Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / Why Most Lawyers Overlook the Power of Specificity and Lose Clients with Josh West
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Велком ту Unfuck Your Legal Marketing the show. Where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and professional BS detector for attorneys and business owners who are tired of doing what everyone else does. Around here, we skip the fluff. We have real conversations, real insights, and maybe a few F bombs along the way. So let's get into it. In legal marketing, being every Everything to everyone is not good. And today I'm joined by Josh West. Josh has built and successfully exited two businesses of his own, and he spent years helping companies grow with intention instead of guesswork. He's worked with a wide range of industries from law firms and professional services to healthcare and construction, technology and marketing. As an executive coach and EOS implementer, he helps partners and leadership teams gain clarity, improve accountability, and build more profitable businesses. So today, we're talking about one of my favorite topics, which is marketing strategy and more specifically, how attorneys can define their ideal client, communicate what makes their firm different, and Stop trying to be everything to everyone. So, Josh, welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. Great to be here with you, Gary. I'm so glad this is going to be fun. So let's get straight into it. Like, you've helped build and sell two businesses before becoming an EOS implementer. And looking back, what are some of the biggest marketing lessons that you learned that still apply to you today? When I think about that question. I think about the things that are timeless. And certainly I'm standing on the shoulders of people. So if you're out there ⁓ running an organization, you need to know about David Ogilvy and Robert Cialdini's influence, Seth Godin, one of my favorites. Go watch Simon Sinek Start with Why YouTube video. Donald Miller's Building a Story Brand. There's many giants out there that have shared lots, but If I could condense even a lot of those lessons, it's it was always about the fundamentals. And marketing is one of those things that really lends itself to the new hottest thing. It also invites all of the creativity into it. And you need all of that, but all of that still has to be put through the filters of the fundamentals. So for example, it's benefits over features, is one that always came back to it. No matter what you're selling, like if you were selling grills, right? Okay, it's got three legs, it's got four legs, it's got a stainless steel grill, like it's got ventilation. Who cares? Nobody cares about that. What you're buying is being the envy of your neighborhood. That's the benefit of buying that grill. We'll get to the features after that. So no matter what you're doing out there, like that was that was always one of the fundamentals. Specificity matters. And so in your intro, you talked about being everything to everyone and The more specific we can be and the more specifically we can talk to very targeted niche audiences, the better. And also consistency. If you're thinking, ⁓ well, I'm just gonna fire up some marketing and today and I'll have customers tomorrow, that's not really going to cut it. And that consistent messaging over and over again. I mean, who doesn't know who McDonald's is? And do they still buy billboards? Right? So They're consistent. And so I you know, I I encourage people to go out there and learn from some of the best. Yeah. Like yourself. And it's funny. We are just over three minutes into this recording, and those are fucking three enormous nuggets right there. Benefits over features. Most people talk about their features. I do this. I do this. I go to court for my clients. I look at their documents. I negotiate. ⁓ Da-da-da-da-da. People don't make decisions off of that. They make decisions off of the benefits that they receive. People don't give a shit about your features. They care about the benefits. Now, the features will help clarify those benefits. Or it's like you don't go, wow, you're going to make so much more money. Okay. all right, what are you going to do in order to make that more much more money? ⁓ so you do have to have a feature for that. But most people. Do what I found is they talk about feature, feature, feature, future. I love that you brought that up. And being more specific is such an important element that we're gonna get into even more. And consistency. This is where a lot of people fall down on is consistency, is they're like, they're here today, gone tomorrow, and you're like, what happened? ⁓ I got busy. Okay, that's stress. That's fucking stress, you know. So let's get into the specifics. When you say be specific, give me some stories or examples of how being specific is so important for a law firm or for an attorney. So if you're not specific and everything is broad and you're everything to everyone, this is likely to backfire on you because you're giving your competition a bit of an angle on you and an advantage. ⁓ an example I have is out here. There is a specific law firm. I see their commercials on television and they specifically help motorcycle riders who've been in an accident, not any accident. So ⁓ chances are if I'm a motorcycle rider and I'm seeing that I haven't been in an accident yesterday or today, but now I am aware of you. And if I ever and let's hope not, but in the unfortunate case that I find myself in an accident. I'm not likely to pick up the phone and call the attorney that just says, I just hope anybody who's been in an accident, I'm going to remember them. And that's very specific to me. Also, in that commercial, they have a client testimonial in it. And that person doesn't look like you, all dressed up, suit, tie. No, they look like they just got off of their bike. Right. So they're being very specific. Yeah. Right to their audience. So If you're everything to everyone and you allow your competition to niche down into these different areas, people are looking for something that they're looking for themselves in it and how they identify. So the more that you identify with them, the more likely you are to engage and get that business. And so I I'll answer in the sense of if you're not being specific, then you're giving everyone else an advantage. Amen. Amen. And one of like You talk about going beyond demographics and really understanding the psychographics of your ideal client. Can you explain what that means and why it's so important? Yeah. When I'm working with clients and specifically when we're defining the target market, the ideal customer profile, we talk about the demographic, the geographic, and the psychographic profiles of that target. So the demographic is simply What are these people? Are they in the C suite? Do ⁓ you know, are they property managers, whatever it may be? And in the case of the injured, it's like, have I been injured in an accident? Or am I am I filing for divorce or has someone filed for divorce against me? Do I need to sue someone? Is someone suing me? Right. All of those things. And so I find that my clients, it's very easy for them to identify what or who someone is demographically. Geo, usually very easy, takes care of itself. Yeah. But the psychographic is where the real gold is because now we're talking about what someone believes, what they think, what they value. And to the extent that you can understand those things, then you're speaking to that. And if I have a value that is aligned with yours, I need to talk to you about that in terms of I understand you. So sort of like Kind of analogous to what we just talked about in terms of the difference between features and benefits here. Like, yeah, there's the who someone is, but what do they think? What do they feel? What do they value? ⁓ God, it's so good because it makes everything so much easier, right? When they have that. One, they're going to be a whole lot more memorable, but the content that they put out is going to be speaking to that psychographic, right? Or to their target market. And also where they show up, you know, will also be extremely important for them. So they're not wasting so much time and energy and money on shit that's just not gonna work, like at all. Yeah. So I know that you do something that's very specific is you teach the concept of the three uniques. And this is really to make them stand out. So Can you explain what they are and how how can attorneys identify the things that actually matter to the prospective clients? Yeah. So the three uniques that I work with clients on, that's just a different word for market differentiators. So everyone's generally familiar with that concept and what truly makes you different and unique in the marketplace. And here again, The specificity in that matters. You know, if if we sound like everyone else, then usually what happens is if I'm a prospect and I'm looking across multiple different options and none of them differentiates themselves, then what do I shop on? Price. Right? Yeah. It's all the same. Everybody hates that shit, right? They're like, right. Right. So I would say First, understand and clarify your values. What are you about for your firm, your practice? Research your competition. Okay. So, how are they presenting themselves? What are they saying? Is it broad? Is it specific? How do you position against them? So earlier I talked about if you're broad, then you're giving everyone else an advantage on how they can angle in on you and be more specific. So for you. Like search in the way and go and f and seek out your competition the way a prospect would, and really be honest with yourself about how you're positioned against them. And if you're just kind of vanilla or it's very hard for me to understand what makes you unique, I'm likely not picking up the phone and calling you. Also, here's an idea. Pick up the phone and call your best clients and ask them, right? It's not this is not rocket surgery here, Gary. So if I know. That my client got a great outcome. I had a great case and an engagement with them. There was value all around. We had a great experience. Okay, now let's try to replicate that more. Call them up and ask them. So, you know, I would say that there's three aspects to that in terms of yourself and internally. What do you value? And what do you think the things that make you truly unique? How does that look out in the marketplace and how it's positioned against people? And most importantly, what's important to your prospect? And particularly the ones that you'd like to have more of. So what if an attorney says, Okay, that's all great. I can really do the what what is valuable for me, like what do I value? I can look at my competitors, but calling up my clients or past clients, I don't think that they're gonna tell me like the truth, or I just don't feel comfortable about calling them and and taking up their time. What would you say to those people that are like, I feel awkward in doing that last, that third one? Sounds more like a you problem, frankly. Right? That's your projections and your head track in there, right? Like, I don't want to take your time. They just had a great experience with you. Also, the easiest way to get what we want is to simply ask for it. So what I hear in that question is a reticence of. I don't know. We've already projected that someone's going to say no or I feel awkward. Well, that's how you feel. Yeah. So I know that that's a pretty direct answer, but that's sort of my style. That's the what I mean. And that's the thing that I I this is the thing I love about you, Josh, is the fact that you don't pull punches. This is how you are all the frickin' time. Every single time that you and I have have ever had like lunch. Coffee, been at a networking event, whatever it is, from day one. I'll never forget the first day that I met you. I was like, Who is this guy? He is very bold, he's very he is very clear, he's very confident. And I'm like, like I gotta get to know this guy, you know? And you hadn't even joined that pro that it was Provisors. You hadn't even joined Provisors at the time. You were still a prospect. And I was like, This guy, like, I like this guy, like, holy shit. Because You get what you see, you get what you experience in that moment. Like I it's never been a what Josh am I gonna get today? And I think that goes to being specific, right? You are and what you value, you value straight to the point. Here we go, let's not pull punches because we want the result more than just tell me what I want to hear. And I think that that speaks to your coaching. Of how you do this and how you utilize the framework of EOS, which is extremely powerful, to what? To get fucking results for your clients. Like, you're like, do I have to baby you? And if I do, I don't think that we're a good fit. I.e., that's what you value, right? Yes. And I think that a lot of attorneys can do the same thing, that they can be themselves, they can be that vulnerable themselves. And It's gonna get rid of a lot of really bad clients or clients that you're like tiptoeing around and you won't be as good with them. And I think that that's part of your brilliance within this is just fucking great. So let's continue on to this differentiator. Let's dive a little deeper. Once you've identified those differentiators, how do you communicate them in a way that Really resonates instead of sounding like everyone else, you know, that it's like, I still feel like I'm fucking sounding like everybody else's. The key word in that sentence is resonate. And what that means is say it how your client would say it, not how you say it. For God's sake, don't use the $10 words. You need what's inside of their head and their language and the way that they would say it. So once you understand that differentiator, then it's not a matter of saying it so much in a polished way or, you know, at how you think it should be said, if you will, but rather ⁓ I I like to put people in hypothetical situations. So, you know, how would your client at the backyard barbecue on cocktail number two say it? ⁓ Right. How do they talk about But what if what if they're ⁓ recovering alcoholics? What do you say? I'm kidding. I'm totally kidding. Because I know you'll have a really disgusting answer. Okay. Well, put yourself in a different hypothetical, but nonetheless, say it how your client says it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that goes back to the first three points that you made, which is the benefits. Your your clients are going to talk about how you help them in certain ways. How did they benefit from your services? So if an attorney is like an estate planning attorney and their clients are like, You helped me get clear with all of my decisions when I pass away, when I'm no longer breathing. You helped me build a legacy. You helped me make sure that my family wasn't going to get taxed so that my money could go to them. You made sure that the government wasn't going to decide. That's all the stuff instead of. We we draft, you know, your trust, your wills, you know, we'll we'll ask you a bunch of questions. We'll make sure that these things are identified, your beneficiaries, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They don't care about that. They care about, you know, how this would be. So if your clients are, if you if it resonates with your clients, it's going to resonate with the people that you're trying to bring in. And that's so simplistic, too, which is like, yeah. And that goes back to the other one that you were saying is call your freaking clients. What are they saying? You know, what are they saying that differentiates you from the other people? What makes you unique? ⁓ and I think that that's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. So another concept that you emphasize is having a proven Process. Why does showing clients what to expect make a difference? Now this applies to every industry and every client I work with. I myself have a proven process. And specifically when we talk about that, that is a simplified one-page illustration. Can you show someone on a piece of paper or in a graphic online the timeline and the journey of what to expect and what it's like to work with you? And speaking specifically to your audience, Gary, in terms of lawyers. A large majority of the time when someone picks up the phone and calls you, they're having a bad day, period. Right? They're fragile. There's something else going on. Like I said, they've been in an accident. Their spouse has filed for divorce or they want to file for divorce. Someone is suing them or they need to sue someone else. None of this is positive. There's very few instances in which a positive thing is happening and you're picking up the phone and calling a lawyer. Amen. So having said that, when someone is in that state, there's To make it, you know, two extremes here in the absence of a proven process. Well, now I don't know what to expect. I don't know what the timeline and journey is like. And I'm only being able to see the next step in front of me, like I'm walking s down some dark hallway. I don't know if something's about to jump out and get me next. I'm scared and I'm already dealing with this problem. In contrast, I'm a lawyer. You come to me, Gary, you're having a bad day. And I say, Gary, I'm sorry this has happened to you. However, I've worked many people like you, and I put that diagram in front of you and I say, Gary, you are here. And here are the big steps that we're about to take. I'm about to go get all of the facts in your case and gather up a bunch of information. In the meantime, I need you to go do these things and get me these pieces of information. After such an amount of time, I'm going to be able to come back with you and give you my opinion about what happens next and what next steps we need to take and reasonably what I think is about to happen. And then eventually we're going to get to this place. And let's say it's personal injury. Based on what's happened here, Gary, I think that we're going to be able to get a settlement out of court. Again, here is the timeline, and here's what we can expect for that to happen. If it needs to go to trial, here's what's going to happen there. And that happens right up front at the beginning. The first time I talk to you, and I'm setting pretty clear timeline, journey, and expectations and putting you at ease. And you understand what to expect and what that process is going to be like at a time in which your fraza. In my practice, I'm in the room with someone because I've got a frustrated business owner. They've hit some ceilings, growth has stalled out, they're frustrated with some things. Maybe the business is is kind of running them and not the other way around. And I'm able to say, here's the timeline and journey that I'm going take with you. And here's what's going to result from that. And being able to clearly articulate that and explain to them. ⁓ really helps them understand and buy into that process. Yeah. And it definitely takes away that anxiety. It also, I feel, increases your competence because they go, okay, Josh knows what Josh knows what the hell he's doing. You know, he's not just a pretty face. He knows exactly what he's doing, but it is just it it spells it out, right? And they go, Okay, I got it. And and I think Setting expectations is one of the most vital things that you can always do with a prospective client, not only to increase your competence that okay, Josh knows it is shit, but also me, okay, I can see that journey, right? Like you were saying, there it's not just the next step and it's dark and it's ugly. They can see that hope. They can see the light at the end of the tum tunnel of what do I what are we going to do when we're working together? ⁓ because again, that takes away a lot of anxiety. So, speaking of anxiety, let's talk about specific efforts that attorneys should be focusing on because marketing can feel, and this is the key word, is feel overwhelming with you got LinkedIn, you got Google, you got referrals, you got podcasts, SEOs, social media, you got all these different things. How should attorneys decide where to focus their efforts without feeling just freaking overwhelmed? So there's there's also a bit of reverse engineering here. So one of the answers to that question is, well, where is your target and how do they find you? Do you understand very clearly when the need presents itself, how they're going to find you? No, that's different than certainly a brand awareness campaign. So, you know, there's there's some nuance here. But let's make sure that we understand where where they are. So again, we talked about, you know, the the shiny object. So if another platform comes out tomorrow, someone's gonna swing by the head of marketing's door and be like, Well, what's our Snapchat strategy? What are we doing on TikTok? Stop. Are our clients there? Are they in that state of mind on that platform? Like, who says we have to have a strategy for that specific platform? Yeah. Okay. Also. In a way of sort of quelling that anxiety, we don't have to be in all of these different things at once. And and frankly, it's probably not helpful because then you are scattered across all of these things. Commensurately, your budget is running thin across all of these different channels. And then you're it's either on you or someone else on your team to try to keep up with what's happening there. I would focus on just a few channels, and I mean one to three. Let's focus there, run some experiments, understand what's happening, and also give it some time. You've got to be patient here because most of the time, not everybody's always in a buying window. Once we get to some statistically significant data over time, or we even even before it's significant, if we start to see some uptick and it's showing some promise and a great return, great. Let's focus there. Let's start to iterate, understand more, start to optimize what's happening in that channel. And then once we have it optimized, then seek to maximize it. You know, so if we're spending this many marketing dollars figuring something out, great. Then once we get something figured out, we can spend this many marketing dollars really pouring gas on that fire. If we're not getting the return, great. You don't need to be there. No one says you do. So, you know, take it one thing at a time and ⁓ really understand. Just a few channels of where it's really working for you, I would say, as a way of just kind of calming that down. Don't get caught up in what everyone else is doing. Stay focused on your work. Yeah. And that goes back to your consistency is you gotta give it time. You're gonna get better, especially if you're running like A B tests. You're gonna get better and better and better and better at it. And as you get better, you'll start to see results. And if you don't, okay, you can bail out, but give it time. Because a lot of people are like, ⁓ I posted this and I didn't get any clients. You're like, what the fuck? Like, it's not this overnight. And, you know, to the extent that, you know, we still look at things through a funnel at the top. And when we're talking about awareness, that's where money is leaving your organization. And as we get closer to that conversion, that's where money's coming back in. So if I've got to pick somewhere in that funnel to attack. I'm attacking the bottom of it first and I'm trying to pull the lever on that conversion rate right before the sale rather than worrying so much about the awareness out there in the world. So also if we've got tight budgets, I would focus there in terms of where we're at in the funnel and also keep the channels and the campaigns to a minimum. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. No. I totally agree. And it and it that helps them with their confidence. It also helps them with the results and also keeps their expenses down instead of I'm gonna do everything and just be overwhelmed and be marginal if at that at all of these different things. So now if an attorney listening today only had one hour this week to improve their marketing, what would you tell them to do first? Okay, Gary, I'm gonna cheat a little bit, but I'm a coach. So if you tell me that an attorney's got an hour, my immediate thought is how do I turn that hour into more time? And here's what I would tell them: sit down with a pad of paper and think about your best five to 10 clients. List them out. And we're going to come back to something I'd said earlier about talking to your clients. And now, once you've got them identified, then there are services out there that you can find that will go and Interview your clients on camera in in pursuit of testimonial videos. However, there's a lot more information you can get from there. So now go and find that person, retain them. They'll likely have some questions that they normally use, and you'll have the opportunity to add and tweak and things of that nature. And then square it with your clients, but then send them off and get those things set up. That's likely going to take you an hour. Now go back to work. Two weeks later, watch the video. Because they're going to be interviewing a client without you present. And now you're going to get a lot of information from this, particularly that's on camera, because you're going to see what they get excited about. You're going to be able to read their body language. You're going to see what they emphasize. And because these are your best clients, just going through that exercise and seeing them. I think you're probably going to be able to tighten up the demographics that we talked about and be more specific about who your really great clients are because here again, we're trying to replicate these people. We want more of them. Also, you're going to understand them greater on that psychographic level. What do they really value? And are there some surprises, some insights that come from that that you may not even be aware of that they found valuable? Also, now what you've got. Is you've got some great collateral. We've got testimonial videos now that we can use. So to the extent that you are in some channels, whether it's just simply on your website and LinkedIn, now we've got great client video testimonials. We can extract those quotes out of there for text somewhere else on the website, et cetera. And so now we've got a lot better understanding of what's going on. And I know I'm not speaking from theory here. I did this, Gary. I hired someone to go out and interview my clients, and watching the tape back was extremely enlightening. And I'll just share with your listeners one thing that came back unanimously that I had no idea about was everyone talked about how accessible I was between sessions and how generous I was with my time. And I realized that whereas Yes, for me and internally, that's just how I run my practice. And I think about it in terms of I'm your coach 247-365. However, I really make that overt to my clients. And we meet in full day sessions quarterly. And that's when I bill clients. But when you call me on the phone and shits at the fan and we need to talk something out for an hour, I don't send you a bill for that time. Again. I I just think about it in terms of when we're in session. Yeah, there's there's a bill there and there's transaction, but I'm your coach all of the time. And what that changed for me is now I don't talk about what that session rate is, but rather I position it as I'm your coach all the time. And on an annualized basis, here's what it's going to cost for me to be your coach. The details of how that gets worked out and when I send you a bill and when you don't. Are actually inconsequential. And now my positioning is different. And I'm speaking overtly and clearly to something that everyone found important that I was doing but didn't even know about and didn't make it clear during the sales process. Yeah. It's brilliant. I mean, brilliant. Okay. Last question. What's one marketing belief you think attorneys should let go of if they want to unfuck their legal marketing? And Grow a stronger practice. Marketing is about them, not you. So that's a broad statement. I mentioned Donald Miller's building a story brand at the top of the podcast, and I'll come back to it. And one of the things he talks about, and one of the mistakes a lot of people make, is they position themselves as the hero of the story when they're marketing. And the reality is. That your client is the hero in the story, and they have a goal and a destination that they're trying to get to, but there's all these challenges and obstacles and villains in the way, if you will. And like in all good stories, our hero usually needs a guide. And you're the guide. And speaking specifically to your audience, you're not the hero there to save the day for your client. Your client's the hero in that story, and you're there as the guide to lead them through this very complicated legal process that they're not necessarily educated or an expert about. But here again, it's just it's a slight tweak in the mindset that really makes all of the difference. So if you've thought about yourself as a hero and Some of the things are coming through in your marketing, kind of through that lens, and just in in the slight details and how you talk about those things, I would I would change that in a way. You're the guide there for. Brilliant. Brilliant, Josh. This has been amazing. Like from the fundamentals of benefits over features, be specific, be consistent. That's the theme throughout this whole podcast. So many great nuggets. I Cannot tell you how much I appreciate you and your wisdom that you have. And ⁓ it just you're always you and I fucking love that, you know. And I was like, yeah, you are just you, but that's where your brilliance comes out. If anybody wants to connect with Josh, use his services because you heard how brilliant he is, and it's just not in this element, it's in other parts of your practice as well. We're gonna have all of his contact information in the notes ⁓ below. So please connect with him for nothing more than bucking entertainment because he will entertain the shit out of you, yo. And he also has a very successful podcast that he does, and it is also very brilliant too. But Josh, you're freaking amazing. ⁓ thank you so much ⁓ for your time. and ⁓ and I really hope that we can get you back on ⁓ the show again because you're just a wealth of information and I really do appreciate you. Gary, I thank you so much for having me on. ⁓ it's been great to join. Also, I I love being out in the world with you and also your straightforward nature. I think that, you know, we we bond over that. And, you know, I think that you and I approach our work and our practices and our clients in a in a similar fashion, which is from a very Direct, straightforward, help first mentality. And I truly appreciate that about you. And so yeah, thank you again for letting me join. You are very welcome. And thank you. So look for our next podcast, which is going to be coming out next week. And Josh, again, thank you very much. That's it for today's episode of Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. If you got a spark of inspiration, learn something new, or at least got a good laugh, make sure to follow, rate, and Share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me and remember, the best marketing is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.