Latest / The Bolt Report / The Bolt Report | 20 May

Transcript

The Bolt Report | 20 May · The Bolt Report

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Is the Gold Report Tonight the dramatic split in the coalition.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Today I'll talk to the man who caused the trouble
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: and to John Howard, who led the Liberals the last
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: time this happened and learned how disastrous this can be.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Also tonight, interest rates cut again and Donald Trump fails
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: yet again to get Vladimir Putin to agree to peace.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: But why won't he now drop the hammer on him?
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: And Islam on trial? Muslm hate preacher goes to court
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: for what he says is every Muslim's right to just
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: quote their religious texts. Will the court now dare to
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: say that really is against the law. It's a fascinating case.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: But first, if you thought it couldn't get any worse
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: for new Liberal leader Susan Lee, today it did. Her
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: party was absolutely smashed the election. She was elected leader
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: just eight days ago, her mother died only four days ago.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: And then today the Nationals told that they were quitting
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: the coalition their partnership with the Liberals for the first
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: time in nearly forty years.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Our party room has got to a position where we
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: will not be re entering a coalition agreement with the
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Liberal Party after this election. What we have got to
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: a position is that the National Party will sit alone
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: on a principal basis.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Now that was the last thing Lee needed.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: I am disappointed. I do want the coalition to come together.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Then the Nationals have put key demands to Lee and
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Warder to back them or wear out.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Those positions that we couldn't get comfort around a nuclear
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: being part of an energy grid into the future. About
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: the reasons stray Future Fund a twenty billion dollar fund
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: paying a one billion dollar dividend year above and beyond
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: to change the lives of regional Ausrians. It's around diversityre
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: powers for supermarkets.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: And our Lee, still grieving for a mother, is being
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: blamed by the Nationals for not immediately saying yes to
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: those things nuclear power, twenty billion dollar fund plus better
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: telecommunications for rural areas and the power to break up
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: supermarket chains.
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: A reasonable request was put to a trusted partner and
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: it was refused. Policies that we had fought for that
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: only a few weeks ago. We fought an election on
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: policies that in the main rule in Regional Australia backed.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: She was put in a position to us that those
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: things no longer stood, but Lee couldn't agree to those
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: demands on her own, and that fast without breaking the
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: promise she'd made on day one to listen and consult
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: every one of her members before the Liberals made any
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: calls on policy.
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: The Nationals came with specific policies that they were determined
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: to adhere to at this point in time. They're entitled
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: to do that, and I respect their own party room processes.
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: I simply asked that they respect ours, which are that
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: we aren't going to land on those four policies or
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: any for that matter, right here, right now, in the
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: form that they were presented to us. We have to
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: work through them carefully and take the time to get
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: them right now.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: There was one other demand Little Proud didn't mention today
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: that Lee correctly said no to, that the National's shadow
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: cabinet minister's in a coalition be granted the right to
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: free vote to oppose the Liberal colleagues, and some issues
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: including zero emissions that couldn't fly.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: You come out as a united front and you present
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: a united agenda to the Australian people, and it's important
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: that when we do that, people know that we're acting
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: as a team in their interests.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Now all that said, and bad as it is, and
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: bad as you're told it is, I still wouldn't panic
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: just yet. If I were a Liberal. The Nationals could
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: actually be saving the Liberals because they do have a point.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: After all, the Liberals also campaigned during the election for
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: nuclear power, as they must have. Are they really now saying,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: oh no, maybe we didn't mean it. Surely they can't
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: be that ridiculous now The Liberals really against better services
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: for the country. In fact, Lee reportedly told the Little
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Proud give me time, and I reckon, my party will
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: agree to all those demands. But that would have meant
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: that the Nationals agreed to form a coalition in the meantime,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: so Lee could appoint a shadow ministry that still included
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: them with nothing resolved. Still, it shows that this array
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: of the Liberals, that it has all come to this.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: It shows the lack of confidence some Liberals now have
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: in some of their policies that at the start of
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: this year, remember had them ahead in the polls. But
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: if it isn't patched up soon, of course, it's going
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: to be extremely damaging for the Liberals. We saw that
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the last thund they split in nineteen eighty seven, when
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Queensland Premier Joe Byelki Peterson, a National, ran his disastrous
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Joe for PM campaign, helping Bob Hawk's Labor government actually
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: get re elected with a record majority. Now the Liberals
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: will now look even more puny and insignificant Imparliament right
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: there on their own in the House of represented just
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: twenty eight of them, confronting ninety three Cockerhoop Labor MPs
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: backed by sixtiels In a Greens MP for more than that.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Unless the Liberals and Nationals younite again quite soon before
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: the next election, you imagine the confusion voters will rightly ask,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: if they vote Liberal, will they actually then get some
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Nationals policies instead after the election, because the Liberals absolutely
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: certainly will not win government without asking the Nationals to
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: join them. At what price, no wonder labels bloating today.
• 6:08
  Speaker 6: The coalition now is nothing more than a smoking ruin.
• 6:12
  Speaker 6: They are hopelessly divided on personalities and on policy.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: It shows that.
• 6:22
  Speaker 6: The new leadership has failed its first test. It shows
• 6:26
  Speaker 6: that they've learned absolutely nothing from the last few weeks,
• 6:30
  Speaker 6: or indeed the last few years.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: This is a nuclear meltdown. Now the Nationals today's stress.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: They're open to rejoining a coalition as soon as the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Liberals get their act into gear, and Leader David Little
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Proud even claiming this divorce would help the Liberals do
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: just that.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: We remain committed to having the door open, respecting the
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: position that Susan's been put in that she is a
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: leader that needs to rebuild the Liberal Party. They are
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: going on a journey of rediscovery and this will provide
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: them the opportunity to do that without the spectrum of
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: the National Party imposing their will.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Well, that's actually not quite right. The fact is the
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Liberals now know the Nationals do have them over a
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: barrel because the Nationals have just drawn big red lines.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: The Liberals must stick with nuclear power or the Nationals
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: would never join them again. And in this the Nationals
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: have probably done the Liberals a favor. The wobblers on
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: the liberal left have now got a good, hard reality check.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Nuclear is something they cannot run from. They cannot go
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: labor light on enj for one. There will be no
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: coalition if they do. The Nationals aren't asking for the world,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: are there?
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: You?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Note they didn't also demand the Liberals scrap the net
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: zero target. Did they many Nationals want that destructive and
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: impossible target dumped, but they know many Liberals could not agree.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: They reckon they'll be destroyed the next selection the Nationals
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: enforce it. They've left that door open for the Liberals.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: That's also why they said that keep cooperating closely with
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: the Liberals in Parliament. So I am not as pessimistic
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: about the National's big move today as many because it
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: does make some sense. An ultimatum now before the Liberals
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: make a mistake and make this divorce permanent by say,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: dumping their commitment to nuclear power, or do the right thing,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: fix it soon. But it can only be fixed if
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: the Liberals stop wabbling and stay true. Now, one person
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: more than anyone else, has forced this confrontation on the Liberals,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: National Senator Matt Canavan, the former resources miss there. Last week,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Canavan ran for the Nationals leadership against leader David Little Prowd,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: never expected to win, just wanting Little Proud to know
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: that he would be in huge trouble if the Nationals
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: didn't back off the net zero target and if it
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: didn't stick with nuclear energy. Little Brown show got that message,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: to judge from today's coalition split and joining me is
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Matt Canavan. Now, Canavan, thank you so much for joining me.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: You wanted to force not just the Nationals but the
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Liberals to stick with nuclear power. Did you actually want
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: that to lead to this split and the coalition today?
• 9:40
  Speaker 7: No, Andrew, I didn't want the Coalition to not continue
• 9:46
  Speaker 7: in its current form. But what I do want more
• 9:50
  Speaker 7: than anything is for us to take up the fight
• 9:52
  Speaker 7: on behalf of Australia. As I said when I ran
• 9:55
  Speaker 7: for the Nationals leadership last week, we are losing our industry,
• 9:58
  Speaker 7: we are losing our jobs, were losing wealth as a country.
• 10:01
  Speaker 7: We're a country in decline and we've got to fight back.
• 10:04
  Speaker 7: And look, I would prefer to be doing that with
• 10:07
  Speaker 7: as many parliamentarians as possible, including those in the Liberal Party.
• 10:14
  Speaker 7: But I do fully support Dave a little proud today.
• 10:18
  Speaker 7: I think he's showing conviction and courage to forcefully say that. Look,
• 10:24
  Speaker 7: we believe in the things that we fought for over
• 10:27
  Speaker 7: the last few years. We believe in using all our
• 10:29
  Speaker 7: energy resources. We believe in protecting small businesses and farmers.
• 10:32
  Speaker 7: We believe in the development of our nation, the further
• 10:34
  Speaker 7: development of this great pioneering nation, and so we will
• 10:37
  Speaker 7: continue to take up that fight in the Parliament, obviously
• 10:40
  Speaker 7: under different arrangements. Doing so means that David and some
• 10:44
  Speaker 7: of my other colleagues take a pay cut. They've done
• 10:47
  Speaker 7: this at personal cost, but obviously our country is much
• 10:49
  Speaker 7: more important. I think what we need to do in
• 10:53
  Speaker 7: the let up to the next election is focus on
• 10:55
  Speaker 7: the saving Australia, not saving our party. The thing that
• 10:59
  Speaker 7: is frustrated me so much in the last few years
• 11:02
  Speaker 7: in Australian politics is there is far too much emphasis
• 11:05
  Speaker 7: on exactly what little tweaks or changes in policy we
• 11:08
  Speaker 7: need to make to win a seat based on focus
• 11:11
  Speaker 7: groups and polling. Maybe, just maybe we should actually sit
• 11:15
  Speaker 7: down and think what we and decide what we think
• 11:17
  Speaker 7: is best for our country first, and then go and
• 11:19
  Speaker 7: fight like hell for that.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I'm just wondering about the rush, Matt. This split comes
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: just eight days after Susan Lee became leader, promising consultation,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: just four days after she lost her mother, and after
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: she reportedly said give me time, I think we will
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: agree on these four demands. Why pull the pin this fast?
• 11:45
  Speaker 7: Look, I wasn't involved in the discussions Andrew, but my
• 11:47
  Speaker 7: understanding is that this timeline was decided by Susan Lae,
• 11:50
  Speaker 7: by the Liberal Party. Susan understandably wants to announce a
• 11:53
  Speaker 7: shadow ministry, and so before announcing a shadow ministry, we
• 11:58
  Speaker 7: have to have a coistion agreement in play if members
• 12:01
  Speaker 7: of the Nationals Party to be in that shadow ministry.
• 12:04
  Speaker 7: And so look, at least from the discussions I've had
• 12:06
  Speaker 7: with my colleagues and with David, there was no rush
• 12:09
  Speaker 7: from the Nationals Party. But it is also understandable. I
• 12:14
  Speaker 7: can understand the position of Susan and the Liberal Party
• 12:16
  Speaker 7: that they want to get their arrangements in place in
• 12:18
  Speaker 7: the Parliament and in the shadow ministerial arrangements, and so
• 12:22
  Speaker 7: that's what necessitated the decision today.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Does it say anything about the leadership of the Liberals
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: the party itself that it wasn't in a position to
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: straight away agree to those four central demands.
• 12:39
  Speaker 7: Look, it's hard for me to comment, and I don't
• 12:41
  Speaker 7: really want to comment on matters for the Liberal Party.
• 12:44
  Speaker 7: I wish them all the best. As David said, today's
• 12:47
  Speaker 7: no animosity here, not personal. As I've always said, this
• 12:52
  Speaker 7: is a business relationship, not a marriage. Having fallen out
• 12:56
  Speaker 7: of love with a Liberal Party or anything like that.
• 13:00
  Speaker 7: We haven't been able to agree on what's best for
• 13:02
  Speaker 7: our country right now. We also need to make our
• 13:04
  Speaker 7: own decisions now about issues like NTCERA missions. Obviously I've
• 13:08
  Speaker 7: campaigned against that for years and both parties have now
• 13:11
  Speaker 7: committed to review that. This is perhaps also a positive
• 13:15
  Speaker 7: there that we can in the Nationals Party have that
• 13:18
  Speaker 7: debate squarely and laser like focused on what is best
• 13:23
  Speaker 7: for Australia. Obviously we prioritize the interests of regional Australia.
• 13:28
  Speaker 7: I mean, how much more do we have to lose
• 13:30
  Speaker 7: of our industrial capacity at manufacturing strength before we do
• 13:33
  Speaker 7: reflect on weather? It is the best idea to almost
• 13:36
  Speaker 7: interlaterally decide to change how we produce food, transport goods
• 13:41
  Speaker 7: and people and of course make electricity in just a generation.
• 13:45
  Speaker 7: That's what zero emissions goal calls for, and hardly any
• 13:49
  Speaker 7: other country in the world is doing this. I think
• 13:51
  Speaker 7: that issue is the fundamental one we need to discuss
• 13:54
  Speaker 7: right now, and not being in a coational agreement perhaps
• 13:56
  Speaker 7: makes it simpler for the Nationals Party to focus on
• 13:58
  Speaker 7: what we think is best. Put that case forward and
• 14:01
  Speaker 7: then we'll see. We'll see how we go fighting for it,
• 14:04
  Speaker 7: and if we do come to a different decision, and
• 14:07
  Speaker 7: I think it's important for this rang people have a
• 14:09
  Speaker 7: choice on something as fundamental like this.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: I also suspect that this is in part a warning
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: shot to the coalition not to make a decision, particularly
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: on nuclear, that then you can't agree with to come
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: together before the election. Is that how you see it?
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: And do you expect now the Liberals to finally agree
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to your eventually agree to your demands and join again
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: in a coalition with the Nationals before the election.
• 14:40
  Speaker 7: Look, it's a good point, Andrew. I think that decision
• 14:43
  Speaker 7: will probably be out of the hands of the parliamentarians
• 14:45
  Speaker 7: and up to the people. I think what's going to
• 14:47
  Speaker 7: happen now is we'll see how our members of both
• 14:50
  Speaker 7: political parties and how the people react to the situation.
• 14:54
  Speaker 7: So far, at least, there's been a groundswell of support
• 14:56
  Speaker 7: for our decision. My office has been inundated with calls
• 14:59
  Speaker 7: from members of both the Liberal and Nationals Party supporting
• 15:01
  Speaker 7: what we're doing, supporting the strong policy stances we are taking.
• 15:04
  Speaker 7: And so I think it's over the people, it's over
• 15:06
  Speaker 7: your viewers. If you support the National's Party, support us
• 15:10
  Speaker 7: continuing a nuclear, support us opening a question up about
• 15:14
  Speaker 7: NTSERA missions. We'll get on to your local members of Parliament,
• 15:17
  Speaker 7: be they National Liberal Party members. That pressure will probably
• 15:20
  Speaker 7: have an influence over time. It has in before when
• 15:23
  Speaker 7: we've had decisions before us, like the carbon tax and
• 15:26
  Speaker 7: what have you. That pressure if that bills and if
• 15:28
  Speaker 7: we're successful at prosecuting our arguments for why we believe
• 15:32
  Speaker 7: what the Nationals are doing, fighting for our country, fighting
• 15:34
  Speaker 7: for our future, if that is what if that wins
• 15:37
  Speaker 7: in the court of public opinion, that will fly back
• 15:40
  Speaker 7: into a democratic process and the positions of all political parties.
• 15:43
  Speaker 7: So I think it's up to us to put that
• 15:46
  Speaker 7: case strongly and martial art support around the country to
• 15:48
  Speaker 7: get the change we want in our own party, in
• 15:51
  Speaker 7: other political parties, ultimately the Parliament, and ultimately to win
• 15:54
  Speaker 7: elections as well.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Mat Kenevan, thank you so much for your time. The
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: last under coalition split was in nineteen eighty seven for
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: just four months, and that was when Queensland Premier Joe
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Bilkipedison of the Nationals decided to become Prime Minister. But
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: it's Joe for PM campaign totally flopped and the Liberal
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: scott smashed, not the Hawk Labor government Labour won a
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: record number of seats, and by the end of the
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: year Biorkie Peds was even sacked as Premier by his
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: own party, joining me as the man who was then
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Liberal leader at that sorry time, John Howard, who bounced
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: back from that disaster, of course, had become our second
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: longest serving Prime minister of coalition governments. John Howard, thank
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: you very much for your time. The National today quit
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the coalition. Your reaction, I mean, they must bring back
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: some painful memories.
• 16:49
  Speaker 8: I don't compare today's situation with nineteen eighty seven, although
• 16:54
  Speaker 8: that was pretty painful. I am very sorry that this
• 16:58
  Speaker 8: has happened, and I urge both parties to work over
• 17:03
  Speaker 8: time to put the coalition back together again, because all
• 17:08
  Speaker 8: the history of Australia suggests that the glory days of
• 17:12
  Speaker 8: the Liberal Party and the National Party, the Old Country Party,
• 17:15
  Speaker 8: are when they are working together in government. I think
• 17:20
  Speaker 8: of the partnership between Menzies and Fadden, and Menzies and
• 17:24
  Speaker 8: mcureen and Fraser and Anthony, and the wonderful friendship and
• 17:28
  Speaker 8: partnership I had with Tim Fisher and John Anderson.
• 17:32
  Speaker 9: Who I don't think I've met a more honorable person
• 17:35
  Speaker 9: in public life than John and Mark Vail. There was
• 17:38
  Speaker 9: complete trust.
• 17:39
  Speaker 8: We had our policy differences, but the way to resolve
• 17:43
  Speaker 8: policy differences between the Liberal Party and the National Party.
• 17:47
  Speaker 9: Is within the framework of the coalition.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: John Howard, it seems that Susan Lee, the Liberal leader,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: actually did tell the Nationals that if she was given
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: more time, the Liberals could probably agree to all their forms,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: including nuclear power. Should the Nationals have agreed to give
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: them that time rather than the pulled a pin this quickly.
• 18:07
  Speaker 8: Well, and I won't pretend that I know the detail
• 18:12
  Speaker 8: of all of the discussions between the two of them,
• 18:15
  Speaker 8: so I think I'll take a bit of a pass
• 18:18
  Speaker 8: on that question.
• 18:19
  Speaker 9: I will say this though, that my.
• 18:21
  Speaker 8: Experience as a Liberal leader and as a coalition prime
• 18:25
  Speaker 8: minister is that if you have a strong coalition and
• 18:30
  Speaker 8: plenty of trust, you can resolve any policy difference.
• 18:34
  Speaker 9: You never get everything you want.
• 18:36
  Speaker 8: I mean, I used to say to some of my
• 18:38
  Speaker 8: Liberal colleagues who complained that I was being a bit
• 18:42
  Speaker 8: generous to the National Party, I say, well, in a partnership,
• 18:46
  Speaker 8: the numerically smaller part, and that's always the National Party
• 18:50
  Speaker 8: is entitled to have some wins.
• 18:52
  Speaker 9: But that's the nature of the political game.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: I just wonder if this is this could be not
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: as disastrous as some people are saying, provided there is
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: a healing relatively soon. Given this, that the Nationals have
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: given the Liberals an ultimatum an important line, stick with
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: nuclear in particular, or else there is no deal, there
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: can be no deal. And if the Liberals do do that,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: I think they'll have the right policy then. But then
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: there can be a coming together after that. But if
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the Liberals went ahead and said no to nuclear, there
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: couldn't be.
• 19:39
  Speaker 8: Well, Andrew, I'm in furious agreement with you about nuclear power.
• 19:43
  Speaker 8: I think it's part of the ultimate solution, and I
• 19:48
  Speaker 8: hope fervently that the Liberal Party sticks completely to its
• 19:54
  Speaker 8: nuclear apology. I mean that doesn't mean to say you
• 19:56
  Speaker 8: can have a nuance here and there, but fundamental it's
• 20:00
  Speaker 8: part of the long term solution. The other issues, well,
• 20:04
  Speaker 8: I'm a bit of a skeptic about net zero, but
• 20:07
  Speaker 8: I don't have a vote in these things anymore, and I.
• 20:10
  Speaker 9: Haven't been in office for a long time.
• 20:13
  Speaker 8: But once again, these are things best thrashed out in
• 20:18
  Speaker 8: the framework of a coalition. If you go your separate
• 20:22
  Speaker 8: ways because of policy differences, which in the end are
• 20:29
  Speaker 8: not impossible to solve. You will only harden your different
• 20:34
  Speaker 8: views and that will make the element coming together more
• 20:37
  Speaker 8: difficult and more challenging.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: If this coalition is not fixed and relatively soon, what
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: do you expect to happen to the Liberals, particularly in
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: an election.
• 20:47
  Speaker 9: Well, we've just had an election.
• 20:49
  Speaker 8: So when I was elected in ninety six and the
• 20:53
  Speaker 8: coalitionion won in ninety six, we had a huge majority.
• 20:57
  Speaker 8: And interestingly, in the context of the current debate, the
• 21:01
  Speaker 8: Liberal Party could have governed in its own right, and
• 21:04
  Speaker 8: some not many, but some Liberals urged that happened, and
• 21:08
  Speaker 8: I said no. I said I had campaigned with Tim
• 21:11
  Speaker 8: Fisher as a coalition and we were going to stick
• 21:16
  Speaker 8: to it. And what was more, I knew that at
• 21:18
  Speaker 8: the next election we wouldn't be able to govern in our.
• 21:21
  Speaker 9: Own right, and we do this as the board of
• 21:23
  Speaker 9: the Nationals.
• 21:23
  Speaker 8: And that, of course proved to be the case, because
• 21:27
  Speaker 8: we lost a lot of seats in ninety eight because
• 21:30
  Speaker 8: we were proposing a big tax plan and that was
• 21:33
  Speaker 8: always controversial. But interestingly enough, within a few weeks of
• 21:41
  Speaker 8: that decision of mine to renew the coalition, we had
• 21:46
  Speaker 8: the port Arthur Gunn disaster, terrible murder of thirty five people,
• 21:52
  Speaker 8: and we introduced those radical gun laws.
• 21:55
  Speaker 9: Now they were tough.
• 21:56
  Speaker 8: Laws for a lot of National Party supporter is very tough.
• 22:02
  Speaker 8: The leaders of the National Party, Tim Fisher, John Anders
• 22:05
  Speaker 8: and Rob borbige Is the Premier of Queensland.
• 22:09
  Speaker 9: They stuck by the coalition in a sense.
• 22:12
  Speaker 8: They repaid the loyalty they'd been shown at the time
• 22:16
  Speaker 8: of the election.
• 22:17
  Speaker 9: And it drove home to me.
• 22:19
  Speaker 8: That a coalition works best when there's a spirit of
• 22:22
  Speaker 8: give and take. And I hope that the president ombership
• 22:26
  Speaker 8: of the two parties will adopt the same attitude.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: John Howard, thank you very much for your time.
• 22:32
  Speaker 9: Thank you.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: After the break, Donald Trump spends two hours trying to
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: talk Vladimir Putin into a cease fire, but still gets
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: the big Yet, why doesn't he get the fact that
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Putin is playing him? What will it take for Donald
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Trump to admit that leading me Putin is giving him
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: the back of his hand? The US President yesterday ranged
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: the Russian one for more than two hours to try
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: to talk Putin into agreeing to the ceasefire plan in
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Ukraine that Trump proposed two months ago. In which Ukraine
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: has already agreed to. Trump lady claimed, oh, this call
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: went very well, and Russian and Ukraine start right away
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: to negotiate to end the war. But Putin said, actually,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: he'd agreed only to negotiate on how to negotiate a
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: possible ceasefire. I mean, just listened to him, obviously stalling.
• 23:37
  Speaker 10: President pretty log not Mimarando Mondor was a no go
• 23:53
  Speaker 10: so pretty millinium past. What were you doing was a
• 24:01
  Speaker 10: gun mir Melissa.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Gluecher blah blah blah, including a possible cease far I
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: mean seriously, but Trump still refused to get the message.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Putin is saying no to peace and he must be confronted.
• 24:23
  Speaker 8: Very big egos involved, I'll tell you big egos involved.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: But I think something's going to happen, and if it doesn't,
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: I just back away and they're going to have to
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: keep going.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Trump doesn't seem to understand how pathological Putin is. I
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: mean Putin. I once heard that the then German Chancellor
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Angela Merkel was scared of dogs after she'd been bitten
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: by one, so he released his own dog to scare
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: her during one of their meetings. I mean, that is
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the kind of Man that Trump reckons is keen on peace.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Joining me is Ukraine's ambassador to Australia Vashenko, Ambassador, thank
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: you so much for your time. Is there any sign
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: that you can see that letting me Putin wants to
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: cease fire, let alone peace.
• 25:12
  Speaker 11: Oh, there is no indication whatsoever. Putting has not accepted
• 25:17
  Speaker 11: a cease fire. As you know, President Donald Trump offered
• 25:20
  Speaker 11: the cease fire back in early March. Ukrainian president accepted
• 25:25
  Speaker 11: that and Putting never agreed. And then later on just
• 25:30
  Speaker 11: more recently, European leaders, together with sexually America, have asked
• 25:35
  Speaker 11: and demanded an immediate ceas fire and conditionals is fire
• 25:38
  Speaker 11: from Putting, and he didn't do it. He said, I
• 25:40
  Speaker 11: want to negotiate directly. And this is where President Zelenski said, oh,
• 25:44
  Speaker 11: let's do it together, and let's let's do it in Turkey,
• 25:47
  Speaker 11: and President Zelenski goes to Turkey and Putting is not
• 25:50
  Speaker 11: showing up. Now after that long conversation, Putting hatle's President Trump,
• 25:55
  Speaker 11: We don't really see any indication that Putting wants to
• 25:58
  Speaker 11: end this war, that Putting actually wants to cease fire
• 26:02
  Speaker 11: and to give diplomacy a chance. And what Putin is
• 26:05
  Speaker 11: currently doing. Putin believes that time is on his side.
• 26:09
  Speaker 11: He believes that the pressure is on America, the pressure
• 26:12
  Speaker 11: is on Ukraine, the pressures in Europe. But he feels
• 26:15
  Speaker 11: he has got an apprehend and he is keep on going.
• 26:20
  Speaker 11: And if you look at the troops on the ground,
• 26:22
  Speaker 11: if you look at the messiles and drones that he's
• 26:25
  Speaker 11: sending on the daily basis, he said, he feels like
• 26:28
  Speaker 11: he is, you know, got to nap at hand at
• 26:30
  Speaker 11: the moment, and he.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Will just pursue it. I think he reckons that Trump
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: is going to get bored, He's going to have default
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: angry with Ukraine and just go away, which would suit
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Putin brilliantly. Why doesn't Trump see what you see? Would
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I see what the European leaders see? What the world see?
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: That Putin is refusing to agree to a cease fire.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: What has Putin got something on him? What's your explanation?
• 27:01
  Speaker 11: Putting is pretending he wants peace. Putting is pretending he's negotiating.
• 27:05
  Speaker 11: He's sending some of his minions to negotiations who have
• 27:08
  Speaker 11: no power whatsoever, who are coming up with some ludicrous
• 27:12
  Speaker 11: demands which they have always had for Ukraine. Basically asking
• 27:17
  Speaker 11: for Ukraine's surrender, and this is the only talks that
• 27:21
  Speaker 11: will he will he's doing now. But look, we know
• 27:24
  Speaker 11: how to deal with Russia, and I think the students
• 27:26
  Speaker 11: of Russia know it as well. It's only when Russia
• 27:29
  Speaker 11: is wicked. It's only when Russia is under enormous pressure
• 27:32
  Speaker 11: they will actually negotiate.
• 27:35
  Speaker 12: And we can do it.
• 27:36
  Speaker 11: We can do it jointly with America and Europe and
• 27:38
  Speaker 11: Australia and other countries involved, because the way to do
• 27:41
  Speaker 11: it is to actually provide more defense assistance to Ukraine,
• 27:45
  Speaker 11: more sanctions on Russia, and further isolation of Russia. I
• 27:49
  Speaker 11: mean this is that pressure, which has to be done jointly,
• 27:53
  Speaker 11: can actually force Russia into serious negotiations and negotiations where
• 27:57
  Speaker 11: we can have some tangible results. The time being, it
• 28:00
  Speaker 11: doesn't look like we're going to get there.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Look, it is also obvious. I know it's obvious. You
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: say it, I know, I agree. What I don't get
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: is why Trump doesn't see it. The American ambassador to
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Ukraine quit last month, and she's now explained why. Here
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: she is.
• 28:18
  Speaker 13: I resigned from Ukraine and also from the Foreign Service
• 28:22
  Speaker 13: because the policy since the beginning of the administration was
• 28:25
  Speaker 13: to put pressure on the victim Ukraine rather than on
• 28:28
  Speaker 13: the aggressor Russia. I fully agree that the war needs
• 28:33
  Speaker 13: to end, but I believe that peace at any price
• 28:36
  Speaker 13: is not peace at all. It's appeasement, and as we
• 28:39
  Speaker 13: know from history, appeasement only leads to more war.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Ambassador Maric F. Dushenko, why is that happening? Why do
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: you think Donald Trump still won't criticize Putin personally or
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: hit Russia with more sanctions.
• 28:56
  Speaker 11: Unfortunately, I can't really provide a comment on an a
• 28:58
  Speaker 11: Danune answer to this question. What I can tell you
• 29:02
  Speaker 11: for sure is that if Russia can get away with
• 29:06
  Speaker 11: what they're doing in Ukraine, it is really opening up
• 29:10
  Speaker 11: and a Pandora box. We've talked about it many times,
• 29:12
  Speaker 11: but we already seen how it is reverberating in different
• 29:16
  Speaker 11: parts of the world, how other dictators are just watching,
• 29:19
  Speaker 11: how this work going to end, how they can benefit
• 29:22
  Speaker 11: from the wall, and they keep on benefiting. You know,
• 29:24
  Speaker 11: there are many authoritarian leaders when not benefiting by cooperating
• 29:27
  Speaker 11: with Russia, heavily supplying Russia with weapons and in their troops.
• 29:31
  Speaker 11: They're benefiting from the Russian defense technology which they never
• 29:35
  Speaker 11: had and now they're going to have it. But apart
• 29:37
  Speaker 11: from that, I mean, we get into this post liberal
• 29:40
  Speaker 11: world kind of anyway where might is right, where liberal
• 29:45
  Speaker 11: values no longer matter, that jungle kind of where a
• 29:49
  Speaker 11: dog eats dog, and where no rules supply because only
• 29:53
  Speaker 11: a strong country, a country which is strong militarily in
• 29:56
  Speaker 11: this particular case, can actually get what it wants. So
• 30:01
  Speaker 11: in a way, rules don't matter anymore. Countries can change
• 30:04
  Speaker 11: borders and you can invade your neighbor if you have
• 30:07
  Speaker 11: more weapons. And I think this is like one of
• 30:10
  Speaker 11: those dangerous things, and especially on the side of defense
• 30:14
  Speaker 11: and nuclear weapons and non proliferation is dead at the
• 30:18
  Speaker 11: moment as we can see it because so many other
• 30:21
  Speaker 11: countries who never had nuclear weapons, and I'm so curious
• 30:23
  Speaker 11: about nuclear weapons because they see what's happening. They're thinking, Okay, look,
• 30:27
  Speaker 11: if un does not work, if rules don't work, what
• 30:31
  Speaker 11: can we do. We need to actually spend more money
• 30:33
  Speaker 11: in defense, buy more weapons, and actually get nuclear weapons,
• 30:36
  Speaker 11: because there's only protection we can get.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: We're back to nineteenth century statecraft. I'm afraid. Thank you
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: very much, Fashion Mishnishenko. Really appreciate your time. After the break,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: good news and interest rates, but one state is now
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: dragging down the country. It's a lesson on what happens
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: when you run out of money. Now, this election was
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: a brilliant one to win. The way the economy is
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: recovering today the Reserve Bank announced it second cutting interest
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: rates this year point two five basis points. The Treasurer
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: was gloating.
• 31:14
  Speaker 6: We've been able to get inflation down. We've got real
• 31:17
  Speaker 6: wages growing again and incomes. We've got the debt down,
• 31:23
  Speaker 6: interest rates are falling. Growth is recovering in our economy,
• 31:26
  Speaker 6: Unemployment is low. All of that is happening at the
• 31:28
  Speaker 6: same time.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Joining me, your SCO News Business editor Ross Greenwood, Ross Greenwood,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time. Good news for
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: borrowers today. How's the economy now looking well?
• 31:40
  Speaker 12: To be honest as you say, look, it was a
• 31:42
  Speaker 12: great election for the government to win because none have.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: They've got inflation coming.
• 31:46
  Speaker 12: Down, so that whole cost of living crisis is gradually
• 31:49
  Speaker 12: starting to disappear. Wages are rising faster than what the
• 31:53
  Speaker 12: inflation rate is and then you've got interest rates coming down. Now,
• 31:57
  Speaker 12: though Australia has to be a little careful of one thing,
• 32:00
  Speaker 12: and that is getting ahead of itself, because the Reserve
• 32:03
  Speaker 12: Bank is even itself penciled into its modeling that there's
• 32:06
  Speaker 12: another two interst rate cuts this year, and that's what
• 32:09
  Speaker 12: money markets are saying right now, but they're not promising them.
• 32:12
  Speaker 12: And the reason for that is because if all of
• 32:14
  Speaker 12: a sudden there's a big increase in our economy it
• 32:19
  Speaker 12: starts to take off, then employers the private sector are
• 32:23
  Speaker 12: going to need more workers and that could push up wages.
• 32:26
  Speaker 12: So that's the only caveat in what is a very
• 32:29
  Speaker 12: good news story for Australia's economy. Is it really up
• 32:32
  Speaker 12: until now, we've been able to manage all this. But
• 32:34
  Speaker 12: if the economy really does start to take off under
• 32:37
  Speaker 12: these lower interest rates and we need more labor than
• 32:41
  Speaker 12: under those circumstances, if we're not bring them in from overseas,
• 32:44
  Speaker 12: then wages start the rise and that could be a
• 32:47
  Speaker 12: future problem that could curb the number of interest rate
• 32:50
  Speaker 12: cuts we do see over the course of the next
• 32:52
  Speaker 12: eight ten months.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't believe how often the Reserve Bank bulletin
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: and the Reserve Bank Governor itself today was saying uncertainty, uncertainty, uncertainty, yeah,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: there's a really that much more uncertainty than before.
• 33:08
  Speaker 12: Well not at all. In fact, there's probably more certainty
• 33:11
  Speaker 12: that the economy is going to pick up because one
• 33:14
  Speaker 12: interesting little stat that I picked up today out of
• 33:17
  Speaker 12: the Commonwealth Bank, because all the banks immediately passed on
• 33:20
  Speaker 12: the interest rate cut in full, as you'd expect them
• 33:23
  Speaker 12: politically to do. But then the Commonwealth Bank said the
• 33:26
  Speaker 12: rate cut that back in February, only fourteen percent of
• 33:30
  Speaker 12: its home loan customers chose to take the extra money.
• 33:34
  Speaker 12: The other eighty six percent, so the vast majority chose
• 33:38
  Speaker 12: to keep that money inside their mortgage, effectively to pay
• 33:41
  Speaker 12: down their mortgage more quickly. They didn't need the cash.
• 33:45
  Speaker 12: So that really, to me is something of a telltale
• 33:48
  Speaker 12: sign about how robust Australia's consumer is and the whole
• 33:52
  Speaker 12: idea of lower interest rates not just to stimulate business
• 33:55
  Speaker 12: but to quite clearly get consumers going again, because they
• 33:58
  Speaker 12: represent more than fifty of Australia's economy.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Maybe also some people who are panicking a bit
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: that they don't trust for interest rates may go in
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: the future. I don't, it's true. Meanwhile, Victoria Ross, I
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: have to say, here's the state with the biggest debt
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: by far in my opinion, dragging down the country as well.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: The Labor government today handed down a budget which shows
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: net debt for a state mind you, expected to hit
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: nearly two hundred billion dollars by twenty twenty nine. Now,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: this budget claims a small surplus this year of six
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: hundred million believe it or not, thanks to increasing taxes
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: by almost one third in the five years starting last year,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: the wages built for public servants blown out, despite the
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: treasure of saying there will now be sackings this years.
• 34:51
  Speaker 14: Yes, I'm confirming around one two hundred rolls that are
• 34:57
  Speaker 14: built into this. Into the savings measures in this budget,
• 35:01
  Speaker 14: Helen's work will inform other areas of focus for government consolidation.
• 35:08
  Speaker 14: There might be some programs that she identifies that have
• 35:10
  Speaker 14: served their purpose. You can't tell me that there's not
• 35:13
  Speaker 14: some fat in there.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: So ronic ross, I mean, the Labor was savaging Peter
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Dutton not a month ago for threatening cuts and sackings.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: But now look at a labor government doing exactly that.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: But how bad is this budget or the outlook for
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: the state.
• 35:30
  Speaker 12: Well, I did a little bit of work on that
• 35:33
  Speaker 12: debt figure that you said, and as the budget says
• 35:36
  Speaker 12: that by twenty twenty eight, twenty nine, the Debton Victoria,
• 35:40
  Speaker 12: the net debt will be one hundred and ninety four
• 35:42
  Speaker 12: billion dollars. If you go back ten years from there,
• 35:46
  Speaker 12: just before the pandemic to twenty eighteen nineteen, the net
• 35:49
  Speaker 12: Detton victoria was twenty two billion dollars. So, in other words,
• 35:54
  Speaker 12: over the course of ten years, they've managed to basically
• 35:57
  Speaker 12: borrow one hundred and seventy billion dollars, which is now
• 36:01
  Speaker 12: basically clipping the amount of money that can go into
• 36:04
  Speaker 12: the hospital's public service schools, whatever it might be. So
• 36:09
  Speaker 12: now they're on notice from S and P Global Ratings,
• 36:12
  Speaker 12: the ratings agency that says, hey, you better keep this
• 36:15
  Speaker 12: fiscal discipline up. And we also notice that governments have
• 36:19
  Speaker 12: a track record basically blowing out their budgets when they
• 36:22
  Speaker 12: go into elections. So as they go into an election
• 36:26
  Speaker 12: next year, the really interesting thing is, you know that
• 36:29
  Speaker 12: for the government, the Victorian government to maintain that discipline
• 36:33
  Speaker 12: is going to be very very difficult as it tries
• 36:35
  Speaker 12: to find itself popularized and re elected. And I just
• 36:39
  Speaker 12: wonder whether the government is capable of maintaining that type
• 36:42
  Speaker 12: of discipline.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think it will be. Ross. You saw
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the federal labor government spend that drunken sailors that initially
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: thinking they might lose, and no one seems se care
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: about debt anymore. So no, that pattern will stay. I'm
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: sure Ross Green will thank you so much for your time. Okay,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: after the break. Islam on trial a court as to
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: desided if a Sydney preacher broke hate speech laws by
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: quoting Islam's sacred texts the prominent Muslims are called hate
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: preacher has just told the truth. Islam is on trial
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: in our own federal court, then this could be huge.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Wisham Handad of Bankstown Almadina Dhawar Center is being sued
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: by the Executive Council of Australian Jewy for racial discrimination
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: in various sermons where he allegedly called Jews vile and
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: treacherous people, and for sermons including this one about killing Jews.
• 37:45
  Speaker 15: Towards the end of times, when the Muslims will be
• 37:47
  Speaker 15: fighting the Jews, the trees will speak, the stone will speak,
• 37:54
  Speaker 15: and I will say, oh Muslim, oh believer, there is
• 37:56
  Speaker 15: a Yahudi behind me.
• 37:58
  Speaker 12: Come and kill him.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Had I gave another speech calling on Muslims to help
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: him fight this case.
• 38:06
  Speaker 15: We may not be able to physically go and fight
• 38:09
  Speaker 15: in Razin against Israelis who are killing our brothers and sisters,
• 38:13
  Speaker 15: well we can fight here with our worth, with our
• 38:15
  Speaker 15: money against a lobby that is fighting your Islam.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Now. Hadad is defending himself in this case on various grounds,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: including that his speeches were made reasonably and in good
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: faith and had a religious foundation. And there you go.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I have said many times here that maybe why our
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: authorities might have been so reluctant to take on such
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: preachers is exactly that this is a civil case, by
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: the way, launched by a Jewish organizations. I suspect our
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: authorities worry that hate preachers are often doing no more
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: than repeating what's in the Qur'an and other sacred books
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: of Islam as they interpret them, and censoring those preachers
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: would in effect make parts of Islamic texts unlawful. Would
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: a judge even dare do that? And that's exactly the
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: point that Hadad made last Friday.
• 39:11
  Speaker 15: Any event that the Jewish lobby are successful, there will
• 39:14
  Speaker 15: be far reaching and long lasting effects on the entire Muslim.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Community, you will not be able to quote from Kran.
• 39:20
  Speaker 15: And from the Sun without ensuring you are doing so
• 39:24
  Speaker 15: within legal parameters.
• 39:26
  Speaker 9: In the first all it's doing, all it's doing, is
• 39:30
  Speaker 9: not all it's doing. By what it's doing is speaking.
• 39:31
  Speaker 15: About the Jews, the evil of the Jews, the corruption
• 39:35
  Speaker 15: of the Jews. If the Jewish lobby is successful in
• 39:39
  Speaker 15: beating us in this court, then know that these very
• 39:42
  Speaker 15: same aas that are being quoted, when an Imam Rokativ
• 39:45
  Speaker 15: is quoting them, possibly he could also face the same
• 39:51
  Speaker 15: thing that I'm facing today.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: And sure enough, I mean you just look at one
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: of the sacred texts that I mentioned, the Sahibukhai. It
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: actually tells Muslims that very thing that the hour, the
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: hour of the last days, will not be established until
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: the fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: a Jew will be harding will say a Muslim, there
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: is a Jew haiding behind me, so kill him, although
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: some Muslims will say that's not a command but a prophecy.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: And another part of that say book that he helps
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: to explain why many Muslim jew haters called Jews rats.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: It says the prophet Muhammad said a group of Israelites
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: were lost. I do not see them except that they
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: were cursed and changed into rats. So this federal court
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: case could be huge. Will the judge actually dare say
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: to a Muslim preacher, it is unlawful for you to
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: quote those parts of Islam's most sacred texts? Joining me
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: is the panel Will Kingston, hosts of far At Will
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: of podcasts from the Spectator on politics and culture. Askin
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: your host Anika to Georgio Now with their own show
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: here every Friday at five pm. Will should a court
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: actually ever declare the quoting of a sacred text unlawful
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: on the grounds of racial discrimination?
• 41:13
  Speaker 16: No, Andrew, this case tugs out two threads in my
• 41:19
  Speaker 16: worldview which are intention with each other. I've said to
• 41:22
  Speaker 16: you on this show in the past, I don't think
• 41:25
  Speaker 16: that Islam is compatible with Western liberal democracy. I found
• 41:28
  Speaker 16: much of what that preacher just said repulsive and obviously
• 41:32
  Speaker 16: to your point, the Quran is interpreted in a particular way,
• 41:36
  Speaker 16: which is courage is extremism in the way that the
• 41:39
  Speaker 16: Torah or the Christian Bible simply does not. At the
• 41:43
  Speaker 16: same time, I'm a near free speech absolutist and to
• 41:47
  Speaker 16: the extent that the free speech should be curbed on
• 41:49
  Speaker 16: very rare occasions, for example, with respect to incitement to violence.
• 41:53
  Speaker 12: In this instance, I.
• 41:54
  Speaker 16: Don't think that meets that threshold, and I think, to
• 41:57
  Speaker 16: be honest with you, I don't think we are good
• 41:59
  Speaker 16: enough in this country arguing for free speech, even if
• 42:01
  Speaker 16: it is the free speech that we find incredibly ugly.
• 42:04
  Speaker 16: But the other thing I would say Andrew here is
• 42:06
  Speaker 16: I just don't think using the Racial Discrimination Act in
• 42:08
  Speaker 16: this way will actually have the effect of limiting or
• 42:12
  Speaker 16: reducing these sorts of instances of vile antisemitic speech. If anything,
• 42:16
  Speaker 16: when you do use the courts or you use laws
• 42:19
  Speaker 16: in a way which is trying to stop foul ideas,
• 42:22
  Speaker 16: it almost inevitably has the opposite consequence of inflaming them
• 42:26
  Speaker 16: and seeing them just pop out further in society. What
• 42:29
  Speaker 16: we need to do is what you're doing on this show.
• 42:31
  Speaker 16: We need to combat this sort of vile speech with
• 42:34
  Speaker 16: better speech. We need more people with the guts to
• 42:36
  Speaker 16: call this out in the public sphere, on TV, in pubs,
• 42:40
  Speaker 16: in the public forum. That is how we overcome this
• 42:43
  Speaker 16: sort of vile anti semitism. It isn't through the arm
• 42:46
  Speaker 16: of the courts.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Now I should add, of course, that a lot of
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Muslims will not interpret the Quran and other sacred texts
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: in the way that was her dad does. But to
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: your too, Will's point, Denik, I'm wondering whether and I
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: don't like saying this, Will, particularly if you're coming around
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: on a visit to this week, maybe a little nave
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: being young, not like me, Denika. Yes, it should be
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: open slow that we should be able to criticize, except,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: as you and I both know, there are many laws
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: restricting our freedom to do that without risking great, great
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: legal sanctions. Criticizing it is not that easy anymore.
• 43:32
  Speaker 17: But this is the exact problem. Criticizing is not that easy.
• 43:35
  Speaker 17: And I actually disagree with what Will was saying simply
• 43:38
  Speaker 17: because if hate preachers are quoting Andrew, what is in
• 43:42
  Speaker 17: the Quran or what is in other Islamic texts or
• 43:46
  Speaker 17: books for example, and you gave a really good example,
• 43:49
  Speaker 17: there any intro which say there is a Jew hiding
• 43:51
  Speaker 17: behind me, so kill him, then we've got a problem.
• 43:54
  Speaker 15: Then we've got a real.
• 43:55
  Speaker 17: Problem with the Quran, because the question has to be asked,
• 43:58
  Speaker 17: does the Quran or the Islamic techs at their core
• 44:02
  Speaker 17: actually prescribe violence, and prescribe violence against Jewish people. And
• 44:06
  Speaker 17: of course there are examples of that one such that
• 44:08
  Speaker 17: I've just given and you gave in your introduction. Now,
• 44:11
  Speaker 17: we live in a country where it is illegal to
• 44:13
  Speaker 17: incite violence, it is illegal to incite hatred, and there
• 44:17
  Speaker 17: are also laws around racial hatred which actually protects against
• 44:21
  Speaker 17: anti Semitism, for example. But I want to just give
• 44:24
  Speaker 17: it an example between say the Bible and the Quran.
• 44:28
  Speaker 17: In the Bible, there is violence. David killed Goliath with
• 44:31
  Speaker 17: a rock and a sling. But if you look at
• 44:34
  Speaker 17: the Qoran, for example, the Koran is not saying what happened.
• 44:37
  Speaker 17: The Bible tells you historically that the Qoran's not saying
• 44:39
  Speaker 17: what happened. The Koran is actually saying what you should do.
• 44:42
  Speaker 17: It's prescribing what Allah believes you should be doing. And
• 44:45
  Speaker 17: that is the problem in my view.
• 44:49
  Speaker 16: My recollection of the Bible, Andrew, my recollection of the
• 44:54
  Speaker 16: Bodley you will, yeah, let.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Me just complete something here before I let you go there,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: because there are a lot of people will say that
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: passage I quoted is not a command or an incitement.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: What it is is a prediction of what will happen
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: in the end days. Don't do it. This is what
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: will happen, although of course there are others that take
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: that much more literally. Sorry, will I cut you off?
• 45:21
  Speaker 16: No, no, no, But there are parts of the New Testament,
• 45:23
  Speaker 16: particularly which inside which could be interpreted as inciting violence,
• 45:28
  Speaker 16: particularly against minority groups, you know from memory Deuteronomy. There's
• 45:31
  Speaker 16: some particularly there are some particular things which are out
• 45:36
  Speaker 16: of step with a modern society. But as soon as
• 45:39
  Speaker 16: we start taking this approach of limiting free speech, this
• 45:41
  Speaker 16: is what will happen, because then you'll get this pushback
• 45:44
  Speaker 16: against Christians, for example, to say that you need to
• 45:46
  Speaker 16: start censoring the Bible, you'll get pushed back against the Jews.
• 45:49
  Speaker 16: So the same thing about the Tora. And that is
• 45:51
  Speaker 16: the problem when you start to limit speech. There is
• 45:54
  Speaker 16: no logical endpoint.
• 45:55
  Speaker 14: But I think there's a.
• 45:56
  Speaker 9: Big different artists jump in there.
• 45:57
  Speaker 17: There's a big difference with the Bible, though, because the
• 45:59
  Speaker 17: Bible actually talks about what has happened in a historical context,
• 46:04
  Speaker 17: whereas the Quran or other Islamic books for example, tell you.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: What you should be doing.
• 46:09
  Speaker 17: And I think that that is a very big distinction
• 46:11
  Speaker 17: between both.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Well, there's also another point of course that the violent
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: text so called in the Bible or in the Old Testament,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: and the New Testament is very definitely presented as that was.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Then this is the new preaching, as it were, and
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: there is a very much ap preaching of no violence.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: But anyway, during the election, Deanika, an eighteen year old activist,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: vandalized the officer then oppositional leader Peter Dutton. Today outside
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: court she didn't seem that sorry to me, have listen,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: this was an.
• 46:46
  Speaker 12: Active resistance and Peter Dutton does not represent us.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: And inside the court, her lawyer claimed the vandalism was
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: due to what he claimed was Peter Dutton's anti social behavior,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: particularly on the environment, on what he called the genocide
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: of Palace and the people's pitted upon's fold. Apparently, despite
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: all that, the magistrate recorded no conviction and ordered this
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: teenager to do just twenty hours of community service spread
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: over the next six months. Is that fair enough? I mean,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: I guess you was just eighteen.
• 47:16
  Speaker 17: I don't care how old she is, andrew a care
• 47:19
  Speaker 17: if she's eighteen, I don't care if she's fifty one.
• 47:20
  Speaker 17: Set a precedent, because this is what happens you let
• 47:23
  Speaker 17: them out, and we know this with for example, climate activists.
• 47:26
  Speaker 17: You let them out, they get a slap on the wrist,
• 47:27
  Speaker 17: and guess what, They're back at the next protest the
• 47:29
  Speaker 17: next week doing the exact same thing. And given that
• 47:32
  Speaker 17: she doesn't seem at all sympathetic, who's not to say
• 47:34
  Speaker 17: that she may or may not do something like this again.
• 47:37
  Speaker 17: You know, give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe
• 47:39
  Speaker 17: she has learnt from her lessons, but I have no
• 47:41
  Speaker 17: sympathy for her, and I think if we don't start
• 47:43
  Speaker 17: setting a precedent, we've got to stop dancing around these issues.
• 47:46
  Speaker 17: Lock them up and teach them a lesson, because that
• 47:49
  Speaker 17: even if you disagree with somebody, you do not go
• 47:52
  Speaker 17: and vandalize a property or anything.
• 47:54
  Speaker 16: There are ways to talk things out.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Look, I don't know that she would come in the crime,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: but I have to say, will if she's not actually
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: sorry and the punishment doesn't make her sorry? Was the
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: punishment enough? That's all I'm saying. You've got ten seconds.
• 48:14
  Speaker 16: We need to get more creative with these punishments for
• 48:16
  Speaker 16: eCos Andrews. Send them off to the coal mines to
• 48:19
  Speaker 16: work for twelve months, and I think that'll teach them
• 48:21
  Speaker 16: a lesson as well as supporting one of our great industries.
• 48:24
  Speaker 16: I think that's the real approach here.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea. Maybe I have to
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: wash other graffiti off for you know, in more than
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: twenty hours will Kingston Anika to Georgia. Thank you very
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: much to you both. That's it from me, coming up now,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: Caleb Bond