttime to
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Toura would slow down on my bend. So I ended
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: up basically leaving home and ruined my marriage, which I
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: really regret because that affected my children not so much.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: You can always get another wife, but you can't get
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: new children.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Well you can, but they're expensive, so you stick with
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: the ones you've got.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: And as I sat on the weekend, I spent time
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: with my grandchildren. So we've rebuilt our lives and our relationships.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: But what it's like is you know your life is ruined.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: You know you can't go on a building site and
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: you can't concentrate. So crime it's sort of a bit
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: like Heroin in a way, I suppose where it can
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: ruin your life and it totally takes over everything. And
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: that's why my theme now, even sitting here, all I
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: can think about is what a wasted time crime is,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: and that what I believe is is putting it up
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: there and telling people what the consequences are and if
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: they want to rob banks or do drugs, I can't
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: stop them, but I'd like people to know the consequences.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: You knew the consequences because by the way, you and
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Peter both married women called Pamela, which I think is cute,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: and neither one told their wives what they were up to,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: kept it away from your families.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Well, people asked me why my wife didn't know, and
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: I'll be totally honest, I thought, well, what would happen
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: if we get divorced in five years and she knew
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I was a bank robber?
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: So I really believe I grew up as a ridgie
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: ditch crook with my father that you shouldn't be involving other.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: People because one day she'll give you up.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, if you're a crook.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: It's like I even see movies and they talk about
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: you've got to be ready to move in fifteen minutes
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: or something like that. I am a total believer. If
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: you're going to be a crook, you don't have a
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: real life as such.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: This could never go on forever, and the bigger the jobs.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Peter was much more ambitious than you. There were times
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: when you actually pulled out of jobs because you could
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: possibly see what's going to happen in the future. What
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: was going on there.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not a natural arm robber. It's not my
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: personality to pointing guns of people. If I pick a
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: gun up, all I'm but is it could go off
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: by mistake. And I've been shot at by a screw
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: when I was trying to escape, and one of my
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: thoughts was, I hope he is a good shot, so
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: he either aims to miss or aims to kill. And
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: I've had Peter's gun at the back of my head once.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: So I was never really wanting to be an armor robber.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: I started off as my brother's assistant. He kept pushing
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: him and pushing me for me to do the front job,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: be the front man, because he said that's what I
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: had to do. It's almost like saying, you're raiding the pantry,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: you've got to eat one of the biscuits. So mom
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: can't tell me, I feel she'll have to tell us
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: both off. Look, I'm a stand up guy, and look,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: my belief about armed robbers is their bloody laborers. If
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: they could do anything decent, they wouldn't have to carry
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: a gun.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: That's right. And in the end it did bring you
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: to grief because as much as Peter disliked what you
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: did faring on that policeman, he also did the same thing.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: And that was the beginning of then what happened there.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Well, see when i I'm firing, I'm actually still in
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: control because I'm twenty yards away. My brother three times
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: pushed the pistol that was evidence from the first job
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: into the stomach of three different coppers. One on one
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: bank shob There was a copper in his car, I think,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: and my brother got.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: Him out of the car.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Then on the day when he shot Kosh, he's let
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Kosh get right up to him, and when they started struggling,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: he shoved the gun into his stomach. Gun went off.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Nobody knows except for remember brother, if it meant to
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: go off. Then the next day he shoved the same
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: gun into another policeman's stomach who was unarmed. Look, if
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: you ask me what's the gun for, it's for shooting
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: rabbits and warning people. Now, you don't have to stick
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: it right into somebody if you're going to do a
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: warning shot in the lane way. The copper was unarmed,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Peter could see was unarmed. He didn't have a belt
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: on with a gun. Peter should have pulled his gun
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: fifteen feet before the copper got to him.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Then Peter would have left the area.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: But the whole thing stemmed from over confidence because there
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: he was in Heathcoat, being the same bank for a
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: third time, and he's seeing the policeman Kosh lapping in
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the block as certain ittable. He thinks, in the interim,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: I'll dive in and rob the bank for the third time.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: By the way, take the orange dats in that's owned
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: by one of the tellers as they get away cup
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: for the second time, and she must have been horrified.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: But Kosh turns up earlier than expected, and a struggling.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Kosh was doing laps and he just four point thirty
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: days last lap and he was going to go back
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: to the station and finish.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: He decided to do one more lap.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: But I'll give you a example of my brother's ego
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: taking over, and he's over confidence. He was watching a
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: tab one night and he was trying to rob it
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: and the copper was doing laps. We were so hot,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: they were doing laps all the time. My brother waited
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: to the copper ran out of petrol and went to
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: the local petrol station. As soon as he was filling
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: his car up, my brother the tab. That's how hot
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: he was working.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: The copper obviously couldn't chase him because he was filling
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: his car, but Kosh could come back. And that's what
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: got cost shot because my brother let him get too close.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: When Kosh did confront him, and even the mask from
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: my brother wore brought him undone. Once you pull a
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: full headed mask over your head, you can't walk away.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: If you're sitting in the street, you're done. And even
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: for me, I wouldn't wear that. I used to wear
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: a sailing jacket and I'd wander around Warbot in the
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: winter and everybody else had sailing jackets and hoodies on.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: And at the last minute, as I'm about to walk
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: into the bank, I'd pull a scarf up like a cowboy,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: because I knew if you're wearing one of those masks
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: from the vic market or wherever, you can't walk down
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: a street.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Your relationship with Peter was already very fractured. I think
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: just prior to this time, you've gone to the races
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: together in his hot car, he's got the boot full
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: of guns and money and so forth. He looks around,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: you disappear, goes to the car park, finds his hot
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: car is gone, and you are as well. Gets home
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: to find the vehicle is there with the doors open,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: the briefcase full of money, and the guns are gone.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: What happened, Well, I'd mentioned earlier how he was pushing
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: me to do more jobs, and what he started saying.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: We had an agreement right at the start the person
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: who was the assistant gets one third of the take
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: and the person in the arm, Robbie, gets two thirds.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: He started saying, you've only done a third of the
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: jobs I've done.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: You're a parasite. You're living off my earnings.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: And he was really giving it to me because for
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: the first time in his life he was the master
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: of the twins. In his opinion, what he was was
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: an ego out of control. So he kept pushing me
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: and pushing me. And if you start killing me a parasite,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get my back up. And when you're
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: looking in the man's only calls you a parasite, you
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: either hit him or you do something to stop him
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: doing it. So I thought, all right, I'll do a job.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: I'm going to take your car for a drive, get
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: another set of keyscut while I'm driving it, and next
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: time we go to the races, I'm going to take
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: whatever's in the boot and show you that I'm not
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: scared of you and you might not be the master
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: you think you are. And then after that, when he
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: was looking for me, I've rung him and I've said
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I'll have a meeting with you. I'll give you back
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: your prize position, a little gun, and I'll give you
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: back half the money. I met him, I wasn't armed.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I gave him his gun, which proved I wasn't scared
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: of him, and I gave him half the money.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: And so there you go. He never called me a
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: parasite again.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Called the other names though, we'll get to those. But
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: after the shooting of Kosh, the end was always going
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: to come quickly. How did it come?
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Well?
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: The next day? We had everything planned so well. He
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: got out of the search area, got past the roadblocks,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: and he was supposed to stay out of church and
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: sleep that night under the church. He's never actually spent
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: any nights in the scrub. He's always got out that night.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: He stayed the first night so it was too cold.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: This is what he told people in the media. And
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: then he hit hiked into Binioh. I questioned all this.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I asked him once, why did you leave our safe
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: spot where you were and you'd eating the roadblocks? He said,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I shot one of them. They're going to kill me.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: And I just looked at him, laughed and said, well
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: you started it.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: And if he.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Didn't know, you started though, to be fair, dug didn't
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: you father?
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: First?
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Well he shot somebody. Once you shoot a copper, they're
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: going to aim you up. So don't act like a pussy.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: If you want to do stuff like that, you men
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: are And if he had a state at that point,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: he wouldn't have got it getarrested because I couldn't get
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: in that morning. I went to roadblocks and had to
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: turn around, so I couldn't get him out of the
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: area the next morning, which was my deal. So everying
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: was planned twenty four hour later, I'll come and get
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: you if it's still too hot twenty four hours.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: But he was running scared. Now what I question about
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: his logic.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: He hitchhikes on the main road from Heathcirt to Benigo Benn.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: He goes the biggest town, so the police will be
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: traveling that road, So he's hits you going on the
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: road the police will be traveling on what I don't like,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: and I will never agree to. He gets into a
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: car with a woman and child. Now what say they
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: get Paul eddaver because there's another roadblock further up that
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: he doesn't know about. Does he use the woman and
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: the child as a hostage? Do they get shot in crossfire?
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: These are the things that broke our relationship totally up
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: because he did things that were far beyond what we'd
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: planned or what morally we could accept.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: So that rift is still there.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I cannot cope with those things because you put the
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: public in danger because you were too lazy to carry
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: out our getaway plan.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Peter was apprehended after a struggle with another police officer,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: who people say he tried to shoot. It was only
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: then that they realized there wasn't one bandit, there was
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: two and they're identical twins. How did they learn about
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: your involvement?
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: All false?
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: What the media thinks and what people have been saying
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: is they found a photo of me in my brother's
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: house when they searched his house. Peter never had that
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: photo on his mantelpiece. I've never had a photo of
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Peter on my mantel piece. They must have went to
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: draws to find that. Why were they looking in draws
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: for photos when they've got their man. Now I've actually
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: asked Peter why he gave me up. He told me
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: he was going to give me up the last time.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: We had a fistfight and he put a gun at
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: the back of my head and he said, if I
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: get done, you're going And I said, your kid naun't you.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: When I was sitting on the run after he got caught,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: I didn't believe he would give me up because I
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: thought he was just giving me a hard time. I
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: asked him once, why did you give me up? And
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: this is what he told me, many many many years ago,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: not now with.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: A media hype. He said.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I tried to tell them shooting Kosh was an accident.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Then they said, what about the shooting at Torquay which
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: was yours which was mine? He said, oh, I can't
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: have two accidental shootings, can I judge is not going
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: to wear that one now.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: Peter didn't know that the first one.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: The bloke wasn't hurt, so they use that against him
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: to scare him, and by scaring him were two shootings.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: He gave me up, and I'm going to say that
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: him giving you up saved at least one of your lives,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: because you fellas were headed for disaster. Like you said,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: when you shoot a cop, they all come after you,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: and they don't mind if you're carried out in a
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: body bag at the end of the day.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: What I do know is that if he hadn't given
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: me up and they found out I was involved, I
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: would be marked. What I also know through what they
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: learned from him. I won't say it was him, but
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: some people were asked, what will Doug do now that
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: you've got his brother and your brother's on the run.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: They wanted to know which banks I would hit next.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: They might have got information to know which banks I
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: would hit to raise money to get out of Australia,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: and the word was that if I walked into one
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: of those banks, I was dead. It's as simple as that.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: It got pretty heavy. And what happens is the police
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: know how to work people. They're good at their job.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: When they get you in a room and they'll use
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of pressure. My brothers talked about when they
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: had him in the helicopter that they threatened to throw
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: him out of the helicopter. He's talked about when he's
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: been questioned at how petrol in the room, All sorts
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: of little tricks that they play, and anybody that knows,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: and like, there's old stories where they used to hang
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: people out of the Russell Street windows, and I've actually
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: asked people about it, and I actually believe it's true
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: that there was a particular copper that used to dangle
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: people out of a window and unless you started talking,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: but they never dropped anybody, So everybody used to talk obviously.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: That's right. I think there's more than one that used
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: to do similar tactics. Actually, but then again, it was
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: a war back then, and you talk to the In fact,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: I know a bank teller who has robbed a couple
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: of times in the early eighties and developed terrible post
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: traumatic stress from having guns poked in his face twice.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: So these were traumatic, big headline crimes. And then you
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: top it off by having a cop get shot in
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: one of these. Are they going to get a light sentence?
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: The pair of you? What happened when you're front of
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: the magistrate or the judge.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Well, it's actually very interesting what happens with the legal system,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: and it should be shown in educational sorts of things.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Coppers make a deal with me. I won't sign any
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: statements that they make their statements for me off my
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: brother's statements, and I refuse to sign. I would sit
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: there all day and they'd make statements. How that sounded,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I go whatever. Every statement of mine that was made
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: by a different copper has different.
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: Wording because it wasn't my words.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: After about ten days, I said, do you give me
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: back money cars et cetera, et cetera. I'll sign, all right,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: but I want to deal. They said, all right, we'll
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: give you a fifteen with a twelve. And people don't
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: know this is what really goes on. We'll give you
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: a fifteen with a twelve. You're happy, Hell, I'm happy.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I'll sign right now.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: That's a fifteen year head sentence with twelve on the
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: bottom is a minimum.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Right, So they say to me, this is what's going
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: to get I gave a court and I get a
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: fifteen with a twelve. Copper's got me the fifteen with
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: it twelve. What did Peter get he got about a
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: seventeen worth of twelve sting. He got a little bit
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: more for all the things and shooting a copper and
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: all this sort of stuff, right.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: And he gave you up and didn't get any discount
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: for that.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Well, he probably should have got a lot more, and
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: he got a discount maybe.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: My mother comes in to see me at Penridge and
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: she says, you know, you can get a smaller sentence
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: if you work with the arm robbers and give them
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: some money.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Now, my mother's never lied to me in my life.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: And I looked her and said, I wouldn't give a
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: cent to corrupt police. I don't know if it was
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: true or not. That's what my mother said. And I
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: have no doubt my mother was telling me the truth.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: A lot of corruption and police forces all over the world.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Why should Melbourne be any different.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: Now?
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: The thing is, they give me a fifteen or twelve,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: they're good for the deal. Jeff Wilkinson and Jeff Is
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: admitted to this former Herold Sam Journo as well. He's
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: having a beer with all the top cops one night
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: and they decided that Dougie Morgan should get a bit
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: of extra time because he didn't get punished enough. While
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: they're having a before the Crown's time of appeal runs out,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Jeff Wilkins wrote an article and he admits he deliberately
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: sat forward to get me a longer sentence. He writes
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: an article that the public is outcry of my small
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: twelve year sentence and get out in eight years. They
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: started carrying on in the media about you shouldn't get remission,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: you shouldn't get this. Well, everybody else gets it, why
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: shouldn't I get it. What happens is the Crown see
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: all these articles, they appeal and they give me a
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: twenty over seventeen. So now I'm going to do twelve
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: years roughly. Now, I asked Jeff when I got out
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: of jail, Hey, Jeff, so what do you do. Do
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: you do a public survey? No, we were just having
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: a drink. We decided you should get more time. So
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: I said, so, you actually told a lie in the
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: newspaper that you should have just said it was me
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: and the boys. That's how the legal system works and
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: the media works. Now, I'm not saying the media is
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: bad because I'm the bank robber. Once I become a
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: bank Robber. It's open slather on poor old Dougie, and
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: I accept that, and that's part of my responsibility in
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: rebuilding my life. I have been to Jeff's house, I've
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: had meals with Jeff. I have no animosity at all.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: But at the time that moment he told me that,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: I went, I don't think that's fair, Jeff, but such
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: is life.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Well, it wasn't as if you robbed a Lully store,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: was it. Look, you probably deserve what you've got. But
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: there you are behind the bluestone walls of the College
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: of Knowledge Pentridge Prison. You'd never been in custody before,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: had no criminal record. You're amongst some of the heaviest
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: criminals of your generation, and you're the after Dark Beannit
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: or at least part of the duo. How are you treated?
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Everybody treats me the same. They don't know what they do.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: But see, I actually set my jail up by mistake.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: When I walked into the yard, there was Chuck Bennett
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: and the boys, and they're playing cards and made Jack
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Bennett and Robert Robber. He supposedly did the bookie robbery
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Buck in the seventies. Supposedly, I don't know if he
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: was convince, I'm not going to put him in anyway.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: So he was one of the boys.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: He had his crew there, and I just walked in
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: and went, well, I don't need to hang out with
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: those And I sat on a bench in the sun
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: and I'm just sitting there, and slowly people came and
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: sat next to me. Over the next days or so,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: so I just had guys and we never talked about crime.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: I'm not into that stuff. My brother used to hang
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: around with the big boys.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: But my jail thought of went in one direction. I
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: think it started one day when they were carrying out
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: a body and I was looking at the body being
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: carried out. I thought it was Dad, and the screw
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: standing next to me said it only be one thing
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: better if it was you or your brother.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: So I king hit him. Not a good thing.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: The king hit the screw after h division. No, what
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: happened was I moved down to where our meals the
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: area was. All the screws are at the other end.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Just they had me surrounded. There's nowhere to go in jail.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: Anyway.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: After about ten minutes, that screw that I hit came
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: down and said, I've been told to apologize by the governor. Now,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: I don't take myself that I'm that good. What I
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: realized straight away was we've got a one hundred and
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: fifty criminals in the yard of body's being carried out.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: One guy's fired up and hit a screw for saying
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: something stupid. What the governor would have been worried about
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: was a lot more violence during that day towards the screws,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: if they beat the crap out of me. So I
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: think the governor made a wise move. I think people
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: started to go, well, this brother is a little bit haywire.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: But what happened over my journey in jail, I kept
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: standing up to the system, and I think the heavy
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: started to go. I got given up a few times
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: by some of the heavies. So I started building a
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: reputation and even Jeff Wilks and people like that. Probably
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I set myself up that people go, well, he's a
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: stand up boy, so just leave him alone. And if
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: you cross me my attitude as well. Today somebody's going
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: to get hurt, and so be it. Because what I
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: learned pretty quick was I used to jokingly say to
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: people my football team was tougher than this. We had
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: fights that both teams were in like the old days.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: I have never used a weapon on anybody, not in jail,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: not in anywhere. I'm a stand up boy. If you
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: say something, I'll punch you, and I'll punch that screw
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: again today. If you said that again, I didn't give
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: us stuff. That's what he deserved. What I didn't realize
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: is I had no respect for a uniform ideal with men.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Just because you've got a uniform on, don't treat me
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: like trash.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: And that attitude got you put in h division, the
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: punishment division seven times. It's almost a record, I think.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: Well, possibly, but there was always for investigation. I was
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: investigated for stealing eight hundred dollars out of a safe.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: I was investigated for four sticks of Jelig Knight. So
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: I actually got the painterwork.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: On four sticks of Jelig Knight inside jail.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I ended up pretty well running my life and air.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I read a book was called King Rat. It was
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: about prisoners of war in Japanese war cams. And you
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: know when all the movies there's always a guy who's
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: got the cigarettes.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: I want to be that guy. I want to be
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: the mover.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: So I started selling stuff or selling paintings and getting
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: cigarettes and selling the cigarettes. I helped move escape equipment
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: around the jail. I helped my brother get a porter power.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: We moved a porter power from one part of the
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: jail to another part of the jail to bend bars
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: with for his escape. So I very much became the
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: go to boy. And if people wanted to get all
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: owned up. Now when the girls are in the annex
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: right next to B Division, some of the boys had
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: come Dougie, can you get into the annex because you're
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: a carpenter and you used to work in one gang.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: They had heard that the girls needed shelves to put
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: their TVs on in the new cells.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: I said, yeah, I'll go and see.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: One gang and get a job there and I'll be
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: able to get into the annex. So what I did,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: I went and got the job so I could deliberately
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: get into the annex, so I could take drugs into
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: the annex. What I did was I made myself a toolbox,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: like the old fashioned wooden one with a handle across
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: the top. It had a false compartment, so I used
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: to get the drugs from the boys, and B Division
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: put him in my toolbox and take him into the
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: annex to their girlfriends. Now, one day, one of the
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: overseers from one gang, I mean his name, I just
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: remember his name right now. We were walking up to
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: the annex and put a shelf up for a TV
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: and the dog squad was in the annex and I've
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: got drugs in my toolbox. He looked at me and said,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: do you reckon? You should have a coffee. I said yes,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: I'd like to go into BE Division where I lived. Oh,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have a coffee. So I go into
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: BE Division. Now I can't take the tools to myself,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: so I went into the B division to the circle.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I looked at the screw and going, look, I'm just
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: going to grab a coffee and I'm going in the
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: annex in a minute. But they're not ready for me yet.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Can you look after my tools for me? So the
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: screws looked after my drugs and tools while I had
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: a coffee.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Nice one. So I think the statute of limitations may
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: have run out, so you could be safe on that one.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: They can come for me.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: But somewhere in your long stretch, your heart changed. A
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: lot of guys went into Pentridge particularly h division went
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: in as a bicycle thief, came out as a very serious,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: pathological murderer. What happened to you in there that changed
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: your life?
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Well, go back to where I said under that tree,
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: looked at my brother's ego. I decided that day never
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: to be a bank robbery again. I never carried a
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: gun after that. I never robbed a bank after that.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: I assisted him on the last job. I didn't want to,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: and I said, I'm not going to assist you, and
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you the truth if I assisted him because
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: a friend of mine wanted ten thousand dollars to buy
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: a trailer for a semi My brother wanted to do
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: a job, and that's why I helped him in the
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: last job. But I did very little, and that's why
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: he got caught. I always looked upon the jail as
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: the gap in my life between going back out and
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: having a life and actually living up to my ability.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: So the jail to me was just not part of
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: the crimes. But I probably had more fun or more
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: anti social while I was in jail than on the outside,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: because I didn't like the system. It was too brutal
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: for what it was meant to be. Too many young
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: people hung themselves. Too many young people got raped. Now
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: people talk about jails, and I'm involved with the National
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Trust and tours and stuff like that over the past.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Don't do it anymore. And people say, what's the jail?
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Like I go, jail is not a jail. You put
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: criminals into a room. That's a jail. The creams inside
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: the jail and the screws with the buttons, the men
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: on both sides of the jail, they're the violence, they're
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: the intimidation, they're the stress. Right now, what happens is
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: am I joking about this? Because most creams will talk, oh, jail,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: and they're so bad, and they treat us like this,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: And I openly say this to people. They go So
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: when you reflect, now, what do you see about the jail?
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: I copped a few buttons and got my heads from
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: bashed into the concrete a couple of times, but that
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: wound heals. No button has ever busted me. What busted
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: me was what I did.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: To my children, correct, But also the things that happened
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: to other people that you were witnessed too. You talk
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: about the eight or ten young men who suicided while
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: you're in there. You talk about when Jimmy Lofton, who
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: came to fame by stabbing chopper later on, but you
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: saw him cutch someone's throat and the blood went on you. Yep,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: these things are wounds that never heal.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, but there.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: I spent three years as a volunteer after the Black
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: sat Day bushfires. I have more feeling for those victims
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: than the bloker got his throat cut, because if you
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: weren't in jail, you didn't get the throat cut, because
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: he was a reasonably big time crew. But the problem
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I have with jail was I wear this beard. I
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: grew that in jail and refused to shave and did.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Then nextra six months jail for that beard because they
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: told me I couldn't have a beard because of lice,
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: but I could have five showers, ten hours a day.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: That rule was nineteen hundred and one. Now I'll give
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: you an example. I didn't like jail. They moved me
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: from D Division. You're supposed to stay there till your sentence.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: I got kicked out of D Division. I spent two
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: weeks in the condemn yard by myself. That held me there,
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: which was a great time to reflect being in the
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: condemn yard, knowing Ronald Ryan was the last one hung there.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: When I get to a division, I walk into a
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: di v's and I see the chief and the governor
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: because they talked to you when you get there. And
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: I said, oh, can I have a TV? I'm doing
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: a long time. And they said, no, you can't have
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: a TV. You've got to be a lifer. There was
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: a cells on the bottom of a division. On the
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: bottom tier, they all had TVs and the other one
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: hundred prisoners had no TVs.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: I went, why are they different?
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: So if the public knew that people that had killed
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: people were getting better treatment than somebody who sold a car,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: they'd be amazed.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: Do you know, I said the governor. I said, no,
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: I want a TV. They got TV.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: I want a TV. I believed in equal rights. He said,
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: you're not doing life. You've got to be doing life.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Said you know, I said toweenm flippantly. I said, give
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: me five minutes. I'll be back from a TV. He
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: gave me a TV. But what I learned was the
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: system was wrong because it made class distinctions. Now I'll
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: tell you that the A division was run by the
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: drama group. In those days now. The governor loved the
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: drama group because it brought in revenue they gave to charity,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: made the jail look good. Do you know who had
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: control anybody who had control of the drama group, the prisoner.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: He had God all mighty power over the rest of
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: the prisoners in a division because he was the top man,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: because the governor looked after him. The man that ran
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: the drama group when I got there was Keith Riary,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: a child molester. He had the best selling a division,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: a child molester.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Life is not fair, especially inside jail. But you developed
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: a fierce disdain for authority in there. You're an ext
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: bank robber, You've shot some of them on the run and
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. You come out a lot
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: of people with your profile, spent about five minutes on
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: the outside, full foul of the law, and go back
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: in again. Why didn't you?
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Because I was sticking to what I believed and I
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: was going to go straight. When I walked out of prison,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: I looked over my shoulder, I still remember it, looked
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: over my left shoulder and said, war was over.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: Boys.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: And I went home and within three days I was
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: working in the may Max factory. At Daninong on the
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: two o'clock start shift making us and I rebuilt my life.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: I got day leaves. In the last couple of months
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: of my jail. I didn't go home to have a
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: party with my wife or girlfriend. I went and did
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: car lessons. So I get a new license because I
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: lost it because I was a carfief. So everything I
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: was doing, even learning to paint and raise money and
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: selling cigarettes to raise money, everything I did was for
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: one aim, my next adventure.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: And you've worked with at risk youth as well. You've
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: tried to give back, You've stayed straight all these years.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: How do you reflect on the decisions now? You think
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: of the wasted time robbing banks and doing all that jail.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: What do you think life would have held for you otherwise?
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: If I wasn't a banker, HM probably be pretty boring. Really,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: I'd just be a carpenter. I'm a very good carton,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: better cartoner than a bank robber. But look at it
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: this way, Adam, what power do I have now? I
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: have the experience and the stories that young people take
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: notice of what I say. You have no idea I
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: have young people even out of pantries. I'll walk up
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: to a group at school, kids like high school kids
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: that are having a coffee or whatever, or a donut
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: or something in the grounds of pantries from the nearby schools,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: and I'll go, hey, come and sit down, and they'll
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: look at me and go, you want to talk to
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: an old bank robber. They google me straight away and
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: see I'm being serious, and they ask totally on the
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: edge of every word I say, and at the end
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: of every conversation, I'll tell them live up to your potential,
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: don't waste it. And the other thing is, I'll quote
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: some footballers in a strange way. I can be a
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: role model. And I even look at it, even driving
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: down here today. There's very few crims like that have
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: done what I've done or been involved with the things
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: in pentries, that will stand there and go all that
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: is got to help somebody. So in that case, like
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: I've done, letchures at vic Uni to the law students
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: and all I asked from them was that one of
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: them in that room would think about how they can
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: change things for the better. I said, then the job
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: will be worthwhile. Otherwise it's just money. I used to
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: go to Raven Hall Prison before the pandemic, and I
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: was the warm up act talking to the prisoners and
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: tell them what jobs they could give them when they
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: get out. My opening words to the prisoners was, I'm
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: very sad. I am really sad today to see you here.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: I'm old enough to be your grandfather or your father,
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: and you are failing. You've got to be better crooks
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: or stop doing it. I'm not here to tell you
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: can't be a crook, but if you're a bad crook,
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: stop doing it. Because what my belief is, I will
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: never say to somebody, don't do this because you're hurting people.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: That will not work.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: You have to say to people, don't do this because
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: you're going to hurt yourself.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: You put your life together again, admirably, repaired your relationship
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: with your children. You're able member of society. There's one
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: unfinished piece of business. Your ole partner in crime, your
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: brother you don't talk to at all, and you fire
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: potshots at each other. Do you think there's a day
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: where you might be able to patch that one up.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I hadn't spoken to him for two years and
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: it was going to be a documentary, so they contacted
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: him and then he rang me to see if he
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: wanted to do it with me, and I said to him,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: only do it if there's something in it for you,
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: because they're going to take you to town again.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: So I actually gave him advice.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: But during those conversations, for about a week or two weeks,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: I realized that I don't want to be involved with
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: documentaries that highlight only too much on the crimes. And
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: I actually told my brother, I said, don't worry. We've
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: had a lot of fistfights. And he hit me on
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: the head with lumps of timber and tried to stab me.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: And I've heard of his bullets whistle past me as well.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: So we won't get into all that. And do you
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: know what I said to him, I said, I'm not
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: angry at you've forgiven me up, because they would have
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: shot me anyway.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: So he did you a favor, I reckon, well, I
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: actually we all carry what we've done now.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: I would imagine the press. Have you mentioned it today?
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: He gave me up. That must hurt him. I know that,
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: so deep down I do feel sorry for him. But
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: all I ever wanted for him was sorry, Doug, I weakened.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I knew you would, but everyone does in the end.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: That's the fallacy of all this staunchness. Eventually, when you're
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: in custody facing a long stretch, they all do it.
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: Well, guess what.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: I've sat in hatavision cells doing time and hastivision for
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: other people who had actually given me up. And you
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: know what I thought to myself, Well, I'm above that person,
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: aren't I.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: I've got a bit of morals.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe maybe he will come to you and say
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, ask for forgiveness. What about you forgiving him?
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: Well, have I told him that I know? And you've
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: said it to me, and you've said it now if
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: they had just got him, he didn't follow the plans
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: how we were going to beat all this, so he
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: brought it undone.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: All right, once it's undone, it's gone. Now.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Everybody that knows us knew we worked together on the
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: building sites. Knew we did everything together except when we
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: were punching on then we'd have about a week apart.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: We had some really good nights on buildings sides. Don't
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: worry about that. Tried to run over me one night
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: with his car, so it used to get pretty heated,
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: but that's life.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: We've been punching on since we'll four.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: And the thing is, everybody would have said if they
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: once he's was known on TV that he's the after
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: dark banded, everybody would have been jumping up and ringing
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: the police and going, you better have a look at
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: his brother. So I would have been gone, and I
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: already had the police on my back from when I
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: was a bank teller. When I left the bank there
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: was supposedly money disappeared.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Oh another bank robbery that we can add to your Telly.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: Now I beat that. When I'm a good talker, good Doug.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: It's an absolute pleasure talking to you, And I think
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: next time I have you here, my dream, my wish
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: is to have the other after that bandit sitting next
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: to you, think it's a possibility.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: We were like what he would say, What he would
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: say to me, not to you? Why should I make
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: those bastards any money?
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, the reconciliation is a tantalizing thought though,
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: my friends.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Well see the reason. I'll tell you why I do it.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: I think that I go okay, the media. What people
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: have to understand the media. I can live off crime,
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: and criminals can't live off crime. That's the law. But
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: what I realize is I've already said it today. My
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: life was wasted that period, but it came good because
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: I've now got the power to do something so that
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: makes my wasted life worthwhile. That's why I'm here today.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not here for dollars. I don't care about the
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: dollars because dollars will not help anybody else. All they'll
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: do is I'll probably go to the races tomorrow. And
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: because I used to joke only, I used to be
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: a big gambler, but it's a lot harder when it's
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: your own money.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Indeed, Well, thanks for your time, Dog really appreciate it.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure and I hope that we're to
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: a few people or people have listened to us that
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: will think about living up to their potential.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: That was Doug Morgan, one part of the After Dark
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Bandit there were two of them, identical twins. It's one
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: of the great Australian story. There should be a film
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: about it. In my opinion, one day someone will make
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: a film. In the meantime, it's been absolute pleasure to
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: talk to Doug Morgan today. If you have any stories,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: please let us know. Send me an email on Adam Shanner,
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: writer at gmail dot com. If you want to call
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: crime stop as you can, but call me first. If
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: you don't mind to send me an email first, I
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: let it hand to triple three, triples zero. This has
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: been a real crime with Adam shann Thank you for listening.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: Make sure you subscribe and we'll talk to you next time.
• 55:43
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• 55:55
  Speaker 3: this story.
• 55:56
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• 55:59
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• 56:02
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• 56:06
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• 56:15
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