Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #254 Jason Flom with Chris Ochoa

Transcript

#254 Jason Flom with Chris Ochoa · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, roommates Chris Ochoe and Richard Danziger
0:05
Speaker 1: worked at two different Pizza Hut locations in Austin, Texas.
0:08
Speaker 1: When a robbery, rape, and murder occurred at another location
0:12
Speaker 1: in the early morning hours of October twenty fourth, Nancy
0:15
Speaker 1: Dupriest led in a man disguised as a repairman, who
0:18
Speaker 1: would later admit to committing the crime alone. However, before
0:22
Speaker 1: this spontaneous admission of guilt, the lack of forced entry
0:25
Speaker 1: led police to focus on other Pizza Hut employees. Several
0:29
Speaker 1: were brought to a notorious interrogator, Detective Hector Polanco, including
0:33
Speaker 1: Chris Ochoa. As we commonly see in pattern and practice
0:38
Speaker 1: from investigators all over the country, Polanco lied about crime
0:41
Speaker 1: scene evidence, polygraph results, and made threats of the death
0:44
Speaker 1: penalty and prison rape. To coerce a statement from a
0:47
Speaker 1: frightened young man, Chris gave false statements implicating himself and
0:51
Speaker 1: Richard Danziger to avoid Polanco's threats of a death sentence.
0:55
Speaker 1: The prosecution passed off primitive and inconclusive DNA test results,
1:00
Speaker 1: as well as dubious hair microscopy as evidence of guilt,
1:03
Speaker 1: but Chris's false confession was really all they needed to
1:06
Speaker 1: set both of them away for life. Both Chris and
1:09
Speaker 1: Richard languished in prison until the Wisconsin Innis's Project was
1:12
Speaker 1: finally able to present modern DNA test results that only
1:16
Speaker 1: corroborated what the real rapist and killer had been confessing
1:19
Speaker 1: to multiple authorities as early as nineteen ninety six. This
1:24
Speaker 1: is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction today's episode.
1:43
Speaker 1: I guess if you were to say, can you point
1:46
Speaker 1: to a case that highlights everything that's wrong with our system,
1:53
Speaker 1: you could easily say, let's talk about the case of
1:57
Speaker 1: Chris Ochoa, sometimes referred to is the Pizza Hut case.
2:01
Speaker 1: But we have the man here today himself in person
2:05
Speaker 1: with us. Chris o'choa. I'm very honored to have you
2:08
Speaker 1: here today on the show.
2:10
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
2:11
Speaker 1: Jason. Joining us today is John Pray. John is a
2:14
Speaker 1: retired clinical professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School,
2:18
Speaker 1: was a driving force in the exoneration of Chris o'choa
2:22
Speaker 1: and has been a force for good for many years
2:26
Speaker 1: for many different innocent people. So John, I'm very very
2:30
Speaker 1: grateful to you for being here today as well.
2:32
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me'm I'm happy to be here.
2:35
Speaker 1: And this case, like many of our cases, involves a
2:39
Speaker 1: young man Chris, who was twenty two years old at
2:42
Speaker 1: the time, who had never had any real issues, was
2:45
Speaker 1: an honor student editor of the high school literary magazine.
2:49
Speaker 1: Sort of mild mannered guy. You're still a mild matter guy,
2:51
Speaker 1: Chris winchesday amazingly.
2:54
Speaker 2: Unless you give me in a court room a story.
2:58
Speaker 1: Well said, so says I mentioned was a good kid,
3:02
Speaker 1: and I'm going to say you, at twenty two years old,
3:03
Speaker 1: you're still a kid. But there were forces of evil
3:07
Speaker 1: that were overwhelming in this instance, right, Not just the
3:12
Speaker 1: evil that was perpetrated on the victim in this case,
3:15
Speaker 1: in what is a grotesque crime by anybody's definition, but
3:20
Speaker 1: also the evil compounded on itself by virtue of the
3:24
Speaker 1: fact that Detective Hector Polanco was the detective who railroaded Chris,
3:30
Speaker 1: who allowed the actual perpetrator to remain free. It's hard
3:34
Speaker 1: to overstate the misdeeds that he committed, not just in
3:40
Speaker 1: your case, but in many others. John, Can you tell
3:43
Speaker 1: us about this Polonco character and what his history tells us.
3:47
Speaker 1: And this is even before Chris ever had the misfortune
3:51
Speaker 1: of coming on to his radar.
3:53
Speaker 3: We didn't know about mister Polanco until we got involved
3:56
Speaker 3: with Chris's case, of course, but I think we were
4:00
Speaker 3: investigating that we had learned that he had had a
4:03
Speaker 3: history of playing somewhat loose with the facts. I guess
4:06
Speaker 3: you could say on some other cases.
4:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean his name featured prominently and in the
4:13
Speaker 1: most sinister ways in the cases of Alan Causey, Bruce Bowser,
4:18
Speaker 1: Richard osase Edia, a Nigerian student who falsely confessed if.
4:23
Speaker 3: I remember right. One of them was called the Yogurt
4:26
Speaker 3: shop cases. I think he had been instrumental in creating
4:31
Speaker 3: some false confessions in that case.
4:33
Speaker 1: The infamous Yogurt Chop murders took place in December nineteen
4:37
Speaker 1: ninety one, where four girls were murdered and the crimate
4:40
Speaker 1: remained unsolved for eight years, And that's when police announced
4:44
Speaker 1: the rest of four suspects who had come under the
4:46
Speaker 1: radar after very suspicious confessions that were very similar to
4:53
Speaker 1: Chris's and that were not coincidentally conducted by Detective Polanco.
4:58
Speaker 3: So we knew that he had some kind of history,
5:00
Speaker 3: and we do know that he was in charge of
5:02
Speaker 3: the case for Chris and led that interrogation. There were
5:06
Speaker 3: other people in the room at the same time, but
5:08
Speaker 3: I think he was the I think he called himself
5:10
Speaker 3: the bogey man.
5:12
Speaker 1: Let's just say that Chris, being sort of a mild
5:16
Speaker 1: mannered honor student, was not prepared in any way when
5:20
Speaker 1: he was interrogated by Detective Bilanco. Now let's go back
5:25
Speaker 1: to the crime itself, Okay, because this crime I think
5:29
Speaker 1: really shocked the local community, and brace yourself. On October
5:34
Speaker 1: twenty fourth of nineteen eighty eight, a twenty year old
5:37
Speaker 1: girl named Nancy the Priest was working alone in a
5:40
Speaker 1: Pizza Hut restaurant in Austin, Texas, and it was during
5:43
Speaker 1: her shift that the store was robbed. The Pizza Hut
5:46
Speaker 1: was robbed, and she was tied up with her bra
5:49
Speaker 1: raped and then shot in the head. Now, when this happened, you,
5:53
Speaker 1: of course lived in the area. Where were you and
5:57
Speaker 1: your co defendant, Richard Danziger I'm talking about, of course,
6:00
Speaker 1: where were you, guys? And when did you first hear
6:02
Speaker 1: about this?
6:03
Speaker 2: Well, me and Richard worked at different pizza huts when
6:07
Speaker 2: the crime happened. So when that crime happened, Richard was
6:11
Speaker 2: late for a shift at his pizza hut. So they
6:15
Speaker 2: called the apartment and I didn't answer the phone. One
6:18
Speaker 2: of my other roommates censored it. You know, I heard
6:20
Speaker 2: the phone, I rolled back to sleep, and then I
6:22
Speaker 2: woke up and I turned on the news, and that's
6:25
Speaker 2: when I saw the coverage. So I was shocked as
6:30
Speaker 2: much as everybody else in Austin, and particularly that I
6:34
Speaker 2: was an employee at another pizza hut.
6:35
Speaker 1: And police they began investigating pizza hut workers because they believed,
6:39
Speaker 1: I don't know whether they had reason to believe it,
6:41
Speaker 1: but they did believe that a master key was used
6:43
Speaker 1: to gain entry to the restaurant. And of course, where
6:48
Speaker 1: this starts to, you know, really go downhill fast, is
6:52
Speaker 1: that a few days later, an employee at the pizza
6:56
Speaker 1: hut saw you, Chris and Richard, who was only an
6:58
Speaker 1: eighteen year old kid at this time, right, eating pizza,
7:01
Speaker 1: drinking beer in the restaurant and raising a toast, or
7:05
Speaker 1: so they thought to the victim in this case, in
7:08
Speaker 1: her honor. And you guys worked at different pizza huts
7:12
Speaker 1: in the area, and so this was when detectives had
7:16
Speaker 1: this sort of Eureka moment or whatever, and decided that
7:20
Speaker 1: you must be good for it, because otherwise, why else
7:24
Speaker 1: would you be acting this way. I mean, this is
7:26
Speaker 1: obviously nothing like evidence. So what happened next?
7:31
Speaker 2: Several days later, two Austin detectives went to the pizza
7:36
Speaker 2: hut where I worked at in downtown Austin. It was
7:39
Speaker 2: not Polanco. It was some white detective and this female
7:43
Speaker 2: Espanily detective that showed up. They wanted to ask me
7:47
Speaker 2: questions about a burgery, so they drove me to the
7:49
Speaker 2: police station. They asked me some maybe two or three
7:52
Speaker 2: questions about some burglary, which was nothing, but it didn't
7:57
Speaker 2: take about five minutes, and then they shifted me to
8:01
Speaker 2: what I now know is the interrogation room. After they left,
8:04
Speaker 2: then barges in Hector Bolanco, and he looks me up
8:09
Speaker 2: and down. Look, I mean, he looks me from head
8:12
Speaker 2: to toe and he tells me, do you know what
8:15
Speaker 2: they called me on street in Spanish? And I have
8:19
Speaker 2: no idea, So that he tells me that they call
8:21
Speaker 2: him the boogeyman. I guess he's trying to instill fear
8:24
Speaker 2: in me. Then he starts asking me questions about the
8:28
Speaker 2: pizza robbery, and I tell him I don't know anything
8:31
Speaker 2: about it. And then he starts launching into this if
8:36
Speaker 2: you know something about this crime or this murder or
8:38
Speaker 2: this robbery, and if you don't cooperate with us, you're
8:42
Speaker 2: going to get the death penalty. He started using the
8:44
Speaker 2: death penalty from right off the top. If you don't
8:47
Speaker 2: tell us, you're going to die. And I mean, it
8:49
Speaker 2: was relentless, and I kept saying, I don't know what
8:52
Speaker 2: you're talking about. If I knew what, I would certainly cooperate,
8:56
Speaker 2: but I don't know anything. And this is a turgetion.
9:00
Speaker 2: It took hours. He would walk out, and then another detective,
9:05
Speaker 2: the poor good cop after Malaysia, so saying, hey, my
9:09
Speaker 2: partners are hot head, just tell us what you know
9:12
Speaker 2: and then you can go home. He walks out and
9:15
Speaker 2: walks Polanco again starts threatening me with a death penalty.
9:19
Speaker 2: At some point he walks out and a female spanded
9:23
Speaker 2: detective and this is I think a couple of hours
9:25
Speaker 2: into the interrogation, asked, what do you think I can
9:28
Speaker 2: have an attorney? And she said no. She got rips
9:31
Speaker 2: that you can't have one. So you're officially charged. So
9:35
Speaker 2: we all know that that's not right. But at that time,
9:39
Speaker 2: she walked out, and then Polanco walks back in starts
9:43
Speaker 2: threatening me with a death penalty again. She grabbed my arm,
9:47
Speaker 2: tap my arm, the needles are gonna go one of
9:49
Speaker 2: those veins or something like that. I'm gonna make sure
9:52
Speaker 2: I'm there to see it. And it took hours, and
9:56
Speaker 2: at some point they just broke me down. Polanco had say,
10:00
Speaker 2: you know, I'm getting tired of your bullshit. I'm just
10:03
Speaker 2: gonna put you in jail, and in there, you're going
10:05
Speaker 2: to be fresh meat for the prisoners because you're young.
10:08
Speaker 2: I know you don't have a record. He and you
10:10
Speaker 2: had to have a record. When he turned prison house rate.
10:14
Speaker 2: That was the end of my rope. I told him,
10:16
Speaker 2: what do you want me to say? I wanted it over.
10:18
Speaker 2: I just wanted to go home. That first interrogation, they
10:22
Speaker 2: were fixated on Richard Danziger. They said, did Richard Danziger?
10:27
Speaker 2: Did he come back and tell you? So the first
10:30
Speaker 2: statement that they forced me into signing was that Richard
10:35
Speaker 2: did it and he came home from the apartment and
10:38
Speaker 2: told me.
10:39
Speaker 1: And then they gave you a confession to sign. And
10:43
Speaker 1: here's the crazy thing. They didn't even need to write
10:45
Speaker 1: the confession because this Polanco, the detective, has used the
10:51
Speaker 1: same exact confession on two previous suspects. All he was
10:56
Speaker 1: doing was whiting out the names, just white it out
10:59
Speaker 1: and then put in the name Chris o'choa sign here.
11:03
Speaker 1: I mean, this is madness, this is America, right.
11:06
Speaker 2: And so they brought Richard and they said he had
11:10
Speaker 2: to face's accuser. They took me to see him. Shortly
11:14
Speaker 2: that after they pulled me out and then I asked,
11:17
Speaker 2: can I go home now? And they said no, we're
11:19
Speaker 2: afraid for your safety. He just gave a statement against Richard.
11:23
Speaker 2: He could hurt you. We're going to put you up
11:24
Speaker 2: at a hotel in Austin. Well on Quin mentioned the DNA,
11:28
Speaker 2: some new science and you can tell them you're there.
11:31
Speaker 1: You're not.
11:32
Speaker 2: Said we need you to give blood samples, hair samples.
11:35
Speaker 2: Of course, the DNA at the time and eighty eight
11:38
Speaker 2: was not as advanced as it is now. But I said, sure,
11:43
Speaker 2: if that's going to help you show that I wasn't there.
11:46
Speaker 2: So they took me to the hospital. I gave them
11:48
Speaker 2: blood samples, hair samples that I cooperated.
11:51
Speaker 3: They did do a rape kid Unfortunately this was late eighties.
11:55
Speaker 3: They did do some DNA analysis, However, it was not
11:59
Speaker 3: the kind of DNA analysis that later proved Chris's innocence.
12:04
Speaker 3: In Richard's innocence, it was a more primitive form called
12:07
Speaker 3: d Q alpha, and it showed that one in six
12:12
Speaker 3: Hispanic Americans could have done this, and Chris was among
12:15
Speaker 3: the one in the six, and so they used that
12:18
Speaker 3: as some degree of evidence. They also had a hair
12:22
Speaker 3: that was found on the body of Nancy DePriest and
12:25
Speaker 3: they looked through a microscope with that hair and they
12:28
Speaker 3: said that is consistent with the hair of Richard. And
12:34
Speaker 3: they made a big deal out of that, showing it
12:37
Speaker 3: looks like his hair, it is his hair. And you know,
12:41
Speaker 3: they didn't have the benefit of DNA analysis that hair,
12:44
Speaker 3: which would later show that it excluded Richard. You know,
12:47
Speaker 3: the technology improved later, but at the time they made
12:51
Speaker 3: a bigger deal out of that hair than was justified.
12:55
Speaker 1: So they're coercing you with threats of prison, rape, and
12:59
Speaker 1: the death penalty while also using the junk science of
13:03
Speaker 1: har microscopy, which don't even get me started on how
13:06
Speaker 1: subjective and meaningless, utterly meaningless that is. But not only that,
13:12
Speaker 1: they're using this primitive DNA testing, acting like being able
13:15
Speaker 1: to say that you and the actual assailant fall into
13:18
Speaker 1: the same sixteen percent of the Mexican population, which basically
13:21
Speaker 1: comes down to about one in six Mexicans. I mean,
13:25
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable that this was even considered or ultimately past
13:29
Speaker 1: as evidence. But okay, so now they've got the statement
13:33
Speaker 1: about Richard out of you, but they're still only halfway done.
13:37
Speaker 1: So it's a Friday, and they basically kidnapped you, call
13:41
Speaker 1: it what it is, and put you up at a
13:42
Speaker 1: hotel for the weekend. I mean, you could have left,
13:46
Speaker 1: but you didn't know that, right, I mean, that's that's
13:49
Speaker 1: another sick thing about this. And now Monday rolls around
13:54
Speaker 1: and they've got even more dirty tricks up their sleeve.
13:57
Speaker 2: So comes Monday, Holanko and the other detective Malaysia show
14:02
Speaker 2: up to the hotel room take me. They want to
14:04
Speaker 2: take me back to station to ask me more questions.
14:08
Speaker 2: But then they said that they wanted me to take
14:12
Speaker 2: a polygraph test. A lion took to polygraph test. They said,
14:17
Speaker 2: I registered deception. I was an a kid. I don't know.
14:21
Speaker 2: It was a stress test and not a light detective test.
14:24
Speaker 2: They said we think you were in there.
14:26
Speaker 3: I think the main purpose of a lie detective test
14:28
Speaker 3: is whatever it might yield, they are going to go
14:32
Speaker 3: back to the suspect and say, well, you failed it,
14:36
Speaker 3: and now we have that against you, and it just
14:38
Speaker 3: gives them a reason to say, well, I guess maybe
14:41
Speaker 3: I should confess because apparently they think I was lying.
14:44
Speaker 3: But part of their technique is to make lies about
14:48
Speaker 3: the evidence they have, and they try to convince you
14:50
Speaker 3: that they know you're guilty. Your only way out of
14:53
Speaker 3: it is to confess. And I think when someone I
14:56
Speaker 3: think it could be anybody, but especially young people or
14:58
Speaker 3: people who are nai is confronted with a detective saying
15:03
Speaker 3: we have evidence that isn't true, but you don't know that,
15:07
Speaker 3: and your only way out of this is to confess,
15:11
Speaker 3: and that's the only way your life is going to
15:13
Speaker 3: be spared or you're not going to be thrown into
15:15
Speaker 3: a jail cell as fresh meat.
15:17
Speaker 1: And in this case, my understanding is not only did
15:21
Speaker 1: they do all the things that you talked about, Chris,
15:23
Speaker 1: but also Polanco threw a chair at you, showed you
15:27
Speaker 1: photographs of death row where you're going to end up
15:29
Speaker 1: if you didn't confess, and there's a quote from him
15:33
Speaker 1: that sends the chills up my spine where he said, quote,
15:37
Speaker 1: we're going to charge you with this crime, whether you
15:38
Speaker 1: had anything to do with it or not, because this
15:40
Speaker 1: is a real big case and they want somebody.
15:44
Speaker 2: So now Polanco wants me to say that I was
15:47
Speaker 2: in the Pizza Hut with Richard allegedly saying that I
15:51
Speaker 2: and Richard rape Nancy the priest, and that we did
15:55
Speaker 2: all kinds of horrible things. But so he started taping it.
15:59
Speaker 2: He said, well, now, when you walked at the Pizza
16:00
Speaker 2: Hunt with Richard, was there an item that what was
16:04
Speaker 2: in there? I didn't know, and I would stop and stutter,
16:08
Speaker 2: and he would say, well, was it there an apron there? Oh? Yeah,
16:13
Speaker 2: that was an apron. So he would stop the tape,
16:16
Speaker 2: rewind it, and then I would repeat what he wanted
16:19
Speaker 2: me to say, and he said, well, tell us what
16:23
Speaker 2: color the april once as well? Black or red? I
16:27
Speaker 2: don't know. I kept guessing the whole publish spectrum. So
16:30
Speaker 2: I got it right. Then he would stop the tape,
16:33
Speaker 2: rewind it and record it. You know, he will coach
16:36
Speaker 2: me on what to say. So the tape of that
16:40
Speaker 2: late statement he was feeding me all the details.
16:42
Speaker 1: So the state offered to give you a life sentence.
16:45
Speaker 1: What a great deal that is? Not for something for
16:47
Speaker 1: doing nothing, for having a toast, basically right. So I
16:51
Speaker 1: offered to give you a life sentence if you could
16:52
Speaker 1: deplete guilty and testify against Richard. And your alternative, of course,
16:55
Speaker 1: was to face the death penalty. So after two twelve
16:58
Speaker 1: hour interrogation sessions, think about how long that is to
17:01
Speaker 1: be stuck in an airless room. I'll talk to the
17:04
Speaker 1: audience now. Of course, with these people who are literally
17:07
Speaker 1: trying to take your life away from you. You signed
17:09
Speaker 1: the confessions which were totally concocted by the police, with
17:13
Speaker 1: the white out and the whole thing. I mean, did
17:16
Speaker 1: you even have an attorney at this point.
17:19
Speaker 2: When those statements are signed? I never had an attorney.
17:22
Speaker 2: I didn't get an attorney until I was actually charged
17:25
Speaker 2: and waned, and I believe a magistrate she asked me,
17:28
Speaker 2: do you have an attorney, misscho So I do not.
17:32
Speaker 2: I said, do you know what you're charged with? You
17:34
Speaker 2: was shocked. Recess to court took me into her chambers
17:39
Speaker 2: and I remember she calling somebody another daight. I don't
17:41
Speaker 2: know what she called. She was said, why has this
17:44
Speaker 2: man not been afforded an attorney yet? That's when the
17:48
Speaker 2: attorney stepped in the defense attorneys. I was appointed defense
17:53
Speaker 2: attorney and I told him exactly what I'm telling you,
17:56
Speaker 2: how these statements came about. And she said, there's no
17:59
Speaker 2: way an innocent person would give such a detailed confession.
18:04
Speaker 2: So he didn't believe that. You know, they coerced me.
18:08
Speaker 2: So at the next quarter appearance, I asked I wanted
18:10
Speaker 2: to fire the attorney, then insteaded appointing another defense attorney
18:14
Speaker 2: who had more experience, and I told him the same
18:18
Speaker 2: story when I interviewed with him the first time, and
18:22
Speaker 2: I said, isn't it your job through my innocence, you
18:25
Speaker 2: should investigate this? He said, no, my job is to
18:29
Speaker 2: save your life. In a way, he was right, but no,
18:32
Speaker 2: your job is to prove innocence. First, my defense attorneys
18:36
Speaker 2: did no investigation. You mentioned law enforcement had a theory
18:41
Speaker 2: that a master key was used to get into the
18:43
Speaker 2: pizza hut because there was no evidence of breaking of
18:46
Speaker 2: an entry into the pizza hut. This pizza hut two doors.
18:50
Speaker 2: I know the detective wanted me to say that we
18:52
Speaker 2: had a master key to get in a pizza hut
18:54
Speaker 2: and we came into a certain door. Right, I don't
18:56
Speaker 2: know what door it was. But after John the Innis's
19:00
Speaker 2: project investigated the whole thing, it turns out that there's
19:05
Speaker 2: no way I could have gone through that door. That
19:07
Speaker 2: polock hoomness is no way because that key didn't open
19:10
Speaker 2: that door. There's no way because that door could not
19:14
Speaker 2: be opened with any key. It was just jammed, had
19:17
Speaker 2: to be opened from the inside.
19:19
Speaker 1: Right. The classic hallmark of a false confession when the
19:22
Speaker 1: facts of the crime scene don't even match the information
19:24
Speaker 1: that they're feeding to.
19:25
Speaker 2: You had, mister start. My defense attorneys gone and see
19:30
Speaker 2: how wiable it is is go ask questions. The prosecutor
19:34
Speaker 2: should have done that. Your job as an attorney is
19:37
Speaker 2: to look at the conficion Does this really match the
19:41
Speaker 2: evidence that these guys have? And they don't, But the
19:46
Speaker 2: prosecute should be the one, Hey, I can't use this.
19:51
Speaker 3: I think the defense attorneys looked at the confession and
19:54
Speaker 3: they thought that's the end. There's no point in investigating
19:58
Speaker 3: this any further. They didn't look into like, I wonder
20:02
Speaker 3: if this confession could be suppressed because he did ask
20:06
Speaker 3: for an attorney. They didn't look at that. They didn't
20:09
Speaker 3: look at the alibi evidence that there was, they didn't
20:11
Speaker 3: look at the physical evidence that there was. They just
20:14
Speaker 3: saw the confession and said, well, that's he's going to
20:17
Speaker 3: be convicted. So my job is to make sure he
20:19
Speaker 3: doesn't get the death penalty. So we can do that
20:21
Speaker 3: by having Chris plead guilty. And you know, when your
20:25
Speaker 3: attorney's telling you that Chris believed that. And when I
20:30
Speaker 3: called the defense attorney when we were investigating it, this
20:33
Speaker 3: is twelve years later, we asked him what he had
20:36
Speaker 3: done and he said like, well, did Chris tell you
20:39
Speaker 3: that his fingerprints were found on the gun and things
20:42
Speaker 3: like that? And I said no, So I go back
20:46
Speaker 3: to Chris and say, Chris, you didn't tell us your
20:48
Speaker 3: fingerprints were on the gun. And of course it turns
20:50
Speaker 3: out that that was just a lie, or that he
20:54
Speaker 3: had forgotten that Polanco and made up his own evidence
20:57
Speaker 3: to make him think that Chris was guilty. There were
20:59
Speaker 3: no fingerp rents on any gun, so he just I
21:02
Speaker 3: think early on, decided my job is to keep him
21:05
Speaker 3: from being executed, and therefore we're going to push this
21:09
Speaker 3: flea through and get him life in prison. And that's
21:11
Speaker 3: exactly what they did.
21:13
Speaker 2: One of the reasons I essentially pled guilty after a
21:17
Speaker 2: year in jail was because apparently my defense attorney and
21:21
Speaker 2: I don't know who else was calling my mom pretty
21:23
Speaker 2: much every day telling her that she should get me
21:26
Speaker 2: to plead guilty or she's going to lose her son.
21:30
Speaker 2: You're going to murder her son. So essentially my mom
21:33
Speaker 2: got to the point of a stroke, was brought on
21:36
Speaker 2: by stress, and at that point I called whoever I
21:40
Speaker 2: had to call, I'll plead guilty. I played guilty for
21:43
Speaker 2: my mom. So at that point, the DA tells me, okay,
21:46
Speaker 2: we're going to charge you with rape and they're trying
21:48
Speaker 2: to get Richard on capitol murder.
21:51
Speaker 1: So at this point your fate was sealed. Chris. You
21:54
Speaker 1: had nobody to help you. The system had failed you
21:58
Speaker 1: and failed as the priest as well, and the public
22:00
Speaker 1: and her family and everybody else, and you were doomed.
22:03
Speaker 1: Part of your deal was that you were basically compelled
22:06
Speaker 1: to testify against Danziger. Right you were convicted, as was
22:10
Speaker 1: Danziger in February nineteen ninety and both of you were
22:14
Speaker 1: sent to life in prison.
22:16
Speaker 2: The moment to gab Will hit any sentencement. It came
22:20
Speaker 2: crashing down. I was like, I wasn't shocked. First night
22:26
Speaker 2: in the Texas prison when they slammed door shut, the
22:30
Speaker 2: metal clangs once that door slammed. That was when night crap.
22:39
Speaker 2: I mean here now.
22:53
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Traig
22:56
Speaker 1: through its pro bono program, Greenberg Traig leverages it's more
22:59
Speaker 1: than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to
23:02
Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal
23:05
Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice,
23:09
Speaker 1: Greenberg Trowing attorneys have exonerated in freedomand in Philadelphia, represent
23:13
Speaker 1: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as
23:16
Speaker 1: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and receive the American part Association's
23:20
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation
23:24
Speaker 1: for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is
23:28
Speaker 1: reimagining what big law can be because a more just
23:31
Speaker 1: world only happens by design.
23:43
Speaker 2: As time went on, it felt like the world got
23:46
Speaker 2: about me. You know, fewer people right, And I know
23:49
Speaker 2: I tried my best to survive, and I know Richard
23:52
Speaker 2: had it worse. But I know at some point I
23:57
Speaker 2: had already done ten years. I used to see the newspaper,
24:00
Speaker 2: my hotel newspaper. All my friends from high school had kids,
24:05
Speaker 2: had wives, had careers, and I felt like such a
24:09
Speaker 2: bad through no fall of my home. So Christmas Eve,
24:13
Speaker 2: I didn't get a Christmas card that year. On time,
24:17
Speaker 2: I had lost hope. So I made up my mind.
24:20
Speaker 2: I went up to my cell and I broke open
24:24
Speaker 2: a razor blade because that night I was going through
24:27
Speaker 2: this pain. That alcohol drug doesn't get rid of the pain.
24:33
Speaker 2: So I wanted to run it up my arm so
24:35
Speaker 2: that I could bleed out and just send it. But
24:39
Speaker 2: at that point I remember what the nuns told me
24:42
Speaker 2: in Tetholic school, that I didn't have the right to
24:45
Speaker 2: take anybody's life, not even my own, because God gave
24:48
Speaker 2: it to me. So by through the razor blade and
24:51
Speaker 2: I flushed it and I got through that night. Somehow
24:56
Speaker 2: I grabbed onto faith the way I survived. I went
25:00
Speaker 2: to school. Music was my escape. That's what got me
25:04
Speaker 2: through prison, school, Faith and the radio.
25:09
Speaker 1: What I think we have to shine a light on
25:13
Speaker 1: is the fact that behind the scenes and unbeknownst to you.
25:18
Speaker 1: In February of nineteen ninety eight, a man named Aquem
25:21
Speaker 1: Joseph Marino, a convict who was serving three life sentences
25:26
Speaker 1: in the Texas Prison for aggravated robbery, wrote a letter
25:29
Speaker 1: to the governor, who was George W. Bush at that time,
25:32
Speaker 1: and mister Marino had become a born again Christian who,
25:35
Speaker 1: as part of his AA and Narcotics Anonymous program, had
25:38
Speaker 1: been obligated to confess. Right. It's part of the cleansing,
25:42
Speaker 1: the twelve step program, right. And as part of that,
25:45
Speaker 1: he felt obligated to confess to the murder that he
25:48
Speaker 1: had committed, which was the one that you were charged
25:50
Speaker 1: with of mis the Priest. His letter began it was
25:53
Speaker 1: quote remurder confession, you know, ra Colan murder confession. In
25:58
Speaker 1: the letter, mister Marino said, quote my conscience sickens me.
26:02
Speaker 1: End quote, and he went on to say that he
26:03
Speaker 1: alone raped and murdered ms the Priest, that you and
26:07
Speaker 1: Danziger were not involved. Quote I tell you this, sir,
26:10
Speaker 1: I did this awful crime and I was alone. Now
26:13
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets even deeper, okay. Marino said that
26:19
Speaker 1: evidence tying him to the crime and him alone, including
26:22
Speaker 1: the victim's keys could be found at his parents home.
26:27
Speaker 1: He said that he had begun writing and confessing to
26:29
Speaker 1: the police years earlier, back in ninety six, as well
26:33
Speaker 1: as a newspaper and even the ACLU, but after getting
26:36
Speaker 1: no response, he was now going all the way to
26:40
Speaker 1: the governor governor push to take action. After the police
26:44
Speaker 1: received another letter from Marino that contained a detailed description
26:47
Speaker 1: of the crime scene, they finally began reinvestigating. And when
26:50
Speaker 1: they went to Marino's parents' home, what did they find?
26:55
Speaker 1: Guess what? They found the keys, as he said they would,
26:57
Speaker 1: as well as the other evidence, including bank ouches and
27:00
Speaker 1: a pistol. So this should have been at that very moment,
27:05
Speaker 1: this should be over. They should have come right to
27:08
Speaker 1: the prison apologize to you and to Danziger. I would
27:12
Speaker 1: say they should have just yanked you right out of
27:14
Speaker 1: there that day, but you know that's not how it works.
27:15
Speaker 1: But that process should have been started immediately with urgency,
27:19
Speaker 1: because every day in that prison was risking your life
27:21
Speaker 1: and his and his case, he almost lost his life.
27:25
Speaker 1: But finally they went to mister Danziger and to you,
27:28
Speaker 1: and unfortunately Danzeger had sustained permanent brain damage and had
27:32
Speaker 1: injuries while he was in prison and was now in
27:34
Speaker 1: a mental institution. A tragedy upon another tragedy. But you, Chris,
27:39
Speaker 1: at that time, told the same story that you had
27:40
Speaker 1: told the trial.
27:41
Speaker 2: At that point I knew that there was something going
27:43
Speaker 2: on in the case. At some point I ended the
27:46
Speaker 2: interview saying, look, I did this crime. Let me do
27:50
Speaker 2: my time. And the only reason I did that to
27:52
Speaker 2: the cops told him that is I wanted to throw
27:55
Speaker 2: him off a scent because I thought, if these guys
27:58
Speaker 2: sniff it, I'm claiming innocent. What if there's evidence of
28:01
Speaker 2: innocence and they go destroy like chelsh agridem should kind
28:05
Speaker 2: of you know, they were trying to link me and
28:08
Speaker 2: Richard to a king Reno.
28:10
Speaker 3: I think they just could not get it through their
28:12
Speaker 3: heads that it's possible that Chris could have lied in
28:16
Speaker 3: the confession. You would never confess to a murder he
28:19
Speaker 3: didn't do. And so their theory when Marino came on
28:22
Speaker 3: the scene was that, Okay, it must have been three
28:25
Speaker 3: of you, and we know Chris confessed, so we know
28:29
Speaker 3: he's did it. We know Danziger did it. So if
28:31
Speaker 3: Marino's confessing and he's got the gun, and he's got
28:34
Speaker 3: the key. I think their mindset was now that Marino's
28:37
Speaker 3: saying he did it, Okay, it must have been the three.
28:39
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, they showed me photo lineups.
28:43
Speaker 2: I mean, I recognize myself in one and I recognized
28:46
Speaker 2: denzigrin the other one. But then they showed me another lineup.
28:49
Speaker 2: I guess we Marino. At the time, I didn't know
28:52
Speaker 2: anybody who was confessed. I had no idea. They asked
28:55
Speaker 2: me why, and I didn't recognize anybody on that photo.
29:00
Speaker 2: I guess Marina was in there. And now that I recall,
29:04
Speaker 2: the Texas ranger and the cop looked at themselves when
29:07
Speaker 2: they saw I did wreck because Marino.
29:08
Speaker 3: And they did do some investigation on that to say
29:11
Speaker 3: were they ever in the same prison together? Did they
29:13
Speaker 3: have any communication with each other? And all that came
29:17
Speaker 3: out that no, there's no way that those people had
29:21
Speaker 3: ever interacted or intersected in their lives.
29:24
Speaker 2: So immediately after that, there was a friend of mine
29:27
Speaker 2: who was leaving on parole, and I told him a
29:29
Speaker 2: little bit about what was going on in the case, but
29:31
Speaker 2: I told him that I needed him to reach out
29:34
Speaker 2: to Barry Scheck and Innes's project in New York, and
29:38
Speaker 2: he did I think he mailed them, and I think, well,
29:41
Speaker 2: you know, they have a lot of cases, the backlogs.
29:43
Speaker 2: So they emailed some addresses of innocence projects at that
29:48
Speaker 2: time in the country. But on that list that they said,
29:51
Speaker 2: I saw the Wisconsin Innoces Project and I don't know
29:53
Speaker 2: why I circled that Wisconsin. I had no clue even
29:57
Speaker 2: where Wisconsin was on the map. I just circled it
30:02
Speaker 2: and I wrote a letter. A couple of weeks later,
30:05
Speaker 2: I get a phone call from Wisconsin and it's project.
30:08
Speaker 2: It took my case.
30:10
Speaker 1: This is now June ninety nine, and this is when,
30:14
Speaker 1: of course, in steps the Wisconsin Innocence Project be headed
30:19
Speaker 1: by my friend Keith Findley, who people have heard his
30:21
Speaker 1: name on the podcast. He's got an incredible reputation, has
30:25
Speaker 1: done incredible work, and of course John Pray.
30:29
Speaker 3: Wisconsin's the project did get Chris's letter. The thing that
30:32
Speaker 3: grabbed our attention was that there was evidence taken from
30:36
Speaker 3: the rape kit. Well, now we have some new DNA technology,
30:40
Speaker 3: we could re examine the DNA evidence to see if
30:45
Speaker 3: Richard and Chris could be excluded. So what we did
30:48
Speaker 3: is sent a letter to the authorities in Texas saying
30:51
Speaker 3: we are representing Chris or we're looking into Chris's case,
30:55
Speaker 3: and we want you to preserve any kind of evidence
30:59
Speaker 3: that may have existed. The authorities in Texas were cooperative
31:04
Speaker 3: and let's yeah, let's do tests as evidence. And so
31:07
Speaker 3: we didn't have to fight for that and didn't take
31:09
Speaker 3: too long to have the testing exclude Chris and Richard
31:14
Speaker 3: and then match Marino. So at that point the case
31:17
Speaker 3: became not too difficult because they realized they got the
31:22
Speaker 3: wrong guy. But like I said, they still had to
31:24
Speaker 3: investigate whether there was a connection between Marino and Chris
31:27
Speaker 3: and Richard.
31:29
Speaker 1: Right, But you and the wisconsinenci's project, knowing that you
31:32
Speaker 1: could have been up against a well an unscrupulous prosecutor,
31:37
Speaker 1: you continue to investigate. What else did you find out?
31:41
Speaker 3: So what we were doing in the meantime, once we
31:43
Speaker 3: had the DNA test, as we were looking at all
31:46
Speaker 3: other aspects of the case and calling other witnesses. There
31:50
Speaker 3: was one particular witness who said that the police had
31:54
Speaker 3: threatened to take her son away if she didn't testify
31:57
Speaker 3: in a certain way, and so there were all kinds
32:01
Speaker 3: of things like that. The medical examiner. It was very interesting.
32:06
Speaker 3: The medical examiner was privy to Chris's confession and so
32:10
Speaker 3: they knew the kind of injuries. Well, one of the
32:12
Speaker 3: things they said in the confession was there had been
32:16
Speaker 3: an anal rape. So they said, okay, let's look for
32:20
Speaker 3: anal tears or evidence of an anal rape. Well, it
32:24
Speaker 3: turns out once the confession is known to be false,
32:27
Speaker 3: because the DNA proves its false, you go back to
32:30
Speaker 3: the medical examiner. He says, oh, upon second look, I
32:33
Speaker 3: guess that was a terror caused by the instruments that
32:36
Speaker 3: were used to look in that area instead of oh,
32:40
Speaker 3: this is actual evidence of a rape. So you know,
32:43
Speaker 3: when you're doing a medical examination and you have a
32:45
Speaker 3: predisposed notion that, oh, this was from an anal rape
32:49
Speaker 3: because that's what the confession said, well then you kind
32:52
Speaker 3: of see what you want to see. So there are
32:54
Speaker 3: all kinds of things that we could look at later
32:57
Speaker 3: that once you know that that's a false confession, the
33:01
Speaker 3: house of cards falls quickly.
33:03
Speaker 1: And Chris, you had mentioned the part of your false
33:06
Speaker 1: confession about the alleged master key and how the door
33:10
Speaker 1: was actually jammed. It couldn't have been opened by any
33:12
Speaker 1: key right, So just one of the many inconvenient ways
33:18
Speaker 1: in which your false confession didn't match reality. What else
33:22
Speaker 1: was learned about how Marino gained entry to the pizza hut?
33:25
Speaker 2: What was later found out is that Marino said that
33:30
Speaker 2: as the priest, lettermakers key disguise themselves a repair man
33:34
Speaker 2: or something like that.
33:35
Speaker 3: Really, a cursory examination of the evidence, the alibis, the
33:40
Speaker 3: physical evidence the keys, would have yielded pretty quickly that
33:46
Speaker 3: this has to be a false confession. But that wasn't
33:48
Speaker 3: in the repertoire of the attorneys, the police, the judges.
33:53
Speaker 3: No one was thinking of false confession as possible. You
33:56
Speaker 3: wouldn't confess to something you didn't do.
33:58
Speaker 1: So it turned out that the DNA evidence excluded Richard
34:02
Speaker 1: and Chris, but included Marino, and now it was going
34:06
Speaker 1: to be respected but confused by the false confession. The
34:11
Speaker 1: States still wanted to make sure that there was no
34:14
Speaker 1: connection between the guys and Marino before finally letting Chris
34:18
Speaker 1: and Richard go.
34:19
Speaker 3: So that took him longer than we were comfortable with.
34:22
Speaker 3: It took him a few months. Where Chris is sitting
34:24
Speaker 3: in prison where everybody knows he didn't do it. So
34:28
Speaker 3: that was agonizing for Chris. I know it was agonizing
34:31
Speaker 3: for us. But after a few months of figuring out
34:35
Speaker 3: whether any connections at all, they finally agreed to throw
34:40
Speaker 3: out this case for both Richard and Chris. So in
34:43
Speaker 3: the fall of two thousand, I think we were all
34:46
Speaker 3: certain this was going to happen. We had the agreement
34:48
Speaker 3: of the DA, we knew he would be getting out,
34:52
Speaker 3: but it was agonizing waiting for several months for the
34:56
Speaker 3: actual date. And I just remember being terrified that Chris
35:00
Speaker 3: is going to be assaulted by someone else in prison,
35:04
Speaker 3: or something's going to happen, and what are we waiting for?
35:07
Speaker 3: But we just couldn't get it done until January of
35:11
Speaker 3: two thousand and one, and that was That was a
35:15
Speaker 3: big day in Chris's life, in all of our lives,
35:18
Speaker 3: and it was quite a sensation in Austin. It was
35:23
Speaker 3: a very exciting day with a packed court room and
35:26
Speaker 3: dozens of news people and photographers.
35:30
Speaker 2: I remember vividly when I was they said I was
35:34
Speaker 2: free to leave. I guess I'm shocked the bailiff had
35:39
Speaker 2: to tell you to show show you know you can
35:41
Speaker 2: walk out the door. And I remember going on to
35:48
Speaker 2: see a cameras and at hearing my mom was there
35:54
Speaker 2: and I became very good friends. Well Ansis project did
35:58
Speaker 2: with the mother of net See the Priests, Jeanette Pop.
36:03
Speaker 2: I got to speak to her. I got my hunger.
36:06
Speaker 2: I you know, was I guess bittersweet that I got up,
36:10
Speaker 2: but you know her daughter let's gone. But I remember
36:15
Speaker 2: she was happy for me, and she gave me a
36:18
Speaker 2: welcome home gift. He watched present time meets nothing and
36:23
Speaker 2: there's no time. She said, Now time matters to you.
36:40
Speaker 2: I had support from my family. I think Dannis was
36:43
Speaker 2: project and John for I did an excellent job of
36:46
Speaker 2: keeping me grounded. Jumping really forward to just to say
36:51
Speaker 2: how instrumental John has been in my life. I know
36:55
Speaker 2: when I got accepted to law school in Wisconsin, I
36:58
Speaker 2: went up there to try to find an apartment, and
37:01
Speaker 2: you know, I had a lot of advice from mother's mentors.
37:04
Speaker 2: But when I went to get my first apartment in Madison,
37:08
Speaker 2: I remember John Pray went with me. He read over
37:12
Speaker 2: the lease, he looked sculpted out walking distance from the
37:16
Speaker 2: law school and from the bars, because I did, in
37:20
Speaker 2: turn with a judge before I went to law school,
37:23
Speaker 2: and he said, you know in law school, you're probably
37:25
Speaker 2: going to drink, so I would suggest getting an apartment
37:29
Speaker 2: walking distance to the bars so you can stumble home.
37:31
Speaker 2: But John was very, very instrumental in helping me.
37:35
Speaker 3: One other thing I wanted to double back on. I'm
37:38
Speaker 3: really glad Chris brought up Jeanette Pop, but I think
37:40
Speaker 3: it bears just a little bit more explanation. Janette Pop
37:44
Speaker 3: is the mother of the victim of Nancy DePriest in
37:47
Speaker 3: this case, she very early on identified with Chris, and
37:52
Speaker 3: one might say, well, why would she do that. Chris
37:56
Speaker 3: was convicted of killing her daughter, but she recognized that
38:00
Speaker 3: it was a false confession. And what pained her so
38:03
Speaker 3: much was that for twelve years, while Chris was in prison,
38:08
Speaker 3: she was under the mistaken belief that her daughter had
38:12
Speaker 3: been tortured, had been raped multiple times in this restaurant.
38:17
Speaker 3: And that was the story from the confession that she believed.
38:23
Speaker 3: And it turns out when we got the true story,
38:26
Speaker 3: what came. Marino said, A murder is a murder, and
38:30
Speaker 3: that can't be sugarcoated. But the torture, the multiple rapes,
38:36
Speaker 3: did not occur. It was a shot to the back
38:38
Speaker 3: of the head. And so this suffering that she had
38:41
Speaker 3: lived with and thought of her daughter's last hour of
38:46
Speaker 3: life of being an utter hell was what tortured her.
38:51
Speaker 3: And when she realized that it's because of this coerced
38:55
Speaker 3: false confession that made her believe that, you know, it
38:59
Speaker 3: just it just was such a relief to her that
39:02
Speaker 3: her daughter had not undergone the kinds of things that
39:06
Speaker 3: had been coerced from that confession. And that's one reason
39:09
Speaker 3: why Jeanette pop was such a strong ally of Chris
39:14
Speaker 3: and Richard.
39:15
Speaker 1: So, Chris, as we wind down the show here, is
39:17
Speaker 1: there anything you want to ask our audience, anything they
39:20
Speaker 1: can do for or with you, or an issue that
39:23
Speaker 1: you'd like to highlight.
39:25
Speaker 2: I think my biggest thing is donating to the Wisconsin
39:28
Speaker 2: Insterest Project. They're the reason why I'm here outside. But
39:33
Speaker 2: right now, what's on the forefront of my mind is
39:37
Speaker 2: the Melissa Lucille case out of Texas. When I saw
39:41
Speaker 2: that documentary, I just I got floored. She's innocent, plain
39:46
Speaker 2: and simple. Support. Melissa sees she's got just days till
39:51
Speaker 2: she's executed. She's murdered. I'm not going to say executed, murdered.
39:55
Speaker 2: That's what I asked the people to watch that documentary.
39:58
Speaker 2: Donate bring away as the social media right now, there's
40:02
Speaker 2: a petition that was sent to the governor or clemency
40:06
Speaker 2: from Alissa Luzio for pressure on Texas too. It really
40:11
Speaker 2: really irritates me and upsets me. This happened in two
40:14
Speaker 2: thousand and seven. Texas, the whole country at two thousand
40:19
Speaker 2: and seven. They know what mistakes they've done, what they
40:23
Speaker 2: do to people, and yet Texas has not learned their
40:29
Speaker 2: lesson at all, and they don't care all the pain
40:33
Speaker 2: that we exigneries have gone through. No, we testify in
40:37
Speaker 2: Congress and we do stuff like this so that others
40:40
Speaker 2: won't go through it. Yet Texas assists of doing the
40:46
Speaker 2: same thing over and over and over again. And until
40:52
Speaker 2: we get rid of these people working the system, our
40:56
Speaker 2: system is not going to work. It works if you
41:01
Speaker 2: have people that are doing it for the right reasons,
41:06
Speaker 2: not to get power, not to get money for apparently
41:09
Speaker 2: from the Melissable seal case, I see that's pretty honous.
41:14
Speaker 2: It was all about power and position.
41:17
Speaker 1: Chris, we'll have the same action steps here that we
41:20
Speaker 1: did last week for Melissa. She's scheduled for execution. I
41:23
Speaker 1: hate saying these words on April twenty seventh. This is
41:27
Speaker 1: not a drill, this is real, so please join us
41:31
Speaker 1: in saving her from imminent danger. We'll have the Wisconsin
41:36
Speaker 1: Intersce project linked in the bio as well. Please donate
41:39
Speaker 1: to help them continue the great work that they do,
41:42
Speaker 1: just like they did for Chris and so many others.
41:44
Speaker 1: And now, as we go to the closing of our show,
41:47
Speaker 1: which is called Closing Arguments, this is where, of course
41:50
Speaker 1: I'm gonna thank you for joining us today and sharing
41:53
Speaker 1: Chris's story with us. And now I'm just going to
41:55
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on, and just
41:58
Speaker 1: focus on the sound of your voice. Is you leave
42:01
Speaker 1: us with any and all final thoughts you want to
42:03
Speaker 1: share now, John, no offense, but we're going to save
42:05
Speaker 1: the best for last. And of course our guest of honor,
42:07
Speaker 1: Chris o'choa, is the man, so please start it off
42:11
Speaker 1: for us and then let Chris take us out.
42:15
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know how long you want me to
42:16
Speaker 3: go on. I could go on a long time about this,
42:18
Speaker 3: but I'll keep it reasonable. It's an extraordinary story in
42:24
Speaker 3: one way, you look at what happened. On the other hand,
42:28
Speaker 3: it's not unique. This happens with too much frequency, and
42:35
Speaker 3: if we don't learn from these situations, then we're destined
42:38
Speaker 3: to continue to repeat them. So it's an extraordinary story.
42:43
Speaker 3: It shows the weakness of confessions that they can be false.
42:46
Speaker 3: It shows the weakness of defense attorneys who don't do
42:50
Speaker 3: their job seriously. But it's more than that. It's a
42:53
Speaker 3: testament to the strength of Chris Ajo, who endured hell
42:58
Speaker 3: for twelve years, the hell of the interrogation room, those
43:03
Speaker 3: four days, the hell of going through a trial, and
43:07
Speaker 3: then the hell of twelve years of incarceration and then
43:11
Speaker 3: you get out. He could have given up, but what
43:14
Speaker 3: does he do. He decides to get his education completed.
43:17
Speaker 3: He finished his undergraduate degree, then he came to Wisconsin
43:21
Speaker 3: law school, went through three years of very hard, difficult work,
43:27
Speaker 3: worked in a district attorney's office for a time, worked
43:30
Speaker 3: with a Wisconsin innocence project. He really endured. I suppose
43:35
Speaker 3: you could say, hey, if you can get through prison,
43:37
Speaker 3: you can get through law school. And Chris endured. He's
43:39
Speaker 3: continued to show his dedication to public service and making
43:44
Speaker 3: sure these types of things don't happen. So the whole
43:46
Speaker 3: thing is really a tribute to Chris and his amazing
43:51
Speaker 3: spirit and energy to endure and make life better for
43:56
Speaker 3: the rest of us.
43:58
Speaker 2: Thank you, John, I said earlier, you know, for the
44:02
Speaker 2: Innocence Project, John Pray and the Gousninesss projects around the country. Justice,
44:10
Speaker 2: true justice, wouldn't be accomplished. What I see is tragic
44:18
Speaker 2: was happening in the law enforcement currently. I don't know
44:23
Speaker 2: where the disconnect is between law enforcement and normal citizens.
44:31
Speaker 2: When I was exonerated, right before I walked out of
44:34
Speaker 2: prisoner or I don't know what, shortly before, my Texas
44:38
Speaker 2: Attorney Bill Allison told me, look your case, the justice
44:42
Speaker 2: system fell apart at every angle. Everything failed you, and
44:46
Speaker 2: people are going to get scared, even people that don't
44:50
Speaker 2: get in trouble, they're going to lose faith in the system.
44:52
Speaker 2: And when people lose faith in the system, chaos happens.
44:58
Speaker 2: And he said, it would be good if you would
45:00
Speaker 2: come out and talk that the system's not bad. You
45:03
Speaker 2: got to inform it and there's a lot of things
45:05
Speaker 2: that needs to be done so that it worked the
45:07
Speaker 2: way it was intended to work. But he said, but
45:10
Speaker 2: you don't have to. You've already done enough, You've done time.
45:13
Speaker 2: You can walk away from this. You don't and anybody
45:16
Speaker 2: any faith. So I decided that I would start advocating
45:21
Speaker 2: for the system because in the end it was a
45:23
Speaker 2: judge that it was a court that got me exonerated
45:26
Speaker 2: and released me. But me and John Pray have talked
45:30
Speaker 2: to law enforcement. I mean, we have talked to these
45:33
Speaker 2: guys and academies that don't beat up the Look, you
45:38
Speaker 2: gotta be real careful in your investigations because once you
45:44
Speaker 2: said those recommended charges of the DA, you're already skewing
45:48
Speaker 2: the ball. The defense attorney will start looking at at
45:50
Speaker 2: a certain way if you're accusing something that you didn't do,
45:54
Speaker 2: but you're just the mere accusations, that will take a
45:58
Speaker 2: snowball effect. And I personally have told law enforcement, you
46:03
Speaker 2: guys have a big job to do, but you guys
46:06
Speaker 2: can't be rushing what you do. You gotta be careful
46:09
Speaker 2: because your people, they're not gonna trust you anymore. If
46:14
Speaker 2: these are realnful convictions, keep rapping, they're gonna lose shut.
46:17
Speaker 2: But fast forward to George Floyd. That only exposed what
46:25
Speaker 2: all of us then advocate for wrongfully convicted for justice
46:31
Speaker 2: and only confirmed what we already know. These cops beat
46:36
Speaker 2: killed the man on camera and the only reason we
46:40
Speaker 2: know because we have video. But now you see in
46:44
Speaker 2: the news officer response to a call, he gets shot.
46:47
Speaker 2: And now the law enforcement is crying all they're attacking us,
46:53
Speaker 2: but they failed to realize they're the reason that that
46:58
Speaker 2: is happening, because society has lost all faith and trust
47:06
Speaker 2: in law enforcement. Now you have chaos and the only
47:13
Speaker 2: mess I got law enforcement. You got to get it together.
47:17
Speaker 2: Stop blaming somebody else. I'm speechless in a sense. And
47:23
Speaker 2: it hurts all of us. Ex reaes over one hundred.
47:28
Speaker 2: How many of us are there now in the thousands,
47:33
Speaker 2: so that law enforcement would get direct together, courts, prosecutor.
47:40
Speaker 2: It has gotten worse, so our suffering essentially has been
47:47
Speaker 2: in vain the evidence system. Listen, will see it is
47:52
Speaker 2: still happening. I hope that the public. Hey, let's start
47:58
Speaker 2: electing DA's that are going to do right thing and
48:02
Speaker 2: start getting police chiefs that are going to do the writing.
48:07
Speaker 2: I'm not advocating for not arresting folks. You know you
48:12
Speaker 2: still have your un going to rust back people. There's
48:15
Speaker 2: some people in prison that I met that I don't
48:18
Speaker 2: want my family around them. Well let's get it right.
48:28
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
48:31
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis,
48:34
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production
48:38
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
48:41
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
48:45
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at
48:49
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
48:52
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both
48:55
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is
48:59
Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with
49:02
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one