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From the archives: Occupational Therapy & Early Psychosis with Tracy Morgan-Queen · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Are today we even another episode from the archives with
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Speaker 1: one of my incredible guests. Enjoy Welcome to the Trauma
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Speaker 1: Everists podcast, a show about the incredible people dedicated to
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Speaker 1: helping those of experienced trauma. My name is Goy Macpherson
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Speaker 1: and my mission is to raise awareness of trauma and
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Speaker 1: to inspire each of us to help those around us.
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Speaker 1: All right, guys, welcome back to the Trauma Thepist podcast.
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Speaker 1: Got Macpherson here and I am very excited. That was
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Speaker 1: my guest today, Tracy Morgan. Tracy welcome, Hi, Hi, hi
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Speaker 1: to be here.
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Speaker 2: Thank you. So.
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Speaker 3: Tracy is an occupational therapist with fifteen years of experience,
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Speaker 3: practicing for the last ten in early intervention in psychosis
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Speaker 3: in the UK Midlands. Tracy's experienced fairly significant trauma herself.
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Speaker 3: Now she works with young people experiencing first episode psychosis
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Speaker 3: and she found that after the neurological psychosymptoms are in remission, uh,
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Speaker 3: she's left with residual trauma voices quote unquote with what
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Speaker 3: she uses uh in the in the subsequent treatment. And
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Speaker 3: we'll get to that now. Tracy, I'm really excited you're
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Speaker 3: on because you know, early psychosis has been one of
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Speaker 3: my interests in specializations and actually you're the first person
1:22
Speaker 3: that have brought on specifically who focuses on that. And
1:26
Speaker 3: we know that there's a lot of UH correlation with trauma,
1:31
Speaker 3: but we'll dive into that anyway, So thank you again
1:34
Speaker 3: for being here. Share with our listeners where you're from
1:39
Speaker 3: and where you're calling from and we'll.
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Speaker 2: Dive in right. Well, I'm based in the UK obviously,
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Speaker 2: and I'm in the Midlands, which is very close to Birmingham,
1:49
Speaker 2: sort of Nottingham Leicester area. I'm sort of in Warwickshire,
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Speaker 2: where Shakespeare's from. I'm originally from Scotland, That's why I've
1:58
Speaker 2: got a strange accent. But I've lived here for twenty
2:02
Speaker 2: siven years, yes, twenty seven years. So yes, that's what
2:06
Speaker 2: I'm at the moment.
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Speaker 3: So given the fact that I mean, I want to
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Speaker 3: address this because it's front and center here, given the
2:13
Speaker 3: fact that we're in the heart of COVID nineteen that's
2:17
Speaker 3: going on here, how is that impacting you and your area?
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Speaker 2: It's absolutely. Mental health services have had to reconfigure everything
2:29
Speaker 2: that they're doing. I'm currently off sick from work, not
2:34
Speaker 2: because of COVID for a whole other reason. But I
2:38
Speaker 2: was actually in a team meeting yesterday and everything's been reconfigured,
2:43
Speaker 2: and it's been reconfigured on a daily basis. We're trying
2:47
Speaker 2: to minimize face to face treatment with people unless it's
2:53
Speaker 2: an absolute emergency, and you know, we're doing everything. We're
2:58
Speaker 2: being really use this sort of thing. Let's use Microsoft teams,
3:02
Speaker 2: let's use Skype, let's use WhatsApp. And I'm thrilled about that.
3:06
Speaker 2: So I've been trying to do it for the last
3:08
Speaker 2: ten years, so we're getting more innovative as time goes on.
3:14
Speaker 2: My concern is that, first of all, I think we're
3:18
Speaker 2: going to reduce the feeling of illness of those who
3:24
Speaker 2: have had very severe anxiety because the whole world suddenly
3:28
Speaker 2: is in the same boat. I don't know whether that's
3:31
Speaker 2: going to make as a society more compassionate towards that.
3:39
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, I've got a lot of people saying to me,
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Speaker 2: I'm so anxious, I'm relapsing, I'm becoming unwell, and it's like, no, no,
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Speaker 2: you're the same, You're the same. This is an illness.
3:52
Speaker 2: This is a world wide feeling of we don't know
3:56
Speaker 2: what's happening. We don't know what's going to happen, and
4:00
Speaker 2: that uncertainty makes everyone anxious. So it's the normalization of that.
4:07
Speaker 2: But obviously this is going to be a massive, huge
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Speaker 2: amount of trauma for everyone because the loss we're going
4:13
Speaker 2: to have loss.
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Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, that's a really good point about the
4:20
Speaker 3: mental health aspect globally and how that's what that's going
4:25
Speaker 3: to look like for those of us who have mental
4:27
Speaker 3: health challenges. You know, will people it is an opportunity,
4:31
Speaker 3: certainly for many people to be compassionate about those of
4:36
Speaker 3: us who are experiencing mental health challenges.
4:38
Speaker 4: Absolutely, so go ahead, I'm sorry. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: The really interesting thing is that with staff, and I
4:47
Speaker 2: mean at the moment, I've actually put on the UK
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Speaker 2: Healthcare Facebook page, i actually put out a call saying
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Speaker 2: I'm currently away from my workplace because of a nother illness.
5:00
Speaker 2: If anybody needs to talk that's working in healthcare, that
5:03
Speaker 2: just needs to vent. I've actually put myself out there
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Speaker 2: and people are contacting me and it's just the most
5:10
Speaker 2: basic things that people were not very good at containing anxiety.
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Speaker 2: And it's those little hints and tricks and things that
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Speaker 2: we teach our patients how to manage their anxiety and
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Speaker 2: their emotions. Suddenly it's like we're teaching everybody that, which
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Speaker 2: is an amazing opportunity, but it's everybody kind of needs
5:29
Speaker 2: it at the same time.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, So how did you get into this topic of
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Speaker 3: release that.
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Speaker 2: Causes I actually accidentally came into it because I was
5:42
Speaker 2: redeployed from inpatient I was the occupational therapist and an
5:46
Speaker 2: inpatient unit, I was the only occupational therapist and they
5:50
Speaker 2: were closing that unit down and functionalizing, and they were
5:54
Speaker 2: basically centralizing mental health in patient beds, and I had
5:58
Speaker 2: choices of where I been redeployed to. I was very
6:02
Speaker 2: very blessed ten years ago for that to have happened,
6:05
Speaker 2: and I chose. I didn't think I wanted to do it,
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Speaker 2: but I chose to go and work in early intervention
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Speaker 2: in psychosis. I thought I would hate it, but actually
6:18
Speaker 2: I'm still there and it's ten years later, and it's
6:22
Speaker 2: amazing how how much you grow with the research because
6:26
Speaker 2: it's very cutting edge. Even here, it's you know, we're
6:30
Speaker 2: right on the edge of what's being discovered.
6:32
Speaker 3: So let's kind of start with you kind of giving
6:36
Speaker 3: us giving our listeners a snapshot of what an occupational
6:39
Speaker 3: therapist is because before you know, I'd been working at
6:43
Speaker 3: a clinic for five years where we had a multidisciplinary
6:46
Speaker 3: team and there were occupational therapists. Before I got there,
6:49
Speaker 3: I didn't know what the heck they did and really
6:53
Speaker 3: came to appreciate and value and really expect that not
7:01
Speaker 3: only the job you folks do, but how vital it
7:05
Speaker 3: is for that population of people who are experiencing those symptoms.
7:09
Speaker 3: So what does an occupational therapist do?
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Speaker 2: Right? I think the best way to do everything superheroes. No,
7:18
Speaker 2: we're not. I have been known to say in a
7:20
Speaker 2: team meeting when a consultant has said, Tracy, can you
7:23
Speaker 2: do this patient? I'll say, you do realize I'm not Jesus.
7:26
Speaker 2: I have said that, not that it's one of those jokes.
7:30
Speaker 2: I what I tend to do in the in the
7:34
Speaker 2: role that I have now is that I will I
7:38
Speaker 2: take a lead on vocation. I take a lead on
7:41
Speaker 2: getting people back to their workplace as quickly as possible,
7:45
Speaker 2: negotiating using employment law to make sure that they're going
7:49
Speaker 2: back to a supported environment, to actually make sure that
7:52
Speaker 2: their employers don't try and use constructive dismissal. And we're
8:00
Speaker 2: getting great results from that. Most people are going back
8:02
Speaker 2: into the workplace, into their original workplaces, which is fantastic.
8:08
Speaker 2: Also educational settings making sure that because our age range
8:13
Speaker 2: is between fourteen and sort of thirty five and to
8:17
Speaker 2: retirement age, but I tend to sort of stick with
8:19
Speaker 2: the working age and to get them into education, make
8:23
Speaker 2: sure they're supported in further education universities. And it's very
8:28
Speaker 2: much what can we do to adapt the real environments
8:32
Speaker 2: that these people are working in. I use sensory approaches.
8:38
Speaker 2: I'm really big on sensory basically putting sensory sensory adaptations
8:45
Speaker 2: to a very normal environment. So I've had a young
8:48
Speaker 2: man who was behaving so bizarrely. They had them fifth
8:52
Speaker 2: episode psychosis, and his behavior was horrific and Friday night,
8:57
Speaker 2: five past five, if he would be up any and
9:00
Speaker 2: because he knew I wasn't around to catch it, he'd
9:02
Speaker 2: get himself admitted to the hospitals. They would rapidly tranquilize them.
9:07
Speaker 2: They were constantly restraining in And I remember one Monday
9:11
Speaker 2: morning after being on a course and Cardiff on sensory integration,
9:14
Speaker 2: and I went, oh, he's seeking containment with deep pressure.
9:19
Speaker 2: So we basically put dark curtains in his rooms. We
9:24
Speaker 2: gave him heavy well, he bought a heavy doo. They
9:27
Speaker 2: like an eider dout really heavy. We started getting them
9:31
Speaker 2: to wear boxing compression vest, you know, for that sports
9:33
Speaker 2: people were and he started to feel contained and the
9:37
Speaker 2: deep pressure. It's things like that. It's finding those ways
9:41
Speaker 2: round a normal environment to make it easier, to reduce
9:46
Speaker 2: anxiety and stress and to make things easier so that
9:49
Speaker 2: people can do what they value and what they have
9:52
Speaker 2: to do to have quality of life.
9:55
Speaker 4: And that.
9:57
Speaker 3: Is such a crew element really for anyone. I mean
10:03
Speaker 3: oftentimes when we're talking about trauma and PTSD and veterans,
10:06
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of talk about getting them back,
10:10
Speaker 3: finding a purpose right, getting them back to what they've
10:12
Speaker 3: been doing, because a lot of times with people who've
10:15
Speaker 3: been experiencing earlier psycho since even first episode, there's a
10:20
Speaker 3: lot of shame, there's a lot of trauma, there's a
10:22
Speaker 3: lot of feelings of inadequacy because oftentimes you have to
10:27
Speaker 3: you're isolating yourself because you're so freaked out you don't
10:30
Speaker 3: want to go out, and being able to get back,
10:32
Speaker 3: just as you're saying, being able to get back to
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Speaker 3: work and to go to school is crucial and you
10:41
Speaker 3: see the people that, oh my.
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Speaker 4: God, I'm back, I'm normal again, you know.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, And it's phenomenal watching. And some people it's
10:53
Speaker 2: a case of they started off with no occupational structure.
10:57
Speaker 2: So somebody who was in the room there were a
10:59
Speaker 2: bit of a shut in. They only played on their computer.
11:02
Speaker 2: And then it's like suddenly they're faced with someone like me,
11:05
Speaker 2: and it's like, what do you want to be? And
11:07
Speaker 2: they go and then that and so that's when I
11:13
Speaker 2: go back and I do a bit of digging around
11:15
Speaker 2: and find out where they were at before. What did
11:18
Speaker 2: you want to be? What are you into? What do
11:19
Speaker 2: you like doing? Why do you like computer games? Why
11:22
Speaker 2: do you like that kind of computer games? And then
11:24
Speaker 2: we start to build a picture, and then we find
11:26
Speaker 2: a hook, what I call a hook, and I find
11:29
Speaker 2: that hook. I mean, one of my young lads is.
11:33
Speaker 2: We have care coordination in the UK where you look
11:37
Speaker 2: after somebody and you look after everything from social staff
11:41
Speaker 2: to finances, to education, to work, to family work, all
11:44
Speaker 2: of it. But I was called in by the care
11:48
Speaker 2: coordinator and she said, I don't get him. I don't
11:51
Speaker 2: understand this, lad, I don't I don't get it. I
11:54
Speaker 2: don't get him. I just don't get it. And she says,
11:57
Speaker 2: can you She said, you're the geek whisperer. And I
12:02
Speaker 2: went out and this young guy was into writing narratives
12:09
Speaker 2: androw now where it ended up with a bit of
12:13
Speaker 2: work and a bit of work on his anxiety and
12:17
Speaker 2: his social anxiety. First of all, I took him to
12:19
Speaker 2: Forbidden Planet. I don't know if you have that in
12:22
Speaker 2: the States. It's a bit like a mecca of comic
12:25
Speaker 2: books and geek memorabilia. Basically, it's a comic bookstore. And
12:31
Speaker 2: I took him there and ited, I'm going to introduce you,
12:33
Speaker 2: but back to your people. This is your tribe. And
12:36
Speaker 2: he was like the difference. And then we took him
12:40
Speaker 2: down to that. I took him down to the college
12:42
Speaker 2: we got and signed up and he did a course
12:45
Speaker 2: for three years in computer games design and he's look
12:50
Speaker 2: of opening a business. And that young man never relapsed,
12:54
Speaker 2: and he was considered he's going to be on closil.
12:57
Speaker 2: That's what they thought. This is its right, Fuck.
13:00
Speaker 4: You you can I can just tell.
13:03
Speaker 3: Look, your warmth is exuding seriously out of there.
13:08
Speaker 5: And you know, one of my one of.
13:10
Speaker 3: My colleagues was very similar to you. There's this really
13:13
Speaker 3: warm person who is able to connect with people and
13:17
Speaker 3: a lot of times, like therapists, right, people who've gone
13:22
Speaker 3: to school for therapy, there's a different way that they
13:27
Speaker 3: approach things. And I myself fell into that trap. And
13:32
Speaker 3: you have that just natural warmth and ability to connect
13:37
Speaker 3: with people that is joyful and just you're welcome and
13:44
Speaker 3: just I can just hear the way and see the
13:46
Speaker 3: way you're talking about this particular guy, and it's like
13:49
Speaker 3: I can feel it, and it's like, right, this was
13:52
Speaker 3: a guy who was going to be on these crazy drugs.
13:55
Speaker 3: And granted they serve a purpose for certain pell right fabulously,
14:01
Speaker 3: but for not everyone.
14:02
Speaker 2: Right.
14:03
Speaker 4: Yes, let me ask you a question. Do you currently
14:11
Speaker 4: are you working.
14:12
Speaker 3: On a multiple multidisciplinary team with with psychologists and therapists
14:17
Speaker 3: or you are okay?
14:20
Speaker 2: Our team now we have CPNS, which is Community Psychiatric Nurses,
14:26
Speaker 2: so that's nurses, so we've got nursing staff. We've got
14:28
Speaker 2: a social worker who is embedded within our team. We
14:31
Speaker 2: have myself occupational therapist. There is another occupational therapist, but
14:35
Speaker 2: she's our deputy manager and she doesn't she's like leave
14:39
Speaker 2: that to Tracy. We also have support workers and we
14:45
Speaker 2: have a CBTP therapist that's cognitive behavioral therapist for psychosis,
14:52
Speaker 2: and we have a psychologist as well. I'm trying to
14:57
Speaker 2: think of at everybody else, and we have nice prescribers.
14:59
Speaker 2: All of us except the psychologists. All of us care coordinate,
15:05
Speaker 2: so we all have a role with a group of
15:09
Speaker 2: patients fifteen. Usually I have a slightly reduced caseload because
15:13
Speaker 2: of other responsibilities and we look after everything so but
15:18
Speaker 2: I tend to pick it sounds awful, the ones with
15:23
Speaker 2: the highest occupational needs and done with me, and we
15:27
Speaker 2: swap them around a little bit if required. But yeah,
15:30
Speaker 2: you have a central worker, but then you can have
15:32
Speaker 2: an occupational therapist. You've got psychologists coming in and we
15:36
Speaker 2: are very much bound by the end cap in the UK.
15:41
Speaker 2: We have to make sure that somebody's offered CLAUSEVEL at
15:45
Speaker 2: the right time if they need it. We have to
15:47
Speaker 2: make sure they're offered cognitive behavioral therapy for psychosis within
15:51
Speaker 2: three years. And we've got a lot of standards in
15:54
Speaker 2: the UK that we have to abide by and vocational
15:58
Speaker 2: occupational therapy and vocational work is one of my responsibilities
16:03
Speaker 2: to meet, sure, but everybody has that.
16:05
Speaker 3: So you have, you know, a lot of experience under
16:09
Speaker 3: your belt. What would you say to the newer therapists
16:14
Speaker 3: out there who maybe aren't even familiar with this part.
16:20
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people aren't familiar with early psychosis.
16:23
Speaker 3: As you said, this is a cutting edge kind of
16:26
Speaker 3: specialization topic right now. You know, people were learning more
16:31
Speaker 3: and more about it, but a lot of people aren't
16:34
Speaker 3: familiar with the early signs, the early symptoms. But what
16:37
Speaker 3: would you say to newer therapists that maybe you know
16:42
Speaker 3: you might be working with.
16:45
Speaker 2: Okay, this is what I do say. This is what
16:49
Speaker 2: I say to our students and new staff. Don't be
16:52
Speaker 2: scared of the jargon. I've been working in this for
16:56
Speaker 2: ten years. My manager she's eleven years in psychosis earlier intervention.
17:02
Speaker 2: We have very very well oiled wheels of process. Do
17:07
Speaker 2: not think for a minute that you are going to
17:11
Speaker 2: know all of this in the first month. In fact,
17:16
Speaker 2: if I came into work and it's not a school
17:19
Speaker 2: day and I'm not learning something, it's time for me
17:22
Speaker 2: to retire. So it's like everything's a constant, You're constantly learning,
17:27
Speaker 2: and sometimes especially with psychosis and this is how I
17:31
Speaker 2: describe it to my students and people. Just when you
17:35
Speaker 2: think you've got what psychosis is and you go to
17:39
Speaker 2: grab it and think I've got it, I'm just it
17:41
Speaker 2: disappears like smoke. It just goes and it's it's because
17:47
Speaker 2: there is so much crossover between emotionally unstable or borderline
17:52
Speaker 2: personality disorder as we depending on ICD ten or DSM.
17:57
Speaker 2: There's also huge over life apps with history onic. You've
18:01
Speaker 2: got loads of schitzotypal and you've got Schitzotypal is one
18:07
Speaker 2: of our at risk mental states. If you've got a
18:09
Speaker 2: schizotypal diagnosis and then you get a drop in function,
18:13
Speaker 2: you'll then come under our team because you're considered an
18:16
Speaker 2: at risk mental state because you can go into sull psychosis.
18:20
Speaker 2: But yet and it's getting hold of all those things,
18:22
Speaker 2: and it's like, don't feel that you have to know
18:25
Speaker 2: everything about psychosis. Listen, man, don't be scared to say
18:31
Speaker 2: what what was that? It took me such a long
18:35
Speaker 2: time to work out the dish positive and negative symptoms
18:37
Speaker 2: and it's one of the most basic, basic parts of it.
18:42
Speaker 2: And we've got ways of teaching that. So a positive
18:45
Speaker 2: symptom is things that are added. So positive addition, things
18:49
Speaker 2: that are added to normal experience, so voices, delusions, bizarre beliefs,
18:54
Speaker 2: tactile hallucinations, hallucinations generally, whereas negative symptoms are things that
18:59
Speaker 2: are taking away, are subtracted from our normal experience. So motivation,
19:05
Speaker 2: wanting to go out in the world, appetite, sex, drive,
19:08
Speaker 2: all of that. And it's like working out. It's that
19:13
Speaker 2: very basic, but never as a new person coming into it,
19:16
Speaker 2: it's like, don't feel you have to know it all,
19:18
Speaker 2: because you don't. You just need to believe that these
19:21
Speaker 2: people can get better. And they can. I've got young
19:25
Speaker 2: people that I treated seven years ago who have been married,
19:29
Speaker 2: had children, gone to university, done a master's degree on medication.
19:34
Speaker 2: They are living a full and wonderful life. And it's like, seriously.
19:38
Speaker 4: It's exciting to see. Yeah, people do get better.
19:41
Speaker 3: And we would also, I would often tell my clients that,
19:44
Speaker 3: and it's not going.
19:45
Speaker 4: To be a straight line up, you know all the time.
19:47
Speaker 5: It's you know, but if they came and they did
19:51
Speaker 5: the work and they were committed to the program and
19:54
Speaker 5: the groups, et cetera, people most if not all, people
19:57
Speaker 5: definitely got better.
19:59
Speaker 3: You know, when I when I first started in that field,
20:02
Speaker 3: in that job. I was kind of fresh out of school,
20:07
Speaker 3: newly minted with my degree, and I felt like I
20:10
Speaker 3: needed to have all the answers right. I felt that,
20:14
Speaker 3: you know, therapy was going to do it, and it
20:18
Speaker 3: really I kind of needed the rug pulled out from
20:21
Speaker 3: under me and to really get what you're talking about
20:26
Speaker 3: and kind of what's emanating from you, which is this
20:30
Speaker 3: warmth and this the power of you know, belonging and relationship.
20:36
Speaker 3: Talk a little bit about that and really your personal
20:41
Speaker 3: story getting that because when you got into this field,
20:44
Speaker 3: were you.
20:44
Speaker 4: Like this this the way you are?
20:49
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. It was actually my my my husband's no
20:55
Speaker 2: ex husband who's an occupational therapist. He had not long
20:59
Speaker 2: qualified working in an O T department in physical and
21:02
Speaker 2: physical medicine, and he sort of went, you have that thing,
21:08
Speaker 2: you have this thing. I had no idea what it
21:10
Speaker 2: was all about. I still to a certain degree don't,
21:14
Speaker 2: but he said, you need a rubber stamp. You need
21:21
Speaker 2: to go and get a qualification so that you rubber
21:23
Speaker 2: stamp what you can do for people, because nobody will
21:26
Speaker 2: let you do it otherwise. So I did. I did
21:30
Speaker 2: my psychology degree part time while my babies were little
21:33
Speaker 2: her now twenty in their twenties, and I did that,
21:37
Speaker 2: and then I did my occupational therapy degree because all
21:40
Speaker 2: I wanted to do was treat people. I just wanted
21:44
Speaker 2: to be a person that dealt with people with mental
21:47
Speaker 2: health problems and that was the cheapest way for me
21:50
Speaker 2: to do it because I couldn't afford to do my
21:52
Speaker 2: PhD or my clinical doctrine. So that's what I did,
21:55
Speaker 2: and that's why I'm an occupational therapist. But yeah, I've
21:59
Speaker 2: always had that. And it's strange actually because a very
22:03
Speaker 2: very close friend of mine actually said to me, but
22:06
Speaker 2: I actually thought the way you are with people was
22:08
Speaker 2: because of your training. And he said, I don't think
22:11
Speaker 2: it is, is it? And I am maybe not. He says,
22:14
Speaker 2: you've always been like that, and I was like, okay,
22:17
Speaker 2: maybe yep.
22:19
Speaker 3: But it's that it's really tracy. It's that quality. And
22:23
Speaker 3: I think so many I don't not every, but a
22:28
Speaker 3: lot of therapists suppress because they think that it's this
22:35
Speaker 3: other all the techniques and the interventions that are so
22:38
Speaker 3: vitally important that are going to do the trick, And yes,
22:41
Speaker 3: those have their value, but it's being able to mean
22:46
Speaker 3: you can just see you're just so genuine and authentic
22:50
Speaker 3: and being able to translate that when you're sitting in
22:52
Speaker 3: front of someone who potentially could be scary, who you know,
22:57
Speaker 3: could be psychotic or experiencing and symptoms that's not easy
23:01
Speaker 3: to do, you know, to be able to be present
23:05
Speaker 3: with someone who's experiencing those symptoms.
23:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, at the end of the day, nobody really wants
23:13
Speaker 2: to hurt anyone. And I believe this in my absolute core.
23:21
Speaker 2: Fear is a response to anxiety, and anger is a
23:27
Speaker 2: response to fear. And if you're getting anger, it's because
23:31
Speaker 2: somebody's frightened. And if we can actually just engage a
23:34
Speaker 2: softer tone of voice, step back, give them space. And
23:38
Speaker 2: it's all that polyvagel, all that polyvagel stuff that we
23:42
Speaker 2: talk about, which is amazing. And I don't have all
23:44
Speaker 2: the terminology. I know I do it, but I'm like,
23:47
Speaker 2: how do that? Oh, that's clever, but it's amazing because
23:53
Speaker 2: that's neurological. And it's like, as long as you can
23:57
Speaker 2: sit with somebody and sit in I mean in this
24:00
Speaker 2: it's one of the things that you actually ask on
24:01
Speaker 2: the list of questions. It's like I go to quote
24:05
Speaker 2: and I don't know where this quote came from, but
24:06
Speaker 2: it's like, sometimes when you're in the darkness, you don't
24:09
Speaker 2: want somebody to rescue you from the darkness. You just
24:12
Speaker 2: want somebody who's going to be okay to sit in
24:14
Speaker 2: it with you and to just hear you. And that's
24:19
Speaker 2: sometimes all we can do because I can't make it better,
24:25
Speaker 2: but I can certainly sit there so they're not on
24:27
Speaker 2: their own. And then it's like, there's hope now that
24:31
Speaker 2: you're ready to listen, now that you can hear me,
24:35
Speaker 2: Let's let's talk about the hope. Let's talk about other
24:39
Speaker 2: people that are going through this.
24:42
Speaker 4: You know, when you first started, did you get that?
24:47
Speaker 2: I think so it was probably one.
24:50
Speaker 3: Of those people who got it right away.
24:54
Speaker 2: I don't think I was as oh, it's difficult. I
25:00
Speaker 2: seem to go the other way, the other way. It's
25:05
Speaker 2: almost like sometimes I doubt myself now because I don't
25:09
Speaker 2: have a master's degree in cognitive behavioral therapy, because I
25:13
Speaker 2: haven't got my master's degree in in sensory integration, and
25:18
Speaker 2: it's like I don't need them. I just need those tools.
25:22
Speaker 2: I need the tools, and I need the understanding and
25:24
Speaker 2: I need to know when I can and when I can't.
25:28
Speaker 2: That I think is the bit. It's knowing when and
25:33
Speaker 2: when not to do something. But generally what I tend
25:38
Speaker 2: to do is it's like it's when I've got somebody
25:41
Speaker 2: in front of me, it seems so obvious. I had.
25:43
Speaker 2: We have a community in the UK that are travelers
25:47
Speaker 2: and they travel around and they don't live in houses.
25:50
Speaker 2: They live in caravans and on sites, and they tend
25:53
Speaker 2: to get a bit, a very bad bit reputation, and
25:56
Speaker 2: they can be quite difficult to deal with. They have
25:58
Speaker 2: a very different culture and a lot of them aren't educated.
26:02
Speaker 2: They don't read, they don't speak, they're pulled out of
26:04
Speaker 2: school when they're about nine. And we have quite a
26:08
Speaker 2: lot of these young people that become psychotic and very
26:11
Speaker 2: difficult to manage. And I've actually got one who's an
26:14
Speaker 2: OT client of mine. I don't care coordinate them. And
26:18
Speaker 2: I remember doing the OT assessment and I went through,
26:20
Speaker 2: so what do you like doing? And you know what
26:23
Speaker 2: things do you do around the house and what things
26:25
Speaker 2: do you do around the site, And I've built a
26:27
Speaker 2: picture And when I fed back to him, I said.
26:32
Speaker 1: He.
26:34
Speaker 2: Is so clever, he is so so smart, so smart,
26:38
Speaker 2: he watches documentaries on Netflix, and he gets frustrated because
26:44
Speaker 2: when he wants to watch one that isn't in English,
26:47
Speaker 2: he has to put the subtitles up and he can't
26:49
Speaker 2: read them, so he's constantly waking his girlfriend up, who
26:52
Speaker 2: luckily can read a little. So basically, one of my
26:56
Speaker 2: main objectives when I go back to work hopefully soon,
27:01
Speaker 2: will be that actually I can't get anybody to teach
27:04
Speaker 2: this lad to read. So I've actually found a whole
27:08
Speaker 2: load of resources and I'm going to do it little
27:11
Speaker 2: bits and then teach his girlfriend how to teach him.
27:14
Speaker 2: And it's and you've got an end because he's, oh,
27:17
Speaker 2: he's crazy smart. He's crazy smart. And it's like all
27:21
Speaker 2: your lacking is to be able to read right right,
27:25
Speaker 2: you know?
27:26
Speaker 3: And you are a breath of fresh airman, You're you're
27:30
Speaker 3: just so your your your joy and your passion for
27:35
Speaker 3: this work is just so infectious.
27:37
Speaker 4: And I just love talking to you. Thank you sincerely.
27:41
Speaker 3: How About as we wind down here, how about a
27:43
Speaker 3: go to book recommendation, whether it's OT related or trauma related,
27:48
Speaker 3: or earliest lated or not.
27:51
Speaker 2: Right. This is actually by a lady. I don't know
27:53
Speaker 2: if you have heard of her in the States. But
27:54
Speaker 2: I recommend everybody anybody interested in trauma must to read
28:00
Speaker 2: this woman. She's got a podcast. She is phenomenal. Her
28:03
Speaker 2: name is Carolyne Spring and it's Carolyn's Carolyne Spring. And
28:10
Speaker 2: she has a couple of books. You can get them
28:12
Speaker 2: on Amazon. You can even get them as audio books.
28:15
Speaker 2: The first one that I read was called Unshame, and
28:20
Speaker 2: she's got she's got several others. They'll come up on Amazon.
28:23
Speaker 2: And the other one is called Recovery is My Best Revenge.
28:29
Speaker 2: She is an absolute inspiration. And as she's from the UK,
28:35
Speaker 2: we don't have a lot. I mean, we've got you
28:37
Speaker 2: over there in the States, which is amazing, and I
28:38
Speaker 2: listen to you, and a lot of my colleagues are
28:40
Speaker 2: starting to to but actually to get somebody who's British rare,
28:46
Speaker 2: very very rare, and she is amazing. She actually had
28:49
Speaker 2: a diagnosis of d i D Disassociated identity disorder secondary
28:53
Speaker 2: to lots and lots of abuse in childhood, and she
28:59
Speaker 2: has recovered. She has recovered, and she is a leading
29:02
Speaker 2: light in this country. And she is a phenomenal, phenomenal,
29:06
Speaker 2: very very British, very very matter of fact. I love
29:10
Speaker 2: it a lover. She is really good. She has a
29:13
Speaker 2: podcast too, a lot of the We have an agency
29:18
Speaker 2: here called ROSA, which is to do with rape and
29:21
Speaker 2: sexual assault. It's a it's charity based and they have
29:25
Speaker 2: an amazing program and everything they do is based on
29:29
Speaker 2: her work.
29:30
Speaker 4: Wow.
29:31
Speaker 2: And to be honest, to be honest, I'm quite jealous
29:35
Speaker 2: of being in the NHS that their stuff is better
29:39
Speaker 2: than what we can do because we're so bound by
29:43
Speaker 2: bound by all these you must have this qualification in
29:47
Speaker 2: these letters after your name, and it's like, I've got
29:49
Speaker 2: the letters after my name. Can you just let me
29:51
Speaker 2: treat my patients, you know? But yeah, it's phenomenal, phenomenal work.
29:56
Speaker 2: So she is amazing.
29:57
Speaker 3: I'll definitely check her out. Well, look, I would love
30:00
Speaker 3: to have you back at some point. I just really
30:03
Speaker 3: love talking to you and love to have your energy
30:07
Speaker 3: infuse this podcast. So, okay, the problem Tracy. Awesome speaking
30:13
Speaker 3: speaking to you, and thanks again for coming on.
30:15
Speaker 2: Here, Thank you for letting me come on.
30:18
Speaker 4: All right, take care okay