Latest / Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast / The Incendiary Deep Dive (Ch. 44–52) | Ary's Rage, Found (and Lost) Family, & Power Reveal
Transcript
- Rachel: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy and romance books, one trope at a time. I'm Rachel, romantasy theorist. Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things dark and spicy. Rachel: And today is episode five of our six episode deep dive of the incendiary by LJ Claren. Kate: This episode will cover chapters forty-four to fifty-two of the book from the perspective of two people who have read the full book. So that means spoilers. If you don't know what the earth-shattering last three words of the book are, pause the podcast and come back once you've finished reading. Rachel: We're still a new podcast, so we truly appreciate your support by liking, subscribing, leaving a thoughtful review, and sharing with a friend. Our goal is to make sure every fantasy and romance reader has a book bestie to gush over their favorite theories and their favorite spicy moments. And we absolutely love chatting with you. So be sure to connect with us on social media. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook at Deep Trope Podcast. Kate: Finally, before we begin, be sure to check the content warnings for the book because all trigger warnings from the book apply to this podcast. And we're two unfiltered, opinionated millennials, so maybe grab your headphones if you're around little ones or anyone easily offended. Rachel: All right. Should we dive into the incendiary? Kate: Yeah, let's get into it. So we're picking back up in an Ary POV chapter. And Ary just was attacked in the showers by Alec Gerard and his cronies. After what seemed to be an otherworld visit with Gavin, Ary manages to gather her strength and drag herself to Abram's cabin, and he immediately welcomes her in and attempts to comfort and help her. Ary tells him the names of the four men who attacked her, but doesn't give details and can't bring herself to show Abram her thighs. She does ask him for supplies to treat flesh wounds, though. When Ary clenches her hands so tightly that they bleed, Abram insists on getting the commander, thinking he can help, but Elias arrives and says literally all of the wrong things. He cuts Ary off, telling her she shouldn't have been in the showers alone at night, and then he asks if the men fucked her. Rachel: Fucked her. Fucked her. Fuck you, Eli. The word is rape. just say it. Ugh. Kate: Seriously, yeah. I this whole section with him drove me absolutely nuts, you know that. But Ary pushes back and asks what if they had, and fucking Eli says he'll send them to Warrich. Warrich, like are you kidding me? That's literally not a punishment, and he basically implies that he would do nothing if they didn't rape her. Rachel: This is so painful. Eli does everything you shouldn't do in this scenario, and he even tells Ary that he told her not to provoke them. Kate: Yeah. he could not have handled this worse. When Ary reveals that they were spies for Molochai, Elias doesn't really believe her. He responds that they proved their loyalty by killing the butcher. So Ary leaves thinking about how Gavin would have killed them already. Like, yeah, he would have. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I know that we're gonna see Elias regret how he handled this situation. for the rest of the book, he's gonna be trying to redeem himself. But holy shit, I wanted to throttle him so hard in this scene. Like you said, he somehow managed to do everything wrong, and not just wrong, but wrong in a way that's so extreme that he could be causing Ary even further trauma with this interaction. I know he's blinded by the euphoria of finally defeating the butcher, but it's not like this is the first time we've seen sexist behavior from him either. So it's not like I can't fully pin this fuck up on just those circumstances. I'm not sure if Ary is ever going to fully forgive him, and I don't know if I will either. Rachel: Yeah, I I I feel you. I mean, obviously they're gonna have to go through quite the journey together to get past this, but they do have three more books after this. that being said, you know, I when we talked to LJ, she really talked a lot about Eli's Character arc and the growth that we're going to see from him. And I think it was really well written because so many women unfortunately go through something like this and have somebody very close to them or somebody that they thought they could trust react poorly. so I think it's a very important scene. Kate: That that's very true. And I think that's why I reacted so viscerally to it is because Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: it was so unfortunately relatable, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: especially right now, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: we're just seeing so much of this being surfaced currently of men just fucking raking women over the coals and not taking any responsibility and not being the support that that people need, you know? So it's yeah, it it did it sucked. Like this scene hurts so much more than when we see like Molochai be the most evil villain that like he could possibly be. I don't know, this one hurt more. Rachel: Yeah, yeah, I feel you. Kate: So Ary stumbles into her cabin, unintentionally waking up Mavic and Mina, who immediately jump to help her. Mina tenderly cares for her wounds, reassuring Ary that what the men carved on her skin is not who she is. Rachel: Mina is really the perfect person to help Ary through this. She's just so gentle and considerate, but also firm because when she tells Ary that what these men did to her was horrible. And that even if she had slept with everybody in the fortress, Ary doesn't deserve this. And I just think that that's like the perfect kind of friend to have in that situation where they're just so caring and nurturing, but also firm. Like, Pulling you out of your own feelings and mind and and help centering her back in reality. And Ary has this moment where she wishes that Gavin or Gemma were there. And I think the line is like, but Mina was. And while I do understand Gavin, I really think Gemma would have maybe been one of the least capable people of helping Ary through this. She's just like not very nurturing, in my opinion. Kate: Yeah, maybe maybe we'll see more of that come out of her, as she, you know, becomes a mother. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: But yeah, I think you're right. I mean, Mina really did do if if if Eli did everything wrong, Mina did everything right. Rachel: Yes. Kate: she really was a great support for Ary here and was very protective and just Yeah, trying to kinda like you said, center her and stabilize her after such a traumatic Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: experience. So I I think I mean, I wish us all friends like Mina because Rachel: Yeah. Kate: she was great. So Ary tells Mina about her interaction with Elias, and infuriated, Mina notes that the only thing that seems to matter to Elias anymore is retribution. Ary reaches out mentally to Shera, who has returned from searching for Gavin. Rachel: And fortunately Shera is back within communication distance, so we get the return of our magical animal bond trope. Kate: Yep. Although Ary doesn't tell her everything that happened. Rachel: Yep. Mm-hmm. Kate: Which is an interesting choice. I mean, I think it's because Shera would probably go off the rails and kill everybody involved, including Eli. So, Ary. Rachel: Yes. Yes. She she would she would make a feast and ask questions later. Kate: Yes. but still it is interesting that that Ary is keeping something so big from her. But Shera confirms that Gavin drank the poison around his neck after learning that Molochai learned Ary's name. She opened the vial of Ary's blood and got it on him and in his mouth, but she says it didn't work. She waited an entire week to see if he would wake up, but he didn't move or breathe the entire time. Rachel: And of fucking course, Alec Gerard and his band of fucking low life nitwits couldn't take down Gavin Smith. Of course they took credit for it, but they couldn't do it. Kate: Seriously. yeah, absolutely. There was no way Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: that they were actually the ones responsible for killing him. that was just never Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: gonna be the reality. Ary begs to see his body, but Shera insists that it's not a good idea and it'll only hurt her more. And I thought this was kind of sus. as we say, no body, no crime. Without Ary getting eyes on the body, I just wasn't convinced what his fate actually was going to be. Rachel: I feel you, but I also think this is the right call by Shera because Ary does not need to see a very decayed Gavin. Kate: fair, at absolutely, that's true. But I just like I just don't trust Shera here because we already know that she knows so much more than she's telling Ary. That I'm just like, I don't know. I just wasn't sure that sh Ary was getting the full story here from Shera. Rachel: So, do you not believe that he was resurrected? Kate: No, I do, but I don't know. I just don't like I believe that Shera is telling the truth with what happened, but I don't believe that she is telling Ary everything that she knows. Like I still feel like maybe Shera knew that there was a possibility that he could come back. Rachel: Interesting. Kate: So yeah, maybe her account of what actually happened is true, but I'm just not convinced that she is not still holding something back from her like otherworldly knowledge that we know that she has, you Rachel: Hm. Kate: know. Rachel: Yeah. who knows? She knows so much and she tells us so little. Kate: I know. And honestly, as much as we're obviously going to learn Gavin's fate by the end of this, we're we're not really gonna get any more information from Shera. So that's something Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: that I'm hoping that we get more of in the next few books because that kitty cat knows some things and I wanna know those things. Rachel: Yeah, we need her to spill the tea. Kate: Yeah. Ary is devastated to learn what happened when Shera found Gavin, and she's struggling to come to terms with the news, but she's grateful for the dream that she had of him directly after the attack, noting that at least she got to tell him she loved him in the dream. And she questions here whether that dream might have been a visit from Gavin on his way out. And I think that's a real possibility. Rachel: I agree. I definitely think this was the other world, just like Ary visited at the end of the Silversmith. And that it felt very similar, where it was like it just was very perfect, personal and Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: perfect, but also she couldn't stay. And Gavin very specifically told her she couldn't stay. Kate: Yes, and that's the thing because that's exactly what Ollie said, right? Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Ollie was like, You gotta go, you can't stay here. Rachel: Mm. Something also to note here in this chapter is that Ary is so broken. She would have spent the whole night on the bathroom floor. And Mina really wants to give her boundaries when she requests them. So she's leaning toward doing that. But Mavic steps in. And picks her up and places her into bed, which is what Ary really needed in that moment. And in this chapter, despite how heartbreaking it is, it really gives us another one of those found family moments. And it's just so heartwarming to see that Ary has such wonderful friends who knows who both know what she needs better than she knows in that moment, and who are willing to step in and protect her, as we're about to see as well. That being said, I was. Very concerned about this line that we get from Mavic: quote, you're safe in here, Ary. I promise. On my life. Kate: Yeah, it's definitely concerning. But like you said, she has really good friends, and Ary isn't the only one who is willing to sacrifice herself for the people that she cares about. I think she's surrounded Rachel: Yeah. Kate: by a f a few people that fall into that category. Rachel: Yeah, I'm just saying we know from LJ that s there are more people on the chopping block. Kate: I know, I know. I don't wanna see Ary lose more of her family, but we don't know. Rachel: I'm hoping that it was just foreshadowing for that scene that we get at the end. Kate: Yeah. Hopefully. Hopefully. There's three more books, but Rachel: I know. Kate: Elias goes to Ary's cabin the morning after her attack to try to make things right with her. He knows he fucked up really badly, especially now that he's confirmed that she was right about the men being spies for Molochai. Mavic and Mina answer the door and are in full-on protective friend mode. They're furious at Elias for dismissing Ary when she needed his support. Elias says he had a lapse in judgment, and Mina counters that his lapse in judgment resulted in lifelong trauma for Ary. Despite his powerful position as their commander, they push back and don't let him in to see Ary. They literally tell him to fuck off. And this was perfect. I love that they didn't let his position get in the way of protecting Ary. Rachel: Mm. Kate: they could easily have been swayed by the fact that he's their commander. they could have real consequences for pushing back and telling him to fuck off. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: But also, Elias fucked up so bad here. That I don't know what magical words he was planning to put in his apology, but I I don't think that a simple apology was gonna make up for anything here. I am Rachel: Yeah. Kate: I mean we don't we don't actually know what he was going to say here because he didn't get the opportunity, thankfully, thanks to to Mavic and Mina, but Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I was like, really? You're just gonna come and be like, I'm sorry. Rachel: 5 a.m. I think it was said 5 a.m. or something crazy. Kate: Yeah. yeah, right? let the girl sleep. Rachel: yes. Like he just has no clue. I mean, he's clearly like a very smart and strategic commander, but he has no clue. Typical man. Kate: Nope, no clue. Yeah. Emotional intel intelligence of a peanut. Rachel: Yeah. I absolutely love seeing Mavic and Mina go full mama bear on Eli. And we know Mavic is so protective of his sister, and we see it in throughout the book. And Ary's getting that care now as well. So he's really like viewing her as a sister. And like you said, this took some serious courage. Elias could have easily turned and thrown the two of them in a prison cell for disobeying orders. Like that is that's some guts right there. Kate: For sure. So while she's recovering, Ary has a dream where she's with Gavin in the hot springs and they end up kissing instead of holding back like they did in real life. And obviously, this is a desire of Ary's that could very well have come through in a dream. But now I'm questioning all of her dreams. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So is it possible that this is a vision that Gavin sent her? Like showing her what he wished he'd done when they were together. Because it also didn't turn into a nightmare, like she noted. so many of her dreams typically do. And she said before that Gavin chases away her nightmares. So maybe he's actively doing that here. What do you think? Rachel: I know, I had the same thought, and the chapter even starts with this line quote, The gods had mercy on me because I dreamt of him. So if Nyxar controls dreams and now Gavin has his powers, this definitely seems like a gift from Gavin. Kate: Yeah. I hope so. I hope so. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Abram comes to give her some more pain meds, along with contraceptive meds, and apologizes for bringing Elias in after the attack. He says Eli was wrong to react the way that he did. And it's just nice to see people supporting Ary and acknowledging what an asshole Eli was. Rachel: I also love that Abram doesn't push Ary or ask questions and he just shows up and gives her the emergency contraceptive and a long-term contraceptive and just says, like, do with it what you wish, but I just want you to have this. Kate: Right. Again, actually supporting her and Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: not traumatizing her further. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Ary gathers her strength and is determined to go to training, despite the pain and exhaustion. When she arrives to train, Elias rushes to apologize to her, but she's having none of it. She insists on sparring, so Elias joins her on the mat. He refuses to hurt her, being gentle even as he wins the fight, but Ary says he's already hurt her more than any sparring match could. As he walks away, Ary is filled with rage and throws a dagger past his head, nicking his ear. And this scene was reminiscent of one of my favorite scenes in the Hunger Games when Katniss shoots the arrow into the group of game makers because she got so mad that they're like ignoring her while she's like her life literally depends on it. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: And this kind of display of female rage mixed with the impressive physical talent is honestly so much fun. I love that we're seeing that from Ary. And like she just had something so traumatic. and brutal happened to her and she still has that fight and I fucking love it. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yes, agree. Even if maybe it was not the smartest decision, as we'll see. But I Kate: Maybe not, but Rachel: love I love the drama. Let's discuss the aftermath because Valda and several other soldiers immediately swarm Ary and push her to the ground, and she could have easily been killed for what could be interpreted as an assassination attempt. But instead, Elias rages and screams at them not to touch her, and no one else knows what happened here. I would just love to be a fly on the wall to hear what the gossips are saying at lunch that. Day. Kate: seriously, because you look at this interaction, and I mean, what the fuck is going on here? Like from the outside perspective, Rachel: Yes. Kate: you're like, what? Cause like, even just from the beginning, you see Fera show up and she's like clearly fucked up, like she's not Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: okay, and she's like insisting on sparring, and then you see her in the ring with Eli. And I'm sure that everybody could tell that he was holding back quite a bit. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: And then you see her throw a dagger at his head, the commander. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: And then when she gets like, you know, apprehended by the rest of the soldiers, and then Eli rages at them, like, yeah, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: this whole scene must be just fucking crazy from anybody who has no idea what's going on. Rachel: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Kate: So Ary finally recovers enough to heal the worst of her physical wounds, but she still is devastated by the loss of Gavin. She spends days secretly weeping and dissociating as she thinks about him. Meanwhile, Elias is becoming increasingly jealous of any male attention that Ary gets. To piss him off, Ary asks Mavic to kiss her, and this leads to Elias storming off in a huff, and Ary laughing to the point of tears with Mina and Mavic. Ary asks Mina. Rachel: It's just the again the drama. Again with the drama. It's just Kate: I know, she sh she's provoking him so much, which honestly, like fair, I she's pissed at him and she wants to piss him off. So I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate: get it. I do also like that this kind of stupid move on her part does lead to her like finally having a moment of joy though. Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kate: Ary then asks Mina to give her a tattoo of Forget Me Nots, but not telling her that they're a tribute to Gavin. And these are the kind of moments that make the found family trope just so lovely, because she's devastated and hurt both physically and emotionally, but her new family is helping her heal both. Rachel: And as we've discussed on this podcast before during our Wolves of Ruin coverage, tattoos are such a perfect way to cope with a loss like this. It's a permanent marking of the person on your body, but there's also that like momentary physical pain to sort of represent the emotional pain. And I'm gonna call this a trope because it happens enough in romantasy that I think it's it's fair to mark it down as a trope. Kate: All right. I'll I'll allow it. Rachel: Ha ha. Kate: The next day, Valda orders Ary to attend a briefing in the main hall first thing in the morning, and along the way, she runs into Finn Sinclair, and he immediately recognizes her. Finn is happy to see Ary, but tells her that Gemma is getting punished by Eli for what happened to Ary and that Ezra, who still believes that she is dead, is still devastated by her loss. Finn asks Ary to reveal her identity sooner. But Ary insists that she needs to finish commencement first, and then she will reveal the truth to Eli and everybody else. Elias catches them talking, and Ary makes up a story about them meeting when Finn was stationed near Brinnea years ago. Rachel: And Elias is so annoying here because despite the fact that Ary told him previously that she hasn't slept with anyone, at least not in this lifetime, he's convinced that Finn slept with her four years ago when she was underage, and he's like a total dick about it. why is this always the first place his mind goes? Kate: Seriously. Like he just does not listen to her or respect her enough to believe what she tells him. Because, like you said, she literally told him that that isn't a possibility. And he's still convinced and is just like not actually believing what she says, which is always infuriating. Rachel: clearly his spidey senses are up about her, and it's fair to be like, how do you possibly know this soldier? But still annoying. Kate: Yeah, it is. In the briefing, Elias informs the group that two of their soldiers have been captured by Insidions. To Ary and Finn's dismay, one of them is Gemma. Elias plans to confront the small group of Insidions, and he asks Ary to join them in the third wave of soldiers while Finn goes ahead in the first wave. By the time Ary arrives on the battlefield, the Insidions are already defeated, but she's suddenly recognized by Ezra, who is among the fighters. Ezra is in shock, realizing she is still alive, and calls Ary by her real name. Elias overhears, forcing Ary to reveal herself ahead of schedule. In his shock over discovering Ary's true identity, Elias fails to notice an arrow shot at him by a remaining insidion. But Ary stops it with her powers. Elias falls to his knees in front of Ary, clearly feeling a wide range of emotions, but Ary tells him to get up, telling him, quote, your queen commands it. Rachel: Finally Although Fucking Ezra cockblocked Ary in the Silversmith and now he ruined her plan as well. Like some people are just the worst. No matter what scenario, they are just the worst every time. Kate: Gee, I wonder how you're gonna feel about certain events at the end of this book. Rachel: I wasn't heartbroken, let's just say that. Kate: Ha ha ha ha. Elias recovers from his initial shock, but insists that Ary leave the battlefield as more insidions suddenly emerge and begin attacking again, including one that almost stabs Ary in the back. Rachel: So at this point, it's obvious that this was a trap. And earlier, Ary had been so impressed by Elias' detailed strategy to recover Gemma. It's not like him to just walk into a trap like this with himself and some of his top fighters and his army. Because, we know he's I don't think he wants to sacrifice people, but I think he's good at balancing the choices, the impossible choices of like. Two people versus your entire army, right? but he he didn't have all of the information. So, I mean, love Ary's plan. And for the most part, I think it was the right choice. But I do have to say maybe she should have revealed herself after Alec Gerard's attack because at that point, we know there are at least four spies in the army. Elias isn't listening to her when she tells him this, and Molochai is aware of Ary's location. Kate: Yeah, that's true. And I hadn't really thought about that, but yeah, Ary like at this point, the information that she's keeping back from Eli is potentially very dangerous. Rachel: Yeah, yeah, and we see Ary grow leaps and bounds in her decision making from the Silversmith to the incendiary, partially because she's like woken up and she's a full person now. But this was not a good one, in my opinion. Kate: Yeah. Yeah, this wasn't very strategic of her. Rachel: I just don't know how you can't see that you just sent off four dangerous men who for a fact are spies. And weirdly, Molochai has captured two people who apparently this is like a rare thing. It doesn't happen often that they come this close and capture two people. And like that the negotiations don't work. Cause they talk about how they like tried to offer safe passage for them, basically, if they gave them back. And one of them is one of the people that's closest to you. So that you're gonna Right. So you're gonna get the queen Kate: Yeah, one of them just happens to be somebody that you care about. Rachel: on the battlefield. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. No, again, like we know for sure that this was a trap because Molochai literally confirms it at the end, but it also like seems like it would have been not that hard to figure that out even without getting it confirmed from him directly, you know. Rachel: Well, and I think with the information in front of him, Elias would have known that. But he didn't know that it was Ary. So he had no idea that there Kate: Yeah. Trip. Rachel: was a connection between her and Gemma. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. So, it's it's definitely for the best that everybody knows who Ary is now. So we, you know, can be more prepared for these kinds of scenarios, but Moving on. So Gemma, now free from the insidions, finds Ary and greets her with a hug before suddenly being brutally stabbed by an insidion. Seeing her friend mortally wounded snapped the last thread of Ary's restraint, and she unleashes her pent-up rage on the approaching enemy in a tidal wave of fire. Rachel: And this is the moment I wanted from Ary's big reveal because the moment Kate: Yes. Rachel: with Eli is lackluster. yes, it's love, it's like amazing to see him just drop to his knees and realize how much of a fuck up he was. But I wanted that big show of power. Kate: Agreed. The insidions, along with the forest that they came from, are completely leveled by the flames, and Ary releases an equally powerful wave of Rainar's water to douse the fire, leaving the army in awe of her abilities. Rachel: And Sussurro's Wind combined with Fine Mist from Rainar, s because she's a show-off. Kate: Yeah, it was this was a a grand show of power for sure. Rachel: Yes. Kate: Ary rushes to save Gemma, who is quickly succumbing to her wounds. Ary reaches for Viridian's power, warning Eli not to interfere even if she's hurt in the process. As she assesses Gemma's injuries, she recognizes a second thread of life existing alongside Gemma's. Gemma is pregnant and she begs Ary to save her baby if she can only save one of them. Ary vows to save them both, even if it kills her. And here we go. Ary sacrificing herself for others once again. And listen, I absolutely understand her desire and instinct to put her friends and family's lives above her own. She can't stand to see anyone else she cares about die. But genuinely, what would the consequences be of her sacrificing herself for Gemma here? Like, let's just say Ary heals Gemma and her baby, but she dies in the process, which she's willing to do. What hope Then does Gemma and her family have for a better future? I know why Ary has this instinct. I get it, but I feel like at some point she has to recognize the significant role that she has to play in ending this conflict. there's a very real possibility that Ary is the only person capable of defending Nyrida against Molochai or whatever evil is coming for them. Like, not just that she's gonna play a major role, like she might be the only person capable of that. And sacrificing herself for one of her friends will end up putting the entire rest of the country at huge risk. It's just I don't know, at this point, she can't just go throwing herself in front of everybody's arrows. Rachel: Well, so we know Ary is self-sacrificing and it's like the core of who she is, and that she would do Kate: Yes. Rachel: anything to protect those she loves. And now it's even she feels even more strongly because she's lost the love of her life and there was nothing that she could do, at least to her knowledge currently. And we know Viridian's power temporarily takes something from her, but to be fair, we've never seen it actually kill Ary. at least not permanently. Kate: R right. Rachel: I'm not convinced that anything can permanently kill Ary. So I'm wondering if that's the gamble that Ary took here. But I don't know if if what do you think that she should have done? do you think that she shouldn't have saved Gemma? Kate: No, I just think that she shouldn't kill herself for it. do your best. try, and do everything that you think that you can, but stop just short of like actually killing yourself for it, you know? That's Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: just the thing. It's like I don't know, it just seems seems more reckless for her to just be like, if this kills me, so be it. Like you can't, I don't know, I just feel like she can't always be thinking that way at this point, knowing the role that she or at least having an idea of the role that she has to play in saving like an entire continent. Rachel: would kill her. I think she just has to take a nap. She's like Grogu. Kate: Well, no, I'd I I agree. I don't think that it would kill her, but she doesn't know that. That's the thing. She's like, if this kills me, so be it. So we know that Rachel: Yeah. Kate: she probably can't actually die, but she's willing to take the risk, not necessarily knowing that for sure at this point. That's just my point of like it just seems reckless at this point. And again, I totally understand why she feels that way and that that's like a core of her being. It's just, you know. Like you were saying about Elias being strategic of would he have put his entire army at risk for Gemma if he had known the entire situation? Maybe not. Because maybe it's not worth putting that many people at risk for one person. And Ary, every time she th, you know, potentially risks her her life for somebody else. That's what she's doing. She's putting an entire continent of people potentially at risk for that. So again, knowing that she can't actually die. It's not as annoying. But she doesn't know that yet. Rachel: Maybe she does. 'Cause she she just kinda Kate: Maybe but then Rachel: warns them don't step in, even if it looks bad. And she does pass out. She needs a nap. Kate: But she specifically says, even if it kills her. Rachel: Yeah, but I just think that's yeah, I hear what you're saying. Kate: Yeah. So you you know what I mean. it's like if she genuinely thinks that she's risking her life, that's that's not a good idea, is what I'm ultimately trying to say. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Elias picks Ary up when she collapses after healing Gemma, and he's in complete awe of her. Her power, her lies and deception, her selflessness, her beauty, her very existence is astounding to him. He's also surprised to recognize that not only is she his queen. But now she's also his friend, or maybe more, since he doesn't have to feel guilty about his feelings for her anymore. And Eli orders Valda to protect Gemma and bring the rest of the cadets to the caves to finish commencement there. He's gutted to think about everything Ary went through in the time that he's known her. And the idea that he's more gutted about how she was treated now that he knows who she is versus when she was Fera is pretty annoying. like she needed that title in order for him to respect her enough to care about how she's treated. Like it just he seemed so much more upset now that he knows, which like I kind of get, but he should have cared a lot without knowing Rachel: Yeah. Kate: who she was. Rachel: Yeah, it's so true. we did see that he felt awful prior to knowing her identity, but I'm still glad we get to really see him stew it as fuck ups here. Kate: Same. He realizes that everything will change now that the queen is alive and he's seen what she's capable of. Ary wakes up after a dreamless sleep to find herself in the caves with Eli sitting beside her bed. Ary is surprised to find that rather than anger, Eli mostly seems confused and disappointed by her deception. Rachel: And we get a line from Elias here that really enforces that his life was decided for him since he was born. And again, I have to wonder why this very specific path was determined for him. I think this is the first time that we get confirmation that becoming commander was also predetermined for him, not just that he would become Ary's husband. And this really makes me think that Simeon attempted to conjure the perfect leader for their army. So his quote. The specific quote was My sole purpose since the day I was born has been to become your commander and your husband. Kate: Very interesting. And Rachel: Mm. Kate: I know you're looking for any clues about Simeon's Ken doll. Rachel: Well it's just so strange that he needs to be both. I there has to be more to the story. Kate: Yeah. What's the plan? Right? Because we Rachel: Right. Kate: know that Gavin is convinced that Simeon has like a very specific plan for Elias. He doesn't know what it is, but he's like Rachel: Mm. Kate: there's a larger plot here that Rachel: Yes. Kate: we haven't seen yet. Ary attempts to explain why she chose to hide her identity, telling him that she needed to figure out who she is and what her role is without the burden of everyone's preconceived notions of her and her purpose. She wanted to prove herself to everyone without her title getting in the way. She says that she had to do this one thing for herself before she sacrificed her heart and her life for her people. Elias is still hurt by her actions, but he understands her desire to choose a path for herself given the very narrow path that he's had to walk his whole life, like you said. He also seems surprised to hear that she awoke without any memories. And it's interesting that Simeon kept the details of Ary's life from Eli. It seems like a really important thing to know about your betrothed if she has no memories of her life before a year ago. So I'm surprised that Simeon didn't at least feed Eli the same story that Ary got originally, like something. Like Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: he must know Ary would share the details with him once they met. You know, like that's a very important part of who she is and like why she Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: is the way that she is. So what's the reason for not sharing the story ahead of time? I would think Simeon would have wanted to control the narrative more here. Rachel: The whole thing is just so sus, and we know that this wasn't Simeon's plan. Simeon planned to meet Ary before she met Elias, so I wonder if he had more magic plan to sort of manipulate the situation. Kate: Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I mean, 'cause he he knew that Ary he knew what Ary was doing this whole time, you know, like being Fera and kind of tricking Eli. So it still seems like like Simeon had time to come up with an alternate plan and he just kind of didn't, at least Rachel: Yeah. Kate: from that perspective. So I don't I don't know. It's it was just interesting that such a an important piece was completely news Eli. Eli explains that the citizens of the caves are unsettled by Ary's power, despite the relief that they feel at her unexpected return, and he asks her to lay low for a while while they come up with a plan on how to handle things. Rachel: sorry. They waited for her for 400 years, but are unsettled by her power. again, a fumble by Simeon. How did he allow this to happen? this is bad PR. Kate: Seriously. He had so much time to prepare people for her arrival. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: even with the change in plans here, he still had 400 plus years to present a narrative about Ary, but he Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: failed to do anything. He's controlling all the knowledge and history being taught, but can't control the narrative around her. It's suspicious enough that I almost wonder if he wants people to be unsettled by her. Rachel: Mm. Kate: Later. We see him argue that she should marry Elias to get people to trust her more and to present a united front. So maybe he wants her to feel a little disconnected from the people to push her more towards Eli. I don't know. Rachel: Yeah, I could that make that makes sense because we know how manipulative he is, that he's just creating this Kate: Right. Rachel: scenario where she needs Eli or believes that she needs Eli. Kate: Right. So what's his plan for Eli? Why is he so important to this whole thing? I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: that's one thing that we've known is an important piece of the puzzle, but I honestly don't really have a theory for it yet. Rachel: Well, he wanted he tells Ary that he sterilized her later on. He tells her that he sterilized her. Which I don't know if that's true or not, or if he that was just his gut instinct to lie about why she had the scar, or if it was a result of the C-section, because he didn't know what he was doing, But I almost wonder if it's something about them needing to have a child together. Kate: Maybe. Rachel: And I'm about to put a Tinfoil hat on because what if Kate: Yeah. Rachel: we are wrong about who holds Nyxar's powers and it's the Wintertons and by somehow combining forces because Nyxar can like delete powers, what if that somehow like erases her powers? Because Simeon seems convinced that her powers should not continue. Kate: Yeah, he's like it needs to end with us. Rachel: But also it doesn't make sense because then why wouldn't he have killed her baby? Kate: I have no idea. we we haven't seen any indication that the Wintertons have power. Obviously, we have not spent a lot of time with the grandparents. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: but Eli himself, we haven't seen any indication of that. But we also well actually I can't I can't say that we didn't get any indications of it from Gavin either because we did have a few points where we questioned it. So even before he like fully presented powers. Rachel: Yeah, and I f I actually think that LJ might have confirmed that Eli's just a regular hottie. Not a powerful one. Yeah. Kate: Yeah. Just your average hottie. Rachel: Hmm. Kate: I don't know, cause it 'cause again, that's the thing. Eli is the enigma for me of I don't know why he's so important and what role he's supposed to play. I have theories for so many other parts of this story. And he's just like, I don't why are you important? Rachel: I don't know, I think the prophecy's true. I think that for some reason he said the prophecy's a lie, but I think the prophecy's true, but I think it's actually talking about Gavin and he's trying to make it about Eli. Kate: Maybe. yeah, I was thinking that the prophecy might have not been completely fabricated, but just like manipulated. I don't Rachel: Mm. Kate: know. We'll have to keep thinking about that. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Ary asks Eli to sneak Shera into the caves and asks to see Damond, who she learns has been staying in the caves for about a month now. Rachel: And Shera hilariously tears Eli's shirt to shreds as she should, and she's basically like, That's your warning. Kate: Yeah. I I am a threat. You should treat me as such. I don't like you. Rachel: Yeah. Now take me to take me inside. Kate: Take me to Ary. Damond and Ary have an emotional reunion. Ary breaks down once she sees him, realizing that they are the only people truly mourning Gavin rather than celebrating his death. Rachel: And this is just so heartbreaking. Grief is such a terrible, lonely thing in and of itself. But this makes it even more unbearable. Kate: just not actually be able to grieve. Yeah. Rachel: Well, and that nobody knows what you're going through other than one other person. Kate: Exactly. But I'm glad Rachel: Yeah. Kate: that she at least has someone that she can fully be herself with and she doesn't have to put on Rachel: yeah. Kate: any masks. She doesn't have to pretend anything with Damond. So she has that one person at least as an outlet. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate: Ary again begs to search for Gavin, but Damond insists that he's gone and it wouldn't do any good. And again, I'm just suspicious. I don't know if I'm as suspicious about Damond. I don't know that he has as much knowledge, obviously, as Shera does, but they're so insistent that she not go looking for him or see his body for herself. Like even if they believe it won't make a difference or it might hurt her to see him. They're both flat out refusing to bring her to where he died or is buried. I don't know. I just didn't I do I just feel like they know something or obviously I are I always assume that Shera knows way more than she says, but is it possible that Damond knew something as well? Rachel: it does seem suspicious, but we know that Damond took it as his responsibility to take care of Ary. he views it as fulfilling Gavin's wishes. And I think he's really concerned that Ary would try to dig Gavin up and w see whatever that mess looks like and maybe try to save him. like, you know, you were very focused on Ary's self sacrificing tendencies. Don't you think Kate: I know. Rachel: that this is another example? Kate: Yes, she's she definitely would. She would have tried to resurrect his corpse. I yeah. But as you pointed out before, she can't really die. But yeah, Damond doesn't know that. She probably does. Rachel: Yeah, true. Sure probably does. Unless they know, I really don't think Damond knows anything, but Shera could know what the process is. Like, maybe Gavin has to go into the underworld and sort of do whatever he has to do to come back. Yeah, Kate: fight his way out. Yeah. Rachel: and like that because it takes a while until he comes back. Like Ary took I Kate: It has. Rachel: mean, it took her a while to recover, but I mean, she came back like that day, you know? Kate: Right. Rachel: And so I wonder if there's some kind of journey. No, I know, but I'm saying I wonder if there's Kate: Well, she has Viridian's powers. I don't so Rachel: some kind of journey that Gavin had to go through. Kate: I'm sure that it did. His his resurrection, I can't imagine, was the same process as as Ary's, he had he I think probably had to make some kind of deal or I don't know, yeah, fight his way out of of the underworld. Rachel: Yeah. So if that's the case, maybe Shera knows what's happening and she's like, trust the process. Kate: Yeah. Let him cook. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: But Damond gives Ary the wolf pelt that Gavin gave her, along with a letter from Gavin that he wrote in the event of his death. In the letter, Gavin tells Ary how much he loves her and encourages her to let him go and embrace life. He even tells her to embrace love again. He ends the letter telling her to destroy Molochai, shine her light, live, and be free. And it's heartbreaking to think that Ary believes he died not knowing that she still loved him. Like in the letter, he says that he doesn't know if she hates him or if she's forgiven him. And from Ary's perspective, just like how sad is it to think that the man that she loved died not knowing how she really felt? Rachel: It's absolutely gut-wrenching. how do you move on from that? That's terrible. I also think that there's a line that hints at Ary's powers and how she could potentially defeat Molochai. Quote, destroy Molochai, shine your light. So we wondered if there was more to Mavic's line about Ary looking like a love child of Aesta and Helios, and this really hints at that. Kate: Agreed. again, we've we've noted so many different references to quote her light. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: we haven't actually seen her wield light powers yet, but I think that she will. Rachel: Mm-hmm. And the incendiary, is that about fire or is it about light? Kate: Right. I think it's about light, personally. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Ary is also reunited with Gemma, who is fully healed and resting along with her healthy unborn baby. Rachel: So two things here. When Ary examines Gemma, she's fully healed but has a prominent scar. Just as Ary has scars where she has healed. And it's an interesting limitation to her magic, because even using Autumna's camouflage magic doesn't allow her to conceal scars. She eventually is able to use it to conceal bruises, but not scars. So I just find that interesting. I don't know that there's more to it. Kate: Is it the cost of the magic? Because we know that all magic Rachel: Maybe. Kate: has a cost and you just have to like have a physical reminder of the toll. Rachel: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, maybe. Also, Ary is able to feel two tendrils of life within Gemma, which is what we saw when she saved her as well. And that's how she discovered that there was, a baby. And it's interesting that she can sense life in this way. I wonder if Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: it's also a hint at Ary's true godhood and Christabel's clue, quote, that which commands life is, you know, the cured to breaking this blood curse, right? So perhaps Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: Ary herself is the goddess that commands life. Kate: I think that that could make sense. Viridian Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: already has the resurrection part of it, but Rachel: No, he has regeneration. That's what they call him, the god of regeneration. R resurrection, Kate: Right. Rachel: which I think she has. I'm not convinced that's Viridian. I think it might be something different. Kate: I don't know. I thought that we had asked LJ about that though. Did we not? Rachel: Well, you you kinda did. You kinda did and you kinda you didn't ask her straight up if that was Viridian's power. You just made a comment and Kate: Okay. All right. Rachel: she said, hmm. Kate: Hm. Rachel: Ha ha ha. Kate: 'Cause I wa I did question that when Ary came back of like, could Viridian's power actually be that strong? Or did it have some combination with Gavin's prayer and, some other things? Interesting. Ary feels what she describes as a deep nagging ache when she thinks about Gemma's baby. And this is another piece that we theorized in The Silversmith that Ary lost a baby or that a baby was stolen from her based on her period related trauma and references to something small and warm laying with her in her coma coffin. Rachel: Mm. Kate: But this reference to the nagging ache when she that she feels is like. one of a number of different hints in this chapter about Ary's missing baby as well. And it definitely solidified this theory for me. Even before we got confirmation later from Simeon, with everything, I was like, every reference to a baby, Ary has a reaction. Rachel: Yes, 100%. LJ was really hitting us over the head with clues here. And Kate: Yeah. Rachel: especially when Marin and Caz arrive with their baby and Ary reacts to the crying. And I believe Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: that mothers have, you know, sometimes a physical reaction to their baby's cry. And then we see Ary have this PTSD response. So clearly something happened to her baby. Like it's just so obvious there. Kate: Yeah, no, I don't think that LJ was trying to be subtle with this. Rachel: Ha ha Kate: Ary finally learns what Gavin told Gemma to convince her to leave Ary alone with him. He told her about their marriage, about Simeon taking her away, and about how scared he was to lose her again. Ultimately, it was enough to make Gemma feel that Ary would be safe with him, despite the fact that Gemma also believes Gavin is, quote, fucking insane. Ary is also reunited with Caz who joins them in Gemma and Finn's room along with Marin and their newborn baby boy, who Ary learns is named Ari with an I after her. So sweet. Ezra joins the reunion and he's pissed. He accuses Ary of being selfish and having been manipulated and used by Gavin before storming back out. Ary wants to tell him the truth about her relationship with Gavin, but the rest of the group disagrees, worried that the truth will get twisted and undermine her authority. Rachel: Fucking Ezra, I've said it before, I'll say it again, he's just a cock block on life and also now apparently a pain in the ass. Kate: I really don't have strong feelings about Ezra, but from his perspective, I understand being pissed about being the only one kept in the dark and feeling betrayed for so long. He was mourning Ary, someone who was his friend and his family, who he believed died this terrible death, only to learn that she was alive and well the entire time, and he's the only one of their group that didn't know. Rachel: Yeah, but he also, well, he also is the only one of their group who consistently makes bad choices, like terrible choices. And you know, he's kind of proven himself. Like every single person in that room was like, Don't tell him the truth, you know? And like it's because he he can't be trusted because he's just like rash and thinks that he's the smartest one when he has like five percent of the information. And then even when he gets all the information, still does the wrong thing with it. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. he's like I like I said, I don't really have strong feelings one way or another. I was also not really devastated by his ending, but Rachel: I'm just saying, how he could have handled this situation? Coming into the room, sure, say you're upset. I think that's totally valid to be upset. Why would you do this? You must have had a reason. establish trust in some way. But he comes in hot acting like he's been wronged and that he knows better. Kate: Yeah, fair enough. And also he fucked up again because Ezra and Caz's yelling had woken the baby up and his cries trigger another panic attack in Ary, who runs out of the room. Rachel: I did love seeing Caz jump into full big brother mode and just scream, that is enough, Ezra. Kate: Yeah. As Ary navigates her way through the caves, we get a better understanding of the space. So the hallways are wide and tall, mitigating any feelings of claustrophobia. The use of incense aims to lessen the earthy scent, but Ary notes that it still smells like dirt. There is a large market area in the atrium, along with waterfalls, colorful textiles, and other vibrant signs of life. And Ary describes the space as feeling full of community. Family, friendship, warmth, and life. Elias finds Ary in the crowd and tells her that Simeon, who he calls her father, wants to see her. He also introduces her to his close friend Lou, a beautiful teenager seemingly 16 or 17 years old, who also lost her family to the butcher and became part of his family. Rachel: So let's take some time to chat about Lou because I think there's a very good chance she could be Ary and Gavin's baby. She's described, as you said, as beautiful with waves of dark hair trailing down her back. And that sure sounds like if you combined Gavin's hair color with Ary's hair texture. And she's tall and apparently has been tall since she was 13, and she has an athletic frame. Which certainly sounds like Gavin's child. And she has brown eyes. So we've established physically that she could potentially be their child. Now, a little bit about her upbringing. Her family was killed by the butcher when she was a child, and she was raised by the Wintertons. And knowing how Simeon twists good intentions, I could absolutely see him giving Ary's future husband her child to raise as a pseudo-younger sister. And then considering how much Lou hates the butcher for killing her entire family and most of her adoptive family. That's also fits right in with Simeon's MO. But I could also see this setting up a very interesting conflict later in the series when she's revealed as the child of Ary and the Butcher. Kate: I think that's a solid theory. I mean, we'll need to be on the lookout for any hints of power coming from her though, because if she really is their child, then she'll certainly be very powerful. Rachel: for sure, yes. Unless she needs to siphon their power Kate: Or or be on the lookout Rachel: out of them. Kate: Yes. Rachel: Ha ha Kate: That's true. But we also should be on the lookout for Simeon potentially suppressing her power if that's the case as well. Rachel: Yes. Yes. Great call. Which would make Kate: So Rachel: sense of why he would want to keep her close. Like that's the other thing, because we get another character in a few chapters who is also another potential baby. And the thing for me is that I really think that it has to be somebody nearby. Because to your point, there's no way Simeon would put this kid out in the world. He literally just told Ary that he doesn't think that. Her f line should continue. Kate: Right. Yeah. He would still Rachel: knowing how much he wants to control them. Kate: need to be close, like keep somebody close enough or just be able to control their upbringing enough. Yeah. Rachel: At least to just give her some potion every once in a while in her coffee or her milk or whatever. Kate: Mm-hmm. As he takes her to Simeon, Elias asks Ary if they can talk more about what happened in the barracks. He says if he'd known who she was, she wouldn't have been attacked. But she asserts that it shouldn't have mattered who she was. He should have cared about her and respected her enough to believe her and take action regardless of who she was to him. And yes, exactly, he should respect her as her friend, her commander, her fellow human being, any of these things, regardless of her title. Rachel: And this is exactly what is wrong with our society as well. Women's issues are swept aside, our rights are stripped away, and victims of abuse aren't believed until it's someone that And then it matters. And this was someone he knew, just not his queen. Kate: Yeah. And I that pisses me off so much that people have to make it personal in order to care. you can't have Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: empathy for somebody unless it personally affects you. That like we live in a society, people. You know, you have to care about people that you don't personally know. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Kate: So Ary tells Eli that she will eventually forgive him, but she needs time. And then she opens the doors to meet Simeon. Rachel: So we have a lot to unpack on our next episode. Kate: Yes. should we count down the tropes and theories for this episode? Rachel: Yes, so for tropes, we have found family and found family reunions, magical animal bonds, a sexy little dream, I'm gonna call it angry dagger throwing. I angry displays of violence. I wasn't sure exactly how to capture that. Kate: I I feel like I would just say feminine rage for that one, but Rachel: that's fair. It was just such a specific example though, because you were totally right about the you were totally right about the example of Katniss. Kate: Right. Rachel: And that's like such a specific example, but that's fine. We'll we'll say it's feminine rage. Tattoo session or mourning tattoo section. Mourning with a U. An O and a U. Epic rescue mission and identity reveal slash power reveal. And then our theories. so Lou is Gavin and Ary's baby, and Gavin uses Nyxar's powers to send Ary happy little sexy dreams. So thank you for joining us for today's episode. Join us next week for our final episode of The Incendiary, covering chapters 53 through the end of the book. And if you haven't yet, be sure to listen to our full spoilers interview with LJ Claren, where we ask our most pressing questions from this book. Kate: And if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to drop us a comment or review. We'd love hearing your theories and reactions. Rachel: See you next week. Kate: Bye.