Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Maternal Depression and Healing with Jo Dodd | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 9

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Maternal Depression and Healing with Jo Dodd | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 9 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: We are so glad you're here.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: The messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really effed up, all that stuff.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: We've got it here for you.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: We bring to you our own personal experiences, moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for being here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: Bring your friends.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: We've got you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Come mother with us.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everyone, it's Kate.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: I am so excited for you to listen to today's episode.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's just me today.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: You got the Kate show, not the Deb and Kate show.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Deb is dancing on the beach in Mexico, and we can all live vicariously.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: But I am here to offer up really an important conversation today.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: I am talking to Joe Dodd about her experience moving through depression and anxiety and motherhood.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: And she really takes us through the gamut of life with children.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: She's got four boys and what that's looked like for her from deep periods of depression through practices of healing.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: And she does this with grace and vulnerability and wisdom.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: If you are a mom who struggles with depression or anxiety or knows someone who does, I'm really hopeful that this episode today helps you feel less alone and leaves you with some things to think about and consider in your whole healing journey.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really glad you're here and enjoy the show.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: Deb and I love finding brands that have a message that speaks to us.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: We are recently introduced to a new local jewelry company called Leela Inspired.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: They make stunning natural stone jewelry that is just incredible to look at, necklaces and bracelets, but it also has this message.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: The company stands for all the same things that we do.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: They stand for creating, connecting, and exploring.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Those three ethos are the same things that Deb and I talk about on this podcast all the time.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to find jewelry that's beautiful but also feels great to wear, go check out their website, leelainspired.com, and go to our show notes for a discount code for all of our listeners.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, it's Kate.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know that feeling you get when you're at the top of a high dive and you're just dying to jump into the beautiful, cool water below.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know how good that will feel, but you're terrified and you're not quite sure what needs to happen to get you from here to there, and you definitely don't want to turn around and walk back down to the bottom because you know that will feel pretty crappy.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my 12-month Take the Leap opportunity is intended for mothers who know that they want to make a change in their life and are looking for support in meeting this goal.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: In this program, I'm teaming up with Ashley Wick, Transformational Leadership Coach, to provide you with combined expertise in psychology and transformational coaching in support of making a meaningful change in your life.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: Go on over to my website, KateKripke.com, to learn more and apply.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: We've got a discount going until March 10th.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: I really hope to see you there.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone, this is Deb.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: As you may know, I have a huge passion for self-discovery and growth, and I love nothing more than helping others evolve into their own unique ways.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: As mothers, we have a deep intuition that can sometimes feel muddled with time.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: In the Mother Daughter Journey workshops for moms, I focus on honoring and helping participants to come back to that intuition while also equipping you with some powerful tools to help strengthen that beautiful mother-daughter bond.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just launched my April and May group, so check them out on my website, motherdaughterjourney.co.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to work with you.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, Joe Dodd.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, Kate Kripty.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm great.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the podcast.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's just me today.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: Usually you get the Kate Kate and Deb show.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: But Deb is in Mexico dancing on the beach.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you've just got me, although I think you are one of my favorite people to talk to.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to claim you to all of myself today.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: Joe, you and I met in a mastermind we did, right?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: A women's entrepreneurial work-related mastermind, and found very quickly that we're so committed to some of the same things.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: And those being around this topic of maternal mental health, maternal mental well-being.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to dive into your story and talk a bit about the way things like depression and anxiety can show up in motherhood and what that looks like for a mom who's actually struggling in real time.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: I know you have had a journey and a story to tell.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: But before we go into your story, can you tell our listeners a little bit more about you, where you live, what your family structure is, what you do for work, all of those good things.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then we'll dive in a little deeper to you.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm happy to happy to dive in.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I um live in Atlanta.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm originally from England, um, and I still call it home, even though I've lived longer in the States than I ever did in England.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: England always is my first home.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: I say I have two homes now.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm in Atlanta um with my husband, and we have four sons.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a big gap.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: So our oldest is 26.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: We then have a 20-year-old and then a 13 and 11-year-old.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we really sort of have two separate families.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: The older two are not not living in the house with us anymore, and the younger two are.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's interesting, and there are some ways to go along with that.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And four boys.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Four boys.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I have a certified boy mom.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I know how to, I wouldn't know what to do with a girl.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of boy energy in that house.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: You need like a you need like a female dog or something.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we actually two years ago we we got a dog and I insisted that it would be female because I think there is way too much testosterone in this house.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's so great.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: What's what's your dog?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: What's your dog's name?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: Luna.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Luna.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's I've seen pictures of her.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: She's a beauty.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: She's a sweetheart.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's a sweetheart.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yeah, I we're we're based in Atlanta.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: My husband's family um is in Atlanta or in this in the south in in Georgia.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: So his family's close.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: My family is still all in England.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I've got some really great friends that I've made here over the years.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for work, it's very interesting.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I have two tracks at the moment.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in this, got my foot in both worlds or a feet in both worlds.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um I work full-time in the corporate environment.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: I did for a while step away from that.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was in a leadership role.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been with a company nearly for 25 years now.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when COVID happened, furlough happened, there's a there's a whole story there.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I stepped away, I was furloughed, and I didn't go back.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I stepped away from a pretty big leadership role.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I haven't gone back to that, but I have gone back to working in a corporate role for a while, actually due to some depression and anxiety that I know we're going to get into and talk about.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also have discovered that I love writing and I started my own company.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So two nearly three years ago now, I started Jotopia Productions and I write books, I coach, I speak when asked, um, or even when not asked, I talk a lot.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I've published three children's books, two of them written with my sons, my younger sons, and I've published a book for moms, which I'm sure we'll talk about.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um just started a podcast.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got this sort of I'm I'm doing the full-time thing, but I also have my love is is exploring Jotopia and what that is all about.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And really, Jotopia is always about it's a place where even on my darkest days I can find the sun.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what's behind the name and and the logo and everything with my company.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: And behind you.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: So those of those folks who are listening and not watching, and we we do both and this podcast, you are sitting in front of a beautiful bright yellow wall with this big sun behind you.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, what I love about your professional journey story is that you've been so committed.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know this wasn't always the case, but so committed as of late to tapping into your passion, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: And your passion project and making sure that you are doing things that bring you joy, that that make you feel light and you know, to as the metaphor of that sun, bright and light.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, I've heard you say before, and we've talked about your book, that you wrote two of those books with your son.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it and it is very moving, I think, that that part of your work as well is really bringing your family in and your mothering in and your journey around that into this passion project.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's really quite phenomenal.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's and it's I'm it feels good now because instead of forcing it to grow, I'm allowing it.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is a passion and I'm allowing it to be a passion.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be a generator right now.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know it will be.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I really do have a sense that it's going to continue to grow, but it's taken away that stress for me of it having to be something that has to succeed.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's really is truly a passion, and I can really enjoy it.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: Such a nice place to dive into some of the other parts of your story, just the way you say that.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's like anytime we're forcing something, it doesn't work, right?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: Forced to feel a certain way and it doesn't work, and this allowing and you allowing this to be what it is and to trust that it's going to evolve.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's such a my nervous system sort of does something with that idea that does that doesn't do when you think of like I have to make something look or feel or work a certain way.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: And um it's such a beautiful, it's such a beautiful shift in mindset, isn't it, when we can allow for?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's been a key word for me is allowing.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And for so long I was controlling every aspect of everything and really taking on far too much and not realizing it.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was this constant just state of tense, horrible, you know, just anxiety.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when I realized that what it was really actually doing to me, and I took a step back and allowed, I kept saying, I want ease, I want peace, I want calm.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I had no idea how to get that in my life.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I realized it's as simple as letting go and allowing things to be as they are, and they it I say as simple as it's not simple, but when you can start to do that, it makes I'm a testament to it.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: It makes such a difference in your life.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: It really does.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: Take us back, Joe, if you would.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and you know, we can use all kinds of words and labels to describe mental health and mental illness and anxiety and depression and all the host of things that we can feel in life and and that we can feel as mothers.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: But will you take us back and and and bring us through this mental health journey of yours?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and I'm curious to know when it started for you.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: Was it pregnancy postpartum?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: Was it before that?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: But if you could just give us, talk to us about that.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you can take us anywhere you want.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I may interrupt and ask questions, but I'd love for you to bring us back about yeah, the it really started actually in my teens.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my parents went through a really hard divorce.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so at 15, 16, that was a lot to deal with.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it so it started in in that in an aspect, it started there of me, I think, always trying to please both sides.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so this people pleasing piece started um there.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I came over to the States, I was in my early 20s and really was looking to be very frank, looking for love in all the wrong places, didn't love myself, had no idea of what self-love was, no idea.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, it it I'm proud of the story now.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: At the time it was one of those stories that was so difficult to tell.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I met now my husband, and we've been together nearly 28 years.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: But at the time met him, fell in love, um, got pregnant, got married in that order, and I was that girl that didn't come back home.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I was the one that everyone was talking about that, oh God, did you hear she got pregnant?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: She's married, it's never gonna last, you know.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that was my introduction to being a mom.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt all kinds of ways.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea what to do.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: We had no money.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I I was I had moved into I wasn't planning on living in a different country.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I was expecting in my early 20s to come to Atlanta to work for a year and then go back home and finish my degree.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I got pregnant, I got married, and boom, I was here.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have this was before cell phones, it was before, you know, email.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the only way really was landlines and and and letter writing to get information back home.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there was so much going on internally that I felt so ashamed in many ways.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I also felt so much love for this child that I had.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: This, you know, my my first son, I was besotted with and in love with, and at the same time had no clue what I was doing.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I, my husband, same thing.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like we didn't, we didn't know, we we had no money, we were struggling to make ends meet.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we both just kind of threw ourselves into work and to trying to do the best we could, and were very immature at the same time.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it was this, it was a rocky road with our marriage, it was a rocky road financially.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was missing home.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I had, you know, no, all of my best friends were at home.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just got very, very lonely and had this, it was so hard because there was this mom guilt all the time.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: How dare I feel bad when I have this gorgeous son?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I never go ahead.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's so interesting, isn't it?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: How we can feel so many different things at once, right?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: You describe that deep love for your son, even before he was born.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and yet the fear or the uncertainty or the loneliness.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think especially it's hard for us to do this both and thing with adult brains.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: And you're 20, 20, you're still an adolescent, you don't even have a fully formed adult brain yet.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm imagining that the wobble of wait, am I in love with this baby and really psyched to be a mother and loving everything?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Or am I unhappy and lonely?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: And does that mean I don't love this baby and I'm not happy to be a mother, right?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like Yeah.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was really difficult.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the thought of feeling stuck, to be very frank.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something I've spoken with, you know, my husband and I used to get into horrendous arguments because I, you know, when you're that you're married that young, the arguments are pretty big, or they were for me and for him.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I would always want to go home.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's my first thing was I'm going home and I'm taking taking my child with me.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was this, well, of course you can't do that because I I would never, even at 20, bring my son to a different country and raise him away from his father.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it was this isolation from and a new culture.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was, you know, it was completely different to what I'd grown up in.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it became very isolating.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I threw myself into my work.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so at the time I was working in in the hospitality industry, I was working in hotels, and so I just saw this opportunity to just, okay, I can I can be successful here.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it was almost like I had to prove something to myself and to the world because I had become that girl who wasn't successful because she didn't go back home and finish her degree.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I was, I pushed myself and climbed, started this hamster wheel climbing the corporate ladder, pushing myself to do better and better and better and better.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And no one knew what was going on internally.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I and I don't think I even really knew.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely didn't recognize it as depression.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say I'm lonely, I would say I wasn't happy with certain things in my life, but I don't, I never claimed it as depression.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: You're painting such an important picture, even in these early stages, which we it's like the perfect time to acknowledge it, is that people on the outside don't always know when mothers are struggling with depression or anxiety.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: And to your point, you didn't even know, except that you you would have been quick to say, I'm not happy, right?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: We have these ideas of what depression or anxiety looks like, and it can look so many different ways.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: For you, it sounds like it looked like this need, this internal pressure and need to be successful at something, and you threw yourself into it, which of course is not all bad because you were successful, but inside you were really struggling.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is that what you're saying?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was really struggling, and that's the key is when I was alone, I would sit and cry.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, sometimes not even knowing why.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would just cry.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it was it it was it just continued to build, and and I got really good at hiding it.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So nobody in my family knew what was going on.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my husband knew, and that's the thing.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: It also came out as rage, and that's something I didn't know depression was, absolutely.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it came out of real anger, rage, it would come out on my son, which is something I still struggle with to this day because I'd lose it and I'd snap at him and I'd I'd just you know lose it on him, and then of course feel horrible, mortified, sobbing, apologizing.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it was this I was stuck in this cycle of you know continuously wanting to get better, but hiding and pushing down all of those feelings that were that were going on inside.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I couldn't really go home as much as I wanted because of finances.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's a story I'll tell someday, but my my husband and I went through a really difficult time and we both had there were there were real problems in the marriage, yes, and on both sides.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately our oldest son saw a lot of that as well.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there was just this, there was there was a lot of shame that went with it too.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And there was so little love for me.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: There was I was I would I kept in every push, I would, you know, all of the pushing, all of the m forging ahead and moving forward.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was like I was loving myself less and less and less.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I just was almost addicted to this this drive of having to be successful.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's so it's so interesting.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: Just a quick question before you go on, or an acknowledgement and a question, I think, which is that you talk so much about this, you know, in your in your own work outside of this podcast, about how sort of the key to health and happiness has to do with loving ourselves and learning how to accept and allow for and stay steady with ourselves.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, we'll get to that to more of that in a moment.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it really sounds like the worse you felt, the more you attempted to get away from yourself through your work.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then the other thing that's so interesting, you're right, rage is an absolute symptom, often of postpartum depression and anxiety, often of just general depression and anxiety.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: And we say often, we say, when we're scared, we get scary.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: And rage is that exhibition of getting scary.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, underneath the rage is such deep fear, which you've acknowledged for us in the last few minutes of all the loneliness and the uncertainty and the feelings of trapped and the right, so much fear in there.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: And when we don't have the space to express that, when we don't have the support, it will bubble up and turn into anger or rage.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: Did you have and sounds like you didn't, but did you have any did you seek any support during that time or were you really trying to move through it for through your through it by yourself?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really tried to move through it by myself.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't seek, I had a couple of friends by that point that I confided in.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, I I didn't seek help.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I interestingly, I did for my son.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's a pattern.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: We all always will take care of our children and think, okay, well, I'll deal with me later.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I did for my son, but I didn't for me.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did eventually, um, but not at that time in those early days.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that that would have made the difference.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know that would have made the difference.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's to your point, it's like we see our children struggling, and our instinct is to get them help and support.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: What needs to happen to make sure they're okay?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I think we talk.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: About this interplay between maternal and child mental health with a lot of care and a lot of compassion, because the point is not to quote unquote blame a mother for a child's struggle.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's not the point.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: And the point is when we devote all of our time to trying to figure out what our kids need to be healthy and well, and we continue to get more and more depleted and lost and fearful and depressed and anxious in the meantime, we have our spotlight in the wrong direction.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: When we bring it back to ourselves, which you ended up doing, we end up showing up differently with our kids and they end up having more space to be well themselves.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: But it's hard to do that.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's not our instinct to do that.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: It isn't.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: It really isn't.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you're in that cycle and you're in it, it's so hard to make any changes because it's also it.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I did get the control became my my safe space, if that sounds, if that makes any sense.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: The control that I had over everything.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: So or the perceived control, I think probably what I said.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: The not, yeah, the the perceived control and the that made me feel valid.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: That made me feel a certain way.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it didn't necessarily feel good, but it felt better than not having control in air quotes.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I uh roll forward, I you know, I was this young mum, very lost, very depressed, but not realizing it.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um we then had our second child six years later.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and things got a little bit better then.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um there was there was some period of of of more happiness.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I remember more happiness than than not.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um we moved, we were, we were doing, I by that point, I was in the corporate environment, I was doing well with my job, I felt very successful with that.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: We bought our first house.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, things seemed to be a little better, but then again, our marriage took a hit.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was just there was always this roller coaster of uncertainty.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it, you know, it stemmed from being married so young and and thrown into this, both of us together so young.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so underneath bubbling, because I I hadn't reached out for help, bubbling underneath was all this resentment.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: We did go as a couple then, went to some some couples marriage counseling, which helped a bit.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was just constantly this this up and down.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was uncertain.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and then um we decided to have another.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: This was again six years later, so it's okay.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: We had six-year gaps.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and by this point, things were things were better with better, I say, again, on paper.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: They looked better, our finances were a lot better by then because I really was doing well.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'd climbed quite high.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was working in a really good job, but I wasn't happy.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's a stereotypical definition of success, isn't it?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm okay if I'm doing well financially, if I have the job, if I have the children, if I have the house I own, right?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: We can get so caught into that.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I totally did.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was all about okay, what's next?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I never would settle, I wouldn't let my settle myself settle.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's always what's next?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: What's the next job?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: What's the next pay increase?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: How can I continue to push myself more because I was so, you know, I had I came from nothing and I had to prove to the world and myself that I could continue to do this.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And yet inside I did not like the work I was doing.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I longed to relax, but couldn't.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and then inside too was all this resentment bubbling around me doing everything.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have to be super mom.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, totally.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: I have to be super mom.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh, how many of us have that feeling somewhere?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: Just just to pause here for a moment.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: So you're you're sort of you're you're you're pushing yourself at work financially, you're you're attempting to be supermomb.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: You've got three boys at this point, right?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: How did, how would you describe, you said early on with your first kiddo, your depression turned into rage, you would exhibit anger towards your child.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: We've all been there.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: It never feels good.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's that swing from acting in a way and then feeling deeply guilty or shameful about it.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: How else would you describe your undercurrent of depression and anxiety?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: How would that quote unquote interfere with your mothering the way that you wanted to be mothering your kids?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like how else did that show up for you at home?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: It um I think in terms of having the energy to do things with them and actually get outside and do things that that are fun and energetic.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just rather sit on the sofa.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes there's nothing wrong with that.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to know.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, but I had become a real couch potato in and let's let's just watch something because it's easy.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you're tired all the time.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Not only are you tired because you're working so hard at work and you're raising these two kids, but as you said earlier, you're working so hard to control the things that aren't in your control.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, all of that emotional and physical energy is going out towards these things, which never serves us because we can't quite get there.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: So we try harder and you're and you're depleted at that point, aren't you?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Completely and totally.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was always and still struggle with that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's something I'm still working on, but always tired, always felt like I was having to drag myself out of bed.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, would always willing would love to take another 30 minutes, an hour in bed before I got up.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: There was always, I was always tired, and that got progressively worse.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think just the not, it's interesting.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm such a creative person and I can see that now, but not doing creative things with my kids.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I just couldn't go there for some reason.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't, it's it again, it was I I loved having time with them and really enjoyed parts of being a mum, but I I didn't do, I was always, I think I was always judging myself of not doing enough with them and not making it the experience that they needed to have, which doesn't sound great, but yeah, it it it you know, there were certainly some, there were amazing times.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: There were some great times with them when they were little and when, you know, as they were growing up, and having that much of a gap between them as well was really it had its challenges and it had its benefits because also I had built-in babysitters, so let's be real.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: That was that was useful.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think it just became more and more.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: I outwardly was this super I'm really you know, I'm I'm doing it all, I'm I've got the job, I'm making the money, I'm doing all this.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the resentment with my husband was a lot.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a lot that we were that that was where the the resentment and the the rage kept coming out was towards him.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so we drifted apart because who would want that?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was not very nice to be around, and and he probably wasn't very nice to be around either.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that continued, this this rocky relationship continued.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and quite frankly, we got to the point where I actually didn't think we were going to make it, and I was ready to say, you know what, and he was ready to say, we're done.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when number four came along.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Look at that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Look at that, and honestly, he has been the glue that that binds our family together.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: It makes me emotional to talk about it now, but he really has.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I when I found out I was pregnant, I literally I said, I can't do this, I can't continue.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I cannot go through this again with another child.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I just felt like, what am I doing?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's just this cycle and repeat.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot do this.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And my husband stepped in and he said, Yes, you can, and I'm going to help.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and that was the the the light that we both needed to kind of bond us back together.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, Let's fix this, let's once and for all figure out what the hell we're doing.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And this he he kept saying, This is a sign, this is a sign we shouldn't ignore.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he he almost begged me, like, come on, we can do this, we can do this together.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And our youngest now is 11.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there still was, you know, a journey in terms of my healing.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's been, you know, we can talk more about how I discovered about depression and everything, but that was the turning point with our relationship was actually having another child and doing it right this time.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And he really has helped, and things have changed so much since Joseph came along.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's really interesting, you know.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it is not the case for everybody that having a child brings a couple back together.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think what I hear you describing is the wake-up call, the sort of intention behind there's another baby coming.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: And now we actually have to really decide what to do here.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: Are we going to heal as a couple and individuals and a family?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: Which of course you have been on a journey to doing.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: Your story is so moving because of that commitment to healing.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's not the case with everybody because, of course, if you're not willing to look at what's not working, it's not going to suddenly start working.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it just sounds like the two of you were like, okay, this is this is the quote unquote sign.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: We need to start looking at what's happening and address it differently.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Tell us a bit about that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, if you could explain to us what allowed you to really begin to go inward, get support, get treatment.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: What did that support and treatment look like?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: Were there bumps along the way?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: What worked didn't work?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: Those are a lot of questions, but yeah.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you go from there?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: It so when I was first pregnant with Joseph, I think that was where I had I had drawn a line in the sand and I said, I am not doing this without support.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that was big for me because that was me saying I need help in a certain way, even though I said it in a I was like, I will not do this.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: But that was me asking for help.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I was on a really stressful project at work.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was leading something that was really difficult.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and people at work would joke and say, Oh my goodness, that baby's gonna come out so stressed, jokes, you're so stressed.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And we would joke about it.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, that's exactly what happened.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And Joseph came six weeks early.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I got very sick.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I was in the hospital, my water broke, they kept us in there.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it was me, he and I there together.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he hadn't been born yet.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm literally every night praying, and I'm not a religious person, but I was praying every night, you know, please make this baby healthy.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll do anything, I'll I'll fix everything, but I need this baby because I felt in the beginning, I felt such guilt because there was that inkling of, do I want this child?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And he's uh he's changed me.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: He's really changed me.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: But there was that guilt of what have I done because I didn't connect to him in the beginning, and now is this why you know I've been so stressed, and is this why he came early?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I knew there was a huge amount of work I needed to do internally because I just I think it became so apparent.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, look what's happened.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're in this situation, you have this new baby, but now he's a preemie.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: I had to have a C-section, so I was struggling.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: There was just all this, you know, it was it was hard.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was really, really hard.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so at the time, I there was a lot of medical support that came in.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I had that, but I still didn't have a therapist.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: I still didn't have anyone to work with.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'd been to the couples counselor, but I didn't have anyone of my own.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um my mum came and spent a lot of time.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: So she came and helped, you know, throughout the years, she would come for periods of time so that we didn't have to put him in daycare because he was so tiny.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: I had stuck that I something had shifted in me to at least start to see that I wasn't there was something, there was a lot of sadness inside.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I still did not reach out for help.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't until basically what happened, you know, I got through that first year thanks to my mom helping, my husband helping, got through it and then threw myself back into work.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it really wasn't until 2020, until the world shut down, yes, that I then had to face what really was happening was was this the that had been going on for years.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I did get actually right before that.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So in at the end of 2019, I did get a therapist.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't tell you why.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: I and I don't know why at that time I decided that was the time because it was before COVID happened.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I got a therapist, but I wasn't really she'll she she'll tell the story, she tells it better than I do.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't ready to hear some of the things that I had to do.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you, you know, you see it all the time.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was pushing everything off onto everybody else.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was everybody else's problem, it wasn't my problem.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's so hard to take personal responsibility when we're struggling, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: To your point, it's so much easier to look at all the things outside of ourselves that are quote unquote causing us to feel so bad.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think most of us go there first.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's a really brave, bold step and vulnerable step to say, oh, what part am I playing in these things that aren't working for me?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I now that I think about it, I did have a coach.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: I got a coach in 2020.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I had the therapist going and I was seeing her and was making some progress, but not as much as I made later.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was a combination of having a therapist actually and a coach.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because the coach would, she knew what was in my heart and she knew what I wanted, and she knew what I was capable of in terms of this, the writing and all of the, you know, the creative things that that bring me joy.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I remember her saying to me one time, she asked a question about what was going on, you know, because I was really tense that day that we were talking.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I just said, Oh, you know, I was talking about all of the responsibilities I had.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I've got just got too many plates spinning.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, I can't drop a plate.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Joe, you know that that super mom cape that you're wearing, that outfit that you have, you don't have to have that on.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can take that cape off.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought she was bonkers.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, What do you mean?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I can't take it off.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, I who's gonna who's going to do all these things that I have to do?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, What if you all of these plates, you know, tell me about the plates that you're spinning?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm telling her about, you know, visually about all these plates that I was spinning and how one could not drop.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, What if you gave a plate, you know, to your husband to spin?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, We laugh about this now, but I said, Well, I suppose one could crash, you know, one could because of course he's going to fail.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he's not going to fail, he's just going to do things differently to how I was doing things.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a realization of like, good lord, where have I come that I think I am doing everything the right way and it's my way or the highway?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what would it look like if I could let go of some of those things and allow other people to help me?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was definitely in that martyr mum mentality and could not get out of it.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but really, it was in 2020 I got furloughed, and that was the best gift for me personally, because I was forced to stop.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: There was nothing to do.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I did not know how to relax.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I couldn't.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: For the first two weeks, I didn't know what to do.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I and that made me realize how uncomfortable I was with myself, because I couldn't just sit and relax.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: Those of us who don't know how to sit with discomfort, right?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: Either because we weren't taught that as children, we weren't taught that it was okay to feel uncomfortable, right?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: Or because we literally watched other people do destructive things with dis uncomfortable emotions, right?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the ways we get to not feel discomfort is to keep moving, to work and move and move.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then, and then there's a you're describing this external forced reason that you have to stop and slow down.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think the the pandemic did that for many of us, was just this required stillness, which in the beginning felt awful, right?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because we all had all of our feelings swarm at us.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: How did you manage that?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: How did you tolerate that?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: What did you do when all the when you slowed down and all the feelings became more visible and apparent to you?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: How did you move through that?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I actually I don't know how I found it, but I I think, well, I think when you start, when you do start allowing things to happen, then then things will attract, you'll attract different um aspects.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started, I did, I started a coaching certification because I thought, well, that's something I can do.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And in doing that, then met all these different people.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it was really interesting to meet other like-minded people who were really creative, and it just it sparked something in me to that's how I started writing the books, and that's where I got the idea for Jotopia, and all these things just started just making themselves present.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I I had never thought about meditation or anything like that.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: But this a friend of mine through this, you know, through the coaching that I was doing said, Hey, there's this spiritual awake spiritual awakening workshop next weekend.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to do you want to?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's virtual, do you want to go?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, What what's that?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is that?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so foreign.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and I thought, well, why not?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Got nothing better to do.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I did, and it was the most amazing.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: That was open, it opened the floodgates.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally spent the entire weekend sobbing.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, just sobbing.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the best thing ever.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so funny because I was down here in my office.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: The kids and my husband were upstairs, and I, you know, I'd take breaks and come up.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, Are you okay?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Yeah, I'm great.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And like it's like had come, but it it opened something within me to realize that there's an awful lot of healing that needs to happen.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and even that, so that was the start of exploring meditation and sound healing and breath work and all the things I'm still working through, like finding what happened what works for me and what doesn't, and um, and how various things like that help me.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but to be honest, there was still something it just would fix it, like that that weekend was amazing, but then I dip right back into just not feeling great and and feeling tired and angry and resentful.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: That was still the the default feeling that was there.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was still, I had been seeing my therapist, but then I I went through this period of not seeing her for a while.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had a situation with my um adult son, who's now 26, that I I really you know won't talk too much about the actual situation, but he had a he had a mental health breakdown and it broke me.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I I couldn't cope, I had no way.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: There was so much in that because going back to the very beginning of the story, I was like, my very first question was what did I do wrong?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Put him in this situation.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: What did I do to him?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: And when I said that, then there was this realization of like Joe, you didn't do anything, you did the best you could.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, but I couldn't let go of that, and so there was all this guilt that was just there, and I just couldn't cope.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And this was when I was trying to run my business and had stepped away from the corporate role and everything, and I just realized like I cannot keep doing this to myself.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: I really will put myself in the grave.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm I'm really was very worried about my physical health, my mental health.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I kind of went into a hibernation.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to talk to anybody.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: I felt such deep shame you're describing, right?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think that's that difference, Joe, between blame, right?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: You were blaming yourself.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: What did I do to cause this harm?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: As opposed to the deep self compassion.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Compassion you just shared of I did my best.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have I did my best with what I had.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that kind of compassion with also acknowledgement, right?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: You started this whole talk today by acknowledging that you were so angry and so rageful and so depressed and anxious that you would act towards him in ways that you knew you felt bad about after, right?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so we need that sort of recognition of big picture with compassion so that we don't turn that into this is my fault, because that kind of shame does destroy us physically and emotionally.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: How did you access the self-compassion?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: Was there anything in particular that helped you to tap into that when you were reflecting when during this crisis that your son had and you reflecting on his earliest days?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: What helped you tap into that, the mindset, the perspective, the version of that story that allowed you to allow your humanity in, your compassion connection with yourself?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: What was helpful?
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was really my therapist because that's when I called her.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I just had this sense of I cannot do this by myself.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can't figure this out.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: No matter what meditation I do, I need someone to bounce it off of and to really dive into this with.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: And she was the one.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was so interesting.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: She she we had a couple of sessions, and then she said, Joe, I'm gonna tell you something, and I really want you to hear what I'm saying.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um and she said, You're depressed.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: And she said it like that, and there was just this silence.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: I remember it vividly.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: She said, You're depressed.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I can help you, but you have to admit that you're depressed.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're I want you to see that you are depressed.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and she said that she said, I of course I knew this as a therapist.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: I knew this when I saw you two years ago, but if I'd have told you that, you'd have run for the hills.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: And she's right, I would have said she was crazy.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not depressed, I'm okay.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm just a struggle, I'm just a busy mum, you know.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, There are options, and I'd like you to consider the options.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's medication, there's all these things we can do, but I really want you to look into this with me and let me explain to you what depression is.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when we really started talking about anger, rage, all the things I had no idea what depression was.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: And all it just opened me up, and and she allowed me to see she's the one she kept saying, like, you have where is the compassion for you?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like you were you were a kid when all of this started.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you look at she kept making me look at what I'd done and how successful I'd been with this.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, she just uh it's just been this beautiful I be now I don't see her as often because I don't need to now, but it was having her trust and having putting my trust in her and having her be able to mirror back to me some of the things I was saying and make me realize like, do you realize what you just said?
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and how hard I was and still am sometimes on myself.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it sounds like she was mirroring back to you this way in which she could see in you your struggle.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: She could see your depression, which of course with depression comes lack of perspective.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, right, you you can't see what she can see because you had a lack of just perspective because of the depression.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: She can see in you your depression and respect you at the same time.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: She can see in you your struggle and see in you your success, right?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: She was able to reflect back to you this both and these like are all parts of you and wanting you.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: We talk about this in mental health work all the time.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: We don't just get to feel good, right?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: In order to feel good and have access to the pride and the empowerment and the joy and the fulfillment, we have to also be willing to feel the loss and the grief and the sadness and the anger, right?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so I almost hear that she's saying, I can help you feel these things on this side of the spectrum that are going to feel really good.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: But before we help you get there, we you have to be willing to acknowledge these other things on the other side.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been key is acknowledging them and going and leaning into them and really feeling them.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I, you know, I've had some things said uh around, you know, you just have to tell yourself, just wake up and have a better thought.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have to just tell yourself, you know, you're telling yourself this story that you're depressed.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I get where that type of mentality comes from, but you cannot say that to someone who is deep in depression.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and having that therapist who is there with me to say, I can get you to this side, but we're gonna feel into this and we're gonna explore this.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's safe.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a safe place to do that.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: And let's get through it together.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you know what I love, Joe.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I've heard you talk about this, and you and I talk about it in a little bit of different ways, but I know we share this perspective that you know there there is truth to you just said, to this idea of choose something different, right?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: Acknowledge that you get to choose your thinking, and thinking in over here in this direction is gonna help you feel better.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: We're thinking about all the things that aren't working are gonna make you feel awful.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: Now, again, when you're in active depression, there's no perspective.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: So you you're literally your brain literally can't see big picture, right?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: So asking someone who's deeply depressed to do that is unfair because there's not the brain capacity to do that, right?
• 49:57
  unknown: Right.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like that toxic posity.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: Just think about happy things.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like if if if I could just think about happy things, I would have thought about happy things 20 years ago.
• 50:07
  unknown: Exactly.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the truth is that once we make room for the pain and acknowledge and feel it, then we have a choice to make.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: We do.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: Talk to me about that.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: What was that process like for you?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like at what point did you realize that truth that you actually do have a choice?
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: What do you remember a moment or do you have an experience to share once you had done this work with your therapist where you made room for the pain?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: You can't skip over that.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: You'd made room for the pain.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have an example or an idea of when you were like, oh my gosh, I don't have to keep choosing the pain.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: I can choose something else.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: When my brain is is healthy enough to do that, right?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually the so a year on from when that happened initially with my son.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a long two years, and it happened again almost at the same time this past year around the holidays.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt myself slipping back into that.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh God, I can't cope.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, oh, oh, you know, this.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's interesting.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I have it on my phone.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why I did it, but I put my phone up in front of me and just sobbed.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I caught myself on camera sobbing because I think I wanted to remember that moment of how helpless I felt, how painful it was.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I also had this knowing that I just need to let this out.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: I need to breathe and I'm going to be okay.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't control what's happening to my son.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I can choose to feel better, but I'm going to process this first.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did that.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'd also been playing, you know, that Coldplay song Fix You.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: I had been playing that on repeat.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd been playing it on repeat, feeling sorry and feeling sad.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was like this, it was like a hug of you know, and so I'm singing it, I'm sobbing and before it, right?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I was thinking of I can, you know, I'll fix you for my son.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then this realization came you can't fix him, you can fix you.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so that changed that song now.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: When I listen to it, I'm singing it to me.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a joyful song.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: It still brings tears, but they're tears of wow, I'm allowing, I have grown so much that I can go through the really difficult things when of having an adult child who's struggling, and I can still be an incredible, I can love me and I can be happy.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: I find myself feeling teary just hearing you acknowledge that because that's that is like a major talk about both and right.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's a major growth.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I say so often that for me, the hardest part of being a mom is realizing and recognizing that I cannot prevent my children from feeling their own pain.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: And yet that process of giving ourselves permission to feel something different while our children are feeling pain, it's hard to do.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: We think that in order to be empathic or to connect or to stay steady or to take care of them, we need to pay feel the pain with them.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, that doesn't help them and it doesn't help us.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: And what a beautiful moment in just the tangibility of that song, right?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: Being able to shift the perspective of that song.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's so powerful.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's so and it did really make me realize that there is a choice in this.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have a choice, and my choice now is to take care of me and be the best version of me that I can be.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that includes so much that I still have I have so much work to do around, you know, inner child work.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much healing every time I don't we all, don't we all do?
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I do any breath work or inner child or anything, it's there's always something.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm realizing that's how we all get better.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: And allowing that just to just to be and and know that with every day, and this is where this this Joe Topia thing, it's it's weird.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: I did it two years ago without really fully understanding what it was, but it's becoming more and more my my mantra.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like even on my darkest days, I can find the sun.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that is something now when I come into my office, I see it, it's in my face, the sun is in my face.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: And even on those days where I don't feel up to it, I can find something to be grateful for.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: I can find something to make me laugh.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think it was just in sharing my story and in talking about it, the loneliness is gone.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's gone.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's it, it just makes it so much better when you tell someone.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm imagining that there might be some listeners who are feeling a little teary with us on this call today because they feel less alone hearing you be so brave and vulnerable and authentic and honest with your story.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: You're not alone, you know that.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_03: But the the amount of women who have gone through similar things in bits and pieces is enormous.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it is that interconnectedness, right?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Lisa Miller, who's a psychologist, I've talked about this on the podcast before, has done this incredible research on the role of spirituality in mental health, and that people who have a sense of interconnectedness, that's really her definition of spirituality, being held in something larger than themselves, are less likely to struggle with depression and anxiety.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what I hear you talking about.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, yeah, you know, loneliness, I think for many of us really comes when we feel not necessarily quote unquote alone, but unseen and disconnected.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: And your ability to sort of tell your story and connect with others, of course, it feels less lonely.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's so soothing for our nervous system.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: Will you tell us what you do to take care of yourself now?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_03: What are maybe two, three, four sort of non-negotiables for you that are really important in your mental health care?
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still learning.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's still uh the habits that are ingrained from before still tend to come back.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing every day is I take my dog Luna for a walk, and it's the two of us, rain or shine.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't just take her for a walk.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I call it my angel walks with Luna.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm looking, I'm I'm I empty my brain before I go, and it's a really intentional walk with me and Luna, and we, you know, we look for hearts in nature and and I'm listening to the birds, and that's my that's how I start my day.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: After I've dropped the kids off at school, I come home and I have my my morning walk with Luna.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, to be honest, everything out there aren't I'm learning, so there are other things now.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm starting to look into nutrition.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I am very now I have a very decent breakfast every morning that I've grown to love and things like that.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm starting to feel into what else will work, and that's been big for me because self-care was non-existent.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it didn't exist, and so for now the walk with Luna is is the main thing, and then and then, you know, just honestly washing my hair and washing my face and things like that.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I had this this pink hat that I would wear that I'm gonna frame it because it's it's no longer in use.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I when I was wearing that pink hat, it was a statement.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was pissed off, I hadn't washed my hair.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: Don't come near me.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: And now I I can't remember the last time I wore that hat, you know.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's things like just knowing that I need to feel better and let's just have a shower.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's amazing.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, just the intention of turning back in towards yourself and caring for yourself has made such a difference.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: I I uh you may or may not need me to say this, but I'm just going to remind you that that walk with Luna has many things in it, right?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: You're in nature, you're connecting with your nature, but also your dog, you're moving your body, you're outside, you're breathing, right?
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: Even though it's quote unquote just a walk with Luna, you've incorporated all these things that we know our brains need to be healthy and well.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: Your work, one of the other, one of my other favorite kind of research studies on depression, it talks about how the anecdote to depression is play.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_03: We forget to play.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: Now, we won't talk about all the definitions of play on this podcast, on this episode, but the truth is that when I hear you talk about writing, it's creativity, creative play, like really just doing whatever is coming out of us, right?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: So writing your book and the Joe Topia work, that's all play.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so the more you engage in that, the less likely you are to get stuck in those mindsets and thinking and actions and behaviors that lead you towards depression.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: So and you talked about seeing a therapist and a coach.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I want to name those things again because I think there might be people listening who don't really know where to get started.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it can look as quote unquote simple as going for a walk with your dog.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: It can, yeah.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: But understanding all of the pieces that are helpful to our brains in that walk with our dog.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like what there's so much in that that helps our brain to lean towards health and wellness.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's so amazing.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, before I ask you to tell everyone where they can find you, I have one more question for you.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_03: You could ask this either way.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_03: Either, this is not, I did not make up this question, sort of a cliched question, but it feels very appropriate to ask right now.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: The question I want to ask is what would you now in your in this space on this date in this seat, what would you want your 20-year-old self to know?
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: The other way of asking that question is if there are people out there who are struggling with some of the things you were struggling with back then, what do you think is important for them to know now that you're not there anymore?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think the most important thing to know is that you are not alone.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: And what I would tell my 20-year-old self is ask for help.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to ask for help.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you do, it's there, help is there.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: Ask for help and be ready to receive it.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_03: I just got the shit.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_03: I got the chills.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's really quite simple.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_03: The act of it may feel hard, but the reflection, the wisdom is quite simple.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it alone.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to do it alone.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: You don't.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is lonely in itself when you try and do it alone.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when you do allow in help and you ask for help, it just changes everything.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: It really does.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that would be my biggest thing, is to let people know they are not alone.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it starts by saying, I'm not okay.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's the hardest thing to say, but once you say I'm not okay, you'll get help.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: It will come to you.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so grateful of so much of this conversation.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_03: I just adore you.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: I adore your grit and your perseverance and your hard work and your bravery, but also your softness and your vulnerability and your honesty and your ability to sort of really go inward and recognize and reflect and have that insight and awareness that there are things you were doing and continue to do because you're human that contribute to the things that aren't working for you, right?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: What part am I playing in the I'm I'm waking up, I'm feeling really depressed, I'm really anxious, I'm moving through the world, I'm feeling angry.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: What part am I playing in that?
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: That is not I'm to blame, I'm bad, this is my fault.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's just what part am I playing and how can I shift those things to do something different to help me feel better?
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_03: And your explanation of what that looked like for you in your life is just so helpful.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um where can people find you?
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: Where can they talk with you?
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_03: Where can they read your books?
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_03: Tell us about more about Jotopia for a moment.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm on Instagram at Living in Jotopia.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my website is living in Jotopia.com.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually going through a bit of a pivot with my business at the moment.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I I will be 50 this year.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know you just said, yeah, you're accepted.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the I think the Women Over 50s Club is the best club.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what's so great is that every woman will get there.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_03: This is not an exclusive club because you get to join.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_03: But when you join, there are amazing women over 50 in the world, right?
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm so excited about, is is is how exciting it is.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: And to kind of shine a light on this isn't bad.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is amazing.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, gorgeous.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've shifted a little bit in that I'm now I my so I've written three children's books.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also my youngest son and I are about to publish.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's written another book, so he's written a chapter book that's coming out.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I my book for mums is Dear Mama Bear with the F D up hair.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's on all of my books are on um Amazon or online.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty much anywhere books are sold, you can ask for Dear Mama Bear with the F D up hair.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's there.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the pivot I've taken is actually to start talking about perimenopause and menopause because that's part of the story, too, is I didn't realize, I had no idea what perimenopause was.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: So now I write silly poems about the symptoms of uh perimenopause and menopause too.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: Dear peri and menopause, the sneaky snarky sisters.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm having fun with that.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's all reproductive mental health.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we're talking about.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's all reproductive mental health.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I love how you bring, again, I just said it, play and humor and joy to these topics that are painful.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_03: And we will link to all of your books on our show notes.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just a gift to the world.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, I'm just really grateful for you and your time.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for keeping me company today.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed it.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_03: Hey you guys, it's Kate.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_03: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_03: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_03: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_03: So take a minute.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: We'd be so grateful.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for being here.