Latest / Beautifully Complex / 304: How to Support Regulation with Play, with Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP

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304: How to Support Regulation with Play, with Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP · Beautifully Complex

0:03
Speaker 1: In coal regulation, you are lending your regulated nervous system
0:09
Speaker 1: to somebody else, and it's so important to understand that
0:14
Speaker 1: these type of coal regulation bonds, they have to be predictable.
0:20
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
0:24
Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
0:29
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
0:32
Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
0:36
Speaker 2: of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started. Welcome
0:43
Speaker 2: back to Beautifully Complex. I'm so happy to have you
0:46
Speaker 2: all here, and I have here with me Paulina Schadron
0:51
Speaker 2: to talk about regulation and play, which is not a
0:57
Speaker 2: conversation that I think we've had here so far. So
1:00
Speaker 2: really excited to dive into how we can use play
1:04
Speaker 2: to help with regulation for our nerd divergent kids. Will
1:08
Speaker 2: you start, Polina by just letting everybody know who you
1:11
Speaker 2: are and what you do.
1:13
Speaker 3: Sure, so, thank you so much for having me.
1:15
Speaker 1: I'm so excited about this conversation because I play all
1:20
Speaker 1: day every day and I have a private practice.
1:26
Speaker 3: Obviously the word plays in it.
1:27
Speaker 1: It's later learned consulting and it's really about guiding children
1:34
Speaker 1: and families about the intricacies of play and regulation and
1:40
Speaker 1: how all of that leads to forming stronger executive function
1:45
Speaker 1: skill where kids are starting with certain skills and of
1:50
Speaker 1: course leading all the way into skills that they would
1:53
Speaker 1: need in adulthood. So for me, my background is in
1:58
Speaker 1: speech language pathology and I was just fortunate enough to
2:02
Speaker 1: be in a graduate school program that use play as
2:09
Speaker 1: the main methodology, and it's what we've practiced, it's how
2:13
Speaker 1: we learned to assess all areas of development. Really, we
2:20
Speaker 1: of course looked at language and comprehension and how that
2:25
Speaker 1: shows up in play dynamics, what that means for social situations,
2:32
Speaker 1: What does that mean for relationships? How do you build
2:36
Speaker 1: a relationship through play that then encourages regulation in the clinician,
2:44
Speaker 1: in the parent, in the child, because it's such a
2:48
Speaker 1: dynamic relationship that continues to.
2:52
Speaker 3: Flow and develop.
2:54
Speaker 1: And as it went deeper into my career, I realized
2:58
Speaker 1: that I really loved working with autistic and ADHD kids
3:04
Speaker 1: and I really honed in on how do you use
3:08
Speaker 1: play for neuro divergent populations? And this is how I
3:14
Speaker 1: why wound up where I am today, you know, working
3:19
Speaker 1: with kids and families and also at the same time
3:23
Speaker 1: providing professional development for other mental health professionals, teachers, educators,
3:30
Speaker 1: all on. How do you actually define regulation what play
3:37
Speaker 1: is all about? Because it has so many different levels
3:41
Speaker 1: and stages, and then where in the midst of that
3:46
Speaker 1: do pieces of executive functioning fall.
3:50
Speaker 2: It's so complex, right it is. There's so many layers,
3:53
Speaker 2: and I feel like we don't talk about play enough.
3:55
Speaker 2: We don't play enough. And when we're having a hard
3:59
Speaker 2: time with connection with our kids or we're struggling with
4:03
Speaker 2: challenging behavior, bringing a little levity into the situation is helpful, right,
4:10
Speaker 2: And so play is so important in that aspect, and
4:14
Speaker 2: of course in development in so many other areas. Can
4:17
Speaker 2: we talk though, first less of fine regulation for anybody
4:20
Speaker 2: listening who doesn't know what is regulation and dysregulation?
4:24
Speaker 1: Sure, so the way that you think about yourself as
4:29
Speaker 1: an infant, and when infants come into this world, they
4:35
Speaker 1: don't have the ability to of course regulate themselves, so
4:39
Speaker 1: they rely on a caregiver, let's say, a parent, who
4:44
Speaker 1: will co regulate them. So essentially, the way I describe
4:48
Speaker 1: it is that in co regulation you are lending your
4:53
Speaker 1: regulated nervous system to somebody else. And it's so important
4:59
Speaker 1: to understand that at these type of coregulation bonds, they
5:04
Speaker 1: have to be predictable. And you know, we could also
5:08
Speaker 1: get into what that's like for attachment, but that's a
5:10
Speaker 1: whole other conversation. So these type of interactions, again, they
5:15
Speaker 1: need to be predictable, and the parent then gets really
5:19
Speaker 1: really solid when it comes to reading the cues of
5:22
Speaker 1: the infant.
5:24
Speaker 3: When do I come in, when do I pull back
5:26
Speaker 3: a little bit?
5:27
Speaker 1: And then that ebb and flow of coregulation actually really
5:32
Speaker 1: continues throughout the course of our lives because there are
5:36
Speaker 1: moments as adults that we need coregulators too. I think
5:41
Speaker 1: that's so important to understand is that coregulation isn't something
5:45
Speaker 1: that goes away because we have moments as adults where
5:50
Speaker 1: we are actually out of capacity. And that's something that's
5:54
Speaker 1: such an important term that fits right in with regulation.
5:59
Speaker 1: When we have the resources and the capacity and we
6:02
Speaker 1: haven't been taxed all day with let's say, as an adult,
6:06
Speaker 1: like work demands calls other people vuying for our attention,
6:11
Speaker 1: and we have enough at the end of the day,
6:15
Speaker 1: then we can continue to regulate ourselves. And then there
6:19
Speaker 1: are days where we don't have enough to give. We
6:23
Speaker 1: haven't slept well, we haven't been outside, we had a
6:28
Speaker 1: really poor meals throughout the day, we feel internally we
6:34
Speaker 1: are uncomfortable or in some kind of pain and distress.
6:38
Speaker 1: All of those little tidbits impact how we can regulate
6:43
Speaker 1: at the end of the day.
6:45
Speaker 3: And then that one thing that somebody says.
6:47
Speaker 1: To us can completely throw us off because.
6:52
Speaker 3: We are taxed like we are done.
6:55
Speaker 1: And it's the same exact thing that happens for kids,
6:59
Speaker 1: because it has for all human beings.
7:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And I love talking about it in relation
7:05
Speaker 2: to capacity because I think that that's something a little
7:08
Speaker 2: bit easier for parents to understand and to think about
7:13
Speaker 2: for ourselves. And you know, if you're raising a NERD
7:16
Speaker 2: diversent child, you have had times where you have no
7:20
Speaker 2: capacity left, you are spent, and so we can kind
7:25
Speaker 2: of understand what that feels like a little bit to
7:28
Speaker 2: be able to understand our kids a little bit better.
7:31
Speaker 2: How do we incorporate play? You know, as you were
7:35
Speaker 2: talking about, we can think about the infant that the
7:38
Speaker 2: infant has no self regulation, but we have to build
7:42
Speaker 2: to self regulation. Right, we have to teach these skills
7:46
Speaker 2: and help to foster an environment where emotional regulation is
7:53
Speaker 2: not easy. I don't think it's easy for anyone. I
7:56
Speaker 2: don't think so, right, but that it's happening.
8:00
Speaker 1: It's that easy, it's doable, and that emotional regulation comes
8:05
Speaker 1: through because when it comes to play, play presents itself
8:09
Speaker 1: as having challenging circumstances. Things fall apart in play, things
8:15
Speaker 1: don't go according to plan. Even with younger kids who
8:20
Speaker 1: are attempting to figure out, like how to fit a
8:24
Speaker 1: shape into a different structure, and it's not working, they
8:29
Speaker 1: need to pause and consider whether that opening is on
8:34
Speaker 1: a different side of whatever it is that they're attempting
8:37
Speaker 1: to fit. Those beginnings of problem solving. They are regulating
8:42
Speaker 1: themselves in order to be able to solve that problem,
8:47
Speaker 1: and interestingly not what we see with neurodiverging kids is
8:51
Speaker 1: that there are more extremes in reactions because there isn't
8:58
Speaker 1: enough I'm going to go back capacity.
9:01
Speaker 3: There isn't enough capacity.
9:02
Speaker 1: To have a thought, to pause on that thought and
9:07
Speaker 1: then to act.
9:08
Speaker 3: It's just sudden.
9:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's thought action, thought, action, and every following thought
9:16
Speaker 1: just over consumes and then it consumes energy and resources
9:23
Speaker 1: and then they don't have enough to continue that regulation process.
9:29
Speaker 3: So you know what play does is that it really
9:33
Speaker 3: allows kids like freedom of expression.
9:36
Speaker 1: Really like that's creativity when you dive into anxiety and
9:43
Speaker 1: the research in anxiety, the ante to anxiety is creativity.
9:49
Speaker 1: And that's something that was that's like recently published. I
9:54
Speaker 1: could give you that information toward the end, but I
9:56
Speaker 1: think it was such an important message and of course
10:00
Speaker 1: I took it as well. This is what play provides.
10:04
Speaker 1: It provides the mind. Right, we're talking about neurodivergent kids.
10:09
Speaker 1: It provides a neurodivergent mind with so many different avenues
10:13
Speaker 1: of creativity because the play is guided by the child.
10:19
Speaker 1: And I think that's where oftentimes parents do have a
10:23
Speaker 1: hard time because they want to come in and they
10:27
Speaker 1: want to fix the play, and they want to tell
10:30
Speaker 1: the child where the play should go. Or let's say
10:34
Speaker 1: it's somebody older and we're figure out out like strategic
10:38
Speaker 1: moves of a board game, and the parent attempts to
10:42
Speaker 1: tell the child where to go. And the longer that
10:46
Speaker 1: they work with we they the parent themselves stop themselves
10:50
Speaker 1: and they go, oh wait, they go, right, they didn't
10:53
Speaker 1: ask you to fix their move.
10:56
Speaker 3: I know that you see, you know, ten steps ahead right.
11:00
Speaker 1: Now, and you know that whatever move they made isn't
11:04
Speaker 1: going to work out.
11:05
Speaker 3: Well, go The thing is they.
11:07
Speaker 1: Have to experience this type of failure and a little
11:12
Speaker 1: bit of like a dip in regulation to come out
11:15
Speaker 1: of that dip and go, oh, that didn't work out,
11:20
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean that my entire plan failed. I
11:24
Speaker 1: can hone in on part of it and remain regulated
11:29
Speaker 1: through the entire process. So my nervous system is still
11:33
Speaker 1: going to be shaken up a little bit. And then
11:37
Speaker 1: as I figure out where this problem emerged from and
11:41
Speaker 1: where do I go to solve it on my own.
11:45
Speaker 1: Once I solve it, I regain a regulated state.
11:50
Speaker 3: And even through it, I can.
11:53
Speaker 1: Talk myself through all of the challenges and the downfalls.
11:57
Speaker 3: And it sounds complex because it is.
12:00
Speaker 1: And sometimes it looks like a Magna tower fell over,
12:04
Speaker 1: and that's the complexity. You know, they can't believe it
12:07
Speaker 1: happened because they wanted it to stay up. And I've
12:11
Speaker 1: had kids run away from that type of challenge and
12:16
Speaker 1: it's yeah, you know, fight flight and complete like, just
12:21
Speaker 1: hone in on that experience and then we forget about
12:24
Speaker 1: the other two modes. Everybody talks about fight flight, and
12:29
Speaker 1: the other two are freeze and fawn. Yeah, you know,
12:31
Speaker 1: we tend to forget that, like when kids really don't
12:36
Speaker 1: know what to do and they are quite literally frozen
12:41
Speaker 1: because there's too much environmental threat. All the body wants
12:47
Speaker 1: to do is get back to a regulated state, and
12:50
Speaker 1: it's just so overwhelmed that it can't. Yeah, And those
12:54
Speaker 1: are the cues I think that are so important to
12:57
Speaker 1: read within a you know, say, within a play dynamic,
13:02
Speaker 1: because then it allows me to know when to pull back,
13:06
Speaker 1: when to offer support, and then when do I challenge
13:12
Speaker 1: Because that's the part of play that isn't talked about enough.
13:16
Speaker 3: There's a challenge component.
13:18
Speaker 1: There's the I tell parents all the time, like we're
13:21
Speaker 1: going to up the ante.
13:23
Speaker 3: And you're going to see a little bit of dysregulation.
13:26
Speaker 3: And play is supposed to be hard, it's supposed to
13:29
Speaker 3: be tough.
13:30
Speaker 1: Then you see kids start to yawn at the end
13:35
Speaker 1: at the end of sessions or.
13:37
Speaker 3: They get either tired or hungry or both.
13:40
Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, because they've been through it, right, Because they've
13:44
Speaker 2: been through it. They've been through it. And what standing
13:47
Speaker 2: out to me as you're talking is that problem solving
13:51
Speaker 2: is really interwoven with regulation, and we do, as parents
13:57
Speaker 2: so often jump in and want to so either protect
14:01
Speaker 2: our kids from discomfort and pain and failure or solve
14:05
Speaker 2: it for them, which I also think is really trying
14:09
Speaker 2: to again protect them from that discomfort. But what we
14:13
Speaker 2: do is we don't teach them how to do for
14:16
Speaker 2: themselves at all. They're not getting those problems solving skills.
14:19
Speaker 2: They're not learning independence, they're not learning self regulation. We're
14:23
Speaker 2: really robbing them of the skill building that is so
14:28
Speaker 2: very important for them to be successful in adulthood, for
14:33
Speaker 2: them to be happy in adulthood. Can you talk a
14:44
Speaker 2: little bit about how can a parent sort of incorporate
14:48
Speaker 2: this play in this purposeful way to help to teach
14:54
Speaker 2: self regulation at home.
14:57
Speaker 1: Well, it's such a great question, because all play has
15:01
Speaker 1: a purpose. I think that's one thing that we should highlight.
15:08
Speaker 1: All play is play, you know, I want to say,
15:12
Speaker 1: like all play is okay, All play works because it
15:15
Speaker 1: doesn't need to.
15:16
Speaker 3: Have a boundary. Obviously, we think about you know, physical.
15:20
Speaker 1: Safety, yes, right, and then outside of that, it's really
15:24
Speaker 1: boundary less. And when you allow play to have that
15:29
Speaker 1: type of exploration without putting parameters on it from your
15:34
Speaker 1: adult point of view, then you could really see the
15:38
Speaker 1: like internal working model for each child. So what I
15:43
Speaker 1: mean by that is there's a certain you know, like
15:45
Speaker 1: developmental age where kids are still kind of doesn't cause
15:50
Speaker 1: an effect, but then it looks more complex where it's
15:54
Speaker 1: like bad guys versus good guys, or somebody's getting killed,
15:58
Speaker 1: somebody's getting run over by a trade, somebody's getting thrown
16:01
Speaker 1: in jail, and parents are looking and they're horrified, like
16:05
Speaker 1: that it's so violent, And I'm going right, like, this
16:08
Speaker 1: is actually part of development. Where else would your child
16:13
Speaker 1: be able to test out this theory if not in
16:17
Speaker 1: their play. Yeah, So the hardest part for parents is
16:23
Speaker 1: to let go, really, right, it is to let go
16:28
Speaker 1: and take off their parents and adult hat and to
16:33
Speaker 1: think like their kid. And that's the part where parents
16:37
Speaker 1: have said is so so hard for them, especially with
16:42
Speaker 1: the kids who I work with who are or divergent.
16:46
Speaker 1: And it's a lot of work for the adult to
16:51
Speaker 1: look at something a child is doing and think about
16:54
Speaker 1: it as the five year old, think about it as
16:57
Speaker 1: the ten year old, like where's that idea coming from?
17:01
Speaker 1: And then if you don't have the answer, just go
17:05
Speaker 1: with the idea, like your child will lead you to.
17:09
Speaker 3: Where the idea is meant to go.
17:12
Speaker 1: Of course, there's a clinical part of it where I'm
17:14
Speaker 1: also looking at how complex is the idea, does it
17:18
Speaker 1: have a plan, is it organized, what other executive.
17:22
Speaker 3: Functional components are in it. I am not asking parents
17:26
Speaker 3: to do that.
17:28
Speaker 1: What I'm asking for parents is to really become that
17:31
Speaker 1: play partner, take on the character role, change your tone
17:35
Speaker 1: of voice, like literally like embody that character. And then
17:41
Speaker 1: what you're actually amazingly teaching is you're going from self
17:46
Speaker 1: regulation then to self control because kids then start switching
17:52
Speaker 1: out of their character role to become themselves to then
17:57
Speaker 1: switch back into the character role.
18:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're getting practice there, for sure.
18:03
Speaker 3: They're getting a lot of practice.
18:05
Speaker 1: It's shifting, like it's cognitive flexibility, So they're getting a
18:09
Speaker 1: lot of practice with shifting in terms of thinking like
18:15
Speaker 1: this character and then at the same time maintaining themselves
18:21
Speaker 1: and thinking like themselves.
18:24
Speaker 3: Again, it depends on the language that I.
18:27
Speaker 1: Use with kids when it comes to play, of course,
18:29
Speaker 1: depends on their comprehension and their language needs. So I
18:33
Speaker 1: could increase my language complexity, I could lower the language
18:37
Speaker 1: complexity It all depends on that place schema. What is
18:41
Speaker 1: it that they are attempting to really play out?
18:47
Speaker 3: Now?
18:47
Speaker 1: Autistic kids sometimes need to play a theme repeatedly, like
18:53
Speaker 1: a theme needs to continue over and over again, and
18:58
Speaker 1: sometimes it's looked at unfortunately as well, that's repetitive behavior, right, Like, the.
19:03
Speaker 3: Play shouldn't look like that, and I go, well, according
19:06
Speaker 3: to whom right?
19:08
Speaker 1: Right?
19:08
Speaker 3: Shouldn't play look like that?
19:10
Speaker 2: It should be whatever your kid needs, right, it.
19:13
Speaker 3: Should, Yes, it should be whatever they need.
19:16
Speaker 1: And there must be something about that play schema that
19:20
Speaker 1: they are playing out because they don't have closure for
19:23
Speaker 1: whatever that idea is. They're still the fact that they're
19:27
Speaker 1: bringing it, let's say, to therapy week after week. It's
19:30
Speaker 1: still on their mind, which is actually an amazing thing
19:34
Speaker 1: because they are carrying an idea with them for a
19:38
Speaker 1: really long period of time. Yeah, and then they're coming
19:42
Speaker 1: back and they're either like showing me that they want
19:45
Speaker 1: to play with something again or actually telling me that, like,
19:49
Speaker 1: I still have this idea in mind, I'm still thinking
19:52
Speaker 1: about it.
19:53
Speaker 3: There's something about this that isn't complete for me.
19:57
Speaker 2: I haven't worked it all the way out yet.
19:59
Speaker 1: Yes, so when we work through it, to completion. Then
20:04
Speaker 1: you'll see that they will shift to a different idea,
20:07
Speaker 1: and then sometimes the ideas cycle back, like interest, highly
20:13
Speaker 1: specialized interest. They'll cycle in and they'll cycle out, and
20:16
Speaker 1: then they'll cycle back.
20:18
Speaker 3: And it doesn't mean that skills are lost.
20:21
Speaker 1: Which parents often ask, like, well, there's regression, right, like
20:25
Speaker 1: when kids have more capacity to regulate themselves and to
20:29
Speaker 1: also maintain self control, which is something really amazing to watch,
20:35
Speaker 1: and then there are going to be days where they
20:37
Speaker 1: simply can't. It's not because they've lost the skills. It's
20:42
Speaker 1: that day or what led up to it. Something else
20:47
Speaker 1: was building internally right in the nervous system.
20:51
Speaker 3: That they couldn't figure out.
20:53
Speaker 1: So they have now fallen apart because here comes that
20:58
Speaker 1: coregulation wave again. They need more of my regulated system
21:04
Speaker 1: to let them know that, regardless of what they're going through,
21:08
Speaker 1: our relationship is not contingent on how much regulation they
21:13
Speaker 1: need or how little you know, they need from me.
21:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that's so important to point out that
21:21
Speaker 2: that relationship has to stay sort of even keeled, right.
21:26
Speaker 2: We want to keep that connection and we want to
21:30
Speaker 2: sort of keep the door open, is what I feel
21:32
Speaker 2: like we're talking about a little bit there and by
21:37
Speaker 2: showing up in a way through coregulation that says you're safe.
21:42
Speaker 2: I'm here to support if you need it. You know,
21:44
Speaker 2: there's so many messages around that for kids, and that
21:49
Speaker 2: relationship is just invaluable. It's everything. One thing that I
21:55
Speaker 2: sort of struck me as you were talking is that
21:58
Speaker 2: you're not saying that a parent needs to challenge during
22:02
Speaker 2: play and do all these things that are going to
22:05
Speaker 2: teach skills. We're just supposed to show up and play, right.
22:09
Speaker 1: Yes, And it's harder than it sounds, yeah, because yeah,
22:13
Speaker 1: the challenge for parents is to connect to their inner
22:17
Speaker 1: child because oftentimes they will start to see themselves in
22:22
Speaker 1: their kids.
22:23
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah yeah, And we want to control.
22:28
Speaker 2: You know, it's really hard for us to let go
22:30
Speaker 2: of control as a parent when we're spending time with
22:33
Speaker 2: our kid. But this is something that I've talked a
22:36
Speaker 2: lot about too, like this play time, you can't judge
22:41
Speaker 2: what they're doing or saying you can't guide. It should
22:44
Speaker 2: be totally child led, right, You can't you know, be
22:49
Speaker 2: distracted by other things, like you just need to be
22:51
Speaker 2: there and in it and at the mercy. For lack
22:55
Speaker 2: of a better term of your kid and what they
22:58
Speaker 2: want to play, right, you need to go with wherever
23:02
Speaker 2: they lead, and that's where the good stuff comes.
23:06
Speaker 1: Yes, And that uninterrupted time, like you said, is so important,
23:09
Speaker 1: distraction free. It doesn't have to be two hours that
23:13
Speaker 1: you're spending on the floor like give you know, fifteen
23:17
Speaker 1: minutes or.
23:18
Speaker 3: Whatever you think that you have.
23:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, because we started this conversation talking about parents' capacities, right,
23:25
Speaker 1: especially parents of neurodivergent kids. And when I talk to parents,
23:30
Speaker 1: I've had that mention to me. They say, you know,
23:33
Speaker 1: I hear oftentimes you talk about the child's capacity, and
23:37
Speaker 1: what about my capacity as the parent? There are some
23:41
Speaker 1: days where I don't have enough to give. So my
23:44
Speaker 1: question becomes, well, how do you take care of your
23:47
Speaker 1: own regulation needs? And what does that mean for you
23:51
Speaker 1: as the adult? And the most important thing to understand
23:55
Speaker 1: is that everybody regulates in a different way. You know,
23:58
Speaker 1: you hear people talk about yoga, right, It doesn't mean
24:03
Speaker 1: that it's for everybody. It's not a blanket statement of
24:08
Speaker 1: I think people tell me to do yoga, so I
24:10
Speaker 1: probably should. I don't find that regulating. I can't regulate
24:16
Speaker 1: myself through a yoga class. Which means I don't want
24:18
Speaker 1: to force myself into something that other people have said
24:23
Speaker 1: works for them because they have a different nervous system.
24:26
Speaker 3: Yep, and I have a different nervous system.
24:29
Speaker 1: So over the years, I've learned what I need for
24:34
Speaker 1: my own regulation needs, and that could change a little
24:39
Speaker 1: bit on a daily basis. But then that's your own
24:42
Speaker 1: toolbox for you.
24:44
Speaker 2: Mm hm. And it's one hundred percent necessary.
24:47
Speaker 1: Yes, it's so, it's so necessary, and sometimes it doesn't.
24:53
Speaker 3: You know, parents ask, well, when during the day is like.
24:56
Speaker 1: A good time for that uninterrupted play, And for me,
25:00
Speaker 1: it's when do you feel like you have the most capacity? Yeah,
25:05
Speaker 1: for some it's it's in the beginning of the day,
25:07
Speaker 1: depending on work schedules. For some it's at the end
25:12
Speaker 1: of the day. For some it's maybe when the kids.
25:14
Speaker 3: Come home from school.
25:17
Speaker 1: It really, again depends on what's going to work for
25:21
Speaker 1: your family. Yeah, what's going to work for your family dynamics,
25:25
Speaker 1: so that it's not something that's on the calendar and
25:28
Speaker 1: you say, Okay, it's four thirty and we have to
25:31
Speaker 1: play right now.
25:32
Speaker 3: That's not going to work, right, That's.
25:34
Speaker 1: Not the point, because then you're you're bringing stress into play, yep,
25:38
Speaker 1: And it's not what we want to do.
25:41
Speaker 3: We, like you said, we want it to be child led.
25:44
Speaker 3: And what child led? Sometimes parents think that, well, then
25:48
Speaker 3: it's a free for all, and it's childlied. It's a
25:51
Speaker 3: free for all. There are no boundaries.
25:53
Speaker 1: But the beautiful thing about play is that within it,
25:57
Speaker 1: when it comes to development, kids make up their own
26:01
Speaker 1: roles and set their own rules when you allow for
26:07
Speaker 1: it to happen. And sure you could encourage it a
26:11
Speaker 1: little bit by saying, well, I know that you gave
26:15
Speaker 1: me the job of this character. Can you let me
26:19
Speaker 1: know what the rules are like for this, you know,
26:24
Speaker 1: little person who I'm holding, or maybe I'm an animal,
26:28
Speaker 1: And I go, well, are there places that this animal is.
26:31
Speaker 3: Not supposed to go? Do I stay? You know, in
26:34
Speaker 3: my pod?
26:36
Speaker 1: Does this animal talk because and then here comes like
26:40
Speaker 1: that cognitive shift and I say, well, because I'm thinking
26:43
Speaker 1: that you're asking me to become the animal, I'm going
26:46
Speaker 1: to start talking like the animal. And they think that
26:49
Speaker 1: it's like the funniest thing. And then you hear this
26:53
Speaker 1: really like genuine laughter, because sometimes laughter can be a
27:00
Speaker 1: just regulating laughter, and you can tell that apart from
27:04
Speaker 1: a genuine laughter just regulating laughter is sometimes what you
27:08
Speaker 1: hear adults do when they're uncomfortable.
27:12
Speaker 3: They laugh to attempt to mask that discomfort.
27:15
Speaker 1: Kids do that too, and then there's also that full
27:19
Speaker 1: on joyful laughter because they have lost themselves in the play,
27:25
Speaker 1: and that's what they're looking for from the parent, that
27:29
Speaker 1: type of back and forth for the parent to also
27:31
Speaker 1: lose themselves and to just become the character and do
27:37
Speaker 1: something that is unexpected, and then the the problems in
27:44
Speaker 1: the play will come up on their own, because that's
27:47
Speaker 1: what play is meant to provide, because then the character
27:51
Speaker 1: breaks a few.
27:52
Speaker 3: Rules, like as a joke and then.
27:55
Speaker 1: Goes, I forgot, I forgot I should probably the character
28:00
Speaker 1: to stop breaking roles and then that's where those boundaries
28:05
Speaker 1: come in play and kids get to experience like what
28:08
Speaker 1: is it.
28:08
Speaker 3: Like setting these roles?
28:11
Speaker 1: What does it mean to set a couple of rules
28:15
Speaker 1: of what do I expect in this place scene to happen?
28:21
Speaker 1: And that way they can also test out what's working
28:25
Speaker 1: and what's not working. And again going back to what
28:28
Speaker 1: you mentioned, like they need the parents or the caregivers
28:32
Speaker 1: undivided attention.
28:34
Speaker 3: Totally, like no phones, no screens.
28:39
Speaker 1: And sometimes I just want to mention it. Sometimes it
28:41
Speaker 1: looks like physical play. Sometimes it's hide and seek. Yeah,
28:45
Speaker 1: physical place is part of development. And again it doesn't
28:49
Speaker 1: matter chronologically how old the child is. Sometimes kids go
28:53
Speaker 1: to is physical play because they don't have the complexity
28:57
Speaker 1: complexity yet for other type of play, right, So let's
29:02
Speaker 1: play be physical.
29:03
Speaker 3: Then then it's hide and seek, Then it's building forts.
29:06
Speaker 1: Then it's you know, like playing Cops and Robbers, like
29:10
Speaker 1: something that is movement based, because that is also still
29:14
Speaker 1: play and it's still engaging.
29:17
Speaker 2: M hm. And movement is regulating and.
29:20
Speaker 3: Movement yes, thank you. And movement is regulating.
29:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, So much good stuff here, and I
29:29
Speaker 2: hope that the parents and caregivers listening are going to
29:33
Speaker 2: work in some play, not schedule it like I would
29:36
Speaker 2: normally say, because we like we need to leave the
29:40
Speaker 2: expectation out of it, right. I think that's part of it,
29:42
Speaker 2: is leaving the expectation out of it, just going full
29:46
Speaker 2: in on what our kid wants to do and engaging,
29:50
Speaker 2: and that also makes them feel special and valued right
29:56
Speaker 2: when we do that, And there's there's so many skills
29:59
Speaker 2: that are being built and just the ways that you've
30:02
Speaker 2: talked about it in the last thirty minutes. Yeah, there's
30:05
Speaker 2: so many skills that we're working on also, and that
30:09
Speaker 2: is so valuable, especially when you can build skills while
30:14
Speaker 2: having fun while not you know, trying to teach, but
30:18
Speaker 2: it is teaching sort of inherently. Paulina, will you tell
30:22
Speaker 2: everybody where they can find you online so they can
30:25
Speaker 2: learn more from you and potentially work with you.
30:27
Speaker 1: Yes, of course, So I am at Play to Learn
30:31
Speaker 1: Consulting on Instagram, on Facebook, it's all the same. And
30:37
Speaker 1: you could also find me through my website to learn
30:40
Speaker 1: more about my background and my work and the reason
30:45
Speaker 1: that I do this. So the website is Plate to
30:49
Speaker 1: Learnconsulting dot com and I.
30:51
Speaker 2: Will link all of that up for everyone in the
30:54
Speaker 2: show notes, which you can find at PARENTINGADHD and autism
30:57
Speaker 2: dot com Slash three D zero four per episode three
31:02
Speaker 2: hundred and four. Thank you again so much, Polina for
31:05
Speaker 2: being here. I've really enjoyed this conversation and I know
31:08
Speaker 2: it's going to be so helpful for the families who
31:11
Speaker 2: are listening.
31:12
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. It was so great.
31:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will see everybody on the next episode. Take
31:17
Speaker 2: good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast.
31:22
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and
31:26
Speaker 2: don't forget to check out my online courses and parent
31:29
Speaker 2: coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The
31:33
Speaker 2: Behavior Revolution dot com