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19. Evil Twins and Haunted Homes · Dumb Defenses

• Frankie: Hello and welcome back to the Dumb Defenses podcast, where we go around the world and through time to bring you the weirdest legal theories. I'm Frankie. Judah: And I'm Judah. Frankie: And I think Judah has the fresh hell for us this week. Judah: I do have fresh hell this week. Every week is a fresh nightmare. And the fresh nightmare that we're going to be talking about is what's going on with Title IX. So Frankie: Motion for a new timeline. Judah: we're we're in the worst timeline. What is Title IX, you might ask? Except for you're not asking, because you know what Title IX is. But other people might be asking. Frankie: I know what Title IX is. My mom is all about Title Nine. My mom is a retired gym teacher. Judah: Okay. so, nineteen sixty four, the Civil Rights Act is passed, and Title VI of the Civil Rights Act Prevents discrimination based on race for any program that receives federal funding, which includes every public school and almost every college or university in the United States of America. It does not protect against discrimination based on sex. So for the history part, I relied a lot on an article called Fifty Years of Progress, The Legal History of Title IX by Mondoc. and University of Wisconsin Madison University Health Services Reflect History page. so it's nineteen sixty eight and a woman named Bernice Sandler, who's now known as the godmother of Title IX finishes up her doctorate and she can't get a job. Sorry, this is nineteen sixty nine, not nineteen sixty eight. She goes and she finds a nineteen sixty eight executive order banning sex discrimination by federal contractors, and she realizes that most colleges have federal contracts. And Frankie: 'Cause that's why they can accept FAFSA and stuff like that. Judah: FAFSA there's so yeah, you know universities are extremely tied to federal funding. So she uses that executive order to file complaints against hundreds of different campuses and wrote to members of Congress. In nineteen seventy, the Women's Equity Action League files a class action complaint against universities nationwide and Sandler gathers evidence on admissions quotas, financial aid, hiring promotions and pay in these universities. There's an Oregon representative to Congress named Edith Green, and she notices these complaints. So in nineteen seventy she held a hearing on sex discrimination at federally funded universities. And she is joined by A couple other, you know, brave women in Congress and the Senate, Representative Patsy Mink of Hawaii, who's also the first woman of color in Congress, and Indiana Senator Birch Bai. And they introduce what became Title IX in response to this discrimination People face in education, and Senator Mink in particular wrote this in response to the discrimination that she faced, and President Nixon signs Title IX in 1972. Part one. Part two is how does this apply to LGBTQ rights? Frankie: Heh. Judah: And this is kind of a storied history, so we're gonna have to fuss around with it because there's several different cases that come up. I relied on the recent Supreme Court opinion West Virginia v BPJ. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: I looked at a Congressional Research Service legal sidebar L S B 11454 which is an analysis of BPJ I did Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: read Title IX which is you can find it 20 USC 1681 And then I've had to read more Trump executive orders. I suffered for this. Executive Frankie: I'm so sorry. Judah: order one four one six eight Defending Frankie: Is that the one that inadvertently says that everybody's female? Judah: Yeah, kinda. Defending women from gender ideology extremism, the withdrawn twenty twenty four Title IX rule, which I'll go into, and Bloomberg's law overview of the circuit split, which is happening right now, talking about The cluster that's happening as far as LGBTQ plus rights in Title IX. So up until 2015, Title IX does not offer any kind of protections for the LGBTQ plus community. Period. So 1972 to 2015. I don't have a source for that, because what I have is nothing. Frankie: well, you have the thing that changed it, so Judah: Yes, twenty sixteen the Obama administration issues what's called a Dear Colleague letter, which is guidance about how to interpret and enforce Title IX. And that dear colleague letter required schools to treat transgender students consistent with their gender identity, including for restrooms. And this is kind of in response to a case Goucester County School Board V G. G. the boy's name is Gavin Grimm. And i Gla G it's Gla Glouc Gloucester, is that is that how it's pronounced? Frankie: Is it from Massachusetts? Judah: Yeah. Frankie: Yeah. Gloucester Judah: It's glu okay. I think it's I think it's from Massachusetts. I actually didn't look. G-L O U C E S T E R. Frankie: Gloucester yeah. Judah: Okay. You East Coasters and you're missing we're just gonna leave letters out. how you pronounce it. Frankie: except for Dorchester. Spelled the same as Worcester. Pronounced very differently. Judah: Worcester has so many extra letters. Frankie: Yes, it's spelled like Dorchester but with a W. Judah: But we're not Why? Okay, never mind. we're not going down that rabbit trail right now. I have too many rabbit trails to go down in this podcast. We can almost think of Fresh Hell as this is longer than my actual segment that I'm talking about today. Yeah. Frankie: And probably mine as well. Judah: Okay. So Gavin Grimm is a Transgender well he's a boy at the time, he's a man now, and he sues his school district because he can't use the regular boys' restroom. So that's going on. We have this dear colleague letter that that comes into place in 2016. 2017, Trump administration immediately rescinds that dear colleague letter. So it's gone. Frankie: Yeah, of course they do. Judah: Then the fourth circuit rules for Gavin Grimm in 2020. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: The Supreme Court declines review of that case in 2021. The same year Bostick v. Clayton County kind of changes the landscape. There the court rules that Title VII's ban on sex discrimination encompasses discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. So we're taking that. ruling and a lot of lower federal courts are gonna take that logical reasoning about Title VII and apply it to Title IX Different things. In twenty twenty one so we're flip-flopping. We can see like Obama, Trump takes it away. Now we're to Biden, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: even though a lot of this court stuff has happened when Trump was in office. Twenty twenty one the Biden administration issues a notice of interpretation applying Bostok to Title IX, which is what a lot of lower federal courts were already doing. And in twenty twenty-four, the Department of Education published a final rule that wrote that Bostok interpretation of Title VII into the regulations about Title IX. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: are we tracking so far? We're we're weaving, we're weaving, we're dodging, we're weaving, we're Frankie: Yep. Yep. Judah: going around. and that rule took the position that discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity was within the scope of Title IX prohibition. Frankie: Mm. Judah: Okay? Now, so that's Biden, and now we're gonna go this is twenty twenty four, right before Trump takes Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: office back. Twenty twenty five. We have a federal court decision, Tennessee v. Cardona, in Kentucky, which vacates that twenty twenty four federal rule. And that court found that defining discrimination on the basis of sex to include gender identity exceeded the Department of Education's authority. Because Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: the text doesn't support it. Because the new rule was vacated Trump's twenty twenty era Title IX regulations take action again. Trump issued executive orders. 'Cause he's just like here, let's just have executive orders like Frankie: 'Cause that's how he governs because it's faster than trying Judah: Yeah. Frankie: to get something through Congress, which can't. Judah: So in twenty twenty-five, he issues EO 14201 which directed the education secretary to prioritize enforcement against schools that allow transgender girls and women into girls and women's sports. Like there's so few trans athletes, we can talk about that in a second. Frankie: There are like no trans NCAA athletes right now. Judah: not anymore. And and before that rule was made, I think there was like six. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: out of 150,000 that executive order redefines what sex is and defines it as an immutable biological classification as either male or female. There's a ton of pen there's not what the science Frankie: Which is not what the science says. Like Judah: says, there's there's a ton of lawsuits all over the place, Frankie: can we take a brief science detour? Judah: No. No, we're gonna get to the end. Cause I still have more stuff to talk about. And then we can science detour. Frankie: Okay Judah: Okay, that's 2025. I didn't go too deep into it, but United States v Skrmetti is Frankie: Mm. Judah: a gender affirming care case for minors. And that turned out poorly for the trans community. Frankie: Yes it did. Judah: And then twenty twenty six. So on June thirtieth, twenty twenty six, this is BPJ. So Supreme Court issues the BPJ ruling, which upheld West Virginia and Idaho laws restricting transgender girls from female athletics. And that case rejects the Title IX and equal protection claims that were brought against those West Virginia and Idaho laws. And the court there is distinguishing employment from athletics. And they're really Frankie: They went around it in a very weird way. Judah: super weird way. BPJ is weird because they can't undo Bostok, which is about Title Seven, which is about employment. But we're talking about Athletics. Frankie: Education. Judah: And so they talk about how employment and athletics are different. unsurprisingly, Sotomayor, Kagan, and Jackson concurred on Title IX, but dissented on the equal protection claims Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: brought from those states. Alright, so now we're at BPJ. And just recently we have another handout from the federal government trying to clarify that Title IX, because of this BPJ ruling, does not offer any protections to the LGBTQ plus community. So functionally today Frankie: So they're taking this somewhat narrow ruling regarding trans girls and women in women's sports and just expanding it to all queer people. Judah: All queer people in education, they're saying that Frankie: In education. Judah: so where it currently stands is we have circuit splits all over the place about does Title IX provide protections based on gender identity and sexual orientation. So we have the Trump administration saying no, and we have federal courts split along party lines about who's applying this Bostok rule Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: to Title IX outside of I guess the scope of athletics. And how does this apply to students? you cannot rely on any federal protection like across the board for can you be discriminated against for your sexual orientation or gender identity at your university or public school and relying on state law Or kind of the circuit that you're living in. So I wish Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: that I had like a tidy bow. sorry, I did a lot of reading on this. I really was like, we're gonna get some red string and we're gonna tr we're gonna draw things together. Frankie: yeah. Judah: so Title Nine is legally speaking a clusterfuck. Frankie: Yeah. and when Judah is talking about a circuit split, I think there are *twelve circuits in the United States. For example, we sit in Oregon in the Ninth Circuit that covers Oregon, California, Washington, Idaho, Nevada, Alaska, and Hawaii. Judah: Yeah. Frankie: so the Ninth Circuit tends to be fairly protective of people versus say the Fifth Circuit, which is like Texas and Oklahoma, which is less protective of people. Judah: Well we saw the fourth circuit, being very protective of Gavin Grimm and then that ruling out of the circuit wherever Tennessee is, being like, Nope, screw you and so you know, as a trans person I'm very interested in how this is being applied 'cause there's certain Frankie: Mm. Judah: like areas where I think, you know, if I'm flying across the country and I'm going to visit someone, can Frankie: Yep. Yep. Judah: I use the bathroom in an airport in Tennessee? Frankie: Yep. well I mean I told the story about how I ran into that in South Carolina. turns out I looked it up afterwards, it's only in schools in South Carolina so far. But that can change. Judah: Yeah. And now that I've got 'cause I had my notes, I didn't want to get off this train of thought 'cause it it's this is a tough line of reasoning to get through and when you get to the end it still doesn't make sense. Frankie: Mm-hmm. It doesn't make sense. Judah: And I couldn't tell somebody, you know, how is Title IX going to be applied at your university? I couldn't tell them. it's too unclear Frankie: Yeah. Judah: where we're standing right now. But there's a concerted attack and we're not talking about purely private colleges and universities that are run by religious organizations. We're talking about public universities, Frankie: Public. Yeah. Judah: colleges, public schools that receive federal funding. Frankie: Well yeah, and the equal protection argument, if I'm remembering correctly, was essentially that it's tied to sex because women and girls are being treated differently based on their sex assigned at birth and therefore it's an equal protections issue, is my understanding of the argument that the plaintiff was making. And then the way SCOTUS came down, like their argument almost sounded like they agreed and then they were just like, meh. Judah: It's I'm still floored and worried and Frankie: Mm. Judah: all the things that are going on. it was heartening to me that at least for employment that the Bostok rule still stands. Frankie: Yes. Mm-hmm. Judah: but there is a concert, you know, Project Twenty Twenty Five. This is part of it. Frankie: This is part of it. Judah: a concerted attack on LGBTQ plus rights and the rights and bodily autonomy of women. 'Cause Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: before Title IX there weren't women's restrooms in a lot of places. 'Cause they just Frankie: Yeah. Judah: weren't expecting women. So there wasn't a place for any woman to go pee, much less a trans woman. Frankie: Right. Judah: and the immutable characteristics where somebody's either male or female, there's between one and four percent of the population where doctors cannot tell you. Frankie: Yeah, so science break Judah: Science break. Frankie: Okay. So the fourth grade here's how we learn about genetics X you know quadrangle of like X X XY XY and however that's set out. that is taught in fourth grade for a reason. It is exceedingly Judah: Yeah. Frankie: basic. there are a number of reasons that somebody can be what's called intersex. What this means is that they don't fall squarely into XX means female, XY means male. That could be because they have either an extra or a missing chromosome. It could also mean that they have a gene on their X chromosome that either does or does not turn on. And that's where you wind up with people who are XY who have female parts, or people who are XX who have male parts. And then there are people who are literally just born somewhere in between. They're born with both a penis and a uterus. And doctors have no problem reassigning the gender at birth of those babies because it makes them uncomfortable for them to have both parts. Judah: it's been up until very recently that children born with what are called ambiguous genitalia would undergo Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: surgical procedures very early in life. Yes. Frankie: Gender reassignment surgery. It's what it is. Judah: And now the medical community only within the last decade or so has really turned away from that practice because it's very harmful to children. It can result in like nerve damage, function loss. Frankie: It can result in also just hormone deficiencies, right? there's a woman on Facebook that I've started following that this happened to her. She was born with ambiguous genitalia and they assigned her male at birth. But there was a note in her chart that she didn't discover until she was an adult that said This kid is going to need estrogen therapy when they hit puberty because they're not going to be able to, you know, make enough of their own hormones. And she got very, very sick until she figured this out and started taking estrogen therapy. and she always knew she was a girl, but she was assigned male at birth and she was told she was a boy. And so she has this very like interesting journey Judah: I've heard the philosophy now is if they can pee, leave them be. And I've also paid attention to other intersex activists to some of them don't feel comfortable being included under LGBTQ I plus because like hey we didn't go anywhere. We were born intersex. This is the body that we were born with. You know, we're we are not transgender people. You know, some some people who are intersex are transgender. But no like hey you're you're intersex. Like your biological classification is X. It's not M or F. And the intersex community is something that the Trump administration really does not want to even mention or talk about because that throws a wrench into their like Yeah, Frankie: It blows up their entire theory, yeah. Judah: and like so if somebody's intersex, what makes them straight? What makes them gay? What makes them you know, like because they don't have this rigid set of roles that they can assign to somebody who is born intersex, and other things like, you know, what is biologically male or biologically female? Is that parts? Is that genetics? and hormone therapy for transgender people who are not born intersex, it changes our bodies in ways that meet definitions of biologically male or biologically female, like under Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: the Trump administration. I think those terms are meaningless. Frankie: Yeah, no, they have no actual scientific meaning and that seems to just run along with everything that this administration does. Judah: It's like, what is the definition of a fish? Like there isn't a definition of fish scientifically. It's just what you think of as a fish. fish has no scientific meaning. And that is I think gonna be the longest section of our fresh hell where I went really deep into Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: legal analysis. and I'm gonna take a break now and we're gonna just talk about something lighter and cheerier. It is spooky season, that is gay Halloween. We are celebrating all month. I think Frankie has a special Spooky story for us and I have a little bit spooky. Frankie: It's it's a little bit spooky. So I am talking about the evil twin defense. My sources come from articles from ABC, the Mumbai Mirror, and PBS. And it is about a pair of 27 year old twins in Malaysia named Sathis and Sabarish Raj. In two thousand and three, they were charged with trafficking one hundred and sixty six kilos or three hundred and sixty six pounds of cannabis and one point seven kilos or three and three quarters pounds of raw opium. Judah: So that is so much weed. Frankie: To give you an idea of how much weed that is, a single pound of weed takes up a standard shoebox. Judah: So and how many pounds was it? Frankie: Three hundred and sixty five, three hundred and sixty six. It's a warehouse of weed. Judah: So that's like a warehouse of shoe boxes. Cause weed does not weigh that much. Frankie: No. No. And I suppose you could like compress it and it would get a little bit smaller because there's a lot of like air in between the leaves. But a single pound of weed takes up approximately a standard shoebox. So it's a it is a fuck ton of weed. Now. Judah: Is this is like a semi truck full of weed. Okay. So much weed. Let's I have no idea how much opium that is. I don't know that I've ever seen opium. Okay. Frankie: So I'm gonna I'm gonna go into that a little bit. So raw opium, this is not something that people generally like think of when they think of opiates, right? So raw opium, and there is actually an article on PBS they did a frontline article on it that goes a little bit more into the processing that I didn't really want to get into because I didn't want to give people ideas. But raw opium is the raw product that morphine and later heroin and other things are made out of. Judah: An and opium was like a big time drug, turn of the nineteenth century. You know, you hear the Frankie: Yes. Yes. Judah: like the stories about the opium eaters and and things like that before the processing. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Well, I mean there's, you know, wild rumor that the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland was smoking opium. So Judah: Not gonna comment on that. Frankie: what happens? So opium and opiates originate from poppy flowers. And so when those flowers get old enough that they drop their petals, you have these seed pods left, right? And so when those are ruptured either naturally or if somebody opens them, they start draining this like milky sap that is opium and latex. Judah: And latex Okay. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Opium and latex. So once the white milky stuff goes away and it starts to dry, once that latex starts to get like dry off of it, what you are left with is this brown sticky substance. That's the opium. And it's like sticky and squishy and not super easily transportable. And so frequently there are like field side refineries so that they can quickly refine it into morphine, because that's much easier to package and ship. and then from there the morphine can either be used medicinally, right? Like in hospitals you use morphines for pain management and things like that. Or if you're on the other side of the law, you can further refine it into heroin or fentanyl or other things. I guess I guess fentanyl has medical uses too, but Judah: Wait, can you Yeah, but I don't know if you can you refine it into fentanyl? I fentanyl's a synthetic opioid. Morphine is a non synthetic opioid. Frankie: It's a non-synthetic, but there are like as you derive stuff, it's technically becoming more synthetic. Anyways, so Raw opium, because it is this like sticky, squishy, like gelatinous kind of thing, it makes it really hard to transport. Judah: I'm picturing in my head like slime like kids play with. Frankie: Yeah, that's kinda when I was researching this, that's kinda the picture that I got in my head was that like if you squish it too hard, it's gonna go Judah: That's the that's the technical scientific Frankie: That's the technical scientific term. So why they're transporting the raw opium and they hadn't like refined it field side like people normally do, I don't know. But you wound up with this almost four pounds of slime, essentially, that they had packaged to traffic. So in Malaysia Trafficking in drugs is a capital offense. At Judah: Ooh, you can get murdered. Frankie: least it was in 2003. I tried to find the actual statute, and I was having some trouble. I did find like Malaysian criminal laws, but I was having trouble finding the trafficking statute. largely because my control F was failing me. Judah: Ha ha. Frankie: I was not gonna read 300 pages of Malaysian law to find one. But, anyways, in 2003 it was absolutely a capital offense. So what happened was one of the twins was caught in his car which was stuffed full of drugs at a house in Kuala Lumpur and he was arrested. The other twin arrived shortly thereafter to the house and was also arrested. Judah: Are they identical twins? Okay. Frankie: Yes. Only the first brother had the key to the house. And so I'm assuming like the car doesn't seem like it would actually hold all of the weed, so I'm thinking some of that drugs were still in the house, but the articles that I found were kind of unclear on that. But anyways, brother one gets arrested because he has drugs in the car. Brother two shows up at the house and then gets arrested as well. The police failed to keep track of which twin was arrested first. Judah: I know where this defense is going. Frankie: Okay. There was apparently also a third brother involved, but he passed away prior to the time of trial in 2009. So six years to get this to trial. So the twins are identical, meaning not only did they look alike, but they shared DNA. Right? And normally when we think about DNA in criminal cases, we think about, you know, rape or things like that, where like somebody is intentionally placing their DNA elsewhere. But it can be helpful in all sorts of crimes because we shed DNA all the time. It's called touch DNA. So if I touch the table next to me, a wee bit of my DNA sloughs off either from skin cells, sweat, things like that. Right? So in theory, they could have tried to test all the baggies, all the bricks of drugs. and maybe gotten some touch DNA off of that and determined who it was, except that they're identical twins. Judah: they would have had to take their fingerprints 'cause that's what's different, 'cause your fingerprints develop with you as you grow, so identical twins do not have the same fingerprints. Frankie: Correct. Fingerprints are based on how your body moves through the amniotic fluid when you're in the womb. and so that patterning can be slightly different between identical twins, but apparently they didn't do fingerprints, or the packages were too squishy to do fingerprints because we're dealing with slime. Judah: And so much weed. my gosh. Frankie: And so much weed So much weed. Judah: I wonder what the street value was. Millions of dollars. Okay, Frankie: it did not go into that. so can't use the DNA because they're identical twins, they have the same DNA. The one other thing that could have helped the officers determine which twin was which is that one of them typically wears glasses. However, when they were arrested, he did not. So neither twin had glasses when they were arrested. So cops f forgot who was who. forgot forgot which one showed up first. Judah: and the case all like rides on these two brothers keeping ten toes down and not ratting the other one out. Frankie: Correct and they didn't. So on the day of trial, to make it even more interesting, they both decided to wear white shirts. Just to make it even harder to tell them apart. Judah: I mean Okay, if your whole defence is riding on you can't tell which of us was trafficking in drugs, wearing a matchy match outfit, that's the way to do it. Yeah. That's a great defense. Frankie: Hundred percent. Hundred percent. So, High Court Justice Datuk Zahara Ibrahim listened to all the testimony of the police officers. She determined that it was clear that one of the twins possessed the drugs, but it was not clear which twin possessed the drugs. She told the media that the evidence was clear that whoever was the first twin, the one that was in the vehicle, was the responsible twin. However, since they are identical in appearance, their DNA was identical, she found that there was reasonable doubt as to which twin was the twin that was arrested first and therefore responsible for the trafficking. And while she was sure that one of the twins was guilty, she said, I can't be calling the wrong twin to enter his defense I can't be sending the wrong person to the gallows. And so they were both acquitted. Judah: So I mean but that was six years of both of them likely being imprisoned and Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: the innocent brother knowing that if he says, I was the one that arrived second and here's my alibi, here's where I was right before I came to the house, that his brother will die that spent six years shutting the F up. Frankie: Keeping his mouth shut. Mm-hmm. Yep. And once they were both released, of course, everybody in their family was crying and hugging each other and, you know, happy reunions and all that. Judah: that is hardcore brotherly love right there. Frankie: Yes, that is very hardcore brotherly love. but it worked. Judah: It did work. that's not a dumb defense. That was smart. Frankie: Yeah, but it took a lot I would imagine to be there knowing that it wasn't you to Judah: Yeah. Frankie: keep your mouth shut. Judah: Keep your mouth shut. And not talking about it in prison 'cause you bet they probably put together, tried to get to record, to say like Frankie: Mm. Judah: something, and they were just like shutting up. Shutting up Frankie: Yeah. Yep. Judah: Okay. Well that is very interesting. That is very interesting case As soon as you said identical twins, I was like, man, I know exactly where this is going. But and it's good. But six years of six solid Frankie: Six years. Judah: years of rip just being quiet. that's a great story. That is that is a good one. Where'd you find that? Frankie: it was on one of the lists of like weird defenses that I found when we started doing the podcast. Judah: Okay, we're gonna take a brief break, a commercial break non-sponsored. We recently did a Know Your Rights episode. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: I was listening to a musical artist named Tall Paul, who's Ojibwe, and raps in Ojibwe and is very cool and I was just just because it was good music, listening to Tall Paul and I came upon a song of his called Ikogaan Mikwam, which is spelled I K O G A A N I K W A Ikogaan Mikwam, by Tall Paul. I'm gonna send you a link so we can include it. In this rap, he does an extremely effective rap version of A Know Your Rights. Frankie: Nice. Judah: and the rap is about getting ice out of Minnesota. Frankie: Mm. Judah: but he i it it's catchy, it's good music, and I'm gonna put a plug in there for Tall Paul, especially his song Ikogaan Mikwam, which I will include. It this I think would be a fun way for you to like maybe get your kids to listen to. Know you're Frankie: Know you're rights. Judah: rights, and it's kind of an earworm, so we're gonna put that in the show notes and Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Tallpaul has a lot of other great songs. He's a great musician. Really interesting. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: very politically active. But that one in particular, I'm gonna give it two solid thumbs up from the Dumb Defenses podcast for legal education via Frankie: Nice. Judah: music. So thank you to Tall Paul for making Ikogaan Mikwam, and we will share that widely and share it with your friends. Alright, I'm gonna talk to you about the real Amityville horror. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: So you're from the east coast. Have you ever been to Amityville, New York? Frankie: I've driven through it or by it. Judah: the research I had is like it's kind of a charming, quaint, smaller town in New York, that has a lot of rich people in it. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: The story of Amityville, a lot of people have seen the movies, is that there's this family, they're living in a haunted or possessed house and it Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: impacts especially the father of the house until they're doing he starts doing really strange behavior and there's, you know, ooze coming out of the walls and things shaking, you know, a classic story of a malevolent haunting, then the family Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: has to flee the house. It started as a book, was then made into a movie, and the movie has sequels and the movie's been remade, and I think there's another remake of the Amityville horror coming out. So the bad news is that story is completely fabricated. Frankie: Ha ha ha. Judah: if you're saying like based on a true story, that'd be like saying E.T. is based on a true story and the story is the NASA moon landing. it is horse shit. Like the whole Amity is pretty definitively horseshit. However, here's the true story of the Amityville House that is not based on the book. So nineteen seventy four, a twenty-three year old named Ronald DeFeo Jr. shot and killed six of his family members at one twelve Ocean Avenue in Amityville, New York. He's convicted and given six consecutive life sentences. So here's the part that is true. In nineteen seventy five, George and Kathy Lutz buy 112 Ocean Avenue at a heck of a discount. 80,000. I wonder Frankie: I wonder why. Judah: why. They know there has been a mass murder in the house. It's a really nice house. They got it for a great deal. They're swooping in. They get it for 80 grand in 1975 and spend an extra four hundred dollars to have a lot of the deceased family's furniture left in the house. And They claim this haunting starts and that they have to flee twenty-eight days later. Then they work with an author who writes the book on it, yada yada, the story that I just told you. Frankie: Say nineteen seventy five or nineteen eighty five? Judah: Nineteen seventy five. Frankie: So eighty thousand dollars is almost a half million dollars today. Judah: It's rich town, very nice house. Big house. You Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: it still exists. You can still look at it. It's a huge, beautiful home. But the everything after that is essentially a horse shit. Frankie: Ha ha ha Judah: And they had a lawyer, last name Weber That says we made it up over many bottles of wine that we invented this story, but then the couple goes to work with Jay Anson, who writes the book, and so on. Here's the interesting part of the story that we're gonna talk about, which is all the lawsuits that result out of this narrative. Lawsuit number one. my sources are AFI Catalog, The Amityville Horror, which talks about the from nineteen seventy-nine, press of the time, journal coverage, summaries of dates, AFI catalog about the Amityville II, the possession from nineteen eighty-two that covers the fights about the sequels to the Amityville Horror. Law Journal Newsletters Courthouse Steps from 2005 about a 2005 complaint by George Lutz, the Los Angeles Business Journal talking about that same 2005 libel suit, the Psy Encyclopedia, the journal for psychical research, titled The Amityville Hoax, a skeptical leaning reference with a bunch of footnotes, Amityville Murderers.com, Lutz v. Weber. I mean, I went through a lot because there's a lot Frankie: Okay. Judah: of lawsuits. The Real Amityville Horror by the Skeptoid Podcast. talking about like it's garbage. And an article called The Chilling Crime and the Real House Behind the Amityville Horror, a biography.com article by Tyler Picotti and it says other artists. So there's there's a lot. Okay. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: So let's dig into all the lawsuits, which I want a movie just about the lawsuits about the Amityville horror. That's 'cause Frankie: That's because you're a law nerd Judah: I'm a law nerd. First lawsuit filed in the East is E D N Y, I'm assuming the Eastern District of New York, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Lutz v. Hoffman slash Weber. So this is the first court case when George and Kathy Lutz sue Ronald DeFeo Jr.'s the the actual murderers defense attorney William Weber and a writer named Paul Hoffman. and so the Lutzes sue this Weber and Hoffman, so Ronald DeFeos defense attorney and this author because they had written articles about the Amityville horror. Okay. Then Weber countersues saying, You promised that I could write this book about all the crap we made up and instead you sold your story to an author named Jay Anson who went on to write that original Amityville horror book that the movies are based off of. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: So the family sues this one author and this defense attorney and then the defense attorney sues them right back. So the Lutzes sue Weber and Hoffman for four point five million dollars for writing these articles in these magazines, alleging invasion of privacy, misappropriation of their name for trade purposes, and mental distress. Hoffman and Weber and somebody else sue the Lutzes for two million dollars for fraud and breach of contract. Drama's already started. I I want you to remember, like, it's pretty well established that at least most of the Amityville horror story by the Lutzes is bullshit. Frankie: Complete bullshit. Judah: So we're talking about, hey, we've made it up, but now this story we've made up is making a bunch of money. And William Weber says, like, hey, this made up story is shaped by like my advice and us drinking together and talking out like making this up. And there's a great quote that there's a serious ethical question when lawyers become literary agents. So like this guy he's an actual criminal defense attorney. he's said, Hey, I've worked with this family to make up this story, and now they've sold this story to somebody else and made a bunch of money and they didn't give me any money, and I should have been the one to tell the story. We had a handshake agreement. and the Yeah at the end of that case, the judge dismisses the Lutz's lawsuit and Weber and the other people kinda get a keep their lawsuit and but that Frankie: So the counter claims are kept and the original claim is dismissed? Okay. Judah: Correct. that's only the first of a series of lawsuits about this, but it does look like Weber gets some money out of it. it's good. in May two thousand and one, Geraldine DeFeo, with the assistance of California attorney Roger Stacey, requested the file was sealed, so we don't really know super what happens. She requested that the remainder of the Lutz v. Weber file be unsealed and then it was. But I don't have I don't have the rest of that file. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: Alright. Lawsuit number two. About the same time. Cromerty v. Lutz, Anson, and Prentice Hall, which is the publisher. So they sue the family, the guy that wrote the book, and the people that published the book. So the Cromerty family are the people that bought 112 Ocean Avenue from the Lutz family. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Okay. Judah: So they've bought this really nice big house, and This family is now like horrified because it has become a major attraction for psychic researchers, horror fans, curious looky loos, and they're suing to say, like, hey, you've drawn all the people to this house, and they complained that Anson's book was, quote, completely untrue, never fact-checked, and they took issue with specific physical claims. in the book about the house, like damaged doors and windows. Eventually, Lutz, Anson, and Prentice Hall, the publisher of the book, settle with the new owners of 112 Ocean Avenue. Side note, a later owner changed the street number of the house to 108 Ocean Avenue to try and keep people from coming Frankie: Coming. Judah: to their house and like poking around their house. Frankie: Do not blame them. Judah: Do not blame them. this is a house like regular people live in this house. This is not a movie house. This is not owned by anybody affiliated. People live in this house. Don't go there. This is Frankie: Yep. Yeah. Judah: a normal residence that has gotten tied up in all this litigation. So do not go to 108 Ocean Avenue unless you have been invited to 108 Ocean Avenue, Amityville, New York. Spoiler. Next lawsuit. So this is in the late 70s. So we've already had the family versus this defense lawyer and this other guy that wrote these magazine articles. Then we have the new owners of the house versus the old family in the house, the guy that wrote the book, and the publishers of the book. Alright. Then we have the original Amityville horror movie that's made. It's a big success. It is still a classic movie. I'm not saying don't watch the movie. Just don't think it's a true movie. It is a fun movie. Feel free. It's just not real. Then in 1982, a film company tries to make Amityville 2. And the Lutz family, George and Kathleen Lutz, sue O'Rion and Dilarentus films. From associating Amityville 2, the possession, with the original Amityville horror. So the Lutz family had sold the film rights to Amityville 1, the first classic one. they retained the sequel rights. And so they say we exclusively own the sequel rights to the Amityville horror. And they argue that Amityville 2, the possession, is not an authorized or legitimate sequel to the first movie. Okay. Then there's a break in lawsuits. All the way it Frankie: What happens with that one? Judah: if I recall it settled out of court and Frankie: Okay. Judah: they did get money. Honestly, I don't remember I didn't put it in my notes. Because there's so many lawsuits. Then we have in 2005 a remake of the Amityville Horror is made. I think this one stars Ryan Reynolds, not well reviewed. Didn't watch it. But the Lutz family sues MGM. Over Frankie: Course it Judah: the remake. So they Frankie: Isn't it covered by like spoof law? Judah: it wasn't a spoof, it was a remake. Frankie: It was a remake. Judah: and in the screenplay, the remake, the father character who is based on a real person, tries to kill his wife and does kill the dog in the movie. So the Lutz family sues for defamation, false light, and invasion of privacy. Frankie: The whole thing is false, said Judah: Yeah But th now they're portraying this real life person as I don't know, Frankie: Did they name them Lutz? Like Judah: I didn't watch the movie. there was a two thousand and two deal with a contract about a remake of a film That the film could not, quote, intentionally defame or libel Lutz. So there was a contract theory as well. And they also said that, hey, we had agreed that a remake be made, but you didn't pay us the fifty thousand dollar box office bonus or our share of merchandising. George Lutz, who had the claim to the suit, kicked the bucket before a satisfactory conclusion to the matter. Cause he had most of the rights, 'cause like, hey, you're defaming me, but then he dies before the lawsuit's over. So a satisfactory conclusion was not reached. However, there Frankie: But then his estate can pick it up, right? Judah: what I could find was a satisfactory conclusion was not reached. So now over this one thing we've got one, two, three, four different lawsuits about one thing that's pretty much, hey, we made it up. And the Lutz has even kinda owned up like, hey, some spooky things did happen. And there is hypothetically I read like another remake of the Amityville horror coming soon, so it seems like every twenty years they're gonna try and resurrect this thing from the dead. I don't know if there's gonna be a lawsuit about that. But I should note that all other owners of the Amadeville house have reported absolutely no strange occurrences whatsoever in the home Frankie: Ha ha ha. Judah: and say this house is absolutely not haunted, it is a house. Frankie: Ha ha ha. Judah: And that is the true horror the lawsuits thrown I mean and the Lutz family is very litigious. Frankie: Years of litigation. Judah: They are trying to get paid. They've been trying to get paid. so that is th the real story of the Amityville House. I think probably still a fun book to read. I haven't read the book. It's still a spooky movie. It is just it's horse shit. And now I'm gonna look up how much did they pay for the house, like in today's dollars? Frankie: Yeah, 'cause the eighty thousand in nineteen seventy five dollars comes to almost a half a million. I did not Judah: Did you look it up already? Okay. So eighty thousand dollars is worth about a half a million dollars today. You're you Frankie: Yeah. Judah: nailed that on the head. And I mean it's fun. I want a movie called The Real Amityville Horror, Colon All the Lawsuits. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: Everybody sued everybody. Everybody who could sue everybody has sued everybody. Frankie: Because greed. Judah: Because greed and this was all according to Weber, he went over to the house, he was this guy's defense attorney, that's hella shady to begin with, like that he was the actual murderer's defense attorney who then was cooking up a story about a haunted house with a family. They really did leave the house, they really did sell it. By all accounts never haunted. I mean, you'd think if the house is actually haunted that somebody would try and capitalize on that later. Frankie: Mm. Judah: but all the future owners were like, this is is expensive. Frankie: A house. Judah: It is a big house, it is a nice house, it is a house. It is a house. so for spooky season, I'm spoiling it for everybody, but that is the Amityville horror. Frankie: Ha ha ha Judah: And I enjoyed that very much. That there was more lawsuits than you would expect. Alright. I've talked a lot today, but there's other episodes. Frankie: you have talked a lot today. Judah: so we're gonna wrap up with the light at the end of the tunnel, some good news to get you by because I don't think any other part of this episode is gonna give you a reason to live. So, the Light at the end of the tunnel is the world's largest marine protected area has been established in French Polynesia. And I got this from the United Nations Environmental Program. They have a article about it. There isn't an author listed on the article, but hey, it's the UN. the third UN Ocean Conference took place in June twenty twenty five in Nice, France, and was designed to help push ocean issues higher up the international agenda and David Attenborough they reference in this article that other high profile productions like David Attenborough's recent film Ocean is helping to provide critical momentum to the issue of ocean biodiversity and conservation. During that conference, the president of French Polynesia, President, and I'm gonna butcher his name, I'm super sorry, Moti Brotherson announced that French Polynesia was putting in new protections for the vast area known as the Tanui Atia, which encompasses almost all of French Polynesia, which is not just one island, you know, series of islands. Frankie: Yeah, so many, yeah. Judah: These new protections encompass 1.1 million square kilometers. Frankie: Amazing. Judah: and includes two fully protected areas that prohibit all potentially damaging activities, and includes over one hundred and eighty thousand square kilometers of highly protected artisanal fishing zones, which means that huge commercial fishers cannot operate. Only small scale traditional fishing practices Frankie: That's awesome. Judah: are allowed to operate there. This protection is huge because French Polynesia has an enormous amount of biodiversity, including twenty-one shark species, a hundred and seventy-six coral species, and over Frankie: wow. Judah: one thousand fish species. So these protections are gonna help protect s so much Frankie: So much biodiversity. Judah: biodiversity and There is a survey listed in the article of one thousand three hundred and seventy eight French Polynesians and ninety two percent favor the creation of this new marine protected area and they see it as a way to honor their traditional cultural values. French Polynesia alone Frankie: Mm. Judah: raised global marine coverage so like of all the oceans from one point two five percent to nine point eight five percent so just Frankie: And they're not a big country. Judah: They're not a big country, they're not super populated, but their decision to enact these really strong protections around their islands in the ocean waters that they control. I mean one point two five to nine point eight five is an eighty seven percent increase Frankie: Yeah, it's huge. Judah: in ocean protection just because of French Polynesia. So I would like to end with hey I did not know that much about French Polynesia. I know more now. I support you French Polynesia. Frankie: Absolutely. Judah: Excellent work stewarding natural resources, I hope other countries include in the United States, which is a nightmare, take up. But if we have any French Polynesian listeners, thank you so much and Frankie: Thank you. Judah: we really appreciate it. So that was my light at the end of the tunnel. I was gonna talk about increase of monarch butterflies in Mexico which was a modest gain but then I saw an article referencing this incredible protections that French Polynesia has put into place and I was like that's gotta be the one that is just Frankie: That's awesome. Judah: a huge huge step. Frankie: that's fantastic. Judah: So next week I'm still gonna be doing what I was planning to do, which is a legitimate dumb defense, the devil made me do it defense, or the demonic possession defense. Frankie: Nice. Judah: it's a spooky story, is a legitimate dumb defense. I will be doing that next week. Frankie: Awesome. Mine is not necessarily a spooky, it's more of a funny. But I Judah: Okay. Frankie: will be talking about how one woman got out of a vehicular manslaughter conviction. Judah: Well you already had the big boobs defense, so that was Frankie: I did. Judah: a good episode. as always, I'm gonna end this like, review, subscribe. Frankie: Sorry. You're gonna do it this time? Judah: Yeah, like leave a review if you're listening and just leave one review wherever you listen to your podcast that makes a huge difference for us. And share with your friends if people are interested in sexism, LGBTQ protections or anything spooky, this is a good podcast for you. Frankie: Or if you're just a law nerd. Judah: Yeah, or just a regular nerd. We've got a lot of regular nerd listeners. Frankie: Yeah, that's true. reach out to us on Facebook, Instagram, and Blue Sky or at Dumb Defense's podcast at gmail dot com. Judah got a cookie recipe. Judah finally got a cookie recipe from one of our Judah: I finally got a cookie recipe. what's the name of the what's the name of the listener? Frankie: from our friend Jess, who is a Judah: Jess finally sent me a cookie recipe. it looks delicious. I haven't made it yet because I've been too lazy. I am going to make it, so I hope by next week I can talk to you about finally after many weeks of searching, getting a cookie recipe from a listener. And I think the recipe was like, damn, Judah. Like it started off with like, why you need to chill out about this cookie Frankie: Yeah. Judah: thing. I'm open to more cookie recipes. That one looks delicious, and it can make gluten-free and vegan, which is like, awesome, amazing, thoughtful cookie recipe. Thank you, Jess. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, she she knows how hard it is for me to eat. Alright, so I think that's all for today, and we'll see you next week. Bye. Judah: That's all for today. See you next week. Bye-bye.