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A Conversation on Plagiarism in the Dance Industry with Jason Williams and Jared Baker - Part 1 · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is Making the Impact a Dance Competition Podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_06: Hello, dance world, and welcome to Making the Impact A Dance Competition Podcast.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_06: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm excited to share with you part one of our summer bonus episode.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_06: As you know, season four raps went to the first part.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_06: But since then, there have been some important conversations between headlines in the dance community when it comes to stolen choreography.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_06: Dance educators and choreographers Jason Williams and Jared Baker recently spoke out on social media about discovering that their choreography has been stolen and reproduced without their consent by others in the industry.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_06: We've reached out to Jason and Jared to take the conversation one step further, and invited them both to be guests on our podcast.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_06: We hope that by having these types of conversations on making the impact, we will continue to support and advocate for what's right in our industry, to help educate dancers and teachers on why you should not plagiarize choreography, and to encourage others to speak out when faced with difficult situations throughout their careers.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_06: Like always, I'm joined by my co-host Leslie Miller on this discussion.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_06: So sit back and enjoy part one of our summer bonus episode.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_06: Alright, dance world.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_06: Because this is a hot topic that we knew we had to tackle.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_06: Leslie and I saw talk going around in the industry about choreography being stolen by two very fabulous choreographers, and they spoke out about it and it just created such a buzz on social media.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_06: Everyone's talking about it.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_06: And we were like, you know what?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_06: We want to hear their story directly from the choreographers and their experience and continue to get the word out about this because we need to do better as an industry.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_06: We need to talk about why this is an issue.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_06: And we already did a stealing choreography episode earlier this season, y'all.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_06: So if you haven't listened to that, be sure to tune in.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_06: We're gonna dive deeper into this, and we have two special guests joining us on this summer bonus episode.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_06: The first guest that I would love to welcome to the podcast is someone who I've been admiring from a distance, and I haven't had the opportunity to get into their class yet at Steps on Broadway, but I need to ASAP.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_06: They are doing such great things and it's such an amazing, amazing educator.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_06: I'm excited to welcome Jason Williams to our podcast.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_06: Welcome, Jason.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, thanks for having me.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, I'm so happy you were able to squeeze us in.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_06: I know you were busy traveling and teaching the summer away and doing your thing, but uh we are grateful that you are here to join us today.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_06: And also I am just really, really proud of you and so inspired by your choice to bring this to light when you discovered that your choreography was stolen.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm sure we're gonna get into that story.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_06: But before we do, if you wouldn't mind telling the world a little bit more about you, where you grew up, where you're based, any career credits you'd like to share, and what you're working on.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up in North Carolina, uh, Wilmington, North Carolina, to be exact.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Grew up dancing there.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Then I, you know, high school, all of that, moved out, started working in the career in my in the dance field to LA.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: So you think you can dance, high school musical, like that was kind of all the beginning of my career.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Casual.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just trying to keep it brief.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's like a 20-year career there, like that we're working with.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like it's a lot.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: High school musical, then I was touring with artists, Mary J.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Blige.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: I was with Gaga for a while, not touring, but doing a lot of like shows with her, Lady Gaga, a bunch of artists, a bunch of TV shows, a bunch of all of all of the things.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, now I'm currently in New York and I'm teaching at steps.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm on staff on faculty with uh adrenaline dance convention, traveling with them.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And also the Jason Williams experience is my convention.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's my like workshop with me that I go to studios and we just work and talk and live life together and do life together in the studio.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, that's that's like the this you know synopsis, a brief synopsis of me.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, I love it.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_06: And like I said to all of our listeners out there, you have to go check out his Instagram and see these awesome videos.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_06: And obviously, everyone's watching these videos because guess what?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_06: They're stealing the choreography straight from the videos, y'all.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Literally, like fresh off the press.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, and um, we're gonna talk all about that very, very shortly.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_06: But Jason, I'm very happy that you are here to join us and speak out on this.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_06: And thanks for making time into your busy schedule.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: No problem.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for having me.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_06: All right, and our next guest who is joining us is someone that I'm newly meeting and actually just uh discovered them because they also spoke out.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_06: Actually, thanks to Jason speaking out.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_06: This next guest said, you know what?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_06: I think it's time for me to share my story as well and share my experience.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm very excited to welcome Jared Baker to the podcast.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_06: Welcome, Jared.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you, Jason.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_06: And I love that you both are here uh t together to, you know, share your feelings in your own experiences with one another because I'm sure you have many similar experiences and feelings right now.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_06: But like I said, we will dive into that.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_06: Jared, if you wouldn't mind telling the world a little bit more about you.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up uh in Fort Worth, Texas.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I have my Bachelors of Fine Arts and my Masters of Fine Arts from the University of Arizona School of Dance.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I do a lot of freelance choreography across the country at different dance studios.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was a Capizio Ace Awards finalist in 2014.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I now am the artistic director and co-founder of Nova Linea Contemporary Dance, uh, which is a professional company based out of Milwaukee.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_06: Love it.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_06: Amazing.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_06: Love hearing it.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_06: And you obviously are involved in the competitive dance world as well.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, definitely involved in the competitive dance world.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge world right now in our industry.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the professional dancers are now coming from that world and in that environment.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's important to stay connected into both worlds for sure.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I love that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_06: Well, yes, let's jump on in to this chat and can't wait to hear y'all's stories.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, listeners, we just wanted to give you a quick heads up.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Making the impact will not be using any identifying names of anybody involved in these situations for our protection.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are interested in finding out more, you can search for yourself on the internet because I'm pretty sure it's all there.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_06: All right.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_06: So let's jump in.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_06: Leslie, do you have any things you want to kick things off with?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think first off, I think we need to update everybody on what what these uh scenarios are because it was very prevalent uh in our social circles, but we live in a very, I wouldn't call it insulated, but you know, you're peop people in the general dance competition world might not have heard about this, but people in the professional industry did.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to hear just a small, you know, synopsis of what has happened to both of you in the past few months.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that way we can have a context for what we're talking about today.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Jason, would you like to go first?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I um just opened up my Instagram one day and I had a message someone and they were like, Did you choreograph this for this studio?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or you know, they were like, Did they were inquiring at and I was like, No, what are you talking about?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: I do a lot of studio choreography, so I was like, Oh, probably, you know, and so I looked and I was like, I don't know that studio, and I looked and I was like, I definitely didn't give that studio this choreography.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, and then I started doing a little bit more diving in and saw the studio context in which my choreography was like put into the studio director, and like I just saw everything that was connected to them that was not of me.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, and I just started getting more and more agitated as I discovered more about the situation.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just not one to really hold my tongue about injustices.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've never been.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: I got kicked out of student council in third grade because I told my teacher that she couldn't speak to us another student that way.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like I told her someone else in third grade, Mr.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Mr.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Inda.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you can believe her name out.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: She won't, she won't hear this, but in third grade, my mom had to come to school, and like it was a thing.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And like, and when I and I talked to my mom about this, and I was you know sharing with her what happened, and she was like, I'm not surprised.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: She was like, This is who you've been, this is how you've always been.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I have a friend of mine that calls me Jason Luther King.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, You just always are you're always, I mean, growing up, I had a Superman sign in my bedroom.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I always just believed that there was within us all, we should all be standing up for what's just right, like right.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's just how I've always seen things.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I've known that this has been a thing.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: I've known that this has happened for you know to people.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen it happen.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a judge.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen I've seen stolen choreography.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: But when the bus stopped at my station, I was like, okay, everyone get off.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and just for for context for everybody too, the the choreography that was stolen was from an Insta or uh was it TikTok or Instagram?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh both.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: So a social media post that had garnered like a bazillion gazillion views and likes and like it was a viral post, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it went it went very viral.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it and the choreography is was at Steps on Broadway, correct?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it Steps on Broadway is an adult studio, 18 and up, correct?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: Most of the time, yeah.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so and the choreography that you set on the people in your video that went so viral were adults, and then the but was the context appropriate for who ripped it off, in your opinion.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so there's two two twofolds to this.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, within the post itself, I mentioned what this choreography meant to me.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I said this choreography is for the blackness, the queerness, dude, the the duality of myself.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like this choreography to me was like such a like not a coming out of any means because I have a long time ago, but it was it just was very personal to me about like what it felt like to me and to share to the world.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: It felt very feminine, it felt felt very masculine, it felt very sexy, it felt very just like present of like who I am today.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I posted that, that's what it was.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it was fine that people were doing it in their living room and sharing it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I've taught this on, I've taught this on convention.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've taught this in the senior room.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't feel that, and but the thing with the thing with that is when I teach it, I am there to navigate how the experience is.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm there to navigate what things mean, how we go about it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: When I'm teaching it as adults, I'm having a totally different conversation rather than teaching it to kids.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: So to not have me there to garner the conversation and to make sure that the movement and the the movement is being uh shared appropriately and correctly, that was kind of like you took that away from me.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: You took that it's not only just the movement they took, it's it's your my artistry.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: You took the artistry away from me, you know, you know, and it what it is is so flavorful and so soulful, and then to watch it back and to be completely void of flavor and soul is just like it just like hurts my soul.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then to take it even deeper to see that it was a white cisgendered male who had done so, it really agitated my soul.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: My ancestors started speaking to me, and then they were like, Oh, there's a systematic and there's a historic problem that is reoccurring in this situation that is bigger than me.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: And when I brought that up, things started getting called and names started getting called, and I was like, No, no, no, but you don't understand because you're not me and you don't have a history of this being part of happening to you.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: There's a history of people like said person taking from people like me.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a bigger topic, but also triggering to me.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that deep.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's just dance, like it's just dance, or it's I didn't lose any sleep over this, or you know, like there was nothing, I didn't shed a tear over this, but it's just what's right and what's wrong, and to kind of flag it and be like, okay, hey, yeah, this can't happen.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: This shouldn't happen, and then to bring attention to it and then to be and then to be the backlash, not even the backlash, but like to not even be received.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I learned about it in a very like cool, calm manner, and then to get it got kind of dirty and nasty, and I was like, Oh wow, okay.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we're we're dealing with some kind of we're dealing with a person and people who are just not there's still the people that steal and then people that don't really know how to handle you know business the correct way.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_06: You would think that when someone gets caught in a m in in anything, like you you got caught, you were hoping you were never gonna get caught, but you did.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_06: You know you were wrong.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_06: Don't you think the least you can do is it is apologize?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_06: At the minimum, I think it could be a I am so sorry.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_06: I didn't mean anything by this.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_06: I didn't thank you for educating me on on and informing me on why this is wrong.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_06: Because that that obviously doesn't sound like it happened at all.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_06: And I think I'd love to also chime Jared in because I'd love to hear your experience as well to share with our listeners because I have a feeling it's very similar.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very similar.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you couldn't hear me, but I'm like nodding my head so much right now.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I was notified by a former student of mine who was in the piece that was stolen.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: She was actually sent it from a friend of hers that said, Hey, isn't this the dance that you did?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, Yes, but that is not me.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: That is someone else.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I saw that video and I I had a different, slightly different reaction than Jason, maybe.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I did scream a lot and I did shed some tears.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it because it was the first time this has happened to me too.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna rephrase that.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first time that I knew that I've known that it's happened to me.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's happened before.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: My situation was maybe a little bit different only because it was a university dance team.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was a student who had choreographed the piece on the dance team.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, from my perspective, I was actually really hopeful because I thought, wow, this is in a university setting.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is an academic setting.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way that the university is going to stand for this.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I contacted the dance team.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I talked to the manager of the dance team who, you know, she was apologetic, apologetic that we were in the situation, right?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily apologetic that it had happened.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that's not even an apology.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, it wasn't.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry you feel that way.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what that is.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And really just saying, you know, she's not this this choreographer was a student, she's not affiliated with university anymore.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And really unsure of how to proceed.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I, you know, I had told her on the phone, well, what I'm looking for is a public apology.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for you as a person who's in power and as a as a program and as an institution that's that's that holds ownership over your students.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for you to say, um, we do not condone this behavior and we'd like to recognize the person who whose choreography this really was.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I had that conversation.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't hear anything for about a week.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I took matters into my own hands and I emailed her back.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I also emailed a representative from the university and I outlined my requests for them, one of which being the public apology, and I wrote the statement for them, did the work for them.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I also yeah, uh I also, you know, I requested them to develop a mentorship program at the their university.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: If they were gonna have student choreography, they needed to have a mentorship program and they needed to have a way for the coaches and the teachers to be able to navigate and check in with the students to make sure.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I requested that and then I didn't announce this publicly at first because I felt weird about it.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel weird about it anymore, but I did request to be paid for my work at the time because the dance team had that work on their stage, they produced it in their concert, they sold tickets to that concert, they had other guest choreographers, well-known choreographers that work for their students that they presented in that show.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I just felt like, you know, had they asked me to come, I would well, first of all, I would have never said that work for them.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: But had they, I would have never done that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that piece was way too personal and way too special.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would have never said it on anybody else.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: But had they asked me to come choreograph, they would have paid me for my work, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_06: Yep.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I sent that email, took about a week, and then I got a response from the general counsel of the university saying that because the choreography in question was not copyrighted, they were declining my request to apologize and they were declining my request to pay me.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: But they will, however, uh be taking all of my resources.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: They took my side by they took my side-by-side video, and they're gonna now use that to create a curriculum for mentorship for their dancer.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I also had told them, yeah, I had also told them that I would be so welcome and honored to help them create this program.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, I went through the university system, I know how it works.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I've been mentored by people in the university system.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: We have a mentorship program at the University of Arizona where I had mentors that helped me through the creative process.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt like I was a great person to be able to step up and help them with that.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they also declined my help into making that happen.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that was really unfortunate.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: I have yet to hear from the choreographer.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: She blocked me on all social media platforms.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_06: You know, I also do think that she's like eliminated her own social media from my.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think she's completely she's gone.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: She's just, she's not on it anymore.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_06: She's gone.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_06: Wow.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: She's she disappeared herself.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And she taught for a very popular dance convention, which was the most shocking part for me.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we did contact that dance convention back in April and said, you know, just as from one dance educator to another dance educator, we think it's really important that you should know about this.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we hope that, you know, you see this and we want to give you the opportunity to do what you think is the right thing to do.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is not your fault.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you didn't know about this, this is not your fault, and you shouldn't be tied into this.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: From my knowledge, they removed her from the schedule and then she was put back on.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then I found out yesterday that she's been removed again.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh what a roller coaster.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit of a roller coaster.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_06: Wow.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I have not heard a little progress.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a little progress.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have not heard from that choreographer.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I did, however, hear from her father.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: What?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um her her father did reach, yeah.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_06: And the story did.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Her father did reach out to me and said he would like to talk and said he saw the similarities in the concept of the work.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I responded, and I, you know, I was grateful to hear from someone.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone?
• 20:30
  unknown: Yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just at least appreciating that someone was trying to make an attempt.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I do appreciate that.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: I did, however, I emailed him back and I said, you know what, thank you so much for reaching out to me.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate that.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: However, I'm surprised that I'm not hearing from the choreographer.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Your grown daughter, your adult daughter.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:48
  unknown: Right.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if she would like to talk to me, she is more than welcome to reach me out this email.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_06: Wow.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_06: I wonder like if she knows that the dad reached out.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, yeah, I don't, I I'm I don't like to I try not to make assumptions in my life because I I like to give everybody the benefit of the doubt.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why, you know, it took me so long to speak and why, you know, I just I try not to name people.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: If I try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, and I I try to give everybody many opportunities to make a make a wrong a right, but at a certain point that you've you've run out of time to make something right, you know.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I don't know if she knows.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: I I hope I don't I guess I can't confirm that the but that her father got the email, but I hope that he did, or or I I'm sorry, I hope that he didn't, because that would make me feel better about the situation.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's just really unfortunate.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know, and and I'm sure Jason, you haven't heard anything either.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the most unf or maybe you have.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I so initially the choreographer or the studio owner just said call me, or like it was a very like call me and gave me its number, and I'm like, Bro, I'm not calling you.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want you to have a number.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't like this is no.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: I've already I see how you operate and I've already heard how you operate from everyone that chimed in.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: They were like, This guy's no good, he's been doing this for years.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's no, he's not a good person.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, Yeah, I'm not giving you my phone number.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I had a I had a uh legal counsel, like she reached out for him.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: She was a media, sorry, legal mediator.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: She reached out and just was like, Hi, speaking on behalf of me, wanting to just like facilitate any, you know, the conversation.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And they she called, she called again, she got hung up on, picked up, hung up on her.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um called the studio, they said, Stop calling here, kind of thing.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh really?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then they proceeded to uh harass her.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: They this they like lit, I have the voicemails.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: They left her voicemails at like 6 a.m.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: in the morning, just like voicemail after voicemail after voicemail, of them being like making fun of her accent.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: She has this gorgeous, like South African, I believe, or like this French, like it's like a very pretty accent.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And on the voicemails, they're making fun of her accent.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, adults, adults, yeah, adults are leaving meaning.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, adult men what making fun of her accent, being like, hi, did it like like very just like mocking her, and like she was like, Whoa.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: So she would call me and she'd be like, I'm sending, I'm sending you all of these voicemails.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, so we have them all, and she was like, Yeah, we're dealing with like some kind of we're dealing with people that I don't know how to deal with.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I know I was like, I already could see that.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like to like judge a book by its cover, but when the book is dusty, you can tell it's a dusty book.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, a dusty book's a dusty book, you know?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, Yeah, this is why I didn't want them to have my contact information personally because I don't I don't play like that, you know.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: So she ended up just kind of like being like, Yeah, let's just go ahead and hand this over to some other people.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so we we did as such, but yeah, there was no, there was no, you know, there was no contact or I mean I was blocked right away from all the things, and then I had parents from that studio being calling me a liar and saying things to me and saying like you haven't you don't have proof, like you know, all these people are like backing you up and they don't even know the story, they don't even know that they haven't even they haven't even seen anything.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that's when I was like, okay, well, I'll show them.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a bone collector.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: I make sure that I have things to back up things, you know, like it's been you know, I watch enough scandal to like know.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I I feel like I was gonna ask, like, when when did you both know it was the time to bring this to the public?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_06: Because you know, you know, like it sounds like you both took the right steps in the prof in a professional way, in a in an adult way, to bring this to everyone's attention and inform people.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_06: I know what's going on, I'd like to rectify this.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_06: How can we resolve it?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_06: Here's my here's what I want from you.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_06: And it sounds like that both sides just said, nope, you want nothing to do with that.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_06: Bye.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_06: And that like on your end, was that the final, like, all right, you know what?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_06: I'm gonna send this out to the public to show them what's really going on.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that it didn't take me much.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was just like, oh, okay, well, here we go.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: We can do this this way then.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And at that point, I already knew I wasn't gonna get anything in return.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I knew I already knew like once it's there, they're gonna, you know, they're gonna react or retaliate or hide.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And they, you know, they hid and blocked me, blocked everyone.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then it started getting weird.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, started getting like weird messages from people and stuff.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just like, and and he started going around and like adding all my friends.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: He added my mom on Facebook.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: All these parental, like, why?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he like went to my mom's and like other friends' Instagrams and they would send me screenshots and they were like, um, why is he request?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Why is he friend requesting me?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what is like why what's the thing?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I don't know, like just block them and carry on with your life.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just it got messy.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, I'm way too blessed to be stressed.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: I my life is great, my art is great.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: I will continue to, I will continue, I continue to create, I'll continue to grow.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, on one hand, it's like, well, at least you're the person that people are stealing from.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was a thought process.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, like there's that.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: But then it's also just like, yeah, you don't get to steal from me though, and not get at least reprimanded or like called out for it.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's just that's just how that is.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then recently I had an I've got another video from another studio that was doing my choreography, and I was choreography and I put them on blast as well.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: I did get a message from the teacher that was in charge, not the studio owner.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: I got blocked from the studio Instagram.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Great, good wow, yeah, like it's my fault, but whatever.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I got a message from the teacher, and then she apologized and she said that it was her fault.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: They added it, the kids wanted to, they and they added it.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, She was like, I see now that that was the point where I should have been like, and so I was like, okay, yes, that's what should have happened.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: You should have contacted me.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have said yes, because the thing about me as a choreographer is I choreograph when I go to studios, I do a lot of studios, I'm not a studio now.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: When I go to studios, I make sure to customize the movement for the kids or there.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's if your kids could if your kids could have handled it, sure, we would have gone, you know, we would have given a vibe similar.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: But right, your kids can't handle that's not what you that's not what you're good at.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's not I would have made you look, I would have made you look great, right?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: But by what I'm working with, and that's where I thrive as a choreographer, especially in the studio setting.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can go to any studio and make them a winning studio because I can work with what's there, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm like, you did yourself a disservice by taking something, emulate, appropriating it and failing, like doing it less than you took something that was great and watered it down and made it nothing.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like you did yourself a disservice.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: All you had to do was call me and bring me in.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's all you need to do.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that hard.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: I go into many studios, and every studio that I go to is of a tier and of a taste level that they would never and so I find that it's also a taste level thing, yeah.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's also an educational thing because some people don't even know what the word appropriation appropriation means.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yes, it is my job as an educator to educate the masses about art and things, but it's also just your job as a studio owner to understand that that's not okay.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's just not right.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you should know that you never take a song, and you couldn't like if this was you take a Beyonce song and you record it and put it on your album, you're gonna get sued.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you know that, like you would know that about that, you would know that about music, you would know that about like other things, but when it comes to dance, she even said she was like, Well, I just thought because you've taught it on convention and you've taught it, um, you posted it on your Instagram that it and I was like, that's it.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: But it was free, that it was free to take.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, No, ma'am, it doesn't work.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a free ebook on Amazon, like what you know that, and you know that, and so you know, yes, there is some that's why I'm here to you know speak about it in a way where people can now go, oh, okay, I see for those who don't know, who really didn't understand because you don't know what you don't know, and I think that's something I think it's just a logical common sense thing for pretty much.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_06: You would hope.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_06: Can we learn about like plagiarizing in school?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: Don't copy that floppy.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: That was like the thing.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, I don't know if you'd like, don't copy that floppy.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, copy that floppy.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then it just it mesmerizes me with with uh Jarrett's work specifically to take the time.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's uh two things to this to take the time to go and to understand and to watch and to steal to do that rather than to just make something up on your own.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, shows how much of a creative you are not.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: But then it shows me how I mean, even myself, I don't even like going back and watching my own choreography to relearn it, to teach it.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'd rather just make something up, make something new up, create something new.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: But that's because I'm a creative and I'm a choreographer and it comes to me in a way that is innate and it is part of who I am, and it's my job, and it's my it's like how I it's my living, it's how I make a living.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: So the people that are out there collecting a check from parents, collecting a choreography fee for stolen choreography, like the the fact that that doesn't hang on their conscience at all.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm like, wow.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the parents don't even know.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, you're paying and I've had messages from parents being like, if I would have known I was paying for stolen choreography, I would have not paid.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, what am I paying for then?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_06: You know, but then there's a lot of parents in your situation who have defended the studio owner, which is bizarre to me.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_06: Like, even though there's like perfect proof of a side by side, you have literally stolen everything and oh, red flags everywhere because studio owner is now blocking you and won't answer your phone calls and won't even apologize.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_06: Like, as a parent, don't you just have a light bulb go off and realize, like, uh oh, maybe my studio owner is in the wrong right now.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_06: Nope.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_06: I'm just gonna keep defending them.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_06: They're totally, I believe them.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_06: Like, no, come on, people.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_06: Like, we should know what's right from wrong.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, birds of a feather pluck together, you know, lowbrow is lowbrow.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_06: And on your end, Jared, with your your work that was stolen, I mean, it was pretty much the entire dance.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, from the concept to the song to the stage, the traffic, the staging, the traffic patterns, who's on stage at the same time, even full like eight, like four counts of eight phrase work, like to a T, it was the exact same thing.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_06: And I just, like you said, Jason, I've when I saw that, I was like, how many times did that person have to run to their computer and really reference the video and press for wine so they could reteach it in that moment?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard from a lot of dancers in that piece that have come forward and apologized and so that they were unaware of it.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and I I do believe that.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a lot of people.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people on that stage.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: 20, 20 people, which is the same amount of people that are in my piece too.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, wow, she they were very counted.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: The formations are exact same.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't have to change a single thing.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I believe them, but but it's shocking to me because I'm I'm like, for the I'm doing choreographer in quotes.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just when I say the choreographer, I'm doing that in quotes.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: The choreographer had to come in there and pretend as if it was coming to her in the moment or that she came up with these ideas.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, there's that's a lot that that's impressive.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure it's a great talent that you want to have, but but it is impressive.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go back to the the question that uh Leslie had asked Jason, which was when when did I feel like was the right time to come forward?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I held on to this for a very long time because for many, for many reasons, I think I was waiting on the university system to do the right thing.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I was also very aware that it I was trying to be unbiased, but I was very aware it was one of the worst cases of plagiarism I've ever seen.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I also I am not a social media person.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: I do not, I'm I'm not a fan of it.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like getting sucked into it.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: I understand its value and I appreciate its value, but I I'm not the type of person to like go into that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I was very hesitant because I knew that this was gonna bring myself a lot of attention, that I not necessarily, I'm not sure that I really wanted.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know if I really want facts, but I was having a lot of thoughts and a lot of feelings.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And over the course of like two months, like I hadn't let it go yet.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I had decided maybe like four or five days before Jason made his post.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, you know what?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've come to terms that I'm not gonna post this.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna say anything, I'm just gonna let it go.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then Jason posted his, and I was like, no, Jared, you this is you have to post this.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is not okay.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, it is not okay.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: It is not fair to myself, it is not fair to my students, it is not fair to all the other choreographers.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: I got Jason, I'm sure you got messages too from other people saying this has happened to me and I didn't speak up.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: I regret this.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: I got don't not just like random choreographers that I don't know, I got messages from dance convention teachers that said, you know, well-known choreographers that I've said, this happened to me, and I wish I would have said something, but I didn't, you know?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm glad I did that after Jason did it because I hope I hope that this can start being a domino effect of people speaking up.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Along with Jason, I think the last thing that came to me was I had to do it for my students because what it what does it say to my students if I'm not willing to stand up for myself?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then what does it say to my students if I am willing to stand up for myself?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've just, you know, the my circle of students that I'm close with, I've just changed their perspective on this whole thing and I've given them permission to speak up about if they feel like they've been.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter if it's about choreography, it's anything that you've been wronged by, right?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you feel like you've been wronged and you're not getting that validation or that accountability from someone, you have the right to speak up and say, I I was wronged and this is not okay.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it came down to those kids and wanting to be a role model for them, other than just a creator.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I grew up on the Tremaine circuit and Joe Tremaine is someone that I look up to highly, and his motto is dance training, dance training is life training.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we've all heard that motto before.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I live by that too.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted my students to know that that they should speak up if it's safe and wrong.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that was the turning point for me.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_06: That's a wrap on part one of our discussion with Jason Williams and Jared Baker on their experiences with stolen four.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_06: Be sure to stay tuned to hear the rest of their story in part two, their summer bonus episode, releasing Thursday, June 29th.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_06: In the meantime, be sure to follow our guests on social media.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_06: You can find Jason on Instagram at the Jason Williams Experience and Jared at JBak13.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_06: Also, don't forget to subscribe to Making the Impact a Dance Competition Podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to receive our weekly episodes straight to your phone.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_06: Season 5 of Making the Impact is launching on Thursday, September 7th, with all new episodes on hot topics in the competitive dance world.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_06: We hope you're having a fantastic summer, and we will see you next week for part two.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_06: Until then, keep dancing.