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The Greatest Lie Women Were Ever Told About Sex: with Cindy Eckert · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:03
Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
0:05
Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
0:11
Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
0:16
Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I'd come
0:19
Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
0:22
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask, what if, why not?
0:28
Speaker 1: And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
0:33
Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. Viagra was approved
0:41
Speaker 1: in six months. Addie, the drug developed for women's desire,
0:47
Speaker 1: basically the women's viagra, took six years to be approved.
0:52
Speaker 1: When I first heard that, I had to stop and
0:54
Speaker 1: ask how is that possible? And then I met the
0:57
Speaker 1: woman who refused to accept it. Cindy Eckert is a
1:04
Speaker 1: force an entrepreneur who built and sold two billion dollar
1:08
Speaker 1: pharmaceutical companies, then bought one back when the mission was abandoned.
1:13
Speaker 1: She went head to head with the FDA, big pharma,
1:16
Speaker 1: and an entire cultural script that told women our desire
1:19
Speaker 1: was psychological, not biological. For six relentless years, she fought
1:25
Speaker 1: to get Addie approved, the first ever drug for women's
1:28
Speaker 1: sexual desire.
1:29
Speaker 2: The greatest lie you were ever sold is that sex
1:32
Speaker 2: is rooted only in emotion and not biology.
1:35
Speaker 1: Six years of scrutiny, media backlash, and institutional bias nearly
1:40
Speaker 1: destroyed her career and her personal life. But Cindy never
1:44
Speaker 1: stopped because for her, this was never just about sex.
1:48
Speaker 1: It was about equality. She's known for her pink hair
1:51
Speaker 1: and her sharp mind. And when I say sharp, I
1:55
Speaker 1: mean it. She's one of the most brilliant communicators I
1:57
Speaker 1: have ever met, a rare mix of intellect, emotional fluency,
2:02
Speaker 1: and charisma. I don't say this often, you guys know.
2:06
Speaker 1: I don't say the word icon or I don't like platitudes.
2:11
Speaker 1: Cindy is a unicorn. What defines her most, though, I think,
2:16
Speaker 1: is her persistence. She's still fighting for women to be
2:19
Speaker 1: seen and studied in medicine. The idea of female desire
2:24
Speaker 1: and sex can be blushworthy, but the conversation really isn't.
2:28
Speaker 1: This is revelatory. We talk about the science of desire,
2:32
Speaker 1: the medical gaslighting women face, and why men's pleasure was
2:36
Speaker 1: considered urgent why was ours optional? So we're circling three
2:40
Speaker 1: questions today. First, what does it reveal about our culture
2:44
Speaker 1: and our health system that a drug for men's desire
2:47
Speaker 1: was fast tracked in six months, while a drug for
2:49
Speaker 1: women's took six years. Two what does it take for
2:53
Speaker 1: one woman to challenge an entire system built without her
2:56
Speaker 1: in mind? And Three what can we learn about strategy, communication,
3:02
Speaker 1: and persuasion from a woman who has sat in big
3:04
Speaker 1: rooms with big egos in the big leagues. It's time
3:09
Speaker 1: to question everything with Cindy Eckert. Cindy, welcome to question everything.
3:19
Speaker 3: I love it so exciting.
3:22
Speaker 1: I feel like you're such a perfect guest for this
3:24
Speaker 1: show because you really did question every single norm that
3:28
Speaker 1: has to do with women's health and our bodies. Before
3:32
Speaker 1: we get into all of your incredible work, I want
3:34
Speaker 1: to start from the very beginning. I want to know
3:37
Speaker 1: who this woman is. You grew up a nomad. What
3:41
Speaker 1: part of your upbringing shows up in who you are today?
3:44
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I think I had a childhood with
3:48
Speaker 2: a lot of disruption. Lovely childhood, make no mistake, but
3:54
Speaker 2: a lot of disruption. I moved every year from the
3:56
Speaker 2: fourth grade through my senior year of high school, so
3:59
Speaker 2: I was that kid every year, like here's the new kid,
4:01
Speaker 2: here's a new kid. And I think that you know,
4:03
Speaker 2: there are two things that happen when you face a
4:06
Speaker 2: lot of disruption. I think that you find out that
4:09
Speaker 2: being uncomfortable isn't a bad thing.
4:12
Speaker 3: Like you'll you'll make it through.
4:14
Speaker 2: So when you are that new kid on the edge
4:16
Speaker 2: of the room, like that's okay, yes, because you have
4:18
Speaker 2: this unique opportunity to observe what's going on and kind
4:22
Speaker 2: of form your own opinions. And I think that's the
4:24
Speaker 2: second big piece. I think you develop like an independence
4:27
Speaker 2: of thinking that allows you to disrupt. So, you know,
4:32
Speaker 2: I was so lucky. I was never labeled like I
4:34
Speaker 2: wasn't in any of the I was the misfit, right,
4:36
Speaker 2: I wasn't the jock, and I wasn't the popular kid.
4:39
Speaker 2: I wasn't this or that, And therefore you could really
4:42
Speaker 2: kind of decide exactly who you are.
4:45
Speaker 1: I've heard, and I don't have any statistics to back
4:48
Speaker 1: this up, but it's anecdotal. I've heard that a lot
4:51
Speaker 1: of entrepreneurs have disruptive childhoods, and a lot of it
4:55
Speaker 1: is because they have a different risk tolerance.
5:00
Speaker 3: Hmm.
5:00
Speaker 2: Makes total sense to that, right, I have to tell
5:02
Speaker 2: you a story, Danielle, one hundred percent. Actually I was
5:05
Speaker 2: very honored that Microsoft picked me. Years ago, they were
5:10
Speaker 2: doing a campaign. They were like working internally about like
5:13
Speaker 2: how do we create more internal disruptors in a big
5:16
Speaker 2: corporate structure. So they picked six different disruptors and they
5:20
Speaker 2: picked me. The condition of it was I had to
5:22
Speaker 2: be interviewed by a performance psychologist, and I can remember
5:26
Speaker 2: I got into the on camera and I got into
5:29
Speaker 2: this interview and he said, what's the craziest thing you've
5:31
Speaker 2: ever done? And I said, agreed to be interviewed by
5:33
Speaker 2: a psychologist on camera?
5:36
Speaker 3: Like what I mean to find here?
5:38
Speaker 2: But it was fun because I happened to be the
5:40
Speaker 2: last of the sixth and so naturally when we were
5:44
Speaker 2: done recording, I said, Okay, what is it? Like? What's
5:47
Speaker 2: the common thread? And he said, honestly, you all came
5:50
Speaker 2: from such different walks of life, but you had one
5:52
Speaker 2: thing in common. You all moved a lot. And I
5:57
Speaker 2: thought that's so like we were faced with lots of
6:00
Speaker 2: different environments, different you know, disruption to just the norm.
6:05
Speaker 2: I thought that was fascinating. So it totally resonates with me.
6:08
Speaker 1: That's also a cool perspective for me to hear because
6:11
Speaker 1: I came from a very sturdy upbringing and childhood, and
6:16
Speaker 1: my dad actually did that very purposely, and hearing that
6:21
Speaker 1: there's an alternative way to do it sort of frees
6:24
Speaker 1: me up a little bit as a hopeful parent.
6:26
Speaker 2: One day, I'm like the woman at the cocktail party
6:29
Speaker 2: when you know, like the conversations about somebody who recently
6:32
Speaker 2: moved to the area and like how are your kids
6:34
Speaker 2: doing with it? I'm like, I have great news for you.
6:36
Speaker 2: Here's my great news is that?
6:38
Speaker 3: Actually? You know?
6:39
Speaker 2: And I think similarly, I have great envy. Like my
6:42
Speaker 2: sister in law has lived in the same ten mile
6:45
Speaker 2: radius her whole life, and I go to you know,
6:48
Speaker 2: life events for her, whether it was her baby showers
6:51
Speaker 2: or whatever, and I'm like stunned by like the community
6:55
Speaker 2: of support that she has. So you know, there there
6:58
Speaker 2: are always there's always advantages right to every different way.
7:03
Speaker 3: You just got to find them.
7:05
Speaker 1: Well said, you are a relentless champion of women's health,
7:09
Speaker 1: and I feel like women who become passionate about women's
7:12
Speaker 1: health usually have an experience that highlights the disparities that
7:17
Speaker 1: women face when it comes to healthcare. Do you have
7:20
Speaker 1: an experience that comes to mind? Or did I make
7:22
Speaker 1: that up?
7:23
Speaker 3: No?
7:23
Speaker 2: You didn't make it up. And I'll tell you what
7:25
Speaker 2: it's actually astonishing to me. So if you look at
7:28
Speaker 2: my career, you know, I first built a company in
7:31
Speaker 2: men's sexual health, and I built this company very successful.
7:35
Speaker 2: Loved being in the space and like creating change for
7:38
Speaker 2: people around sometimes a taboo topic. But my AHA moment
7:43
Speaker 2: was actually when the science was presented on women and
7:46
Speaker 2: really a self reflection, Oh my god, that's me, and
7:51
Speaker 2: actually calculating in a way through that lens, how often
7:56
Speaker 2: I'd been dismissed, Like how I'd brought up this very
8:00
Speaker 2: issue and gotten the you know, padded on the shoulder
8:04
Speaker 2: and told to be mindful and you know, set the mood,
8:09
Speaker 2: light the candles, and in a way like I always
8:12
Speaker 2: thought my obg yn was trying to be helpful and
8:16
Speaker 2: almost you know, a therapist to me.
8:18
Speaker 3: And then like this lightning bulb.
8:20
Speaker 2: Hit when I saw brain scan imaging of women that
8:23
Speaker 2: were struggling with this, where I was like, holy shit,
8:25
Speaker 2: it's biology and nobody has even addressed that for me.
8:28
Speaker 2: So part of my you know, deepest passion, I think
8:32
Speaker 2: was not only the science of it all, which I'm
8:35
Speaker 2: you know, I love and data like show me the
8:38
Speaker 2: data or you know GTFO, but but also like really
8:43
Speaker 2: like really seeing myself in it, yeah, and my own
8:47
Speaker 2: lived and actually having a heightened consciousness once I did that.
8:51
Speaker 2: That's exactly what was happening to me.
8:55
Speaker 1: Is that really the moment that led to you founding
8:59
Speaker 1: sprout file cuticles.
9:01
Speaker 2: I mean, like I can almost close my eyes, Danielle
9:03
Speaker 2: and be like transported to the moment, like I was
9:05
Speaker 2: struck by lightning.
9:07
Speaker 3: I saw brain.
9:09
Speaker 2: Scan images presented at a big sexual medicine conference, So
9:13
Speaker 2: it's I call that like I was the pink and
9:15
Speaker 2: the sea of blue pills, right. It was all sexual
9:17
Speaker 2: medicine at the time was really for men, and there
9:20
Speaker 2: were brain scan studies being done of women who struggled
9:23
Speaker 2: with their libido versus women who were happy with it,
9:26
Speaker 2: and they put.
9:27
Speaker 3: The slides up.
9:28
Speaker 2: And what they did is they took those women, put
9:30
Speaker 2: them both in an MRI, exposed them to erotica, and
9:34
Speaker 2: their brains lit up totally differently. The women who were struggling,
9:37
Speaker 2: their brains did not activate at all in response to
9:41
Speaker 2: sexual cues, and it was like you could see the
9:45
Speaker 2: light up versus the lack of Like basically for the
9:47
Speaker 2: women who were struggling. They weren't shutting all the tabs
9:50
Speaker 2: of their brain to ever, like you know, respond to sex.
9:53
Speaker 2: And I think to me it was like hardware, hardware biology.
10:00
Speaker 2: Oh my god, how insane is this that we've never
10:03
Speaker 2: considered that women are also just biologically wired to desire sex.
10:07
Speaker 1: I have a question about this. So I'm Gloria Steinhem's
10:09
Speaker 1: fellow for the year, and I know it was in Oh,
10:14
Speaker 1: oh my God for me too. But I was in
10:15
Speaker 1: her living room a few weeks ago and we were
10:19
Speaker 1: talking about sex, and she's so funny about it because
10:22
Speaker 1: she's totally neutral. She has apps like it's like a
10:25
Speaker 1: doctor talking about it. I think that's part of and
10:29
Speaker 1: I'm just assuming or inferring, but part of her message
10:32
Speaker 1: is like, it's natural, it's normal. I don't want to
10:34
Speaker 1: give any power to it, one way or the other.
10:36
Speaker 1: We were talking about I told them I was going
10:38
Speaker 1: to be interviewing you, and we were talking about how men,
10:42
Speaker 1: older men feel all of this pressure because we assume
10:46
Speaker 1: societally or culturally that they are supposed to want to
10:49
Speaker 1: have sex all the time, and we don't assign that
10:53
Speaker 1: to women. Although a lot of the women I know
10:56
Speaker 1: want to have sex just as much, if not more
10:59
Speaker 1: than men. Yeah, And she said, I don't know why
11:02
Speaker 1: we put so much pressure on it. Sex is really
11:05
Speaker 1: about reproduction, so as we get older, like sure, we're
11:10
Speaker 1: gonna want it less. And I never thought about that.
11:13
Speaker 3: What are you?
11:13
Speaker 1: What are you? And that was I shared it with
11:16
Speaker 1: my friends. Some of them were sort of triggered by
11:18
Speaker 1: that statement. I'm curious what you think.
11:20
Speaker 2: I might be triggered Danielle. Here's what I think, and
11:24
Speaker 2: I will tell you. I have a glorious stein a
11:25
Speaker 2: moment where I was going to speak at an event
11:29
Speaker 2: in New York City about like breaking barriers, and I
11:32
Speaker 2: got on a plane in Raleigh, North Carolina, and she
11:35
Speaker 2: was sitting.
11:36
Speaker 3: Next to me, and I thought, Oh my god.
11:38
Speaker 2: Universe, what what's happening? And we had this lovely conversation
11:42
Speaker 2: that she would never remember, but you know, she kind
11:44
Speaker 2: of she kind of gave me the pat on the
11:46
Speaker 2: shoulder and said, we all do our part. I think
11:48
Speaker 2: that here's here's what I'll tell you is really interesting
11:51
Speaker 2: and I think this has been an underpinning to the
11:54
Speaker 2: whole my whole journey and even the journey of the product.
11:58
Speaker 2: The first FDA of proof product for women's desire, right
12:01
Speaker 2: is I think there was a cultural moment in which
12:04
Speaker 2: all things related to sex became objectification for women. I
12:08
Speaker 2: would say that's the Steino moment, right like, I think
12:11
Speaker 2: she really deeply felt that and was fighting against that.
12:14
Speaker 2: I can't speak for her, but just based on all
12:16
Speaker 2: the things I've read and consumed, and I think that
12:19
Speaker 2: that has shifted through time, and I feel that actually
12:24
Speaker 2: it's complete agency to have power over your own pleasure.
12:30
Speaker 2: I don't believe you can go through the sexual revolution
12:34
Speaker 2: and end it reproduction. I don't think we've actually made
12:37
Speaker 2: change until we see it all the way through pleasure.
12:40
Speaker 2: And so I hope you have sex the rest of
12:42
Speaker 2: your life. And the reason I say that is because
12:45
Speaker 2: the benefits to your physical and mental health are undeniable,
12:49
Speaker 2: and it's the connection that we need as we want
12:53
Speaker 2: as human means. If you don't want to have sex,
12:54
Speaker 2: don't have sex, but by all means, you deserve pleasure
12:57
Speaker 2: for the entirety of your life. Sex actually isn't just
13:01
Speaker 2: a means for reproduction. I reject that.
13:04
Speaker 1: I really like your response to that. I didn't have
13:07
Speaker 1: the words for it, but I felt like well, I
13:12
Speaker 1: hope I get to have sex the rest of my
13:14
Speaker 1: life because to me, so much of it is about
13:18
Speaker 1: like creativity and freedom, and if that's something that you want,
13:24
Speaker 1: there should be a way to try and make that happen.
13:28
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the conversations you had when you first
13:32
Speaker 1: had this spark of an idea. Can you take me
13:35
Speaker 1: back to that moment when you see the brain scans
13:38
Speaker 1: light up? What was your next move? Who did you
13:40
Speaker 1: talk to you What did those early conversations look like.
13:42
Speaker 2: Okay, my very first move was I talked to all
13:45
Speaker 2: the best researchers in the world, and I said, can
13:48
Speaker 2: I talk to any of your patients? And I spent
13:51
Speaker 2: a year with the best researchers in the world, really
13:54
Speaker 2: like most of them having moved the entire category of
13:57
Speaker 2: men's sexual health forward, and you know, they met with
14:00
Speaker 2: partners to these some of these men had partners who
14:02
Speaker 2: were similarly struggling. And what I couldn't believe is not
14:06
Speaker 2: only that I was so really privileged that women shared
14:11
Speaker 2: this private struggle with me, but also how similar their
14:15
Speaker 2: stories were. It's I'm going back to that, like Microsoft, like,
14:18
Speaker 2: what's the common thread, right, what's the common thread. These
14:20
Speaker 2: were women of all age bands, of all walks of life,
14:23
Speaker 2: of all different relationship status, and yet almost to a person,
14:28
Speaker 2: they described it the same way. They're like, I don't
14:30
Speaker 2: know what happened is like the switch one out?
14:32
Speaker 1: They're like, I once was there an age that happened?
14:36
Speaker 2: No, totally indiscriminate across the age bands, like I'm talking
14:40
Speaker 2: everything from you know, a twenty two year old to
14:43
Speaker 2: a sixty five year old to a seventy year old.
14:46
Speaker 2: We got the best letter from a woman that was
14:47
Speaker 2: seventy seven at the company. But the common thread was
14:51
Speaker 2: I want to want but something changed and I can't.
14:57
Speaker 2: I can't figure out what it is. And it it
15:00
Speaker 2: turns out what it was was biology. And yet the
15:04
Speaker 2: narrative and the culture fed to her like try harder.
15:09
Speaker 2: I think there's so many parallels in this to the
15:12
Speaker 2: conversation that I hope we're having around obesity, weight, you
15:18
Speaker 2: know where, think about for so long we've shamed and
15:22
Speaker 2: stigmatized people with this struggle, and then all of a
15:26
Speaker 2: sudden and they've tried all the lifestyle modify. It's all
15:29
Speaker 2: lifestyle modification is always good for all of us. Sleep more,
15:32
Speaker 2: be less, stressed, don't drink, all those things we all know.
15:36
Speaker 2: But regardless of what they did, it didn't shift. And
15:40
Speaker 2: then it's as if the world in the last few
15:42
Speaker 2: years went, oh my god, maybe it's genetics. Oh my god,
15:48
Speaker 2: are you of course it's genetics. And so here are
15:51
Speaker 2: these folks that have struggled for so long and now
15:54
Speaker 2: there's a solution for them. But they waded through all
15:57
Speaker 2: of that shame and stigma. And I feel like I
15:59
Speaker 2: draw a lot of parallels to that here because these
16:01
Speaker 2: women were so struggling and no one was listening. They
16:07
Speaker 2: were telling them basically do better.
16:09
Speaker 1: When I think about what the rhetoric would be for
16:13
Speaker 1: a man who was saying I'm struggling with this, there's
16:16
Speaker 1: so much empathy. They feel sorry for their manhood. There's
16:21
Speaker 1: just so much there. And we're telling women to do better.
16:23
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean like we value male leisure and
16:26
Speaker 2: men similarly feel quite entitled to it because that's culturally embedded,
16:32
Speaker 2: and women don't, which is culturally embedded. And you know,
16:36
Speaker 2: that's really what we've got to examine. I mean, I say,
16:39
Speaker 2: my fiance and I have this party trick. I don't
16:41
Speaker 2: know that's really a party trick, but he thinks it is,
16:43
Speaker 2: and at some point in the night, you know, the
16:45
Speaker 2: conversation comes up, like what do you do?
16:47
Speaker 3: What do you do?
16:47
Speaker 2: And when people ask me that, he looks at him
16:49
Speaker 2: like and hear shakes his head like, oh god, buckle up.
16:54
Speaker 3: Here she goes.
16:55
Speaker 2: And what's so interesting is if you have, you know,
16:57
Speaker 2: like a male female couple stand across from you, and
17:00
Speaker 2: I say, there's a moment that the woman has to
17:04
Speaker 2: process like are we talking about this out loud? There's
17:07
Speaker 2: an actual, like almost physical lean back away from me,
17:11
Speaker 2: and then the guy leans in and he's like can
17:13
Speaker 2: I take it? And all I'm seeing and that interaction
17:17
Speaker 2: is the cultural conditioning that he understands that he's entitled
17:22
Speaker 2: to pleasure and she's not sure we even are allowed
17:25
Speaker 2: to discuss it.
17:26
Speaker 1: It's mirrored in pornography. I took a gender studies class
17:29
Speaker 1: in college and had three weeks on pornography and we
17:33
Speaker 1: actually had to watch certain videos and see that the
17:38
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be sort of graphic, but yeah,
17:41
Speaker 1: the end of most porn videos is a cumshot and
17:46
Speaker 1: it's about male pleasure. It has nothing to do with
17:49
Speaker 1: female pleasure. And that is the like, what is it
17:53
Speaker 1: called in a song?
17:53
Speaker 3: The climax, the climaction always all my.
17:59
Speaker 2: Words, I'm sorry, welcome to my life.
18:04
Speaker 1: So if you can nerd out with me, how does
18:06
Speaker 1: the drug work?
18:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, to know how it works is just to understand
18:09
Speaker 2: its origin. So just think for a second. I'm looking
18:11
Speaker 2: at these brain scan studies. Right, here's this radical difference
18:17
Speaker 2: in the ignition in essence of the sex center of
18:19
Speaker 2: the brain. So, punchline, this is women's biggest sex organ.
18:23
Speaker 3: Their brain.
18:24
Speaker 2: We are brain flow, not blood flow, truly, Like this
18:28
Speaker 2: is where it ignites.
18:29
Speaker 3: And so ada is a mood drug.
18:31
Speaker 2: It works on dopamine and serotonin, works on key like neurotransmitters.
18:37
Speaker 2: And what you know is like, we're actually quite familiar
18:39
Speaker 2: with products that work on neurotransmitters. We anti depressants, anti
18:43
Speaker 2: anxiety meds, It've been on market for years. What are
18:46
Speaker 2: their most common side effects? They harm your sex drive.
18:49
Speaker 2: So basically the thesis was, well, if it's true that
18:52
Speaker 2: we can work on those neurotransmitters and it causes depression
18:57
Speaker 2: of sexual function, then it should also be true scientifically
19:00
Speaker 2: that you could work there and increase it. And that's
19:03
Speaker 2: that's Addie in a nutshell. I mean, in its most
19:06
Speaker 2: basic form, it's a non hormonal pill that's working on
19:10
Speaker 2: igniting that sex center of the brain. And that was
19:14
Speaker 2: the switch that had gone out for all of those
19:16
Speaker 2: women that I taught. Like, that's why I think they
19:18
Speaker 2: describe it that way, because it's really like that, it
19:22
Speaker 2: never percolates, it never responds to sexual cues.
19:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sort of thinking like a light switch, like
19:28
Speaker 1: it just doesn't turn on. Yep, this is going to
19:31
Speaker 1: be an ignorant question. I try not to ask those
19:33
Speaker 1: on this podcast, but similar to I think questions that
19:38
Speaker 1: people had around viagra. Yeah, the fear was that you
19:41
Speaker 1: took a viagra and you would be hard all day
19:44
Speaker 1: or at inconvenient times.
19:46
Speaker 2: Yeah.
19:47
Speaker 1: What is the equivalent to that with Addie? Is it
19:50
Speaker 1: just when the sexual cue happens? And can you like
19:54
Speaker 1: what if you're at work and you're like, wait, why
19:56
Speaker 1: why did my boss say something? It's like that's I
19:59
Speaker 1: didn't mean to get turned on by that.
20:01
Speaker 3: That's funny. I'll tell you.
20:03
Speaker 2: What's so funny is like the very first piece of
20:06
Speaker 2: press I did. They came to the office, it was
20:09
Speaker 2: nightline and they're like, but what happens if Channing Tatum
20:12
Speaker 2: walks into the world.
20:14
Speaker 1: That's actually a way better way of asking the question what.
20:21
Speaker 3: Is happening.
20:22
Speaker 2: The truth is no, it's much more subtle than that.
20:26
Speaker 2: It's really like returning back to that normal you once had.
20:31
Speaker 2: And I think that it's about really you do ignite
20:34
Speaker 2: around partner. It's not hyper sexuality. Let me say it
20:38
Speaker 2: a different way. In fact, honestly, in clinical trials you
20:42
Speaker 2: must measure for that. You have to make sure that
20:46
Speaker 2: on the scales you're not pushing people into hyper sexuality.
20:51
Speaker 2: And I'll go back to that parallel even around like
20:54
Speaker 2: you know, medications that work on anxiety and stuff or
20:58
Speaker 2: or mood.
20:59
Speaker 3: You know, you're isn't.
21:00
Speaker 2: Like euphoria, right, You're not walking around euphoric every day.
21:04
Speaker 2: You're just back to that like place where you were
21:07
Speaker 2: doing you know, your best, And that's I think that's
21:10
Speaker 2: adding and in truth, like honestly, it's also an important
21:13
Speaker 2: expectation because if people think they're gonna like take a
21:17
Speaker 2: naddy and swing from the chandelier tonight.
21:19
Speaker 3: I'm gonna disappoint you.
21:21
Speaker 2: Not because of the drug if that happens, because it's
21:24
Speaker 2: really just not how it works.
21:25
Speaker 1: Right, And you said it affects or it works with
21:29
Speaker 1: the dopamine. Yeah, in your brain does it affect the dopamine?
21:34
Speaker 1: So if you're taking it consistently, is your body still
21:39
Speaker 1: developing the same amount of dopamine if you stop taking it?
21:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really sort of that. And I think it's
21:46
Speaker 2: similar to like that dopamine is around excitation, like excitatory factors.
21:53
Speaker 2: That's why in mood products like they're the happy you know,
21:55
Speaker 2: we all know the dopamine, the dopamine phenomenon, and then
21:58
Speaker 2: like the distinct I think in ADDIE's mechanism is it's
22:02
Speaker 2: around inhibition. So typically, like why do these mood products
22:07
Speaker 2: like SSRIs is a classic drug cause that it's caused
22:10
Speaker 2: like sexual libido to drop. It's typically because it causes
22:14
Speaker 2: some inhibition.
22:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. What's a belief about sex that you
22:19
Speaker 1: wish every woman could unlearn today?
22:23
Speaker 2: The greatest lie you were ever sold is that sex
22:25
Speaker 2: for you is rooted solely in emotion and not biology.
22:29
Speaker 1: That's so relieving.
22:30
Speaker 2: It is so relieving actually, like when you're really struggling
22:33
Speaker 2: with this, and I will say maybe the best moment
22:37
Speaker 2: for me in any room is when a woman comes
22:39
Speaker 2: over and talks to me about this and.
22:41
Speaker 3: She has actual relief.
22:43
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think that it's so prototypical for women
22:47
Speaker 2: who struggle with this condition type A in charge, succeeding
22:51
Speaker 2: in every aspect of their life, and like the tabs
22:54
Speaker 2: never close for her to really enjoy sex or think
22:57
Speaker 2: about sex, and then she realizes like, oh, but it's
23:01
Speaker 2: brain chemistry. Yeah, and then all of those things that
23:05
Speaker 2: she's felt bad about or felt defensive about really slip away.
23:09
Speaker 2: And it's that same grace we give to people who
23:13
Speaker 2: struggle with medical issues when we say, no, no, it's
23:16
Speaker 2: not you. It's your genetics or your biology betraying you.
23:19
Speaker 3: And there are.
23:20
Speaker 2: Ways that you can do that. And there's a myriad
23:22
Speaker 2: of ways, right, Like, it doesn't mean in lieu of
23:25
Speaker 2: lifestyle modifications and some of that work, but to have
23:28
Speaker 2: those tools makes all the difference.
23:31
Speaker 1: Viagra was fast tracked for approval within six months, yeah,
23:35
Speaker 1: and Addie took six years. The irony of the six
23:40
Speaker 1: is just not lost on me. Can you break it
23:43
Speaker 1: down for us? What did the system teach you about
23:46
Speaker 1: the types of gaps and solutions for women?
23:49
Speaker 2: It speaks volumes at disparity doesn't it. That's all I
23:52
Speaker 2: have to say to you is that the blue pill
23:54
Speaker 2: was deemed to me such and an important unmet medical need.
23:59
Speaker 2: It was so important for a man to get an
24:01
Speaker 2: erection that it received fast track status through the FDA
24:05
Speaker 2: in just six months. It took us six years. And
24:08
Speaker 2: don't miss this point, we had four times as many
24:12
Speaker 2: patients worth of data in our clinical trials. ADI is
24:16
Speaker 2: the largest studied drug for sex at the time of approval,
24:20
Speaker 2: male or female. So, like you, just I want women
24:24
Speaker 2: to hear that we have more data on a product
24:27
Speaker 2: for sex for women, And I think that's really, like,
24:30
Speaker 2: it was so important to see that. Like I was
24:34
Speaker 2: debating when you said, what's the one other thing you'd
24:37
Speaker 2: want women to relearn about sex? It's really this pleasure principle,
24:41
Speaker 2: isn't it, Because like exactly your experiment on porn is
24:45
Speaker 2: that the construct is pleasure is ours to deliver, not
24:50
Speaker 2: ours to receive. And I think that goes way beyond
24:54
Speaker 2: the bedroom.
24:55
Speaker 1: By the way, where do you put pleasure with desire?
24:57
Speaker 1: Because I guess my next question for you after hearing
25:00
Speaker 1: that was why do you think female desire still makes
25:02
Speaker 1: people so uncomfortable?
25:04
Speaker 2: You know, I think that it's just is potentially the
25:07
Speaker 2: most scary thing to all of the cultural norms. A
25:11
Speaker 2: woman who has complete agency over everything, including her own satisfaction.
25:17
Speaker 2: And I don't mean that to be like independent and
25:19
Speaker 2: needs nobody, Like we all want human connection and and
25:23
Speaker 2: you know, intimacy with a partner in all of that,
25:25
Speaker 2: but like, is that really what is challenged here? This
25:29
Speaker 2: like idea and when we when we have to move
25:32
Speaker 2: away from a notion that women are ruled solely by
25:35
Speaker 2: their emotion scary to us. It's so deeply embedded. I mean,
25:40
Speaker 2: for your like health care, Like healthcare is embedded with
25:44
Speaker 2: this bias. It's embedded in every way. It's not only
25:48
Speaker 2: in the regulatory queue that would impose a radically double standard,
25:53
Speaker 2: you know for products specifically for women, but it shows
25:57
Speaker 2: up in you know, medical training, in the interaction with
26:01
Speaker 2: medical professionals, in advertising standards, Like it's just really through
26:08
Speaker 2: every I've lived, every, every single aspect of that in
26:11
Speaker 2: this journey.
26:13
Speaker 1: Well, you essentially fought the US government over this drug.
26:18
Speaker 1: We're kind of giggling, but it's not funny. You really did.
26:21
Speaker 1: As someone who's gone head to head with an agency
26:24
Speaker 1: like the FDA, What did you.
26:26
Speaker 3: Learn that.
26:31
Speaker 2: You have humans on the other side of the table
26:35
Speaker 2: that have unbelievable unconscious bias and that in a way,
26:40
Speaker 2: like those things that we believe sacred and just scientific standards. Look,
26:43
Speaker 2: all science is just you got to prove it, right,
26:47
Speaker 2: you do it with blinded trials, you do it with
26:50
Speaker 2: plascebo controls. You have to meet the definitions of success
26:53
Speaker 2: that the FDA themselves set for you. And yet right,
26:58
Speaker 2: and yet we were interpreting data through a lens of opinion.
27:04
Speaker 2: I mean the amount of discussion that happened when we
27:07
Speaker 2: were first approved around how much more sex should she
27:09
Speaker 2: need to have for her to get a drug?
27:11
Speaker 1: What did you ultimately have to prove to get the
27:13
Speaker 1: drug approved?
27:14
Speaker 2: So we proved three things. So in clinical trials we
27:16
Speaker 2: had to prove not only did we increase women's desire
27:19
Speaker 2: to have sex, but when they had sex, it was
27:22
Speaker 2: more satisfying sex to them. And importantly, don't miss this,
27:26
Speaker 2: that it reduced their distress. ADDIE's a mood drug. And
27:31
Speaker 2: women who are struggling with this are really struggling with this,
27:35
Speaker 2: Like we can laugh and I've been in sex for
27:38
Speaker 2: so long, I tell really great jokes, right, because that's
27:40
Speaker 2: a way to enter into sometimes these conversations that can
27:43
Speaker 2: be tougher for people to have, and yet like they're
27:47
Speaker 2: really struggling with it. So my takeaway from the FDA is,
27:50
Speaker 2: FDA is filled with humans. Humans can impose their own bias,
27:56
Speaker 2: and you've got to be relentless in really exposing that
28:02
Speaker 2: bias and getting to the answer. Science had the answer
28:06
Speaker 2: the whole time. It just took us a minute to
28:08
Speaker 2: get out of our own way and listen to it.
28:11
Speaker 1: About two questions ago, when I asked you about fighting
28:14
Speaker 1: the government or the FDA, you took a big breath
28:18
Speaker 1: before you answered me. What do you remember about that time? Personally,
28:22
Speaker 1: it signaled like it was just more difficult than you
28:25
Speaker 1: were even letting on.
28:26
Speaker 3: Oh it's are you joke?
28:28
Speaker 2: It's been so the trauma in a way to me,
28:32
Speaker 2: Like I'm a very optimistic person. I believe if you're
28:37
Speaker 2: faced with the obstacle, you got to find the work around,
28:40
Speaker 2: you know, convicted to the core and yet right like
28:44
Speaker 2: I have moments like I just had to bury it
28:48
Speaker 2: and move through and bury it and move through, and
28:51
Speaker 2: like I'm ten years out now and I can look
28:53
Speaker 2: back on that. I can look back on just the
28:56
Speaker 2: craziest letters that would come in and like I think
28:59
Speaker 2: about my dad and how upset he was right, like
29:03
Speaker 2: I'm going to get upset because like, oh my god.
29:05
Speaker 2: And he would say to me, Cindy, can you please
29:07
Speaker 2: just work on diabetes? Like his reason for that was
29:11
Speaker 2: because when it's sex, everyone has an opinion, but you
29:15
Speaker 2: just stay that, you know, you stay the course, and
29:17
Speaker 2: it tests you to see how much do you really
29:21
Speaker 2: want to see this through? Like how much does it matter?
29:23
Speaker 2: And I think that's every that's still today, right, I
29:27
Speaker 2: still get these crazy challenges and it's not just people's opinion.
29:30
Speaker 2: It's just like how do you dismantle the systemic bias
29:34
Speaker 2: that's holding women back? And like the hill I die on,
29:37
Speaker 2: is no more medical gaslighting of women?
29:40
Speaker 1: Are the tears from your dad? Your dad's fear, your
29:46
Speaker 1: dad's nerves? Oh what was that?
29:48
Speaker 3: Yeah?
29:48
Speaker 2: I think it's just like the you know, everybody who's
29:51
Speaker 2: around me has had to live through this too, Like
29:53
Speaker 2: I chose it, they didn't, and they had to watch
29:57
Speaker 2: all the arrows being thrown. I mean, you know, it's funny.
30:01
Speaker 2: I have two big brothers. Like how everybody My family
30:04
Speaker 2: stood with me the day at the FDA. They all
30:06
Speaker 2: came right and like they stood there and waited for
30:09
Speaker 2: this decision, and yet you know they had been through
30:12
Speaker 2: their own Termoal. My brother to this day, when I
30:14
Speaker 2: call him, there is the most hideous photo like illustration
30:19
Speaker 2: of me from one of the articles at the time,
30:22
Speaker 2: and it's still like he saved it in his phones.
30:24
Speaker 2: Every time I call him, it's what pops up because
30:26
Speaker 2: he thinks it's funny.
30:27
Speaker 3: He likes to show me a good brother, you know.
30:30
Speaker 2: And but I'm like, I'm I'm the devil, Like I'm
30:34
Speaker 2: painted like the devil in this thing.
30:37
Speaker 3: And it fueled me.
30:38
Speaker 2: But there's no question it came with some some cost.
30:42
Speaker 2: Like I don't allow myself to feel that often, Daniel,
30:45
Speaker 2: But I think when you ask, like it's it's underneath
30:48
Speaker 2: the surface.
30:49
Speaker 1: I could only imagine. I mean, it's sort of I
30:52
Speaker 1: think like our version of the Salem witch Trials in
30:55
Speaker 1: some ways. Yeah, do you ever get cynical? What keeps
30:58
Speaker 1: you going?
31:00
Speaker 3: This to God?
31:00
Speaker 2: What keeps me going is that women to this day
31:03
Speaker 2: still write me every day. They might send me a DM,
31:06
Speaker 2: they might send me an email, and like I just
31:09
Speaker 2: got one from a woman literally last night, and I
31:12
Speaker 2: like said, this brings tears to my eyes that you
31:14
Speaker 2: would take the time tell me this story. And like
31:17
Speaker 2: she said, I've got hope back. And she's like, and
31:20
Speaker 2: I realize that you've actually been doing this for a
31:22
Speaker 2: long time. Like, I'm sure she has fought her own
31:25
Speaker 2: personal battle, right, So like, thanks for continuing continuing the fight.
31:29
Speaker 2: So that's what really keeps me going. I mean, I
31:31
Speaker 2: think we all have our moments of cynicism. But again,
31:35
Speaker 2: like to me, that's just the challenge and the test
31:39
Speaker 2: of like, how much are you gonna you know, see
31:41
Speaker 2: this all the way through? And the answer is to
31:44
Speaker 2: the end until we change the conversation forever.
31:48
Speaker 1: Earlier, you clarified a difference between women being understudied and
31:52
Speaker 1: undervalued in twenty twenty five. How are women still so
31:58
Speaker 1: undervalued from a healthcare perspective?
32:01
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
32:02
Speaker 2: Women are undervalued for that very premise, that is that
32:06
Speaker 2: women are are ruled by emotion or psychology and not biology.
32:12
Speaker 2: So long as I can continue to believe that, I
32:14
Speaker 2: can continue to dismiss you when you show up with
32:16
Speaker 2: real medical symptoms, right, And unfortunately I think this is
32:21
Speaker 2: the thing now we have to be hyper conscious of.
32:24
Speaker 2: So because of that, like we are because we are undervalued,
32:27
Speaker 2: we are understudied, and so what we've found as our
32:32
Speaker 2: medicine has been unproven, often like questionable products that aren't
32:39
Speaker 2: studied in our bodies, that have no merit to the
32:42
Speaker 2: claims that they make, and so long as we continue
32:45
Speaker 2: to allow that or be participants in purchasing those things,
32:49
Speaker 2: no one ever gets an incentive to study us. So
32:52
Speaker 2: we're part of the cycle. Like I hate to say that.
32:54
Speaker 2: I mean, I say it to all my girlfriends who
32:56
Speaker 2: like bring a baggie full of all sorts of things
32:59
Speaker 2: that they take to every lunch table. I'm like, what
33:01
Speaker 2: is that? Who studied it? Where is it monitored? And
33:04
Speaker 2: I'm it's not to say that there aren't products that are,
33:07
Speaker 2: you know, wonderful out there that are certainly alternatives to medication. However,
33:12
Speaker 2: if we accept that the gummy is all we got,
33:16
Speaker 2: we're never getting real science. And I think I'm seeing
33:20
Speaker 2: that that shift even generate racially, where they're like, Nope,
33:25
Speaker 2: don't sell me the thing with the big promise and
33:28
Speaker 2: the little fine print that says you've never studied it
33:30
Speaker 2: in my body. You know, there's no merit to those clams.
33:33
Speaker 2: So I think that's where we break understudied when we
33:37
Speaker 2: demand more evidence.
33:39
Speaker 1: I've seen you talk about this topic, but I personally
33:44
Speaker 1: was shocked to learn just a year or two ago
33:46
Speaker 1: that tampons weren't tested with real female blood, and so
33:51
Speaker 1: it was like, yeah, of course they're not working great
33:53
Speaker 1: for all of us, are we surpromised? I know, And
33:57
Speaker 1: that's something that affects fifty percent of the population every
33:59
Speaker 1: single It's really wild.
34:02
Speaker 3: It's wild. It's wild.
34:04
Speaker 2: Like there's so many layers, like we could have a
34:06
Speaker 2: whole show just on this, like how does this begin?
34:08
Speaker 3: When did it begin? Right?
34:10
Speaker 2: How does it get perpetuated? And like and now great,
34:14
Speaker 2: what can I do about it?
34:16
Speaker 3: Right?
34:16
Speaker 2: And I think what I can do about it is
34:18
Speaker 2: that that demand of evidence.
34:21
Speaker 1: I have to give you your flowers because it's rare
34:24
Speaker 1: to see a person do so many things at such
34:27
Speaker 1: a high level. You are not just a scientist an expert.
34:31
Speaker 1: You're an expert science communicator and you're a bad ass
34:36
Speaker 1: business woman. And I don't use that term. I don't
34:40
Speaker 1: like like colloquialisms in that way, but you really embody it.
34:44
Speaker 1: You reacquired sprout after selling it for a billion dollars
34:49
Speaker 1: with a bee you could have done anything after that.
34:53
Speaker 1: To me, that signal you had unfinished business. What should Yeah,
34:59
Speaker 1: what shaped your DECI vision to go back?
35:01
Speaker 2: You know, when a woman sets out to do something,
35:05
Speaker 2: she doesn't stop until it's done. And I did not
35:08
Speaker 2: fight this hard when men had twenty six FDA pre
35:12
Speaker 2: products for women to finally have won for the company
35:16
Speaker 2: who purchased it from me to put it on the shelf,
35:20
Speaker 2: not on my watch, no chance.
35:23
Speaker 3: That was not what we set out to do.
35:25
Speaker 2: And I really tell you, like, this has never been
35:27
Speaker 2: about a product at all. This has been about something
35:32
Speaker 2: so much bigger, bigger than me, and about changing a conversation.
35:36
Speaker 2: And to me, like it was devastating when we finally
35:41
Speaker 2: won and then women couldn't get it, what all those
35:45
Speaker 2: women that had talked to me and everything else. And
35:47
Speaker 2: so I think it was just about making right by
35:50
Speaker 2: the mission.
35:50
Speaker 1: Did anyone try to talk you out of it?
35:52
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I think that the you know,
35:56
Speaker 2: the sigh of relief after like being out of the
36:00
Speaker 2: the line of fire, right like just the arrows, Like
36:03
Speaker 2: I always say that, I know, like you know, what's
36:05
Speaker 2: the expression, like the pioneers have arrows in their back.
36:07
Speaker 2: I'm always looking around like I feel I think I
36:10
Speaker 2: still have some marks there and like you get beyond that,
36:13
Speaker 2: and everybody would have assumed. I think that success for
36:16
Speaker 2: me was defined as that big exit, like it is
36:19
Speaker 2: an entrepreneurial dream come true. Right, I've created a solution
36:22
Speaker 2: to a big need and that's why. And yet that's
36:26
Speaker 2: not my definition of success, and so it wasn't done.
36:30
Speaker 1: What is your definition of success now, impact? Yeah, what's
36:35
Speaker 1: something in business that you have done like a woman
36:39
Speaker 1: and it worked better than the boys? Oh?
36:42
Speaker 3: I love it? Well.
36:43
Speaker 2: I have to storytell this to to tell you. So
36:47
Speaker 2: I was in a pitch meeting and I had some
36:49
Speaker 2: of my like now you know VC friends, the guys
36:53
Speaker 2: in the blue and gray suits, exactly as you would imagine,
36:56
Speaker 2: who absolutely would have never written me a check at
36:58
Speaker 2: the beginning, but now they think, maybe.
37:01
Speaker 3: Cindy's onto something. I'm going to come sit in this room.
37:03
Speaker 2: And there was a woman who was pitching a technology
37:07
Speaker 2: to basically help with concussions, and in the middle of
37:11
Speaker 2: her presentation, she like got very choked up, just like
37:14
Speaker 2: I did with you, not that long ago, right, she
37:16
Speaker 2: got choked up and she moved through it. But she
37:20
Speaker 2: had like this box of all her prototypes and it
37:23
Speaker 2: was like it was like in her grandmother's old Cuban
37:26
Speaker 2: cigar box. I loved it. We left the room, and
37:29
Speaker 2: it's funny. The guy sat with me and they were like,
37:32
Speaker 2: I can't believe you didn't say something to her when
37:34
Speaker 2: she broke down, And I said, like what, And they're like,
37:37
Speaker 2: you know, there's no crying in business, like the kind
37:39
Speaker 2: of there's no Cindy, you're her mentor like you go
37:42
Speaker 2: tell her that. I said, you guys are such idiots.
37:45
Speaker 2: The moment that she started to cry was the moment
37:47
Speaker 2: I knew I was investing. That was the moment like
37:51
Speaker 2: I knew how much it mattered to her that minute,
37:55
Speaker 2: like it I'm gonna cry, Like I feel that of
37:57
Speaker 2: founders right, like you're so emotionally invested, Like she's not
38:02
Speaker 2: going to stop until it's done. Like it's the same thing.
38:05
Speaker 2: And like they they read it as a sign of weakness.
38:08
Speaker 2: I read it completely differently in that room, completely different.
38:12
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful you shared that story. I'm a crier?
38:16
Speaker 1: Are you a crier?
38:17
Speaker 3: A total crier.
38:18
Speaker 2: Yes, such a crier, and I have to see Hi, everybody.
38:24
Speaker 1: Well, you're actually a very pretty crier. I not so much.
38:28
Speaker 1: I more have the ugly Kim Kardashian crying face. But
38:31
Speaker 1: I've cried at work a few times, and I'm always
38:34
Speaker 1: sort of questioning whether that's okay or not, and I'm
38:38
Speaker 1: not sure, and so I I think sometimes I cry
38:40
Speaker 1: out of frustration, sometimes out of passion, And so thank
38:44
Speaker 1: you for sharing that. Yeah, from your perspective of making
38:49
Speaker 1: a deal, how do you know you're being taken? Seriously,
38:52
Speaker 1: how do you know when you have the upper hand.
38:55
Speaker 2: I think there's a moment when the room goes silent,
39:00
Speaker 2: and you know, like I think that's the moment where
39:04
Speaker 2: they're just quietly listening.
39:07
Speaker 3: And I think if you don't have that moment, you
39:12
Speaker 3: go silent until they do.
39:16
Speaker 2: I presented at like the biggest healthcare conference. It was
39:20
Speaker 2: like I had won Willy wonkas ticket. Like I was
39:22
Speaker 2: like this tiny little you know, this tiny little private
39:24
Speaker 2: company trying to get this big ambition of this product approved.
39:28
Speaker 2: Forget that I already had a track record having built
39:30
Speaker 2: and sold a company, but like this seemed so far afield.
39:33
Speaker 2: Nobody wanted to touch it. And I remember being invited
39:36
Speaker 2: and you get like you got like six minutes on
39:39
Speaker 2: the clock, eight minutes on the clock, I can't remember,
39:41
Speaker 2: and like your big counter is right in front of you.
39:43
Speaker 2: And I got up to talk about sex and it
39:45
Speaker 2: was a room full of bankers. The giggle that went
39:50
Speaker 2: across the crowd, you cannot believe it like started and
39:53
Speaker 2: it like went through the whole audience like the wave.
39:56
Speaker 2: And I remember like looking up because they were so loud,
40:00
Speaker 2: and I'm watching my like minutes disappear, and I fast
40:04
Speaker 2: forward in my slide as fast as I could do
40:06
Speaker 2: the brain scans, and I just went silent and pointed
40:10
Speaker 2: until the whole room went silent, and I was like,
40:13
Speaker 2: I'm just here to talk about the biology of sex.
40:16
Speaker 3: Can I continue?
40:18
Speaker 2: And like they didn't make another peep the rest of
40:20
Speaker 2: them meeting.
40:22
Speaker 1: They like you went full on sixth grade teacher on them.
40:25
Speaker 2: They were like, yes, but it made them conscious of
40:29
Speaker 2: how ridiculous they were. And I think you do know,
40:31
Speaker 2: like in a moment where you've got the room like
40:33
Speaker 2: they are listening to you, you hear it, like you
40:36
Speaker 2: hear the lack of like all the chitter chatter, and
40:39
Speaker 2: I would just say, like, I think it's one of
40:41
Speaker 2: my my negotiation tricks for all ladies. If you're not
40:44
Speaker 2: being taken seriously, just go quiet for a minute.
40:47
Speaker 1: Which can be a little uncomfortable, so you'll have to
40:49
Speaker 1: get used to that totally.
40:52
Speaker 2: Say I told you that was the value of my
40:53
Speaker 2: childhood being comfortable being uncomfortable.
40:57
Speaker 1: Great call to bring a full circle. You had an
41:00
Speaker 1: incubator called the Pink Ceiling and it gives candid feedback
41:04
Speaker 1: to women entrepreneurs to pitch you, and you have this quote.
41:09
Speaker 1: I love you said. What I fear is that if
41:10
Speaker 1: we do too much cheerleading and not enough straight talk,
41:13
Speaker 1: we're going to set up a lot of young women
41:15
Speaker 1: for failure. They were brave enough to start a business
41:18
Speaker 1: from scratch, and we congratulate them for it without telling
41:21
Speaker 1: them candidly that their business plan isn't scalable or sustainable. Okay,
41:27
Speaker 1: you said you're an optimist, and so I wouldn't be
41:31
Speaker 1: curious about everyone's answer, But I'm curious about your answer
41:34
Speaker 1: to this, because how are you balancing being an idealist
41:39
Speaker 1: who can spot a unicorn disruptor company and a realist
41:43
Speaker 1: who knows when something's not going to work.
41:46
Speaker 2: I speak truth always because I think that's the greatest
41:49
Speaker 2: sign of respect that we can give to each other.
41:53
Speaker 2: But I will always lean toward optimism, and because I
42:00
Speaker 2: I think every woman deserves to know that somebody is
42:03
Speaker 2: betting on her. She's not given a lot of that,
42:06
Speaker 2: And so like if I had to trade one over another,
42:10
Speaker 2: I'll lean toward optimism. But I do think in that quote,
42:13
Speaker 2: and I appreciate you picking that one out, I think
42:16
Speaker 2: candor is compassion. I think saying it straight to each
42:20
Speaker 2: other is the most respectful thing we can do. And
42:23
Speaker 2: the last thing I want when I think of you know,
42:26
Speaker 2: the I'm so lucky, like people with big dreams come
42:29
Speaker 2: and share them with me, and I might get to
42:31
Speaker 2: be a participant, you know in that Like if I
42:34
Speaker 2: don't say the truth to them, they do have all
42:37
Speaker 2: the chops to go do it. It's just not this thing,
42:41
Speaker 2: And that's what I want to make sure that I reinforce.
42:44
Speaker 3: It's not them. Just as the.
42:46
Speaker 1: Idea people with big dreams come and share them with
42:50
Speaker 1: me is such a beautiful thing to say. Yeah, what
42:53
Speaker 1: do you think the best way to give negative feedback is?
42:57
Speaker 1: Do you do that?
42:57
Speaker 2: Compliment sandwich n But no, I would much rather go
43:01
Speaker 2: straight in like I'm I'm always with somebody.
43:04
Speaker 3: Hopefully this isn't off putting to people.
43:06
Speaker 2: But I'm very like blunt, and you know, I want
43:09
Speaker 2: to say it with this may be hard to hear,
43:12
Speaker 2: but I need to tell you this and then we
43:14
Speaker 2: work through it on the other side of that, right, Like,
43:16
Speaker 2: but I think you have to just set the stage
43:19
Speaker 2: and I'm going to say it.
43:20
Speaker 3: I wonder what my team would say.
43:22
Speaker 2: I don't know if I even give them the preamble
43:24
Speaker 2: this might be hard to hear.
43:26
Speaker 1: I just say it, Well, they know you at this point.
43:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we talk about that, like I actually talk
43:30
Speaker 2: about that honestly, even in interviews, Like to be here
43:34
Speaker 2: is to be constructively irreverent, like that's part of our
43:38
Speaker 2: DNA and so you got to be able to listen
43:40
Speaker 2: to the thing and process it and in the end,
43:44
Speaker 2: like we will make a decision together, but we will
43:46
Speaker 2: lock arms and go conquer the world, like, but we're
43:49
Speaker 2: going to make that decision together in here, and we're
43:51
Speaker 2: going to tell each other the truth.
43:54
Speaker 1: For someone listening who does have an idea, and I
43:57
Speaker 1: will shout out the people that listen to this podcast
43:59
Speaker 1: because because they DM me and email me with such
44:04
Speaker 1: awesome ideas and they have they're really smart people. I
44:08
Speaker 1: always say they're interested and interesting. So I do think
44:10
Speaker 1: there will be a lot of people curious to hear
44:12
Speaker 1: your answer. For someone listening who does have an idea,
44:16
Speaker 1: give us your take on how to build a really
44:19
Speaker 1: amazing pitch that cuts through the noise.
44:22
Speaker 2: I will tell you, I think this is lost on
44:26
Speaker 2: a great pitch. It's really not about telling me what
44:30
Speaker 2: you're trying to do. It's convincing me why you're the
44:34
Speaker 2: one to do it. That's all I'm listening for. Great
44:38
Speaker 2: ideas don't execute themselves. People execute great ideas. And that's
44:44
Speaker 2: the only thing I'm really figuring out in that interaction
44:48
Speaker 2: with you.
44:50
Speaker 1: Wow, so you are fully of the mindset you're investing
44:53
Speaker 1: in the entrepreneur over those absolutely? Yeah. What do you
44:58
Speaker 1: know about power now that you and understand in your twenties?
45:02
Speaker 2: I think, look power in its most conventional definition. I
45:06
Speaker 2: think when we're in our twenties is you know that
45:09
Speaker 2: next rung of the ladder. It might be status, it
45:12
Speaker 2: might be money, it might be you know, celebrity for
45:16
Speaker 2: some people, and I'm very clear that power is impact
45:22
Speaker 2: and the deep contentment that comes from that, Like, actually,
45:27
Speaker 2: you know, there's a professional power, and professional power to
45:30
Speaker 2: me is really impact and the personal power is being
45:34
Speaker 2: content in who you are, so like doing those things
45:37
Speaker 2: that truly feed you and who you want to be
45:42
Speaker 2: in this world. Nothing will make you happier than that.
45:44
Speaker 1: I've been listening to a lot of podcasts lately with
45:47
Speaker 1: people who I think have I've coined this term post
45:50
Speaker 1: economic like they've made a ton of money and are
45:53
Speaker 1: sharing a lot of messages about self work, and I
45:58
Speaker 1: think sometimes it's hard to ingest because my first instinct
46:04
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, now you have the time to do
46:06
Speaker 1: all that the caveat And what I know deep down
46:13
Speaker 1: is that my career has only risen to the height
46:17
Speaker 1: of my personal growth, and so I really deeply understand
46:21
Speaker 1: the importance of what you're saying. My question is, what
46:25
Speaker 1: did you do personally to grow and to support your
46:30
Speaker 1: personal growth while you've been on this journey.
46:33
Speaker 2: I'm insanely curious, Like, I just think that's it, Like,
46:38
Speaker 2: as you describe your listeners, that's why I love you
46:40
Speaker 2: so much too, Like I love the like I'm endlessly fascinated.
46:45
Speaker 2: And so every day I sit down, whether I'm on
46:48
Speaker 2: like an airplane or you know, in my office, I
46:51
Speaker 2: recognize that I have mentors actually sitting to my left
46:54
Speaker 2: and my right. Everyone can teach you something, and I
46:57
Speaker 2: think that is the personal growth. Like I cannot even
47:00
Speaker 2: imagine like waking up tomorrow and be like I did it,
47:03
Speaker 2: I know it all. Like how boring would that day
47:06
Speaker 2: actually be? Every day I'm learning. When I built my
47:09
Speaker 2: first company, we had this like little in office procedure
47:13
Speaker 2: that you did, and it was new. So we filmed
47:16
Speaker 2: like all these experts in the world doing this procedure.
47:19
Speaker 2: And I can remember like the first medical conference we
47:22
Speaker 2: got up to like train the masses, and we showed
47:24
Speaker 2: all these different experts and I remember looking at the
47:28
Speaker 2: audience and it's an audience of surgeons. Okay, so I'm
47:32
Speaker 2: going to tell you ninety nine percent of the audience
47:35
Speaker 2: had their arms crossed in front of them and they
47:37
Speaker 2: were leaning back in their chair like modestly, like shaking
47:40
Speaker 2: their head like no, that's not how.
47:42
Speaker 1: You do it, no, no, no, wow.
47:44
Speaker 2: And one percent of the room was like leaning forward
47:46
Speaker 2: like ooh, I never thought of that. That's so interesting. Right,
47:50
Speaker 2: because not everybody does everything the same way. Who was
47:53
Speaker 2: the one percent, the one percent in the world, who
47:56
Speaker 2: were these the experts that everybody aspired to be. They
48:00
Speaker 2: were still learning and the rest of the room was like,
48:04
Speaker 2: that's not how you do it. And I think that
48:06
Speaker 2: was a wonderful lesson for me. And I think, you
48:09
Speaker 2: know how I try to live every day to continue
48:12
Speaker 2: to personally grow and again like find that contentment even
48:17
Speaker 2: in knowing you don't know everything, Like that's a that's
48:21
Speaker 2: good too. There's that means there's so much more of
48:23
Speaker 2: the journey left ahead.
48:25
Speaker 1: Yes, I have this quote on my card game that
48:28
Speaker 1: says charmed are the curious, for they shall have adventure.
48:32
Speaker 1: And I think curiosity is at the center of all
48:38
Speaker 1: the great stuff in life, like of creativity, of relationship.
48:42
Speaker 1: And it sounds so dorky to.
48:43
Speaker 2: Talk about, No, it's so spot on, Danielle.
48:47
Speaker 3: It's that's it.
48:48
Speaker 2: The most successful people like I feel like I've been
48:51
Speaker 2: so lucky to come across like people who've done big things.
48:56
Speaker 3: Like you know, famous things, all of that, and like, if.
48:59
Speaker 2: There's one thing they are insatiably curious, this is their magnificence,
49:06
Speaker 2: is like their curiosity, And so I love that I'm
49:10
Speaker 2: writing that down right now.
49:12
Speaker 1: Read no, No, I'll send it to U. I have
49:14
Speaker 1: to send you the card game anyways.
49:15
Speaker 2: I need to put it on my wall behind me
49:17
Speaker 2: next time we got on us.
49:19
Speaker 3: I love that.
49:21
Speaker 1: You actually just unlocked something for me, though, because I
49:24
Speaker 1: saw this great clip of Trevor Noah interviewing Oprah and
49:28
Speaker 1: he said, you've interviewed so many successful people, what do
49:31
Speaker 1: they all have in common? And she thought for a
49:34
Speaker 1: second and said, they all know where they're going. And
49:37
Speaker 1: it's a powerful statement, but I did not resonate with it.
49:43
Speaker 1: And listen, I'm not Oprah, but I've interviewed a bunch
49:46
Speaker 1: of people who don't necessarily know where they're going immediately
49:51
Speaker 1: they kind of feel the next right step. And so
49:54
Speaker 1: for you to say the common threat is curiosity, that
49:59
Speaker 1: is what I have fund That is the truth.
50:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would not say I know exactly where I'm going,
50:05
Speaker 2: no way, Like I actually don't even want to.
50:07
Speaker 3: I don't. I want to like.
50:09
Speaker 2: Have the the adventure ahead of learning something new that
50:13
Speaker 2: will inform where I go and make the next step,
50:17
Speaker 2: like being open always to that, like what the world
50:22
Speaker 2: is showing you or teaching you is so important to me.
50:26
Speaker 1: I agree. I really wish I could talk to you
50:29
Speaker 1: for a whole nother hour. But I have some rapid
50:31
Speaker 1: fire questions for you.
50:32
Speaker 3: Okay, let's go.
50:35
Speaker 1: What is a hill you're willing to die on?
50:38
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm dying on the hill that women will no
50:40
Speaker 2: longer experience medical gaslighting?
50:43
Speaker 3: Nope?
50:44
Speaker 1: What is a question you'd like to be asked? Something
50:47
Speaker 1: that you like to talk about but nobody ever brings up.
50:50
Speaker 3: No one ever asked me about my farm animals?
50:52
Speaker 2: But I have two pigs, six chickens, and two dogs
50:56
Speaker 2: that live at my house and I like to call
50:58
Speaker 2: it pink Acres. And I understand why nobody wants to
51:01
Speaker 2: talk about my pigs, but I would talk about them mendlessly.
51:04
Speaker 1: That is so cute. Are you a vegetarian by any chance?
51:08
Speaker 2: Oh?
51:08
Speaker 3: God, don't tell them.
51:10
Speaker 1: Don't Okay, I won't, and we could pretend I didn't
51:13
Speaker 1: ask that question. What is the best piece of advice
51:18
Speaker 1: someone's given you that you've actually applied to your own
51:21
Speaker 1: life and had success with.
51:24
Speaker 2: You will love it more if you earn it.
51:26
Speaker 1: Cindy, you gave me chills when you said it. What
51:30
Speaker 1: is a book that changed your life, something you think
51:33
Speaker 1: everybody should read.
51:35
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm such a fan of Pat Lencioni
51:39
Speaker 2: and he wrote a book called The Five Temptations of
51:41
Speaker 2: a CEO. I'm kicking at old school right now. Okay,
51:45
Speaker 2: that hasn't hurt his feelings. But he actually talked about hiring,
51:50
Speaker 2: which I think is so crucial.
51:51
Speaker 3: Right.
51:51
Speaker 2: Success is not a solo sport, so who you find
51:54
Speaker 2: to surround you is so crucial to your journey. And
51:57
Speaker 2: he said there are three characteristics they need to be hungry, humble,
52:01
Speaker 2: and smart. And I think that has really stayed with
52:05
Speaker 2: me as I built organizations.
52:07
Speaker 3: So love the book.
52:09
Speaker 2: Such a great read, Five Temptations of the CEO.
52:12
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. What's something every woman should
52:15
Speaker 1: try once?
52:17
Speaker 2: Every woman should have sex every day for thirty days
52:20
Speaker 2: and see how much it improves her the quality of
52:24
Speaker 2: her mental, physical health and connection.
52:28
Speaker 1: Wait, this is so fun. I have to tell you.
52:29
Speaker 1: Nobody's given me that answer, yet.
52:33
Speaker 3: There you go. That is amazing. Let's try.
52:38
Speaker 1: My last question is from my card game.
52:41
Speaker 3: I love it.
52:42
Speaker 1: Okay, because we're virtual, you just have to tell me
52:45
Speaker 1: when you feel like I should stop. Okay, now, if
52:49
Speaker 1: you could relive one night from the past without changing anything.
52:53
Speaker 1: What night would it be.
52:55
Speaker 2: Oh, I would relive the night before we got the
53:01
Speaker 2: FDA news because we threw a victory party and we
53:07
Speaker 2: didn't know whether or not we were getting approved. And
53:10
Speaker 2: I will tell you, the chairman of my board thought
53:12
Speaker 2: I had absolutely lost my mind because I threw a
53:15
Speaker 2: victory party for the team, and I said, look, whatever
53:18
Speaker 2: happens tomorrow, we have done everything we could do inside
53:23
Speaker 2: of our own power, and so we really do enter
53:25
Speaker 2: the arena as champions.
53:28
Speaker 1: Wow. Was your family there? Yes, Oh, you're getting emotional.
53:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
53:33
Speaker 2: It's such such a good every like and so many
53:36
Speaker 2: people I love like took the time to like fly,
53:40
Speaker 2: you know, they like people who'd been part of my
53:42
Speaker 2: teams in the past that weren't even part of my
53:44
Speaker 2: team that day, like flew in to be with me
53:47
Speaker 2: in the room that day.
53:48
Speaker 3: Like that was incredible. I'm still emotion about it.
53:51
Speaker 1: Well, you're such an inspiring leader like you. You lead
53:54
Speaker 1: with honesty and compassion. I get why former employees would
53:57
Speaker 1: fly in seaking with my executive coach this morning about
54:02
Speaker 1: beliefs versus expectations. Yeah, and I think that I have
54:08
Speaker 1: been trying to believe things, and maybe some manifestations haven't
54:12
Speaker 1: come because it's actually better to expect. I think she said,
54:17
Speaker 1: things happen when you expect, and it's like you expected
54:20
Speaker 1: a victory.
54:21
Speaker 2: Yeah I did. Yeah, I love that.
54:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're one of the most remarkable people I've ever
54:29
Speaker 1: spoken to.
54:30
Speaker 3: Oh, Danielle, thank you well.
54:32
Speaker 2: I've been wanting to do this with you for so long.
54:34
Speaker 2: I'm so glad we did it.
54:36
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. Okay, you know what time it is.
54:44
Speaker 1: Today's a good day. To have a good day. I'll
54:46
Speaker 1: see you next week.