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Hard Lessons from Burnout and What Comes After. · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: But as soon as you start calling a church staff a family, that's when it becomes inexcusable to have metrics and standards because it doesn't feel like family.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like would I discipline and fire, you know, one of my daughters for making C's in school when her sister makes A's?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: When you're a family, you're a family.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: Why the church, which the Lord calls a family, he's the bridegroom, he's the father.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there has to be a separation between how a church functions and how a team that exists to serve the church for its flourishing and thriving in health.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that surely applies to leaders of large churches.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: The pressure that's put on them, some of itself is just ungodly.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we've got to be mad enough to say I'm not playing the game, but it's the rules of these rules anymore.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Any organization that has lots of titles is not healthy because titles prop up external imagery and gives leaves lots of room for manipulation.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Behind the scenes politics, the less titles an organization has, the healthier it probably is.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I try to imagine myself as one of the disciples and Jesus coming to watch my feet.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is after watching him raise the dead, heal the sick, and then he comes to wash my feet.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't know, man.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: He's the son of man.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: He has a very not so subtle way of him humbling himself.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: And also secure enough in who he was to not need the recognition.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: And good stuff, man.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all give me good stuff.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, it's Brittany Gardner, and you're listening to another episode of Mental Health in the Mission of the Church.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_04: Today, Scott Stall joins you for an honest conversation about healthy teams, pastoral burnout, and what it really takes to build a thriving chart staff culture along the way Scott Sharon's auditory burnout, and how it led to major shifts in both his life and his calling.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_04: Scott is a pastor, author, and founder of Healthy Leaders, and he brings both wisdom and real life experience to this episode.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: If you enjoyed it, you can find more from him at Scott.com.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe what would be best is instead of getting to know each other off air, I think it'd just be best for our listeners to get to listen to you guys get to know each other on air, because I think y'all are both up to similar similar things.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it's good to see you, man.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: We appreciate you doing this.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you tuning in from?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh National Health uh Home Office.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sweet.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Jeff, let you take it from there.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome the listeners and tell Scott what you're about.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everybody, thanks for tuning in to mental health and the mission of the church.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're just trying to figure out how to keep a conversation, build a conversation around the partnership that could exist between the church and its mission, building the kingdom and uh the counseling community.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now I mean Christian or not, that would be helpful in connecting with the church in uh just building healthier, more whole world-changing followers of Jesus.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Name Scott Solves.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds like a similar kind of journey.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if he's ever been a counselor.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm uh I'm a master's level counselor, but uh he'll tell us about himself here in just a minute.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course Joey's with us.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta think of a different joke.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta think of a different joke.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: I had I had one, but I bit the joke really I decided to not pull off the next one up.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Scott, he always apologizes to the listeners that I'm that I'm on here.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So and and I know our listeners are getting they they know this, and so I won't go too much in depth, but reading your story.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm a pastor as well.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And just to to summarize it real quick, I struggled with depression and anxiety for most of my life and and ended up coming to, I guess you would say, a crash, even though my therapist doesn't like that terminology.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: But in 2019, I had a mental health crisis, was in the hospital for a week.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, like I tell Chip, I feel like since then it's just been, I've been getting better and better and better.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So a little bit of my story.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think we share some similar stuff, but why don't you get into your story and and what you're all about?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've been a pastor for uh over 30 years now, and uh most of that time has been uh serving as uh the senior pastor of of uh churches in uh uh St.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: Louis, Kansas City, uh, and our current city of Nashville, uh, where my longest stretch of of leading a church uh wrapped up about uh two years ago and uh served at Christ Presbyterian Church here, which is a uh flagship church in the Presbyterian Church in America.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I stepped away two years ago.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: That was at the advice of my counselor, also named Chip.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow Yeah, I got him going Chip Dodd.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: He's known in in uh a lot of uh you know counseling circles as the the author of a book called Voice of the Heart, uh, which is uh just a really great work uh and the foundation of his his practice and and also the foundation of my my personal recovery.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: I I was a I I guess you could say a very fruitful, effective, unhealthy pastor for for a lot of years.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think I've met you.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think I've met you before.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: That description is in various forms under various synonyms, but but um you know I yeah, and you know, I I I don't want to poo-poo all the all the good things God has done over the years through me and also in spite of me.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: There are a couple of thriving churches in the Midwest that we had the privilege of planting, and they're still going strong uh more than 20 years later.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we're grateful to have been part of those stories uh and you know, grateful to have been part of the story we were part of here at Christ Pres for about a dozen years, and that that actually became the the theater for lack of a better word of my more public ministry.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, it went when I was there, it it it it grew from it had been, I guess, a struggling church uh for about five years, and they were looking for somebody to come in and um initiate a renewal uh uh and and lead a renewal.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: And what you know, we were coming from Redeemer Presbyterian in New York City, where I'd been for five years as a lead and preaching pastor.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's Tim Keller's church, right?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that's where yeah, Tim and Kathy founded Redeemer.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um so we came here and and you know, as well the Lord do some really remarkable things.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there was probably about 450 folks that that were were actively engaged in the life of the church, and within less than a year it grew to uh over 2,000 on a Sunday and and around 3,500 in the active membership roles, and and uh, you know, it was you know from the outside one of those classic, you know, success stories, and it led to uh a book writing career.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm still an author.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: I've got you know my seventh book releasing this coming June, and and you know, have have the season at Christ Bros to Thank for that uh opportunity, you know, at uh travel and do itinerate speaking, but my main work now is uh that I transitioned into two years ago is to work with what you could call high achieving uh high achieving uh leaders and public influencers uh uh here in the Nashville area.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I guess the person who planted the idea in my mind uh is a guy named Donald Miller, who some of your your listeners may be aware of.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: He he's I guess you know widely known for a book he wrote uh that that captured the heart of Generation X some years ago called Blue Like Jabs.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: And he has since uh become really a world-class um uh marketing expert, and he works with with leaders and their messaging, etc.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: But Don and I have have been friends for, I don't know, about 10 years or so, and and uh a couple years ago he said, you know, what would you think about taking your years of experience as a pastor and turning it into a coaching business?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, Don, I've never had a business in my life.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: And uh he said, well, your first client.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, I've never had a client in my life, so I don't know how to do this.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but what emerged from that uh, you know, was was you know, the first year, I guess our comp in our conversation, we we talked about, you know, maybe pulling together about half a dozen top-level leaders from from Nashville and me kind of shepherding and mentoring and teaching and leading them for a year and see how it goes.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and and that that number six ended up being 36.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: And uh all of a sudden I I ended up with a new kind of ministry and a new kind of congregation um where I'm using all of my, you know, all of the the skills and experience and you know work, especially with leaders in New York and and in Nashville.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, both churches were pretty saturated with with the kinds of people that I'm I'm working with directly now.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it's also given me the gift of margin.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I I used to work at a pace of about 65 hours a week uh just for the church, and then probably another dozen hours or so a week uh writing and traveling and speaking at events and you know, all the rest.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it was pretty crazy.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, was running on pure adrenaline, had chronic insomnia, anxiety and depression, um, you know, were there as an undercurrent, but I didn't pay the attention to either that I should have, and and it ended up in in kind of a crash and burn situation uh that led me into a recovery, uh 28-day recovery uh uh experience in uh bowling green, Kentucky, at a place called the Bridge to Recovery.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that was I think where I got my life back and got my heart back.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, been working with leaders and and writing and enjoying my life, my wife and my kids and my sons-in-law uh more than ever.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: We miss a lot about leading in the local church, but but we're also content to you know sit in the back row quietly and support others in in that endeavor and you know still very much believe in the local church and are are you know uh you know regularly engaged with with a church here in Nashville that we we attend each week and um and appreciate.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: So anyway, that's that's the story in a nutshell.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't grow up as a believer, uh, came to know Christ in my college years, uh also through a a crisis, uh, you know, kind of an ecclesiastes experience where you know was was a good student, celebrated athlete, you know, had the girlfriend and you know, great career trajectory at the time, and and was just kind of empty and didn't see or understand the meaning of it all.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: And and some friends who, you know, one friend in particular that I still walk with, uh, literally walk with every Thursday, uh, named Jonathan, introduced me to Christ.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: And and that that just kind of changed the entire trajectory of my life.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so here we are, yeah, mid-fit mid-50s and still learning, still trying to figure it all out, but but also grateful for the life that we've been given.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for for all that.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And when you were it it was called the bridge, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: The bridge to recovery, yeah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what did that coincide with when you were led or were uh it was recommended that you walk away from actually leading a church in that form of ministry?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Was the deck same timing?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I I I I I I reached a point with my counselor where you know he he had been encouraging me to consider other things for about two years.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, at the at the point where uh at the point where I I was just you know kind of spent and ready to walk away, Chip said, you know, why don't you wait?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, go away for 28 days and know this great place, they do a great job helping people recover their hearts and their perspectives and all the rest.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then let's let's circle back and and have a conversation about it afterwards.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and we did that.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, I went I went with the the churches and the elders' support, which I I really appreciated.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you know, came back and and just realized that um, you know, on a number of levels the the ship had sailed.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, the the the congregation was eager for me to return.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and they made that very clear uh when I gave my resignation speech.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um But I I think that we and and probably they in the long run will be better off um you know with a different uh scenario for both of us.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so uh but we we still are are very connected to several people from that that community and uh some of our dearest friends in the world uh were from that community.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Here we are, and and we're grateful.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean it sounds like you were living at a pretty pretty amp up pace for quite a while.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: What made you start to realize something unsustainable is happening here?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like you called it your crash and burn.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Just for leaders that may be closer to it than they realize, what were kind of the symptom scenarios that you began to say, you know, something's not right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think two things.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: One was the insomnia, um you know, which which always points to underlying hadn't been an issue before?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh well, no, it hadn't until it was, and then it and then it was for for several years.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Much better now.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: When people say insomnia, do they mean no sleep at all or just very little?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, I think that's a rare person that gets no sleep at all.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: But I I would, you know, I'd go to bed at 10 30, which has been our typical bedtime over the years.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: But I would wake up 1, 1.30 and not be able to get to sleep again until until 10 30 the next night.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'd fall asleep great, but I couldn't stay asleep.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that that really messes with you after a while.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: But um, but the other the other piece besides the anxiety was I was finding myself getting angry uh uh more than I wanted to.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: And there are a couple of factors there.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: One is um, you know, we came we we came out of the pandemic.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: I had several concerns that I think were, I still think were legitimate concerns about how uh some, not all, but some of the staff members were showing up or not showing up and uh behaving and misbehaving.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I found myself in this situation where I was the top of the order chart of you know an 85-person staff that had just come through a pandemic and some had you know some were you know holding it all together and and and contributing beautifully and showing up well and and others weren't.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I I found myself instead of you know seeking out you know the the type of leadership consulting that I that I you know looking back should have sought out.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I sought out counseling, but but I I I think looking back I also could have benefited from an organizational leadership professional consultant about how to navigate this disparity between a team that was showing up well and not showing up well uh in an environment where you know we had just hired an executive director for the first time in the church's history, uh, created accountable job descriptions and and metrics and and so on, which which really, really rattled some of the team.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: And the fact that that rattled some of the team really rattled me.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and I found myself I found myself angrier than a senior pastor ought to be.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: And what that led to was was just I think me not not showing up as the best portion of myself.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um I found myself going back and forth between having a complaining spirit uh on the one hand, and then on the other hand, the next day having a codependent approach where where I would let things slide that you should never let slide in a professional work environment.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, there's a lot more to the story, and the only part of the story that that I really need to be talking about and owning is my part.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um But it was a it was a complicated season, you know, it revealed a lot of gaps in in my own leadership that I hadn't been aware of before.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the pandemic was you know pretty impossible, I think, for our situation.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um it just agitated a lot of things that were already beneath the surface.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: But at that time, I'm um, you know, God God is really good about taking those seasons and flipping them into something really good and meaningful.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, to my shock and surprise, I had all these leaders in my city wanting me to lead them, you know, and and part of it is, you know, help us learn from your experience, you know, help help help us know what the landmines might be for us, uh, so that we can maybe avoid them.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: And we also believe you've got a whole lot of good things to to say uh that that that we want to be part of.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, it's basically a bunch of bunch of guys who who really want to live their whole lives well.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want their work to sabotage the other important areas of their life, like marriage and kids and friends and community and faith.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, we're still we're still at the beginning of that journey.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So did the coaching of those citywide leaders, was that before the crash or after the crash?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's after I resigned.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: Don Don invited me over to his place um uh the day after I officially resigned uh and told the church I wasn't coming back.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um he invited me over.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: He said, I yeah, I I can remember the text, I still have it.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: I uh, you know, he essentially, which if you know who Don is and what his story is, there's just some really humorous irony in in this text.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: He said, I want you to know that I love you and I have a wonderful plan for your life.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: And uh he said, if you'd ever like to talk about it, I said, you know, uh, you know, those two words wonderful and plan, uh, th those are two things I'm very open to right now.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so so yeah, the rest was history.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's cool, man.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Congrats.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Scott, you know, I I don't know if you know what I do, but I pastored and got a master's in counseling and all that.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And little did I know that God would use it to mix the two to where I had become a counselor coach and consultant to churches around.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And very similar, it sounds like to what you're doing.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: But in from my perspective, I'd be curious what your perspective is.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not type A driven.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm very motivated, passionate, et cetera, et cetera.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: I call myself execution impaired, but you're more one of the guys that I work with than I am.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: So let me ask you a question.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Why, why do you think you ignored the signs?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, you did the sleep stuff, uh the insomnia.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: You said it was you you lived with that for years.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Why, why, why do leaders ignore obvious signs that something's off?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I didn't ignore it.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: I actually sought treatment and went to a sleep specialist at Vanderbilt Medical and did all the sleep studies and everything.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the problem is, you know, they say there's a 75% success rate uh for treatment, and I was in the 25%.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: And and so they, you know, eventually even Vanderbilt, which is um, you know, one of the top, if not the top, healthcare institutions in the world, um, you know, kind of threw their hands up and said, you know, we're so sorry, here's some hacks, you know, that that maybe you'll try.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: But but really the the missing ingredient was I needed to get out of the ministry that I was in.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I was afraid to do that.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I was afraid to pull the trigger on that, and I think it it required a crash and burn because both my wife and I had put all of ourselves into that ministry for a solid twelve years.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: And Um what it had become in terms of impact relative to where it was when we arrived was miraculous.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: And there was a certain degree of responsibility that we felt to not walk away so quickly or so easily.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a product of there being you know some blinders there, especially for me.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, my wife, my wife was asking me to to move on about the same time our counselor or my counselor started recommending it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: So she she was dialed in before I was.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: I I think there's a probably a combination of pride.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, like I can fix this, I can turn this around, been doing this for 30 years, you know, da da da.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Just hired a new executive director who's very skilled uh at and committed to sound proven leadership principles.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: He's been a top level level executive for over 20 years in major Fortune 500 companies, and he's one of the best elders I've ever worked with in the church.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: He's got a tender shepherd's heart, but what I underestimated was how big of a transition uh it would be to go from zero uh job descriptions and metrics to straight up best practices, which which felt like the worst practices for those who, in fairness to them, had not been held to those standards.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that's on me.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean that that's on me for you know not having the foresight coming in that that and and just assuming, you know, we're all Christians, we're gonna get along great, we're gonna work it out according to you know, things go south, we'll just pull out Matthew 18 and Galatians 5 and function as a family.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: And those are great ideals, those are wonderful ideals, but I I think what I did not realize uh until till the end, the church staff is not a family, the church staff is a team, and that team's purpose is to help the church be a family.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: But but as soon as you start calling a church staff a family, which we did for 10 of my 12 years there, that's when it becomes inexcusable to have metrics and standards because it doesn't feel like family.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, would I discipline and and fire you know one of my daughters for making you know C's in school when her sister makes A's?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, no, I would never do that.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, would I show my wife the door uh you know after after a hard season of no, absolutely not.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like when you're a family, you're a family.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, and that's why the church, which the Lord calls a family, and he's the husband, he's the bridegroom, he's the father, he's the he's the elder brother, he's all of it.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but we are meant as a church to function as a family.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I I think there has to be a separation between how a church functions and how a team that exists to serve the church for its flourishing and thriving in health.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the other piece is I don't think we emphasized enough that administration is also a gift of the Holy Spirit.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, meaning that leadership, organization, you know, crossing the T's and dotting the I's, holding each other to the standard that we're capable of.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh is a gift of the Holy Spirit that should be celebrated uh on equal par with the gift of mercy, with the gift of evangelism, um, with the gift of preaching and teaching.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh administration, uh I I think, especially in the current cultural moment that we're in, the climate that we're in, especially with larger churches, uh.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think that the gift of administration has fallen on hard times in people's eyes, especially where you know the expectation, you know, is is more you know, to live and let live, and maybe even to coddle a little bit in certain environments.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: And cot coddling is coddling is is toxic.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, coddling is is just as destructive to the the climate of an organization and a church as uh being heavy-handed.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: Both are destructive in their their own ways.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: The difference is that things come to a head more quickly with a heavy-handed situation, and and it's a slow burn, it's a slow cancer that grows and grows and grows we can't ignore it anymore when we have a coddling philosophy, which is like what if if anybody that's listening in here resonates with any of this, I can't recommend highly enough um The Coddling of the American Mind uh by Jonathan Jonathan Haidt.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it is a brilliant, it is a brilliant ministry uh model, uh, even though he didn't write it necessarily for people in ministry.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: He is a Christian.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: He is a Christian, and and um frankly, the ministry that I'm doing with leaders is largely based on his another book of his uh uh called From Um From Strength to Strength.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh is that Jonathan Haidt or is that uh No, that's uh that's a different guy.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: No, okay, yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: Jonathan Haidt wrote about the anxious generation and and the coddling of the American mind.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what's his name?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: I can't remember the Arthur.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's Harvard.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: His is it get this because his title, Arthur Brooks' title at Harvard is The Professor of Happiness.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Wouldn't you love to have a title?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Be an awesome title in that.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's the best job ever.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I I'm I'm curious because uh, you know, the the listenership of this podcast includes a a lot of pastors, and I know it's Pastor Chip's uh heart and and mine too, to see pastors operate in a healthy way.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Would you say that someone with a different wiring could have gotten healthy and kept the same job that you were doing?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So in other words, I I'm hearing you clearly that, hey, for you, for Scott Salls, you needed to get out of that rhythm in order to get healthy.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Would there be someone with a different wiring that could have gotten healthy in your shoes?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: My answer is I don't know.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't know where uh the leadership of the church is currently.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I don't know what they need.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I don't know what their aspirations are and and what God has put on their hearts for the next season.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: I've intentionally kept myself out of any of those conversations when people have tried to pull me in.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: But I I I can I can speak to my own leadership and tell you that I I would do things differently going back in time.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it would have changed the outcome.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, for me to be, you know, more organizationally, you know, committed from the beginning, I I don't know how that would have worked out.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, quite honestly.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: It it may have worked out in a very similar way with an earlier exit, or it may have completely altered the trajectory of how uh things work internally.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: I really don't know.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um what I do know is that there are a lot more sincere, humble, Christ-loving people there than not.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that that was true when I was there, and that remains true.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: And and that was also true before I was there.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, with with Christ as, you know, being the head of the church, anything's possible.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we certainly pray for that.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll ask both of y'all this, considering you guys do similar similar work.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: How does someone know the difference?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's let's talk specifically a pastor.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: How does a pastor recognize A, this is just an unhealthy situation, doesn't matter what I do, I really need to get out of this, or B, oh, I'm unhealthy.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like Chip and Christy Henderson, for instance, Chip, they they pastored through uh unhealth and then they got into a healthy place and they're still pastors of that church.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: How do you recognize the difference of when you need to do what Pastor Scott did as opposed to what Pastor Chip and Christy did?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Correct me on this, Scott, if I'm wrong, but uh being a Presbyterian church, your government would be very, very different from what Chip Henderson has.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um worse, the worst thing he would have to deal with is congregational voting, which to me is an abomination.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Scott would have to deal with elder rule or some version of that.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, he's not really in charge.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, I guess that's Scott.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's true.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's a missing piece.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Joey, to answer the question, what do you call it?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Not politics.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: There's another word for it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: The governmental structure is often definitely a factor.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now, again, I don't mean this in any, you know, like comparative.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it is comparative, but in most of the churches we flow in and that I go to, they're they're uh uh you know self-started, non-denominational internet, I'm not sure what you're gonna call them.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: And they and they have a they have a form of government legally on paper approved by the IRS that does not require uh congregational voting.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the con the congregation was was not a factor um in in any of my process.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: And and and in fact, uh it it is a big question uh as to whether or not I would still be at Christ Pres had there not been a Presbytery involved, uh particularly a committee of the Presbytery, which I'll I will just not say anything further than that.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: But the the structure is a really nice, uh the ideal of having outside oversight and accountability, it it really looks great on paper.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it it usually does not work out well in real life.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, what one of the kind of the fathers of our denomination, or the denomination I used to be part of when I when I was at Christ Press, I'm now part of Eco, Sinclair Ferguson, said, I I believe, and I think he had been in, you know, maybe two or three different Presbyterian denominations.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: But he said, I believe in Presbyterianism with all my heart, but I have yet to meet a presbytery that I believe in.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that that doesn't mean that presbyteries are filled with bad individuals who have bad motives.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: But when you introduce the human element and you you you entrust accountability for, particularly for leaders of churches in the presbytery, their accountability is chiefly people who have zero direct involvement with their congregations or their elder dynamics.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so they rely almost a hundred percent on testimony.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: In in my particular case, there was um, you know, the testimonies that were solicited were very selective.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, they were all in private behind closed doors.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know for certain who my accusers were, nor do I know what they said.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that that's typically the way it happens in what Presbyterian polity calls a case without process.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: They even have a name for it.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they have a name for it.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and again, i in an ideal world where everybody has the best of motives and is at the peak of their wisdom, it's a great process.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: But as soon as you introduce elements uh like opinion and uh conjecture and hearsay and rivalries and and all the rest that are in all of our hearts, including mine, um, it just gets it potentially gets really messy.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Joey, to put some circumstantial awareness to my answer, I don't get it.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's not true.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say I don't get invited into a lot of those churches with those types of governments, but it's not true.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Baptists, I get into a few Baptist churches.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um But they kind of lean a little bit more toward pastor-led, but they still have some governmental things they have to work through.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: Again, the spirit of your question was can you tell the difference?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I would say yes, you can definitely tell the difference.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I do believe this.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you live your life in an unhealthy environment, you become unhealthy.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: So even if a person wasn't unhealthy, if they stay there for any amount of time and learn to dance to that music, they're going to become unhealthy in one way or another.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it might be a new form of unhealthiness, or it might be one they brought with them.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that it's very hard to distinguish the two.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Again, just because we're here and it's an unusual place for us to get to, we don't get to this place very often.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And forgive me for anybody that this offends, but I believe part of why the church has failed in its mission in 2,000 years, a large part of it is governmental structure.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Not as as Scott said, not necessarily on paper.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: On paper and its alignment with scripture, some of it looks really good, but it's just not realistic.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um often the word that I would say is left out is relationship.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: All leadership and plurality of leadership should be driven by relationship, not rules and regulations.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: And titles.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Any organization that has a lot of titles isn't healthy, period.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll I'll go to the mat over that.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Any organization that has lots of titles is not healthy.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Why do I say that?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because titles prop up external imagery and and and gives leaves lots of room for manipulation and behind the scenes politicking.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: The less titles an organization has, the healthier it probably is.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Scott, what do you think about all that?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I I haven't given a whole lot of thought to the theory about titles.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I think your track record probably speaks for itself, uh, you know, in in terms of and and your your observations uh with the different groups and orgs that you've worked with, I think your your credentials speak for themselves along those lines.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh I I I have seen though where titles it if somebody neither has the skill set nor the level of commitment to rise up to a title, uh or uh on the other hand, if somebody has a title that doesn't rightly honor uh their skill set and contribution, it's typically not going to be a good recipe uh for for the long haul.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, it will lead to resentments and uh you know a bunch of other dysfunctional things, but I think rat sizing titles to somebody's competency and skill set and job description and uh and commitment level is is something that is really important to pay attention to.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: I also think that titles titles can be exploited uh uh uh for for for power plays and yeah, that's what I'm getting at.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: All everything you just said is is contained.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's a beautiful way to put it, by the way.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm suspicious of anybody that's uptight about a title.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, Jesus Jesus himself said I can deserve not to be served.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I was just spent some time last week meditating on the whole foot washing thing.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I I I try to do, you know, experiential immersion of the scripture, you know.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I tried to imagine myself as one of the disciples and Jesus, Jesus coming to wash my feet.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I I almost just can't come.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is after watching a raise the dead, heal the sick, act in ways that are our humanity on not steroids, but whatever.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then he comes to wash my feet.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't know, man.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And my I hope that makes sense how I'm tying it to the conversation.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it it's telling it's telling the title, the title that Jesus gave himself, the Son of Man.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just a very not so subtle way of him humbling himself.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, man.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: And not not needing to, you know, and also secure, secure enough in in who he was to not need the recognition.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all give me goosebumps, man.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all give me goosebumps.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: The only time that the Lord ever demanded recognition was for the good that he was the good of those that he was demanding it from.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: You are better off uh acknowledging him as Lord uh than you are acknowledging him as your buddy.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh it's gonna be better for you to surrender to him and everything rather than to give yourself editorial rights over you know what what you see as his suggestions when they are his commands, his commands are for our flourishing.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're not to hold us back, but to give us true freedom.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: I got an audacious question for both of y'all, or maybe your answers uh could have the possibility of being audacious.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that Scott, Pastor Scott's unhealthiness as the pastor of a large church is the norm for pastors of large churches?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's no way you can know.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Chip, I know your line of work, especially you you come and you know, you cross paths with tons of pastors.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do pastors of large churches, would you say at at this snapshot in time they're usually unhealthy?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I like to use this thought a lot.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: The majority of anything is just 51%.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: As soon as you cross 50%, you're now speaking about the majority.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: So keep that in mind.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: But my answer would be yes, the majority of pastors of large churches have health issues in every dimension appearance, all embody, marriage, relationships, friendship, uh, rest, rhythm cycles, all that.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, the majority.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Are there some out there that are managing it better?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: But they were probably healthier when they started.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: The key to me is in I assume Scott that somewhere along this journey you've done some of this.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: But the key to me is figuring out why.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not okay with well, I'm I'm just type A.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm that's not a sufficient answer to me.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why was I so susceptible to being driven?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: Why would I work excessive hours when Jesus himself said, My yoke's easy, my burden's light.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: I tell leaders all the time, if your yoke isn't easy and your burden isn't light, it didn't come from Jesus.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now your calling came from Jesus, but you're adding something to it.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can say this all of us need help with something.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that surely applies to leaders of large churches.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the pressure that's put on them, some of it's self-induced, and I would say most of it, honestly, self-induced.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: But some of it's culturally induced.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's just ungodly.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we've got to be man enough to say I'm I'm I'm not playing the game by the rules for these rules anymore.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: You you can't be a healthy human being and and live at this pace and et cetera.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not that's on us.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think about that question?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you can you can say, you know what, I'm not gonna give a direct answer, but here's how I'll answer it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: But would love to hear what you think.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I I I really appreciate the the perspective.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: Now, Jesus did say my yoke is easy and my burden is light, but he didn't say the yoke wasn't heavy.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, a yoke was for an ox, you know, that's an ox metaphor.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: The yoke is heavy.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: You're the beast, you're a beast of burden.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and he didn't say my burden isn't a burden, you know, and and and I I think what he's what he's doing uh there among a million other things, you know, when he's comparing us to an ox and using words like easy and light, but also using words like burden and putting it all together in the same equation and not dismissing any of those words, my sense is that that Jesus is He's both giving us permission to go for it uh with all of our heart.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, as Paul said, you know, we strive with all of his energy, um, you know, day and night, you know.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and but but not everybody had the Apostle Paul's capacity.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: And only one person had the Apostle Paul's calling.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: This is where I think it's important for type A leaders with like me.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I have a high capacity.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I am created, probably in reality, to to work hard about 55 hours a week.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: Once I go north of 55 hours, I I enter into the realm of unhealth.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: Once I go south of 55 hours, I enter into the realm of boredom and and anxiety.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but for whatever reason, that's where.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm at.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: Some people are 35-hour people.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: Some people are 20-hour people.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one of the things that the gospel calls on us to do is honor everybody's capacity.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: And honor everybody's healthy capacity.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: Insist that everybody find what their healthy capacity is, honor it, right-size the job description and expectations to it, and create shame-free cultures around that with a high bar for work ethic, which is a different thing entirely than a high bar for work output.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: So we have two daughters, they're growing up.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, every now and then.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, you know, one of them, one of them is was particularly skilled at X, and the other was particularly skilled at Y.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, the one who's skilled at X is saying, I need to be better at Y than I am.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_03: And this one is saying, I need to be better at X, because they're they're looking at their sister as the standard, you know, and then they come home after comparing themselves as students or comparing themselves as athletes or you know, what have you, or comparing themselves socially to other people at school.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: And we said, look, we are so proud of you.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then when SATs and ACTs entered the equation and college entrance exams and everything, I said, we we we both, my wife and I said to them, we never, ever, ever, ever will expect you to be the best.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: We only expect you to give your best at any given moment.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I said, I you know, I said to one of them, like, if you if your best is that you are a C student and you're a C student, we we will be more proud of you than than if you are an A plus student, but you do it half-heartedly and you still make straight A's.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: We will be more proud of you as a C student for giving your best and and apply that to every realm of life.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you take that into a team environment, every leader I think is going to be tempted.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this was something that I wrestled with uh and learned the hard way.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a high capacity person that expected high capacity from everyone.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, what I should have been expecting was I want you to bring your best.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and and that that requires a lot of work for it for a staff that was the size of our staff.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it's worthy work to do whatever work and put whatever you know mechanisms in place to discover what are this person's skills.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's the old, it's the old you know, spiritual gift stuff, right?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what what are their spot are their gifts?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: What what unique to they bring to the table?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: What are their limitations?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and that's the other thing.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like your capacity also dictates what your compensation is.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so don't resent that you know that the that this person over here, not that we publish compensation, but you know, don't resent that this person is given more responsibility because they have more capacity, right?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: And don't look down on this person who takes less responsibility because they don't have your capacity, you know, and and it's essentially an opportunity to shepherd our teams to serve each other in love, to understand one another according to one another's uniqueness, right?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like if if a kid in the home breaks their leg, you know, they're not off the hook for math class, but they are off the hook for track and field for a while.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: You you know what I mean?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and and I think that applies, you know, that applies across the board in team leadership.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: But it but it's more complicated because you've got to spend the time and the effort to get to know what people's capacities are.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: But I I agree with you a hundred percent.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: I remember Matt Chandler talking about how he would get to the end of a day and he would just sit in his car in the garage for about 10 minutes to to pray up the energy to go into the house after after a long full day of you know meetings and ministry to show up well for for his wife and kids because he had he felt like he had nothing left.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: Now, you know, for somebody who's doing mega things, I I think I think Matt is by and large a pretty healthy person as a human being who has been given a ton of responsibility and a lot of capacity, but still limited.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the guy had brain cancer, he had terminal brain cancer, you know, a decade ago or however long ago it was.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and so he's been through a lot.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_03: But but I think there is a way to be very driven and ambitious uh about our contribution in a way that honors the my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it's man, I think we I think part of what's required for pastors who are ambitious is to make sure they have a chip jud or a chip dud in the room with them at least once a week, uh, having honest conversations and opening up their schedules and opening up their task lists for your loving scrutiny.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you know them well enough to know what their limits are and what the boundaries of health and unhealth are, but you know, couldn't be a bigger fan and advocate for every single lead pastor, especially of a large church and organization, of having those mental health professionals in your life.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe that also includes being part of an ACA group, which is basically a codependency recovery group.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like so many of us get into ministry and operate in ministry in a very codependent way.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, another way of saying that is the people-pleasing, you know, pressure that we feel, that you know, to please this constituency and that constituency.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, there's certain recovery groups that are oriented toward essentially paying attention to your own side of the street, uh, not take ownership of other people's reactions and responses to your health, but to make sure that you're healthy and to realize that unhealthy people are going to reject health, and that's okay.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's not your problem.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: That problem exists outside of you, not inside of you.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, your job is not to get everybody to like you and to build complete and perfect consensus on everything.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's impossible.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: As soon as you've got three people in the room, that becomes impossible, let alone three, let alone three thousand.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: Best way you can take care of your church, best way you can lead your church is to is to lead yourself.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, to to to to be the healthiest version of you that you can and start really, really early.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Start as early as possible.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, don't don't wait until something something happens that forces the issue.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: Start really, really early.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, unfortunately, it doesn't work.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't work out that way because when you're young, you're dumb.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm I'm less dumb now, but like when you're young, you don't you don't recognize that you need help.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't seem like it, but maybe maybe guys like y'all can change that, you know.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't know.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, but I I will say I think guys like Judd can.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think counselors are are essential to this equation for sure.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: But uh one thing I would advocate, you said you're you know, you got a lot of pastors listening to your podcast.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: And you can quote me on this.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um what one of the one of the most important things that you can do for your pastor's health and longevity is to give them a$45,000 counseling and therapy budget every single year, if you can.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm talking especially to large churches.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: I know you can afford it.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: I know you can afford it.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: Have bad landscape, have mediocre landscaping and and and have a healthy pastor.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's a slam dunk which one's more important, if you have to choose.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: But$45,000, that's a pretty wealthy budget, man.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: I want them to have good counseling.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: I want them to be able to get away and go to places like refuge once a year to get poured into for a couple of weeks by high-end professionals or on-site.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, that there are there are some incredible places, but if you think about how much it costs in congregational loss, in tithe and offering loss to lose it to lose a pastor and then take another couple of years to find one.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: Believe me, you're coming out ahead economically to drop 45 grand a year on your mega church pastors' mental and emotional health.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you're coming out ahead financially.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'll I'll say that with confidence and full eye contact with any elder board anywhere.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um it doesn't have to be 45.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, make it make it 20, make it 25, but make sure, make sure he's in a counselor's office every week.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it make sure there's one on well, no, don't make sure there's one on staff because then somebody has to report to somebody and that complicates the relationship and and brings bias into the picture, potentially, but but um not always, but potentially.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: I was saying that if there's one practical thing, I would say, man.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_03: Don't ignore this.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: Don't don't ignore that.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um you know, and I say 45 because it because he also wants to keep his marriage healthy, which means introducing his wife into that scenario.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: Don't pr don't expect him to pay his own freight for for for things like his mental and emotional health.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: Let let that be your ministry to him, let that be your your tangible ministry to to that pastor.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I say him, I I know there are probably some female pastors too.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, be a one-gender, you know, guy uh that are listening into your podcast, but but but that's an important piece of it.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: I would say most of the churches that most of the churches we work with would would have a commitment to that.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: As an employee or uh ministry worker at Seacoast, I don't pastor any of the churches anymore.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: I did for 13 years, and pretty much uh I think 80% of all of my therapy is covered by them.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: So and which I'm just super appreciative because I don't think of it as something that I have to invest in.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it would be important enough for me to invest financially in it.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just love the fact that the church sees it as a priority that they're willing to take care of it.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: Tony, why aren't I being paid for the counseling I do with you?
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're my therapist, but you're the free one.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's something wrong with this picture, man.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Chip, did you hear uh Scott mention the refuge?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows that the retreat at Church Creek is where it's at now.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my gosh.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you gotta go check it out, Scott.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually very much so inspired by the refuge too.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh absolutely.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's in it's in Charleston.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, in fact, I'm I'm going out there tonight.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: I go out on Tuesday night and do an hour and a half.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: I usually talk about the father's love and journaling.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: Scott, uh, real quick, we're wrapping this up, but like you said, you're the author of many books, and I just want to read a couple of titles that I actually had planned on getting into with you two, but the conversation just took a form of its own and it was wonderful.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: But beautiful people don't just happen, how God redeems regret, hurt, and fear and the making of better humans.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then the Mercy King, how the kindness of Jesus Heals Your Sin, Shame, and Weakness.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to have over the course of the year to have you come back on this podcast a couple of times.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you're not interested, don't say it on air.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: Just say, oh, cool, and then then go stuff.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'd be very happy to.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: And the publishers would thank you for for getting ahead of you on them on that.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: But but uh I'm I'd be happy to.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I host uh the Seacoast podcast as well, the the church that Pastor Chip and I are a part of, and I'd love to have you come on there and talk about one of those books too.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like I'm one of the luckiest guys in the world to be able to sit back and listen to guys like you talk and I get to learn so much that we appreciate it.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: Learning those both ways, guys.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for looking at getting to small part of any ministry that's trying to think of it.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_04: And don't forget to subscribe to.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_04: You can also follow me up on Instagram at ChipJ and find free resources for your spiritual and mental health journey at chipjun.com.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time on mental health and the mission of the church.