Latest / Host Planet: Airbnb, Holiday Let, and Vacation Rental Insights / From Hotel Desk to 55 STRs | Scaling on the Basque Coast

Transcript

From Hotel Desk to 55 STRs | Scaling on the Basque Coast · Host Planet: Airbnb, Holiday Let, and Vacation Rental Insights

• 0:00
  Welcome to the House. Planet Playbook your go to guide
• 0:03
  for mastering short term rentals in this special series.
• 0:06
  We're sitting down. With 30 of the world's top
• 0:08
  property managers to uncover what really drives success in
• 0:12
  the vacation rental industry, you'll hear their stories, learn
• 0:16
  the key lessons they've picked up along the way, and discover
• 0:19
  the game changing tech. They use to deliver.
• 0:21
  Five star guest experiences. If you're serious about growing
• 0:25
  your STR business, you're in the right place.
• 0:28
  We've also developed an e-book featuring the stories of every
• 0:31
  manager in this series, and you can download it for free.
• 0:35
  Head to houseplanet dot club to. Find out more.
• 0:38
  In today's episode, we're chatting to Oyen Campan Dei from
• 0:41
  Biarritz in France. Stand by for a deep dive into
• 0:44
  automation, dealing with stringent regulation, and
• 0:48
  keeping your cleaners on site. This special series is brought
• 0:56
  to you by Host Planet and Hospitable, the smart AI powered
• 1:00
  property management software trusted by hosts worldwide.
• 1:04
  With Hospitable, you can automate guest messaging, sync
• 1:07
  calendars across platforms and manage your rentals with ease,
• 1:11
  all from one powerful, easy to use platform.
• 1:14
  If you're keen to run your short term rental on autopilot, try
• 1:18
  Hospitable today. Visit hospitable.com/host
• 1:21
  Planet. See how the?
• 1:22
  Platform can save you time. Reduce stress and maximize your
• 1:26
  earnings. I am.
• 1:27
  Thank you for being part of the House Planet Playbook.
• 1:30
  Let's start with you. What's the name of your company?
• 1:33
  Where are you located and how many?
• 1:35
  Rentals do you manage? Bonjour, James.
• 1:37
  Thank you for having me. So my company is called
• 1:41
  Destination Uncle Basque, which means the destination of the
• 1:45
  best coast in French. It is located in Berez.
• 1:48
  So in the South of France it has been working as a real estate
• 1:55
  company for three years and I manage 45 listings flats and
• 2:03
  then 10 to 15 villas. So being bigger houses with
• 2:09
  pools, garden and more exterior. The houses, we just got them
• 2:15
  this year, it's brand new. And the flats, we've been doing
• 2:19
  it actually for six years and three years as a real estate
• 2:23
  agency. So it's like the upgrade of only
• 2:26
  being a concierge that we have here in France.
• 2:30
  Fantastic. So tell us, how did you get
• 2:32
  involved in the world of short term rentals?
• 2:34
  Well, I actually have a hospitality background so I used
• 2:38
  to work as a reception clerk since I finished school.
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  So it was 8 years ago now and I actually started by buying my
• 2:48
  own flat in Bayonne, which is a town just next to Birets.
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  It was way more cheaper than Birets, but then it has also a
• 2:58
  very interesting appeal with the best culture and the tourism,
• 3:04
  the business. So I just bought this flat and I
• 3:06
  was just thinking of how to make it more profitable for myself.
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  First I thought giving it to a company, a real estate company,
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  and my family told me that I was working in hospitality so maybe
• 3:20
  I should try. And it actually was a good idea
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  because then I just made, well some money thanks to it.
• 3:28
  And I was just doing it on Airbnb 1st and then a friend
• 3:32
  told me they had a flat and they needed to be rented.
• 3:36
  So I said, OK, I have one, I can do a second one.
• 3:38
  It's not very difficult. So I was looking for a tool that
• 3:42
  could help me out because I still had my job as a as a
• 3:45
  reception clerk and it's like 7 to midday then 2:00 to 8:00 PM.
• 3:51
  So I had times that was that were nice to do cleanings and
• 3:55
  check insurance, but then messaging and stuff I couldn't
• 3:57
  do it all the time. So I found a spittable which was
• 4:02
  called Smart BNB at the time and that really liked the way it was
• 4:09
  called Smart BNB and I hospitable it just hit me.
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  And then all the ways you could do like messaging and have
• 4:18
  everything automatic. It really helped me out because
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  I could just enter everything there and just check when I had
• 4:25
  a break on during midday and I could just confirm or change a
• 4:29
  little bit the things. And then during the years it
• 4:32
  just became bigger and bigger and with more possibilities.
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  And for me, it's like a game trying to find the best way.
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  So it works perfectly for you and then you just double check
• 4:43
  and change the particulars. But this is how I got introduced
• 4:47
  with Hospitable. I really went like this until
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  now with my real estate company. Fantastic.
• 4:53
  So talk us about scaling. Tell us about the journey of
• 4:56
  getting to where you are now with, I think it seems like
• 4:59
  about 60 properties that you're managing.
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  Yeah, what's really good, I took what I learned in hospitable and
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  hospitality. So we usually learn that if you
• 5:12
  want to have bigger hotels, you try to do standardized
• 5:16
  procedures. So then the way you greet the
• 5:20
  guest, the way you have a contact, you want it to be
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  standardized, but at the same time you want it to be
• 5:26
  personalized. And this is how I used
• 5:29
  hospitable so I could, it's really easy use like just, I
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  don't know, you call that in English, but to add the name of
• 5:37
  the guest so you, you can do it a whole message with different
• 5:41
  dates, add the name, add extra info.
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  And so this is how I was able to go from 2:00 to 10:00 the first
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  year, I guess, because then all you had to do was find the
• 5:53
  proper staff to do the cleanings.
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  But then everything that was helping out with guest
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  messaging, just trying to send confirmation, send three days
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  before, prior to check in. Just say, Hey, how are you?
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  You coming in three days and I could also do I changed for self
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  check in instructions so then I didn't do the check in on my own
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  but I was scared that people might value less the check in.
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  But then all the reviews are again, is very warm,
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  sympathetic. And I was like, yeah, we never
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  met really in person. But all the messages I added,
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  the times I tried to put them just made the people feel like
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  you are there for them. You are.
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  Because when they reply, you check the reply, you see if
• 6:45
  everything's going smoothly. OK, you can just leave it, let
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  it go. If there is an issue, boom, you
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  can quickly try to find a solution there.
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  And it really helped. I have a very good high score
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  and all this. So I would say in scaling, the
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  most important was just like really doing the most important
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  job on your own. So being taking care of what's
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  not OK and leaving the, the messages go as they flow where
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  where it's OK. So then instead of having 15
• 7:13
  messages to send per day, you have two because you're just
• 7:16
  checking everyone's OK. And then one is saying, oh, that
• 7:19
  doesn't work. So you're just like, OK.
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  And now with the new AI capability, you just press so
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  the AI can prepare the the message and you just double
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  check to be sure that everything's OK there and you
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  send it. It's for me.
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  I have days off now, but I couldn't before.
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  And at night I'm also less there on the phone.
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  I have the personal phone and the professional and I just turn
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  it off and the AI can send my personal phone if there is an
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  emergency at night. So this is how the scaling was
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  still manageable with only one myself and I have an assistant
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  and then the cleaning team. But in a hotel you would need 7
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  people when we are 2 so for me it's way worth it.
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  Fantastic, yes a hospitable is actually helping you have some
• 8:11
  days off, helping you have some holidays which is which is nice
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  to hear. Talk to us about guest
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  experience then. What are your top tips for
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  delivering an outstanding guest experience?
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  For me, the the what's paramount when you have to speak with
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  guests and take care of guest experience is you need to be
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  very clear on your communication.
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  If you know that the place is a little bit noisy, you say it
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  from the beginning because a guest that books knowing
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  everything for him it's a choice.
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  Meaning maybe it will be a little bit cheaper because it's
• 8:48
  next to passing St. and you know that during the summer there is
• 8:52
  lots of people. So you just say it's next to a
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  passing street. So be careful if you are very
• 8:57
  mindful of the noise, book here, book somewhere else.
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  And then you have young people, they don't care at all because
• 9:03
  they're going to sleep in every morning and they're like, yeah,
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  it's OK, we will, we'll just go for this and this.
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  And so we are OK with that. And so people choose with the
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  right arguments and they know why they choose it.
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  So this would be the first thing.
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  It's communication and being very clear, not trying to hide.
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  I would even put a spoiler spotlight on it, but try to use
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  positive vocabulary instead of bad because we know that the
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  brain doesn't understand negativity.
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  If I say don't think about a pink elephant, you will just see
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  it in your head. So you're trying to do
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  everything positive and be very clear about it and say we know
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  that there is and there it's lots of planes going in and out.
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  We have villas. They are right under the train
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  track and under the plane tracks.
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  So we just say it, we say there is passing of of planes.
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  It's from that hour to the hour, it lasts 10 seconds.
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  But the villa is way cheaper than another 1-2 kilometers
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  away. So what do you want?
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  Better price or more quiet? Some people will say I pay extra
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  quiet, some will say I don't care.
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  So communication would be the first that comes to mind and
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  clear communication. The second would be to always
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  show that you want to be very positive.
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  So even if some people are saying this doesn't work, you
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  have to show them in a positive way that maybe it is just a
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  problem of how they use the tool.
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  It happens a lot with cooking plates and I think there is some
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  French stuff that English people don't don't know how to use, the
• 10:45
  Spanish ones even. So you're just trying to say OK,
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  always in a positive way how to fix it and sometimes it can't be
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  fixed. So if you can't fix it, you need
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  to still try to find another solution.
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  I've actually had to rebook hotel rooms for guests and I
• 11:05
  took the price. And this is something you do in
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  hospitable in hospitality very soon when you try to work there,
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  it's if it doesn't work, you just book a hotel.
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  You know, it's like maybe €20 extra per night, it's for three
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  nights and you just offer it and then even you don't cancel the
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  booking. And at the end they say we
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  stayed, it didn't work, we've been to a hotel, they paid for
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  it, it was perfect. So then you still have 5 star
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  even though it was a catastrophe.
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  So I would say trying to show this and then the last one would
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  be even if you are professional, maybe show that you are human.
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  So I'm still using my personal Airbnb account instead of my
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  company account because I noticed that the way people are
• 11:56
  speaking to you and the, the way they will behave is very
• 12:00
  different. Meaning if it's a company, they
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  will ask for refund at the, at any, anything that happened,
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  it's a refund. Neighbors are crying at night
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  and banging the walls like we like a full refund, please.
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  And you're like, no, that doesn't work like this.
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  And when I'm just with my personal face and OEM compound,
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  the E the people are like, Oh, they're a little bit noisy.
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  Could you do something about it? And, and I say, yes, I'm going
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  to call, I'm going to go. So keep personal.
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  It's nice to show big brands and be like yeah company, whatever
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  what not. I'd say let's be more close
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  humanly and stay human instead of a big company.
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  I think that makes a lot of sense.
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  Yeah. People prefer to deal with a a
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  human face to face rather than a rather than a company.
• 12:45
  Yeah, definitely. So tell us a little bit about
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  beer. It's then your location.
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  What are the main challenges and opportunities in your market?
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  I say the main challenge is the fact that we work a lot from May
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  to September and then the rest of the year it's more like low
• 13:04
  season being because of the weather.
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  It's it's really like a summer vacation destination.
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  It has some events during the low season, but it's quite empty
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  and lots of rich people come during the summer.
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  Then the houses are just empty. So this would be the first
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  difficulty here, meaning if you want to be successful during the
• 13:29
  whole year, you need to change the the way you work.
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  This is why I actually opened the real estate company because
• 13:36
  we needed to be able to do normal rental company, normal
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  rental contracts, student student contracts and mobility
• 13:44
  contracts with with without all the leases that you can do here.
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  That helps having work during the low season.
• 13:52
  And also you need to keep your cleaning teams with you.
• 13:56
  So we have people that come only during the the high season.
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  So they are more volatile, they are less, how do you say they
• 14:05
  are less involved in the company?
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  So they will do cleanings, but maybe less good than what you'd
• 14:11
  like. And then you have the people
• 14:12
  staying with you all year long, but then during low season
• 14:15
  they're waiting for more work. So you have to find the perfect
• 14:19
  balance and still earn money without losing it.
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  So this would be the first big challenge during summer.
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  There is no difficulty. I would say to sell something,
• 14:28
  to rent it. You still need to have the level
• 14:32
  of quality that you sell because there is a lot of work, not much
• 14:36
  time to train the the cleaning people.
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  So the best would be to pay them goods.
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  So they come again each year. So we have two couples actually
• 14:45
  that come every summer and they go back during the winter.
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  So this is good. It's actually precious.
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  So I would say be very nice and kind with your cleaning teams.
• 14:55
  And also some issues you have to just overlook them.
• 15:00
  Like if you go to a flat and you're checking it and you see
• 15:03
  that they forgot some stains on the windows, you just wipe them.
• 15:08
  If you start to say PPPPPP, they're going to get mad because
• 15:11
  it's a lot of work. And also do cleanings with them.
• 15:14
  I do cleanings every week. The bigger ones, I'm there and
• 15:19
  if they want someday they'll just chew warm down and they say
• 15:25
  I need a break, it's a little bit difficult.
• 15:26
  I say, OK, I'll just go do the last flat and you can go rest.
• 15:29
  And then you're closer to them and it helps.
• 15:33
  And you're also part of what's hard, the cleaning, because it's
• 15:36
  not the most absolute job. I say.
• 15:42
  Then the second difficulty we have here, I think it's also the
• 15:45
  same in the US and and other parts where there is a lot of
• 15:48
  tourism and a lot of Airbnb's and short rentals.
• 15:52
  It's the local law that changed. So now you are not allowed to do
• 15:58
  short rentals like this. You need to fill different
• 16:03
  categories, meaning either the place is your primary residence.
• 16:10
  So if it's your primary residence, you can book it
• 16:13
  $120.00 per year and it can go down to 90 days per year
• 16:18
  depending on the districts. So the mayor just chooses where
• 16:21
  it's blocked. So meaning more seasonality.
• 16:27
  So it doesn't help. But still it's good because we
• 16:29
  have big villas. And in any case, it wouldn't
• 16:32
  rent during short during a low season.
• 16:35
  And then you have the other ones that are so not primary
• 16:38
  residence, second residence. And then to be able to book them
• 16:43
  short rentals, you have to have students in there for nine
• 16:48
  months. And the students loan, is it
• 16:52
  loan? Yeah, it's, it's blocked.
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  So you can only ask for €10 per square meter.
• 16:59
  So then for someone, an owner that used to have a lot of money
• 17:03
  from a flat during the whole year, now it's a little during
• 17:07
  nine months. And then you have to be very,
• 17:09
  very good during the rest of the time.
• 17:11
  And if you fail to find the student, you don't have the
• 17:15
  right to book. So if you fail to find a
• 17:17
  student, you also lose the owner I guess for the next year.
• 17:20
  So it's like a big race and the students, you have to find them
• 17:25
  during August. So when you are doing the whole
• 17:28
  cleaning and check in and check out of the people.
• 17:31
  So it's very hectic. I like it personally.
• 17:34
  It's really something that draws me.
• 17:37
  But it can be hard, I guess for people that have that are a
• 17:40
  little bit more that like very stability in the job.
• 17:43
  It's not for them. Sounds like a big challenge.
• 17:46
  Yeah. So really you've got the you've
• 17:48
  got the summer season where most properties have got their 90
• 17:51
  days, but then the rest of the year it's a longer term rental.
• 17:56
  But you have to you have to rent it to the students.
• 17:58
  That's that's that's your only choice and rate set by the local
• 18:02
  authority. Yes, that's it.
• 18:05
  We, we actually found one way to to still have work during the
• 18:10
  low season is the bigger homes that have 5 and plus bedrooms
• 18:16
  and bathrooms. We actually keep them as primary
• 18:20
  residences, but we rent the bedrooms on their own.
• 18:24
  So it's really like a hotel room at the end.
• 18:27
  So I've done the whole loop. I'm back to doing hotel rentals
• 18:33
  and it helps because it gives like a minimum work for the
• 18:36
  cleaning team during low season so we can keep them and it was
• 18:41
  it's still accepted. I don't know if it's going to
• 18:43
  stay like this for a while, but it's just very particular homes.
• 18:47
  So it will not crash the whole, you know, people trying to find
• 18:51
  places to stay long term. So I think they they will not
• 18:54
  block it. And for us it's a good solution
• 18:57
  and you can only do it if you are really good at cleaning,
• 19:03
  check in, check out. So it is a whole other level of
• 19:07
  service. It's actually called Paja
• 19:09
  Otolier. So meaning just next to what
• 19:13
  would a hotel do? So it's high end I would say.
• 19:16
  So I imagine in August then, is there quite a demand to grab
• 19:21
  those students to? Get them.
• 19:24
  It's crazy. We start very early to make sure
• 19:26
  that we have the most of the students settled in.
• 19:30
  The sooner the better. But for now on, on all the
• 19:34
  places we may be still, we are missing like 3 students.
• 19:39
  But parkour soup, it's a the, I don't know the equivalents in
• 19:43
  English, but the one that are doing very long studies they
• 19:48
  have they, they are, the appliances are accepted now.
• 19:51
  So they are looking now. So we know that we have last
• 19:54
  calls that will go now. And if we're missing, we still
• 19:57
  have the possibility to do mobility leases.
• 20:01
  Which are not normal leases. It's only for people coming to
• 20:07
  do work. So it has to be less than one
• 20:09
  month and more than one month and less than 11 months.
• 20:14
  Meaning you can find somewhere there someone to be in the
• 20:17
  place. It will be a little bit more
• 20:19
  expensive the rent than a student because there is no law,
• 20:23
  but it will be cheaper than doing short rentals because you
• 20:26
  cannot do 5K on on someone on 11 month and then it doesn't give
• 20:33
  you the short rental possibility afterwards.
• 20:35
  So you have to find a solution until September next year and
• 20:38
  then put a student there. Complicated sounds.
• 20:43
  Pretty board game. You just need to click there and
• 20:46
  understand that sometimes you need to lower a little bit the
• 20:49
  price to make sure you have the student and then have the short
• 20:53
  rental. Sounds sounds like you need to
• 20:55
  develop an algorithm to like work out who's going to, who's
• 20:58
  going to rent rich property and and for which.
• 21:01
  I would for which style us people could make me think about
• 21:04
  it. So tell.
• 21:06
  Us then what makes. Your property management
• 21:09
  company, your brand stand out among the competition in Beirut.
• 21:14
  I would say it's because of the hospitality background I have
• 21:20
  and also the fact that it is a real real estate company.
• 21:25
  Usually people in real estate, they do transactions, so they
• 21:30
  sell, they sell homes and they earn on that.
• 21:37
  So they do short rentals. As in how do you say that as a
• 21:43
  compliment, as an auxiliary work, Just you have more guests
• 21:49
  and maybe try to sell to some people that are travelling.
• 21:52
  So it's more like a side hustle. I don't know if I can, I can say
• 21:56
  that whereas I'm not interested in doing transaction.
• 22:01
  I could do it because I have the status, but I don't know the
• 22:05
  laws. I don't want to do something I'm
• 22:07
  not expert in because it's it's big responsibility.
• 22:12
  So I have this capability of doing the work as a real, as a
• 22:16
  real estate company with the knowledge of someone from the
• 22:21
  hood catering industry. So it's a very different mix.
• 22:26
  And I'm better I would say than people doing only real estate.
• 22:30
  And also we have this high end procedures that we apply with.
• 22:36
  It's very silly, but it's like the toilet paper is folded in a
• 22:39
  triangle, the beds are made squared, it's my own sheets.
• 22:44
  So honestly, you have nothing to think about just to go away and
• 22:48
  let us and take to place clean it, prepare it like a hotel.
• 22:52
  And I think this kind of level of preparation, I didn't see it.
• 22:59
  And even this year when we did other big homes, So with real,
• 23:04
  real companies like others that I will, I won't give names.
• 23:11
  I saw the quality of the cleanings and I just thought,
• 23:14
  yes, the guest, they will not notice that it's not as clean.
• 23:18
  But when you look at the hall, it just looked a little bit less
• 23:21
  lavish and less high end than what we would do.
• 23:25
  So I think this is what really stands out and it works on
• 23:29
  smaller places until some point. I would say if you have smaller
• 23:35
  flats that are normally prepared with no high end decoration, I
• 23:42
  would say we try to do less because then it's just you know,
• 23:47
  it's not worth it because it will not do a book difference.
• 23:50
  But on bigger places, it's the whole difference.
• 23:54
  Fantastic. Yeah, that real attention to
• 23:56
  detail. What's been your biggest lesson
• 24:00
  learned since you got involved in short term rentals?
• 24:05
  Don't take it personally. Whatever all the energy you can
• 24:10
  pour in there, all the goodwill you will give, all the attention
• 24:14
  to detail you will put into the place, you will always have
• 24:18
  someone complaining and being like Ning Ning.
• 24:22
  And when I was younger, I really, it would, it would make
• 24:26
  me crazy. I would really be out of control
• 24:30
  because I was like, what I'm getting all this.
• 24:32
  And then they're just complaining because they had to
• 24:35
  walk 5 minutes to get there. I don't know what.
• 24:39
  So don't take it personally. People, they come at your place,
• 24:43
  they're trying to unwind, but sometimes they they don't
• 24:46
  succeed in it. And so the other thing they they
• 24:49
  have in mind is just pouring whatever they have in them on
• 24:52
  you and you have to protect yourself and say I did my best.
• 24:58
  I know that I did. And if they are not able to
• 25:02
  enjoy it and unwind and see it as it is, then it's still a
• 25:06
  problem, not mine. And it doesn't touch me anymore
• 25:10
  as much as when I was younger I would really just I couldn't
• 25:15
  sleep at night sometimes. And now I'm just OK, I'm trying
• 25:18
  my best. If it doesn't work, the problem
• 25:20
  is not on my side and I try to find a way to make them unwind
• 25:26
  and leave and say, wow, we came with stress and cancer and we
• 25:30
  got back with more. How do you say Peace of Mind and
• 25:36
  seeing things more possible and seeing just that?
• 25:39
  OK, there it was. Nothing really difficult.
• 25:42
  And they go back home with better energy, I would say.
• 25:46
  Fantastic. OK then Owen, we've got a few
• 25:49
  quick fire questions to get through now.
• 25:52
  So which PMS do you use? So I use hospitable for
• 25:57
  everything. For everything, which dynamic
• 26:01
  pricing tool do you use? I use Pricelabs.
• 26:05
  Which piece of tech couldn't you live without?
• 26:10
  Well, I would say my phone, unfortunately.
• 26:14
  Ideally pets at your rentals. Yes or no?
• 26:20
  No. Ideally hot tubs, yes or no?
• 26:26
  Yes. Self check in or personal
• 26:30
  welcome. That's a hard one.
• 26:35
  I would say self check in. And telephone call or AI
• 26:41
  response? Yeah, response.
• 26:46
  You were talking about that earlier with the with the
• 26:48
  hospitable, the hospitable messaging, the automated
• 26:51
  messages also is there a shout out?
• 26:54
  Is there somebody in the short term rentals industry that's?
• 26:57
  Helped you that. You'd like to give a shout out
• 26:59
  to? Well, it will be smart BNB and
• 27:05
  hospitable. I don't know if I can shout you
• 27:08
  out, but I say without all what we did from the beginning, I
• 27:15
  have no idea where it would have been.
• 27:17
  Maybe still in hotels as a reception clerk, I don't know.
• 27:20
  So thank you. Excellent shout out there for
• 27:24
  hospitable questions. Finished then.
• 27:26
  Ultimate goal for your business. My ultimate goal is to find a an
• 27:33
  assistant that has the same view that I do so I can go 6 month in
• 27:42
  the Caribs and then come back six months just to oversee.
• 27:45
  So having it earning less personally, but having free
• 27:51
  time, so exchanging money for time.
• 27:54
  I love it. Fantastic, Oyen.
• 27:56
  Thank you for joining us, and thank you for being part of the
• 27:58
  Host Planet Playbook. Thank you for having me.
• 28:00
  Bye. All right, that's it for today's
• 28:02
  episode. My thanks to Oyen for sharing
• 28:04
  his. Journey and for being.
• 28:05
  Part of the House Planet Playbook, Remember, this series
• 28:08
  is brought to you in partnership with Hospitable, the All in one
• 28:12
  property management software designed to save you time.
• 28:15
  And help your business. Thrive Hospitable automates your
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  guest messaging, syncs your calendars across platforms,
• 28:21
  handles team tasks, and so much more.
• 28:24
  So you can. Focus on delivering a top notch
• 28:26
  guest experience or just get some of your time back.
• 28:30
  And here's the good news. Houseplanet Playbook listeners
• 28:33
  get an exclusive 14 day free trial plus 25% off for the first
• 28:38
  three months. Head to
• 28:39
  hospitable.com/houseplanet to claim your offer and start
• 28:43
  running your rentals on autopilot.
• 28:46
  For more free education for vacation rental house, head to
• 28:49
  Houseplanet dot Club where you can sign up for our newsletter,
• 28:52
  listen to our podcasts and our download our suite of ebooks.
• 28:56
  Until next time, happy hosting.