Latest / Mental Health and the Mission of the Church / The Crossroads of God's Power and People's Pain

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The Crossroads of God's Power and People's Pain · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I believe we need to start incorporating into our thinking it isn't love God, love others.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's love God, love self, love others.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's in the wrestling that we have to do to learn to love ourselves that we really learn the dynamic tension of learning to love other people.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I just found it makes a strategically powerful difference in the way you approach the person you see in the mirror and the people you encounter throughout your life.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: Fast forward about eight years, and I was in a full-blown mental health crisis.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: We were one of three people that I saw while I was in the hospital for a week.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: So we've walked through a lot of stuff.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't mind, Joey, let me stress something.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: You weren't just in the hospital, you were in the psychiatric ward of the hospital.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's different.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's different.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's dark, right?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's scary.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, it's Brittany Gardner, and we're excited about the mental health emission of the church podcast relaunch.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Chip sits down with his co-host Joey Svinson to talk a variety of subjects derived from his new book, Shades of Grace.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: This full recording session pushed up against two hours, so we're dropping weekly releases, each representing about 20 minutes of this power-packed, life-disrupting, change-causing discussion.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: In today's episode, Chip and Joey discuss this new season of the podcast, reflect on their relationship, and reminisce about Joey's trip to the mental hospital seven years ago.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Chip teaches all of us how performing and rule keeping keep us from the presence of God.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: He explains how the process of revelation is all about the revealer, not the receiver.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a leader who spends time ministering to God's children, you want to have some longevity to do so.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in the crossroads of God's power and people's pain, you'll never want to stop.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: This audio conversation was recorded in studio and can be watched on YouTube as well.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you live hungry for God and compassion for people, you could say it this way.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you live at the crossroads of God's power and people's pain, your life will never be boring.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: It'll never be boring.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you will see God at his absolute best.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: I would assume that if you're watching this, you know a little bit about him, but we are actually, Chip, how would you put it?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: We're just we're cranking up a new gear here.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: We're obviously in a nice studio.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to be recording from this studio on the regular, and we kind of have a new format for this podcast that we're going to play around with, starting with your new book.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're going to introduce uh what we're going to call mini book.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I jumped into a guy's uh resources recently.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: His name's Chris Stanley, and uh you can look him up if you want to, but he's got a whole series of books that are all built around the mini book model.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: What got my attention there was I find I I love to read.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I read all the time.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: I read uh You actually have a problem with buying books.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I do.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: If I have an addiction, that's one of them.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's it's not a bad addiction.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna have an addiction buying books, well, now that I can shift into the Kindle reader, they don't they're not filling shelf after shelf, which uh it doesn't settle well with my wife.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I what I've figured out, Joey, is when I read not fun books like a novel, but although it probably happens there too, but um, you know, a serious book, whether it's on counseling or leadership, most books, and forgive me, authors, don't mean to be ugly, but most books about a third of the way in, they've kind of said what they needed to say.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: I a lot of books I have to force myself to finish.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I ran into this concept of mini book.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And whereas, you know, some regular published books are anywhere from 30 to 100,000 words, mini books are five to twenty thousand words.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm excited about experimenting with a new format.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be in that range, five to twenty thousand words, more uh direct, more in your face.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: The goal being that you encounter the truth that I'm trying to communicate, not just read it and kind of, you know, get a gist of it.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there'll be discussion questions that you could use for your own journaling or small group discussion, whatever.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited about it.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna be different.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna, they're gonna be shorter, more condensed, uh, but I'm really, really excited about it.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other piece is the whole mental health mission of the church.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Mental health is all about all of this wonderful thing God created functioning together, spirit, soul, and body, um, where my mind and emotions function more like God intended them to.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: My body is sufficiently cared for that it supports my soul and my spirit, my brain.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when we say mental health, the mission of the church, we'll at times talk about things that don't seem like they're mental health or whatever.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: The book, this first book that we're gonna turn out, it's called Shades of Grace.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about grace, we're gonna talk about how you see yourself.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and what's the subtitle?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Seeing others, seeing others the way Jesus sees them, starting with yourself.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, or seeing people the way Jesus sees them, starting with yourself.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all built around Matthew 22.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus, what's the greatest commandment?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Love your neighbor, how, as yourself.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I believe we need to start incorporating into our thinking it it isn't love God, love others.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's love God, love self, love others.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because in it's in the wrestling that we have to do to learn to love ourselves that we really learn the dynamic tension of learning to love other people that are flawed, just like we are.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've just found it makes a strategically powerful difference in the way you approach the person you see in the mirror and the people you encounter throughout your life, including the one you sleep with if you're married.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I I've some recent conversations you and I have had.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'm learning the deeper, the deepest level I've ever learned some of what you're articulating.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's important context or helpful context for people to know that this mental health and mission of the church stuff, you and I have like walked it out from most significantly my mental health challenges.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: I want to say I was introduced to you from the pastor I was serving under from the mindset of, hey, this guy's really good at counseling.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: You should probably talk to him too.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because I was coming to him with mental health issues, and he's more on the pastoral side and was like, man, you got this Chip Judd guy.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that was probably my guess would be 2010, 2011, the first time we talked.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I came to Seacost in uh 2011.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: Fast forward about eight years, and I was in a full-blown mental health crisis.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: You were one of three people that I saw while I was in the hospital for a week.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: You were one of three people who actually understood what was going on in my brain.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've walked through a lot of stuff.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't mind, Joey, let me stress something.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: You weren't just in the hospital.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: You were in the psychiatric ward of the hospital.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's different.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's different.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's dark.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's scary.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh not a pleasant place to visit or inhabit.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: The the lady that was in the outpatient program that I was in, who she convinced me to go to the psychiatric hospital, she pulled some strings, got me into the addiction ward versus the personality.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a lot more of a tangent.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: So when I came to see you, that's where you was addiction ward.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I wasn't still pretty dark.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: It was, but I wasn't around people that are screaming.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: Which was, I would think, pretty helpful.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And Joey, what you're making reference to is I've been counseling in one form or another, pre-master's level training, uh as a just a pastor, but always wired that way.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, forgive me, but I guess it'd be fair to say a gift that God put in me.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I've been doing it one way or another for about 45 years.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: And my point being, everything we're going to talk about today and every episode we have, I think, it's been road tested.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I look back on some moments five years ago, 10, 15, 20, and with new things I've learned, I think, gosh, I could have handled that differently.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And probably we'll do the same thing five years from now.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: A continual growth curve, learning curve.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: But my point is it's it's always been where the rubber meets the road in what I call the guts and glory of people's lives.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, bottom line, Joey, is I I young people would ask me when I'd go up to Toronto and teach, they'd ask me, you know, hey, you know, you're an older dude.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: What, you know, what's the key to a long, long-term walk with God?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've ever heard me talk about this.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I came up finally with an answer, and it's two words hunger and compassion.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hunger for God, compassion for people.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you live hungry for God and compassion for people, you could say it this way, you're living at the crossroads of God's power and people's pain.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you live at the crossroads of God's power and people's pain, your life will never be boring.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: It'll never be boring.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you will see God at his absolute best.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because where do you where are you always going to find Jesus?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to find Jesus at the intersection between God's presence, power, passion, heart, and people's pain.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and I have to say, Joey, have I been uh overwhelmed and in over my head occasionally?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what an honor it's been, man.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: What an honor it's been to just watch God work and feel his love flow through me to other people.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, man.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and for potential new listeners, I think another really good piece of context is this time.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: How many years ago were you thinking, I don't know how long I'm gonna live?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: Oh gosh.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you go back, probably I had my surgery in 24, which is about a year and a half ago, December.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: But you could probably go back to three or so years before that when it started to sink in, how serious the disease that I had.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and then since the surgery, I uh double lung trunk, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, double lung transplant.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And since the surgery, I told you that I had a real breakthrough in the last couple months or two, where uh I I was doing something and I felt like God said, Um, what if you live 20 more years?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And as soon as I heard that thought, I realized I'd not been allowing myself to think that way.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: That the average age after a transplant is six years.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I was just afraid to dream out there.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, ever since that day, it's like a weight was lifted off of me.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how much more time I have, but we're gonna rock it the best we can.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna enjoy my wife, my kids, my friends, my grandkids.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and do our best to change, direct, enter, engage a conversation about how the church can do better at discipling people, and I mean that in its broadest definition.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, helping them renew and renovate their soul, heal their soul, restore their soul.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I believe sanctified psychology, as I call it, is part of that.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and that's why we're doing this.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's what mental health the mission of the church is about, is how to bring the classical Christian, biblical, spirit-led uh assignment of making disciples, uh, marry it to a proper understanding and use of psychological, scientific principles about the brain and all that kind of stuff.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Got some really good people that are on board with us that are gonna be part of our conversations.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be exciting, man.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, a couple of them are on the cutting edge of brain stimulation research.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: Psychiatrists, yeah.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: I can vouch for your gift, and without I don't want to swell your head too much.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: Come on, Michael.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: I find it a shot.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: I find myself a very lucky person to be someone who can call you when I uh having some unhealthy hired.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, seriously, when when this guy teaches at Seacoast Church, for instance, uh, and I used to be a campus pastor at Seacoast Church, I would always get people saying, Hey, can I get some counseling from that guy?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, you know, in a very nice way.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know how many people ask that after he teaches?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's I'll, you know, I will give you a great compliment that I I call you sometimes, and it's really because I'm like, I don't want to isolate.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: I need to talk to someone.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm coming to you because we also have that friendship piece.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I always hang up with like a nugget.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: You you always got something for me.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, that's a key that we have over the years, not just because of the counseling.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's a piece of it.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, you were a campus pastor.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: You you have a you have a you know a shared sense of what you want to give your life to.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we like some of the same stuff, music, and you know, we we laugh at some of the same stuff, and it's just evolved into a friendship.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: As long as you remember, you know, seeing your partner, you know, as long as you keep the, you know, I'm kidding.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm inferior.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry for you.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get into Shades of Grace.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: I have now read it a couple of times because you were on the Seacoast podcast for two episodes talking about the same content.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: And just a couple of questions.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll tell people, I'll tell our listeners what happens a lot of times is I will ask a question and Chip will pretty much say, We're gonna throw that question away, but here's the direction that we will go.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that's totally fine.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, that's that's what we want to hear, what is coming out of your brain.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: But my my question is when did you really let this sort of grace stuff that we're gonna talk about?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: When when did it really settle into your spirit?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm gonna go so far as to say I've been a Christian for as long as I can remember being alive was talking to God when I was five years old.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it's really starting to take now.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm almost 49 years old, Chip.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not saying that I had no reference point for God's grace, but as far as it radically revitalizing who I am as a person.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what's what's a short version of what you mean?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is it doing to you for you?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's it's changed my perspective in ways in which there's no going back.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: So an example would be I can give you a myriad of four or five things that if they were to pop in my head right now, I'm in this space with God where I'm like, that's not what life is about.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: These are not things that are going to matter a hundred years from now.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: And and a phrase that keeps coming to me multiple times a day is I am hidden in Christ.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm hidden in Christ.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm hidden in Christ.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: So there's something about that where it's like, I'm untouchable when it comes to my connection with God and the grace that He's gradually pouring out.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: So uh something I shared with you uh last week was there was a very specific financial issue that was probab was was very likely to be problematic to my pocketbook, a really bad uh solar panel purchase and reselling the house.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it could be pretty significant.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: And just a month ago, I looked at that as this problem, as this regret and like working through this stress.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas now it's like, look at the lilies in the field.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: They don't, they're not worried about anything.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: Look at the sparrows, they're fed.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's like this, that's something of this world.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm really a part of God's kingdom and I get to be, I might as well act the part and let it change my heart.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: So that's just kind of touching the surface.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: But I I I have tons of learning to to still transpire, but I it really is one, it feels like there's this line that you cross.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: And once you cross it and you've tasted and seen that the Lord is good and the truth sets you free, right?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: There's a part of me that's not I'm not going back anymore.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right, right.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a permanence, there's a transformation that's happened.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: And we're talking this is the past month.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:19
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: You asked me when some of this became real to me, and and I wanted you to share because it's so fresh.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk for a minute about that phrase, when did it become real?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Think about that for a minute.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, somebody shares some kind of truth.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't have one on the top of my brain right this second, but they share some kind of a truth.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and and you, you know, and you kind of look at it, think about it, and you think, yeah, yeah, that's probably true.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it and so mentally you sort of agree that, yeah, that's probably true.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then it doesn't really benefit you.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of something you agree with.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: But then as you go down the road, some issue makes that important.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like if that's true, that has bearing on my life.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so you go after it and you experience something because of it.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you're you're different.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, it's like you cross a line.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm getting at is, uh, and this is something that I'm gonna harp on probably almost every episode, that where we've missed it in the Western Church is several places.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, John 8, 31, 32, you shall know the truth.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Truth will set you free.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: You shall know the truth.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: John uh 17, 3, this is eternal life that you'd know God.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: First John 4, 16 through 18, we've come to know and believe.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know your Bible.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, all right, I'm I'm just showing off.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: But the but that word know, the the problem is we've adopted kind of a Greek um information driven.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, okay, I can, I can, like I just did, I can quote scripture and I can whatever, whatever.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what we're talking about.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: When grace becomes real is when you're looking at a failure, you're looking at a sin that just happened, and you're also looking at a need that you need God to step in and do something about.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and you can't reconcile the two.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't deserve for God to do this for me, but I need him to.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: But you're over here like, I don't deserve it because I did this or didn't do this or whatever.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And grace is I like to say it this way, grace is mercy in action.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then you gotta say, okay, what's mercy?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm my favorite definition of mercy is mercy is when you don't get what you really deserve.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you do get what you don't deserve.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Second Corinthians 5, uh 17, I think.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, maybe maybe 21.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, not 21.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I can't remember, it's not 17.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um he who knew no sin became sin.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: All right, who we talking about?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: He who knew no sin, Jesus.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: He became sin when we're at the cross.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Who's sinned?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because he had none.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yours and mine.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So he took on, he became our sin.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: He who knew no sin became our sin.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's the rest of it?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I love your reference to hidden in Christ.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Point being, when when you when that becomes an experienced reality, it's not just, oh, I know I'm forgiven, I know I'm forgiven, I know I'm forgiven, I know I'm forgiven.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: But when when it really just dawns in your soul, your heart, your spirit, the deepest all the way to your toes, God's not counting my sin at all.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: He's not even keeping a record of it.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, scripture says that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: He's not even keeping a record of it.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, oh my gosh.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it's one thing to know it, like where you could write it out in an essay.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's another when you, whatever the circumstances are, like I think, Joey, in your situation, you've been seeking it, seeking it, seeking it.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in your desperation, in your your curiosity, and your humility, whatever finally, whatever conspired and and and and came together, and it just whoosh, it happened.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like I fell into it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and it was out of necessity because there's a lot of troublesome things going on in my life.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I had to learn to let go.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like in the deepest sense, letting go.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so back to the question.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: For me, um, I got saved at 22, 3, 23, I think.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was a rascal doing drugs, uh, chasing women unfaithful to the wife that I'm currently married to.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is prior to being married.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was just a sinner.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, not in in nature, I was, but I mean in Acts.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Ephesians 1 through 2 was me.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I got saved from some really caustic, yucky stuff.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, even as I'm getting ready to talk, my brain's going places I wouldn't have thought it would go.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wanted, I went to the citadel because I wanted to be either commandant of the Marine Corps or die winning the Congressional Medal of Honor.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized now that all it really was is I wanted to live a life that made a difference.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to live a life that served something or someone that was worthy of it.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'd lost the one that I had.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: When I got saved out of that desperation, I I just immediately realized this is it.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is the one, the purest, holiest, gentlest, kindest, wisest, full of integrity, love, uh, mission, purpose.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I just got hooked, man.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: But for some reason, Joey, it wasn't hard for me to embrace God's forgiveness.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now, God's forgiveness is one thing.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Abiding in his grace is a little different.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: That was kind of in layers, I think.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it'll probably be for you some.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because there's grace for just being accepted and welcomed in his presence.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's grace for ministry, there's grace for you know, uh, finances.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do I, you know, do I have the grace of God in my life to make more money and act on this idea or whatever?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I can remember reading, and I mean this practically for anybody listening.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I remember reading Romans 3, 4 and 5, 3, 4 and 5, 3, 4 and 5, 3, 4 and 5, over and over and over again.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it talks about uh being saved by grace through faith, by grace, not by law, by grace through faith, for no man can be made righteous by keeping the law.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and I equated that to uh performing in rule keeping.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Performing in rule keeping, you'll never be made right with God.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I just pounded it and pounded it, and I and I'd be in God's presence.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And gosh, I remember writing it out and everything.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually, you know, the people say it this way, it went from my head to my heart.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually, I just experienced that that hidden in him, I guess is a good way to put it, where I just felt God and I are okay.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: Give me an estimate how many years ago, how long have you been living in this space?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I've been walking with God for 50 years.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Why didn't you bully me into it, by the way?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: Why didn't you force me into it?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Into what?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Into that space a longer time ago, which I'm I'm making.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm making a joke.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: I you and I talked last week, and I said, I had to have said things to you through the years where you're hearing it, you understand, you're empathetic, but you're thinking there's some deeper territory that Joey hasn't accessed yet, or else he wouldn't even be saying that or worrying about that or asking these questions.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think some of some of the stuff that matters most in our lives is what you would call revelation.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And revelation is about the revealer, not the receiver.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh, revelation has to be revealed.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I I know God to whatever degree that I do.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: I trust him.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: I like him.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's ultimately fair.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he just knows when to pull the the shades back.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um I don't know all the factors there.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, you're right.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's times I'm talking to you or whoever, and and I see, I see where the gap is.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: I see where they're you're connecting the dots, right?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Theologically, this scripture.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know what that means, and you're doing all that, but I can tell it hasn't it hasn't clicked.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of it's kind of it's kind of like you're doing the scripture, not becoming the scripture.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you've got to have such a high tolerance for frustration with people because you you know the disconnect.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: You've heard it uh a a trillion times.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, dude.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh but I won't go there.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, because but at the same time, I believe the secret to you know, the whole the whole book that we're getting ready to release soon, uh Shades of Grace, you know, how to see people the way Jesus did, and starting with yourself.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's the key to grace for other people.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: The key to grace for other people is is standing in front of the mirror, remembering how much grace you've needed.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there's still stuff in my life that I'm sure God's like up there, like, oh, chipper, when are you gonna get it?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's the key.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's times I'm talking to somebody, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, how many times will I get to it?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying you have a high tolerance to not be frustrated.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, I know, but but I'm telling you, you're talking uh, you know, because occasionally, you know, I'm not dumb.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Occasionally I realize, yeah, I don't keep track, but let's pretend that I do.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see, this is the 37th time we've had this conversation.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I know, um, I know all the things that and in fact, we're gonna address it in the book, uh, in the chapter about uh how we become the way we that you are, how we become the way that we are.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's reasons, certain truths I get it.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't yet, key key word, yet.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because of early life experiences, it's because of um all kinds of factors that make the penetration and progress of God's truth, God's word, God's principles, the the penetration and progress is is hindered by the debris in our soul, you might say.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course you can get to brain science kind of stuff, that if I have a uh a neurological super highway taking me towards self-criticism.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like as soon as you know, you you know, you you say, well, you know, hey dude, could you could you have worn a different shirt?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and if let's say I did have, which I don't, let's say I had a super highway of self-criticism, as soon as you said that, I'd be done for the day.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Jeez, I'd be done like that.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, yeah.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: But but what if now my point being, that person, Grace is gonna be a little harder to get a hold of because their brain is pre-programmed, not pre-programmed is the wrong way to say it, it's programmed through repetition and intensity to take criticism and it become, it's not about something I did or didn't do, it's about me.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm flawed, and I'm so flawed that you don't like me, and I don't deserve to be here, and it just goes down.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not that person's fault, and that's a key thing, and that's what helps me fight the frustration.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a person's fault that they don't get it yet.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna get there.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: If this episode was helpful, share it with someone who might need it.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow Chip on Instagram at Chipjud and find free resources for your spiritual and mental health journey at chipjudd.com.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time on Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.