Latest / The Habit Lab / Friendship Files #7- Staying at the Table When You’re Hurt

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Friendship Files #7- Staying at the Table When You’re Hurt · The Habit Lab

• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: We all have areas in our life we might feel stuck or overwhelmed.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So join me, Jenna Zint, habit coach, teacher, and follower of Jesus as we go after little bits of better by building offensively small habits that create big impact.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Habit Lab Podcast.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, welcome everybody.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is Jenna Zint.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is my podcast called Habit Lab.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I've kind of teased, it's where Holy Spirit and habits in your heart.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: That would be the equation.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: If anyone wanted to oversimplify this podcast, it is those things combined.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is my last episode in my friendship file series.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm laughing because it's been such a slow, long series.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things, though, specifically, if you're new to kind of my genre or approach to growth, is that we don't do striving where we're not in the business of, you know, beating ourselves up to hit some kind of impressive timeline of growth or what we output.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's when that's more of like self-help culture entrepreneurship.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So even like the little testimony in this taking me a while was that I have ebbed and flowed with my capacity with my family, and I have done it slower than normally how often I get out podcasts, but it's because in the past, when I'm not doing a series, I just do what I feel and it's a little easier to be quicker, but I know that I've thought this out, so I was like committed.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: But my testimony is that I haven't shamed myself or felt bad that it's taken slower.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, this is a free resource, and no one, I'm not disappointed in anyone on the time timeline over here.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been actually a cool little learning to give myself grace to grow and grace to execute versus I think probably in years past, I would have felt smidges of I'm behind or, you know, but I haven't really.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, this is my capacity.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So here we are.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Episode seven in the friendship files.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just a quick little life update.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you know me, I haven't really, I don't really travel and speak like I haven't, but this year in January, the Lord was like comical.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was like seeking God what like 2026 was gonna hold for me.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then within, I think it was like two or three days, I got two invitations to be women's speaker, speakers at or conferences at women's, whatever.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Speakers at women's conferences.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's that is what I was trying to say.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So fast forward, um, I did one in February, it was wonderful, and then the uh got invited to speak, be the one of the breakout speakers at our own conference, Bethel.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of you have come.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you ever come out to our annual women's conference, please, and you're a podcast listener, please see me.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: We always try to at least do like a little get together.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: We did um a polar plunge because it was actually like 80-something.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: We did a walk as a whole conference.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was really cool.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: They did it for the first time, and such great conversation happened.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like uh connecting at a different level, like seeing people.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was wonderful.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely want them to do it again.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was not my idea, but I'm behind it.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So then afterwards, the friends that were local or that came in for it, we did like a little polar plunge in our pool because we were so hot.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was fun.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I would love to have you.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: We do it usually every March-ish, um, and bring a friend, whatever.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if you come, please let me, you know, look me up.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get together, whether it's a walk or a lunch or something like that.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I got to speak at I was one of the breakout sessions, and the way it happened, I was actually in the sanctuary, and there's probably like 500 people in the room.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I the reason I'm telling you guys, my friends, is because that was like actually that was new, that was more than I've ever spoken.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've never spoken on the stage at our church before.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've spoken at other, we have like a couple other campuses, so I've spoken spoken at some of the smaller campuses, but I'm glad I almost didn't know because I probably would have been more in my head, which I don't know if other speakers who are like speakers who are actually like vets, if they ever feel that way.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: But speaking at in a classroom feels totally different, like mental energy than thinking, like I'm gonna be on stage where my pastors are.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So grateful that I didn't figure that out until the day of, and I was like, well, too late to worry or re-over-prepare.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing it.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: But it was it was really fun to be with all those people.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and then what else was I gonna say about it?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Any other life updates?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm going in um a couple weeks in April out to Austin, my friend Anna Mars church.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm going out gonna go get to be the speaker there.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels really it's fun and exciting.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's always funny when it's something like I had actually said no to invitations in 2025 because that that's where it aligned with what the word the Lord had given me.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: So for it to flip so quickly, I was like, okay, we're doing this.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then though, isn't it like, you know, when the Lord does something, you're like, okay, this is the new formula.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: We are speaking in 2026.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And at one point, just between me and the Lord, dialoguing with Holy Spirit, he's like, whoa, whoa, okay, sweet girl.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, obviously, I wanted you to do these three that I clumped together, but it is not an absolute yes now.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you what was the line?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like he was like, I only want you to go to the churches that I'm wanting you to go serve at.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it is not this is what we're doing now.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's more of the yeses will be like from my eyes versus the assignment on the season.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, okay.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of laugh at myself whole sometimes.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like one thing and I charge ahead and I'm like, we're going.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm like two blocks.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like you're the kid that was the runner.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like each of us, if you're a mom, probably had one kid that was a runner.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, this is a rabbit show, but this is so how I feel with God sometimes.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, they're like, okay, just as long as you can see me, don't run far enough ahead that you can't see me.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then inevitably, usually if that kid's not, you know, intentionally rebellious, they just get caught up and forget to turn around and then they can't find you.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then maybe you find them later and they're crying and they're like, you lost me.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, no, you ran away ahead, away from me, and then you took weird turns trying to find me.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: I am that kid with God, with the like holy, like maybe the words I feel like of my life, or someone else gives me a word, or whatever.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So this is my maturing into staying in step with God rather than I got the word now, the timing is now, or this is the new formula, or he's like, No, it was a yes now.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do not run ahead of me like you have done in like, okay, yes, I remembering that lesson as well.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyways, okay, we'll get into the heart of the episode.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is friendship files number seven, and the meat of this one is learning how to stay at tables when you're hurt.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I mean by that, that's really abstract.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of what I watch and in my own life learning and then watch like, is this a just a gen of thing or is this a trend?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is how often when I'd get there is inevitably pain in friendships, maybe different degrees, but how enough pain would justify like slow distance and then almost like leaving people's state, and it was so binary, like this breaking up of friendship, if it you'd been hurt enough, or I'd just been on a journey recently where like the Lord is like that's a almost like a lesser revelation.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what if you could mature past being staying in connection?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the connection will change when you have been hurt by someone.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of like ever coming to this like culmination of we're friends or we're not friends, like that was the last straw.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: I just think almost like there's so many more, like we think of it like spectrum, like connection being on a spectrum.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's it's so not black or white, you know, friends or not friends.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, maybe with different behaviors they do, maybe they break a little trust or you find out different things that is helpful or unhelpful or weaknesses, and maybe you have to edit your level of connection, but I almost feel like there's infinite edits before we actually would have to get into the cutout, not friendship.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this the sub-tagline for this episode would be in order to stay in relationships or stay at tables where after you've been hurt or with next to around people that have been hurt or you've hurt you, is we have to actually mature in our ability to metabolize disappointment, two things disappointment and being misunderstood.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm gonna say it again.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, in order to stay at tables with being with other people who have hurt you, you have to mature in your ability to metabolize disappointment and being misunderstood.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I would say that like maturity in friendship isn't about avoiding pain or disappointment, it's a learning how to get better at processing through it so you don't get stuck in it.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the hardest skills in friendship is actually this is learning how to stay in that spectrum at tables with people who have hurt you.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I do want to clarify, I don't mean like blatant sin against you.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, go check your Bible, what the blatant sin.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think that what I've noticed nowadays is people are quicker to call things sin than I'm like, I would actually be the metric of like what is sin and what isn't sin is way higher because most of the time when people assign things like oh like they were wrong, that was sinful, whatever, we we dip our toes into assuming the motives of their heart versus actual behavior.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to keep it like I am not gonna actually say something is sinful if there's by guessing at their heart motives.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: That this is a heart, this is a pretty like clear line for me.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, if someone, if I was there and they lied and I heard it, I'd still probably ask some follow-up questions because I'm just gonna be honest, me, your ADHD girl, there have been times that I've told stories different, and afterwards, Aaron's been like, Hey, why did you lie?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like shocked, and I was like, because that feels like a heart posture to intentionally deceive and then realize later, like, oh, he said last time you told it it was this, and then you quoted yourself this.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he's he's not wrong.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I have tried to be on a journey of being more purposeful with details because what it came down to when he said, like, did you lie?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: was the assumption that I was maybe trying to edit things for better jokes.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes in my rush delivery, uh I'm very generalization in general, and that would make me miss accidental details or even grab the wrong names.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like the other day I was saying something, a speech to honor a teacher, and I literally said the wrong children's names multiple times, and then what grades they were in.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, cool.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe because I'm trying to learn to get better at details, I initially thought like I should correct it because I'm learning to be better at details, so I don't accidentally lie.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then Holy Spirit was like, Yeah, that's fine.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: That was like just just pass the mic to the next parent.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: No one's fact-checking or gonna, you know, whatever.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what I but my point is is like the there's so much more heart posture motivation stuff that we don't know.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very not quick to say that that was sin or not sin.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: So again, though, if it is blatant sin and there's an affair or there's something else like really intense, like that would be like, okay, yep, those could be more of a binary situation.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I think I would like to one first suggest that you lower, like, or make more room for permissible we could work through this versus that top cut of what sin, not sinful, repeated patterns, which would justify cutting someone out.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the one thing.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, like blatant sin against you could be different.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: The next thing I would say though is when I think about staying at tables with people who have hurt you, what I don't mean is that you have to stay at the same spot.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you've listened to other of my podcasts, you know I talk about editing and adjusting adjusting boundaries when trust is broken or what your relational output.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: The last friendship file number six was about um making sure your relational output and your generosity is something you could afford if it's not reciprocated, that it wouldn't put you into resentment or bitterness.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's on you to manage your output.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think you'd absolutely probably need to edit.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't met someone that doesn't need to edit in different seasons.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the same is true.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe like you're at the same table, but maybe you because of some pattern that keeps happening and there's pain, you have to you change your seats, and you absolutely can change your seats.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's not what I'm saying, where you sit and your best friends forever, regardless of what they do.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: But this adjusting of like, what if that we think of it like I almost am picturing this table with like 40 seats in our my mind, and maybe at one point we're sitting next to each other, and then seasons or pain shift our connection level, and then maybe something bigger happens where there's like, you know, pretty big hurt or pain, and maybe I purposely get up and sit further away.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I think this idea of like, you could then over the years, if trust and stuff have shifted and you forgive and it doesn't hurt as much, you could scoot closer.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think it's this binary where friends are not friends.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's so many edits that you can do in between to stay at quote unquote tables without actually being best friends or having your friendship look the same.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you're hearing me that there's room for edits.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Listen to some of the pop past podcast about shifting your boundaries appropriately, but I think it's this binary we're not friends anymore because there was enough pain that I would like to start kind of poking a hole in with this episode.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, one of the hardest things is learning how to stand a table when people with people who've hurt you.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if we peel back, like peel it back, I actually think we're not saying they hurt you as in blatant sin, but thinking that something much more common is usually at the root of this hurt, or we're gonna call it pain, whatever you want to call it, it's semantics at this point.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the most common is not sin, it's actually disappointment.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a disappointment, I kind of wrote like an oversimplified definition in this episode, is the gap, the emotional gap between what you expected and what actually happened.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: So even that could go both ways.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: What if you expected something versus what actually happened, or if they expected something versus what actually happened?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's when someone didn't meet those expectations.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And now either you feel hurt, unseen, frustrated, used, um, misunderstood, or if the role's reverse, maybe they feel hurt, maybe they feel unseen, maybe they feel um used, maybe they feel frustrated.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's it goes both way, but actually starting to like that was a really big thing for me, is getting back to noticing under these pains, whether we call it anger, one of the core emotions, anger, sad, hurt, lonely, the next level, almost like the third level under that.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if whatever happened is the first, the logistics is the first layer.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second layer would be what emotion I was experiencing.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: But then the third deeper layer to me was like, wow, time and time and time and time again, disappointment in the varying expectations, what I expected was versus what happened, is at the root of all these things.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, whoa.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked it up because I was like, is this other than Holy Spirit kind of bringing my attention to this pattern in my own life?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any like psychology works or research that studies?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this um theory called expectate expectation violation theory, and it shows that we all carry unspoken expectations, which I want to say all, and then uh the unspoken part, I'm sure you can imagine this with your husband.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: He would not be surprised if we're telling them this, but even with friendship, and when they aren't met, we experience emotional pain.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, one of the really big moments with the Holy Spirit was realizing just clearly, he said, like most of your pain in relationship could be oversimplified to expect your expectation meeting reality.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna just be honest with you, I felt a bit resistant to that because it felt too simple.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like I almost felt like I lost some of my validation for hurt, maybe if I had articulated it, I was trying to think.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I when I sometimes with the Holy Spirit, when I notice he introduced an idea, I'm honest with my resistance rather than pretending like, yeah.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because then he it almost shows the resistance shows like a gap between in my beliefs, so it's like good information versus like rebellious heart.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So when I realized this, and I was like, why am I resistant to oversimplifying this?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like most of my relational pain, because I almost felt like it would uninvalidate my pain if it was just a disappointment.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a bit of an ego, and I would say an ego thing.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't make it that simple.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm more nuanced, I'm more deep than that, I'm more mature than that.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: But then, you know, because like if you're someone like, oh, you're just disappointed, that would be like yeah, I would feel a bit, uh, my ego would be bruised by that suggestion.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next thing is that um I felt so then if it wasn't ego, the other part that I felt resistance to was that almost like I wouldn't get the care I need if it was oversimplified to expectations uh to sorry to disappointment.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: If the pain was oversimplified to disappointment, and it was just really tender with the Holy Spirit, and he was like, You can still get like the care you need, but it's still painful.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not the dismissing.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're not going backwards, Jenna, to like 20-year-old Jenna who was dismissing her pain.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can still process your pain and get the comfort you want and be honest that the root is disappointment.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I'm at, and that's why this episode focused so much on like what if we actually like most if we all came from the premise of a lot, a lot, most maybe most friendship pain is actually disappointment, and then I'm gonna put a caveat which I haven't introduced yet, and misunderstanding working together.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of times the disappointment is rooted in a misunderstanding, you know, like so they didn't quite understand how much this meant, or know why I was asking so that they didn't show up that way, or I assumed they could have and they didn't, so then that's why I'm disappointed based on the gap in my expectation, you know?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: But when you peel back, when you peel back, most relational tension is usually not as dramatic as we make it.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And again, me peeling back my resistance, and you can still get the comfort and care, even if it is just disappointment at the root to so many of these a thousand different episode variations of friendship pain.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh, still disappointment under there.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's it feels almost more justified or like, yeah, I would say like I feel more important to think that they're evil and a bad person and they sinned against me.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: But again, if we're never gonna assign heart motives or assume their motivation, I I don't call people evil or bad in my head.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know it sounds silly, but I'm like, if I do that, I empower this mindset that's not helpful.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: So more often, underneath that relational tension and pain is you expected something different, and they're not seeing it the way you are.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say it again.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is true for marriage stuff too, guys.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: But you expected some so under most relational tension is I expected something different, and then maybe when you explained it or whatever, they're not seeing it the way you did.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of times disappointment in this way kind of disappointment and misunderstanding tend to travel together.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um where we can get in trouble, if it is okay, so maybe you followed, you're like, okay, I will concede the point that it sounds yes, as I'm thinking through a few examples in my head, which I'll give you some in the the next point.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, maybe I could see this that a lot of my relational friendship pain is unmet expectations and disappointment and then misunderstanding from that.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's interesting because a lot of times instead of going that route, we can get in trouble when we moralize our expectation.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I remember how I camped on if they sinned against you, that would be the caveat.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think most people actually moralize their expectation to make sinned against me a way broader like target than most people, than what is true.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I actually feel like I meant to say that again.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think we get in trouble when we moralize our expectations.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I was justified for being disappointed because righteous people do X and then add your expectation under it or behind it.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So then we make what is sin and what isn't sin a lot larger, then that's why we can justify cutting off friendship because, like, oh yeah, they're repeatedly sinning.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, actually, I think they're repeatedly not meeting your expectation, and you're saying, but it's not just my expectation, this is moralized where this is good or bad, or and you're like, oh, so that would be my next challenge is that in order to actually sit at tables with people who have hurt you, recognizing disappointments mainly under it, and then stop moralizing our expectation to to make it sin or not sin.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: We move from I wish this was different to they are wrong.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: We move from I had hoped for to they abandoned me, or you know, like again, it's just these upgrades from difference of expectations to moralizing our way, our perceptions, our expectations are right.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: There and they are there for the villain or bad.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for me, one of the easiest ways to notice, like a tell, like a poker tell.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I want you to, I want you to practice like noticing this in yourself when you're when you're moralizing your expectation of what was right or wrong for them to show up and you're disappointed and there's relational pain, is check your energy level to see if you started moralizing your own vantage point.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what I mean would be actually wrote, I've been collecting because I know I'm not alone in this, so now I hear patterns and everybody and I'll write them down in my phone.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes people will say things like, well, you know, good people, blah, blah, blah, or um, righteous people, or adults all know, or um if you want to be a thoughtful human, any and there's a bit, but what I was getting back to with the energy level to check it, any of these energy levels usually like there's this emphaticness and a bit, like I'm trying to think of how I can vocalize how I feel.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little like urgent and maybe sharp and like there's energy behind it.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I'm plainly putting something on the table for examining.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm throwing like I have a book on my desk right now.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if I weren't moralizing my expectations and I just wanted to get curious about my pain and trying to understand what disappointment was under, I maybe would sit the book on the table, I'd look at it for a second, maybe I'd open it, trying to get some understanding.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: But when I'm when my energy's off and I know I'm not just honestly trying to assess my disappointment, maybe I'd throw the book on the, could you hear that?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you could.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I throw the book on the desk and I could be like, well, you know, you didn't meet my expectation.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And in that moment, I'm like, ooh, even if I said the right words, my energy indicates that I am moralizing like it was reasonable, it was a reasonable expectation.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Anything like that, ooh, that one's that was one of them.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's reasonable.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, people will ask us as coaches or to get input, was this reasonable?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just to give you the flag, like red flag, that means you're actually trying to moralize your expectation.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: You are allowed to be in pain, and it doesn't have to be reasonable.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of you need this permission.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: You are allowed, what if we could get to this fat where we allow and are okay with our pain, we're not dismissing it, and we grow and mature past.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to moralize our dis our expectation to justify our disappointment to explain our pain.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: What if we could be in pain and not needing someone to blame?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And usually the clearest way if you're looking for someone to blame, which would be the villain or bad guy, is you're moralizing your expectation, is checking your energy level.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let me give you some real life examples of what this could look like.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, how easy it is to turn our preferences into principles when we moralize our expectation.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: One example number one, the text that never came through, which is funny because I there's one day in the Wonder Conference, I had a two-hour session, I get out of the session, I had a hundred and four unread text messages, and I just was flooded with anxiety.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I'm never catching up.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I should probably just let someone run over my phone because there's no hope.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's gonna be disappointed in me forever.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it's just so funny, all these expectations in the society we live in, which if you have a hard time, um, what is it, like with the digital leash, people's expectation of how often you should respond, or you have if you chronically see that you feel others are disappointed in you for your response time, or you're disappointed in others, check out um a former episode I did that was untangling or like getting off the digital leash or something.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: It just goes through some little habits that I have to not feel that way anymore.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: But, anyways, I'm going back to example number one for what it looks like in real life.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: The text that never came through.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: You text a friend something vulnerable and they don't respond for a day or maybe a week or maybe a month and you feel hurt, you feel maybe exposed, you probably feel vulnerable, maybe you feel some sadness because it doesn't, you know, like that they didn't respond, maybe you even feel rejected.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: This that's your emotions, but underneath it, if we're going to layer three, what is under there is like the disappointment.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And where is the disappointment?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's the gap between what you expected and what happened.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So your disappointment is I expected them to respond more quickly, and I expected them to care the way that I would or that I wanted.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's disappointment in different expectations about how long one's respond, like how long is appropriate to respond to text.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you're objecting, well, like, yeah, but it was a vulnerable text.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Other texts have different, you know, like a quick logic text, it's fine, but like a vulnerable share, of course.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would just show you that that's also one of your expectations.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there is no, that is not in the Bible.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: There is not a Mark chapter 72 reasonable biblical expectations about text response.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: You are adding to the letter of the law, you guys.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I do we do this all the time.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: The point is, though, what happens after the pain, the hurt is to make statements about the other person because we moralize our expectation.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like they don't care as much as I'd care, or they're not as good a friend.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Any of those thoughts are indications that you have spoiled from I'm disappointed to moralizing your expectation and now accidentally villainizing them.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, example number two, maybe it's a lopsided friendship.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: You feel like you're always the one reaching out, you're usually the one initiated, you're usually the one checking in.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you start to feel maybe I always say like lonely in this.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're starting to feel hurt by the lack of reciprocation, maybe you're starting to feel resentful, maybe you're starting to feel like angry.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those would all be layer two.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So layer one was you reach out more.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first part of the problem.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Layer two is the emotion, but then layer three, when you go dig deeper, you realize that there is an disappointment in the expectation of what it looks like to show up in friendship.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so easy to think after you go through all these emotions is things like they're selfish or they're not as good of friends.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: But all of those are all those thoughts are casting judgment.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Those are moralizing your expectation.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: If we open your hook, your own Jenna's handbook on what it looks like to be a good friend.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: I have added subtext.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Not just love your neighbor as yourself and how you love your neighbor is you make sure that you are 50-50 in the reciprocation of friends or money or ride shares.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, uh oh, that's not that's not biblical.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: That is a me add-on.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm now moralizing my expectation to almost like to not just, but what would it look like if you could just sit with your disappointment?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel disappointed in the level of investment in this friendship.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much plainer.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually this stunning, beautiful.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: It almost reminds me when I was sitting with the Lord at one point.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, It's like humility.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: My ego wanted to justify or moralize why I was right for being hurt.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: But in the humility, just sitting with the disappointment, it feels like it strips off all the other layers and it's just my heart, and it's a little bit, it's in a little bit of pain.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And in that simplification, I leave, I leave out the accusation, I leave out the judgment, I leave it's not about them.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's just about me needing care for the disappointment and the pain that came with it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like so tender with the Lord because I know I'm like, where did I get these expect?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I can actually do something and heal when I take off all the harder shells of moralizing and justifying what and just getting real humble and being like almost like imagine like holding my heart with like disappointment.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And God's like, I'm sorry, disappointment.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: That is happening.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I get that.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard being disappointed.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: So those are a couple, I think I thought I had a third example, but those are the two examples of what it looks like to turn disappointment into turn our unmet expectations that are really just if we took off all the hard layers or disappointment and learn to start noticing how we can moralize our expectation to make other people the villain or less than or wrong.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so just a real practical application here before we move on, um, is starting to just notice underneath your pain.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: So logistics layer one, um, emotions pain, layer two, then layer three, the disappointment.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want to st I'd like you to start practicing when you experience low-key pain.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: It could be level two pain or level 10 pain friendship, like in in the in between.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to start noticing, okay, where was the disappointment?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And what was my unvocalized expectation, or even my vocalized?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes we think that if we say it, then there should be no misses.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: But Lord knows if you're married and you tell your spouse this is my love language, that's my expectation, and it doesn't happen, we can vocalize them and they still don't get met necessarily.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um, the next time you experience pain, just get more curious about okay, I feel disappointed.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: What was the expectation that I had versus what they met?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then start to remove the moralization from them being bad or good, or mine was reasonable.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, nope, we're literally taking judgmental language out of it and just sitting with our own disappointment.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're gonna move on.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, why does it escalate?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, we often, I think we turn that pain, an initial disappointment, into offense when we assign meaning to the why it did or did not happen.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, part of why it can feel so intense when you have friendship pain is that it feels like it can be because disappointment feels personal.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, like specific towards you.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: They don't value me, or they don't respect me, or they're questioning my heart, or they don't understand me, or um or we we can point the finger backwards, like they have funky motives, or they just care what people think.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, ooh, ooh, ooh.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's one thing, like it can it goes both ways, is my point.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is like when we assign meaning and we make it more personal, um, we start attract like putting identity statements around behaviors, and that's one of the reasons it gets big and kind of it feeds, it can feed the monster the pain happened, and then the meaning we give it is where it can escalate into bigger, gnarlier internal world situations like offense and bitterness.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so sometimes we try to fix if they if we feel if like we're feeling the disappointment, like oh, they don't value me, or they don't get how important this is to me.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to, and then we try to fix it, or they don't respect me, so I'll explain.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, like the common ways we try to fix the disappointment is explaining more.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that could even be giving more information about you or the future scenario or what you're expecting or imagining or whatever.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: It could be defending ourselves, but I think like the heart of it is like just trying to get them to see it right.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like maybe you get that there's maybe you're not judging you're not being moralizing the disappointment in your expectations, but you're trying to almost like get your expectations to match.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like what they expect versus what you expect versus what they're doing, and be like, yes, okay, we both have the expectations or therefore we're both gonna execute.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's often where the fix it tries to come in, and whether your flavor is explain more or defensive, like defend ourselves, or just more information.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I know it sounds a little nuanced.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I will give Aaron more of my thoughts, would be explaining more, but other times I try to give him more details, which would be more like information.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So thinking that if I if I just slide a little bit more or put a little bit more on the table, we'll both have this, we'll both see it, and we won't, I won't have disappointment, he won't have disappointment because we're now like I could almost fix it to adjust that we both have the same expectations.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times though, more explanation does not resolve problem number two.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So problem number one, maybe it's the disappointment, but problem number two is that it's almost like a misunderstanding happens after the disappointment.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: So like disappointment happens, and then we realize it's happening, and they're like, oh, I could fix this.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then after your attempt to fix it, there's a there's a miss where either they don't see it that way, or you don't see it that way, or you don't think they're quite catching it, or there's missing information.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's all it's just so many different flavors of misunderstanding, but it's like, oh, more explanation is not actually fixing this.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of the things that I've noticed, I don't remember if I have missed my notes further on, but um is knowing, like I almost have done this thing with the Lord, like so.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's a miscommunication and it's just disappointment.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually think, oh, I think it could be a pretty quick old, sorry, pretty quick or easy fix to clear up this misunderstanding that has come alongside with and been the fruit of the disappointment, if you will.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe for instance, um I wasn't able to go to my friend's birthday party on a Thursday night, but then they saw me out on town on a Thursday night doing something else.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe the disappointment would be pretty clear.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I said no, but then they saw me out.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: So then I would then want to fix the disappointment that I'm assuming they're feeling.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like question marks, like, what do you mean you couldn't do this?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing something.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Am I because it'd be so easy for them to take again, making it personal and say, like, I don't matter as much as their other plans, or if they valued me more, whatever.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what then maybe we would do, which again is not necessarily wrong when we go to clearing up potential misunderstandings, and sometimes it works.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think where I watch it escalate and be unhelpful is when we're like a dog with a bone and we keep trying to explain or help everyone see it, us in them, help help clear up the misunderstanding, and we can't, we can actually make it worse.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: It almost feels like there's this tipping point of when more information is actually just salt in the wound.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: But there's some of us, I'm just gonna speak to my experience where I think like I'm just so close.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if I try one more analogy or one more example that I know they like, they would be able to be in my shoes, or vice versa.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, literally, it could be both ways.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they wouldn't be as hurt or I wouldn't be as hurt.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: It could be like, I think in the clearing up the misunderstanding, oftentimes, like I bet most of us have good hearts, but just recognizing I have this little line with the Holy Spirit where I'm like, my words probably like I'll try a couple times.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: To be frank, maybe there's a disappointment, a friend pain, and then we have one or two follow-up conversations, not quickly.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Usually I let time pass, or with Aaron, time pass because I want our triggered brains to go away.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think most of the time we make messes when we try to explain when both of us are triggered.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually have a high value on letting us like let some time pass so that we're not heightened emotions while trying to clear up a misunderstanding.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: But kind of my own schematic is I'll try two or three times with follow-up conversations, not again, not urgently, to clear up misunderstandings.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if they don't, I then imagine like I think it was one time with Aaron or a friend, I think it might have been friend, actually.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: It was a bigger scenario.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost felt like the Lord, I was like just sad and frustrated, not even mad at them, just like, how come we've tried multiple times?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: We've even brought a mediator in, and like we are not understanding each other.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's easier to be like, they're not understanding me, but I just have to then assume it's probably going both ways.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not one-sided, which I think free tip.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Assume it's both ways.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't feel understood, then start assuming there's probably bits of them you're not understanding too.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think sometimes the offense can build when we are feeling like the only ones wronged or the only ones misunderstood.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I just, as a rule, assume it's going both ways.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's probably something you're missing.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: If they're missing something, good news.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: You are the same quality of human they are.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you're probably missing things too.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: It just helps me stay empathetic and humble, if I if I'm being honest.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to say that out loud sometimes because it's easy to just assume and notice what I'm the parts that I'm being misunderstood.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: So then circling back with the misunderstanding after the third time, I remember this scenario and it was like, man, how is this not working?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like the Lord invited me.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, Would you let, would you give it over to me now?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like, would you give, what did he say?
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Will you let me do what your words cannot do and defend you?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: It almost reminds me of that scripture about the Holy Spirit being our advocate and defending us in places that we can't ever go.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it was almost this like, I don't remember what I pictured.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: If my you know how like sometimes words can look like keys, like I don't know if you've ever seen those poems or drawings where there's words to make a shape.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was like I was passing him one of those and was like, Yes, I will give you over my right to use my words to clear my name, is kind of what it or to be misunderstood.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I will let you, it's like I turn it over to be to to defend me and clear up this understanding in a way that my words have proven ineffective.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually been so profoundly freeing and healing.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what I I don't want you to do, or what I notice people get hung up on, is like all the scriptures about going to your brother and and you know trying to clear it up and then going to the next.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think, like, like if you heard me, I said I do it a couple times, but there is this impasse, even with Aaron or my kids, where we have tried and we're not triggered, and we're just not seeing this eye to eye.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's like a misunderstanding, and we I think I know it is, but every time I try, it's not cleared anything up.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's stuff I'm not getting to.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: I literally imagine giving it over to the Lord, and I do this like kind of simple prayer, not usually in front of them, because that might be triggering and condescending.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, okay, Lord, I trust you to defend me and act on my behalf and do what my words have not been able to do.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and it's not just clear Jenna's name, but actually, like I think of it like as an ecosystem of connection, like of love of us.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have there, are two kids, two of your favorite kids are in this scenario, not just Jenna's your favorite, and they're the low-key villain that you're like the step kid that you know, I'm your favorite.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes if we're gonna be honest, we feel that way.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I have to literally remind myself in choosing humility and the assuming we're both misunderstood, standing each other, is like, hey, I give you the right, like, can you not just clear my name, but could you actually heal and do something in clearing this up between your two kids?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna give it to you.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Ball's in your court, I don't have a timeline, I'm gonna be okay.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: You get to like you're you're the master at redemption and reconciliation.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we're we're upgrading to this is in your hand.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, what I'm not saying, if like a year later I feel or six months later, or two months later, or one week later, if I feel like I'm noticing something I need to apologize for or something more if I'm coming in low, but I will not add more information after that time.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like a I'm done trying to clear my name.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: I can forgive all day.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have permission to ask for more forgiveness, ask, repent, whatever.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: But the actual clearing my name of the misunderstanding is when I like kind of turn it over to the Lord.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, so I'd love you to try it the next time, whether it's a spouse, a kiddo, a friend, just actually and you're reaching this impasse and you've tried a couple times, um, whether in the same conversation or multiple ones, and you're just not seeing eye to eye, and there's a misunderstanding, imagining giving it over to the Lord and be like, okay, we're not getting this, but my words like do what my words cannot is my like my very simple prayer.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine giving them to God.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: This now we're gonna move on to part four, how to grow your capacity in being okay, being misunderstood, and being okay, being disappointed.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is like the literal key.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: That is the like explode your brain light bulb moment of maturing in friendship.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: And this is actually the key to staying at tables with people that have hurt you, is being able to process through your disappointment and process through your misunderstanding in a way that it does not tank you like it did when you were younger.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually think you should be able to grow.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've seen other people do it.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been in awe watching other people do it, and it's been like, okay, I guess this is you can actually get better at it.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like a max, you know, or I could take this, but that level, no, that's not like wow, you just walked through what I would have considered unredeemable betrayal or misunderstanding or disappointment, like epic disappointment, huge pain.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you're I'm watching you a year later slowly like walk on the other side and like wow, okay, I guess there's more for me.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's I can dig deeper.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: So maturity, I think, is increasing your ability to stay steady in disappointment and misunderstanding.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a skill that you can practice.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so a couple simple simple steps.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: One of the first things when you have relational pain, name it correctly.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of thinking they're wrong, they're bad, they're mean, they're worldly, they're, I don't know, whatever your moralization could be, instead say, I feel disappointed, or they're irresponsible, any of those labels.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: I just want y'all to like notice and flag in your brain labels and instead peel it back to I'm feeling disappointed, how this worked out.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: I would love for you, like I will mail you.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, if you DM me on Instagram and you started practicing this, I don't know, I'll find some level of reward.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want you to go after, like, if you do it for like a month, I'm feeling disappointed right now instead of feeling just I sad, I'm angry, I'm betrayed, they're wrong, they're mad, be like, oh, I think they're they're feeling disappointed because I want you to practice taking off the harder shell and just getting to root three of disappointment, unmet expectations.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, I want you to start noticing, separating the facts from the story, like what actually happened versus what I thought was gonna happen, what they thought was gonna happen.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like again, seeing where the expectations missed is helpful.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next would be in the taking the moralization, like they're wrong, they're bad, they're evil.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know, they meant to noticing when you're assuming motives, because that's usually when we upgrade our expectation, like I said.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then number three, the very small and the practicing being misunderstood when you notice the misses.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think I'm not alone in this, being like, oh, they're just not catching it, or they they really think it's this way, and that's not in my heart.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we keep trying to use our words to adjust their perspective.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: I actually practice letting it go.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I like I say to myself, this is funny, but really, I guess I feel a little funny how much I admit to talking to myself on this podcast, but I can't see your eyes, so I don't see the judgment.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna see assume everyone's with me and be like, me too, Jenna.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I talk to myself this much as well.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: But is um when you notice misunderstanding, so the first two were steps around disappointment.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: This third one's around misunderstanding.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: When you notice their misunderstanding, whether you're not catching it and you're just circling back to they must be evil or wrong.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I I take that off and be like, I'm not understanding them.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we've tried, I'm not gonna bring it back up.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think this is a more information, um, or vice versa.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's probably harder when you're the one misunderstood.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally think, okay, I don't think they're seeing me fully sometimes.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'll feel I'll say something like internally, I don't think they got they're catching my heart right, or but just kind of a little simpler.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're not fully understanding me.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then I say, It's okay if they don't get it.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know it sounds so simple, but I'll actually just keep repeating after drive away.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm imagining multiple friend scenarios driving away and be like, they don't, we didn't quite see it eye to eye.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they understood my heart.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: They, I think there were some assumptions of what was happening.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: I am okay being misunderstood.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: I actually, ooh, I feel it.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I will say it until I feel it like slowly decrease.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like a slow drain of a bathtub.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not instant.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like a magic wand.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I like I literally have to like practice giving it to God.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, you see me rightly.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: That actually has given me a lot of solace, is like they might not see me rightly, but I have to stand before Holy Spirit and Jesus.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we're aware what is in our heart and what is in our heart, like he is.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I kind of give them permission.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm missing something, please call it out.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: But otherwise, I'm aware of what's in my heart and you are, and I'm accountable to you, not their perceptions or assumptions.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I am okay if this human with a limited capacity and understanding isn't quite getting the fullness of me.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of times that I'm in that seat of misunderstanding people.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to give the grace that I would like to receive as well.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, real simple, when someone's not understanding you and there's an impasse and you keep practicing, letting it go, imagining putting down your words and then saying, I'm okay being misunderstood here.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: Not to them.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just realized that I didn't clarify.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely not to them.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: That probably would just instigate high emotions and not go well.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: But as you're driving away, practice being okay, being misunderstood.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Y'all, this is huge.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't actually know that you could sit at tables with people who have hurt you if you're not okay.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you need them to see you rightly before you take a seat, or you need them to own or apologize, they might not see you.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: I bet when we get to heaven, we're gonna have realized we don't see ever anyone fully rightly.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I don't even think it's possible that we could, because we don't have the mind of Christ and we don't know what's in their heart.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we're seeing dimly for better and for worse.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't we assume that with the misunderstandings that we have with friends?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like I said about the clearing up, if if I'm okay, like they're not seeing it rightly, I will, I will share or try again, maybe have another honest conversation or attempt to, but then I don't get stuck in endlessly explaining or looping or follow-up conversations.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: I let it go.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: You have to know when to release it, when it's not going to resolve at this point.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, my simple prayer, if there's something in me, show me.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: You stay open, but I stop over-explaining, I stop over-analyzing, and I stop trying to prove my heart or show my heart or or poke holes in their case against me.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, it's just let me advocate for me.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do Holy Spirit what my words cannot.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's just my super simple prayer.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of reminds me of that, like that verse in First Peter, cast your cares on him because he cares for you.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, I'm giving this back to you because you actually literally care about this and them as much as me.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because we we both your favorite, not one in stepchild's situations, equal, equal footing in your eyes.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then being okay when they don't fully understand you.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then I just want to say, so we're gonna move on to point number five, is that sometimes wisdom takes like looks like taking a place.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Remember how I talked about um being hurt and staying at the same table does not mean the same seat, which in this metaphor, it does not mean the same frequency, or maybe that you see them, or the same depth they get to your heart, or the same vulnerability, or the same amount.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: You let them speak.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely think there should be adjustments if some major pain and misunderstanding hasn't been resolved because it was like, oh, we actually it's like almost we need to edit appropriately what we just discovered where we're at versus where we thought we were at.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't have to be so dualistic where you're like, I'm getting up from your table.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then the interesting part as I've been going after this is how much people pleasing has decreased in me when I've been okay with disappointing people and I've been okay being misunderstood.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't how know how much that fawn was in me because I don't actually think you can break people pleasing without learning to tolerate disappointment.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: My my mouth just made a really funny noise.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: I hope it didn't pick up on that.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say it again though.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot break up with people pleasing without learning to tolerate disappointment yours in people's with you.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you struggle with people pleasing, like this is huge.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: People are will literally forever want more from you than you can give, more time, more energy, more access.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not wrong.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think how we we wish they didn't, so then we wouldn't feel bad.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, growth looks more like I'm not trying to hurt you, but I'm okay with you being disappointed.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: That was huge for me.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, pro tip right here: if you are struggling with pro with people pleasing, actually practice with no malicious in your heart, no malice in your heart, no energy of like sassiness, but like I I imagine it.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I am okay with you being disappointed.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then I actually go a step further and I I remember like, hey, God, like I need you to make up the lack for where my limit is with them and what they need because it reminds me, it like it's super helpful.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not being mean to them, I just can't be their whole source, and I'm also not meant to.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: But what it doesn't mean is I have to be like, good luck, figure it out, because you can't drown me anymore.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like any of that.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, hey, this is my limit, this is where their need is, there's a gap.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna trust you to fill in the gap like only you could do.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: And growth looks like being okay with them, be disappointed, not bitter, not defensive, not punitive, just okay with your limits, and then expecting God to like literally, like I said, meet fill that gap.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to say my next point is that processing disappointment is not necessarily the same as detachment.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, this idea of maybe you sat if it's a table with 50 seats, maybe you guys were real close, like two or three seats apart, and then something big happened, and maybe multiple conversations haven't found resolution, and that needs to then change the dynamic of your friendship.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: No problem.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you get and you're at the opposite side of the table for a season.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what it doesn't mean is that you like you can still process disappointment without withdrawing compassion, I guess, from your like I think like a tenderness.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: What I don't mean is like if they hurt you being dismissing your pain.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I actually think growth is being able to be compassionate for the pain in the relationship versus your pain, even if you don't fully can't articulate their pain, the assumption that you're both some level of hurting.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what I used to be is like this cold detachment when like fine, you hurt me, but sometimes you just need space so that you can you can hold that compassion while still processing your pain.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you can do that without turning into offense, but that is a ninja black level.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: But practice if you don't actually know that it's possible and set your goal for like what is it in karate?
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: White, yellow, red, black, I'm sure that's it.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: I should really look this up because I use this all the time.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't know you can level up, you're gonna get stuck at a white belt not knowing it's possible, or thinking you're just supposed to jump to a black belt.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: But there's like a bunch of skills in between that you well practice.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Practice.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, this what was my last point?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, kind of an example of how to hold disappointment with a bit of compassion.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um, learning one, that disappointment and compassion can coexist.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can be, you can say, I'm disappointed.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I would not say this to people.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's helpful.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: I literally will say it out loud to myself with them processing or in my journal or to the Lord, and then remind myself, I can be disappointed and I can still care about them.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can feel hurt and they still matter.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: I can be hurt and they're not bad.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: I can be sad and they're not bad.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Recognizing like they're humans, they have limitations, they're navigating things in their own story that you're probably not aware of.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's the kind and compassionate, even while you're in pain.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so practically, what would this look like?
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: Compassion says I can hold pain without making you my enemy.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we have to do this if we're gonna stay at the table with people who've hurt us.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be like, I don't feel seen, but I won't make you the villain.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm disappointed, but I don't need to prove that I'm worth this effort.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: I wish you understood, but I trust God with the outcome.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's both.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's both hand.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're taking away the moralization of our disappointment.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're being okay and being misunderstood, letting God do the gap between what we can do, what our words can do, and what only He can do.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: And assuming disappointment or hurt could be happening for both, not just one-sided.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: Friendship mature maturity maturing in friendship is learning to stay connected through disappointment.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: Healthy friendships are not built on perfect understandings or seeing eye to eye all the time, they're built on people who can metabolize, which would mean work through.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you when you talk about metabolize, it's like being able to digest.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like your body, it goes in your bot, your mouth as food with all the systems that happen internally, and then it gets used in energy and fiber, and I don't know how your body metabolizes food.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: But that's kind of the idea of like, okay, so like you can pain can happen, but then you metabolize it in a way that you're not, you don't die.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we just died from eating certain well, that's that's not a great example.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Darn it.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I hadn't tried an example on the fly.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: But healthy friendships are built on people who can metabolize, built with people who can metabolize disappointment, misunderstanding, and unmet expectations without villainizing each other or themselves, and let God fill the gaps like only He can do.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: There are people who can say, I wish you saw it my way, I wish you saw me my way, I wish you saw me differently, and I'm actually okay to stay here because the goal isn't being right, the goal is connection, and it's a lot less dualistic.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're friends or we're not friends.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many black or white, you know, there's such a gradient on this scale.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maturity, like, on some level, I'm I'm gonna be honest, when I meet people who have a string of broken friendships, like people who are in their life, and then now they really aren't, it is a bit of an indicator of their level of maturity.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: What I really like I have mad kudos.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's some behind-the-scenes talks that I have known of friends who have like worked through some hard stuff, and I can see both.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can see both sides, but I'm like, oof, and they've stayed friends.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: It is like, I don't know that there's a better way.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, wow, Lord, like let me learn that level of karate skills and friendships.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: And man, when you pray that prayer, I have had some great opportunities in the last couple years to learn how to do this.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: And again, there's not, it's not a get quick, like get better fast.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: And some of those friendships, they never end up back where they are.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: But that's okay too.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's this almost like um, let it ebb and flow without being we're friends or we're not friends.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, maybe pain happens pain repeatedly.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: So now you have to have some distance.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of think of it like a sprained ankle.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you don't, if an athlete sprains their ankle like a basketball player, and they don't actually take the six weeks off or however long to let it heal and they play with a sprained ankle, they will do worse damage.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it might be unhealable or uh they might be out of the game permanently.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: But if they take the six weeks off, or however long the doctor says, they could regain their strength that they could slowly build back up.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I think of like metabolizing friendships.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's not pretending it doesn't happen.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not trying to play through it, it's not then saying spraining your ankle and be like, I'll never play basketball again.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like uh take the appropriate amount of time, heal.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like once you've done it and you're like, okay, this this needs to be, I need to be sidelined for a bit and then stay soft with the Holy Spirit and slowly what work your back way back in.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my indications of like, I'll do group things with people, maybe if it's been real, but like I slowly ease back in.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I'm there, I practice thinking positive things about them because otherwise I'm just more aware of the pain than it is like the fullness of who they are.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I literally collect evidence of things I admire.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's one of my first things.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: First is like proximity of group.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: Second is things I admire about them.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then lastly, third, I actually try to gather affections and give them things because it's almost like my last layer of tender.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: And what it doesn't mean, like I said, is now they're my best friend if they've broke a lot of trust or you know, we're back to where we were.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that like my heart is pure and like fine again, even if we're maybe not at the fullness of where we were, it's not so dualistic as you hurt me enough that you're out and you're never back in.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I bless you.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: I bless the Holy Spirit in you and this journey to metabolize disappointment and misunderstanding so that our friendships with Christ look different than what we see in the world.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like any of these reality TV shows, that we would actually be able to be okay being misunderstood because we know you see us rightly.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we just notice those Holy Spirit moments when we let it down, let our words like hand over our words as tools and let you fight on our behalf like only you can do, or defend us, when we assume they're feeling misunderstood too, and it's mutual, and we don't moralize our expectations to be better or worse, or create judgments, or assume motives that we just learn to sit softly to peel back all those layers and sit with our disappointment.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I just imagine like taking it like a scrape knee to the Lord.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you were a really good dad, I wouldn't give you 10 pages of backstory of how I ended up here.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: I would just start with like, ouch, ouch.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you give me comfort and care, and you start to clean it so that it can heal.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I pray that we would grow as a Christian adults who can mature and metabolize disappointment and be okay being misunderstood because our identity is fixed in you, and we're solid and rooted.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: In Jesus' name.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.