Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 435: Building Films from Scratch_Mastering Microbudget Movie-Making with Evan Kidd

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BPS 435: Building Films from Scratch_Mastering Microbudget Movie-Making with Evan Kidd · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four thirty five.
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  Speaker 1: Your dream doesn't have an expiration date, Take a deep
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: breath and try again. KT Whitten broadcasting from a dark,
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  Speaker 1: windowless room in Hollywood.
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  Speaker 2: When we really should be working on that next draft.
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  Speaker 2: It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
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  Speaker 2: business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
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  Speaker 2: screenplay bulletproof.
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  Speaker 1: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
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  Speaker 1: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
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  Speaker 3: I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
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  Speaker 1: Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
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  Speaker 4: Now.
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  Speaker 1: Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
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  Speaker 1: on the kind of project you are in the goals
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  Speaker 1: of the project you are, so we actually break it
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  Speaker 1: to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host
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  Speaker 1: Dave Bullets.
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  Speaker 3: Our next guest. We talk a lot about team building
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  Speaker 3: and how do you find those reliable people, how do
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  Speaker 3: you find people that you know you can collaborate with,
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  Speaker 3: you know, And we also talk a lot about resource
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  Speaker 3: based film making, you know, aka the Rodriguez List, because
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  Speaker 3: you shouldn't make no if you're going to make a film.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not talking about a student film. If you're going
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  Speaker 3: to make a film nowadays, and you know you don't
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  Speaker 3: have a bunch of money in the bank, you know,
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  Speaker 3: you're not gonna be able to find some VC who's
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  Speaker 3: just gonna, you know, money, drop a million dollars in
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  Speaker 3: your bank account. What you should do is, you know,
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  Speaker 3: use what resources you have to make a film. Don't
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  Speaker 3: make a colossal space movie or some action movie like
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  Speaker 3: a Lah John Wu, it's just gonna end up blowing
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  Speaker 3: up in your face. And I and take it from
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  Speaker 3: personal experience, it has blown up in my face before
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  Speaker 3: when I've tried to just shoot for the moon and
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  Speaker 3: you end up with a with a half done movie
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  Speaker 3: that the effects don't look good enough. You know, a
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  Speaker 3: movie that comes to mind is Primer. If you've ever
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  Speaker 3: seen Primer, you know, it's a it's a whole movie
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  Speaker 3: about time travel and the guy shot at Shane Kruz
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  Speaker 3: shot it for like seven thousand dollars, and it's it's
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  Speaker 3: very well done. It's a very cerebral movie. But it
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  Speaker 3: just shows what you can do with the right resources
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  Speaker 3: and the right script. But speak of the right resources
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  Speaker 3: and the right script. You know, my next guest, we're
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  Speaker 3: gonna be talking about just that. We're gonna be talking
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  Speaker 3: about all of this stuff. And it is a phenomenal
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  Speaker 3: phenomenal for conversation with guests. Evan Kid, Hey, Evan, thanks
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  Speaker 3: off coming on the show.
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  Speaker 4: Hey, thanks for having me Man, Hey.
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  Speaker 3: My pleasure. Evan. You know, it's a question I always
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  Speaker 3: ask everybody. It's a question I I just always begin
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  Speaker 3: every interview with and that question is Evan, what got
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  Speaker 3: you started in the film industry.
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  Speaker 4: I think just a love of the craft of cinema.
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  Speaker 4: You know, It's it's that simple for me, as you know,
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  Speaker 4: the other filmmakers have said this before, but you know,
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  Speaker 4: I'm really no different. Like I grew up around it.
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  Speaker 4: We watched a lot of movies in my house growing up,
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  Speaker 4: and it was kind of the default. If something wasn't
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  Speaker 4: going on, you know, parents would put on a movie,
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  Speaker 4: we'd watch it, and I just kind of grew up
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  Speaker 4: in that culture. You know. I ended up stealing my
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  Speaker 4: dad's VHS camera a lot of times when I was
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  Speaker 4: like three and four years old, and I would you
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  Speaker 4: know shoot stuff around the house and the pets and
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  Speaker 4: you know, stuff around the neighborhood. So it kind of
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  Speaker 4: just grew really naturally. And then when I went, you
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  Speaker 4: know into high school, there was like this little uh,
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  Speaker 4: you know, film in the morning announcements class, which was
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  Speaker 4: really cut and dry, but gave you access to you know,
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  Speaker 4: tripods and editing software and stuff like that. So I
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  Speaker 4: would kind of use that after hours and do what
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  Speaker 4: I wanted, and I thought that was cool. And then
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  Speaker 4: that was around the time YouTube is really taking off.
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  Speaker 4: And so you know, I think all those things kind
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  Speaker 4: of gelled together to propel me into you know, pursuing
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  Speaker 4: it once I got to college and kind of from
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  Speaker 4: there it's been history. So it's you know, been pretty natural.
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  Speaker 4: But I think it's also been a direct correlation to how,
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  Speaker 4: you know, over the years, technology has really allowed more
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  Speaker 4: people into the film business. You know, I've never had
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  Speaker 4: a huge inkling to just go and direct you know,
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  Speaker 4: Avengers five or whatever. For me, it's always just been
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  Speaker 4: about telling a compelling story with you know, resources around me,
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  Speaker 4: whether that be you know, cast and crew or just
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  Speaker 4: you know the technology that you know, so many of
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  Speaker 4: us have access to.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, very true. And you know I remember
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  Speaker 3: those big VHS cameras.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: See see you and I are kind of sort of
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  Speaker 3: around the same age, I I mean, but you know,
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  Speaker 3: and sometimes some of my guests are a little bit
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  Speaker 3: older than I am, so you know, they didn't have that,
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  Speaker 3: They had this like the Super Ring. Hey, that's what
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  Speaker 3: they remember when they were a kid, you know. And
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  Speaker 3: and guys like us, we had the you know those
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  Speaker 3: big old it looks like a big boom box you
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  Speaker 3: put on your shoulder. You couldn't use it for more
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  Speaker 3: than five minutes or you know, you'd kill your back
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  Speaker 3: and your neck, and you know, it looked like a
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  Speaker 3: bazooka and uh, you know, and then now they went
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  Speaker 3: to many DV but yeah, you know, I remember when
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  Speaker 3: YouTube first was taking off in like two thousand and four,
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  Speaker 3: two thousand and five. Yeah, and I remember just being
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  Speaker 3: blown away. And I remember, you know, people were just
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  Speaker 3: putting up different stuff and it was still on the
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  Speaker 3: you know, nobody really talked about it until a few
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  Speaker 3: years later, and then all of a sudden, it was
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  Speaker 3: like this freaking juggernaut exactly.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I remember when it first, you know, launched off.
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  Speaker 4: I was like, we can put online video on the Internet.
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  Speaker 4: And you know, at that time, my parents believe it
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  Speaker 4: not still a dial up, so that concept was in
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  Speaker 4: like two thousand and four, super foreign to me. Uh
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  Speaker 4: And so you know, I would only watch YouTube literally
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  Speaker 4: at school, and we weren't even supposed to do that.
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  Speaker 4: So you know, for me, it was like technology was
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  Speaker 4: just slowly emerging out of the shell. And then, you know,
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  Speaker 4: give it a few months, you know, most everyone including
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  Speaker 4: my family, got you know, DSL and faster internet, and
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  Speaker 4: everything kind of started catching up to what you could do.
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  Speaker 4: And for me that was extremely exciting. And I remember
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  Speaker 4: thinking I could just make a movie and put it
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  Speaker 4: on YouTube, like, holy shit, that's crazy, like and you know,
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  Speaker 4: for me that didn't even seem within the realm of possibility.
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  Speaker 4: But you know, like I was saying, given a little
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  Speaker 4: bit of technology, I think that's half the reason I'm
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  Speaker 4: able to do what I do and so many others.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally agree. And you know, I actually want to
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  Speaker 3: get into that too, about you know, making your film
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  Speaker 3: Son of Clowns and you know, working with all the
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  Speaker 3: resources you have around you. But I wanted to ask
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  Speaker 3: really quickly, did you go to a film school?
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  Speaker 4: I did. Yeah, I went to East Carolina University a
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  Speaker 4: couple of years ago. I graduated from that in Greenville,
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  Speaker 4: North Carolina. And it was a great program. I really
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  Speaker 4: enjoyed it definitely taught me a lot. I think it
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  Speaker 4: was a lot more of a technical program in terms
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  Speaker 4: of how to operate a camera, cut your own stuff
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  Speaker 4: like that than it was, you know, truly trying to
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  Speaker 4: craft you know, screenplays. That there was screenwriting classes, but
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  Speaker 4: I kind of think it geared more to that. So
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  Speaker 4: I did a lot of learning on my own in
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  Speaker 4: terms of you know, the story structure and all that. Like,
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  Speaker 4: it was definitely there, but I think if you really
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  Speaker 4: really wanted to get the full you know, breadth of it,
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  Speaker 4: I would talk to my professors and they'd be like,
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  Speaker 4: you know, here's this resource. You got to look at
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  Speaker 4: it on your own hours just because it wasn't built
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  Speaker 4: into every part of the curriculum, but I would definitely
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  Speaker 4: recommend it. It was a great program and really cut my
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  Speaker 4: teeth there for sure. You know, met a lot of
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  Speaker 4: the people who would end up helping me make Son
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  Speaker 4: of Clowns and other films like that. But yeah, I
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  Speaker 4: definitely think that is you know important, and you know,
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  Speaker 4: at the very least, it gave me the know how
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  Speaker 4: because I also do a lot of documentary work and
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  Speaker 4: so a lot of designs in those situations, I don't
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  Speaker 4: have as big of a crew as I would, you know,
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  Speaker 4: on my narrative stuff, and like you know, shooting something
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  Speaker 4: last last month and I was literally the only crew member,
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  Speaker 4: and it was kind of by design, Like if I
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  Speaker 4: really dug around, I could have you know, probably got
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  Speaker 4: a camera operator or sound designer stuff like that, but
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  Speaker 4: it was just such a you know, sporadic opportunity. I
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  Speaker 4: didn't have time, and so in those occasions, I'm really
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  Speaker 4: glad I went to film school because otherwise I don't
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  Speaker 4: know if I'd know how to operate a camera, run sound,
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  Speaker 4: you know, kind of do all those technical things.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, that's a question I usually ask.
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  Speaker 3: You know, certain people have come on and they said, Dave,
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  Speaker 3: film school is a waste of time. Some people have
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  Speaker 3: come on and said, hey, film school was phenomenal to me,
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  Speaker 3: and you know, and it's it's something I always go
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  Speaker 3: back to because you know, our experience is your perception
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  Speaker 3: equals reality, and you know, if your perception of if
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: something is you know, skewed or something is perception, if
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: something is hey listen, my experience was terrible, you know,
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: and my perception of it is it was totally worthless,
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  Speaker 3: you know it.
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  Speaker 1: You know, So I just ask.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: People to be honest, you know what I mean, and
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: if and and I always like hearing people's different experiences.
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  Speaker 3: I know, my listeners like hearing different people's experiences about
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: this stuff because I think it's that's critical, you know
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: what I mean. And it's sort of something you've touched
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  Speaker 3: on with what you just said is also something critical,
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: and that is building a team. And I always ask people,
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: you know, how did you build your team? You know,
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  Speaker 3: where does your where did you guys meet? Uh, you know,
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  Speaker 3: and and you met your whole team through film school?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, most of them. I did meet a lot of them,
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  Speaker 4: a couple of folks after the fact, but you know,
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  Speaker 4: I think it was that network that really makes film
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  Speaker 4: school and valuable. You know, I've heard a lot of
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  Speaker 4: people say you don't need film school. I've heard a
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  Speaker 4: lot of people say, oh, yeah, you got to do it,
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  Speaker 4: or else you're screwed. I kind of fall in the
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  Speaker 4: middle of the road thinking, you know, obviously I'm a
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  Speaker 4: product of a film school and I went to one.
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  Speaker 4: But at the same time, it was a film school
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  Speaker 4: that I think, really, you know, it kind of forced
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  Speaker 4: me to do a lot of outside learning outside of
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  Speaker 4: the program, So I think it kind of good, got
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  Speaker 4: a good breadth of you know, a lot of different options,
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  Speaker 4: you know, Like I said, I there's this story I
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: always tell I made this documentary called spaz Out a
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  Speaker 4: couple of years ago, and the project was, you know,
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  Speaker 4: out of this documentary class I was taking an undergrad
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: and basically you had to make this ten minute documentary
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: over the course of about two months, and it was
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: the story, you know I was telling was about this
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: underground punk groy music scene and there was you know,
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: doing shows out of this warehouse. It was super legal,
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: but there was a lot of you know, heart in
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: the you know, people trying to make music happen.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
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  Speaker 4: And to me, it felt like a bigger story. So I,
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  Speaker 4: you know, wanted to make something longer. And we're talking
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: to my professor and he was like, why do you
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: want to make it a bigger story? And I was like,
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  Speaker 4: just because I feel like that's the best way to
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  Speaker 4: tell it. And he was like, if that's the reason,
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  Speaker 4: then go for it. And you know, I think that
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  Speaker 4: has stayed with me because a lot of times I
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  Speaker 4: want to make projects that maybe aren't originally thought of
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  Speaker 4: or aren't originally you know in the you know, quote
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  Speaker 4: unquote guidelines of something. And I think film school is
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  Speaker 4: a you know, great launching pad. So you know, I
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: guess I got a little off track, but I would say,
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: you know, coming back around, you know, I think it
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: really depends for each person. Like if you are going
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: to go into extreme debt and you know, you know,
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: it might kind of mess up your trajectory for the
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: next couple of years. And you're pretty self taught, you
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: watch YouTube videos and stuff like that, you may not
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  Speaker 4: need that kind of technical guidance. But you know, again,
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  Speaker 4: and if you want the resources and the crew base
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  Speaker 4: and the you know, internships and stuff like that, you're
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  Speaker 4: not going to get that through YouTube tutorials. So I
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  Speaker 4: think it really is kind of something each person needs
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: to weigh individually.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's very true. A friend of mine, you know,
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  Speaker 3: he went to UH I think he went to n
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: YU and you know, Morton Scrissese comes in to talk
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  Speaker 3: to a class like once a semester or whatever, and
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: you know, when he walked in, he was like, holy shit,
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: Mortin Scissegy just walked in the right and and was like, Hey,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: everybody want to talk about film And it's like, who's
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: gonna Who's gonna say no? First off? And you know
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: what I mean, but it's uh, but it's that, you know,
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  Speaker 3: that's the benefit he got from going to n YU
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: or you know, and if you go to USC I
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: think Steven Spielberg comes in like once a semester as well.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean that's invaluable. I mean, if you're
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: able to get that, how do you pass it up?
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  Speaker 4: Like you said?
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and but you know it's you know that. That's
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: what we want to talk about too, is you're building
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  Speaker 3: your team, you know, and using those resources around you
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  Speaker 3: to actually make your film. And I want to ask
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: you about building your team. So you know, Evan, when
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: you were building your team, I don't maybe it did,
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  Speaker 3: maybe you didn't, But I don't know if anybody really
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  Speaker 3: goes out with that mindset of, Hey, you know what
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go today, look for a team that
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: I could put together. I think it sort of happens naturally.
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  Speaker 3: It happens organically, and eventually, you know, something clicks in
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  Speaker 3: your mind where you go, hey, I could work with
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: this person as a producer, you know what I mean?
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: And I think you know, that's how people sort of
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: build teams, as I found doing this podcast and even
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  Speaker 3: my own experiences in making stuff. So you know, what
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: are some of the qualities Evan, that you find with
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: your team that that when you were sort of putting
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: them together, when when you you know, May May May
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: put that team together to make a Son of Clowns.
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  Speaker 4: Your team is your backbone, and you are pretty much
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: as made as your team is made, I guess I
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  Speaker 4: would say. And so you know, it's like a sports team.
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: You're the coach, but you want to pick your players.
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: And when you're making something like the way we made
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: my feature film Son of Clowns, for example, you know,
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  Speaker 4: that was the biggest crew I've ever you know, had
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  Speaker 4: the opportunity to work with up to this point. And
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: you know, certain days were better than others. You know,
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  Speaker 4: certain days we'd have very small crew, like six seven people.
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  Speaker 4: Other days we'd have a bigger crew, a lot of pas,
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  Speaker 4: you know, probably fifteen twenty. And so most everyone in
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  Speaker 4: that crew worked for free. No one made money. And
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  Speaker 4: that's the thing that's tricky, because when you're in micro
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  Speaker 4: budget cinema, like, no one cares. Before I made the film,
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  Speaker 4: no one cared if I made Some of Clowns. I
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  Speaker 4: was the only person that cared, you know, the actors
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  Speaker 4: and the crew, but no one else cares. And that's
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: the kind of rough truth that you need to get around,
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  Speaker 4: is that you know, when you're making your micro budget,
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  Speaker 4: no one cares. And once you kind of accept that
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  Speaker 4: and once you say, okay, people will care once we
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  Speaker 4: make it. But like, up until this point, you don't
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  Speaker 4: have investors. You're really bankrolling on your own credit card,
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: which is what I did. Basically, my mentality was fine
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: people who want to a work because at that time
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: the North Carolina film incentives just crashed because of some
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: stupid politics and so a lot of people were out
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  Speaker 4: of jobs and a lot of people we're kind of
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: sitting around anyway. So I was like, well, instead of
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: sitting around, let's all do something. You know. I took
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: a hit from that, and a lot of other people
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: did because by day I do a lot of crew work,
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: you know, ac stuff like that, and so you know,
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: for me, it was kind of a situation where let's
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: make the best out of, you know, something that sucks.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: And then you know, I would say on the second thing,
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: when you find crew that are passionate, grab those people
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: because those are the people you want with you on
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: the battlefield, so to speak. Those people will you know,
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: stay the extra hour, Those people won't mind if you
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: do lunch an hour or two late. You know, those
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: people really just want to get your story. And uh,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: I'm a big believer in you know, quote unquote working
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: for free. Yeah, no one got paid. I definitely didn't
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: get paid. I went to the Red but you know,
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: it was my movie, so I totally understand that. But
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: every other aspect of this production, I said, let me
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: not make it so it costs people money. Okay, So
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: let me fill up the gas tanks, let me get
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: all their meals covered, you know, let me give them
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: something great for their real Let me actually publicize this film,
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: because I think the thing that happens and why a
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: lot of people are hesitant to do free work is
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: because they've been burned in the past. And I've had
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: it happen to me when you you know, work on
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: something for free. I think a lot of times there's
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: this kind of you know, hesitant notion, which I totally understand.
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: Like I do a lot of crew work for a living.
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: That's how I make a lot of my money. And
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: for me, like, I will work on a free project,
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: but I have to know where it's going. Will it
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: be sent out to festivals? Because the last thing anyone
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: wants is to work on a film and just have
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: it get thrown up on YouTube, get about one hundred
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: videos and then no one cares. You know, people want
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: to know they're part of a project that's going to
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: at least try to go somewhere. Like everyone knows it's
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: not guaranteed, but at the very end of the day,
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: there has to be some effort being made. So I
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: tried to be as transparent about that possible with like,
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: you know, the whole cast and crew. You know, I
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: sent them emails for months and months after the fact.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: You know, we got into this film festival. We're going
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: to submit here, you know, stuff like that, you know,
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: give everyone their footage promptly so they can put it
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: on a reel that you know, that kind of thing.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: Just just be a decent person. You know, if you
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: can't pay people, try to, you know, make all the
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: rest of the filmmakers who don't have a lot of
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: money look good.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know that That's something I agree with too,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: is I think people have been burned in the past
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: by free work and it's sort of you know, maybe
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: they've worked for free for you know, a person and
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: it's never been reciprocating, so they kind of say, you know,
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: I I you know, now I'm in the hole now,
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: so to speak. And you know, I got into a
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: friend of mine and actually teaches you know, film at
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: a high school, and he and I had gotten this
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: whole thing before because we were talking about free work
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: and you know, some people say do it, some people
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: say don't do it, and basically we all The thing
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: that we have a problem with was when I was
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: making my student front films, I said, you know, I
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: need some help, and some people offer to work for free. Well,
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: they would come on and then they would sort of
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: act like they don't need to be professional or act
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: like they need to actually do their job the right way,
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: because hey, you're not paying me anything, so what the
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: hell's the difference.
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that's the reason a lot of
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: these people have bad experiences is because there's a lack
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: of professionality on some free sets. I'm not going to
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: say all, but you know, the way I coordinated my set,
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: I would say, and a lot of people told me
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: it ran very professionally, and a lot of people said
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: they were shocked. You know, both you know day players
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: who just had you know, one scene they were just
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: coming and out, and you know people who are there
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: for the long haul too. A lot of people said that,
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: and you know, I guess I could take it as
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: a compliment, But for me, I want that to be
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: the bar, like I don't want I don't want that
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: to be the exception to the rule. You know.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the other thing to you always make
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: sure your set's running good. But again that's having that
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: team right, you know, making sure you have a producer
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: who you know and if that person's going to be
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: the producer. You know, do you have a UPM you know,
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: do you know, have a location manager, Do you have
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: you know, a solid first a D you know, do
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: you have a solid cinematographer? Usually what you know, when
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: what I've come across is when someone's going to make
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: a project and they have people work for free, usually
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: there's one sexy selling point. And what I mean by
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: that is usually they have some amazing location they can use,
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: or you know, some kind of you know, you know.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: For instance, I had a friend of mine make a
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: film and he ended up having a world class cinematographer
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: on there, and that was a selling point, going, look,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: you know, the film's gonna look good, and you know,
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: because we have this cinematographer, and people were actually more
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: interested in enjoying the project because they said, hey, if
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: this prop person is a part of it, you know
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: what I mean, then it's gonna be good.
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: Definitely, I would say, you know, for us, maybe it's
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: kind of half a miracle that we pulled it off.
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: You know, I never had an ad for any of
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: these days, so I mean it was I lost my
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: voice so much just because I was doing double duty,
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: you know, with the directing, and especially there's a scene
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: in here where we had like forty extras and majority
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: of them were you know, kids under the age of eight.
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: So you know, like I said, trying to get that
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: many people at it was a party scene, so there
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: was you know, noise and a whole bunch of stuff
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: coordinated is very difficult. But I'm a firm believer if
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: you know, you put something to mind, it truly can happen.
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: As corny as it sounds, would I do it that way?
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: Gainified a choice? No, But you know, I think a
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: lot of times in micro budget cinema, you just got
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: to treat it like it's almost its own separate thing
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: from normal filmmaking, because you know it well, I say,
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: that not as a slight to it, but you know,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: when you get put in these situations like, for example,
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: another thing that happened during filming, our sound guy got
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: sick on the third day and you know, thanks to
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: going to ECU and you had to run a boom.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: None of our pas had touched it. And I was like, okay,
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: it was our shortest day. I'm gonna have to run
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: this boom. And I was not excited about it. But
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: it was like everyone came out, we had this restaurant
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: cleared out, and it was the only day we were
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: going to be able to get in this restaurant, and
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: if we didn't shoot, we're going to lose the location,
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: and you know, we waste a whole bunch of people's
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: time and blah blah blah. So I mean it's really
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: just rolling with the punches, and you know, we called
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: it off. I made it work.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: What again, would I choose to do that?
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: No?
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: But I think when you do work in micro budget,
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: you just kind of have to be flexible. And you know, definitely,
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: if anyone has ego, I mean, check that shit. At
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: the door because that does not even fly. Like you know,
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: had I been on a normal set, there would be
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: no way in hell I would touch a boom pole.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: But in a situation like that where you're making your movie,
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: you know, for me, this was like one of the
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: most personal stories I've ever told, you know, in a
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: lot of ways, and so you know, for me, I
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: just wanted to get the thing made, and so I knew, okay,
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: I got to buy a bullet do this, and I
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: just kind of roll the punches.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, ego is something that is very dangerous. And you know,
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: I've I've been a part of some projects, man, where
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: some people's egos were so unbelievable. And you know, I'm
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: usually sort of the bad cop, like I'll be the guy,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: and I don't mean, I don't you know, just you know,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: you don't fight fire with fire right away. I just
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: sort of get to take him aside and say, hey, guy,
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe we should just tone this down. I
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: think some people, you know, and you know, I mean
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: I've met some people who were just I don't know
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: where they get their ego from. It's it's almost like
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: somebody when they were younger told them that they were
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: so special and so talented, and they can everybody else
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: can just go fuck themselves and then you and then
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: they come to these film sets and it's like, hey,
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: I'm here, let me you know, real quick, little funny story.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: I went to a friend of mine's film set and
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: it was about that it was a horror movie, was
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: a slasher film, and there was this PA it was
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: walking around who thought that he was God's gift to
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: film and thought he was so de rel you know,
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: thought he was so misused by being a PA. And
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: I said, hey, you know, you know, what's this guy's deal.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: I went to shake his hand, He's kind of looked
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: at me, and I was like, what the fuck? And
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: and later on somebody said, oh, yeah, he doesn't want
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: to be a PA, and the director knows he's got
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: an ego problem and just made him a PA, sort
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: of like a punished type deal. And yeah, I mean
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: it was just I said, why doing this fire the guy?
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Why do you even have you know, I'd rather have
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: nobody and just put you know, tape on the floor
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: and say hey, come in here, this way, this ways,
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: the craft, this ways, the set, well, this way's the
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: group of Yeah, so it's like, well, you know, the
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: ego just it just I mean, I I you know,
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: I've encounted that before and it really, it really is
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: so toxic because it starts to spread other people too. Yeah.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: I mean when I got out of film school, I
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: worked on Shark Tank for a little bit, and you know,
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: I was a camera pa and I kind of worked
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: my waff a little bit of Matt World. You know,
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: it's not really a world. I love hanging out in
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: a lot reality, but I've done a lot of it,
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: and you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with it,
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: but I do see actually, believe it or not, a
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: lot of ego in reality TV. And this is on
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: the crew side, not in all shows. And actually Shark
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: Tank is not my example. They were actually very lovely.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: But I worked on some other shows after that, and
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: you know, I saw a lot of these like reality directors. Man,
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: they like thought they were God's gift. And I'm just like, man,
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: you're you're directing like a fake fight between people on
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: like a TLC show, like what like you know, and
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, but I mean,
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: you know you're gonna get what you kind of deserve
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: gossip wise, I guess by your crew if you're acting,
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: you know, just like an idiot and like, you know,
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: telling people, oh, you don't know who I am. I
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: did this pilot of this. I'm just like, well, I
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: mean half this stuff I've not even heard of. And
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: that's kind of my problem. It's like, I don't like
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: pretentiousness on any level. But if you're gonna, like, you know,
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: if in this and I'm sure he's a wonderful guy,
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: but you know, if Scorsese was a little pretentious to me,
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: I guess I could take it because he's Scorsese. But
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: you know, it's like if some of these other people
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: do it, you know, I kind of, you know, have
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: a little question mark over my head and I kind
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: of look at that a little weird. So you know,
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: for me, I just try to not be pretentious and
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: not not you know, act like an idiot, you know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: treat people with respect. You know, I've been there. I've
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: been the PA. I know kind of how much you
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: know it sucks and how a lot of times people
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: take advantage of you. So you know, with this film,
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: I tried to tell my PA's you know, I don't
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: want you to just grab coffee, like I want you
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: to tell me what you want to do and will
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: put you near that department or if you have questions,
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: you know, between takes, feel free, like you can talk
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: to me, like I don't want to ever appear or
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: seem unapproachable. So that that's kind of my mindset.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the you know, I we can understand Scorsese's pretentious.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: You know, I had one time I was on a
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: film set and one of the guys said was arguing
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: with another guy, and he says, do you know who
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: I am? I won the South Blah blah blah film Festival.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: No one's ever heard of this fucking film festival. And
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: the fact that he won it with some movie called
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: I think it was called a dirt Bag or sleeves
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Bag or something, and and he screened at one time
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: and I was like, this movie won a film festival.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: I said, what was the two entries? And but like
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: when he said that, everyone just kind of laughed, and
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: it's just like, you know, there's there's two options. Either
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: you're just ignore that guy or people start to fuck
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: with them, you know what I.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: Mean, Like, well, well, my dad always had a saying
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: when I was a kid when I you know, act
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: it out or whatever, you know us to be like.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: You know, if if I could roll the tape back
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: on that and show you, you'd really see how much
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: of an idiot you were. And I, you know, I
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: apply that to anyone else I meet, because I think
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: a lot of times, in the heat of the moment,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: people say stupid stuff. But you know, if we were
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: to roll the tape back, so to speak, on everyone,
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of people would admit, Wow, I'm
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: coming across like a douchebag.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I I That's why it is so important about
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: building that team to just make sure you know, all
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: those egos are toxic people or people who are going
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: to try to, you know, take over the project. You know.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: I had one time some people message me and I
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: wasn't even part of the project, and they were working
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: with a friend of mine and they said, Dave, can
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: you go talk to him because he's listening to this
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: one guy who started off as nothing. He was just
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: like a consultant, and now all of a sudden, he's
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: a producer and he's going and telling us how he's
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: trying to micromanage everybody. And they said, you know this
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: was this started off as a fun little project and
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: now this guy's like ruining every everything. Can you can
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: you talk to him? Uh to my friend who was
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: in charge, and I said, I I don't think I
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: can go down that path because he like because you
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: know what I mean, because he likes that guy so much.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: It's like you got to pick and choose your battles
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: and what the well.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, and going back to what you said about the team,
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's the most important aspect, you know, both
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: in life and in filmmaking, is just surround yourself with
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: good people.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: Yes, very true. Cat all those negative people, those hateful, passive,
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: aggressive people, and uh, you know I just read an
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: article on Twitter the other day about how that how
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: like this snarky attitude that some people have, Like oh yeah,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: that's real fucking cool. You know that attitude you have
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: to get you know that that's even toxic to yourself,
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean? And and and so what
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: happens is if you have those people on set, we're like,
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: oh great, we're doing another film. Get those people out.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: I don't care what they've done in the past, how
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: talented they are, just ask them very politely to leave
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: and just try to, you know, say hey, listen, we thanks,
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: but no thanks.
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, isn't that the worst kind of person,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: you know, someone who complains about the environment in which
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: they're very part of. You know, it's like, if you're
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: so wonderful, why are you here? You know. It's like
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: I always find that, you know, kind of gross, and
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: you know, anytime I see that, I just kind of
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: have to roll my eyes a little bit. I mean,
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: there's definitely a culture, you know, with certain people who think,
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: you know, they're better than this, or they don't have
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: to do this, or you know. But you know, at
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: the end of the day, it's like, if you feel
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: that way, why did you show up in the first place. Yeah.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really odd, and I think it is an
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: ego thing, you know. They just want to make themselves
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: feel heard and seen. Like, you know what I was
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: gonna I could have been in my apartment today, but
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: instead I'm going to be out here on this film
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: set telling you how great I am. Yeah I can't.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: It's like, you know, I could be in my underpants
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: watching Netflix, but I decided to grace you with my presence.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: So it's like oh, thank you.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's one of the reasons why I
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: refuse to watch cinema sins and trailer whatever that's called
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: the truth of the trailer or oh honest trailers, that's it.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: And you know those two things because it's just like
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: the snarky, nitpicking type of deal and some and you know,
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: you could tell that both the people who run them,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: I guarantee you want to be filmmakers, and they just
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: are too frustrated or can't do it, so they just
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: have to make this thing where they insult other people's work.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, I don't know personally for them, but
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: I mean I know there are people that way, definitely,
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: And you know, I think it's unfortunate because again not
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: to you know, PROD the fire or whatever. But you know,
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: nowadays it's easier than ever to be a filmmaker. So
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: it's like, if you're still ragging on people, it's like, damn,
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: what's your excuse?
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: And you know what's fun, Evan. I have friends who
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: I've known who are like that. You know, I'll enter,
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: you know, I'll post what I'm doing on social media, like, Hey,
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: I'm entering this contest. This guy sent me an email,
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: and it was just this attitude like, oh man, I
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: wish you know, I don't have the time anymore, blah
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: blah blah and this, and I'm like, dude, you know,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: write a page a day or something I don't know,
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: or write something I mean, you know what, why are
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: you coming to me?
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean? Like, and was sitting you
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: up for advice or he was just saying like I'm
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: tired of seeing you talk about stuff.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: It was more like a backhanded, backhanded compliment sandwich. It
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: was like, hey, good to see you doing stuff well.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: But then then here comes the passive aggressiveness and then
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: he finishes up with like another compliment. So it's kind
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: of like, you know, I don't know how to take
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: this sandwich.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: But yeah, no, I've gotten a couple of those over
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: the years. And I mean, I think it's just like
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: when you're doing something good or well, or you know,
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: maybe not even good or well, just in general just
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: being active and not you know, sitting on your couch.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: You know, some people take offense to that, or some
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: people wish they were doing that and you know, I mean, again,
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: everyone has their own situation. I'm not going to pretend
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: I know why. You know, some people can't make a
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: film every year or whatever. But you know, to those
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: of us who are attempting to do that, I really
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: don't think you know the way to do it is,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: you know, backhanded compliments. I mean, if you're interested in
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: truly doing that for yourself, ask how did you do it?
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: Ask how can I help you? Ask can you help me?
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: You know, I think there's a more productive way to
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: have that conversation.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: And you know what, I want to have that conversation
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: right now, Evan, I want to ask how you did it,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: because you know, with Son of Clowns, you know you
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: so let me just guess with what you did and
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: maybe you can correct me. You know, maybe I'm wrong,
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: But you sat down and I think you made an
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: asset list of what you had access to, and you
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: sort of built the script on that, and you sort
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: of and you already had your team in place, and
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: you sort of, you know, you showed your team, hey,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: I made this, I wrote this script. Son of Clowns.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: What do you think they need to give you some feedback?
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: And you know, maybe went through a few drafts and
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: then you were saying, you know what, I think it's
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: ready to make this thing. And you you know, you
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: got those you know, the asset list, you you know,
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: you know, you you knew you had access to that stuff,
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: and you were able to sort of put together, you know,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: a shooting schedule, and you were you know, you put
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: everyone's schedules together, you know, of all the actors, and
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: you know, you got yourself a cinematographer or who was
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: already a part of your team, or you did it yourself,
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: and you were able to, you know, within one degree
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: or another, pretty much shoot the script that you wrote
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: because you sort of wrote from the inside out. Am
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: I right or wrong?
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: That's pretty pretty accurate to how the dominoes fell? Yeah,
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: I mean pretty much that's what I did. You know,
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: I started this project completely a couple of months after
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: I got out of film school. I was like, okay,
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: I want to write something.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: I was kind of schlepping it out on those reality
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: shows coming home at night, kind of wishing I could
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: do something a little more artistic. So I started writing,
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: and you know, took about you know, yearish, and at
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: that point I was finishing some promotion film festival circuit
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: touring for my last short, Displacement Welcome, which was my
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: thesis film from Film School at East Carolina, And during
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: one of those kind of interview situations, I met this
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: guy named Bradley Bethel, and he was a writer, but
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: he also expressed an interest in wanting to make movies
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: and produce and he was in the middle of making
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: a documentary and he you know, had a lot of
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: success with that, and he was saying he was interested
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: in kind of shifting into producing narrative film as well.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: So once I met him, it was kind of a
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: combination of my network and his network. So I met
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: my cinematographer through him. He met his assistant producer through me,
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: So you know, we kind of shifted and traded around
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: people we both it's new until we had this amalgamation
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: of a whole bunch of people. And then kind of
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: going back to what you said about, you know, making
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: a list of assets and things that had access to
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: absolutely because you know, when you're making a micro budget film,
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: you know you really don't have the luxury of just
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: like pointing to a place on the street and saying
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: we're gonna buy that place out for a day and
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: stick our cameras in there, because that's not how it
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: works when you're doing this. You know, we found these
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: locations weeks and months in advance, and you know said, hey,
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: what is the time when you know you're either doing
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: little to no business or your clothes. So that way
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: we don't have to you know, shut you down and
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: you know, take your guys's you know, cash full out
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: for a couple hours or whatever, you know, and make
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: it as easy for you guys as possible. And you'd
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: be surprised if you kind of phrase it that way
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: what a lot of people will be willing to do.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: You know, we kind of explain to them we will
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: promote this film heavily. Your you know, stuff will be seen.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: But you know, I think more than that, Like that's
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: kind of promises that you know, people have heard before.
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: I think if you're just transparent and honest and you
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: just say, look, we don't want to cost you money,
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: because like if you're a bar owner, right so we
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: filmed in several bars. If you're a bar owner and
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: I and Evan Kid just randomly shoots you an email
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: you don't know me from Adam. You know, you open
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: your email and you just see, hey, we have this
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: in you feel wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, lest film your peace
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: please blah blah blah. You're gonna be like, okay, so,
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: uh is this going to cost me money? Am I
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: gonna be out? And you just have to make it
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: speak their language. Essentially, they don't care that you're making
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: this personal film. Blah blah blah. All they care about
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: is Okay, I want to help you out, but you know,
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: let's not cost me a lot of money. So that
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: that's kind of the situation we framed with them.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: So the reason I was able to to sort of
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: gauge out Evan is because you know, I've done this myself,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: and lately I've been sort of that's been my you know,
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: for podcast listeners. They know that for every time I
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: introduce a show. Now, I've been talking about this, you know,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: you know making you know, how do you make a film?
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: You know, how do you make a film with what
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: you have access to right now? And you know, some
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: people at the Rodrigaz list, Uh you know, I actually
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: had Robert Riguez as a producer on here and we
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: and even and I were talking about that because he's like, yeah, Dave,
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: you pretty much got it. That's exactly what he what
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: he did. And uh so, you know, you know, if
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: you have access, you know, let's just say, for instance,
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: I had friends of mine. They had access to an
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: old abandoned meat packing plant and they had the key
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: and they were able to film there. And you know,
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: that's if that became a location. You know, Okay, we're
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: going to set the entire film in this abandoned meat
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: packing plant. Well what happens in there? Well, obviously it's
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: a horror film because you're not going to set a
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: comedy in there. So so it's now you know, it's
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: a slasher film, okay, And they're stuck in there, all right,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: and you know, one thing leads to another and they
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: sort of, you know, go from there, and you know
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: that that's sort of how they built the script, you know,
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: and I think that's how And I just also noticed
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: this too, Evan. I think this is sort of becoming
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: the calling cards slash hallmark of our time, where this
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: is this is a a sort of definition of talent.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: Can a person or film maker make a film in
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: one location and keep it interesting? You know, what I
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: mean ken a person, you know, make a movie with
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: you know, the Rodriguez list and keep it interesting. And
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: I sort of think this is a you know, sort
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: of the benchmark now where we're serious filmmakers and people
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: who just sit around and say, hey, listen, I have
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: an idea for a film. You know, I don't know
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: what to do, and I'm just gonna wait until somebody
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: gives me ten million dollars exactly.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: You mentioned Rodriguez, I mean him and link Later and
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: filmmakers like that. I mean, that's who I kind of idolize,
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: and you know, watched growing up in high school and
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: going through film school, and you know, those are kind
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: of the mindsets I like to kind of, you know,
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: put myself in if possible, because you know, I mean,
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: working with a million producers and investors in Hollywood's money
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: and you know, or some you know, rich guy's money
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: or whatever. I mean, that would be fantastic. I'm not
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: gonna lie. But you know, at the same time, I
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: think resource based filmmaking will get you a story that
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: you're not going to get if you make you know,
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: a film that way, if you kind of do it
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: quote unquote by the book I think in resource based filmmaking,
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: like you said, you know, there's people who will set
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: films in there, you know, meatpacking, abandoned warehouse, or you know,
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: like a lot of the mumble course stuff from ten
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: years ago, New York apartment pretty much the whole time.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: And you know, I think a lot of people poke
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: fun at that, or you know, kind of look at
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: it in a different way. But I mean, I actually
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: think there's a lot of strength to being a good
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: enough filmmaker to set something in one location like you said,
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: and keep it interesting. I think that might make you
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: more talented than if you, you know, have a film
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: that puts you in an outer space going through a different
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: planet every ten minutes or whatever. You know, nothing wrong
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: with that, but I just think that's more interesting to me.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: And you know, a lot of times filmmaking is like
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: solving a puzzle. So you know, for me, I like that,
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: I like that challenge. And I mean for Son of Clowns,
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: we probably made it harder on ourselves than we needed to,
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: just because we did have so many locations and a
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: lot of times your characters would drove around throughout the
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: triangle at North Carolina. That's the region of the film
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: is set, and you know, we probably didn't need to
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: make it is in depth as we did, but we
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: kind of wanted the film to have a slice of Raleigh,
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: North Carolina, So we kind of wanted to incorporate a
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: lot of different locations to give you know, people who
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: knew the area a little taste of it. And so,
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: you know, if we were to do it a different way,
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: like you know, I'm writing a new feature right now
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: and it's a little bit more of a psychological film,
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: a little bit more introspective, a little darker, and I
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: think you know, that film is probably going to be
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: a little bit more similar to that where you know,
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: there will be not as many locations, so it's going
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: to rely a lot on you know, character development. Not
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: that Santa Claus doesn't there's a lot of character development,
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: but you know, I think just in terms of getting
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: a new location to kind of you know, refresh your
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: you know, the ad of the audience so to speak.
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: You know, you may not get that, so I think
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: that is interesting definitely, and kind of being able to
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: tell that and convey that in a compelling way as
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: you know, a mark of strength.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and also you know, This is something I've talked
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: about before, which is if you were to live let's
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: just say, you know, I live in Philadelphia. You're in
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: North Carolina, correct.
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, by way of Louisiana at the moment. I'm working
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: on a project, but yeah.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: So you know where we live. People sort of aren't
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: burned out yet from from being asked. You know, if
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: you go to LA and say, hey, listen, I can
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: I shoot here, They're gonna say, look, look, buddy, you're
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: the third person today who's asked us about about that,
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: and the answer is going to be nice.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, oh sure. I mean I was in Los Angeles
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: last month for a film festival for Son of Clowns,
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: and it was kind of I'd been there before briefly
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: during layover, but you know, I was there for three
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: days this time and kind of got my feet wet,
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: so to speak, in LA. And you know, I was
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: talking to some folks at the festival and they were
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: just telling me all the same things, and they were
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: like the locals, and they were just saying, you know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: independent film is super tricky if you live in Los Angeles,
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: like they were saying, it's almost harder over there, just
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: because you know, people know, and it's such a part
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: of the culture, and you know, Hollywood is king over there.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: So you have a little bit of resistance. I mean,
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: you could obviously shoot something in your backyard or your
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: apartment or whatever. But like if you're, like you said,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: trying to get into bars and stuff, you know, you
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: may as well forget it unless you've got a lot
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: of money.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely, It's just it's you know, even a
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: friend of mine who actually found a little independent spot,
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: every time he shot there, they would raise the fee up.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: You know, they kept raising the fee up a little
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: bit more, a little bit more, and finally he by
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: like the fur or sixth time. He said, my god,
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: it's caused you know. It's now it's like a little
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: this little coffee shop they charge us like, I think
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: two hundred bucks. Now he's like, they're charging us over
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: one thousand dollars, and he said, you know, it just
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: doesn't make any fiscal sense anymore.
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know. I mean, if if we were to
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: film done of clowns in that coffee shop for two days,
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: we would have gone over our whole budget for the film.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: You know, I'd be like, that's the short of it.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: But you know, I definitely think if you want to
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: be an independent filmmaker, I would advise anyone to find
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: a city that's big enough to have crew base and
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: you know, film schools around it, so you know, maybe
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: not the middle of Idaho, although you could maybe challenge
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: yourself to do something out there. I don't know, but
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: if you find one of these kind of regional big cities,
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: I think you can really set yourself up for success.
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: Because I had a lot of friends who, after ECU
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: and film school, moved to Los Angeles, and like, several
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: of them are doing pretty good for themselves, but like
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: a couple others are really struggling, and you know, it's
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: a hard I mean, everyone knows it's hard out there,
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: but you know, a lot of them have not made
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: their own work since film school, and I think that's
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: just kind of hard because once you're in that system,
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: you kind of need to you know, be a cog.
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: You know, not as an insult, I'm not saying this,
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: but you kind of have to do that first before
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: you're allowed permission. And I think anywhere else you you
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: know that's there, but you kind of get a little
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: more leeway to say, okay, wait, back up, I want
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: to make my own story. How do we do this?
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I've heard that same, you know,
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: same type of experience too, is you know some people
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: do you know kind of well out there. A friend
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: of mine ended up you know, crewing on different stuff.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: Then he went to Louisiana. Now, yeah, where he you know,
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: he's working on Crewe a project. You know, he's working
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: on tons of projects and crew and other friends. You know.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: I had one friend who went out there. He had
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: contacts out the ass and you know what happened, Evan,
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: He felt very lonely and isolated out there. And he said, basically,
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: you know, everyone's always busy and one's always working, and
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: he just felt, you know, basically his only people he
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: could talk to with the people at like a Chinese
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: restaurant or whatever, and you know, because he would order
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: from them every day. He'd go down there and they
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: would know who he was and he'd say, oh, yeah,
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: it's me, you know. Uh, and you know, he just
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: he hated it and he ended up moving back, and uh,
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: funny little story, Evan. He still hasn't made a movie himself.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: And you know, we always I talked before about you know,
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: I said, what you know because he asked me. He's like, Dave, seriously.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: We went out to dinner and he said, Dave, what
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: is holding me back? And I said, your fear of
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: failure is holding you back because if you if you
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: think that you make this movie and it sucks, it's
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: going to mean you have no talent and it's going
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: to be indicative of everything that you've spent your whole
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: life doing. Yeah, and that's what's stopping you.
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, fear is uh. You know, there's a
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: book I've read. I think Robert Riguez mentioned in an
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: interview a whole bunch of years back, and it's called
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: The Art of Fear. And it's a book that basically
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: categorizes every doubt, every little inkling of you know, why
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: we shouldn't do an artistic endeavor into a category and
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: kind of lets you filter through it so you can
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: catch those thoughts before they come. It's a great read.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: It costs like eight bucks on Amazon. I would totally
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: recommend it, but you know, I would say it's not
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: just that book, because I mean, I made these this
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: film before I read that book. But I mean, I
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: think it's just a mindset and you know, I hate
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: just the little Nike just do it. But I mean
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: it's so true, like there's no one way that you're
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: going to be successful. There's no one way that you're
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: gonna make this, you know, feature short or whatever. But
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: you know, if you try, you can at least they try,
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: because I mean, isn't that the worst thing to go
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: to bed at the end of the day and kind
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: of all over in your head. Man, I still haven't
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: taken the jump. I mean, because at the very least,
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: if you take the jump and it's a horrible failure,
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, who who's really going to care? Like I mean,
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: maybe a few of your friends will be like, yeah,
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: he tried to make a movie, But like I guarantee
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: you a few of your friends have much bigger problems
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: than you know, trivializing over your movie. So you know,
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, at the end of the day, it's really
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: you that has to deal with it. So you know,
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: if you can kind of make peace in your own mind,
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: I think that's the key. Yeah.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: There's also a great book called The War of Art
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: by Steven Pressfield.
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: Oh I've got that one.
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is, you know what. I read that
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: book and I very rarely ever just put down a book.
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: You know that that's not fiction, and uh and and say,
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: holy crap, I gotta read that again right now. Literally,
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: I sat down to read it at a Barnes and Nobles.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: I read the whole thing, and I still I was like,
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: you know what, I'm gonna go buy this. I have
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: to buy it. I mean, this is like my my,
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: my new go to thing and everything he talks about.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: I was like, that's me. This is you know, you know,
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: you sit down to write and all and in one
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: ear you're hearing you know, sort of like you know,
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: your your your your muse. And then the other year
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: is resistance, you know, whisper, you know, whispering in your ear. Oh,
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: you have no talent. Don't do this. It's stupid. You're awful.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: Just forget about this and go be you know, go
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: sell you know, uh, snow cones down the beach and
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: you're like, well, you know what I guess I should
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: and you and you know what I mean, And I've
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: I've been there, you know where you're like, you know
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: what I should just go out forget all this stuff
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: and just go get a job, uh, you know, doing
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: whatever instead.
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean we've all dealt with that
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: kind of depression and that kind of wrestling within your mind,
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: you know, as you're an artistic person. I mean I
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: can only speak to my own experiences, but I mean
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: I know that to me is a lot worse than
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: the fear of failure. I mean, the depression and the
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: kind of you know, funk you get yourself into when
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: you're not working. I mean that freaks me out a
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: lot more than just making a film and it's like,
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: oh no, some people didn't like it. That's a lot
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: more frightening. So I mean, for me, it's never been
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: really about failure. It's it's been I just don't like
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: those kind of periods where I'm not doing something because
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: I feel like, Okay, what's wrong. There has to be
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: a reason, you know, maybe it's outside of filmmaking blah
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: blah blah. But you know, I think keeping yourself busy
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: and keeping yourself sane is the best way to do it,
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: because I mean, you can get caught up in your
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: head too easily. I mean, especially these days. I mean
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: you know, a lot of times, like we spend so
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: much time just staring at devices and you know, like
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: kind of not actually engaging with the world around us,
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: so you kind of end up in your head a
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: lot more than you may otherwise. And you know, I
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: think it's the best way to filter through that is
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: to make work, you.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: Know, yes, yeah, And I think that's where a lot
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: of frustration for some people comes in, is that they
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: can't either they don't want to write because they think
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: that if it's bad, it's indicative of them, even if
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: they write a script, you know, and it's and it's terrible.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: I've had to learn a very hard lesson, and I've
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: had to learn this over and over again, and that
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: is to stop trying to get perfectionism on the first draft.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: I don't I I it's like this weird thing with me, Evan,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: Like I will outline like you. I mean, I will
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: outline pages and pages and pages, and then I'm like, oh,
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: you know what, maybe let me, let me do something different.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: And I'm just like it's almost like you're you're you're
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: going in that hamster wheel because you're always taking that
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: first draft and then you and then you you say, hey, no,
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna start draft one one dash B and then
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: it's one draft C and then you know what I mean,
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: And then you're you're still in that first drift instead
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: of just getting something done and then trying to go
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: back and trying to figure out what worked what didn't work. Uh,
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: you know, And I think that's a lot of what
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: holds people back.
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: Oh absolutely. I mean I would say I just wrote
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: a pilot and it's a series that I'm gonna attempt
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: to work on here in uh, Louisiana. And the guy
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: I'm working on it with, you know, we basically just said, like,
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: let's get the Vomit draft out because we basically want
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: to shoot this pilot on our own and have a
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: you know, solid, you know, cut pilot, everything like that
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: nice and done to present to some investors to hopefully
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: get funding for the best to season. And you know,
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: for me, I was so worried about that. So I'm like, man,
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of people, there's eyes, there's people who
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: are going to try to repress. It's got to be perfect,
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: It's got to be perfect. I'm just like, I'm only
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: in stage one of the draft. I haven't even finished
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: into edits yet, and we haven't even shopped the film.
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: We haven't even cut the film, So there's a lot
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: more filters we're going to go through before this thing
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: seen by anyone. So, like, I think that's the thing.
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: Everyone's thinking way too far ahead, and like I think
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: everyone just needs to kind of chill out a little bit.
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: And I know that sounds counter productive and I need
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: to take my own advice sometimes, but you know, I
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: think if if you really get a little bit more
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: relaxed with it, at least on a first draft. I'm
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: not saying like, don't work hard and don't outline and
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: don't do this, because that's all very critical. I mean,
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: pre production is the key to being successful. But I
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: think a lot of times not trying to be so
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: hard on yourself with that first draft, because if you're
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: so hard on yourself making that first draft that you
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: never actually write it, it doesn't even matter, you know.
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you completely, man. And it
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: is getting that vomit draft out there. It is getting
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: something on the page, because that's the thing you get
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: stuck in your own head and you never sort of
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: stop thinking in terms of what if or It's what
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: somebody once told me is called this decision fatigue, you
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: know what I mean, where you sort of you make
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: so many decisions and you know that's taking of your energy,
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean. You're like, well, what if
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: this happens? No, no, no, what if this happens? And
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: then this happens? Then you're sort of just caught in
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: your own head of all these different options.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: Decisiveness is really underrated these days. Man.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: And it's hard to be decisive, I think because there
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: are so many options. I mean, like with film and
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: not you know, and just in life. I mean, there
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: are so many options with pretty much everything we do nowadays.
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: Do you want to shoot it on the sixty? You
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: do want to shoot it on see you one hundred
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: mark too? Don't want to shoot it on the lex?
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, like, so many options. But the end of
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: the day, it's just a damn camera if that's what
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: you're worried about, or you know, am I going to
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: cast this person to that person? If it's a micro budget, Well,
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day, your actors are pretty
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: much just a vessel that you're telling your story through.
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: You're not dealing with like Brad Paiter or anyone you know,
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: outrageously famous. So just make your stuff. I mean, like
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day, like all these little decisions,
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: they are important, but I think we as filmmakers really
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: to kind of trivialize them and kind of really make
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: them way more blown up than they have any business being. So,
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think a lot of times just committing
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: to something and again, I mean I'm guilty of it too.
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: It's hard to be decisive sometimes, but I think just saying, Okay,
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: I'm writing ten pages today, or I'm writing from two
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: o'clock to three o'clock, not looking at my phone. I'm
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: not gonna check Twitter, blah blah blah. I'm just gonna,
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: you know, turn off the Internet and just write. I mean,
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: like that's really underrated and that's and it's difficult, but
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: you know, I think doing that and getting in a
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: habit of kind of reprogramming your brain is really helpful
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: to getting work done.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, getting that, you know, just turning off all
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: those distractions. And I think that is a thing too, man,
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: you know, is that the cell phone is like this
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: sort of the double edged sword. You can do so
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: much with it, but there's also so many things vying
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: for your attention. And what I what I find is
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: when I'm gonna write, I take the cell phone away
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: and I just sit in front of my computer. I
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: can turn off the Internet through a number of different
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: add ons and you know what I mean, and you
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: just and I just work inside something like open Office,
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: which is free because it's open sourced, or even just
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: Notepad or fade in or final Drift and just that's that,
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: make a full screen mode and just write for you know,
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: twenty minutes and get into that habit. Because somebody once
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: told me, oh, I'm gonna butcher this, but I think
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: it's you know, actions become habits, and then habits become
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: what you're known for. Oh yeah, and I maybe I
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: did butcher that. I'm not sure, but uh, but that
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: but that's so true, you know, and you're you're gonna
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: they're gonna say, hey, there's Evan. That's the guy who
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: can write for you know, two or three hours without
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: looking at his phone. He's a freaking superstar, because you know,
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: most people can't go five secs.
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm there yet, but I'm working.
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's hard. It's definitely
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: hard to turn off those distractions.
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it real, it really is. And uh, you know,
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: you know, Evan, you know, we've been talking for about
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: you know, forty eight minutes, and I just want to ask,
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: you know, before uh, you know, would we start wrapping up.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: I just want to ask about Son of Clowns. You know,
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: what was one of the biggest production issues that you had.
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, whether it be a location or maybe you
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: were gonna film outside and thunderstorm rolls in. You know
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: what was one of the biggest production issues you ran
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: in while making Son of Clowns?
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: I mean kind of throwing through just time. I mean,
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: we shot this whole feature in ten days, which was
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: really a brutal schedule. You know, we a lot of
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: times we would just pull ourselves up in a location
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: for three days, you know, do air mattresses, that whole thing,
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: and just get it done. We didn't shoot ten days straight,
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: but we shot ten days over the course of about
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: two weeks, two and a half weeks, so I mean
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: it was you know, three or four days straight, then
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: a day or two off and then right back at
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: it kind of so on and so forth. But I mean,
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: aside from time, I mean, I think it was just
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: trying to get conditions perfect because a lot of this
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: was I mean, it's a narrative film, but we shot
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: in the real world. There was no sound stages, there
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: was no you know, roping off an entire area to
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: make it quiet. I mean a lot of times we'd
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: have like giant trucks trying to come through and we're
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: filming in a parking lot for a scene, and like
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: this eighteen wheeler was trying to make a delivery and
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: then we had to stop and wait for him. And
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: then by the time he finished unloading his truck, like
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: the sun was way different, the lighting looked, you know,
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: completely off, and you know, it's just trying to fix
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: those things. And it's really easy in the moment be
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: like I we'll fix it in post. But it's just like,
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: don't shoot yourself in the foot. But I mean, I
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: actually you mentioned the thunderstorm. A quick little story from set. Uh,
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: there's a scene towards the end of the movie. I
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: won't spoil it, but a Jabbari who's Hudson's brother Hudson's
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: our main character in the film. Basically, they're they're mending
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: kind of a soured relationship between the two of them.
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: Something's gone wrong in a very big way. And basically
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: they're doing this scene where you know, they're trying to
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: make amends or Hudson's trying to make amends and you know,
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: Jabari's having none of it. And it's really this dramatic,
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: tense moment, Like, I mean, they were both doing so
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: good you could cut the tension with you know, a
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: pair of scissors, but out of nowhere, you just hear
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: this giant thundercloud and they stating character and just kept
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: going in that slowly started raining a little bit, and
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: then the light was all weird and wonky, but you know,
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: we kept brawling, and that's the take we used. And
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: so a lot of times when people watch the film,
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: there's this like thunder in the background while they're having
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: this argument, and a lot of people are like, did
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: you add that, And I'm like, no, no, no, that's
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: just from like the real world. So I mean it's
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: like it fit really well, I thought, and like it
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: didn't come off as like corny or weird, because I mean,
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: it didn't sound like an effect. I mean it was
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: just off in the distance and you could see it,
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: so it was really cool. And uh, you know, it's
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: just one of the situations where you know, we wouldn't
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: have got that from a sound stage. We wouldn't have
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: got that from you know, a whole bunch of like
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: polished you know, clean sets or anything. You know, it's
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: just shooting in the real world. That's what happens. So
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think you do get happy accidents like that,
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: but then at the same time you get the guy
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: unloading the eighteen wheeler, so that's a double edged sword.
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: So I think it's just a matter of like time
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: and getting those locations, you know, to work for you
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: instead of you working for your location.
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, it's amazing when you're out there
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: actually filming all the things that could happen, and you
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: know sort of the some things can come together very well,
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: and then something's like you see the truck the guy
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: and learn the truck and can sort of put a
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: damper on things. And you know, uh, you know, just
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: some of the things that I found in hearing stories
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: about filmmaking and you know, vi own personal experiences, you know,
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: sometimes you just you just never know. I mean we're
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: For instance, I was going to film in uh for
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: three days out in this in this park, and I
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: looked at the weather forecast and they said it was
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: going to be beautiful all three days. Evan, it stormed
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: like crazy, and we were gonna use zombies and we
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: couldn't put them out there because the zombie makeup was
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: going to run, so we ended up having to sort
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: of do everything inside and they look completely different than
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: what we wanted. It was just, you know, we improvised
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: as best we could, but it's always like, damn it,
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: if only we could have done more outside.
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: It's you know, yeah, I mean, filmmaking is just a
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: big game of improvisation and trying to stay two steps
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: ahead of the real world. And I mean like, as filmmakers,
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: we have an unhealthy habit of thinking the world's going
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: to stop for us while we're on set. But you know,
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: the world doesn't care. That guy, you know, unloading his truck,
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: he's just you know, doing it job, like, he doesn't
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: care that we're making a film. I mean, you know,
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: so it's like that's what you deal with. You know,
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: it's gonna rain or it's gonna do this or that,
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: and it's just a matter of being flexible. I mean,
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: I think like being kind of zen about everything and
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: really trying to, you know, I guess, be a little
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: bit hippie with it and just try not to let
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: every little thing bother you and just kind of be
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: a piece. I mean that's the key, because I mean,
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: if you're you have to be type A, I think
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: to make productions work. But I think if you can
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: kind of take a little bit of a type B
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: mindset when something goes wrong, you're gonna save yourself a
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: couple of great hairs. Yeah.
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think also meditation helps with that. Yeah, just
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: learning to learning to roll with this and be like, Okay,
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: you know what, we'll figure this out. I'm gonna become
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: very David Lynching about this. I'm gonna you know, try.
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean that's that's how I try to be.
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, like Werner Herzog, he talks a lot about
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: you know, just shooting Gorilla and like just the stuff
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: that could go wrong and how you'd kind of incorporate
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: that into your film and how that's actually part of
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: your esthetic. And like, I mean I absolutely buy that
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: because I mean a lot of our film was just gorilla.
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: I mean it was just out there, and you know,
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: it was it was wild, and so, you know, you
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: deal with the situations that come by just sticking a
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: camera in the real world, and I think it gives
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: your film a little bit of authenticity. I think that's
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: actually really exciting, but I think at the same time
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: it's also challenging. But once you capture it's almost like, hey,
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: I got away with something. Hey we did it. We
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: you know, managed a film here, even though that guy
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: unloaded his truck or whatever, and so you kind of
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: walk away with a little bit of a you know,
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: excited edge you may not have got if you just
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: kind of rolled camera in a perfect little situation and everything,
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: you know, just checked off the list.
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very very true, very true, Evan. You know, Evan,
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: just in closing, I want to ask where people check
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: out Son of Clowns.
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So we are playing two more festivals at the moment.
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: Like I said, we were just at Action on Film
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: in Los Angeles, and we were at Yollywood Film Festival
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: in Atlanta this past weekend. And we've got Queen City
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: Film Festival in Maryland on the sixth, so it may
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: not be this may not be out by then, but
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: then we have a Cuckle Lauris Film Festival back home
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: in North Carolina, and I am super excited for that
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: film festival. That's one I've loved personally for a while,
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: and so it's gonna be a great homecoming for the film.
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: And actually, the day after Cuckle Lauris ends this film,
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: November fifteenth, is going to be streaming for Amazon Prime
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: and Amazon Video on Demand. So November fifteenth is the
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: day I think most people should remember because you'll be
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: able to check out Son of Clowns in full and
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: streaming on Amazon.
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: And I will also link to all that in the
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: show notes everybody, and just in case, in case they
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: didn't get that. But again, it's at Davilis dot com,
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: Evan where we'll find you out online.
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I do Twitter probably the most, So if you
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: do Twitter, Twitter dot com, my thing is at mister
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: Evan Kid. My work's also online Rocksetproductions dot com. That's
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: where I keep everything. And then obviously if you want
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: to know more about Son of Clowns in particular, Self
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: Clowns dot COM's got everything you need to know.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's like you know, I always say,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: you know, social media is a tool and it depends
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: how you want to wheel that tool. And Twitter is
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: one that I have. I have met so many people
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: in there, Evan. Uh you know, I I would say
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: you and I meant on there, but you actually you
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: and I meant through email, but.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: I saw you on Twitter. That's probably I think.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: So there you go. All right, the Twitter. Twitter is
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: the you know, it's an actual source of all that. Evan.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: I want to say thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: This has been a blast of a conversation dude, and uh,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: you know, I wish you the best son of clowns.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: And uh, you know, if you ever want to come
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: back talk about you know, whatever else you're up to,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: about the TV pole you talked about or whatever else,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: please you know, there was always open.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks Dave. I appreciate it.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: Oh my pleasure, Evan kid. I want to say thanks again,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: and I wish the best of luck. Man.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: Thanks man, appreciate it.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: And time take here, buddy.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: Thanks.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: Forward slash four thirty five. Thank you so much for
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: listening to guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: dot tv.