Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Timid Honor Student Son, 13, Stabs Mom Dead Sleeping With Infant

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Timid Honor Student Son, 13, Stabs Mom Dead Sleeping With Infant · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greace. A gorgeous young mom fast asleep,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: lying in bed right.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Beside her newborn baby girl is murdered.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: That's bad enough. The mode, the method of operation, the
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: modus opera, and di itself. Even more shocking. The young
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: mom stabbed in the neck.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: That's not all.
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  Speaker 1: Now behind bars her thirteen year old son, honor student
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: described as meek and mild. A young mom dead in bed,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: asleep at the time she stabbed in the neck by
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: her thirteen year old I mean, see, Grace, this is
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories and a serious XEM one eleven.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Let's take a listen to the nine on one call.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: Do you call her neck?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Okay?
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  Speaker 4: Where else did you stop there all the night cutting
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: her neck?
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  Speaker 5: And where is your sister? She's in her grip sleeping.
• 1:33
  Speaker 6: How old is your sister?
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  Speaker 5: She's only like a week old?
• 1:38
  Speaker 7: Okay?
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: And you did not touch her?
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  Speaker 7: Correct?
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  Speaker 5: No, I did not touch you. I didn't want to
• 1:43
  Speaker 5: touch my sister.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: I need to know if your mom is is breathing.
• 1:47
  Speaker 5: She said, Miss I have.
• 1:50
  Speaker 8: The gun with me.
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: I was gonna shoot myself, but I didn't want to.
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: I didn't want to. I pulled back the slide, but
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: I did not see.
• 1:57
  Speaker 6: And more, I need to know that I think we
• 2:00
  Speaker 6: can help your mom, she said, I have more family members.
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: They can take care of my sister. I took pictures
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: and I told my friend about it.
• 2:11
  Speaker 7: Was that bad?
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: Do you talk old about it?
• 2:16
  Speaker 8: My friend?
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: Your friends? And you send pictures to your friends?
• 2:19
  Speaker 7: So what you do?
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah? I didn't really a pictures off my phone, but
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: I sent him to him and I told him that
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: I was sorry, and then I'm okay.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, let me understand this.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker is joining me, senior investigative reporter with dailymail
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: dot Com.
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  Speaker 2: Kaitlin Wait, the.
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  Speaker 1: Thirteen year old honor student son kills mom, stabbing her
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: multiple times in the neck, and then leaves his fourteen
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: day old little sister alive. Takes pictures of his mom
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: dead in the bed and so them to a friend.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Just start at the beginning, Caitlin.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: Becker, Nancy, this case is absolutely baffling. We have no
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: idea what the motive is. This is about eleven thirty
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: at night. The son, as you said, thirteen years old,
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: is awake. Both the baby and mom aer sleep. He
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: goes into bedroom, allegedly stabbed mom to death like sad
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: Lee's the baby untouched, and then he takes the picture
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: send it to someone he barely even knows. I mean,
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: he says the word friend in the nine to one
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: one call, and when the dispatcher asks for a name,
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: he says he doesn't know the friend's actual name. It's
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: just someone that he plays games with online, so not
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: even someone this child is close with. And then he
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: calls nine one one on himself. You could hear in
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: the call that he's clearly distraught. And from everything we
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: know about this kid from friends and family, he's an
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: honor student, well mannered, well behaved. Whyet this appeared to
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: come out of absolutely nowhere? And his baby sister, who
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: is fourteen years old, is a half sister, so his stepfather,
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: who was a truck driver, was out of state working
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: this night, so he wasn't there. And we know the gun,
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: as the child mentioned in that call, belonged to the stepfather.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I want to hear that second sound again, Sidney, if
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: you could play that one more time.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: I need to know that you think we can help
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  Speaker 4: your mom.
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: She did, I have more family members they can take
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: care of my sister. I took pictures and I told
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: my friend about it. Was that bad?
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  Speaker 6: Do you talk old about it?
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  Speaker 3: My friend?
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  Speaker 5: Your friends?
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  Speaker 3: That you send pictures to your friends?
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  Speaker 4: So what you do?
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  Speaker 7: Yeah?
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  Speaker 5: I didn't really the pictures off my phone, but I
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: sent him to him and I told him that I
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: was sorry, and then let's good bye.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: I'm okay, okay, I'm joining me right now.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Is high profile lawyer Jason Ocean, New York based, but
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: really practices all over criminal and civil lawyer Jason Oceans.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Have you ever had one piece of.
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  Speaker 1: Evidence and you have like this nine on one call
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  Speaker 1: and you have to play it over and over because
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: each line proves so much.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Because you have this young perp who.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Has just stabbed his mom in the neck, the little
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  Speaker 1: baby sister just a few days old, lying there with her,
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  Speaker 1: and he says not only that he did it, but
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: he's speaking.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: What can I learn from this nine on one call?
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  Speaker 2: Just the part that I played so far? He is coherent.
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  Speaker 1: He has taken pictures of.
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  Speaker 2: His mother, this is his bio mom.
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  Speaker 1: He's taken pictures of her lying dead with her neck stabbed,
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  Speaker 1: and he has sent them to the friend and he
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: says this one thing.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: This is very important. It's critical. Was that bad? People
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: only say was that bad when they know it's bad?
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Was that wrong? Yeah? It was wrong, Nancy.
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  Speaker 3: He's barely barely thirteen, just twelve, a little bit ago.
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  Speaker 2: So is that what I asked you?
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  Speaker 3: No, you did not ask Okay, you also called him.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: A purple because he murdered his mother.
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  Speaker 3: Right, that's clearly he murdered his mother. There's no question there.
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  Speaker 2: And would you disagree that he is not the perpetrator.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, he is the perpetrator.
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  Speaker 2: So he is in fact the purp, Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Nancy, as we break it down, he is the purp.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Back to the original question in court, I would say
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: something like, as I looked at you glaringly, your honor,
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  Speaker 1: may I refresh the witness's recollection? May I redirect the
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: witness as his answers are unresponsive? And I will ask
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: you again, have you ever had a piece of evidence
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: that the more you looked at it, the more you
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: learned just one sentence, one piece of evidence, that clip
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: from that nine to one, one callback, one part of it.
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  Speaker 3: Well, as a prosecutor, Nancy, you're looking at critically and
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: you see everything inside your case right there to prove it.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: I understand where you're coming from. I do not disagree
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  Speaker 3: with you. You're going to play that over and over
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: in your head. You're going to play it over and over.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: For the jury, You're going to play it over and
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: over again. It's quite just positive. There's not much to it.
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  Speaker 3: It's a slam duck for me as a defense attorney.
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  Speaker 3: Goes beyond to mental health. Uh you know the conference?
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  Speaker 3: Is that wrong? That's not a purpose? Is that wrong?
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  Speaker 3: That's a that's a little boy, that's a troubled despite
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: what the outside looked at. Something snapped, perhaps the birth
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: of the new child, something happened that made him snap.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Well, frankly, unless it's a legal defense, I mean I
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  Speaker 1: see things in uh everything, As you know, Jason, we're
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: longtime colleagues and friends.
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  Speaker 2: Everything to me. Now, once you go through law.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: School and once you try cases for a living, you
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: begin to see the world in a different way. Is
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: it probative, does it prove something? Is it admissible? If
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: it's not admissible, I don't want to.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Hear about it.
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  Speaker 1: I only want to know what I can put in
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  Speaker 1: front of a jury and how I can interpret that,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: and what is it true?
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  Speaker 2: Is it real? Did this happen to? I have the
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: right person?
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  Speaker 1: Why I got to leave that up to a string
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: like doctor James Carborino joining US, who specializes in what
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: causes violence in children, Professor's Psychology Emeritus, Cornell and Loyola
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: University of Chicago.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, author of Listening to Killers.
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  Speaker 1: Lessons learned from twenty years as a psychological expert witness
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  Speaker 1: in murder cases. Okay, I'm reading that, doctor James Garbarino.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that Jason otions is wrong. He's right,
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  Speaker 1: He's right. Does that mean that goes into my analysis
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  Speaker 1: of how I'm going to prove the case? I care
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  Speaker 1: about one thing. Am I getting a true verdict? Am
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I telling the jury the truth? Am I telling the.
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  Speaker 2: Jury the whole truth? And us what I give the
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: jury advance the truth? So all care about who did this? Where? When?
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  Speaker 2: Is it in my jurisdiction?
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  Speaker 1: And is there a legitimate defense such as self defense, insanity, accident?
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  Speaker 1: But doctor James Garbarino, I want you to hear our
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: cut three are friends at crime online dot Com.
• 9:37
  Speaker 9: Derek Rosa is not your typical thirteen year old boy.
• 9:41
  Speaker 9: He's on the honor roll in eighth grade. Neighbors say
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  Speaker 9: he is exceedingly nice and friendly. He is the model
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  Speaker 9: son to his mother and respectful to his stepfather. He
• 9:51
  Speaker 9: has been a big help to his thirty nine year
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  Speaker 9: old mother, Irena Garcia. She just gave birth to a
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  Speaker 9: baby girl a couple of weeks ago. Derek rose Uh
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  Speaker 9: is a good boy.
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  Speaker 2: He is a good boy. Doctor Garmrino helped me.
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  Speaker 8: You know, a lot of the the focus of the
• 10:10
  Speaker 8: criminal justice system is always, as you say, primarily what
• 10:14
  Speaker 8: did they do? Who did it? You know, the kind
• 10:17
  Speaker 8: of work that I've done for the last thirty years
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  Speaker 8: as a psychological expert witness really tries to get at
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  Speaker 8: who they are. I've worked on a number of kids
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  Speaker 8: who killed their parents over the years. You know, a
• 10:31
  Speaker 8: lot of the kids who kill their parents it's called
• 10:33
  Speaker 8: reactive parasites and response to abuse. But I have worked
• 10:37
  Speaker 8: on cases like this that are mysterious at the outset
• 10:40
  Speaker 8: because you know, where does this come from? What does
• 10:43
  Speaker 8: it mean? How do we make sense of it? You know,
• 10:45
  Speaker 8: there are a number of possibilities. It's too early to know.
• 10:49
  Speaker 8: You know, there's a case in Oregon years ago where
• 10:53
  Speaker 8: a boy killed his parents and it turned out he
• 10:56
  Speaker 8: was slipping into schizophrenia, was hearing voices. And you know,
• 10:59
  Speaker 8: the the thing about hearing voices in America is a
• 11:02
  Speaker 8: fascinating study that finds that seventy percent of the voices
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  Speaker 8: that schizophrenics here in America tell them to commit acts
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  Speaker 8: of violence against themselves of others, seventy percent. In India,
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  Speaker 8: it's twenty percent. In Ghana and Africa it's ten percent. So,
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  Speaker 8: you know, we need to know what was his inner life, like,
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  Speaker 8: that's certainly one possibility. I mean, there are other possibilities
• 11:26
  Speaker 8: too that eventually may make sense of this, But it
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  Speaker 8: certainly doesn't sound like this is. You know, there's another
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  Speaker 8: case recently where boy killed his mother because she wouldn't
• 11:36
  Speaker 8: buy him some virtual reality headphones and he was only
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  Speaker 8: you know, he was even younger than this boy nine.
• 11:43
  Speaker 8: I'm a lady was nine, you know, So we have
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  Speaker 8: to try to understand who this is. This doesn't sound
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  Speaker 8: like it's the culmination of an increasingly aggressive, any social
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  Speaker 8: kid who's entitled and maybe narcissistic, maybe even on the
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  Speaker 8: road becoming a psychopath. It doesn't sound like that. It
• 12:03
  Speaker 8: sounds like some very bizarre thing going on in his
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  Speaker 8: head that was kept kept from the adults around him.
• 12:13
  Speaker 8: You know that boy in Oregon years ago, he told
• 12:16
  Speaker 8: no one that he was hearing voices. I worked on
• 12:19
  Speaker 8: another case of a thirteen year old actually in Florida,
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  Speaker 8: who also killed his mother. No history of delinquency or
• 12:27
  Speaker 8: any social behavior. But the more we got to know,
• 12:30
  Speaker 8: the more we saw there was something going on in
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  Speaker 8: his head that again was telling him to do this
• 12:36
  Speaker 8: in a way that for a young kid is it
• 12:38
  Speaker 8: can be very powerful. You know, the part of the
• 12:41
  Speaker 8: brain that controls how intense kids feel things, how intense
• 12:45
  Speaker 8: people feel things, nucleus at Cumba's it peaks at age fifteen,
• 12:50
  Speaker 8: fourteen fifteen, so he's right in the period when everything
• 12:54
  Speaker 8: feels more intense. You know the role of this internet
• 12:58
  Speaker 8: friend and connection, I mean that's contaminating in another way.
• 13:02
  Speaker 8: So we're just at the beginning of making sense of this.
• 13:05
  Speaker 8: But I think eventually we will find a way to
• 13:08
  Speaker 8: make sense of that.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace, I keep going over and
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: over the evidence, like I'm trying to solve a Rubik's cube.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Joining me.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: A longtime friend and colleague, Master Sergeant Ron Livingston with
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: the Florida highway patrol, thirty plus years in law enforcement. Ron,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to hour cut
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: twelve more than nine on one call. And the reason
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I keep playing that is because it's very hard for
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: me to look at this kid.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: And he is a kid, as.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Jason Ocean's accurately pointed out, and his whole past behavior
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: is completely completely opposite of that one act of murder.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: But listen to this nine on one call, Ron Livingston,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: I need to know if your.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Mom is breathing.
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  Speaker 5: Right all over the floor.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, why did you.
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: Kill your mom?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: I need to know.
• 14:20
  Speaker 6: Do you think we can help your mom?
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: She could bring.
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: Over here where I live.
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: What did you addreve Yes.
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: I took pictures and I told my friends about it
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: with that bag.
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: You talk old about it my friend, your friends, and
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: you send pictures to your friends the what you did? Yeah,
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: do not open until I tell you to open the door,
• 14:48
  Speaker 6: and to make sure that you have nothing but yoursel phone.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: In your hands.
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: They're gonna tell me, no, they're not gonna kill you.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: We're here to help you.
• 14:57
  Speaker 6: Okay, We're gonna help your family.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, Okay to masters Sergeant Ron Livingston, Ron, if this
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: were an adult, I'm would be arguing right now. How
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: clearly he knows exactly what's going on. He has not
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: had a psychotic break. He is not insane. He knows
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: cops are coming, and he says, are they gonna kill me?
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: She says, do you have anything in your hands? He goes,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I've got a cell phone. Do you have anything else? No,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: are they gonna kill me? He knows exactly what's gonna happen.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: If cops come to the scene and he's got a
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: gun in his hands, they're.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Gonna kill him.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: So there's no way he's gonna be able to argue
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: any kind of insanity. Ron Livingston, have you ever seen
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: anything like this or even closely akin to this?
• 15:42
  Speaker 7: You know, we're seeing this over and over and you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 7: with with social media, with you know, with kids, they're
• 15:50
  Speaker 7: so focused on you know, social media, and you know
• 15:55
  Speaker 7: they watch all the bad things that that happen out here,
• 15:58
  Speaker 7: and so you know, the media has portrayed law enforcement,
• 16:04
  Speaker 7: you know, to be bad, which you know we're not.
• 16:07
  Speaker 7: We're there to help you, We're there to help everybody.
• 16:10
  Speaker 7: And so I think that's been the biggest you know,
• 16:15
  Speaker 7: as far as the portraying media and stuff as far
• 16:18
  Speaker 7: as law enforcement, so I would assume that's where he's
• 16:21
  Speaker 7: getting this. The law enforcement's going to kill me and
• 16:25
  Speaker 7: we're not. We're there to help preserve the scene to
• 16:29
  Speaker 7: start the investigation. Obviously we have to take make sure
• 16:32
  Speaker 7: the threat is under control in law enforcement. There is
• 16:36
  Speaker 7: no threat to law enforcement once.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: They arrived to Dutor Tim Gallagher joining me.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: We're now a medical examiner of the State of Florida,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: lecturer University of Florida Medical School in the Forensic Medicine Division,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Doctor Gallagher,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: this happened in your jurisdiction. This isn't Highaliah. Could you
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: explain to me. Is there any way that this new
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: mother his mother. She's got a little baby girl fourteen
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: days old, and she's sleeping in the room with the baby.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Is there any way that the mother didn't feel what
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: happened to her. She was asleep when she was attacked.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I don't see away, but is there a way?
• 17:22
  Speaker 10: Most likely not, you know, unless she was asleep under
• 17:25
  Speaker 10: the influence of some substance. But when people get stabbed
• 17:30
  Speaker 10: and they are sober, they feel every second of it.
• 17:35
  Speaker 10: You know, you don't die from the stabbing, you actually
• 17:38
  Speaker 10: die from bleeding to death, so that takes quite a while,
• 17:42
  Speaker 10: and in that time you were very, very aware of
• 17:46
  Speaker 10: what's happening, to the pain, your surroundings, who is doing
• 17:50
  Speaker 10: it to you, And that can go on for several
• 17:53
  Speaker 10: minutes before you finally sanguinate.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: Or bleed to death.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: So yes, if she was.
• 17:58
  Speaker 10: Not on the influence of anything that was putting her asleep,
• 18:01
  Speaker 10: she felt every second of it, knew what was happening,
• 18:04
  Speaker 10: and felt her life slipping away from her.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Nancy, Can I just is that Caitlin?
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wanted to jump in out.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: A little place to bring.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: Detail to that that he There were some local reports
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: that while we know that she was stabbed in the bed,
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: her body was discovered on the floor. So I don't
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: know if she had rolled off the bed, or had
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: tried to climb out of the bed, or if they're
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: going to be defensive wounds, but the body was found
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: on the floor, so that indicates to me that she
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: moved in some way, shape or form before ultimately exguinating, And.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: That adds to what that supports what you're saying, Doctor
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher that she knew very well what was happening
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: and was trying to either get away or protect her baby.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know what she was doing, but she did
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: get out of bed. What do you make of that,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: doctor Gallagher?
• 18:52
  Speaker 10: Well, if you think about the emotional state that she
• 18:54
  Speaker 10: was in, you know, she just had this baby, so
• 18:56
  Speaker 10: she's in the mother bear mode. You know, she really
• 18:58
  Speaker 10: wants to protect the baby. Yet she's being attacked by
• 19:01
  Speaker 10: her son, who she's also there to protect because he's
• 19:04
  Speaker 10: really not of age to do that for himself. You know,
• 19:07
  Speaker 10: So she was probably torn between those two circumstances in
• 19:11
  Speaker 10: a very unusual and very critical time of her life
• 19:16
  Speaker 10: there and just I could see the confusion. I could see,
• 19:20
  Speaker 10: you know why she was thinking, why is this happening
• 19:22
  Speaker 10: to me? You know what is going on? And just
• 19:25
  Speaker 10: a very very confusing point. And I'd like to know
• 19:28
  Speaker 10: if she did have any defensive wounds on her But
• 19:34
  Speaker 10: just a crazy, crazy situation, just very very unusual. You've
• 19:38
  Speaker 10: really found a good case here, Nancy.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: We know that she was lying on the floor next
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: to the baby's crib. I wonder if she was trying
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: to make her way to the baby.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: I would hope.
• 19:50
  Speaker 10: So yeah, I would certainly hope.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: So oh gosh, guys, we are talking about a thirteen
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: year old boy, dearic Rosa, who was now charged with
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: first degree murder in the stabbing death of his own
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: mother lying right next to her, his fourteen day old
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: little sister, Caitlin Becker joining US dailymail dot Com. Caitlin,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: how many times was the mother stamped?
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: I don't know the exact number, Nancy, but a duo
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: that it was multiple times. It was a very bloody
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: scene and it was specifically in that sort of neck
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: and upper region.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: To Jason oshan is joining US, high profile lawyer out
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: of New York and New Jersey. You know he is
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: going to be charged as an adult. There's really no choice.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: What do you make of it?
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: No disagreement, Nancy. I mean, you know, when you have
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: the direct evidence, as you do as a prosecutor here,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: you're pretty limited in your defense. I think the approach,
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Nancy is, you know, some sort of a free and
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: hopefully you're getting him, you know, mental health assistance because
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: as the doctor is going to get something snapped.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: You do know, Jason Oshins, we have discussed many many
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: times snapped is not a defense. There's no such thing
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: as I snapped, or everybody in the full accounty, Gail,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: what say I snapped and that I'll all be walking.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Out right now.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: It may be snapping and saying it at the same
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: time out, but for Layman's terms, we understand what that is.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Jury would understand that it's not a defense. It's just
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: discovering the underneath motive, which background doesn't consistently doesn't in
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: any way you know, fit the violence of the act.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: It just doesn't, Nancy, you and I both know that.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: And so in this case, as you're dealing with an
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: almost a barely thirteen year old just a couple of
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: weeks ago, as twelve, you're constrained in thinking that this
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: young man should spend the rest of his life in prison.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: It's not death penalty eligible, Supreme Court.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I'm not thinking anything right now.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: The duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice for
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: the state, and the state represents the victim. The crime
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: victim I'm victim in this case is Arena Garcia, just
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: thirty nine years old when she was brutally murdered, stabbed
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: multiple times as she lying next to her fourteen day
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: old baby.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Girl. That's the interest that I have.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: I also care about what if anything went wrong with
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: this young boy, he is going to be charged as
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: an adult as he should be. And yes, I have
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: tried a thirteen year old for murder. In that case,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: the thirteen year old six foot three or four broke
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: into a pawn shop, well crashed into a pawn shop,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: murdered one left, another in a wheelchair, and a third shot,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I believe, with a colostomy bag over a handful of
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: dope ropes, which is dick gold chains. Is this doctor Garbarino,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: please jump in, Doctor Garbarino.
• 22:58
  Speaker 8: Thank you. You know, I think, having worked on a
• 23:01
  Speaker 8: number of these juvenile cases over the year, in quite
• 23:04
  Speaker 8: a number, I always think that we need to figure
• 23:08
  Speaker 8: out which group they're in to start with. There is
• 23:11
  Speaker 8: a group even at thirteen, as you point out, who
• 23:15
  Speaker 8: are so damaged that they know it's going to take
• 23:18
  Speaker 8: at least twenty years for them to recover. They need
• 23:21
  Speaker 8: to get to age twenty five, and we can presume
• 23:24
  Speaker 8: a mature brain, and then they need at least ten
• 23:26
  Speaker 8: years to use that mature brain to transform themselves and
• 23:30
  Speaker 8: rehabilitate and educate and all the rest of that and
• 23:33
  Speaker 8: the evidence is actually pretty good that they can get better,
• 23:37
  Speaker 8: most of them do. That's really what's come out of
• 23:39
  Speaker 8: the Milli versus Alabama decision about not sending juveniles to
• 23:45
  Speaker 8: life without parole. That's one group.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can no longer send a juvenile to life
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: without parole, just like you cannot get a sentence of
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: death penalty on a juvenile right.
• 23:55
  Speaker 8: The second group are kids who have basically been intact
• 23:59
  Speaker 8: and childhood, but they have a kind of adolescent crisis.
• 24:03
  Speaker 8: It's often it's the onset of schizophrenia, it's a drug
• 24:07
  Speaker 8: related thing, it's a you know, influence of negative peers,
• 24:13
  Speaker 8: a variety of things. The good news about them is
• 24:16
  Speaker 8: most of them actually could be dealt with as a juvenile,
• 24:19
  Speaker 8: setting aside the severity of the crime, which may preclude
• 24:22
  Speaker 8: that for political and moral and legal issues. But they
• 24:26
  Speaker 8: typically you know, a guy once said to me in prison,
• 24:30
  Speaker 8: how can I get how can I be rehabilitated if
• 24:33
  Speaker 8: I was never habilitated in the first place, And that's
• 24:36
  Speaker 8: an important point. It sounds like this boy was abilitated,
• 24:39
  Speaker 8: so this is a crisis that we need to understand
• 24:42
  Speaker 8: what's brought on the crisis. And he could be restored.
• 24:45
  Speaker 8: There is a third group. It's a much smaller group.
• 24:47
  Speaker 8: Who are you know, as a Supreme Court said, irreparably corrupt.
• 24:51
  Speaker 8: These are the kids who are simply on their way
• 24:53
  Speaker 8: to becoming full blown psychopaths. And you know, I've worked
• 24:57
  Speaker 8: enough cases too where it's not a matter of them
• 25:01
  Speaker 8: getting better. It's not so much a matter of a crisis.
• 25:04
  Speaker 8: It's a matter of something so profoundly wrong with them
• 25:07
  Speaker 8: that it would take a miracle to you know, to
• 25:10
  Speaker 8: transform that. So that's why I say we need to
• 25:12
  Speaker 8: understand who this is. I understand as a prosecutor, and
• 25:15
  Speaker 8: I sit across from a lot of prosecutors. You know,
• 25:18
  Speaker 8: one prosecutor in Florida said to me, I lived with
• 25:20
  Speaker 8: the stench of death, and I understand that mentality. But
• 25:24
  Speaker 8: you know, the interest of the state here should also
• 25:27
  Speaker 8: be taking care of this boy.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Well I've got a question for you, doctor Garbarina. Who
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: could the birth of the little.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Baby sister have been some sort of a triggering event
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: for him?
• 25:38
  Speaker 8: Well, certainly could have been. You know, it seems to
• 25:40
  Speaker 8: have happened in such close time proximity. You know, as
• 25:44
  Speaker 8: I understand that he was the only child before. Who
• 25:48
  Speaker 8: knows what this meant to him? You know, it's it's
• 25:51
  Speaker 8: the result of a stepfather in pregnant hitting his mother.
• 25:54
  Speaker 8: Who knows what that meant to him? Because from a
• 25:57
  Speaker 8: child's point of view, regardless of how good the relationship
• 26:01
  Speaker 8: is with the stepfather, he is an intruder in a sense.
• 26:04
  Speaker 8: So you know, we have to understand what this meant
• 26:07
  Speaker 8: to him, because you know, there, I think there's no
• 26:09
  Speaker 8: such thing as senseless act of violence. It always makes sense,
• 26:13
  Speaker 8: you know, if we get inside the head of the
• 26:15
  Speaker 8: perpetrator enough, it makes sense. We may not accept it,
• 26:19
  Speaker 8: we may not appreciate it, but we have to get there.
• 26:23
  Speaker 8: And I think, you know, I've had some good experiences
• 26:25
  Speaker 8: even in Florida, where prosecutors have understood this, and so
• 26:29
  Speaker 8: they they're willing to take a plea that involves taking
• 26:33
  Speaker 8: care of this troubled boy.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I want you to hear something else. Dottor Garborno
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: and everyone on the panel. Listen to the boys behavior. Afterwards,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: take a listen to hour cut seven from our friends
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: at crime online dot Com.
• 26:50
  Speaker 9: Neighbors in Hi Leah, Florida, shot footage as police showed
• 26:53
  Speaker 9: up to arrest a killer. The scene filmed by a
• 26:56
  Speaker 9: neighbor and post it online. Is not a crazed maniac.
• 27:00
  Speaker 9: This murderer is a thirteen year old honor student. The
• 27:02
  Speaker 9: boy is standing timidly on the balcony of his apartment
• 27:05
  Speaker 9: as he is on the phone with nine to one one.
• 27:08
  Speaker 9: The boy called to confess, and now the nine one
• 27:10
  Speaker 9: one operator is giving him instructions. The boy follows the instructions,
• 27:13
  Speaker 9: putting his hands up in the air and obeying the
• 27:16
  Speaker 9: police directly in front of him. When the police finally
• 27:18
  Speaker 9: get close enough, they take Derek Rosa to the ground hard.
• 27:22
  Speaker 9: He's put in handcuffs and taken away to.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker joining us seeing investigative reporter dailymail dot com.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: He clearly is following instructions. He understands what's happening. He
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: is not out of his mind. He's not having a
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: psychotic break. All that is actually going to work against
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: him at trial because he clearly knows what's going on
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: and he knows what he did was wrong.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: Caitlin, you hear that sadness and that remorse in the call.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: You can hear him getting choked up and being overwhelmed
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: by his alleged actions. I do think that will work
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: against him at trial. But Nancy on the flip stop.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: At one point, the dispatcher asks him his address. He
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: doesn't know his address. I feel like a defense attorney's
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: going to say this thirteen year old boy who is
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: barely even thirteen, who didn't even know where he lived,
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: didn't understand the magnitude of his actions. Maybe until after
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: it was it was done.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: I think that a jury might look at the nine
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: one one call and hear this broken little boy calling
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: and you know, talking to the dispatcher and responding to
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: her no miss, yes, miss, and being polite and sort
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: of trying to rectify that version of the child who's
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: on the phone. With the brutality of the murder. I
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: think it's going to be.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Tough to Jason Otionans, a veteran child lawyer, and I'm
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: going to quote verbade him the law. One may immediately
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: regret the date, but that regret does not negate intent
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: at the time of the act. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: there's premeditation here. He has to creep into the mother's
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: room while she lay sleeping. He waits until the moment
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: she is asleep in the dark of the night. He
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: goes in with a knife. He goes into the mother's
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: bedroom with a knife. There are multiple stabs. Premeditation can
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: be formed in the twinkling of a moment, so between
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: each stab is another period in which premeditation can be formed.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: That's what premeditation means. Now, it may not mean that
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to a lay person on the street, but the jury,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: if there is one, will be instructed that. That is
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: what premeditation means. It's not a long drawn out scheme
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: such as someone poisoning the victim over a period of
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: months or even years. It can be formed in an instant,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: So he has premeditation. He knows what he is doing
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: is wrong. What about that?
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: And NaN's I'm not going to disagree with you in
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: any of your approach and your prosecutorial position. You've explained it, well,
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: you've articulated it. You're going to go ahead. The only
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: thing I would say, relative to being counsel for the defendings,
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: don't over prosecute because he's notwithstanding all of your case,
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: he's still sympathetic at barely thirty.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Yes he is, he is too.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Master's Argeant Ron Livingston joining us out of this jurisdiction
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: in Florida. Are juvenals this age housed in an adult
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: jail facility, No.
• 30:41
  Speaker 7: Ma'am, they will be housed in a juvenile detention facility
• 30:48
  Speaker 7: in the state of Florida. We're not allowed. Juveniles are
• 30:51
  Speaker 7: not allowed to be in a jail with adults longer
• 30:54
  Speaker 7: than six hours. So process, what's their process? They're taken
• 30:58
  Speaker 7: out in turns over the Department of Juvenile Justice in.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: The last hours.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: This young man, thirteen year old Derreck Rosa, has pled
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: not guilty in a court of law. And you may
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: be very surprised at what happens in court. Taking us
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: our cut a, it's.
• 31:17
  Speaker 8: Very unfortunate that this tragedy occurred. But this child is
• 31:21
  Speaker 8: very humble, very peaceful.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Now you are hearing his father, his biological father, mister Rossa,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: in court. He describes his son as humble and peaceful
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: and more.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Take us now, our cut be is in brother.
• 31:40
  Speaker 8: It's hard for us to explain how this occurred.
• 31:45
  Speaker 6: You know, it's it's difficult, but I guess what we're
• 31:48
  Speaker 6: asking for is to another opportunity. It's second chance to
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: help him grow and become a choice of grow mad,
• 31:54
  Speaker 6: to to put this behind him and say we have
• 31:59
  Speaker 6: your We're here to support you.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker are joining us on a dailymail dot com.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: What happened in court or it.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: Was really emotional. Not only was it the young boy's
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: father was also his grandmother. They spent some twenty letters
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: of support trying to.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Get him a little bit of.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: Leniency, and in court when the charges were upgraded to
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: first degree murder and he was charged as an adult,
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: he was taken out of the juvenile facility and remanded
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: into an adult facility. I don't know how long he
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: stayed there or if he's still there, but his attorney
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: in court, attorney Kristin Renoso, had plans to request what's
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: called in Arthur hearing to try to secure him bond,
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: even though it's not a bond offul offense. And she
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: also requested in court that her client be returned to
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: juvenile custody, but that is something the judge said that
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: they would have to determine at a later date and
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: they were going to review all of that. So I
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: do know he was taken into an adult facility. I
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: don't know how long he would have remained, but he's
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: going to stay in custody until his next hearing, which
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: at this point isn't until February.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Back to a Master's Sergeant Ron Livingston, it's confusing when
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: you hear the verbiage that we just heard from Caitlin Becker,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: and everything she said is correct. The judge has to
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: determine the exact age of the defendant and that has
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: to be weighed against the charges. But this juvenile will
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: be housed separately from adults. He will not be in
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: general population, he will not have an adult roommate. None
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: of that's happening. He is being taken to an adult
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: facility until it's sorted out where he should be because
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: he's charged with murder one. But in the state of
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Florida and across the country, juveniles are not put in
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: sales or amongst grown men.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: That is not happening. Please confirm that, because ma'am.
• 33:58
  Speaker 7: They cannot be an eyesight, nor can they speak or
• 34:01
  Speaker 7: talk to any any adults. You know, typically, and in
• 34:05
  Speaker 7: this case might be a little different, I mean, the
• 34:07
  Speaker 7: judge could actually overrule it. But typically the law en
• 34:14
  Speaker 7: Florida is is that juvenile does not stay in the
• 34:16
  Speaker 7: in in an adult jail for longer than a process
• 34:21
  Speaker 7: and then they're removed. Now Miami day, they might have
• 34:25
  Speaker 7: a you know, a section that's completely segregated from the
• 34:29
  Speaker 7: adults to where they put him and house him, to
• 34:31
  Speaker 7: where he is not in view contact, can't speak to
• 34:35
  Speaker 7: any adults. That's that's very strictly prohibited.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, guys, I want you to also hear more of
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: this young man's father, mister Rossa in court.
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: Listen, Derek's mother recently had a child and she was
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: overwhelmed with a lot of the work.
• 34:51
  Speaker 6: Is not taking away anything from what occurred.
• 34:54
  Speaker 8: And I wish he could bring, you know to guess
• 34:58
  Speaker 8: before that occurred.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: To doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the State of
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Florida and the founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Investigation Conference, Doctor Gallagher, I want to go through we
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: keep talking about the boy. What happened to the boy?
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: The boys an honor student, He had always been timid,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: he was great son, very respectful, on and on and on.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about the mother. The new mother.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Tell me what she went through as her life ebbed
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: away from her and she tried valiantly to get over
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: to the crib where her fourteen day old daughter.
• 35:41
  Speaker 10: Was sleeping well, Nancy, I mean, she's in a very
• 35:44
  Speaker 10: very difficult position. As we discussed before, she is in
• 35:49
  Speaker 10: fight or flight mode. Now she doesn't know whether to
• 35:51
  Speaker 10: run and save her life or to run back to
• 35:55
  Speaker 10: her crib and protect her newborn baby. So she is
• 35:58
  Speaker 10: going to be in the present of the sun with
• 36:02
  Speaker 10: the knife, you.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: Know, for as long as it takes.
• 36:05
  Speaker 10: She's probably already received a fatal wound. She is bleeding,
• 36:09
  Speaker 10: She's actively bleeding to death at this point, and she
• 36:12
  Speaker 10: has a decision to make, you know, do I sacrifice
• 36:15
  Speaker 10: my life for the safety of my newborn do I
• 36:20
  Speaker 10: run and try to save myself, you know, by going
• 36:22
  Speaker 10: out the door and exiting the situation. All this time,
• 36:27
  Speaker 10: she is getting weaker, She is getting weaker, and the
• 36:31
  Speaker 10: ability for her to reason is becoming less as the
• 36:34
  Speaker 10: as less amount of blood can reach her brain and
• 36:36
  Speaker 10: affect her reasoning center. So she is in a very
• 36:40
  Speaker 10: difficult position in it. And it looked like ultimately she
• 36:44
  Speaker 10: chose to protect her baby because that's approximately where she
• 36:48
  Speaker 10: was found when she was deceased.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: So very very difficult situation.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Donnan Gallagher, And I've done this myself in the case
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: of my fiance being murdered.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: I like it to myself.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Well, he didn't feel it, he didn't suffer because he
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: was shot so many times in the face and the neck,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: in the head. But you know what, doctor Gallagher, that's
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: probably not true because people that have survived gunshot wounds,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: some of them have said I didn't even realize I
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: was hit. Others say how much it hurt. Stab wounds
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: have got to be just incredibly painful. I think she
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: really suffered. And she got out of the bed and
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: tried to get to the baby's crib. She knew she
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: was bleeding, she knew she had been stabbed. She probably
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: knew who had stabbed her as she was dying. I
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: have no doubt in my mind she suffered.
• 37:44
  Speaker 10: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. People who get shot in the
• 37:47
  Speaker 10: bed don't even wake up, you know, they are found
• 37:51
  Speaker 10: exactly where they were sleeping. But people who get stabbed
• 37:54
  Speaker 10: wake up. They feel the pain, and they wake up
• 37:57
  Speaker 10: and they tried to defend themselves. And this is the
• 38:00
  Speaker 10: case here, and that's the result of knowing what's going on,
• 38:03
  Speaker 10: of feeling the pain. Yes, they were suffering.
• 38:05
  Speaker 8: I'm sorry, Nancy, this is Jim Garbarino again. You know,
• 38:08
  Speaker 8: I think we haven't talked about, you know, obviously a
• 38:11
  Speaker 8: lot of things here. One being you know, was committing
• 38:16
  Speaker 8: this crime may have put him in a what's called
• 38:18
  Speaker 8: a dissociate of a state that just in disconnected, and
• 38:22
  Speaker 8: that may be reflected in his call. But the other
• 38:24
  Speaker 8: thing is he talks about having a gun and not
• 38:27
  Speaker 8: using it on himself, which suggests that he chose the
• 38:31
  Speaker 8: knife over the gun because he had access to both,
• 38:34
  Speaker 8: and that I think may end up being significant and
• 38:37
  Speaker 8: understanding the crime, because as you well know, stabbing is
• 38:41
  Speaker 8: a very different internal process often than shooting. And it
• 38:46
  Speaker 8: really again suggests to me that there's something we don't
• 38:49
  Speaker 8: know yet that's really deep and big and dark inside
• 38:53
  Speaker 8: him that led to this particular form of attack. And
• 38:58
  Speaker 8: again I think we just got to understand this because
• 39:02
  Speaker 8: it's not like it's not like a lot of other
• 39:05
  Speaker 8: murders that juvenile has committed. And I just hope the
• 39:09
  Speaker 8: system will be able to find a way to understand
• 39:12
  Speaker 8: that make sense of it. And I think, as I said,
• 39:15
  Speaker 8: this gun versus knife issue may be a clue to
• 39:19
  Speaker 8: what was going on.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: We wait as just as some points goodbye for that