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Resiliency: The Secret ROI You’re Ignoring · Budget Your Business

• 0:00
  Kathy Hardy: Yes, resiliency is one of those things that I've been measuring and talking about for years and it is now, as of 2025, the most coveted leadership skill, according to Forbes.
• 0:20
  Kathy Hardy: Forward when you're faced with great change or great uncertainty or financial challenges, and this world is more volatile and uncertain and complex than ever, which impacts our ability to do business, because we can't just run our businesses the same as we always did it.
• 0:42
  Scott Geller: Hello and welcome to Budget your Business, the podcast for small business owners who want to learn how to financially plan for every aspect of their business.
• 0:51
  Scott Geller: I'm your host, scott Geller.
• 0:53
  Scott Geller: Today I have Kathy Hardy of K Hardy Consulting to talk about resiliency in a world of change, specifically from the C-suite seat.
• 1:04
  Scott Geller: Welcome, kathy.
• 1:06
  Kathy Hardy: Thank you, I'm very happy to be here, scott.
• 1:09
  Scott Geller: Great, yeah, glad to have you on here.
• 1:11
  Scott Geller: So Kathy and I met through the world of networking and I really liked how she was a transformational executive and leadership coach over about the past two decades and she really focused on guiding organizations and individuals through the complexity and change and growth.
• 1:33
  Scott Geller: So today she's a founder of Kay Hardy Consulting.
• 1:36
  Scott Geller: But, kathy, why don't you give our listeners a little more background about who you are and what?
• 1:41
  Kathy Hardy: you do Wonderful.
• 1:43
  Kathy Hardy: Thanks, scott, I'm happy to do that.
• 1:45
  Kathy Hardy: So I have been in business, corporate and small organizations for many years as an operations lead, as a CEO, as a founder, and along the way I've collected a lot of golden nuggets from things that went well and things that went poorly.
• 2:02
  Kathy Hardy: So in looking back, trying to decide what I wanted to do now, I've combined the knowledge I have as a startup CEO, as a CEO who's gone into a troubled organization and had to make drastic changes, and also a member of a large company running $280 million worth of annual revenue.
• 2:26
  Kathy Hardy: So there's gold nuggets all along the way and I have used those nuggets to start my coaching business several years ago and I'm really focused on leadership and the ability to plan in small companies.
• 2:44
  Kathy Hardy: That's where I've kind of nestled in with small organizations and I have a very solid approach to what I do with coaching leaders and have had some wonderful case studies and results and just thoroughly enjoying it.
• 2:59
  Scott Geller: Well, that aligns perfectly with what we try to do here at Budget.
• 3:02
  Scott Geller: Your Business is improve everybody's planning process.
• 3:07
  Scott Geller: So thanks for coming on and agreeing to talk with me.
• 3:10
  Scott Geller: One point that we talked about last time we were chatting and before we got on, before we started hitting record, is how the CEO is a lonely spot.
• 3:20
  Scott Geller: I have my opinions around that and why, but maybe let's start there.
• 3:25
  Scott Geller: Why do you feel that the CEO is probably one of the loneliest spots in the business?
• 3:31
  Kathy Hardy: Well, it reminds me of a phrase what got you here won't get you there.
• 3:36
  Kathy Hardy: So a CEO has certain skills and drives that allow them to rise to that level or allow them to start a company where they're the top dog, but it's not necessarily the same skills you need as you drive your team through ups and downs and budgets and forecasts.
• 3:57
  Kathy Hardy: So I think it's important for CEOs to invest in their own leadership development, because they don't have a lot of necessary feedback from their board if their board isn't that involved.
• 4:10
  Kathy Hardy: They don't have anyone being a friendly mirror and saying you know, you might want to think about, when you do this, how it's resonating with your team, and I can think of many examples of how I, as a CEO and founder, was listening to hear what I wanted to hear from my team and really missed some opportunities that they were trying to tell me that I could do better in certain areas, and that's why I think it's important to have a coach who can look at your attributes and tell you what your strengths are, but also tell you where your blind spots are.
• 4:44
  Kathy Hardy: Your attributes and tell you what your strengths are, but also tell you where your blind spots are, and I have a lot of success with lone wolf CEOs who nobody's really talked to them like that for a while and that's why I call it a friendly mirror.
• 4:54
  Kathy Hardy: Get a lot of growth out of that and a real aha moment, and it changes the teams and the profitability of their businesses.
• 5:02
  Scott Geller: I like to think of the CFO as one of those roles, as myself as a CFO of being one of the few people in the business that can be very frank and honest and upfront with them.
• 5:14
  Scott Geller: But having an outside coach is just as good, if not even a better, route of somebody in there to lay out somebody else's perspective.
• 5:31
  Kathy Hardy: Right, and the assessment I use is an attributes assessment that gives you real data of where your skill in let's say, resiliency, how you rank with the general public and leaders in if that's a strength for you or a weakness.
• 5:42
  Kathy Hardy: And then we build on that by saying here's ways to improve that, Because the assessment I use is different if you take it six months from now.
• 5:50
  Kathy Hardy: So it's not like the P&L, it's not a predictive index.
• 5:54
  Kathy Hardy: It's something that changes and moves with what you're dealing with in your work environment.
• 6:00
  Kathy Hardy: So the data has been really helpful in dealing with the C-suite CFOs, especially like data.
• 6:06
  Kathy Hardy: Yes, so it is.
• 6:09
  Kathy Hardy: You know there aren't very many people in an organization, especially a small one, who will have the guts to confront something that could improve your performance as a leader.
• 6:20
  Scott Geller: So how does it?
• 6:21
  Scott Geller: Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about this assessment tool.
• 6:24
  Scott Geller: How does it work and how do you use it?
• 6:27
  Kathy Hardy: Well, I've been using it now for 10 years.
• 6:29
  Kathy Hardy: I've probably put 8,000 people through it, and it was an assessment that was built on theories of several different assessment approaches.
• 6:40
  Kathy Hardy: It's not a skills assessment, it's an attributes assessment.
• 6:45
  Kathy Hardy: So it's measuring things like self-restraint, self-blame, alignment, resiliency.
• 6:52
  Kathy Hardy: You don't see those in your typical assessment tool that we use for leadership development.
• 6:58
  Kathy Hardy: It's based on what attributes are you leading with and what attributes are you leaving behind.
• 7:07
  Kathy Hardy: It provides me with a very well-rounded it's 150 different attributes we talk about and it's a good foundation where the leader and I can then choose.
• 7:21
  Kathy Hardy: Which of these do you want to maybe get a little higher?
• 7:22
  Kathy Hardy: Which of these do we want to maybe see if we can score a little lower on?
• 7:25
  Kathy Hardy: Because things like self-blame if you have really high self-blame, you're not going to have very good confidence.
• 7:31
  Kathy Hardy: It's going to impact your self-confidence and your decisiveness, but if you have no self-blame, then it's never your fault and guess what?
• 7:39
  Kathy Hardy: It's got to be somebody's fault.
• 7:41
  Kathy Hardy: So that means it's probably your people below you who are feeling like they're the ones who are the troublemakers or cause things to go off key.
• 7:51
  Kathy Hardy: And that's something that a recent CEO did not know that he was doing.
• 7:55
  Kathy Hardy: He had no idea that his high self-confidence gave him no self-blame.
• 8:03
  Kathy Hardy: So it was never his fault.
• 8:04
  Kathy Hardy: And then when we assessed his key leaders beneath him, guess what?
• 8:09
  Kathy Hardy: They had really low self-confidence and really high self-blame.
• 8:12
  Kathy Hardy: So he it was a.
• 8:14
  Kathy Hardy: You know, I could have had a V8 moment for him because he was asking me why doesn't, why aren't people coming to me with innovative ideas?
• 8:22
  Kathy Hardy: You know I'm approachable, my door's always open.
• 8:32
  Scott Geller: But that changed his perspective and really opened the floodgates for him to start listening to what his team was saying Interesting, and how does that kind of key us into the resiliency mindset as well then?
• 8:40
  Kathy Hardy: Yes, resiliency is one of those things that I've been measuring and talking about for years, and it is now, as of 2025, the most coveted leadership skill, according to Forbes.
• 8:53
  Kathy Hardy: And resiliency is that ability to not bounce back but bounce forward when you're faced with great change or great uncertainty or financial challenges and this you know this world is more volatile and uncertain and complex than ever, which impacts our ability to do business, because we can't just run our businesses the same as we always did it.
• 9:22
  Kathy Hardy: So, measuring resiliency, not only in a leader, but then helping them list out how they're going to, what are the things they're going to do to build it, but also in their team and their key team.
• 9:31
  Kathy Hardy: If you've got a team that seems very burned out, they probably need some help rebuilding their resiliency levels, because they're probably a little short on gas, and I think it's becoming more and more evident that that's one of those secret sauces of leaders who are successful is their resiliency.
• 9:50
  Kathy Hardy: And resiliency, when you look at it as an attribute, it has six or seven other attributes that play into it Self-alignment Are you doing what you know you do best, what you think you're doing and what people think you're doing?
• 10:07
  Kathy Hardy: Are those in alignment, or do you become Jekyll and Hyde when you're at work and not at work?
• 10:11
  Kathy Hardy: Self-assessment Do you take time to assess your own skills?
• 10:15
  Kathy Hardy: We're all running so fast and if nobody's making you sit down and do a self-performance appraisal, you could go years without ever saying, okay, where are my blind spots?
• 10:26
  Kathy Hardy: Self-restraint is important, boy.
• 10:28
  Kathy Hardy: I learned this as a CEO of a startup.
• 10:30
  Kathy Hardy: You don't get to pop off just because nobody's going to tattle on you to someone above you.
• 10:36
  Kathy Hardy: You have to control that emotion, and there's a lot of emotion out there right now.
• 10:40
  Kathy Hardy: And then we talked about the self-blame.
• 10:43
  Kathy Hardy: Don't be passing it all down.
• 10:44
  Kathy Hardy: And then emotional awareness is a big one.
• 10:47
  Kathy Hardy: If you're not aware of how your emotions are trickling out to your team, they don't feel your resiliency because you're needing to vent to them, which, although it's really tempting, you got to find a network of support people that you can vent to.
• 11:04
  Kathy Hardy: Don't be a buddy boss.
• 11:06
  Kathy Hardy: You need to be a leader boss, no matter how tempting it is.
• 11:09
  Kathy Hardy: So those are the components of resiliency, and I think it's always been important, but it hadn't been labeled as that's what it is, that thing, you know, the it factor of what's the secret sauce for good leaders and it's really coming into view with what's going on in our culture right now.
• 11:27
  Scott Geller: Yeah, and can you apply that, or does that apply differently between individuals and in the entire business?
• 11:36
  Kathy Hardy: The resiliency factor is great to have in your teams below you know that you're working with.
• 11:41
  Kathy Hardy: The most important person, though, would be the C-suite folks to have that because you model, you set the tone and you foster a growth mindset and how we're going to learn from setbacks, but it's something that I've recognized in up-and-coming leaders, in large organizations and small ones, that it's a little flag to say hey, you could develop me and I could do big things if you build on what I already have in resiliency.
• 12:14
  Kathy Hardy: We're always going to have that level of employee who is so overwhelmed by change that you're not going to start by building their resiliency.
• 12:23
  Kathy Hardy: You're going to start by you being resilient and making their job very clear to them and how it connects to the mission, always connecting back what every person on your team is doing and how that supports the overall goal of the organization.
• 12:38
  Scott Geller: We're at a point where there's a lot of different generations within businesses today.
• 12:41
  Scott Geller: I guess it's always a fact, but it seems like it's more apparent today.
• 12:44
  Scott Geller: How do you apply that across the different generations?
• 12:49
  Kathy Hardy: Yeah, I'm very lucky that I have three sons that managed to be in a different generation each one because I got busy at my career and eight years have gone by, so I have one in each of the three different generations and the difference is so obvious in the way that you approach them.
• 13:09
  Kathy Hardy: I think that the youngest generation right now is the one that has really been impacted by COVID and social media.
• 13:17
  Kathy Hardy: There was something on Spotify the other day about the Gen Z stare, the blank stare that you get from Gen Z.
• 13:26
  Kathy Hardy: Sometimes when you're asking for some customer service or something or asking for some empathy, you'll get this blank stare and they say it's a combination of social media, not having conversations in, you know, in person, but it's also kind of the I'm out to lunch because there's just too much going on for me right now.
• 13:49
  Kathy Hardy: So, really pushing through those things, if you're supervising Gen Z's, you got to make it a comfortable, safe, psychologically safe environment for you to be able to say what are you thinking right now?
• 14:02
  Kathy Hardy: You know what's on your mind, and not taking the simple answers but saying you know, help me, get you to be the best you can do.
• 14:11
  Kathy Hardy: You know your best self, how do I?
• 14:13
  Kathy Hardy: How do I appeal to your best self and make this job a challenge that you feel has value, because it has to have value, especially for the last two generations.
• 14:24
  Kathy Hardy: It's not I'm going to do it because you're the boss and I get a paycheck.
• 14:28
  Kathy Hardy: It's not about that anymore.
• 14:29
  Kathy Hardy: It's about how do I feel when I walk out of here.
• 14:32
  Kathy Hardy: What am I doing to contribute to a goal and how is my leader helping me be a better person, not just a better employee?
• 14:42
  Kathy Hardy: But how are we coaching and mentoring those folks Because they're new in their careers?
• 14:49
  Kathy Hardy: You know we forget that when we've been in our careers forever, they haven't had as many chances to fall face down in the mud as we have.
• 14:57
  Kathy Hardy: But it's.
• 14:57
  Kathy Hardy: It's just really active listening to what they're saying and then making it a safe place for them to say more and not being shocked because they might say some things that you weren't expecting.
• 15:08
  Scott Geller: Yeah, I could definitely see that.
• 15:10
  Scott Geller: I mean, I know I, I see that in my I got two boys and see that in them on occasion and they they're not even really in the workforce yet.
• 15:17
  Scott Geller: Well, one of them kind of is, but it's still that high school part-time work.
• 15:21
  Scott Geller: So how do I think about this resiliency factor in the core mission of the organization?
• 15:31
  Kathy Hardy: Well, I think first of all, your core has to be a core.
• 15:33
  Kathy Hardy: It has to be the core.
• 15:37
  Kathy Hardy: It can't be close to the core.
• 15:38
  Kathy Hardy: You have to know exactly what your objective is and be able to explain it and talk about it in a regular people way, without a lot of our business lingo in it and making that understandable at every single level.
• 16:05
  Kathy Hardy: I can remember when I was running about 160 different locations in the West for a talent acquisition company and our goals were just.
• 16:12
  Kathy Hardy: You know, the goals and strategies that you put together once a year are not something you're just going to give to your frontline employee Go okay, here's our core company, this is what we're about.
• 16:21
  Kathy Hardy: So you have to boil it down and often doing a sort of a values clarification exercise with your team where you get in a room white paper on the wall why do you do what you do?
• 16:34
  Kathy Hardy: What happens when you do it this way and what happens when you do it this way and what happens when you do it this way, and getting them to distill down.
• 16:42
  Kathy Hardy: I mean, they're going to start with a lot of different things of what they think the purpose of the company is, but you'll distill it down by seeing similarities and distill it down to just a couple sentences and when the times get tough and people are starting to lack resiliency, you bring them right back to that.
• 17:05
  Kathy Hardy: As an example for a nonprofit organization that I was running that was dealing with inner city high school grads getting them jobs, we distilled our whole placement and coaching business down to do the right thing.
• 17:22
  Kathy Hardy: So this was a commitment as opposed to a core, but it resonated the same Do the right thing, keep your promises and make a difference.
• 17:29
  Kathy Hardy: So I wanted it to be a commitment that anyone could bounce decisions.
• 17:35
  Kathy Hardy: They had to make off of that commitment sort of like you would off of a core business goal and if they could say yes to all three things, they were probably going to be okay doing it.
• 17:47
  Kathy Hardy: But they knew that commitment of those three things.
• 17:50
  Kathy Hardy: We talked about it every Friday on our team calls what did you do this week to either make a difference, keep your promises or do the right thing.
• 17:57
  Kathy Hardy: So layering it in it's not a core competencies or core belief or core goal of your business should not be an island.
• 18:05
  Kathy Hardy: It should be something that you spread through every kind of conversation you have and if you don't have the right business goal.
• 18:15
  Kathy Hardy: You're not going to be able to do that.
• 18:16
  Kathy Hardy: So then you got to go back and really dig a little deeper on what your goal is.
• 18:22
  Scott Geller: Yeah, and you touched on something I like to I like to push as well Is that is that planning is not just once a year and making that sounds like what you're saying.
• 18:32
  Scott Geller: Also, is that making this assessment or thinking about is not once a year as well.
• 18:36
  Kathy Hardy: Right, Right, right on the shelf and focus on a forecast, because nobody wants to be going 20 miles an hour.
• 18:57
  Kathy Hardy: And look at the goal they're supposed to be going 100 miles an hour, day after day after day.
• 19:02
  Kathy Hardy: It's terrible with people having no motivation, but if you're going 20, a forecast of 30 is much more inspirational Changing, being willing to change the budget you made before.
• 19:16
  Kathy Hardy: You had the information we have now about what's happening in business.
• 19:21
  Kathy Hardy: And even if you're not going to make your budget, don't put that on everybody else's shoulders.
• 19:26
  Kathy Hardy: You know you're the one who wrote the budget, probably.
• 19:30
  Kathy Hardy: So I had a CEO the other day going, but it's the budget.
• 19:32
  Kathy Hardy: How can I change it?
• 19:33
  Kathy Hardy: I'm like who wrote it?
• 19:34
  Kathy Hardy: And she's like I did.
• 19:35
  Kathy Hardy: I'm like, okay, give yourself permission to change it and go with a forecast that maybe has some stretch in there, but it's achievable.
• 19:43
  Scott Geller: Kathy, you're singing my tune there.
• 19:45
  Scott Geller: I started my career with the corporate way of you plan and budget once a year.
• 19:52
  Scott Geller: You're set to that and you do it again 12 months later and I've really come around since the last couple of years, or last several years, and work with more and more small businesses and understanding.
• 20:02
  Scott Geller: Look, the annual planning session is important.
• 20:06
  Scott Geller: However, the monthly or maybe the quarterly where you're re-forecasting things change.
• 20:14
  Scott Geller: The market changes, factors change, assumptions need to change.
• 20:17
  Scott Geller: So constantly allowing yourself to your I like what you said is, if you made it, give yourself permission and allowing yourself the flexibility to re-forecast and change it, just like the world changes.
• 20:32
  Kathy Hardy: Well, nobody wants to play on a losing team, correct?
• 20:34
  Kathy Hardy: You know so.
• 20:35
  Kathy Hardy: If every day you're behind plan and they just keep working hard and nothing changes, you're going to lose your team and that's going to cost you turnover and training dollars and it'll have an impact on your return on investment.
• 20:48
  Kathy Hardy: So it's sort of like couples who are getting divorced.
• 20:50
  Kathy Hardy: They say we can't afford to have counseling and I would say you can't afford not to.
• 20:54
  Kathy Hardy: So same thing with this.
• 20:56
  Kathy Hardy: If you are not making your budget and you're not changing it because you're so conscious of hitting that bottom line, you're not going to hit that bottom line with a team that's not motivated.
• 21:06
  Kathy Hardy: So you'll come closer to it if you switch to a forecast and let it be very transparent to them that you're changing what the goals are, because if you just change it for yourself but you don't tell them, then they're still banging against that old budget.
• 21:24
  Scott Geller: Right, correct.
• 21:25
  Scott Geller: In my seat it's usually focused around the indicators of the financial side, right, but I like where you're coming from a different direction of this as well.
• 21:36
  Scott Geller: On the resiliency side of the organization, what are some of the indicators or, I don't know, warning signals that maybe something's happening there with the resiliency of the organization?
• 21:50
  Kathy Hardy: Yeah, and once you first looked at yourself to see if you feel resilient, if you're burned out, you can be rest assured the their own time away from the work environment, not debriefing after failed projects.
• 22:20
  Kathy Hardy: You know, I think there are two types of people when it comes to failure there are blamers and there are solvers.
• 22:27
  Kathy Hardy: So don't let your team.
• 22:28
  Kathy Hardy: If your team's leaning into that blame, you've got to help.
• 22:29
  Kathy Hardy: That's an indicator.
• 22:30
  Kathy Hardy: If your team's leaning into that blame, you've got to help.
• 22:33
  Kathy Hardy: That's an indicator.
• 22:34
  Kathy Hardy: They should be on the solve it side, not the blame side, as they debrief from things that aren't working and then learn from those setbacks.
• 22:44
  Kathy Hardy: If people aren't learning from mistakes and they just keep making them over and over again, they're probably not taking the time to reflect and analyze and make it something that you do routinely with your team.
• 22:55
  Kathy Hardy: What's something that went wrong?
• 22:57
  Kathy Hardy: You know in the last quarter that if you could go back, you would have done differently.
• 23:01
  Kathy Hardy: And how would you have done it differently?
• 23:03
  Kathy Hardy: And how do you take that gold nugget and put it in the pocket for tomorrow so you don't have to relearn it again.
• 23:10
  Kathy Hardy: I like that.
• 23:10
  Scott Geller: Yeah, thank you.
• 23:11
  Scott Geller: Have to relearn it again.
• 23:15
  Scott Geller: I like that.
• 23:15
  Scott Geller: Yeah, thank you.
• 23:15
  Scott Geller: Are there different ways of thinking about this in a company that is kind of in a mode of flexibility versus maybe it's pretty constant business?
• 23:24
  Kathy Hardy: So the business is doing well.
• 23:26
  Kathy Hardy: Is that what you're saying?
• 23:28
  Kathy Hardy: Sure, yes, okay, okay.
• 23:30
  Kathy Hardy: I think resiliency is always.
• 23:32
  Kathy Hardy: If we'd been able to plan for the pandemic, we probably would have been much more ready for it.
• 23:36
  Kathy Hardy: Right?
• 23:36
  Kathy Hardy: But resiliency is always going to make you more money.
• 23:40
  Kathy Hardy: If your team is resilient.
• 23:41
  Kathy Hardy: I see it as investing in the bottom dollars, because everyone wants to be on a winning team.
• 23:50
  Kathy Hardy: So if you have high expectations and you recognize when people are doing those resiliency things prioritizing self-care, debriefing failed projects, having a growth mindset, being solvers not blamers you praise and catch people doing right, even if the business is having a great year.
• 24:09
  Kathy Hardy: Because resiliency is something that you can always tap into if you have it.
• 24:13
  Kathy Hardy: But if you don't have it when you need it, you go there and there's nothing.
• 24:17
  Kathy Hardy: So that's where, during the pandemic, young employees basically would crawl under their desk.
• 24:24
  Kathy Hardy: They couldn't handle how to still work in the pandemic, whereas folks who were a little more resilient figured out ways like I'm going to work from home, but I'm still going to be just as productive.
• 24:36
  Kathy Hardy: So resiliency is never a bad investment.
• 24:39
  Kathy Hardy: Even if you don't need it in your current year and you're kicking your budget.
• 24:42
  Kathy Hardy: That is a time for you to take that extra time you have because you're not in a panic, you're not in a crisis.
• 24:48
  Kathy Hardy: Invested in your people, invested in helping them become great solvers, and they will pay you back with more revenue and more profit.
• 24:59
  Scott Geller: And that's the goal of everything.
• 25:00
  Scott Geller: Right?
• 25:00
  Scott Geller: More revenue and more profit.
• 25:01
  Scott Geller: That's right.
• 25:02
  Scott Geller: Well, Kathy, I appreciate you joining us today.
• 25:06
  Scott Geller: And before we roll too far here, I want to wrap this up, and we asked all of our guests two questions.
• 25:15
  Scott Geller: The first one is one to three immediate takeaways that our listeners could literally put in action as they turn off this podcast.
• 25:22
  Scott Geller: You could come from this from a lot of different ways being in the CEO role, being in a coach role, speaking about resiliency.
• 25:29
  Scott Geller: But what can you share this today?
• 25:30
  Scott Geller: See, but what can you share this today?
• 25:33
  Kathy Hardy: I think across lots of different industries.
• 25:36
  Kathy Hardy: I think the impact of turnover and loss of internal knowledge is something that you should plan on how you're going to diminish that.
• 25:47
  Kathy Hardy: You should always be planning on who do we think we might lose or where are we experiencing weakness or where could we bring in someone who could raise the bar a little?
• 25:57
  Kathy Hardy: And every moment you spend in planning how you're going to retain your employees and keep this game fun is going to help you in your financials.
• 26:09
  Kathy Hardy: And the other thing if turnover was an item on your P&L, if it was a line item turnover and retraining it would get a lot of attention.
• 26:19
  Kathy Hardy: But because it's not on there, we have our facilities cost on there so we can bite our teeth into that.
• 26:26
  Kathy Hardy: But you have to think of turnover and lack of training, the results of that, as being just as important as what you're spending on electricity.
• 26:35
  Scott Geller: Yeah, you're right, and that's what you see, and what you track is what's measured right, or what you measured is what's acted upon, and that's a really good way to think about it, as your facility costs your rent or your software expense, that's on your P&L, so there's an owner for it and somebody's looking at it, whereas the resiliency isn't a line item on there, unless you put it on.
• 27:00
  Scott Geller: Right right, absolutely.
• 27:03
  Scott Geller: We also like to ask our guests about what a good podcast and or book recommendation you have.
• 27:10
  Kathy Hardy: Yeah, I was listening to this one this morning and I try to check it out at least once a week and it's Martin Moore's podcast called no Bullshit Leadership and it's about five minutes and he puts up a new one several times a week but he's just no bones about it kind of approach to podcast.
• 27:28
  Kathy Hardy: And we don't end up with you know, you need to lean into things or you need to visualize.
• 27:33
  Kathy Hardy: I mean, it's just real words with real experiences.
• 27:38
  Kathy Hardy: And then I still.
• 27:39
  Kathy Hardy: My favorite book is still High Road Leadership and that's by John Maxwell.
• 27:44
  Kathy Hardy: I keep it on my shelf and go refer to it all the time.
• 27:47
  Kathy Hardy: It just doesn't get old.
• 27:48
  Kathy Hardy: So those would be my two recommendations.
• 27:51
  Scott Geller: Great.
• 27:51
  Scott Geller: Well, those are two that I've not had mentioned before.
• 27:53
  Scott Geller: So thanks for adding that.
• 27:54
  Scott Geller: That I've not had mentioned before.
• 27:54
  Scott Geller: So thanks for adding that to our list.
• 27:56
  Scott Geller: You're welcome, and, kathy, thanks for coming and joining us today.
• 28:01
  Scott Geller: I really appreciate this.
• 28:02
  Scott Geller: I've always appreciated the value of resiliency, but it's nice having somebody put it into words and put context around Yep.
• 28:13
  Kathy Hardy: It's really important and it's out there, but it's invisible.
• 28:17
  Scott Geller: It is Well.
• 28:18
  Scott Geller: Thanks for joining me, kathy.
• 28:19
  Scott Geller: You're welcome.
• 28:20
  Scott Geller: All right, folks, that's it for today.
• 28:24
  Scott Geller: If you like this show or heard something that you thought was interesting, help us out here on Budget your Business and share the episode or the podcast with someone else that it could benefit.
• 28:34
  Scott Geller: No-transcript.