Latest / Skin Anarchy / Unboxing the Influence: How Perfume Packaging Shapes The Success of Scents with Olya Bar - E. 506

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Unboxing the Influence: How Perfume Packaging Shapes The Success of Scents with Olya Bar - E. 506 · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Diablo 4 has arrived.
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• 0:25
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• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to the show.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to mention that summer is right around the corner and still is volume 2 for Eugene magazine.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot tell you how excited I am for Eugene seriously because summer was my favorite season, has been, always will be growing up.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of it's gonna relate to that and the things that I love the most growing up because I did grow up in the White 2K kind of era.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we had the most amazing epic spreadshe in our various magazines.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking hospital, I'm talking focus, I'm talking harvest, nylon.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we had all of it.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is exactly what I wanted to bring up.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Innovation, the interactive capacities is mind-blowingly beautiful.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I really urge you guys stay tuned for it.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was got a little serious there, but um, I'm serious, like it's really cool, guys, and you know what?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: I am a huge fan of these girls.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think I saw my first ever episode.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I swear I think I decided the interview um, you know, Chris Demac, I think it was the first time.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um everybody, you don't know what you're saying.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: What about you?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: What about um is what I will be never?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: It will never be a big subscription.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: It will always be open access, and there are multiple reasons for that.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually, guys, it's a hybrid.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Cool stuff, like you know, what I just told you.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a testament to so many of the brands, a place for you to really go to curated um, you know, shopping experience when it comes to just not only the luxury security, but things that work, things that are really, really changing.
• 4:37
  unknown: And also it's a medical journal.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it has to be actually purpose creating resources by my beauty, feeling all the shopping, all the listening, everything at the same time.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Go back and forth.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can't I just I can't tell you like all the actually by the way.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is another Fragrance Friday exclusive, and I am so thrilled and honored to be hosting one of my favorite people in this industry again um on the show, Olia Barr.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And this time around, Olia is going to talk to us about everything related to the packaging and the aesthetics of perfumery.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome back, Olia.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you again.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is such a pleasure to be able to speak to you.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I love everything you do in the space.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: I follow you very closely.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: You always have really in-depth conversations with uh founders and people in industry.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's truly an honor to be able to be able to speak to you today.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Olia.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: That means the world.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really excited about this topic because you know, we were just talking for everyone listening um before the episode, Olia and I were discussing her recent article that she um had written about the um, you know, the role of gender or the role, you know, just the role of gender and packaging and then all of the little nitty-gritty stuff around that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the article was just so beautifully worded, beautifully put together, Olia.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, really hats off to you for bringing that topic to the forefront.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I really want to continue that conversation with you and maybe even expand on it, you know, and bring in your expertise here because I'm not gonna lie, you know, as a consumer, I'm very confused about it as well, you know, in terms of like what are the newer generation of perfume enthusiasts?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are they looking for?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so maybe you could get us started uh by talking about the article itself, you know, and kind of shine a light on what you wrote about so that everyone listening can kind of get up to speed and we'll take it from there.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's it's a very interesting discussion that I think is really worth having because um I'm coming from the place of curiosity.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm always curious, kind of what is the consumer expecting today?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: What does the consumer want today?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: What will the consumer possibly want tomorrow?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, none of us have the crystal ball, but there are a lot of things that we can see trend wise that are kind of giving us a little bit of glimpses into what potentially um will be the future.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, it was interesting to kind of look at some of the old error kind of heritage brands that have been around for a very, very long time, um, creating packaging for many, many years, generations.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: And also a lot of these brands were dividing between uh women's and men's perfumes versus today.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: I apologize.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh oh my god, I'm gonna have to mute this.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay, hopefully we can edit this.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And uh today we're seeing consumers want really more.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: How is this still here?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: No, hold on one second.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand why I'm not on mute.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh um, I thought I'm on mute.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: How is that possible?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay, but um and uh today the consumer is you know really looking in a completely different direction.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we are no longer looking at anything as gender specific, and the terms like genderless, genderful, gender inclusive are at the forefront of conversation when it comes to every industry.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: And consumers are a bit more minimalistic in their choices of beauty, in their choices of uh fragrances, in their style, in their positioning, and many, many other things that they are kind of requiring, you know, from the brands.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we're seeing a really big change in how brands um position their whole packaging design, because of course, what we first see is the package.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: And whether we see it online, whether we see it in real life, um, that is what either kind of attracts us immediately to something.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's by the way, uh, safe to say, probably across all industries, even food.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: You you're you see something patched in a really um cute way or whatever appealing to you um way.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden you're now picking up a whole bunch of candies or whatever it is, vitamins, supplements that you didn't really think you needed yesterday, and all of a sudden you're attracted to it.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we're seeing this big change in how the consumer is um is approaching this whole packaging design and what they want and what they are very vocal about.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's interesting to see how brands are responding to this because there are brands that are going into more kind of gimmicky um directions.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, one one brand that kind of comes to mind is um uh Montclair.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure everybody is uh familiar with their jackets.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: I actually have a bottle right next to me.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when you press the button, you'll have um a little uh like a it's like a display that's in red is just gonna say Montclair and you can shut it off, you can turn it back on.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I mean, to have this, do I turn it on?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, only by accident, most of the time.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Is this something that I consider very gimmicky?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, you know, but was it attention grabbing when it's on the floor?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and then there are brands who are completely, you know, not there they don't care about this trend, this gimmicky stuff, and they're just all about the essence of creating the fragrance and overall positioning for the brand, which is all very cohesive, which is like a perfect example is House of Bo, where the founder um is all about interior design and architecture, and his bottles reflect and the caps specifically for the perfumes uh which are handcrafted by artisans in Mexico, they reflect the lines in his home, you know, that you can see when he does these masterclasses and presentations, and they reflect um a lot of the things that the brand is all about versus just kind of a fleeting fab or whatever it is, a trend that that is happening at the moment.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, and so many other brands, you know, kind of like I just recently, for example, you had just a few days ago, right?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: You had uh a podcast with um Andrea from Juice Box, a brand.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love that brand.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I love their fragrances.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Great great podcast.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: I love the conversation.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was actually in another room while you guys were recording because because we were in the office that day.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: And he he's a darling.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: I adore what you know what he has done with the brands.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, as you know, the caps they reflect the the records, you know, the vintage records.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, is it um a little bit out there in terms of like the the package isn't all colorful, and you know, there's this whole story to it, but I think in this case it reflects perfectly the essence of the brand, which is inspired by music.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, to many people, music is colorful, and these fragrances are perfectly in tune with um with the packaging, you know.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, and they're absolutely genderless.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that you can divide them.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Even the pink bottle is like it doesn't, it doesn't to me.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't yeah, it has nothing to do with gender, exactly.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I wouldn't actually agree.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think I asked him that same question too, earlier what you just mentioned here was that you know, because it's music, it's so obvious that it's genderless, you know what I mean?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have to go that extra mile to like you know explain and start from the rooftops kind of thing, you know what I mean?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like it's music, you know, everyone loves music, and that's the true like that's the beauty is that the the genderless aspect is in their messaging, it's in their vision, you know what I mean?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I I hear you there for sure.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, yeah, exactly.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's it's really refreshing to see a lot of brands today.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, they're not I mean, look, I think that there are there are two sides um to every story because there are brands who have been designed for many, many years and it's because their consumer was often asking, is this for a man?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's not, like it's it's usually by the way, men that ask, is this you know designed for a man?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Can I use this?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: You rarely see a woman pick up a bottle and say, Is this for woman?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, open to this, you know.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that there was this was mostly driven by the fact that, you know, men for many, many generations um in the past have required a very clear kind of sign that says for men, otherwise they will just not buy something.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I think a lot of this possibly came from that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but of course, today we're not seeing um this kind of division more or less.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: And even fragrances that are sometimes say poor femme or poor um, I think everybody is kind of very open to understanding that you can absolutely use it.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter you know what gender you are, it doesn't matter which age you are, doesn't matter where you come from, as long as you like the fragrance, you know, you should absolutely be free to use it, love it, enjoy it, um, and do really anything you want with it.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, but you know, it's also about these brands who are kind of creating these really um fun packaging, like Tatiana Terenzi comes to mind, which is another brand that has these really out there bottles.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you're familiar with one of their collections, it's called the Sea Star Collection.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it they literally have a starfish, like a golden plated starfish on top of every bottle.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it represents the story of the founders, which are brother and sister.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they are, you know, they have these memories associated with being on their family boat and kind of grown up and spending all these beautiful childhood um memories and moments there.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that collection reflects that.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, they're made to be specifically plated in a specific way so they don't tarnish if you do end up keeping it on your yacht.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: I said, well, it's nice if you have a yacht to keep this beautiful$700.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: But this is definitely the opposite of minimalism.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that there is place and time for both because I don't think it would be um ideal if we had every single brand go into this completely like minimalist, like clean route where we only have like a simple bottle and a simple label.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think there needs to be variety, just like anything else.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's kind of to me that it's really about options and it depends on what you like.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I have um like Parfums de Marley bottles that are, you know, we have the very kind of whimsical bottles that are almost like representing of a female body, you know, with those hips and kind of it's it's this very whimsical collection.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's the the more the masculine line with the horses on it, and it's like this kind of flask looking of a bottle.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: Very beautiful.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So there's really it's just about what is it that you want to see on your shelf?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are you putting these fragrances out for display?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's another thing.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are you using them as part of the decor?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I guess what is it that you want as a consumer?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then you have the options to go and get whatever it is that that you desire.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I love how you know you gave us such wonderful examples.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I really, really believe in the power of vision and just that, you know, senses in general, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we're when we talk about perfumery and fragrance, as you know, it's all about the senses, it's all about this immersion of your senses in the experience of that fragrance.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I fully understand and I get behind brands that are, you know, they're trying to bring all of those senses together in their appeal, you know, whether that's the you know, your vision in terms of design, whether that's obviously the sense of smell, you know, sense of feel, everything, right?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sound, feeling everything.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing I never understand is why we have to put boxes, you know what I mean?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I feel like that we see that a lot in in older, you know, generations where we like you said, we're either putting things in this isn't for men or this is for women.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like nowadays it's gotten even more confusing, if I'm very honest with you, you know what I mean?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, I still have male friends that will ask me, Well, actually, you host a podcast.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have experts on all the time.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a perfume or a cologne that I could, you know, they still use that terminology.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, men still think that a cologne implies that it's for men.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they still believe in this.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, it's so hard to give recommendations, especially for me.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not you, I you know, if I had your brain, oh yeah, I could, I'm sure I could give them great recommendations off the bat, but at the end of the day, I'm just a normal consumer.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and for me, even I sit there and I think, I'm like, well, what resonates with you?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then and just asking that question alone, um, going back to your point about, you know, the men versus women, where we see the stuff the most, a lot of men get turned away by just the question because they don't want to have to do that extra homework.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what's interesting, Oya, is that what you had said, I actually was talking to Mark Natowski a while ago, who was the creator of Bombshell, the caresaker bombshell, and he was talking about the um packaging of Bombshell and how the stripes and like you know, the whole look of the perfume was designed very specifically, you know what I mean?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it was made to last for years and years to come.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look at bombshell now, we all recognize the bottom, you know what I mean?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows what it looks like.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I as a consumer think, well, we need, I feel like a shift needs to happen or something needs to happen drastically that men stop asking these questions and just go, okay, here we go.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one perfume for me as just a you know, everyday layman consumer is um aqua de joe for men, right?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like that perfume or that scent is like every man knows about it, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, what did they do so differently, in your opinion, versus what we see now, you know, as when it comes to men.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you could comment on that a little bit.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very, very good point that you're making.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll I'll open up first with how I think we can approach this, you know, and then I'll go into what I think specifically about um that ad because that fragrance has been around for, I would say 20 years at least.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because I remember um it was already really big, you know, in the US when when I immigrated here, it was about like 21 years ago, and I remember one of my first boyfriends wore it.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that that fragrance is forever edged in my memory.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: He used to wear so much of it too that I'm like, oh, here we go.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, the funny part is that I think that the way they drove that message was with uh with advertising, and the advertising was very specific.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: It was that macho kind of man, you know, it was the the whole the whole nine yards that they always used to do with all these fragrances.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: But that one specifically, you know, I think it was also there weren't there weren't that many fragrances on a market as well.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that the competition was a lot less.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that DNA of the fragrance itself is very specific and I think easily kind of it's it's a likable type of fragrance.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's fresh, it's aromatic, it's masculine, but it's not overly heavy into spices or tobacco.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of just like right there, it sits right in the middle.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's a combination of marketing and the fragrance itself that just Appeal to many.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: But to go back to my original point, um, that I think today it's about how we approach discovery of fragrances.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a crucial point because, like you said, most people don't want to do much work.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you ask them what is it that you're looking for, they don't quite know the answer.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the consumers today, they're not educated in this field.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: They don't, they're not looking really to be educated.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: They're just looking to smell good and to keep it simple.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, a few of us are going to dive in deeper.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to, you know, do our research, build these collections, but most of the people just want to smell good, possibly collect compliments.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and really that's about it.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that when it comes down to just understanding that fundamental um drive when it comes to buying a fragrance, it's really about how do you position the whole shopping experience.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like today, instead of walking through, you know, and I think that that's where it gets a little tricky because when you walk into Macy's or Bloomingdale's and every fragrance brand has its own counter.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, the representative from that counter is going to want to tell you all about the newest launch and tell you how much you need it.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't really care what it is that you like, they just care about selling you the latest launch.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Versus when it comes to more um niche and kind of artisanal stores that are focused on these niche brands, they are more about the discovery process of what is it that truly will appeal to you, every specific consumer.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think dividing things by moods is truly one of the biggest kind of drives here, because that's something that, by the way, you know, as we spoke to you before, I think I mentioned it at Twisted Lily.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: We also have this because today it's, you know, when you go onto the website and you get overwhelmed, or whether you go into the store and you get overwhelmed by this huge amount of fragrances, how do you narrow it down?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: And truly, I think to me at least, it's about what is it that I want to feel today?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Do I want to have a fragrance that makes me feel happy and joyful and uplifted and light?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Do I want a fragrance to make me feel kind of more sensual and possibly a little bit more seductive and kind of, or do I want something that's just going to make me feel very comforted and cozy?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that these kinds of moods and adjectives, you know, when we start using them, it's much easier to navigate the person towards a specific fragrance because then we already know that, you know, a rose and vanilla combo will possibly be a very seductive one.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: We know that a sandal would, you know, in combination with musk is going to give you that coziness and it's going to give you that comforting feeling of like a cocoon around you.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: We know that things that are citruses or green kind of herbal fragrances, they're usually linked to happiness, feeling uplifted and energized.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like this is the best way to approach it, regardless of the gender, you know, because it kind of simplifies things and it makes it less about the gender or the tag or even the bottle, and more about what is this fragrance going to make you feel?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: How is it going to change your day?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you're feeling moody and gloomy, is this fragrance going to be able to instantly make you feel uplifted and good?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we know that the fragrances have the power to do that, but it's just about kind of what's the right prescription, so to say, for you, you know, and I find that approach a lot easier because it's believe it or not, till this day, just like you get those questions, I get them to a lot of the DMs, or if I ever start conversations with people just uh, you know, in real life, uh, around anywhere I am, people go, Oh, so is this a cologne for men?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Or wait, so you said you carry all perfumes.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that means there's nothing there for me, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, I put the smile onto my face.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: But this is where I kind of get into, you know, just explaining that a perfume cologne is just the concentration.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a whole world beyond that that we can really explore without feeling tied down to um a packaging design, even or anything else.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the end of the day, I always say if you really truly love the fragrance, but you hate the packaging that it's in, like some people I remember you probably have seen those like robots by Paco Raban that they launched years ago.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's not my first choice when it comes to a fragrance bottle design.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: But hey, if you really love that fragrance, decant it into a custom decanter that you can get and then use it because at the end of the day, to me, it's about the juice, you know.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: But it definitely comes down to you know how we position the shopping and marketing and the whole experience for the consumer.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're so on the money with that, uh, you know, and and so well articulated as well.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, I I kid you not, you know, I did this little mini experiment, and I it's I don't I don't even think I can call it an experiment because N was one, okay, but like N equals one, but it was my it was my fiance, and I actually tested a few perfumes with him, right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, well, what is more appealing to you?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I basically introduced him to about four or five different scents, and it wasn't really even the scents.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I introduced him first to the packaging, and he was more inclined towards, like, for example, we were talking about architecture, right?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we're talking about lines, and so he was more inclined towards things that had more straight lines, you know, like straight, like like in terms of like the curvature, it was like, you know, he liked, for example, Verony Gabai.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I have all of her scents, right?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: He even gravitated towards her collection because he said, I really like how it's just it's simple, you know what I mean?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't overwhelm me with the packaging, it doesn't like you know, bombard me.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Another one he picked was one of my Tom Ford, you know, uh scents that I had in the collection.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he just he really liked that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what I noticed was the circular line, like the circular uh structures, he was not with it.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't like those.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's as if mentally men have, I've always said this before, and I'm gonna say it because I really believe in this.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: I obviously haven't done the neuroscience science studies or anything around it, but I really believe that men are linear thinkers.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that at the end of the day, everything revolves around, you know, is it something that's going to hit home?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, like the advertising of it has to hit home, you know, it has to be very clear cut and like in a way straightforward for them.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with packaging, especially like if you have all the frills and furs in your packaging, most likely, I mean, this is just my hypothesis, but most likely men are not going to be, they're not, they just don't have the patience, I feel like sometimes, you know, they're not gonna be sitting there wanting to press the button or like wanting to watch the robot or you know, whatever it may be.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's more about, like you said, the experience, the juice, you know, what is in there?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: What does it make them smell like?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for a lot of men, I know many of my male friends that just don't even wear a scent.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, why, well, why do you choose not to?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, Well, I mean, deodorant's just easy.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's their answer.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is like deodorant is just easy.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, I mean, what's you know, what's complicated about a scent?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't you just spray something?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, well, it's just so they they get overwhelmed from my experience as a consumer and just talking to them, they get overwhelmed by the whole nine yards of like figuring out, you know, it not just is it, you know, for men or for women, but also just do I really want this on my, you know, like side table if a girl comes over, you know, do I really want to be displaying that kind of thing, right?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like for me, I think this conversation is so relevant for all of the companies out there, right?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: For the new founders out there, because you made such a good point with the mood aspect of things as well, where it's like just make a good perfume or a good scent, you know what I mean, and put it in a bottle and just try it, you know, give men an option to try it because women, we love experimenting.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, women are we're very open-minded.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying men aren't, but I think with us, we have vanities, you know what I mean?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: We've got powder rooms, we've got all these beautiful spaces, you know, that we put all of our things in.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of times it's also about men with men, it's like, where do they put display their things?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: They display them in very simple places.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, for as a brand, if I were to go into perfumery and if I were to say, I want to create a brand today and I want it to be geared towards men, I think one of my biggest questions would be first of all, I would ask you, obviously, you know, like what do I do with the packaging?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: But second of all, I would be like, well, I would want something very straight line, you know, like just to the point.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, like the advertising has to be like hit it on the head kind of thing, you know.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is, yes, you can wear this as a man, you know, and this is something I noticed with JuiceBox when I was interviewing them was that the packaging, again, the same idea is there.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: The actual packaging, the top, the bottle caps are very, very awesome in that they, you know, resemble vinyl records.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: But if you look at the bottle itself, it's just a square bottle.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing crazy about it.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like off the way, you know, off the whim craziness.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that really, you know, uh, you know, makes me wonder, are we doing too much?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: And also the idea of should we start thinking as an industry along the lines of, okay, we've created the scent.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have maybe as a brand, you could create like a set of like, you know, for example, for display packaging, but then also have options where if you just like the scent itself, you can buy it in little bits, you know what I mean, in little vials that have no packaging on them.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the end of the day, I feel like men would gravitate towards that.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if they like a scent, they like a scent, they're gonna buy it.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's a very, very good point because I think that overall men definitely get intimidated by packaging and they get overwhelmed.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: They get, they just don't know.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're they're intimidated and they're literally overwhelmed.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Versus, you know, most of us were so used to being consumers and kind of are usually shopping for even the household.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Usually it's the uh by I've done I've seen a lot of research um that indicates that it's usually women, you know, who are doing majority of shopping for the household.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's interesting to see it that uh women are kind of used to this, you know, in general.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're used to all this uh whimsical packaging when it comes to makeup, variety of all kinds of things that men don't even know where goes, what's how to do with it.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but it's but it's interesting to see that given that option, for example.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, this is very interesting that you brought that up because there's a brand called Nasomato, which I'm sure you know of.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and their recent release is called Sado Maso, and it's a very controversial release because it um the cap is shaped as a penis, and it's quite interesting because it's uh you know, it's it's attention grabbing, let's just say that at least.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: And there's also an option, however, to get it as a regular cap, which would be no different from just a regular black circular cap, you know, on the same bottle.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, and I remember there was actually a brand that I used to, um, I I have quite a few of them, but it was called MDCI, and they had these gorgeous busts, like um kind of like the Greek uh or like the Roman bust on each bottle, but they were extremely expensive.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like getting a bottle without a bust, I remember, was I think about$200.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: Getting it with one was a$400-something dollars, but there was that option that was given to you.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: And as a consumer, you were able to choose.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it would be a very interesting concept if you can apply that to other brands, which A would make it more affordable for people because if they were not interested necessarily in this crazy packaging, which costs a lot of money.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's where kind of the majority, you know, for all these like really whimsical and crazy, like complicated packaging, a huge chunk of the budget goes towards that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of most of it has to be custom made.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm not even talking about like doing gold plating and things like that.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that would allow people an option in terms of what they actually want to see on their vanity.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if they wanted to save some money, and of course, if you're a collector, most of the collectors I remember from that brand, they would always go for the most expensive version with the bust.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: They made it a point to collect the whole collection.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was it was a whole thing.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I think for anyone who just liked the fragrance, and by the way, their sheepray polyton is probably one of the most extraordinary sheepray fragrances out there.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that was a beautiful scent.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you didn't have to necessarily splurge the 400-something or whatever it was.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't recall exactly.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think it's it's definitely a great option because um I think some brands really kind of go over the top.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that it's um it's great.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's definitely a place where it can and should exist, but it would be great to have an option as well.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's another reason why people go for travel sets, you know, because they're easier to afford, they're a lot less of a sizing format, which people love to play today.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like back the the days when people had one signature scent for the rest of their life are kind of more or less gone.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Today, people love the the whole concept of options.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: This is why there's so many brands, and there are more and more brands being born every single day.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you ask me, this market has exploded in the past two decades, like exploded, and it doesn't show any signs of stopping.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're looking at this whole, you know, we kind of uh have some economical issues in this country, and yet it doesn't necessarily reflect in the consumer spending on luxury good goods, which I find to be quite interesting.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like a lipstick effect, you know, during when when everything is really gloomy, women will still buy lipstick and not just woman, you know, anyone will still gravitate toward um who's interested in that, because it does make a difference.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think fragrances in a way is kind of like the new lipstick, so to say, because it can really have the power to lift you up and and you know change your mood and create an anchor for these beautiful memories for you to hold on to for many years, and yeah, and having an option in terms of what is the packaging would be really interesting.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I think some brands will give us some pushback on these ideas.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know, but you know what?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're so, so, so right.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, I look at trend reports, I look at all the, you know, um the industry reports and stuff, and you're absolutely right.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when it comes to certain essentials, you could say, whether they're like cosmaceuticals, whether they're just, you know, things that just make you feel better, right?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: And this really comes back to your point that you had made about the idea of using emotions, using a feeling as your pitch point, you know, um, it's it really matters to people, you know, it's like as if we will not as human beings compromise on the things that make us feel good at the end of the day.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, I love that.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm guilty of it myself as a consumer.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: There are things in my life, well, I will never give up.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've if I want to drink a specific type of, you know, coffee every morning, I'm going to damn it, I'm gonna find a way to drink that coffee.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or if there's like a lipstick I love that's my my perfect shade of nude, I'm going to find a way to, you know, go and get that nude lipstick, you know, because at the end of the day, it's all about how we feel.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what you had said about, you know, these brands that are popping up about that are, you know, very much focused on emotions.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, the best one that comes to mind for me is Emotiv.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love their line.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: I interviewed the founder.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, their perfumes are literally labeled like joy or cozy or, you know, that kind of stuff.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the adjectives really do vibe with me, you know, and I feel like we are getting to that point where, like, you know, as you had mentioned, where it's like you have to really figure out what you are looking for in a perfume.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think back in like, you know, when I was growing up in you know, the 90s and early 2000s, it was very much about what was the it girl, you know, wearing, what was she wearing, you know, who was who was the perfumer?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was all about luxury brands as well.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was about, um, for example, like Armani and Versace and all of these big names, right?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: And like just getting your hands on, for example, I remember the first perfume I fell in love with, I think I told you when we first spoke was uh Versace's Yellow Diamond.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that was my favorite perfume of all time.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was like I wore it everywhere.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Same with romance by Ralph Lawrence, same with you know, the Victoria's Secrets, very sexy, like those kind of scents.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, I'm not gonna lie to you, I back then as a consumer, it was about, well, where is this from?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Who made this?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like whose name is behind this?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so now that we have more options, it really makes you wonder, you know, what is what really is driving that consumer at this point?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because let's be honest, you know, perfume talk is blowing up, guys.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's been blown up.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't tell you how many people, you know, oh yeah, it was funny.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's a funny story I have for you.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a woman had reached out to me.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, you know, I'm the new expert on TikTok for perfumery.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, honey, that's cute, you know.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's like everybody's a self-proclaimed expert, is my point, right?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have this emergence of just so many different niches of perfumery now where this kind of conversation really matters because you are seeing an overlap in things like packaging.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are just certain things you can't get over, you know, and again, referencing Mark Nutowski again, we had had a very similar conversation in terms of how many different times can you really create a jasmine perfume?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: How many different times can you really create something with sandalwood or a vanilla note in it?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really comes down to creativity.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then I feel like a lot of times what happens is because that creativity might not lacking, but it may be a little redundant, we turn to the packaging for that appeal, you know?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where I think packaging really, really comes to play because a lot of times, I'm not gonna lie to you, there are women out there that have, you know, 20 fragrances that they're all vanilla, and the only difference is they're packaging.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's it, you know?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I love that you brought um you brought up MOT because I literally just ended up um doing the photo shoot yesterday over the weekend with that fragrance, and I've had the pleasure to spend like the last um two weeks just testing out the fragrances, and I have to say that's a perfect example of, like you said, leading with moods versus, you know, um, whichever celebrity word or whoever is the big, you know, the big star that's behind it, because it's truly is about a color that is tied right away to an association to a certain state of being.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: And the fragrances are rather simple, yet each is so good, they're so good in their simplicity and just how straightforward it is.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's no, you know, hidden message, there is nothing to really uncover there.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's just what you see is what you get, and you understand that when you're gonna smell that fragrance, you're gonna be put into that state of mind, state of mood, state of being.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: And they really truly are perfectly, they perfectly embody each, you know, name that is given to the fragrance.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to say that they're priced very well, yeah.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: They're you know, they're their marketing is relatable because I think that a lot of times today, and this is a conversation I have with a lot of brands because we're seeing these uh climbing prices and they just don't see there's like no ceiling almost.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: And as much as I understand luxury and I understand the process behind it, um, a lot of it is just becoming very, very hard for the consumer to afford.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: And which is why, by the way, I think that there's this big emergence of dupes.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think that the reason for dupes are not it, it's because people will always want to smell good.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: And if there is a cheaper alternative, by the way, they will take it.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a conversation that we had before, because I am not exactly on board with dupes, yet I guess the need for them, you know, because I understand what's driving that consumer to go and get it.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because yes, if you're asking them to spend the money that they simply do not have, yet not what you're limiting them to how they should smell and feel because they are to they cannot afford it.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I understand the emergence of it.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that in a way the brands are kind of, I guess to an extent, asking for it themselves, which is, I mean, I don't know.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: I go back and forth on this, I have all these conversations and I try to kind of get deeper into understanding what's driving the consumer.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm always very curious, and hopefully you get some interesting, you know, feedback and maybe some people will share what their thoughts on this whole thing, or maybe we can do a whole separate um discussion on this.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: But it's interesting to see because you also don't see, by the way, dupes in very complex packaging.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Most dupe brands they come in very simple, you know, cheap alternatives, and they know that uh that's the only way they're probably going to be able to do it.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you're selling, if you're selling Dolce and Gabbana's light blue for$15, your packaging is not going to be anything but a glass bottle and you know, the actual juice in it, like you said, you know, it's it's not what exactly.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you are so right about that.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that actually, I'm so aligned with you on that with the dupe thing, because here's my thing, and no hate towards anybody.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: I respect every brand founder because I know it's a really long journey, guys.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: But here's my thing if you don't have, if you're gonna copy somebody, don't Do that, just don't copy people, you know what I mean?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Just just make your own thing.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: But my my my real message to the brands is like you have to protect your intellectual property at one point as perfumers, you know what I mean?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like at one point you have to really say, like, okay, screw the packaging if it's not selling, you know what I mean?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: If we're not getting units out the door, like like you know, every second we're selling, like, you know, how some skincare brands say that every second we sell a bottle of our lotion or something, right?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you're not doing that, and if if it's becoming an issue where people can't buy your perfume because the packaging itself is so expensive for you to produce, then you really need to rethink it.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like Olia said, like, I mean, we all think that, right?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think at this point is that if I want the real stuff, I'm gonna be honest, as a consumer, if I want something made by XYZ brand because I believe in them and I believe in their creativity and I believe in the people that they utilize to create their perfumes, to create the ads, to create the whole team, then I want my money to go to them.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: I want to support them as a brand.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to support brand, um, you know, uh WX, whatever, because they're creating a cheaper alternative to the same scent.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: That actually hurts me as a consumer because my doll, I want to vote with my dollars, but I can't do that if you make your perfume price point a thousand dollars.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do that, you know.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where it's like, yeah, like I feel like there's a lot of exploring that needs to be done in terms of marketing for perfume brands because hey, let's be honest, you know, there's a lot of really great brands out there and you guys are doing it right.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing you might not be doing right is focusing too heavily on the packaging.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm all for gold-platedness here.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you don't get me wrong, I love gold, okay.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if your perfume bottle is a thousand dollars, guys, I don't know.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: I might have to pass on that, you know, and and that's unfortunate because as a consumer, I would probably love your love your fragrance, but I probably wouldn't be able to buy it because it's fifteen hundred dollars.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, yeah, yeah, it's just about yeah, the interesting part, the interesting part is that that you brought up is that there's definitely some protection that's also needed um for, and that's like that's a very big conversation, by the way.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Christophe Lautermiel would probably be uh one of the most outspoken figures in the business in the entire fragrance industry who has been bringing this issue up to um like throwing it in people's faces and being very loud about it, and for a good reason, because um there's still no protection for perfumers for the formulas.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that blows my mind because you know, for and this is why you have all these dupes that are basically identical.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you're you're never gonna have the same ingredients because, of course, these brands have access to a much higher quality ingredients, however, you know, the formula can be replicated, and the fact that there are no laws currently in place and that maybe the industry isn't really fighting hard enough, um, because I think it's a collective thing that needs to be really fought together as an industry in order for anything to change.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, in fashion, as we know, designs can be protect protected.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you know, we have and we see the whole emergence of fast fashion for the past what is it, like 15, 20 years, which are they found a way around it by changing what is it by law, you have to change 30% of the design, I believe.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, to be able to put on the market, and this is what all these fast fashion brands have basically monetized on.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: This is the reason why they're in existence today, but they still have to make changes, so they're they're not able to replicate the design that they see on a runaway from you know, um, an couture collection, you know, designer or whatever brands, and just you know, create an identical version.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: They will still still have to make changes.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe if that was in place for perfumes, they would still, but this is a much bigger conversation.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's really worth having.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, but I do think that this is something that we can put we will potentially see brands getting more involved in, as maybe only when they will get really hurt by these other emerging brands.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that change will not happen until they're seeing a drop in in sales.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: And once these pockets hurt, maybe at this point people will start, you know, this whole industry will start gearing up to you know to fight this battle and and to change things because obviously there there should be things in place and laws in place.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that's like the next big step for this industry collectively, you know, to really focus on that because it's not um it's it's not right, you know, and yeah.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, but that's like a much bigger conversation.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, for sure.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: Christophe Lautermiel, he's he's a genius.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, consider him an amazing person, and he is, but he has been so outspoken and you know, he almost he doesn't speak, he screams about this issue, basically.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: So people would listen because I think most people just take kind of the easy route and they go, Yeah, yeah, you know, but they don't really uh take this into account, but it is a very big um conversation, you know.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it's a it's a huge conversation, I agree.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that uh I love that you mentioned I'm gonna reach out to him actually and probably see if he he would consider coming on because I think it's a very important topic.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think of people who I've even just the few people I've had the honor of interviewing that um are more so towards the actual perfumery side, like they're the noses, you know what I mean?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I talk, I've spoken to them and I the I mean the amount of work and creativity and honestly just talent that goes behind creating a truly amazing scent, something that will outlast time.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is something to be applauded and protected, you know what I mean?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something to be duped, it's not something to be taken lightly, but at the same time, I will say it's not something to be also um, I I would say, you know, exaggerated in the sense of now you're putting it in a$1,500 bottle.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, because that perfumer that made that, the nose that made that scent, or this the team behind him or her, they deserve for their fragrance to go out into the world and for people to experience it.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: They deserve that.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's so many layers here, but again, with the packaging, guys, I mean, the packaging is great.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, make some great display pieces, but don't charge every customer hundreds or thousands of dollars, you know, because we can't afford it.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we are in a recession at the end of the day.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to see XYZ brand copy you?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, don't buy dupes anymore, because I always feel so guilty when I buy them.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I always feel like I'm taking money out of somebody else's pocket.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I shouldn't feel that way because even the dupes and the companies that make them, they're also brands.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like this weird double-edged sword, you know, double double-edged sword.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I I absolutely understand where you're coming from, which is why I'm always like, I'm all about having these conversations and just kind of gathering opinions from everybody, from different age groups, you know, and different cultures, because I think that everyone will see this in a slightly different way.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, maybe at some point we can figure out as an industry like a balance.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then there has to be like some boundaries, you know, and that's what I mean.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: That it would be very interesting to kind of continue these conversations with all these different people in a field, because each one can give, you know, their own little insight in this.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know that if I'm not mistaken, but one of the one of the points that Christoph always makes is that perfumer, you know, basically one thing that he kept talking about for for quite some time is that perfumers back in the day would get no recognition, you know, they would just kind of work behind closed doors, and the brands would use them, obviously, give them the brief, use their work, and then never really mention them.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: He was saying that that's not right because these perfumers should almost get like royalty, kind of similar, like artists do for their songs and things like that.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a very interesting point, even from that perspective of a perfumer, not even just the brand.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's so, like you said, there's so many different layers to this that you know, eventually we'll get to the bottom of it all.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it will take time.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can see this as an ongoing discussion for quite probably well, quite some time, definitely a few more years until I think things will potentially start kind of balancing out.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think when you have such crazy rapid growth, which is what happens to the fragrance industry, you're bound to have issues associated with it.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like everything is just kind of gonna slowly balance itself out.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's definitely something, you know, I do believe that there's place, of course, for fun packaging, but it should not cost.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it should not be like your rent, your monthly exactly.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: Next time, next time if your landlord acts for the rent, guys, just hand them your most expensive perfect ball.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and see what they say to that, because I think that some people in the industry, you know, or at least some people who are collectors, like we've all had moments where we struggled and we said, uh-oh, like we really need to cut down on the spending because it's getting out of control.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, I think it's very possible to create something stunning, to create something, I'm not saying it's cheap or uh, you know, but it's still in the range where it's, I think, accessible to some point, or at least people can save up for it as like something special, you know, or somebody can give it to you as a gift, you know, for a special occasion.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: But it's possible.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're looking at diptyque, you know, which has uh their bottles are beautiful, they are stunning.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: They have they tell a story, you know, they are they explore, you know, the dark glass, they have the clear glass.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now they have those golden bottles.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: They had the special collection of that of those red bottles.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I bought the Kyoto pretty much because of the color, because I was obsessed with the color of the bottle.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: They explore all these different things, yet they are completely unisex.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: They are you know, they they uh they explore stories of different cities and different countries, different ingredients, and it's all possible.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, they also design you know, glassware and all these different things that they decorate their stores, which is why I'm not allowed there because I just want to buy everything immediately.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, and even like brands like you're looking at brands like uh Maison Francis Gurgeon, you know, which one of my favorite brands are you know, basically the main discussion during last time, and their bottles are pretty simple, you know.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: They are pretty simple, they don't scream a particular gender, they don't scream a particular um price point ingredient.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, they're they're a little bit on the pricier side.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: I would definitely not classify, you know, Maison Francis Curgeon as uh anywhere close to like a cheapie, um, but yet they're still somewhat affordable.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: There are fragrances in their collection that are priced at like$225, you know, and they have all these different lines in there and collections.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they did an amazing job with packaging where it's clean, it's um understandable, it fits in so many different styles and and you know tastes, and it's it's something that people can, you know, buy over and over again.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think eventually, you know, we're also seeing some people creating um refillable packaging, which is another great thing.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um conversation, because I think that when you have this really intricate bottle, how much recycling can you truly do on it?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so that's another big point that I think with the movement into you know, with the whole sustainability movement, which is becoming at the forefront of every conversation and has been already for quite some time, things that are more simple and things that are cleaner and cleaner lines, easier designs, not that many materials used perhaps in in the design of each bottle, they make it, you know, they make that option possible.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then recycling is is a huge thing.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that we're moving in the right direction.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think some people, some brands are obviously, especially brands that are kind of just starting out right now, they already know how to start kind of on the right foot.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: But some brands that have been around for many, many years, I think it's hard for them to also um do this complete rebranding because from the branding position, if it's if it's taking you years to to build that um recognition, that following, it's it's gonna take some time to maneuver, you know, to a different direction.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't expect, I guess, some of these brands to do a whole 180 um because anything drastic will definitely affect uh their sales and how the consumer perceives them because you know we all know that people are kind of stuck in their own ways.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it definitely takes some time.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think some brands are gonna, you know, slowly start turning around.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: And brands that are not gonna be able to get on board, they're just probably gonna be obsolete at some point.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just kind of natural process of selection.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's no, you're so right.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's become it's gonna become like you know, natural selection and people are gonna get left behind if they don't move with the times, you know.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's I really, really believe in that as well.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that as consumers, we are becoming, I mean, at that same time, you know, what you had said, like we won't compromise on certain things, but there is a limit to that.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's not to be taken for granted either.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Not saying that any brands are doing that, but you know, if you know that people love your fragrance and they love something that you've priced at$400, maybe think about making it$300, you know, maybe maybe think about like what can you do on your side to cut costs, you know, and and make it so that everybody, more people can export because you're not gonna lose out, you're not gonna lose profits if you do that.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you're gonna make it more accessible and more people are gonna be able to buy your fragrance, you know, at that lower price point.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's definitely something to think about.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, like you said earlier, I completely agree.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very multi-layered conversation, but I'm so thankful to you for coming on and starting this conversation off because it's so, so important.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: And especially now, as you said, you know, we're really moving fast in the industry, you know, every day something new pops up, whether it's a brand, whether it's a self-proclaimed expert on TikTok, you know.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's it's a very important conversation.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I really, really thank you and I applaud you for being so knowledgeable and and you know, just really guide being a guiding light here because we need that, you know, we really need that in this industry.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: And also I want to mention before we go here, for everyone listening, Olia has a beautiful blog on Twisted Lily, and she just, I mean, her articles are top tier, guys.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you really want to learn about fragrance, you have to go check out her blog.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like just make it a part of your daily read, especially if you're a perfume enthusiast, you love learning about the newest scents or even scents and topics that you don't know much about.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: She's always got something really cool on there.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I really, really urge you guys check that blog out because it's it's phenomenal.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for so, you know, for so many kind words for you know truly asking the right questions and and really inviting me because it's um it's such an amazing journey.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: Ever since we met, I feel like we have all these really truly meaningful conversations and you do an amazing, amazing job with your blog.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you so much.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I definitely try to create really fun content, you know, whether it's via email, um, blog or my own content, you know, my own channel.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like I always try to um keep it fun and keep it educational, but yet not too serious, because at the end of the day, it's just perfume.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just perfume.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: But you make it really, really fun.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I would say that I think everyone who anyone who's a reader, just anyone in general, go go check out her blog.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: She's being modest, but I'm telling you, go check out her blog.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: All right, all yeah.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening, I'll be back next time.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
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